Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid API?

[Chris Keating]

It's interesting that of all the strategy recommendations, two are so far
being implemented. One is the Universal Code of Conduct, which has at least
had plenty of discussion and publicity, that even precedes the strategy
process. The other is this, which hasn't been particularly prominent
before, but the WMF seems to have a team working on it just a couple of
weeks after the final recommendations were published.

So while doing this is one of the strategy recommendations, it doesn't seem
that is is now happening *because of* the strategy recommendations

Chris

On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 10:46 AM Gergő Tisza  wrote:

> You can find some more discussion at
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Recommendations/Iteration_3/Promote_Sustainability_and_Resilience#Freemium
>
> As I mentioned there, the premise of the recommendation is that the
> movement needs new revenue sources; in part because the 2030 strategy is
> ambitious and requires a significant increase in resources, in part because
> our current lack of diversity (about 40% of the movement's budget is from
> donations through website banners, and another 40% from past banners via
> email campaigns and such) is a strategic risk because those donations can
> be disrupted by various social or technical trends. For example, large tech
> companies which are the starting point of people's internet experience
> (such as Facebook or Google) clearly have aspirations to become the end
> point as well - they try to ingest and display to their users directly as
> much online content as they can. Today, that's not a whole lot of content
> (you might see fragments of Wikipedia infoboxes in Google's "knowledge
> panel", for example, but nothing resembling an encyclopedia article). Ten
> years from now, that might be different, and so we need to consider how we
> would sustain ourselves in such a world - in terms of revenue, and also in
> terms of people (how would new editors join the project, if most people
> interacted with our content not via our website, but interfaces provided by
> big tech companies where there is no edit button?).
>
> The new API project aims to do that, both in the sense of making it
> possible to have more equitable arrangements with bulk reusers of our
> content (who make lots of money with it), and by making it easier to reuse
> content in ways that align with our movement's values (currently, if you
> reuse Wikipedia content in your own website or application, and want to
> provide your users with information about the licensing or provenance of
> that content, or allow them to contribute, the tools we provide for that
> are third rate at best). As the recommendation mentions, erecting
> unintentional barriers to small-scale or non-commercial reusers was very
> much a concern, and I'm sure much care will be taken during implementation
> to avoid it.
>
> Wrt transparency, I agree this was communicated less clearly than ideal,
> but from the Wikimedia Foundation's point of view, it can be hard to know
> when to consult the community and to what extent (churning out so much
> information that few volunteers can keep up with it can be a problem too;
> arguably early phases of the strategy process suffered from it). This is a
> problem that has received considerable attention within the WMF recently
> (unrelated to API plans) so there's at the very least an effort to make the
> process of sharing plans and gathering feedback more predictable.
> Also, the pandemic has been a huge disruption for the WMF. Normally, by
> this point, the community would have been consulted on the draft annual
> plan, which is where new initiatives tend to be announced; but that has
> been delayed significantly due to so many staff members' lives being
> upheaved. Movement events where such plans are usually discussed had to be
> cancelled, and so on.
>
> (Written with my volunteer hat on. I was involved in the strategy process
> and helped write the recommendation snippet Yair quoted upthread; I'm not
> involved in the API gateway project.)
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
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[Wikimedia-l] Promotion of scientific racism in Wikipedia articles

[Fæ]

It is remarkably easy to find various language Wikipedia articles that
actively promote scientific racism. The forthcoming WMF universal code
of conduct is unlikely to directly address this type of damaging
anti-educational content, or require projects to take action.

This may surprise some, but here are two examples, and if you follow
the multiple language links in each, you will find many other language
examples:

[1] Wikipedia article in Russian about "Negroid race" (Негроидная
раса) and associates Negroid as being defined by genetics. Nowhere in
the article is it explained that these are debunked racist theories.

[2] Wikipedia article in Italian about "Mongoloid" (Mongoloide),
defines being Mongoloid by physical characteristics and presents it as
a scientific term with a section explaining how the Mogoloid race is
geographically spread.

Unfortunately, as these outdated racist theories are Wikipedia
articles, Wikimedia Commons still hosts multiple *user created*
"racial maps" of the human race as if this were a current scientific
race taxonomy for humans. These maps are not even required to have
warnings that their content is scientific racism or why that's a bad
thing.[3]

At the current time, nobody is solving this problem with systemic
racism and I am unaware of the WMF funding a project that will take
action to fix it, nor even tracking this repugnant material. The idea
that we might still be vaguely talking about how bad it is that
Wikipedia is being used to promote "Negroid race" as science in
several years time, without any systematic action to get rid of it or
at least correctly reformat the article to describe it as debunked,
should alarm everyone concerned that donor's money is supporting this
content.

Links
1. 
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9D%D0%B5%D0%B3%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%B0
2. https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongoloide
3. 
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/File:Average_East-Eurasian_ancestry_(Mongoloid).png

Thanks,
Fae
-- 
fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid API?

[Dennis During]

1. Never let a crisis go to waste.
2. Never let a strategy process go to waste.

If you've got something you want that is not necessarily universally loved,
make a plan and cram it into anything that doesn't make it a laughingstock.

Want to loot Constantinople? Make sure you're in the Crusade that passes by
there. This tactic is neutral, available for good, evil, partisan ends.

On Tue, Jun 16, 2020, 08:43 Chris Keating 
wrote:

> It's interesting that of all the strategy recommendations, two are so far
> being implemented. One is the Universal Code of Conduct, which has at least
> had plenty of discussion and publicity, that even precedes the strategy
> process. The other is this, which hasn't been particularly prominent
> before, but the WMF seems to have a team working on it just a couple of
> weeks after the final recommendations were published.
>
> So while doing this is one of the strategy recommendations, it doesn't seem
> that is is now happening *because of* the strategy recommendations
>
> Chris
>
> On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 10:46 AM Gergő Tisza  wrote:
>
> > You can find some more discussion at
> >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Recommendations/Iteration_3/Promote_Sustainability_and_Resilience#Freemium
> >
> > As I mentioned there, the premise of the recommendation is that the
> > movement needs new revenue sources; in part because the 2030 strategy is
> > ambitious and requires a significant increase in resources, in part
> because
> > our current lack of diversity (about 40% of the movement's budget is from
> > donations through website banners, and another 40% from past banners via
> > email campaigns and such) is a strategic risk because those donations can
> > be disrupted by various social or technical trends. For example, large
> tech
> > companies which are the starting point of people's internet experience
> > (such as Facebook or Google) clearly have aspirations to become the end
> > point as well - they try to ingest and display to their users directly as
> > much online content as they can. Today, that's not a whole lot of content
> > (you might see fragments of Wikipedia infoboxes in Google's "knowledge
> > panel", for example, but nothing resembling an encyclopedia article). Ten
> > years from now, that might be different, and so we need to consider how
> we
> > would sustain ourselves in such a world - in terms of revenue, and also
> in
> > terms of people (how would new editors join the project, if most people
> > interacted with our content not via our website, but interfaces provided
> by
> > big tech companies where there is no edit button?).
> >
> > The new API project aims to do that, both in the sense of making it
> > possible to have more equitable arrangements with bulk reusers of our
> > content (who make lots of money with it), and by making it easier to
> reuse
> > content in ways that align with our movement's values (currently, if you
> > reuse Wikipedia content in your own website or application, and want to
> > provide your users with information about the licensing or provenance of
> > that content, or allow them to contribute, the tools we provide for that
> > are third rate at best). As the recommendation mentions, erecting
> > unintentional barriers to small-scale or non-commercial reusers was very
> > much a concern, and I'm sure much care will be taken during
> implementation
> > to avoid it.
> >
> > Wrt transparency, I agree this was communicated less clearly than ideal,
> > but from the Wikimedia Foundation's point of view, it can be hard to know
> > when to consult the community and to what extent (churning out so much
> > information that few volunteers can keep up with it can be a problem too;
> > arguably early phases of the strategy process suffered from it). This is
> a
> > problem that has received considerable attention within the WMF recently
> > (unrelated to API plans) so there's at the very least an effort to make
> the
> > process of sharing plans and gathering feedback more predictable.
> > Also, the pandemic has been a huge disruption for the WMF. Normally, by
> > this point, the community would have been consulted on the draft annual
> > plan, which is where new initiatives tend to be announced; but that has
> > been delayed significantly due to so many staff members' lives being
> > upheaved. Movement events where such plans are usually discussed had to
> be
> > cancelled, and so on.
> >
> > (Written with my volunteer hat on. I was involved in the strategy process
> > and helped write the recommendation snippet Yair quoted upthread; I'm not
> > involved in the API gateway project.)
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Promotion of scientific racism in Wikipedia articles

