[Wikimedia-l] Final 2017 Brief Update - Fundraising

[Joseph Seddon]

Hey all,

For those heavy users of the English Wikipedia, you'll have noticed its
been quiet on the banner front over the last week or so. This was to give
the team a much needed and appreciated break over the Christmas period.

We'll be doing a final push over the next 24 hours and we will be running a
thank you banner campaign through the beginning of January.

From the Advancement team I would like to wish you all a happy new year for
2018 and finally offer my genuine thanks to the numerous community members
and staff from other departments who have afforded us their time, ideas and
support throughout 2017.

See you on the other side!

-- 
Seddon

*Community and Audience Engagement Associate*
*Advancement (Fundraising), Wikimedia Foundation*
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Welcome messages at arwiki

[quiddity]

On Sat, Dec 30, 2017 at 8:08 AM, John Erling Blad  wrote:
> As I recall, communication with newcomers by templates was found to be a
> negative factor.
>

The results from past research are Not easy to summarize, and
definitely not that simple, because of all the varying factors in both
the templates and the research projects.
E.g. message-length/-linkcount/-tone/-formatting (all of which slowly
change over the years), the reason/timing for receiving a welcome
(account-creation, first-edit, random edit, time-after-event), whether
anything else was communicated around the same time (e.g. additional
warning templates) on the same page or elsewhere, whether the welcome
was personalized at all, what username it was signed with (a human
name in my language, a funny avatar name, a generic bot-name, etc),
etc -- all of which can be different (subtly or significantly) at
every project and every instance).
Some relevant links include:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:New_editor_welcome_wishlist#Results_and_discussion
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Template_A/B_testing/Results#Welcome_messages
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Rhetoric_of_the_welcome_message
but there are many more formal and informal attempts to understand and
improve it all (from Enwiki's Teahouse initiatives, to all the
scattered multilingual template_talk and wikiproject discussions (from
Q6137590, to all the topic-specific wikiprojects)).

TL;DR: Onboarding is complicated.
Many people are helped by welcome messages.
Many welcome messages are (or were) imperfect (too
long/dense/formal/informal/irrelevant/technical/etc).
I do not know if there is any specific research that focuses purely on
the timing (whether it is best to send at account-creation, after
first-edit, after human-review of an edit, whilst the user is
logged-in or offline, etc), but I agree it might be useful.

Here are some of the other research projects that look at welcome
templates as one of the factors, but not the primary focus,
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:New_user_help_requests/Full_report
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Ignored_period_and_retention
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Framing_Support_for_Newcomers
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Alternative_lifecycles_of_new_users

Lastly, regarding the specific instance of Arwiki
- it's better than nothing, because some people will Not edit until
given some encouragement, and some people like to read the rules
before they start something.
- It would be good if the bot could distinguish between
accounts-made-locally (i.e. likely to be able to read Arabic) vs
accounts-attached-via-Single-User-Login (and to only send those latter
accounts a welcome message, after they've made 1 edit locally). I
don't know if that is currently possible or feasible.

Quiddity

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Welcome messages at arwiki

[Richard Farmbrough]

There are many million users registered in central auth.  Most have not
edited anywhere, and never even visited ar.wikipedia.org. welcoming these
is actually harmful in a demonstrable way: readers will be notified of this
useless welcome by email,  or the notification tool. If this were
multiplied across our

On 29 Dec 2017 10:20, "Vi to"  wrote:

> I can estimate the number of welcomes I received to roughly 300, most of
> these languages I cannot even copypaste from.
> While these messages are useless for sure I don't see any reason to be
> bothered of them.
>
> Vito
>
> 2017-12-29 10:25 GMT+01:00 K. Peachey :
>
> > Have you asked the user how the finding the users?
> > Have you considered other steps than just jumping to mailing list?
> > Where are the complaints from the other users to show this is a long
> > running issue?
> >
> > On 29 December 2017 at 19:20, John Erling Blad  wrote:
> > > Users on other projects are complaining about the welcome messages at
> > > arwiki. A bot at that project are welcoming people that has no activity
> > at
> > > that project at all. The bot operator claims the activity is valid,
> but I
> > > can't see that this is a well-behaving bot at all.[1]
> > >
> > > I suspect the bot is welcoming every user it can find, but using user
> > > accounts from central login and not users that has local contributions
> at
> > > arwiki.
> > >
> > > Can someone shut down the bot until the user fix the spam problem.
> > >
> > > [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Meno25#Welcome_messages
> > > ___
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> > 
> >
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Welcome messages at arwiki

