Re: [Wikimedia-l] Recognition of Jenga Wikipedia ya Kiswahili User Group

[Bobby Shabangu]

Awesome. Congratulations.

On Mon, 11 Jun 2018 22:41 kayode yussuf via Wikimedia-l, <
wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> wrote:

> Congratulations to the new usergroup.
> Kayode Yussuf
>
> On Monday, June 11, 2018, 9:26:50 PM GMT+1, Derick N. Alangi <
> alangider...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>  Hello,
>
> A big and wonderful congratulations to the *Jenga Wikipedia ya Kiswahili
> User Group. *Keep up the great work and enjoy your ride :)
>
> *Kind regards,*
> *Derick N. Alangi*
>
> *[image: https://twitter.com/AlangiDerick]
> 
> *
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 11, 2018 at 8:54 PM Felix Nartey  wrote:
>
> > Congrats to the team behind this!
> >
> > Excited for new exploits in East Africa.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > On Mon, Jun 11, 2018, 7:52 PM Andy Mabbett 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > On 10 June 2018 at 14:49, Kirill Lokshin 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Jenga Wikipedia
> > >
> > > Is that the one where all the articles are in a big pile and we have
> > > to delete^W remove them one by one?
> > >
> > > ___
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fwd: Appropriation of the Wikimedia Blog by the WMF

[David Cuenca Tudela]

Aubrey,

I promised you an answer, and here it comes finally. Sorry it took me a
while :)

Why do I want to be in this movement and not in another one?
Because I find the people here as crazy idealist as I am. Because the tasks
give us something to do that allows us to have something in common. Because
it satisfies this excessive (pathological?) curiosity I have for
everything. Because we have built something that the world admires, and we
are respected for that.

What could do everyone in this movement better to satisfy my sense of
purpose?
To be even more daringly idealist, to bring it to the extreme and beyond.
To be able to find things in common with other volunteers without having to
do anything. To go beyond curiosity for the world and have also curiosity
about one another. To use the respect that the world has for us to
effectively activate global changes.

What is the reward I expect from this movement?
To be transformed. To come here with a limited vision of reality and to
have it expanded. To be challenged, to challenge others, and to learn from
that.

Is it wrong to look for meaning/purpose in the Wikimedia movement?
As it is now, yes. The movement is not well equiped to provide meaning, but
with enough will and perseverance, everything can change.

Do you know what I really like about the people in this movement?
That they really care, about *everything*, and that when I care about
something in particular, they understand the feeling, and I don't have to
explain the burden that it is. And from this conversation and from the
messages that I received in private, I also can tell that there is care for
one another too. Sometimes I believe that we might not have the tools to
express this care. I know this because I wish the best for everyone and it
is hard to show, and since we are not that different, that must be the
situation of everyone, right? :)

If money is not the "silver bullet" to address the problems, what is it
then?
I think it is a combination. I'm too humble to say "give me money, give me
power, I am the right person to help you". No, I don't feel it works that
way. The only thing I can do is enable the structures that allow *anyone*
to step forward and start challenging our wrong ideas, but to do that I
strongly believe they need community support, material and immaterial. Not
to do whatever they want, nor to do whatever anyone else wants, but to
bring about at least personal growth and wisdom.

Wikimedia doesn't complete me either. I come here complete, yet I see in
here a window to the world. If the importance to listen deeply is
understood here, and its benefits felt, then it will be a matter of time
that it will spread everywhere. If the capacity to embody ideas, and bring
them forward, not with the intention to impose them, but with the will to
improve them and understand better how they fit into our lives, then that
also will spread. If all this spreads into the world, then no matter where
I am or with who, I will feel the effects of the Wikimedia community in my
life.

I also have experience with feeling alone with my crowd. And my realization
has been that no matter where I go I will feel alone unless I learn to be
*inquisitively* curious about the other, while encouraging them to do the
same with me (it has to go both ways). Only then true mutual understanding
is built, and then there is trust to share more, and to forget about all
judgments and misconceptions. And then through others you also learn to get
to know yourself better, and then you become your best friend, and then it
is awesome because that is the person you spent most of the time with. I
like others very much, and I like myself too :)
Of course this takes effort, and not everyone is ready or in the situation
to engage in this process, so I feel that to have a handful of people that
know you really well is already a lot.