[John Erling Blad]

Feel free to explain how the appearance of race differences is not defined
by genetics. I have absolutely no problem accepting that people are
different, and that some people may even be better adapted to
the environment than me. ;)

On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 3:32 PM Fæ  wrote:

> No, we do not call other Wikipedians "Negroid" because of their
> appearance meeting a racist theory published in the 1930s.
>
> Or were you trying to say something else, other than defending
> "scientific racism" on this public list?
>
> Fae
>
> On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 at 14:25, John Erling Blad  wrote:
> >
> > I'm not sure it is wise to try to refute differences between humans,
> > whether we call it race or something else, it is simply too easy to point
> > out the differences. We should rather promote that differences are a
> > GoodThing™
> >
> > Humans do exhibit racial differences, but those differences should not be
> > used as an excuse for abusing other people.
> >
> > I'm a pink Norwegian, and I would probably die in the Kalahari desert,
> > unless rescued by someone from the San people. They are so darn cool!
> >
> > On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 2:57 PM Fæ  wrote:
> >
> > > It is remarkably easy to find various language Wikipedia articles that
> > > actively promote scientific racism. The forthcoming WMF universal code
> > > of conduct is unlikely to directly address this type of damaging
> > > anti-educational content, or require projects to take action.
> > >
> > > This may surprise some, but here are two examples, and if you follow
> > > the multiple language links in each, you will find many other language
> > > examples:
> > >
> > > [1] Wikipedia article in Russian about "Negroid race" (Негроидная
> > > раса) and associates Negroid as being defined by genetics. Nowhere in
> > > the article is it explained that these are debunked racist theories.
> > >
> > > [2] Wikipedia article in Italian about "Mongoloid" (Mongoloide),
> > > defines being Mongoloid by physical characteristics and presents it as
> > > a scientific term with a section explaining how the Mogoloid race is
> > > geographically spread.
> > >
> > > Unfortunately, as these outdated racist theories are Wikipedia
> > > articles, Wikimedia Commons still hosts multiple *user created*
> > > "racial maps" of the human race as if this were a current scientific
> > > race taxonomy for humans. These maps are not even required to have
> > > warnings that their content is scientific racism or why that's a bad
> > > thing.[3]
> > >
> > > At the current time, nobody is solving this problem with systemic
> > > racism and I am unaware of the WMF funding a project that will take
> > > action to fix it, nor even tracking this repugnant material. The idea
> > > that we might still be vaguely talking about how bad it is that
> > > Wikipedia is being used to promote "Negroid race" as science in
> > > several years time, without any systematic action to get rid of it or
> > > at least correctly reformat the article to describe it as debunked,
> > > should alarm everyone concerned that donor's money is supporting this
> > > content.
> > >
> > > Links
> > > 1.
> > >
> https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9D%D0%B5%D0%B3%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%B0
> > > 2. https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongoloide
> > > 3.
> > >
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/File:Average_East-Eurasian_ancestry_(Mongoloid).png
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Fae
> > > --
> > > fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > 
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
>
> --
> fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
>
> ___
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> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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> 
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Promotion of scientific racism in Wikipedia articles

[Dennis During]

Are you actually saying that it is promoting biological racism to mention
the fact that, say, skin color, hair color, aspects of bone structure, or
susceptibility to certain diseases are heritable characteristics of certain
human populations?

Is this some kind of practical joke you are trying to play on us?

On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 9:42 AM Fæ  wrote:

> What, you are really using a Wikimedia funded email list to promote
> biological racism? That's ... not acceptable behaviour.
>
> Go read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_racism.
>
> Fae
>
> On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 at 14:37, John Erling Blad  wrote:
> >
> > Feel free to explain how the appearance of race differences is not
> defined
> > by genetics. I have absolutely no problem accepting that people are
> > different, and that some people may even be better adapted to
> > the environment than me. ;)
> >
> > On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 3:32 PM Fæ  wrote:
> >
> > > No, we do not call other Wikipedians "Negroid" because of their
> > > appearance meeting a racist theory published in the 1930s.
> > >
> > > Or were you trying to say something else, other than defending
> > > "scientific racism" on this public list?
> > >
> > > Fae
> > >
> > > On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 at 14:25, John Erling Blad 
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I'm not sure it is wise to try to refute differences between humans,
> > > > whether we call it race or something else, it is simply too easy to
> point
> > > > out the differences. We should rather promote that differences are a
> > > > GoodThing™
> > > >
> > > > Humans do exhibit racial differences, but those differences should
> not be
> > > > used as an excuse for abusing other people.
> > > >
> > > > I'm a pink Norwegian, and I would probably die in the Kalahari
> desert,
> > > > unless rescued by someone from the San people. They are so darn cool!
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 2:57 PM Fæ  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > It is remarkably easy to find various language Wikipedia articles
> that
> > > > > actively promote scientific racism. The forthcoming WMF universal
> code
> > > > > of conduct is unlikely to directly address this type of damaging
> > > > > anti-educational content, or require projects to take action.
> > > > >
> > > > > This may surprise some, but here are two examples, and if you
> follow
> > > > > the multiple language links in each, you will find many other
> language
> > > > > examples:
> > > > >
> > > > > [1] Wikipedia article in Russian about "Negroid race" (Негроидная
> > > > > раса) and associates Negroid as being defined by genetics. Nowhere
> in
> > > > > the article is it explained that these are debunked racist
> theories.
> > > > >
> > > > > [2] Wikipedia article in Italian about "Mongoloid" (Mongoloide),
> > > > > defines being Mongoloid by physical characteristics and presents
> it as
> > > > > a scientific term with a section explaining how the Mogoloid race
> is
> > > > > geographically spread.
> > > > >
> > > > > Unfortunately, as these outdated racist theories are Wikipedia
> > > > > articles, Wikimedia Commons still hosts multiple *user created*
> > > > > "racial maps" of the human race as if this were a current
> scientific
> > > > > race taxonomy for humans. These maps are not even required to have
> > > > > warnings that their content is scientific racism or why that's a
> bad
> > > > > thing.[3]
> > > > >
> > > > > At the current time, nobody is solving this problem with systemic
> > > > > racism and I am unaware of the WMF funding a project that will take
> > > > > action to fix it, nor even tracking this repugnant material. The
> idea
> > > > > that we might still be vaguely talking about how bad it is that
> > > > > Wikipedia is being used to promote "Negroid race" as science in
> > > > > several years time, without any systematic action to get rid of it
> or
> > > > > at least correctly reformat the article to describe it as debunked,
> > > > > should alarm everyone concerned that donor's money is supporting
> this
> > > > > content.
> > > > >
> > > > > Links
> > > > > 1.
> > > > >
> > >
> https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9D%D0%B5%D0%B3%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%B0
> > > > > 2. https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongoloide
> > > > > 3.
> > > > >
> > >
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/File:Average_East-Eurasian_ancestry_(Mongoloid).png
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > Fae
> > > > > --
> > > > > fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
> > > > >
> > > > > ___
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > >  ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Promotion of scientific racism in Wikipedia articles

[Chico Venancio]

I don't feel safe in an environment were racism is being labeled as
"presenting truths".