[John Erling Blad]

Norwegians in general does not use welcoming phrases unless you are family,
close friend, or want something from a person. Or as friend said it; you
welcome your sister and mother to the family party, the guy that shall buy
your old rusty car, and your girlfriend when she comes over and you want to
have sex with her.

Jevlad

 lør. 30. des. 2017, 13.00 skrev Amir E. Aharoni <
amir.ahar...@mail.huji.ac.il>:

> Oh, I absolutely agree that there is an important cultural aspect here.
> That's why towards the end of the email I acknowledged that this has been
> done for many years.
>
> Nevertheless, it's worth occasionally stopping and thinking about the
> usefulness. These messages are supposed to be sent to new users, but the
> culture we're talking about is the culture of new users; and at the same
> time, we're often saying that many new users have a hard time getting into
> Wikipedia. So the welcome templates may—or may not—be part of this problem.
> This is just one example of a question worth asking.
>
> בתאריך 30 בדצמ׳ 2017 11:38,‏ "Ting Chen"  כתב:
>
> > Hello Amir,
> >
> >
> > I think what you are questioning is right. And it is necessary to ask
> such
> > questions. In my day job it is my duty to ask and discuss such questions
> > with my customers.
> >
> >
> > But, with the time I sort of see that these pure utilitarian questions
> are
> > not the only questions that we need to consider. I start to ask questions
> > that are beyond or below (according to the perspective) these pure
> > utilitarian questions. I find the answer Meno25 gave on Meta a very
> > interesting one in this respect. In his answer he was not arguing about
> if
> > the welcome-bot is useful or meaningful. He said it is their custom to do
> > so. What he is pointing to is culture. See, why do we hug, shake hands,
> > nod, or rub noses, or kiss? From a pure utilitarian point of view these
> > behaviors are not only meaningless, they are even potentially dangerous
> for
> > our health. If we just want to meet other people and talk to them why do
> we
> > not just directly talk about what we want to talk about and make it
> behind
> > us?
> >
> >
> > And this is why in my opinion it is good that every project has its own
> > way to handle welcome message: Because the welcome message is not only a
> > utilitarian thing, there is culture beyond or below it. There is culture
> > encompassed from the societies where the project community is embedded in
> > and there is culture that was created and developed by the project
> > community.
> >
> >
> > This is why in my opinion as long as the message is not malicious how
> > every community handles this is their own thing.
> >
> >
> > Greetings
> >
> > Ting
> >
> >
> >
> > Am 30.12.2017 um 09:29 schrieb Amir E. Aharoni:
> >
> >> It's a good opportunity to step back and discuss a little something.
> >>
> >> The existence of pretty much every bot is a reason to think of a missing
> >> feature in the site's software. The same goes for templates and gadgets.
> >>
> >> Why do many wikis have custom welcome templates and bots that send them?
> >> The intuitive answer is "to send a personal message to a new user", but
> if
> >> it's done by a bot, it's already not personal. What does the bot
> actually
> >> automate? The placement of a template? But what is the actual purpose of
> >> the template?
> >>
> >> Is it to say "hello and welcome"? The notifications feature already does
> >> it
> >> nicely.
> >>
> >> To send people a list of useful links? I heard many times that new users
> >> actually do find them useful, and it's a good thing. But it's
> nevertheless
> >> an anecdotal claim, and smarter questions should be asked:
> >> * How many people actually read these messages?
> >> * Are all the links useful? Do people actually click them?
> >> * Could some be removed? Could some be added?
> >> * Why is it different in every project? Could at least some parts be
> >> reused
> >> across languages in a robust and properly localizable manner?
> >> * Is the talk page really a good place to do this?
> >> * How useful is it for people for people who come from another language
> >> and
> >> have an account auto-created?
> >>
> >> And so on.
> >>
> >> Welcome templates have been a part of our sites for well over a decade,
> >> but
> >> it's never too late to ask fundamental question about what purpose do
> they
> >> serve, and how could this purpose be served better.
> >>
> >> Happy New Year :)
> >>
> >> בתאריך 29 בדצמ׳ 2017 11:21,‏ "John Erling Blad"  כתב:
> >>
> >> Users on other projects are complaining about the welcome messages at
> >>> arwiki. A bot at that project are welcoming people that has no activity
> >>> at
> >>> that project at all. The bot operator claims the activity is valid,
> but I
> >>> can't see that this is a well-behaving bot at all.[1]
> >>>
> >>> I suspect the bot is welcoming every user it can find, but using user
> >>> accounts from 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Welcome messages at arwiki