Micru

On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 3:06 PM Andrea Zanni 
wrote:

> On Sat, Jun 9, 2018 at 10:25 PM, David Cuenca Tudela 
> wrote:
>
> Dear David,
> your mail is very long and dense, I don't know where to start:
> so I'll start from a random point ;-)
>
>
> > You say that that WMF bears responsibility in the "failure" of our
> > Wikisource community project, and that it is not important now. I do not
> > agree about the timing, I find it is very relevant now, because the same
> > pattern that has happened before, it is happening again now. And the
> > pattern is that of the individual voice vs. the organization. We are like
> > ants next to a giant, we complain and say what we need, but we are so
> > little in comparison that our voice doesn't reach any ears.
>
>
> I don't agree with this, because I think that the WMF was the least of my
> problems with Wikimedia, when I decided to take my "wiki sabbatical".
> I actually have problems with the *Wikimedia movement*: with the whole
> thing (volunteers, chapters, WMF, everything).
> I think that our mission is so ambitious, transcendent and great that 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Recognition of Jenga Wikipedia ya Kiswahili User Group

[kayode yussuf via Wikimedia-l]

Congratulations to the new usergroup.
Kayode Yussuf 

On Monday, June 11, 2018, 9:26:50 PM GMT+1, Derick N. Alangi 
 wrote:  
 
 Hello,

A big and wonderful congratulations to the *Jenga Wikipedia ya Kiswahili
User Group. *Keep up the great work and enjoy your ride :)

*Kind regards,*
*Derick N. Alangi*

*[image: https://twitter.com/AlangiDerick]

*


On Mon, Jun 11, 2018 at 8:54 PM Felix Nartey  wrote:

> Congrats to the team behind this!
>
> Excited for new exploits in East Africa.
>
> Cheers,
>
> On Mon, Jun 11, 2018, 7:52 PM Andy Mabbett 
> wrote:
>
> > On 10 June 2018 at 14:49, Kirill Lokshin 
> wrote:
> >
> > > Jenga Wikipedia
> >
> > Is that the one where all the articles are in a big pile and we have
> > to delete^W remove them one by one?
> >
> > ___
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Recognition of Jenga Wikipedia ya Kiswahili User Group

[Derick N. Alangi]

Hello,

A big and wonderful congratulations to the *Jenga Wikipedia ya Kiswahili
User Group. *Keep up the great work and enjoy your ride :)

*Kind regards,*
*Derick N. Alangi*

*[image: https://twitter.com/AlangiDerick]

*


On Mon, Jun 11, 2018 at 8:54 PM Felix Nartey  wrote:

> Congrats to the team behind this!
>
> Excited for new exploits in East Africa.
>
> Cheers,
>
> On Mon, Jun 11, 2018, 7:52 PM Andy Mabbett 
> wrote:
>
> > On 10 June 2018 at 14:49, Kirill Lokshin 
> wrote:
> >
> > > Jenga Wikipedia
> >
> > Is that the one where all the articles are in a big pile and we have
> > to delete^W remove them one by one?
> >
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Recognition of Jenga Wikipedia ya Kiswahili User Group

[Felix Nartey]

Congrats to the team behind this!

Excited for new exploits in East Africa.

Cheers,

On Mon, Jun 11, 2018, 7:52 PM Andy Mabbett 
wrote:

> On 10 June 2018 at 14:49, Kirill Lokshin  wrote:
>
> > Jenga Wikipedia
>
> Is that the one where all the articles are in a big pile and we have
> to delete^W remove them one by one?
>
> ___
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Recognition of Jenga Wikipedia ya Kiswahili User Group

[Andy Mabbett]

On 10 June 2018 at 14:49, Kirill Lokshin  wrote:

> Jenga Wikipedia

Is that the one where all the articles are in a big pile and we have
to delete^W remove them one by one?

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Affiliates] Recognition of Jenga Wikipedia ya Kiswahili User Group

[Katherine Maher]

Wonderful news, congratulations!