Maybe the list moderators should take a look at this thread.

Chico Venancio

Em ter, 16 de jun de 2020 10:42, Dennis During 
escreveu:

> I don't feel safe presenting truths in an environment where one can be
> bullied for presenting truths that are unfashionable or can be so painted.
> Does the Code of Conduct cover that?
>
> On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 8:57 AM Fæ  wrote:
>
> > It is remarkably easy to find various language Wikipedia articles that
> > actively promote scientific racism. The forthcoming WMF universal code
> > of conduct is unlikely to directly address this type of damaging
> > anti-educational content, or require projects to take action.
> >
> > This may surprise some, but here are two examples, and if you follow
> > the multiple language links in each, you will find many other language
> > examples:
> >
> > [1] Wikipedia article in Russian about "Negroid race" (Негроидная
> > раса) and associates Negroid as being defined by genetics. Nowhere in
> > the article is it explained that these are debunked racist theories.
> >
> > [2] Wikipedia article in Italian about "Mongoloid" (Mongoloide),
> > defines being Mongoloid by physical characteristics and presents it as
> > a scientific term with a section explaining how the Mogoloid race is
> > geographically spread.
> >
> > Unfortunately, as these outdated racist theories are Wikipedia
> > articles, Wikimedia Commons still hosts multiple *user created*
> > "racial maps" of the human race as if this were a current scientific
> > race taxonomy for humans. These maps are not even required to have
> > warnings that their content is scientific racism or why that's a bad
> > thing.[3]
> >
> > At the current time, nobody is solving this problem with systemic
> > racism and I am unaware of the WMF funding a project that will take
> > action to fix it, nor even tracking this repugnant material. The idea
> > that we might still be vaguely talking about how bad it is that
> > Wikipedia is being used to promote "Negroid race" as science in
> > several years time, without any systematic action to get rid of it or
> > at least correctly reformat the article to describe it as debunked,
> > should alarm everyone concerned that donor's money is supporting this
> > content.
> >
> > Links
> > 1.
> >
> https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9D%D0%B5%D0%B3%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%B0
> > 2. https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongoloide
> > 3.
> >
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/File:Average_East-Eurasian_ancestry_(Mongoloid).png
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Fae
> > --
> > fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
> >
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
>
>
>
> --
> Dennis C. During
> ___
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Promotion of scientific racism in Wikipedia articles

[Gnangarra]

yes, when the categories termed Race, when the discussion is about
enforcing Race as a concept.

The traits you speak of;

>  hair color, aspects of bone structure, or susceptibility to certain
> diseases are heritable characteristics of certain

human populations?


Are attributes of DNA and genetics... defining them by population locations
is race its used to imply superiority of one person over another.   The
term Fae has raised are not terms related to the science of DNA and
genetics, these are terms use to justify atrocities and exclude people


On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 at 21:49, Dennis During  wrote:

> Are you actually saying that it is promoting biological racism to mention
> the fact that, say, skin color, hair color, aspects of bone structure, or
> susceptibility to certain diseases are heritable characteristics of certain
> human populations?
>
> Is this some kind of practical joke you are trying to play on us?
>
> On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 9:42 AM Fæ  wrote:
>
> > What, you are really using a Wikimedia funded email list to promote
> > biological racism? That's ... not acceptable behaviour.
> >
> > Go read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_racism.
> >
> > Fae
> >
> > On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 at 14:37, John Erling Blad  wrote:
> > >
> > > Feel free to explain how the appearance of race differences is not
> > defined
> > > by genetics. I have absolutely no problem accepting that people are
> > > different, and that some people may even be better adapted to
> > > the environment than me. ;)
> > >
> > > On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 3:32 PM Fæ  wrote:
> > >
> > > > No, we do not call other Wikipedians "Negroid" because of their
> > > > appearance meeting a racist theory published in the 1930s.
> > > >
> > > > Or were you trying to say something else, other than defending
> > > > "scientific racism" on this public list?
> > > >
> > > > Fae
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 at 14:25, John Erling Blad 
> > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm not sure it is wise to try to refute differences between
> humans,
> > > > > whether we call it race or something else, it is simply too easy to
> > point
> > > > > out the differences. We should rather promote that differences are
> a
> > > > > GoodThing™
> > > > >
> > > > > Humans do exhibit racial differences, but those differences should
> > not be
> > > > > used as an excuse for abusing other people.
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm a pink Norwegian, and I would probably die in the Kalahari
> > desert,
> > > > > unless rescued by someone from the San people. They are so darn
> cool!
> > > > >
> > > > > On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 2:57 PM Fæ  wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > It is remarkably easy to find various language Wikipedia articles
> > that
> > > > > > actively promote scientific racism. The forthcoming WMF universal
> > code
> > > > > > of conduct is unlikely to directly address this type of damaging
> > > > > > anti-educational content, or require projects to take action.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This may surprise some, but here are two examples, and if you
> > follow
> > > > > > the multiple language links in each, you will find many other
> > language
> > > > > > examples:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > [1] Wikipedia article in Russian about "Negroid race" (Негроидная
> > > > > > раса) and associates Negroid as being defined by genetics.
> Nowhere
> > in
> > > > > > the article is it explained that these are debunked racist
> > theories.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > [2] Wikipedia article in Italian about "Mongoloid" (Mongoloide),
> > > > > > defines being Mongoloid by physical characteristics and presents
> > it as
> > > > > > a scientific term with a section explaining how the Mogoloid race
> > is
> > > > > > geographically spread.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Unfortunately, as these outdated racist theories are Wikipedia
> > > > > > articles, Wikimedia Commons still hosts multiple *user created*
> > > > > > "racial maps" of the human race as if this were a current
> > scientific
> > > > > > race taxonomy for humans. These maps are not even required to
> have
> > > > > > warnings that their content is scientific racism or why that's a
> > bad
> > > > > > thing.[3]
> > > > > >
> > > > > > At the current time, nobody is solving this problem with systemic
> > > > > > racism and I am unaware of the WMF funding a project that will
> take
> > > > > > action to fix it, nor even tracking this repugnant material. The
> > idea
> > > > > > that we might still be vaguely talking about how bad it is that
> > > > > > Wikipedia is being used to promote "Negroid race" as science in
> > > > > > several years time, without any systematic action to get rid of
> it
> > or
> > > > > > at least correctly reformat the article to describe it as
> debunked,
> > > > > > should alarm everyone concerned that donor's money is supporting
> > this
> > > > > > content.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Links
> > > > > > 1.
> > > > > >
> > > >
> >
> 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Promotion of scientific racism in Wikipedia articles

[Pharos]

Wikipedia and the Wikimedia projects should reflect the scientific
consensus, whether that be on climate, vaccines, or the concept of
biological "races".

The latter concept is deeply tied to 19th-century pseudoscience, and is
very different from modern genetic science. Genetic traits have various
distributions by geography, but these are not grouped by "races", which is
largely an arbitrary social distinction.

I agree that this is not a particularly fruitful topic for discussion on
this mailing list.