[John Erling Blad]

As I recall, communication with newcomers by templates was found to be a
negative factor.

Jeblad

Den lør. 30. des. 2017, 16.58 skrev Jonathan Cardy <
werespielchequ...@gmail.com>:

> Hi Amir,
>
> It isn't too late to ask about the utility of welcome messages, but be
> aware that there are reasons for their evolution over the last decade. Your
> email almost implied that this has been an unreviewed area  for the last
> decade.
>
> There was some research a few years ago that concluded that welcomed
> editors were more likely to stay, despite many welcomes being of the
> "welcome your article has been tagged for deletion" variety. If someone
> fancies digging further it would be good to compare welcomed  and
> unwelcomed editors among the 75% of newbies who edit existing articles and
> also among the 25% or whatever is left of that who come here to create new
> articles.
>
> I think that now would be a good time to develop tailored welcomes for
> mobile and V/E newbies. I'm conscious that the Welcome I usually use
> assumes that newbies who do good edits are using the classic editor and
> contributing with something bigger than a tablet. So sometimes I leave
> newbies unwelcomed rather than give them a potentially confusing welcome.
>
> As for getting a welcome message from a wiki where I have visited but not
> edited, I consider that a privacy violation. We normally claim not to log
> anything about our readers, but if a logged in Wikimedian visits arwiki a
> log is created artificially by issuing them a welcome. It isn't a Privacy
> violation that especially irks me personally, but if we allow it we should
> change the global privacy statements accordingly.
>
> Regards
>
> Jonathan
>
>
> > On 30 Dec 2017, at 13:38, wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org wrote:
> > Message: 4
> > Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2017 10:29:34 +0200
> > From: "Amir E. Aharoni" 
> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List 
> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Welcome messages at arwiki
> > Message-ID:
> >
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> >
> > It's a good opportunity to step back and discuss a little something.
> >
> > The existence of pretty much every bot is a reason to think of a missing
> > feature in the site's software. The same goes for templates and gadgets.
> >
> > Why do many wikis have custom welcome templates and bots that send them?
> > The intuitive answer is "to send a personal message to a new user", but
> if
> > it's done by a bot, it's already not personal. What does the bot actually
> > automate? The placement of a template? But what is the actual purpose of
> > the template?
> >
> > Is it to say "hello and welcome"? The notifications feature already does
> it
> > nicely.
> >
> > To send people a list of useful links? I heard many times that new users
> > actually do find them useful, and it's a good thing. But it's
> nevertheless
> > an anecdotal claim, and smarter questions should be asked:
> > * How many people actually read these messages?
> > * Are all the links useful? Do people actually click them?
> > * Could some be removed? Could some be added?
> > * Why is it different in every project? Could at least some parts be
> reused
> > across languages in a robust and properly localizable manner?
> > * Is the talk page really a good place to do this?
> > * How useful is it for people for people who come from another language
> and
> > have an account auto-created?
> >
> > And so on.
> >
> > Welcome templates have been a part of our sites for well over a decade,
> but
> > it's never too late to ask fundamental question about what purpose do
> they
> > serve, and how could this purpose be served better.
> >
> > Happy New Year :)
> >
> > בתאריך 29 בדצמ׳ 2017 11:21,‏ "John E
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Welcome messages at arwiki

[Jonathan Cardy]

Hi Amir,

It isn't too late to ask about the utility of welcome messages, but be aware 
that there are reasons for their evolution over the last decade. Your email 
almost implied that this has been an unreviewed area  for the last decade.

