Re: [Wikimedia-l] Snøhetta and Wikimedia

2020-01-19 Thread geni
On Sat, 18 Jan 2020 at 00:50, Pine W  wrote:
>
> There are ways that Wikimedia rebranding consultations could be done
> collaboratively, politely, and with careful stewardship of donor's money.
> This is not one of them.

Eh questionable. The community is difficult to engage at the best of
times and tends to be reflexively conservative about such things. It
may well be that it is impossible to get any meaningful agreement on
rebranding.

> I think that it's time for some people in WMF to move on.

This kind of thing has happened from time to time despite significant
staff turnover over the years. Probably just a natural function of
certain organisations. All we can really do is try and limit the
damage.

>but I've had enough of poor coordination,

Unavoidable from time to time since there is too much going on for any
one person to keep track of.

>questionable financial decisions,

Again a function of size. It would frankly be concerning if every
editor agreed with every financial decisions. There is also the long
standing problem of balancing the risk of wasting money with the risk
of paralysis.




-- 
geni

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Snøhetta and Wikimedia

2020-01-19 Thread Mike Peel
This meta RfC might be of interest:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Should_the_Foundation_call_itself_Wikipedia

Gracias,
Mike

> On 19 Jan 2020, at 08:54:12, geni  wrote:
> 
> On Sat, 18 Jan 2020 at 00:50, Pine W  wrote:
>> 
>> There are ways that Wikimedia rebranding consultations could be done
>> collaboratively, politely, and with careful stewardship of donor's money.
>> This is not one of them.
> 
> Eh questionable. The community is difficult to engage at the best of
> times and tends to be reflexively conservative about such things. It
> may well be that it is impossible to get any meaningful agreement on
> rebranding.
> 
>> I think that it's time for some people in WMF to move on.
> 
> This kind of thing has happened from time to time despite significant
> staff turnover over the years. Probably just a natural function of
> certain organisations. All we can really do is try and limit the
> damage.
> 
>> but I've had enough of poor coordination,
> 
> Unavoidable from time to time since there is too much going on for any
> one person to keep track of.
> 
>> questionable financial decisions,
> 
> Again a function of size. It would frankly be concerning if every
> editor agreed with every financial decisions. There is also the long
> standing problem of balancing the risk of wasting money with the risk
> of paralysis.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> geni
> 
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Face recognition

2020-01-19 Thread Ryan Merkley
I don't believe it implies that. As with many things legal, the answer re:
derivatives is likely "it depends".

R.

On Sat, Jan 18, 2020, 10:30 PM Benjamin Ikuta 
wrote:

>
>
> Thanks for that.
>
> Pardon me if I've missed something, but that seems to imply, but not
> directly state, that AI training is a derivative work; could you clarify
> that?
>
>
>
> On Jan 18, 2020, at 2:58 PM, Ryan Merkley  wrote:
>
> > [My comments are my own, and don’t reflect or suggest any official
> position from WMF]
> >
> > The NBC story linked below come out about a year ago. Around the same
> time, when I was CEO at Creative Commons, we published a statement and
> updated FAQs that attempted to respond to questions being asked about
> permitted uses and attribution related to the licenses.
> >
> > CC’s statement (March 2019) is here:
> https://creativecommons.org/2019/03/13/statement-on-shared-images-in-facial-recognition-ai/
> <
> https://creativecommons.org/2019/03/13/statement-on-shared-images-in-facial-recognition-ai/
> >
> > The FAQs are here:
> https://creativecommons.org/faq/#artificial-intelligence-and-cc-licenses <
> https://creativecommons.org/faq/#artificial-intelligence-and-cc-licenses>
> >
> > r.
> >
> > _
> >
> > Ryan Merkley (he/him)
> > Chief of Staff, Wikimedia Foundation 
> >
> > rmerk...@wikimedia.org 
> > @ryanmerkley 
> > +1 416 802 0662
> >
> >> On Jan 18, 2020, at 2:14 PM, John Erling Blad  wrote:
> >>
> >> There are several reports of face recognition going mainstream, often
> >> in less than optimum circumstances, and often violating copyright and
> >> licenses
> >>
> >>
> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/18/technology/clearview-privacy-facial-recognition.html
> >>
> https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/internet/facial-recognition-s-dirty-little-secret-millions-online-photos-scraped-n981921
> >> https://www.ibm.com/blogs/research/2019/01/diversity-in-faces/
> >>
> >> In my opinion building a model for face recognition is a derived work,
> >> and as such must credit the photographers. That pose a real problem
> >> when the photographers counts in the millions and billions. Even a 1px
> >> fine print would be troublesome!
> >>
> >> What is the official stance on this? Is it a copyright infringement or
> >> not, does the license(s) cover the case or not?
> >>
> >> John Erling Blad
> >> /jeblad
> >>
> >> ___
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> 
> >
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Face recognition

2020-01-19 Thread John Erling Blad
From my background in neural networks, and my understanding of how
they work, I would say that your trained network is a derived work if
the weights are learned from a specific training sample. If it does
not learn from a specific sample it is not a derived work from that
sample. It is not sufficient that a specific image is in a training
batch, it must also trigger learning.