Thanks,
Richard
(User:Pharos)

On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 9:42 AM Dennis During  wrote:

> I don't feel safe presenting truths in an environment where one can be
> bullied for presenting truths that are unfashionable or can be so painted.
> Does the Code of Conduct cover that?
>
> On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 8:57 AM Fæ  wrote:
>
> > It is remarkably easy to find various language Wikipedia articles that
> > actively promote scientific racism. The forthcoming WMF universal code
> > of conduct is unlikely to directly address this type of damaging
> > anti-educational content, or require projects to take action.
> >
> > This may surprise some, but here are two examples, and if you follow
> > the multiple language links in each, you will find many other language
> > examples:
> >
> > [1] Wikipedia article in Russian about "Negroid race" (Негроидная
> > раса) and associates Negroid as being defined by genetics. Nowhere in
> > the article is it explained that these are debunked racist theories.
> >
> > [2] Wikipedia article in Italian about "Mongoloid" (Mongoloide),
> > defines being Mongoloid by physical characteristics and presents it as
> > a scientific term with a section explaining how the Mogoloid race is
> > geographically spread.
> >
> > Unfortunately, as these outdated racist theories are Wikipedia
> > articles, Wikimedia Commons still hosts multiple *user created*
> > "racial maps" of the human race as if this were a current scientific
> > race taxonomy for humans. These maps are not even required to have
> > warnings that their content is scientific racism or why that's a bad
> > thing.[3]
> >
> > At the current time, nobody is solving this problem with systemic
> > racism and I am unaware of the WMF funding a project that will take
> > action to fix it, nor even tracking this repugnant material. The idea
> > that we might still be vaguely talking about how bad it is that
> > Wikipedia is being used to promote "Negroid race" as science in
> > several years time, without any systematic action to get rid of it or
> > at least correctly reformat the article to describe it as debunked,
> > should alarm everyone concerned that donor's money is supporting this
> > content.
> >
> > Links
> > 1.
> >
> https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9D%D0%B5%D0%B3%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%B0
> > 2. https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongoloide
> > 3.
> >
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/File:Average_East-Eurasian_ancestry_(Mongoloid).png
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Fae
> > --
> > fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
> >
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
>
>
>
> --
> Dennis C. During
> ___
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[Wikimedia-l] IMPORTANT: Entire list on moderation and notes on conduct

[Asaf Bartov]

Dear Wikimedia-l subscribers.

I write to you in my volunteer capacity of list-admin, to inform you that
the entire Wikimedia-l mailing list is now under moderation, meaning all
posts will have to be manually reviewed and approved by one of the admins.

Here's why:

Comments on the thread titled (and seeking to remove) "Promotion of
scientific racism in Wikipedia articles" have upset a large number of
people, quite a few of whom wrote to the list-admins requesting that the
thread be shut down.

Reviewing the thread, we see some comments that AT BEST (assuming good
faith) are ignorant, insensitive, and tone-deaf, especially in the current
moment.  As always when ASSUMING good faith, the assumption may not be
correct, and some of the comments may be deliberate trolling, i.e.
calculated to upset people.

Be that as it may, people are indeed upset, and the prospects of
constructive conversation about Fae's original topic -- which was
essentially an instance of a well-known systemic problem of Wikipedia, viz.
its susceptibility to relying on outdated or debunked sources, and the
difficulty to dislodge some such sources -- seem very poor.

Shutting down a single thread is not technically possible on a plain
mailing list, so we have moderated the entire list as a stopgap measure.

Our goal is to restore unmoderated list access AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE.
Toward that end, we ask the following:


1. Make no more responses AT ALL on that thread started by Fae.

2. Recognize that the list is for coordination and discussion of matters
related to our work as Wikimedians in service of the Wikimedia mission.  It
is *not* the appropriate venue to debate content issues, including the
concept of "race", various racial theories, etc.

3. If you would like to pursue work around this systemic issue, I encourage
you to create an on-wiki task force or WikiProject, where you would be able
to clarify methodological questions and plan the on-wiki work.  If you
start such a project, announcing it publicly on this list to let people
know it exists would be permitted.

4. Recognize that whether or not you are personally feeling anything
special is going on, *a lot* of people around the world are undergoing a
trying time right now -- over and beyond the already-trying pandemic
conditions -- specifically involving the diverse phenomena of racism and
bigotry.  People experience it in many different ways, but quite a few are
hurting, quite a few are raging, quite a few are frustrated and upset, etc.

Whatever your opinions about these complex and charged issues, it would be
an act of empathetic kindness and collegiality to your fellow Wikimedians
who *are* experiencing an exceptionally trying time if you *avoid* choosing
this time to air out those opinions.


We shall do our best to monitor the moderation queue at closer intervals,
to support regular list activity on all other topics.  People who would not
heed our requests above will remain on moderation after the entire list is
unmoderated. (We will announce when that happens.)

Your list moderators.
-- 
Asaf Bartov 
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Promotion of scientific racism in Wikipedia articles

[Dennis During]

I don't feel safe presenting truths in an environment where one can be
bullied for presenting truths that are unfashionable or can be so painted.
Does the Code of Conduct cover that?

On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 8:57 AM Fæ  wrote:

> It is remarkably easy to find various language Wikipedia articles that
> actively promote scientific racism. The forthcoming WMF universal code
> of conduct is unlikely to directly address this type of damaging
> anti-educational content, or require projects to take action.
>
> This may surprise some, but here are two examples, and if you follow
> the multiple language links in each, you will find many other language
> examples:
>
> [1] Wikipedia article in Russian about "Negroid race" (Негроидная
> раса) and associates Negroid as being defined by genetics. Nowhere in
> the article is it explained that these are debunked racist theories.
>
> [2] Wikipedia article in Italian about "Mongoloid" (Mongoloide),
> defines being Mongoloid by physical characteristics and presents it as
> a scientific term with a section explaining how the Mogoloid race is
> geographically spread.
>
> Unfortunately, as these outdated racist theories are Wikipedia
> articles, Wikimedia Commons still hosts multiple *user created*
> "racial maps" of the human race as if this were a current scientific
> race taxonomy for humans. These maps are not even required to have
> warnings that their content is scientific racism or why that's a bad
> thing.[3]
>
> At the current time, nobody is solving this problem with systemic
> racism and I am unaware of the WMF funding a project that will take
> action to fix it, nor even tracking this repugnant material. The idea
> that we might still be vaguely talking about how bad it is that
> Wikipedia is being used to promote "Negroid race" as science in
> several years time, without any systematic action to get rid of it or
> at least correctly reformat the article to describe it as debunked,
> should alarm everyone concerned that donor's money is supporting this
> content.
>
> Links
> 1.
> https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9D%D0%B5%D0%B3%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%B0
> 2. https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongoloide
> 3.
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/File:Average_East-Eurasian_ancestry_(Mongoloid).png
>
> Thanks,
> Fae
> --
> fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
>
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 



-- 
Dennis C. During
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Promotion of scientific racism in Wikipedia articles

[John Erling Blad]

I'm not sure it is wise to try to refute differences between humans,
whether we call it race or something else, it is simply too easy to point
out the differences. We should rather promote that differences are a
GoodThing™

Humans do exhibit racial differences, but those differences should not be
used as an excuse for abusing other people.

I'm a pink Norwegian, and I would probably die in the Kalahari desert,
unless rescued by someone from the San people. They are so darn cool!