There was some research a few years ago that concluded that welcomed editors 
were more likely to stay, despite many welcomes being of the "welcome your 
article has been tagged for deletion" variety. If someone fancies digging 
further it would be good to compare welcomed  and unwelcomed editors among the 
75% of newbies who edit existing articles and also among the 25% or whatever is 
left of that who come here to create new articles.

I think that now would be a good time to develop tailored welcomes for mobile 
and V/E newbies. I'm conscious that the Welcome I usually use assumes that 
newbies who do good edits are using the classic editor and contributing with 
something bigger than a tablet. So sometimes I leave newbies unwelcomed rather 
than give them a potentially confusing welcome.

As for getting a welcome message from a wiki where I have visited but not 
edited, I consider that a privacy violation. We normally claim not to log 
anything about our readers, but if a logged in Wikimedian visits arwiki a log 
is created artificially by issuing them a welcome. It isn't a Privacy violation 
that especially irks me personally, but if we allow it we should change the 
global privacy statements accordingly.

Regards

Jonathan 


> On 30 Dec 2017, at 13:38, wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org wrote:
> Message: 4
> Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2017 10:29:34 +0200
> From: "Amir E. Aharoni" 
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List 
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Welcome messages at arwiki
> Message-ID:
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> 
> It's a good opportunity to step back and discuss a little something.
> 
> The existence of pretty much every bot is a reason to think of a missing
> feature in the site's software. The same goes for templates and gadgets.
> 
> Why do many wikis have custom welcome templates and bots that send them?
> The intuitive answer is "to send a personal message to a new user", but if
> it's done by a bot, it's already not personal. What does the bot actually
> automate? The placement of a template? But what is the actual purpose of
> the template?
> 
> Is it to say "hello and welcome"? The notifications feature already does it
> nicely.
> 
> To send people a list of useful links? I heard many times that new users
> actually do find them useful, and it's a good thing. But it's nevertheless
> an anecdotal claim, and smarter questions should be asked:
> * How many people actually read these messages?
> * Are all the links useful? Do people actually click them?
> * Could some be removed? Could some be added?
> * Why is it different in every project? Could at least some parts be reused
> across languages in a robust and properly localizable manner?
> * Is the talk page really a good place to do this?
> * How useful is it for people for people who come from another language and
> have an account auto-created?
> 
> And so on.
> 
> Welcome templates have been a part of our sites for well over a decade, but
> it's never too late to ask fundamental question about what purpose do they
> serve, and how could this purpose be served better.
> 
> Happy New Year :)
> 
> בתאריך 29 בדצמ׳ 2017 11:21,‏ "John E

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Welcome messages at arwiki

[Amir E. Aharoni]

Oh, I absolutely agree that there is an important cultural aspect here.
That's why towards the end of the email I acknowledged that this has been
done for many years.

Nevertheless, it's worth occasionally stopping and thinking about the
usefulness. These messages are supposed to be sent to new users, but the
culture we're talking about is the culture of new users; and at the same
time, we're often saying that many new users have a hard time getting into
Wikipedia. So the welcome templates may—or may not—be part of this problem.
This is just one example of a question worth asking.

בתאריך 30 בדצמ׳ 2017 11:38,‏ "Ting Chen"  כתב:

