Re: [Wikimedia-l] Sexual harassment

[Gnangarra]

>
> The code of conduct is not a law. People who are harassers are criminals
> and not above the law. Sexual harassment is a serious offense. Any kind
> of harrasment is an offense. Wikipedia s administrators are not the law
> and not above the law.

Wikipedia is not above the law.


The international aspects and the fact that WMF protects editors privacy
makes options outside the movement very limited to only the extreme end of
the scale. Beside the legal aspect its a cop out for the Community & WMF to
dismiss any harassment as something they cant do anything about, this
response is why AN/I is also a waste of time and why so much harassment
never gets dealt with, ultimately why the movement has difficulty in
attracting under represented groups

On Mon, 24 Aug 2020 at 13:14, Ανώνυμος Βικιπαιδιστής <
anonymuswikiped...@gmail.com> wrote:

> The code of conduct is not a law.
> People who are harassers are criminals and not above the law.
> Sexual harassment is a serious offense. Any kind of harrasment is an
> offense. Wikipedia s administrators are not the law and not above the law.
> Wikipedia is not above the law.
> People who seek help should be appointed to the right specialized
> authorities as the police and not discouraged to do so.
>
> Safety team from my experience, will not help any wikipedian/victim who
> with report a harrasment case. They are just another department of
> wikimedia foundation.
>
> Any people is important and count.
> Please take what ever actions you think is necessary.
>
> I believe you.
>
> Ανώνυμος Βικιπαιδιστής
>
>
> Στις Δευ, 24 Αυγ 2020, 7:39 π.μ. ο χρήστης Robert Myers <
> robert.my...@wikimedia.org.au> έγραψε:
>
> > And there the problem lies, going to local authorities (police) isn’t
> > going to be useful. Some authorities require the alleged crime to be
> > committed in their jurisdiction, which can be limited, anonymous nature
> of
> > the person who committed the alleged crime makes it difficult to identify
> > the individual(s), with it servers hosted outside the jurisdiction make
> it
> > harder to investigate. Also I have seen in the past, WP:LEGAL used
> against
> > those who have reported threats of physical violence or harassment
> > (physical stalking) to law enforcement.
> >
> > I do think there needs to be a off-wiki complaint process for serious
> > allegations, since on-wiki processes can be inappropriate and acts as a
> > chilling effect (since it is very open and public) on the victim(s). The
> > same situation can occur for alleged perpetrator(s), where the
> > allegation(s) are false or vexatious and malicious grievances.
> >
> > Maybe the Universal Code of Conduct might address this issue, it might
> not
> > as well.
> >
> > --
> > Robert Myers
> > robert.my...@wikimedia.org.au
> > http://www.wikimedia.org.au
> >
> > > On 24 Aug 2020, at 1:37 pm, Ανώνυμος Βικιπαιδιστής <
> > anonymuswikiped...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > If you ve been sexually harassed in wikipedia this is not a matter to
> be
> > > solved on a mailing list or by Safety team. Go to you local authorities
> > and
> > > report it. This is a very serious matter to just become an essay for
> > > someone or belive that it can be solved by administrators or safety
> team.
> > > Safety team in my harassment case told me to "politely" ask my
> harrasers
> > to
> > > stop harassing me. Please don t relay on them for such a serious
> matter!
> > > Please be safe and I m sure you can seek help by trained and serious
> > people
> > > by your local authorities.
> > > I wish someone could told me that in my case then and not point me to
> > > safety team. They will not help you.
> > >
> > > Ανώνυμος Βικιπαιδιστής
> > >
> > >
> > > Στις Δευ, 24 Αυγ 2020, 3:41 π.μ. ο χρήστης Gnangarra <
> > gnanga...@gmail.com>
> > > έγραψε:
> > >
> > >> If someone feels harassed then a public noticeboard is the last place
> to
> > >> send them for help,  that is an absolute failure of the community to
> > >> understand that the act of reporting is also doubling down on the
> harm.
> > >> Doing so publicly is indicating to the person committing the
> harassment
> > >> that they have succeeded in causing harm.
> > >>
> > >> This folks is the very reason why we fail to retain editors and breach
> > the
> > >> imbalance of editors and continue have trouble with bias.  Everyone
> > speaks
> > >> english but the cultural nuances of the language vary greatly with
> words
> > >> having multiple meanings and being used specifically to cause offense.
> > >>
> > >> The word cutie has its meanings;
> > >>
> > >>   -  of being nice looking when talking about kids and animals
> > >>
> > >> but once its used referring to an adult as part of a discussion its
> > changes
> > >> to that of them being;
> > >>
> > >>   - of being an arsehole
> > >>   - of being picky
> > >>   - and of having sexual connotations ranging from you are fuckable,
> to
> > >>   your sexual orientation.
> > >>
> > >> When these complaints get to something 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Sexual harassment

[Ανώνυμος Βικιπαιδιστής]

The code of conduct is not a law.
People who are harassers are criminals and not above the law.
Sexual harassment is a serious offense. Any kind of harrasment is an
offense. Wikipedia s administrators are not the law and not above the law.
Wikipedia is not above the law.
People who seek help should be appointed to the right specialized
authorities as the police and not discouraged to do so.