On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 2:57 PM Fæ  wrote:

> It is remarkably easy to find various language Wikipedia articles that
> actively promote scientific racism. The forthcoming WMF universal code
> of conduct is unlikely to directly address this type of damaging
> anti-educational content, or require projects to take action.
>
> This may surprise some, but here are two examples, and if you follow
> the multiple language links in each, you will find many other language
> examples:
>
> [1] Wikipedia article in Russian about "Negroid race" (Негроидная
> раса) and associates Negroid as being defined by genetics. Nowhere in
> the article is it explained that these are debunked racist theories.
>
> [2] Wikipedia article in Italian about "Mongoloid" (Mongoloide),
> defines being Mongoloid by physical characteristics and presents it as
> a scientific term with a section explaining how the Mogoloid race is
> geographically spread.
>
> Unfortunately, as these outdated racist theories are Wikipedia
> articles, Wikimedia Commons still hosts multiple *user created*
> "racial maps" of the human race as if this were a current scientific
> race taxonomy for humans. These maps are not even required to have
> warnings that their content is scientific racism or why that's a bad
> thing.[3]
>
> At the current time, nobody is solving this problem with systemic
> racism and I am unaware of the WMF funding a project that will take
> action to fix it, nor even tracking this repugnant material. The idea
> that we might still be vaguely talking about how bad it is that
> Wikipedia is being used to promote "Negroid race" as science in
> several years time, without any systematic action to get rid of it or
> at least correctly reformat the article to describe it as debunked,
> should alarm everyone concerned that donor's money is supporting this
> content.
>
> Links
> 1.
> https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9D%D0%B5%D0%B3%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%B0
> 2. https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongoloide
> 3.
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/File:Average_East-Eurasian_ancestry_(Mongoloid).png
>
> Thanks,
> Fae
> --
> fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
>
> ___
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> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Promotion of scientific racism in Wikipedia articles

[Fæ]

What, you are really using a Wikimedia funded email list to promote
biological racism? That's ... not acceptable behaviour.

Go read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_racism.

Fae

On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 at 14:37, John Erling Blad  wrote:
>
> Feel free to explain how the appearance of race differences is not defined
> by genetics. I have absolutely no problem accepting that people are
> different, and that some people may even be better adapted to
> the environment than me. ;)
>
> On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 3:32 PM Fæ  wrote:
>
> > No, we do not call other Wikipedians "Negroid" because of their
> > appearance meeting a racist theory published in the 1930s.
> >
> > Or were you trying to say something else, other than defending
> > "scientific racism" on this public list?
> >
> > Fae
> >
> > On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 at 14:25, John Erling Blad  wrote:
> > >
> > > I'm not sure it is wise to try to refute differences between humans,
> > > whether we call it race or something else, it is simply too easy to point
> > > out the differences. We should rather promote that differences are a
> > > GoodThing™
> > >
> > > Humans do exhibit racial differences, but those differences should not be
> > > used as an excuse for abusing other people.
> > >
> > > I'm a pink Norwegian, and I would probably die in the Kalahari desert,
> > > unless rescued by someone from the San people. They are so darn cool!
> > >
> > > On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 2:57 PM Fæ  wrote:
> > >
> > > > It is remarkably easy to find various language Wikipedia articles that
> > > > actively promote scientific racism. The forthcoming WMF universal code
> > > > of conduct is unlikely to directly address this type of damaging
> > > > anti-educational content, or require projects to take action.
> > > >
> > > > This may surprise some, but here are two examples, and if you follow
> > > > the multiple language links in each, you will find many other language
> > > > examples:
> > > >
> > > > [1] Wikipedia article in Russian about "Negroid race" (Негроидная
> > > > раса) and associates Negroid as being defined by genetics. Nowhere in
> > > > the article is it explained that these are debunked racist theories.
> > > >
> > > > [2] Wikipedia article in Italian about "Mongoloid" (Mongoloide),
> > > > defines being Mongoloid by physical characteristics and presents it as
> > > > a scientific term with a section explaining how the Mogoloid race is
> > > > geographically spread.
> > > >
> > > > Unfortunately, as these outdated racist theories are Wikipedia
> > > > articles, Wikimedia Commons still hosts multiple *user created*
> > > > "racial maps" of the human race as if this were a current scientific
> > > > race taxonomy for humans. These maps are not even required to have
> > > > warnings that their content is scientific racism or why that's a bad
> > > > thing.[3]
> > > >
> > > > At the current time, nobody is solving this problem with systemic
> > > > racism and I am unaware of the WMF funding a project that will take
> > > > action to fix it, nor even tracking this repugnant material. The idea
> > > > that we might still be vaguely talking about how bad it is that
> > > > Wikipedia is being used to promote "Negroid race" as science in
> > > > several years time, without any systematic action to get rid of it or
> > > > at least correctly reformat the article to describe it as debunked,
> > > > should alarm everyone concerned that donor's money is supporting this
> > > > content.
> > > >
> > > > Links
> > > > 1.
> > > >
> > https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9D%D0%B5%D0%B3%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%B0
> > > > 2. https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongoloide
> > > > 3.
> > > >
> > https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/File:Average_East-Eurasian_ancestry_(Mongoloid).png
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > Fae
> > > > --
> > > > fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
> > > >
> > > > ___
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > 
> > > ___
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
> >
> > --
> > fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
> >
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Promotion of scientific racism in Wikipedia articles

[Fæ]

No, we do not call other Wikipedians "Negroid" because of their
appearance meeting a racist theory published in the 1930s.

Or were you trying to say something else, other than defending
"scientific racism" on this public list?

Fae

On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 at 14:25, John Erling Blad  wrote:
>
> I'm not sure it is wise to try to refute differences between humans,
> whether we call it race or something else, it is simply too easy to point
> out the differences. We should rather promote that differences are a
> GoodThing™
>
> Humans do exhibit racial differences, but those differences should not be
> used as an excuse for abusing other people.
>
> I'm a pink Norwegian, and I would probably die in the Kalahari desert,
> unless rescued by someone from the San people. They are so darn cool!
>
> On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 2:57 PM Fæ  wrote:
>
> > It is remarkably easy to find various language Wikipedia articles that
> > actively promote scientific racism. The forthcoming WMF universal code
> > of conduct is unlikely to directly address this type of damaging
> > anti-educational content, or require projects to take action.
> >
> > This may surprise some, but here are two examples, and if you follow
> > the multiple language links in each, you will find many other language
> > examples:
> >
> > [1] Wikipedia article in Russian about "Negroid race" (Негроидная
> > раса) and associates Negroid as being defined by genetics. Nowhere in
> > the article is it explained that these are debunked racist theories.
> >
> > [2] Wikipedia article in Italian about "Mongoloid" (Mongoloide),
> > defines being Mongoloid by physical characteristics and presents it as
> > a scientific term with a section explaining how the Mogoloid race is
> > geographically spread.
> >
> > Unfortunately, as these outdated racist theories are Wikipedia
> > articles, Wikimedia Commons still hosts multiple *user created*
> > "racial maps" of the human race as if this were a current scientific
> > race taxonomy for humans. These maps are not even required to have
> > warnings that their content is scientific racism or why that's a bad
> > thing.[3]
> >
> > At the current time, nobody is solving this problem with systemic
> > racism and I am unaware of the WMF funding a project that will take
> > action to fix it, nor even tracking this repugnant material. The idea
> > that we might still be vaguely talking about how bad it is that
> > Wikipedia is being used to promote "Negroid race" as science in
> > several years time, without any systematic action to get rid of it or
> > at least correctly reformat the article to describe it as debunked,
> > should alarm everyone concerned that donor's money is supporting this
> > content.
> >
> > Links
> > 1.
> > https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9D%D0%B5%D0%B3%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%B0
> > 2. https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongoloide
> > 3.
> > https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/File:Average_East-Eurasian_ancestry_(Mongoloid).png
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Fae
> > --
> > fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
> >
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Promotion of scientific racism in Wikipedia articles

[Dennis During]

So you don't believe that skin color, susceptibility to disease etc are
heritable? Have you heard of DNA?

I had sincerely hoped that the equivalent of yahooist book-burning wouldn't
take over Wikimedia. It's not just disappointing; it's scary.