> Hello Amir,
>
>
> I think what you are questioning is right. And it is necessary to ask such
> questions. In my day job it is my duty to ask and discuss such questions
> with my customers.
>
>
> But, with the time I sort of see that these pure utilitarian questions are
> not the only questions that we need to consider. I start to ask questions
> that are beyond or below (according to the perspective) these pure
> utilitarian questions. I find the answer Meno25 gave on Meta a very
> interesting one in this respect. In his answer he was not arguing about if
> the welcome-bot is useful or meaningful. He said it is their custom to do
> so. What he is pointing to is culture. See, why do we hug, shake hands,
> nod, or rub noses, or kiss? From a pure utilitarian point of view these
> behaviors are not only meaningless, they are even potentially dangerous for
> our health. If we just want to meet other people and talk to them why do we
> not just directly talk about what we want to talk about and make it behind
> us?
>
>
> And this is why in my opinion it is good that every project has its own
> way to handle welcome message: Because the welcome message is not only a
> utilitarian thing, there is culture beyond or below it. There is culture
> encompassed from the societies where the project community is embedded in
> and there is culture that was created and developed by the project
> community.
>
>
> This is why in my opinion as long as the message is not malicious how
> every community handles this is their own thing.
>
>
> Greetings
>
> Ting
>
>
>
> Am 30.12.2017 um 09:29 schrieb Amir E. Aharoni:
>
>> It's a good opportunity to step back and discuss a little something.
>>
>> The existence of pretty much every bot is a reason to think of a missing
>> feature in the site's software. The same goes for templates and gadgets.
>>
>> Why do many wikis have custom welcome templates and bots that send them?
>> The intuitive answer is "to send a personal message to a new user", but if
>> it's done by a bot, it's already not personal. What does the bot actually
>> automate? The placement of a template? But what is the actual purpose of
>> the template?
>>
>> Is it to say "hello and welcome"? The notifications feature already does
>> it
>> nicely.
>>
>> To send people a list of useful links? I heard many times that new users
>> actually do find them useful, and it's a good thing. But it's nevertheless
>> an anecdotal claim, and smarter questions should be asked:
>> * How many people actually read these messages?
>> * Are all the links useful? Do people actually click them?
>> * Could some be removed? Could some be added?
>> * Why is it different in every project? Could at least some parts be
>> reused
>> across languages in a robust and properly localizable manner?
>> * Is the talk page really a good place to do this?
>> * How useful is it for people for people who come from another language
>> and
>> have an account auto-created?
>>
>> And so on.
>>
>> Welcome templates have been a part of our sites for well over a decade,
>> but
>> it's never too late to ask fundamental question about what purpose do they
>> serve, and how could this purpose be served better.
>>
>> Happy New Year :)
>>
>> בתאריך 29 בדצמ׳ 2017 11:21,‏ "John Erling Blad"  כתב:
>>
>> Users on other projects are complaining about the welcome messages at
>>> arwiki. A bot at that project are welcoming people that has no activity
>>> at
>>> that project at all. The bot operator claims the activity is valid, but I
>>> can't see that this is a well-behaving bot at all.[1]
>>>
>>> I suspect the bot is welcoming every user it can find, but using user
>>> accounts from central login and not users that has local contributions at
>>> arwiki.
>>>
>>> Can someone shut down the bot until the user fix the spam problem.
>>>
>>> [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Meno25#Welcome_messages
>>> ___
>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
>>> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
>>> wiki/Wikimedia-l
>>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>> 
>>>

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Welcome messages at arwiki

[Alessandro Marchetti via Wikimedia-l]

What are the good reason to be poaranoid? The only reason I ever heard is "is 
making me waste time", usually expressed wasting more time.
BTW, after years of SUL most of the old time users have received a lot of 
welcome messages and they receive usually two new ones per year, no more in my 
experience. I made some test with newbies and it does not see more different, 
when they one open some wikis they might receive a message  (and if they are 
not used to other culture, that does not happen a lot of time, I suppose) . 
I can think of dozens of things in my life that spam me more, and make me more 
"paranoid". Yesterday I search a stupid thing and I found a related ad in my 
youtube after 5 minutes, I told on a chat app that I had the flue and I got a 
flu treatment opening a web page... spent more time being irritated by these 
facts, this might have a good impact on everybody's life. 
For wikimedia, just ask to add a link to a meta page where is written down 
which messages are received via bot simply after log in, so it is super 
transparent how it works and you learn how the build up of the SUL log in 
works. Put a link to CentralAuth too.
 