On Mon, Jun 11, 2018 at 12:13 PM, Samuel Klein  wrote:

> Yea!  Kudos to Baba Tabita, Kipala, Mohammed and all.
>
> On Mon, Jun 11, 2018 at 3:08 PM KuboF Hromoslav  >
> wrote:
>
> > Big congratulations colleagues! You can make a HUGE change in Africa!
> > Regards
> >
> > KuboF Hromoslav (Michal Matúšov)
> >
> > 2018-06-10 15:49 GMT+02:00 Kirill Lokshin :
> >
> > > Hi everyone!
> > >
> > > I'm very happy to announce that the Affiliations Committee has
> recognized
> > > [1] Jenga Wikipedia ya Kiswahili User Group [2] as a Wikimedia User
> > Group.
> > > The group aims to create and improve content for the Swahili Wikipedia,
> > and
> > > to support the recruitment and development of Wikimedia contributors
> from
> > > East Africa.
> > >
> > > Please join me in congratulating the members of this new user group!
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Kirill Lokshin
> > > Chair, Affiliations Committee
> > >
> > > [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliations_Committee/
> > > Resolutions/Recognition_Jenga_Wikipedia_ya_Kiswahili
> > > [2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Jenga_Wikipedia_ya_Kiswahili
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Affiliates mailing list
> > > affilia...@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/affiliates
> > >
> > >
> > ___
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> > 
>
>
>
> --
> Samuel Klein  @metasj   w:user:sj  +1 617 529 4266
> ___
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>



-- 
Katherine Maher

Executive Director
Wikimedia Foundation

1 Montgomery Street, Suite 1600
San Francisco, CA 94104

+1 (415) 839-6885 ext. 6635
+1 (415) 712 4873
kma...@wikimedia.org
https://annual.wikimedia.org
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Affiliates] Recognition of Jenga Wikipedia ya Kiswahili User Group

[Samuel Klein]

Yea!  Kudos to Baba Tabita, Kipala, Mohammed and all.

On Mon, Jun 11, 2018 at 3:08 PM KuboF Hromoslav 
wrote:

> Big congratulations colleagues! You can make a HUGE change in Africa!
> Regards
>
> KuboF Hromoslav (Michal Matúšov)
>
> 2018-06-10 15:49 GMT+02:00 Kirill Lokshin :
>
> > Hi everyone!
> >
> > I'm very happy to announce that the Affiliations Committee has recognized
> > [1] Jenga Wikipedia ya Kiswahili User Group [2] as a Wikimedia User
> Group.
> > The group aims to create and improve content for the Swahili Wikipedia,
> and
> > to support the recruitment and development of Wikimedia contributors from
> > East Africa.
> >
> > Please join me in congratulating the members of this new user group!
> >
> > Regards,
> > Kirill Lokshin
> > Chair, Affiliations Committee
> >
> > [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliations_Committee/
> > Resolutions/Recognition_Jenga_Wikipedia_ya_Kiswahili
> > [2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Jenga_Wikipedia_ya_Kiswahili
> >
> > ___
> > Affiliates mailing list
> > affilia...@lists.wikimedia.org
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/affiliates
> >
> >
> ___
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-- 
Samuel Klein  @metasj   w:user:sj  +1 617 529 4266
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Affiliates] Recognition of Jenga Wikipedia ya Kiswahili User Group

[KuboF Hromoslav]

Big congratulations colleagues! You can make a HUGE change in Africa!
Regards

KuboF Hromoslav (Michal Matúšov)

2018-06-10 15:49 GMT+02:00 Kirill Lokshin :

> Hi everyone!
>
> I'm very happy to announce that the Affiliations Committee has recognized
> [1] Jenga Wikipedia ya Kiswahili User Group [2] as a Wikimedia User Group.
> The group aims to create and improve content for the Swahili Wikipedia, and
> to support the recruitment and development of Wikimedia contributors from
> East Africa.
>
> Please join me in congratulating the members of this new user group!
>
> Regards,
> Kirill Lokshin
> Chair, Affiliations Committee
>
> [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliations_Committee/
> Resolutions/Recognition_Jenga_Wikipedia_ya_Kiswahili
> [2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Jenga_Wikipedia_ya_Kiswahili
>
> ___
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>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Volunteering and Appreciation (was: Appropriation of the Wikimedia Blog by the WMF)

[David Cuenca Tudela]

On Mon, 11 Jun 2018, 19:39 Gerard Meijssen, 
wrote:

>  When you add the animosity when you come with arguments that are not
> considered, it is too much.
>

Lack of mutual listening is a constant in our movement that I would like to
address one way or another. The animosity depends more on your own
animosity. You normally bring a high degree of animosity and inflexibility
into the conversations, so it's normal that you experience it back.