On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 9:49 AM Chico Venancio 
wrote:

> I don't feel safe in an environment were racism is being labeled as
> "presenting truths".
>
> Maybe the list moderators should take a look at this thread.
>
> Chico Venancio
>
> Em ter, 16 de jun de 2020 10:42, Dennis During 
> escreveu:
>
> > I don't feel safe presenting truths in an environment where one can be
> > bullied for presenting truths that are unfashionable or can be so
> painted.
> > Does the Code of Conduct cover that?
> >
> > On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 8:57 AM Fæ  wrote:
> >
> > > It is remarkably easy to find various language Wikipedia articles that
> > > actively promote scientific racism. The forthcoming WMF universal code
> > > of conduct is unlikely to directly address this type of damaging
> > > anti-educational content, or require projects to take action.
> > >
> > > This may surprise some, but here are two examples, and if you follow
> > > the multiple language links in each, you will find many other language
> > > examples:
> > >
> > > [1] Wikipedia article in Russian about "Negroid race" (Негроидная
> > > раса) and associates Negroid as being defined by genetics. Nowhere in
> > > the article is it explained that these are debunked racist theories.
> > >
> > > [2] Wikipedia article in Italian about "Mongoloid" (Mongoloide),
> > > defines being Mongoloid by physical characteristics and presents it as
> > > a scientific term with a section explaining how the Mogoloid race is
> > > geographically spread.
> > >
> > > Unfortunately, as these outdated racist theories are Wikipedia
> > > articles, Wikimedia Commons still hosts multiple *user created*
> > > "racial maps" of the human race as if this were a current scientific
> > > race taxonomy for humans. These maps are not even required to have
> > > warnings that their content is scientific racism or why that's a bad
> > > thing.[3]
> > >
> > > At the current time, nobody is solving this problem with systemic
> > > racism and I am unaware of the WMF funding a project that will take
> > > action to fix it, nor even tracking this repugnant material. The idea
> > > that we might still be vaguely talking about how bad it is that
> > > Wikipedia is being used to promote "Negroid race" as science in
> > > several years time, without any systematic action to get rid of it or
> > > at least correctly reformat the article to describe it as debunked,
> > > should alarm everyone concerned that donor's money is supporting this
> > > content.
> > >
> > > Links
> > > 1.
> > >
> >
> https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9D%D0%B5%D0%B3%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%B0
> > > 2. https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongoloide
> > > 3.
> > >
> >
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/File:Average_East-Eurasian_ancestry_(Mongoloid).png
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Fae
> > > --
> > > fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
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> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > 
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Dennis C. During
> > ___
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Promotion of scientific racism in Wikipedia articles

[Joseph Seddon]

This conversation has very quickly veered away from the original topic and
what the scope of this list is.

Seddon

On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 2:58 PM Gnangarra  wrote:

> yes, when the categories termed Race, when the discussion is about
> enforcing Race as a concept.
>
> The traits you speak of;
>
> >  hair color, aspects of bone structure, or susceptibility to certain
> > diseases are heritable characteristics of certain
>
> human populations?
>
>
> Are attributes of DNA and genetics... defining them by population locations
> is race its used to imply superiority of one person over another.   The
> term Fae has raised are not terms related to the science of DNA and
> genetics, these are terms use to justify atrocities and exclude people
>
>
> On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 at 21:49, Dennis During  wrote:
>
> > Are you actually saying that it is promoting biological racism to mention
> > the fact that, say, skin color, hair color, aspects of bone structure, or
> > susceptibility to certain diseases are heritable characteristics of
> certain
> > human populations?
> >
> > Is this some kind of practical joke you are trying to play on us?
> >
> > On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 9:42 AM Fæ  wrote:
> >
> > > What, you are really using a Wikimedia funded email list to promote
> > > biological racism? That's ... not acceptable behaviour.
> > >
> > > Go read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_racism.
> > >
> > > Fae
> > >
> > > On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 at 14:37, John Erling Blad 
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Feel free to explain how the appearance of race differences is not
> > > defined
> > > > by genetics. I have absolutely no problem accepting that people are
> > > > different, and that some people may even be better adapted to
> > > > the environment than me. ;)
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 3:32 PM Fæ  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > No, we do not call other Wikipedians "Negroid" because of their
> > > > > appearance meeting a racist theory published in the 1930s.
> > > > >
> > > > > Or were you trying to say something else, other than defending
> > > > > "scientific racism" on this public list?
> > > > >
> > > > > Fae
> > > > >
> > > > > On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 at 14:25, John Erling Blad 
> > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'm not sure it is wise to try to refute differences between
> > humans,
> > > > > > whether we call it race or something else, it is simply too easy
> to
> > > point
> > > > > > out the differences. We should rather promote that differences
> are
> > a
> > > > > > GoodThing™
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Humans do exhibit racial differences, but those differences
> should
> > > not be
> > > > > > used as an excuse for abusing other people.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'm a pink Norwegian, and I would probably die in the Kalahari
> > > desert,
> > > > > > unless rescued by someone from the San people. They are so darn
> > cool!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 2:57 PM Fæ  wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > It is remarkably easy to find various language Wikipedia
> articles
> > > that
> > > > > > > actively promote scientific racism. The forthcoming WMF
> universal
> > > code
> > > > > > > of conduct is unlikely to directly address this type of
> damaging
> > > > > > > anti-educational content, or require projects to take action.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > This may surprise some, but here are two examples, and if you
> > > follow
> > > > > > > the multiple language links in each, you will find many other
> > > language
> > > > > > > examples:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > [1] Wikipedia article in Russian about "Negroid race"
> (Негроидная
> > > > > > > раса) and associates Negroid as being defined by genetics.
> > Nowhere
> > > in
> > > > > > > the article is it explained that these are debunked racist
> > > theories.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > [2] Wikipedia article in Italian about "Mongoloid"
> (Mongoloide),
> > > > > > > defines being Mongoloid by physical characteristics and
> presents
> > > it as
> > > > > > > a scientific term with a section explaining how the Mogoloid
> race
> > > is
> > > > > > > geographically spread.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Unfortunately, as these outdated racist theories are Wikipedia
> > > > > > > articles, Wikimedia Commons still hosts multiple *user created*
> > > > > > > "racial maps" of the human race as if this were a current
> > > scientific
> > > > > > > race taxonomy for humans. These maps are not even required to
> > have
> > > > > > > warnings that their content is scientific racism or why that's
> a
> > > bad
> > > > > > > thing.[3]
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > At the current time, nobody is solving this problem with
> systemic
> > > > > > > racism and I am unaware of the WMF funding a project that will
> > take
> > > > > > > action to fix it, nor even tracking this repugnant material.
> The
> > > idea
> > > > > > > that we might still be vaguely talking about how bad it is that
> > > > > > > Wikipedia is being used to promote "Negroid race" as science in
> > > 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid API?

[Joseph Seddon]

Hey Chris,

I think that saying this happened because of the recommendations remains a
fair statement but for sure there are some caveats with that. I don’t want
to speak for the entire org but I'm also pretty confident in saying that
there are a lot more than just two recommendations with work having started
or about having work spun up on. Infrastructure and Financial
sustainability, User Experience, Safety and Inclusion work are all things
aligned with work the foundation is doing and that are in step with the
strategy recommendations.

With the WMF’s planning process for 2020-21, I think it is fair to say it
was done with both eyes firmly on what was working its way through Phase 2
of the strategy and we aligned or are aligning plans with what came out
back in May.  In this instance improvements to infrastructure and in this
case APIs, data interfaces etc. have been present throughout that and were
the output from two separate working groups during phase 2. The
recommendations of those two working groups aren't moving forward in
isolation either and the WMF is looking to improve its API infrastructure
in a much broader sense and that work is also getting up to speed as we
move into the next financial year.

The reason for that is that we must keep in mind that the strategy process
has gone on for nearly 4 years and the phase we just completed has been
going on for nearly two years now. The recommendations we have today have
grown from that entire 4 year body of work and the whole process has had a
huge influence on the WMF and what goals it is working towards.