Safety team from my experience, will not help any wikipedian/victim who
with report a harrasment case. They are just another department of
wikimedia foundation.

Any people is important and count.
Please take what ever actions you think is necessary.

I believe you.

Ανώνυμος Βικιπαιδιστής


Στις Δευ, 24 Αυγ 2020, 7:39 π.μ. ο χρήστης Robert Myers <
robert.my...@wikimedia.org.au> έγραψε:

> And there the problem lies, going to local authorities (police) isn’t
> going to be useful. Some authorities require the alleged crime to be
> committed in their jurisdiction, which can be limited, anonymous nature of
> the person who committed the alleged crime makes it difficult to identify
> the individual(s), with it servers hosted outside the jurisdiction make it
> harder to investigate. Also I have seen in the past, WP:LEGAL used against
> those who have reported threats of physical violence or harassment
> (physical stalking) to law enforcement.
>
> I do think there needs to be a off-wiki complaint process for serious
> allegations, since on-wiki processes can be inappropriate and acts as a
> chilling effect (since it is very open and public) on the victim(s). The
> same situation can occur for alleged perpetrator(s), where the
> allegation(s) are false or vexatious and malicious grievances.
>
> Maybe the Universal Code of Conduct might address this issue, it might not
> as well.
>
> --
> Robert Myers
> robert.my...@wikimedia.org.au
> http://www.wikimedia.org.au
>
> > On 24 Aug 2020, at 1:37 pm, Ανώνυμος Βικιπαιδιστής <
> anonymuswikiped...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > If you ve been sexually harassed in wikipedia this is not a matter to be
> > solved on a mailing list or by Safety team. Go to you local authorities
> and
> > report it. This is a very serious matter to just become an essay for
> > someone or belive that it can be solved by administrators or safety team.
> > Safety team in my harassment case told me to "politely" ask my harrasers
> to
> > stop harassing me. Please don t relay on them for such a serious matter!
> > Please be safe and I m sure you can seek help by trained and serious
> people
> > by your local authorities.
> > I wish someone could told me that in my case then and not point me to
> > safety team. They will not help you.
> >
> > Ανώνυμος Βικιπαιδιστής
> >
> >
> > Στις Δευ, 24 Αυγ 2020, 3:41 π.μ. ο χρήστης Gnangarra <
> gnanga...@gmail.com>
> > έγραψε:
> >
> >> If someone feels harassed then a public noticeboard is the last place to
> >> send them for help,  that is an absolute failure of the community to
> >> understand that the act of reporting is also doubling down on the harm.
> >> Doing so publicly is indicating to the person committing the harassment
> >> that they have succeeded in causing harm.
> >>
> >> This folks is the very reason why we fail to retain editors and breach
> the
> >> imbalance of editors and continue have trouble with bias.  Everyone
> speaks
> >> english but the cultural nuances of the language vary greatly with words
> >> having multiple meanings and being used specifically to cause offense.
> >>
> >> The word cutie has its meanings;
> >>
> >>   -  of being nice looking when talking about kids and animals
> >>
> >> but once its used referring to an adult as part of a discussion its
> changes
> >> to that of them being;
> >>
> >>   - of being an arsehole
> >>   - of being picky
> >>   - and of having sexual connotations ranging from you are fuckable, to
> >>   your sexual orientation.
> >>
> >> When these complaints get to something like AN/I those cultural and
> >> linguistic nuances get dismissed and the person using them has gained a
> lot
> >> of power, self satisfaction, and endorsement of their harassment as
> being
> >> ok, with a bonus that other users are now also enabled to harass the
> >> complaining editor knowing full well that AN/I will do nothing.
> >>
> >> The bottom line is if a person feels harassed they have been harassed,
> >> whether we understand the depth of why they feel harassed is not
> relevant
> >> but that should not be a barrier to prevent further harassment.
> >>
> >>
> >>> On Mon, 24 Aug 2020 at 06:21, Isaac Olatunde  >
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hello Chris,
> >>>
> >>> This isn't a terribly bad advise, AFAICS.
> >>>
> >>> Harassments are treated on a case-by-case basis.
> >>>
> >>> So, if this is something you aren't comfortable discussing publicly,
> you
> >>> could email the Functionary team or ArbCom or similar body in that
> >>> community.
> >>>
> >>> If it's something that should be removed from public view, you could
> >>> contact the 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Sexual harassment

[Robert Myers]

And there the problem lies, going to local authorities (police) isn’t going to 
be useful. Some authorities require the alleged crime to be committed in their 
jurisdiction, which can be limited, anonymous nature of the person who 
committed the alleged crime makes it difficult to identify the individual(s), 
with it servers hosted outside the jurisdiction make it harder to investigate. 
Also I have seen in the past, WP:LEGAL used against those who have reported 
threats of physical violence or harassment (physical stalking) to law 
enforcement. 