The notion that you get to cooperate and have mutual understanding is a
> myth.
>

In general I work towards mutual understanding. If more people would do the
same that reality would grow stronger.

So no, I disagree with you. Your premises are wrong. They do not even work
> for you.
>

Which premises? That participating in Meta is worthwhile? For me it works,
so please do not make judgements for me. If Meta is not for you it's fine,
I don't need to convince you of anything. However if you ever would need
global change, the tools available are not that many. You seem to dislike
Meta, but you don't offer any alternative.

Regards,
Micru

>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Volunteering and Appreciation (was: Appropriation of the Wikimedia Blog by the WMF)

[Gerard Meijssen]

Hoi,
You read me wrong. I am not happy because in contrast to you I find that
meta is too much of a time sync. To follow the diverse conversations that
are taking place it almost takes a full time job. When you add the
animosity when you come with arguments that are not considered, it is too
much.

The notion that you get to cooperate and have mutual understanding is a
myth.

It does not mean that I give up, I do the things that I feel are important.
Things that are often contrarian. I feel that we should concentrate on high
schools for languages like Zulu and Yoruba because Wikipedia fellows will
not have any impact there. I feel that too much attention is given to
English Wikipedia; it is not 50% of our traffic and with an equal attention
to all other Wikipedias it would be even less. Even a success story like
gender gap is overrated because other gaps exist that are even worse:
Africa for instance has no percent of humans in Wikidata.

So no, I disagree with you. Your premises are wrong. They do not even work
for you.
Thanks,
  GerardM

On 11 June 2018 at 10:25, David Cuenca Tudela  wrote:

> @Richard:
> Thanks for your words, they matter to me!
> I took a look to the page that you linked and I did some changes (I
> explained them on the talk page), I hope you are ok with them.
> In principle it is a good idea, but as always a group of people is needed
> to put it in practice, and it doesn't seem that there is enough social
> capital to start that.
>
> @Gerard:
> It is true that Meta takes time, but it is the only place that can help us
> coordinating a global movement so diverse as ours. It is also the only
> neutral place where people from different projects can come and talk
> without feeling that they are going to someone else's house (for instance
> that is how it feels to go as a Wikidatan to Wikipedia and vice versa). And
> without dialogue there cannot be real cooperation and mutual understanding.
>
> Your private blog is fine, your work is fine, you can work your whole life
> in isolation and be fine. However, if you want to listen to all the voices
> and do something for them and for you, then you need some infrastructure,
> social and technical. Meta is that place.
>
> You seem to oppose volunteers receiving donations because of the overhead
> that it will generate. I think that if that is the issue, then an effort
> should be done to create shorter reports. Normally reports are long because
> readers want them to be long, if there would be some understanding that
> they take time from everyone, they could be shorter, or at least there
> could be summaries.
>
> Every person has a different situation and finds fulfillment in different
> things, you cannot expect your situation to be universal, and if you are
> fine with yours great for you. I am not so pleased with my situation, that
> is why I want a change for myself, and of course for everyone that wants a
> change too.
>
> Regards,
> Micru
>
> On Mon, Jun 11, 2018 at 7:14 AM Gerard Meijssen  >
> wrote:
>
> > Hoi,
> > One reason why you do not get much traction is because many people,
> myself
> > included, found that there is little purpose in spending time on Meta. It
> > is time spend in a frustrating way and it hardly ever results in the kind
> > of results you hope for. The time necessary to keep up with what is
> written
> > there robs you of the time for projects. Projects are practical and
> expand
> > on the things you really care for. For me that is work on subjects that
> do
> > not get the light of day from most others.
> >
> > My meta thoughts I publish on my blog [1], subjects are my projects and
> my
> > thoughts as I progress .I write there and to be honest, I do not expect
> > much of anyone; I am happy with a single person seeing the benefits and
> > contributing in what I do. Currently I work on African politicians, my
> > interest on Ottoman and Islamic history is on hold for the moment. I find
> > that my thinking is often controversial.
> >
> > Currently there are some moves about paying admins, maybe others. I am
> > strongly opposed because what you sponsor is not so much the work done
> but
> > the ability to do the work *and *read Meta. Given reports of ninety
> pages,
> > it is hardly feasible to keep up even with Wiki as a full time job. It is
> > why we should not sponsor what are in effect policy tigers.
> >
> > When people talk about fulfilment and having a life, in my current job, I
> > work 51 hours a week, I have plenty of slack time; a few minutes here and
> > there. For that Wikidata is excellent. In addition I have to shop, cook,
> > wash the dishes... and be loving to my wife.
> > Thanks,
> >  GerardM
> >
> > [1] https://ultimategerardm.blogspot.com/
> >
> > On 10 June 2018 at 02:08, Richard Ames  wrote:
> >
> > > Micru,
> > >
> > > I think a lot of us care.  I wish you well!
> > >
> > > Some time ago I tried to put some thoughts around volunteering at the
> > WMF.
> > > I thought it needed to 