Although sometimes many of us might think it, the organisation doesn’t work
in a silo and with that comes the reality that planning timelines don’t
align. I know that if the strategy had come out and the WMF had just sat on
its hands for 16 months until June 2021, waiting for another cycle, before
it started any of the work contained within the strategy, I would have had
a very strongly raised eyebrow and I think there would have been
frustrations from many people. Given that it makes sense that the WMF has
been actively preparing, readying itself and laying the groundwork to get
straight to work in implementing those recommendations.

Seddon

On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 1:43 PM Chris Keating 
wrote:

> It's interesting that of all the strategy recommendations, two are so far
> being implemented. One is the Universal Code of Conduct, which has at least
> had plenty of discussion and publicity, that even precedes the strategy
> process. The other is this, which hasn't been particularly prominent
> before, but the WMF seems to have a team working on it just a couple of
> weeks after the final recommendations were published.
>
> So while doing this is one of the strategy recommendations, it doesn't seem
> that is is now happening *because of* the strategy recommendations
>
> Chris
>
> On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 10:46 AM Gergő Tisza  wrote:
>
> > You can find some more discussion at
> >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Recommendations/Iteration_3/Promote_Sustainability_and_Resilience#Freemium
> >
> > As I mentioned there, the premise of the recommendation is that the
> > movement needs new revenue sources; in part because the 2030 strategy is
> > ambitious and requires a significant increase in resources, in part
> because
> > our current lack of diversity (about 40% of the movement's budget is from
> > donations through website banners, and another 40% from past banners via
> > email campaigns and such) is a strategic risk because those donations can
> > be disrupted by various social or technical trends. For example, large
> tech
> > companies which are the starting point of people's internet experience
> > (such as Facebook or Google) clearly have aspirations to become the end
> > point as well - they try to ingest and display to their users directly as
> > much online content as they can. Today, that's not a whole lot of content
> > (you might see fragments of Wikipedia infoboxes in Google's "knowledge
> > panel", for example, but nothing resembling an encyclopedia article). Ten
> > years from now, that might be different, and so we need to consider how
> we
> > would sustain ourselves in such a world - in terms of revenue, and also
> in
> > terms of people (how would new editors join the project, if most people
> > interacted with our content not via our website, but interfaces provided
> by
> > big tech companies where there is no edit button?).
> >
> > The new API project aims to do that, both in the sense of making it
> > possible to have more equitable arrangements with bulk reusers of our
> > content (who make lots of money with it), and by making it easier to
> reuse
> > content in ways that align with our movement's values (currently, if you
> > reuse Wikipedia content in your own website or application, and want to
> > provide your users with information about the licensing or provenance of
> 

[Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Clinic #001 digest and future calls

[Asaf Bartov]

Dear Wikimedians,

This is an update on the Wikimedia Clinics[1] pilot:

On June 15th we hosted the first Wikimedia Clinic call. It was well
attended (~25 volunteers, not counting WMF staff), with a good mix of
experience levels and countries of origin. As promised, we publish a
*digest* of the call[1], edited for clarity and brevity, and aiming for
maximal value to readers whether or not they attended the call, with links
and information added after the call to complement the information given
during it.

To accommodate different time zones, we are about to host the second
Wikimedia Clinic in a few hours, June 17th at 8:00am UTC.  The meeting link
is [3].

We have also added three more Wikimedia Clinic time slots, which you can
always see in the Clinics page on Meta[1], where the meeting links are
given too.  I also paste the times here for your convenience:

Wednesday, June 17th, 08:00am UTC (today, soon!)
Tuesday, June 23rd, 08:00am UTC
Sunday, June 28th, 17:30 UTC
Wednesday, July 1st, 17:30 UTC

We at the Community Development team are already finding this a useful
model, and have already drawn some valuable feedback that will translate
into future work from us.  One example is a *movement-facing* Introduction
to the Wikimedia Foundation module (see the digest[2]).

Cheers,

A.

[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Clinics
[2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Clinics/001
[3] https://meet.google.com/iex-jebd-due

Asaf Bartov (he/him/his)

Senior Program Officer, Emerging Wikimedia Communities

Wikimedia Foundation 

Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the
sum of all knowledge. Help us make it a reality!
https://donate.wikimedia.org
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] IMPORTANT: Entire list on moderation and notes on conduct

[Samuel Klein]

Thank you, Asaf.

On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 11:03 AM Asaf Bartov  wrote:

> Dear Wikimedia-l subscribers.
>
> I write to you in my volunteer capacity of list-admin, to inform you that
> the entire Wikimedia-l mailing list is now under moderation, meaning all
> posts will have to be manually reviewed and approved by one of the admins.
>
> Here's why:
>
> Comments on the thread titled (and seeking to remove) "Promotion of
> scientific racism in Wikipedia articles" have upset a large number of
> people, quite a few of whom wrote to the list-admins requesting that the
> thread be shut down.
>
> Reviewing the thread, we see some comments that AT BEST (assuming good
> faith) are ignorant, insensitive, and tone-deaf, especially in the current
> moment.  As always when ASSUMING good faith, the assumption may not be
> correct, and some of the comments may be deliberate trolling, i.e.
> calculated to upset people.
>
> Be that as it may, people are indeed upset, and the prospects of
> constructive conversation about Fae's original topic -- which was
> essentially an instance of a well-known systemic problem of Wikipedia, viz.
> its susceptibility to relying on outdated or debunked sources, and the
> difficulty to dislodge some such sources -- seem very poor.
>
> Shutting down a single thread is not technically possible on a plain
> mailing list, so we have moderated the entire list as a stopgap measure.
>
> Our goal is to restore unmoderated list access AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE.
> Toward that end, we ask the following:
>
> 
> 1. Make no more responses AT ALL on that thread started by Fae.
>
> 2. Recognize that the list is for coordination and discussion of matters
> related to our work as Wikimedians in service of the Wikimedia mission.  It
> is *not* the appropriate venue to debate content issues, including the
> concept of "race", various racial theories, etc.
>
> 3. If you would like to pursue work around this systemic issue, I encourage
> you to create an on-wiki task force or WikiProject, where you would be able
> to clarify methodological questions and plan the on-wiki work.  If you
> start such a project, announcing it publicly on this list to let people
> know it exists would be permitted.
>
> 4. Recognize that whether or not you are personally feeling anything
> special is going on, *a lot* of people around the world are undergoing a
> trying time right now -- over and beyond the already-trying pandemic
> conditions -- specifically involving the diverse phenomena of racism and
> bigotry.  People experience it in many different ways, but quite a few are
> hurting, quite a few are raging, quite a few are frustrated and upset, etc.
>
> Whatever your opinions about these complex and charged issues, it would be
> an act of empathetic kindness and collegiality to your fellow Wikimedians
> who *are* experiencing an exceptionally trying time if you *avoid* choosing
> this time to air out those opinions.
> 
>
> We shall do our best to monitor the moderation queue at closer intervals,
> to support regular list activity on all other topics.  People who would not
> heed our requests above will remain on moderation after the entire list is
> unmoderated. (We will announce when that happens.)
>
> Your list moderators.
> --
> Asaf Bartov 
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> 



-- 
Samuel Klein  @metasj   w:user:sj  +1 617 529 4266
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid API?

[Samuel Klein]

A well-provisioned bulk api has been missing for some time.  Thanks for
working on this.  And clearing up the recommended way for WP content to
appear and be linked in third-party searches and infoboxes is important --
the sort of thing that an internal policy (and way to subscribe to feeds)
can help.