Il Sabato 30 Dicembre 2017 11:28, Peter Southwood 
 ha scritto:
 

 Hi Ting, You make a fair point about culture, but the impression I got is that 
the welcomes were being sent to people who were not intentionally editing the 
arwiki, or aware that they were doing so, which makes this a cultural thing 
imposed on people who were not aware of it or expecting it, and who did not 
have a way to avoid it even if they had known it might happen, which is a bit 
beyond local culture. For myself I am not bothered by messages from other 
Wikis, even if I can't read them. I am used to it, but some people are more 
paranoid than me, sometimes for good reasons. Cheers,
Peter

-Original Message-
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of 
Ting Chen
Sent: 30 December 2017 11:38
To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Welcome messages at arwiki

Hello Amir,


I think what you are questioning is right. And it is necessary to ask such 
questions. In my day job it is my duty to ask and discuss such questions with 
my customers.


But, with the time I sort of see that these pure utilitarian questions are not 
the only questions that we need to consider. I start to ask questions that are 
beyond or below (according to the perspective) these pure utilitarian 
questions. I find the answer Meno25 gave on Meta a very interesting one in this 
respect. In his answer he was not arguing about if the welcome-bot is useful or 
meaningful. He said it is their custom to do so. What he is pointing to is 
culture. See, why do we hug, shake hands, nod, or rub noses, or kiss? From a 
pure utilitarian point of view these behaviors are not only meaningless, they 
are even potentially dangerous for our health. If we just want to meet other 
people and talk to them why do we not just directly talk about what we want to 
talk about and make it behind us?


And this is why in my opinion it is good that every project has its own way to 
handle welcome message: Because the welcome message is not only a utilitarian 
thing, there is culture beyond or below it. There is culture encompassed from 
the societies where the project community is embedded in and there is culture 
that was created and developed by the project community.


This is why in my opinion as long as the message is not malicious how every 
community handles this is their own thing.


Greetings

Ting



Am 30.12.2017 um 09:29 schrieb Amir E. Aharoni:
> It's a good opportunity to step back and discuss a little something.
>
> The existence of pretty much every bot is a reason to think of a missing
> feature in the site's software. The same goes for templates and gadgets.
>
> Why do many wikis have custom welcome templates and bots that send them?
> The intuitive answer is "to send a personal message to a new user", but if
> it's done by a bot, it's already not personal. What does the bot actually
> automate? The placement of a template? But what is the actual purpose of
> the template?
>
> Is it to say "hello and welcome"? The notifications feature already does it
> nicely.
>
> To send people a list of useful links? I heard many times that new users
> actually do find them useful, and it's a good thing. But it's nevertheless
> an anecdotal claim, and smarter questions should be asked:
> * How many people actually read these messages?
> * Are all the links useful? Do people actually click them?
> * Could some be removed? Could some be added?
> * Why is it different in every project? Could at least some parts be reused
> across languages in a robust and properly localizable manner?
> * Is the talk page really a good place to do this?
> * How useful is it for people for people who come from another language and
> have an account auto-created?
>
> 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Welcome messages at arwiki

[Peter Southwood]

Hi Ting, You make a fair point about culture, but the impression I got is that 
the welcomes were being sent to people who were not intentionally editing the 
arwiki, or aware that they were doing so, which makes this a cultural thing 
imposed on people who were not aware of it or expecting it, and who did not 
have a way to avoid it even if they had known it might happen, which is a bit 
beyond local culture. For myself I am not bothered by messages from other 
Wikis, even if I can't read them. I am used to it, but some people are more 
paranoid than me, sometimes for good reasons. Cheers,
Peter

-Original Message-
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of 
Ting Chen
Sent: 30 December 2017 11:38
To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Welcome messages at arwiki

Hello Amir,


I think what you are questioning is right. And it is necessary to ask such 
questions. In my day job it is my duty to ask and discuss such questions with 
my customers.