[Wikimedia-l] Validbook idea in a nutshell. Looking for a public discussion.

[Bohdan Andriyiv]

I am looking for a public feedback/discussion on Validbook idea. Although
Validbook is not wiki project, I am looking for feedback here as in spirit
and in governance model Validbook is similar to Wikimedia projects.
My original email about Validbook [1] to this mailing list contained a bit
too much of everything. I hope this email contains the right amount of
details and will trigger an interesting discussion.

In a nutshell Validbook idea is simple:

   - create service that allows to create Self-Sovereign Identities
   - create service that allows these SSIs to prove that they uniquely
   represent human individuals in a digital world
   - create Kudos (tokens with daily supply 1 token per 1 living human
   (7.5B KDS/day in 2018)
   - distribute all daily Kudos only between SSIs that proved to uniquely
   represent human individual - thus creating huge continuous incentive for
   people to participate in Kudos distribution and support Validbook Services
   right from the start (*solving common killer of "big ideas" – the
   chicken-egg problem*)
   - use Kudos for development and support of *human-centric* Validbook
   Services (low-engaging non-addictive social networking service; end-to-end
   encrypted email service; digital signatures service, wallet for
   self-sovereign money, etc); as a result create leading implementation,
"killer application" for Self-Sovereign Identity idea, DIDs and
Verifiable Credentials specifications, that will provide pressure and
   motivation for governments and organizations to coalesce around it, leading
   to widespread adoption of SSI, end-to-end encryption, self-sovereign money,
   and ultimately to more freedom and more protection of human rights.


This all might sound as something too grandiose and futuristic, but I
cannot find a reason why it cannot be done. Maybe someone can point me to
it?

See more details and how to login into Validbook alpha version at
https://docs.google.com/document/d/19pJ3_xMyNX-bAZSHTXvnwr5xLWsV-ShVv3Vy1S4gN6E/edit?usp=sharing

--
Bohdan Andriyiv

[1] - https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2018-May/090302.html
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Affiliates] Recognition of Wikimedia Community User Group Albania

[Mardetanha]

​ Hi Kirill

  Philip's concerns were not answered, would you please respond, I had the
very same question.



Mardetanha

On Wed, May 23, 2018 at 3:12 PM, Philip Kopetzky 
wrote:

> Hi Kirill,
>
> what's the difference/relationship between this group and the Wikimedians
> of Albanian Language User Group, which is currently applying for a
> simpleAPG grant? How do we avoid creating more Brazilian scenarios by
> reconising even more user groups from the same area?
>
> Best,
> Philip
>
> On 22 May 2018 at 22:07, Kirill Lokshin  wrote:
>
> > Hi everyone!
> >
> > I'm very happy to announce that the Affiliations Committee has recognized
> > [1] Wikimedia Community User Group Albania [2] as a Wikimedia User Group.
> > The group aims to improve content about Albania across the Wikimedia
> > projects, including Commons and Wikidata, and to collaborate with other
> > Wikimedia user groups, chapters, and other free culture groups in Albania
> > and across the region.
> >
> > Please join me in congratulating the members of this new user group!
> >
> > Regards,
> > Kirill Lokshin
> > Chair, Affiliations Committee
> >
> > [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliations_Committee/
> > Resolutions/Recognition_Wikimedia_Community_User_Group_Albania
> > [2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Community_User_
> Group_Albania
> >
> > ___
> > Affiliates mailing list
> > affilia...@lists.wikimedia.org
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/affiliates
> >
> >
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Volunteering and Appreciation (was: Appropriation of the Wikimedia Blog by the WMF)

[David Cuenca Tudela]

@Richard:
Thanks for your words, they matter to me!
I took a look to the page that you linked and I did some changes (I
explained them on the talk page), I hope you are ok with them.
In principle it is a good idea, but as always a group of people is needed
to put it in practice, and it doesn't seem that there is enough social
capital to start that.