The goal for the training is partial or full reconstruction of
properties necessary for some operation. It is perhaps easier to see
with an example: Imagine you have photos of Picasso's art, and you try
to estimate whether some art is within his Blue Period. Is the network
derived work from Picasso's art? And how does that compare to whether
the network itself is a work of art, is it still derived from another
(set of) work of art?

I would say training of neural networks is a derived work built on the
training samples, but I would not say itself is a derived work of art,
even if it can be copyrighted.

The most common solution these days seems to be to encode what is
called "eigenfaces", and then use those to create a kind of hashes for
similarity detection. Eigenfaces are a kind of arketypes of how a face
look like, and mixing such faces creates new ones. It is a bit similar
to those flipover albums the police uses, but allowing a lot more of
gradual changes. Face detection is often visualized as vector points
in movies, but this is not how eigenfaces work. Or rather, it creates
vectors, but not as dots on a portrait.

Note that ClearviewAI goes a good bit longer than just learn some
variant of eigenfaces.

On Sun, Jan 19, 2020 at 4:30 AM Benjamin Ikuta  wrote:
>
>
>
> Thanks for that.
>
> Pardon me if I've missed something, but that seems to imply, but not directly 
> state, that AI training is a derivative work; could you clarify that?
>
>
>
> On Jan 18, 2020, at 2:58 PM, Ryan Merkley  wrote:
>
> > [My comments are my own, and don’t reflect or suggest any official position 
> > from WMF]
> >
> > The NBC story linked below come out about a year ago. Around the same time, 
> > when I was CEO at Creative Commons, we published a statement and updated 
> > FAQs that attempted to respond to questions being asked about permitted 
> > uses and attribution related to the licenses.
> >
> > CC’s statement (March 2019) is here: 
> > https://creativecommons.org/2019/03/13/statement-on-shared-images-in-facial-recognition-ai/
> >  
> > 
> > The FAQs are here: 
> > https://creativecommons.org/faq/#artificial-intelligence-and-cc-licenses 
> > 
> >
> > r.
> >
> > _
> >
> > Ryan Merkley (he/him)
> > Chief of Staff, Wikimedia Foundation 
> >
> > rmerk...@wikimedia.org 
> > @ryanmerkley 
> > +1 416 802 0662
> >
> >> On Jan 18, 2020, at 2:14 PM, John Erling Blad  wrote:
> >>
> >> There are several reports of face recognition going mainstream, often
> >> in less than optimum circumstances, and often violating copyright and
> >> licenses
> >>
> >> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/18/technology/clearview-privacy-facial-recognition.html
> >> https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/internet/facial-recognition-s-dirty-little-secret-millions-online-photos-scraped-n981921
> >> https://www.ibm.com/blogs/research/2019/01/diversity-in-faces/
> >>
> >> In my opinion building a model for face recognition is a derived work,
> >> and as such must credit the photographers. That pose a real problem
> >> when the photographers counts in the millions and billions. Even a 1px
> >> fine print would be troublesome!
> >>
> >> What is the official stance on this? Is it a copyright infringement or
> >> not, does the license(s) cover the case or not?
> >>
> >> John Erling Blad
> >> /jeblad
> >>
> >> ___
> >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
> >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
> >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> >> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 
> >> 
> >
> > ___
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>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Face recognition

2020-01-19 Thread Newyorkbrad
This whole subject raises interesting and important legal and ethical
issues, but are there any direct implications at this time for
Wikipedia/Wikimedia projects?

Newyorkbrad/IBM



On Sunday, January 19, 2020, Ryan Merkley  wrote:

> I don't believe it implies that. As with many things legal, the answer re:
> derivatives is likely "it depends".
>
> R.
>
> On Sat, Jan 18, 2020, 10:30 PM Benjamin Ikuta 
> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Thanks for that.
> >
> > Pardon me if I've missed something, but that seems to imply, but not
> > directly state, that AI training is a derivative work; could you clarify
> > that?
> >
> >
> >
> > On Jan 18, 2020, at 2:58 PM, Ryan Merkley 
> wrote:
> >
> > > [My comments are my own, and don’t reflect or suggest any official
> > position from WMF]
> > >
> > > The NBC story linked below come out about a year ago. Around the same
> > time, when I was CEO at Creative Commons, we published a statement and
> > updated FAQs that attempted to respond to questions being asked about
> > permitted uses and attribution related to the licenses.
> > >
> > > CC’s statement (March 2019) is here:
> > https://creativecommons.org/2019/03/13/statement-on-
> shared-images-in-facial-recognition-ai/
> > <
> > https://creativecommons.org/2019/03/13/statement-on-
> shared-images-in-facial-recognition-ai/
> > >
> > > The FAQs are here:
> > https://creativecommons.org/faq/#artificial-intelligence-and-cc-licenses
> <
> > https://creativecommons.org/faq/#artificial-intelligence-and-cc-licenses
> >
> > >
> > > r.
> > >
> > > _
> > >
> > > Ryan Merkley (he/him)
> > > Chief of Staff, Wikimedia Foundation  >
> > >
> > > rmerk...@wikimedia.org 
> > > @ryanmerkley 
> > > +1 416 802 0662
> > >
> > >> On Jan 18, 2020, at 2:14 PM, John Erling Blad 
> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> There are several reports of face recognition going mainstream, often
> > >> in less than optimum circumstances, and often violating copyright and
> > >> licenses
> > >>
> > >>
> > https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/18/technology/clearview-
> privacy-facial-recognition.html
> > >>
> > https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/internet/facial-recognition-s-
> dirty-little-secret-millions-online-photos-scraped-n981921
> > >> https://www.ibm.com/blogs/research/2019/01/diversity-in-faces/
> > >>
> > >> In my opinion building a model for face recognition is a derived work,
> > >> and as such must credit the photographers. That pose a real problem
> > >> when the photographers counts in the millions and billions. Even a 1px
> > >> fine print would be troublesome!
> > >>
> > >> What is the official stance on this? Is it a copyright infringement or
> > >> not, does the license(s) cover the case or not?
> > >>
> > >> John Erling Blad
> > >> /jeblad
> > >>
> > >> ___
> > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > >> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> ,
> > 
> > >
> > > ___
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> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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> > 
> >
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Face recognition

2020-01-19 Thread John Erling Blad
Training sets already contain images from Commons, so yes, I believe
the implications should be considered.

On Sun, Jan 19, 2020 at 4:46 PM Newyorkbrad  wrote:
>
> This whole subject raises interesting and important legal and ethical
> issues, but are there any direct implications at this time for
> Wikipedia/Wikimedia projects?
>
> Newyorkbrad/IBM
>
>
>
> On Sunday, January 19, 2020, Ryan Merkley  wrote:
>
> > I don't believe it implies that. As with many things legal, the answer re:
> > derivatives is likely "it depends".
> >
> > R.
> >
> > On Sat, Jan 18, 2020, 10:30 PM Benjamin Ikuta 
> > wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Thanks for that.
> > >
> > > Pardon me if I've missed something, but that seems to imply, but not
> > > directly state, that AI training is a derivative work; could you clarify
> > > that?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Jan 18, 2020, at 2:58 PM, Ryan Merkley 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > [My comments are my own, and don’t reflect or suggest any official
> > > position from WMF]
> > > >
> > > > The NBC story linked below come out about a year ago. Around the same
> > > time, when I was CEO at Creative Commons, we published a statement and
> > > updated FAQs that attempted to respond to questions being asked about
> > > permitted uses and attribution related to the licenses.
> > > >
> > > > CC’s statement (March 2019) is here:
> > > https://creativecommons.org/2019/03/13/statement-on-
> > shared-images-in-facial-recognition-ai/
> > > <
> > > https://creativecommons.org/2019/03/13/statement-on-
> > shared-images-in-facial-recognition-ai/
> > > >
> > > > The FAQs are here:
> > > https://creativecommons.org/faq/#artificial-intelligence-and-cc-licenses
> > <
> > > https://creativecommons.org/faq/#artificial-intelligence-and-cc-licenses
> > >
> > > >
> > > > r.
> > > >
> > > > _
> > > >
> > > > Ryan Merkley (he/him)
> > > > Chief of Staff, Wikimedia Foundation  > >
> > > >
> > > > rmerk...@wikimedia.org 
> > > > @ryanmerkley 
> > > > +1 416 802 0662
> > > >
> > > >> On Jan 18, 2020, at 2:14 PM, John Erling Blad 
> > wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> There are several reports of face recognition going mainstream, often
> > > >> in less than optimum circumstances, and often violating copyright and
> > > >> licenses
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/18/technology/clearview-
> > privacy-facial-recognition.html
> > > >>
> > > https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/internet/facial-recognition-s-
> > dirty-little-secret-millions-online-photos-scraped-n981921
> > > >> https://www.ibm.com/blogs/research/2019/01/diversity-in-faces/
> > > >>
> > > >> In my opinion building a model for face recognition is a derived work,
> > > >> and as such must credit the photographers. That pose a real problem
> > > >> when the photographers counts in the millions and billions. Even a 1px
> > > >> fine print would be troublesome!
> > > >>
> > > >> What is the official stance on this? Is it a copyright infringement or
> > > >> not, does the license(s) cover the case or not?
> > > >>
> > > >> John Erling Blad
> > > >> /jeblad
> > > >>
> > > >> ___
> > > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > >> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> > ,
> > > 
> > > >
> > > > ___
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> > > 
> > >
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