But, with the time I sort of see that these pure utilitarian questions are not 
the only questions that we need to consider. I start to ask questions that are 
beyond or below (according to the perspective) these pure utilitarian 
questions. I find the answer Meno25 gave on Meta a very interesting one in this 
respect. In his answer he was not arguing about if the welcome-bot is useful or 
meaningful. He said it is their custom to do so. What he is pointing to is 
culture. See, why do we hug, shake hands, nod, or rub noses, or kiss? From a 
pure utilitarian point of view these behaviors are not only meaningless, they 
are even potentially dangerous for our health. If we just want to meet other 
people and talk to them why do we not just directly talk about what we want to 
talk about and make it behind us?


And this is why in my opinion it is good that every project has its own way to 
handle welcome message: Because the welcome message is not only a utilitarian 
thing, there is culture beyond or below it. There is culture encompassed from 
the societies where the project community is embedded in and there is culture 
that was created and developed by the project community.


This is why in my opinion as long as the message is not malicious how every 
community handles this is their own thing.


Greetings

Ting



Am 30.12.2017 um 09:29 schrieb Amir E. Aharoni:
> It's a good opportunity to step back and discuss a little something.
>
> The existence of pretty much every bot is a reason to think of a missing
> feature in the site's software. The same goes for templates and gadgets.
>
> Why do many wikis have custom welcome templates and bots that send them?
> The intuitive answer is "to send a personal message to a new user", but if
> it's done by a bot, it's already not personal. What does the bot actually
> automate? The placement of a template? But what is the actual purpose of
> the template?
>
> Is it to say "hello and welcome"? The notifications feature already does it
> nicely.
>
> To send people a list of useful links? I heard many times that new users
> actually do find them useful, and it's a good thing. But it's nevertheless
> an anecdotal claim, and smarter questions should be asked:
> * How many people actually read these messages?
> * Are all the links useful? Do people actually click them?
> * Could some be removed? Could some be added?
> * Why is it different in every project? Could at least some parts be reused
> across languages in a robust and properly localizable manner?
> * Is the talk page really a good place to do this?
> * How useful is it for people for people who come from another language and
> have an account auto-created?
>
> And so on.
>
> Welcome templates have been a part of our sites for well over a decade, but
> it's never too late to ask fundamental question about what purpose do they
> serve, and how could this purpose be served better.
>
> Happy New Year :)
>
> בתאריך 29 בדצמ׳ 2017 11:21,‏ "John Erling Blad"  כתב:
>
>> Users on other projects are complaining about the welcome messages at
>> arwiki. A bot at that project are welcoming people that has no activity at
>> that project at all. The bot operator claims the activity is valid, but I
>> can't see that this is a well-behaving bot at all.[1]
>>
>> I suspect the bot is welcoming every user it can find, but using user
>> accounts from central login and not users that has local contributions at
>> arwiki.
>>
>> Can someone shut down the bot until the user fix the spam problem.
>>
>> [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Meno25#Welcome_messages
>> ___
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
>> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
>> wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Welcome messages at arwiki

[Ting Chen]

Hello Amir,


I think what you are questioning is right. And it is necessary to ask 
such questions. In my day job it is my duty to ask and discuss such 
questions with my customers.



But, with the time I sort of see that these pure utilitarian questions 
are not the only questions that we need to consider. I start to ask 
questions that are beyond or below (according to the perspective) these 
pure utilitarian questions. I find the answer Meno25 gave on Meta a very 
interesting one in this respect. In his answer he was not arguing about 
if the welcome-bot is useful or meaningful. He said it is their custom 
to do so. What he is pointing to is culture. See, why do we hug, shake 
hands, nod, or rub noses, or kiss? From a pure utilitarian point of view 
these behaviors are not only meaningless, they are even potentially 
dangerous for our health. If we just want to meet other people and talk 
to them why do we not just directly talk about what we want to talk 
about and make it behind us?



And this is why in my opinion it is good that every project has its own 
way to handle welcome message: Because the welcome message is not only a 
utilitarian thing, there is culture beyond or below it. There is culture 
encompassed from the societies where the project community is embedded 
in and there is culture that was created and developed by the project 
community.



This is why in my opinion as long as the message is not malicious how 
every community handles this is their own thing.



Greetings

Ting



Am 30.12.2017 um 09:29 schrieb Amir E. Aharoni:

It's a good opportunity to step back and discuss a little something.