@Gerard:
It is true that Meta takes time, but it is the only place that can help us
coordinating a global movement so diverse as ours. It is also the only
neutral place where people from different projects can come and talk
without feeling that they are going to someone else's house (for instance
that is how it feels to go as a Wikidatan to Wikipedia and vice versa). And
without dialogue there cannot be real cooperation and mutual understanding.

Your private blog is fine, your work is fine, you can work your whole life
in isolation and be fine. However, if you want to listen to all the voices
and do something for them and for you, then you need some infrastructure,
social and technical. Meta is that place.

You seem to oppose volunteers receiving donations because of the overhead
that it will generate. I think that if that is the issue, then an effort
should be done to create shorter reports. Normally reports are long because
readers want them to be long, if there would be some understanding that
they take time from everyone, they could be shorter, or at least there
could be summaries.

Every person has a different situation and finds fulfillment in different
things, you cannot expect your situation to be universal, and if you are
fine with yours great for you. I am not so pleased with my situation, that
is why I want a change for myself, and of course for everyone that wants a
change too.

Regards,
Micru

On Mon, Jun 11, 2018 at 7:14 AM Gerard Meijssen 
wrote:

> Hoi,
> One reason why you do not get much traction is because many people, myself
> included, found that there is little purpose in spending time on Meta. It
> is time spend in a frustrating way and it hardly ever results in the kind
> of results you hope for. The time necessary to keep up with what is written
> there robs you of the time for projects. Projects are practical and expand
> on the things you really care for. For me that is work on subjects that do
> not get the light of day from most others.
>
> My meta thoughts I publish on my blog [1], subjects are my projects and my
> thoughts as I progress .I write there and to be honest, I do not expect
> much of anyone; I am happy with a single person seeing the benefits and
> contributing in what I do. Currently I work on African politicians, my
> interest on Ottoman and Islamic history is on hold for the moment. I find
> that my thinking is often controversial.
>
> Currently there are some moves about paying admins, maybe others. I am
> strongly opposed because what you sponsor is not so much the work done but
> the ability to do the work *and *read Meta. Given reports of ninety pages,
> it is hardly feasible to keep up even with Wiki as a full time job. It is
> why we should not sponsor what are in effect policy tigers.
>
> When people talk about fulfilment and having a life, in my current job, I
> work 51 hours a week, I have plenty of slack time; a few minutes here and
> there. For that Wikidata is excellent. In addition I have to shop, cook,
> wash the dishes... and be loving to my wife.
> Thanks,
>  GerardM
>
> [1] https://ultimategerardm.blogspot.com/
>
> On 10 June 2018 at 02:08, Richard Ames  wrote:
>
> > Micru,
> >
> > I think a lot of us care.  I wish you well!
> >
> > Some time ago I tried to put some thoughts around volunteering at the
> WMF.
> > I thought it needed to be better planed / managed.
> >
> > I could not get enough interest to progress the conversation.
> >
> > You may wish to read
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Volunteer_Management
> > and the talk page thereof.
> >
> > Regards, Richard.
> >
> > On 10 June 2018 at 06:25, David Cuenca Tudela  wrote:
> >
> > > Aubrey,
> > >
> > > You speak so much truth in your words that I'm feeling overwhelmed
> right
> > >
> >
> > 
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> 



-- 
Etiamsi omnes, ego non

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fwd: Appropriation of the Wikimedia Blog by the WMF

[Yaroslav Blanter]

Hi David,

I just repeated the formulation of James's proposal (our messages crossed,
I did not react to your message).