I do hope we can host this on WM or openstack infrastructure, and do it in
a way that expands and improves the solid existing frameworks for HTML
dumps :)

S


On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 8:43 AM Chris Keating 
wrote:

> It's interesting that of all the strategy recommendations, two are so far
> being implemented. One is the Universal Code of Conduct, which has at least
> had plenty of discussion and publicity, that even precedes the strategy
> process. The other is this, which hasn't been particularly prominent
> before, but the WMF seems to have a team working on it just a couple of
> weeks after the final recommendations were published.
>
> So while doing this is one of the strategy recommendations, it doesn't seem
> that is is now happening *because of* the strategy recommendations
>
> Chris
>
> On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 10:46 AM Gergő Tisza  wrote:
>
> > You can find some more discussion at
> >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Recommendations/Iteration_3/Promote_Sustainability_and_Resilience#Freemium
> >
> > As I mentioned there, the premise of the recommendation is that the
> > movement needs new revenue sources; in part because the 2030 strategy is
> > ambitious and requires a significant increase in resources, in part
> because
> > our current lack of diversity (about 40% of the movement's budget is from
> > donations through website banners, and another 40% from past banners via
> > email campaigns and such) is a strategic risk because those donations can
> > be disrupted by various social or technical trends. For example, large
> tech
> > companies which are the starting point of people's internet experience
> > (such as Facebook or Google) clearly have aspirations to become the end
> > point as well - they try to ingest and display to their users directly as
> > much online content as they can. Today, that's not a whole lot of content
> > (you might see fragments of Wikipedia infoboxes in Google's "knowledge
> > panel", for example, but nothing resembling an encyclopedia article). Ten
> > years from now, that might be different, and so we need to consider how
> we
> > would sustain ourselves in such a world - in terms of revenue, and also
> in
> > terms of people (how would new editors join the project, if most people
> > interacted with our content not via our website, but interfaces provided
> by
> > big tech companies where there is no edit button?).
> >
> > The new API project aims to do that, both in the sense of making it
> > possible to have more equitable arrangements with bulk reusers of our
> > content (who make lots of money with it), and by making it easier to
> reuse
> > content in ways that align with our movement's values (currently, if you
> > reuse Wikipedia content in your own website or application, and want to
> > provide your users with information about the licensing or provenance of
> > that content, or allow them to contribute, the tools we provide for that
> > are third rate at best). As the recommendation mentions, erecting
> > unintentional barriers to small-scale or non-commercial reusers was very
> > much a concern, and I'm sure much care will be taken during
> implementation
> > to avoid it.
> >
> > Wrt transparency, I agree this was communicated less clearly than ideal,
> > but from the Wikimedia Foundation's point of view, it can be hard to know
> > when to consult the community and to what extent (churning out so much
> > information that few volunteers can keep up with it can be a problem too;
> > arguably early phases of the strategy process suffered from it). This is
> a
> > problem that has received considerable attention within the WMF recently
> > (unrelated to API plans) so there's at the very least an effort to make
> the
> > process of sharing plans and gathering feedback more predictable.
> > Also, the pandemic has been a huge disruption for the WMF. Normally, by
> > this point, the community would have been consulted on the draft annual
> > plan, which is where new initiatives tend to be announced; but that has
> > been delayed significantly due to so many staff members' lives being
> > upheaved. Movement events where such plans are usually discussed had to
> be
> > cancelled, and so on.
> >
> > (Written with my volunteer hat on. I was involved in the strategy process
> > and helped write the recommendation snippet Yair quoted upthread; I'm not
> > involved in the API gateway project.)
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikimedia Research Showcase] June 17, 2020: Credibility and Verifiability

[Janna Layton]

Reminder that this is happening tomorrow!

On Thu, Jun 11, 2020 at 3:24 PM Janna Layton  wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> The next Research Showcase will be live-streamed on Wednesday, June 17, at
> 9:30 AM PDT/16:30 UTC.
>
> In the era of 'information explosion,' we strive to stay informed and
> relevant often too quickly, and hence run into the peril of consuming false
> or distorted facts. This month, our invited speakers will help us
> understand these dynamics, especially in the context of Wikipedia's content
> and readership. First, Connie will talk about an initiative she's been
> leading to source and rank credible information from the news, and its
> overlap with Wikipedia. In the second talk, Tiziano will present his recent
> work on quantifying and understanding how the readers of Wikipedia interact
> with an article's citations to verify specific claims.
>
> YouTube stream: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GS9Jc3IFhVQ
>
> As usual, you can join the conversation on IRC at #wikimedia-research. You
> can also watch our past research showcases here:
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Research/Showcase
>
> This month's presentations:
>
>
> Today’s News, Tomorrow’s Reference, and The Problem of Information
> Reliability - An Introduction to NewsQ
>
> By: Connie Moon Sehat, NewsQ, Hacks/Hackers
>
> The effort to make Wikipedia more reliable is related to the larger
> challenges facing the information ecosystem overall. These challenges
> include the discovery of and accessibility to reliable news amid the
> transformation of news distribution through platform and social media
> products. Connie will present some of the challenges related to the ranking
> and recommendation of news that are addressed by the NewsQ Initiative, a
> collaboration between the Tow-Knight Center for Entrepreneurial Journalism
> at the Craig Newmark Graduate School of Journalism and Hacks/Hackers. In
> addition, she’ll share some of the ways that the project intersects with
> Wikipedia, such as supporting research around the US Perennial Sources list
> (
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Perennial_sources
> ).
>
> Related resources
>
>-
>
>NewsQ Initiative site (https://newsq.net/)
>
>
>-
>
>DUE JUNE 15 (Please apply if interested!): Social Science Research
>Council Call for Papers, “News Quality in the Platform Era”
>
> https://www.ssrc.org/programs/component/media-democracy/news-quality-in-the-platform-era/
>
>
>-
>
>M. Bhuiyan, A. Zhang, C. Sehat, T. Mitra, 2020. Investigating "Who" in
>the Crowdsourcing of News Credibility, C+J 2020 (
>
> https://cpb-us-w2.wpmucdn.com/express.northeastern.edu/dist/d/53/files/2020/02/CJ_2020_paper_32.pdf
>)
>
>
>
>
> Quantifying Engagement with Citations on Wikipedia
>
> By: Tiziano Piccardi, EPFL
>
> Wikipedia, the free online encyclopedia that anyone can edit, is one of
> the most visited sites on the Web and a common source of information for
> many users. As an encyclopedia, Wikipedia is not a source of original
> information, but was conceived as a gateway to secondary sources: according
> to Wikipedia's guidelines, facts must be backed up by reliable sources that
> reflect the full spectrum of views on the topic. Although citations lie at
> the very heart of Wikipedia, little is known about how users interact with
> them. To close this gap, we built client-side instrumentation for logging
> all interactions with links leading from English Wikipedia articles to
> cited references for one month and conducted the first analysis of readers'
> interaction with citations on Wikipedia. We find that overall engagement
> with citations is low: about one in 300 page views results in a reference
> click (0.29% overall; 0.56% on desktop; 0.13% on mobile). Matched
> observational studies of the factors associated with reference clicking
> reveal that clicks occur more frequently on shorter pages and on pages of
> lower quality, suggesting that references are consulted more commonly when
> Wikipedia itself does not contain the information sought by the user.
> Moreover, we observe that recent content, open access sources, and
> references about life events (births, deaths, marriages, etc) are
> particularly popular. Taken together, our findings open the door to a
> deeper understanding of Wikipedia's role in a global information economy
> where reliability is ever less certain, and source attribution ever more
> vital.
>
> Paper: https://arxiv.org/abs/2001.08614
>
>
> --
> Janna Layton (she, her)
> Administrative Assistant - Product & Technology
> Wikimedia Foundation 
>


-- 
Janna Layton (she, her)
Administrative Assistant - Product & Technology
Wikimedia Foundation 
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