The existence of pretty much every bot is a reason to think of a missing
feature in the site's software. The same goes for templates and gadgets.

Why do many wikis have custom welcome templates and bots that send them?
The intuitive answer is "to send a personal message to a new user", but if
it's done by a bot, it's already not personal. What does the bot actually
automate? The placement of a template? But what is the actual purpose of
the template?

Is it to say "hello and welcome"? The notifications feature already does it
nicely.

To send people a list of useful links? I heard many times that new users
actually do find them useful, and it's a good thing. But it's nevertheless
an anecdotal claim, and smarter questions should be asked:
* How many people actually read these messages?
* Are all the links useful? Do people actually click them?
* Could some be removed? Could some be added?
* Why is it different in every project? Could at least some parts be reused
across languages in a robust and properly localizable manner?
* Is the talk page really a good place to do this?
* How useful is it for people for people who come from another language and
have an account auto-created?

And so on.

Welcome templates have been a part of our sites for well over a decade, but
it's never too late to ask fundamental question about what purpose do they
serve, and how could this purpose be served better.

Happy New Year :)

בתאריך 29 בדצמ׳ 2017 11:21,‏ "John Erling Blad"  כתב:


Users on other projects are complaining about the welcome messages at
arwiki. A bot at that project are welcoming people that has no activity at
that project at all. The bot operator claims the activity is valid, but I
can't see that this is a well-behaving bot at all.[1]

I suspect the bot is welcoming every user it can find, but using user
accounts from central login and not users that has local contributions at
arwiki.

Can someone shut down the bot until the user fix the spam problem.

[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Meno25#Welcome_messages
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Welcome messages at arwiki

[Amir E. Aharoni]

It's a good opportunity to step back and discuss a little something.

The existence of pretty much every bot is a reason to think of a missing
feature in the site's software. The same goes for templates and gadgets.

Why do many wikis have custom welcome templates and bots that send them?
The intuitive answer is "to send a personal message to a new user", but if
it's done by a bot, it's already not personal. What does the bot actually
automate? The placement of a template? But what is the actual purpose of
the template?

Is it to say "hello and welcome"? The notifications feature already does it
nicely.

To send people a list of useful links? I heard many times that new users
actually do find them useful, and it's a good thing. But it's nevertheless
an anecdotal claim, and smarter questions should be asked:
* How many people actually read these messages?
* Are all the links useful? Do people actually click them?
* Could some be removed? Could some be added?
* Why is it different in every project? Could at least some parts be reused
across languages in a robust and properly localizable manner?
* Is the talk page really a good place to do this?
* How useful is it for people for people who come from another language and
have an account auto-created?

And so on.

Welcome templates have been a part of our sites for well over a decade, but
it's never too late to ask fundamental question about what purpose do they
serve, and how could this purpose be served better.

Happy New Year :)

בתאריך 29 בדצמ׳ 2017 11:21,‏ "John Erling Blad"  כתב:

> Users on other projects are complaining about the welcome messages at
> arwiki. A bot at that project are welcoming people that has no activity at
> that project at all. The bot operator claims the activity is valid, but I
> can't see that this is a well-behaving bot at all.[1]
>
> I suspect the bot is welcoming every user it can find, but using user
> accounts from central login and not users that has local contributions at
> arwiki.
>
> Can someone shut down the bot until the user fix the spam problem.
>
> [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Meno25#Welcome_messages
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
___
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Welcome messages at arwiki

[Ting Chen]

I cannot see malicious intention behind the use of the bot. If you don't 
feel spoken to, just ignore it. Why is this a so huge problem?



Greetings

Ting


Am 29.12.2017 um 10:20 schrieb John Erling Blad:

Users on other projects are complaining about the welcome messages at
arwiki. A bot at that project are welcoming people that has no activity at
that project at all. The bot operator claims the activity is valid, but I
can't see that this is a well-behaving bot at all.[1]

I suspect the bot is welcoming every user it can find, but using user
accounts from central login and not users that has local contributions at
arwiki.

Can someone shut down the bot until the user fix the spam problem.

[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Meno25#Welcome_messages
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 




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