Concerning your earlier question on whether "people getting money to learn
to listen" would work - well, it might. But than these people should be
clearly distinguished from the rest of the community and might not create
content, at least not with their special accounts. (I already explained why
I think paying people to create content is a bad idea, and why having
people in the community who are paid alongside with these who are doing the
same job and are not paid is a bad idea). This is, as far as I understand
it, the idea of the WMF community engagement team (in particular, community
health). However, whereas in principle it might work, I do not see how it
could be scaled up - you need people speaking several dozens of languages,
and who are professionally qualified. And I also agree that whereas there
are clearly things which are not healthy in the community, large-scale
psychoterapy is not what we should and can provide. If people are engaged
to the point that they get addicted and need some rehabilitation, they
should disengage (and possibly even forcibly be disengaged, as happened to
one recently globally banned user who meant well but was unable to stop)
and seek professional assistance outside Wikimedia movement. Wikimedia is
about creating free content and propagating free knowledge, it is not about
making friends, creating social networks, or getting the hobbies monetized.
(To be clear, I do not imply at all that you have these intentions or need
rehabilitation or smth, but the sentiment repeats much too often).

Cheers
Yaroslav

On Mon, Jun 11, 2018 at 9:28 AM, David Cuenca Tudela 
wrote:

> Yaroslav,
> what do you mean by people working at the front? Do you mean that you would
> like some leadership in the movement?
> (understanding leadership as the capacity to listen to many voices, and
> challenge them)
>
> I never heard of any company where there are rotations of people who
> matter... in fact it is quite the opposite:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Employee_retention
>
> Why do you feel that rotations are necessary? And wouldn't be the loss
> greater than the gain?
>
> Cheers,
> Micru
>
>
> On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 9:00 PM Yaroslav Blanter  wrote:
>
> > Actually, concerning the group of people working "at the front" might
> work
> > (as soon as it is not just about the support of the English Wikipedia),
> and
> > I would not count sending them to Wikimania as a monetary reward -
> assuming
> > this group undergoes regular rotations, and people who stop working leave
> > the group.
> >
> > Cheers
> > Yaroslav
> >
> > On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 8:18 PM, Anders Wennersten <
> > m...@anderswennersten.se
> > > wrote:
> >
> > > James, I think you yourself earlier today put forwards a possible first
> > > step in this direction.
> > >
> > > Support a group of people working "at the front" in neutralizing paid
> > > editing and other bad editing, by giving them possiblity to meet IRL,
> and
> > > why not at a session commited to this issue at WIkimania?
> > >
> > > Anders
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Den 2018-06-10 kl. 20:09, skrev James Heilman:
> > >
> > >> There is a fair bit of literature on intrinsic versus extrinsic
> > >> motivation.
> > >> Wikipedia has been mostly built on the first. Introducing greater
> > >> extrinsic
> > >> motivation may decrease intrinsic motivation. Doing so should thus be
> > done
> > >> with great care, at a small scale that can be reversed, and be well
> > >> studied
> > >> to make sure the positive outweigh the negatives before being
> expanded.
> > >> Not
> > >> saying we should not look at this just that it may not result in the
> > >> benefits we hope far. With respect to burn out, emergency physicians
> are
> > >> generally paid well yet over half are experiencing burnout.
> > >> https://wire.ama-assn.org/life-career/report-reveals-severit
> > >> y-burnout-specialty
> > >>
> > >> James
> > >>
> > >> On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 11:45 AM, Yaroslav Blanter 
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Hi David,
> > >>>
> > >>> Well, I did not reply because I disagree but in my experience having
> > long
> > >>> arguments with people one disagrees with usually does not lead to
> > >>> agreement
> > >>> and is also very tiring. You gave your opinion, I gave mine, it is up
> > to
> > >>> other readers to decide whose arguments are stronger. I really hate
> > this
> > >>> "last word" game. If Natacha did not raise exactly the same argument
> > >>> again,
> > >>> I would not even respond.
> > >>>
> > >>> Concerning people who do the job and do not feel appreciated - I
> > >>> absolutely
> > >>> agree with you that they should be rewarded. The appreciation can
> come
> > >>> from
> > >>> both the community and the WMF (and possibly sometimes from the
> > external
> > >>> parties). I just disagree that this appreciation should be monetary.
> > >>> There
> > >>> are many ways 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fwd: Appropriation of the Wikimedia Blog by the WMF

[David Cuenca Tudela]

Yaroslav,
what do you mean by people working at the front? Do you mean that you would
like some leadership in the movement?
(understanding leadership as the capacity to listen to many voices, and
challenge them)

I never heard of any company where there are rotations of people who
matter... in fact it is quite the opposite:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Employee_retention

Why do you feel that rotations are necessary? And wouldn't be the loss
greater than the gain?

Cheers,
Micru


On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 9:00 PM Yaroslav Blanter  wrote:

> Actually, concerning the group of people working "at the front" might work
> (as soon as it is not just about the support of the English Wikipedia), and
> I would not count sending them to Wikimania as a monetary reward - assuming
> this group undergoes regular rotations, and people who stop working leave
> the group.
>
> Cheers
> Yaroslav
>
> On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 8:18 PM, Anders Wennersten <
> m...@anderswennersten.se
> > wrote:
>
> > James, I think you yourself earlier today put forwards a possible first
> > step in this direction.
> >
> > Support a group of people working "at the front" in neutralizing paid
> > editing and other bad editing, by giving them possiblity to meet IRL, and
> > why not at a session commited to this issue at WIkimania?
> >
> > Anders
> >
> >
> >
> > Den 2018-06-10 kl. 20:09, skrev James Heilman:
> >
> >> There is a fair bit of literature on intrinsic versus extrinsic
> >> motivation.
> >> Wikipedia has been mostly built on the first. Introducing greater
> >> extrinsic
> >> motivation may decrease intrinsic motivation. Doing so should thus be
> done
> >> with great care, at a small scale that can be reversed, and be well
> >> studied
> >> to make sure the positive outweigh the negatives before being expanded.
> >> Not
> >> saying we should not look at this just that it may not result in the
> >> benefits we hope far. With respect to burn out, emergency physicians are
> >> generally paid well yet over half are experiencing burnout.
> >> https://wire.ama-assn.org/life-career/report-reveals-severit
> >> y-burnout-specialty
> >>
> >> James
> >>
> >> On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 11:45 AM, Yaroslav Blanter 
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi David,
> >>>
> >>> Well, I did not reply because I disagree but in my experience having
> long
> >>> arguments with people one disagrees with usually does not lead to
> >>> agreement
> >>> and is also very tiring. You gave your opinion, I gave mine, it is up
> to
> >>> other readers to decide whose arguments are stronger. I really hate
> this
> >>> "last word" game. If Natacha did not raise exactly the same argument
> >>> again,
> >>> I would not even respond.
> >>>
> >>> Concerning people who do the job and do not feel appreciated - I
> >>> absolutely
> >>> agree with you that they should be rewarded. The appreciation can come
> >>> from
> >>> both the community and the WMF (and possibly sometimes from the
> external
> >>> parties). I just disagree that this appreciation should be monetary.
> >>> There
> >>> are many ways to reward people and at the same to avoid introducing
> >>> additional factors which I believe are harmful for the community.
> >>>
> >>> Concerning the premise that the existed model does not work anymore - I
> >>> just disagree with the premise. Indeed, we have for example burnout of
> >>> volunteers - I myself resigned the admin tools in the English Wikipedia
> >>> in
> >>> January, and stopped editing for a month in February, after the
> community
> >>> failed to do anything about long-term harassment of a certain user
> >>> directed
> >>> at me - but this unfortunately happened before and will happen later.
> >>> Specifically concerning the administrator issue, in the English
> >>> Wikipedia I
> >>> would still like to see any evidence that there is work which requires
> an
> >>> admin attention and does not get it. All backlogs I am aware of
> originate
> >>> not because administrators are lazy or there are too few of them, but
> >>> because things are being asked are not submitted to a right place -
> such
> >>> as
> >>> for example someone asking to resolve a long-standing content dispute
> >>> claiming it is vandalism.
> >>>
> >>> Cheers
> >>> Yaroslav
> >>>
> >>> On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 7:21 PM, David Cuenca Tudela <
> dacu...@gmail.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Yaroslav,
> 
>  Yes, you already made your point earlier, and I addressed it here [1]
>  and
>  also in the draft proposal to enable some volunteers to receive
>  donations
>  for their work [2]. The fact that you neither commented on my reply to
> 
> >>> your
> >>>
>  initial concern, nor on the proposal suggests me several
> possibilities.
> 
> >>> The
> >>>
>  first one is that you are not listening to me [3], because you are not
>  interacting with the proposals that could counter your fears, and you
>  are
>  not asking questions about them. The second one is that you don't
>