I do think there needs to be a off-wiki complaint process for serious 
allegations, since on-wiki processes can be inappropriate and acts as a 
chilling effect (since it is very open and public) on the victim(s). The same 
situation can occur for alleged perpetrator(s), where the allegation(s) are 
false or vexatious and malicious grievances. 

Maybe the Universal Code of Conduct might address this issue, it might not as 
well. 

--
Robert Myers
robert.my...@wikimedia.org.au
http://www.wikimedia.org.au

> On 24 Aug 2020, at 1:37 pm, Ανώνυμος Βικιπαιδιστής 
>  wrote:
> 
> If you ve been sexually harassed in wikipedia this is not a matter to be
> solved on a mailing list or by Safety team. Go to you local authorities and
> report it. This is a very serious matter to just become an essay for
> someone or belive that it can be solved by administrators or safety team.
> Safety team in my harassment case told me to "politely" ask my harrasers to
> stop harassing me. Please don t relay on them for such a serious matter!
> Please be safe and I m sure you can seek help by trained and serious people
> by your local authorities.
> I wish someone could told me that in my case then and not point me to
> safety team. They will not help you.
> 
> Ανώνυμος Βικιπαιδιστής
> 
> 
> Στις Δευ, 24 Αυγ 2020, 3:41 π.μ. ο χρήστης Gnangarra 
> έγραψε:
> 
>> If someone feels harassed then a public noticeboard is the last place to
>> send them for help,  that is an absolute failure of the community to
>> understand that the act of reporting is also doubling down on the harm.
>> Doing so publicly is indicating to the person committing the harassment
>> that they have succeeded in causing harm.
>> 
>> This folks is the very reason why we fail to retain editors and breach the
>> imbalance of editors and continue have trouble with bias.  Everyone speaks
>> english but the cultural nuances of the language vary greatly with words
>> having multiple meanings and being used specifically to cause offense.
>> 
>> The word cutie has its meanings;
>> 
>>   -  of being nice looking when talking about kids and animals
>> 
>> but once its used referring to an adult as part of a discussion its changes
>> to that of them being;
>> 
>>   - of being an arsehole
>>   - of being picky
>>   - and of having sexual connotations ranging from you are fuckable, to
>>   your sexual orientation.
>> 
>> When these complaints get to something like AN/I those cultural and
>> linguistic nuances get dismissed and the person using them has gained a lot
>> of power, self satisfaction, and endorsement of their harassment as being
>> ok, with a bonus that other users are now also enabled to harass the
>> complaining editor knowing full well that AN/I will do nothing.
>> 
>> The bottom line is if a person feels harassed they have been harassed,
>> whether we understand the depth of why they feel harassed is not relevant
>> but that should not be a barrier to prevent further harassment.
>> 
>> 
>>> On Mon, 24 Aug 2020 at 06:21, Isaac Olatunde 
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hello Chris,
>>> 
>>> This isn't a terribly bad advise, AFAICS.
>>> 
>>> Harassments are treated on a case-by-case basis.
>>> 
>>> So, if this is something you aren't comfortable discussing publicly, you
>>> could email the Functionary team or ArbCom or similar body in that
>>> community.
>>> 
>>> If it's something that should be removed from public view, you could
>>> contact the oversight team.
>>> 
>>> I can't see the contents of the harassment, so I can only speak based on
>>> general principle.
>>> 
>>> Regards
>>> 
>>> Isaac
>>> 
>>> On Sun, 23 Aug 2020, 23:07 Chris Sherlock, 
>>> wrote:
>>> 
 To be clear, this is what I was advised:
 
 “ Harassment concerns can be reviewed under the appropriate community
 process. I would therefore advise you to report the edit summary to the
 appropriate channels on the wiki it occured. If this happened on
>> English
 Wikipedia, this would be the Administrator's board for incidents.
 I hope the above is helpful.”
 
 Chris
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
> On 24 Aug 2020, at 6:43 am, Chris Sherlock <
>> chris.sherloc...@gmail.com
 
 wrote:
> 
> Hello all,
> 
> I have been advised by the WMF that if anyone is concerned about
>> being
 sexually harassed they must report this to AN/I and there are no
>> private
 mechanisms to report this sort of thing.

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Sexual harassment

[Ανώνυμος Βικιπαιδιστής]

If you ve been sexually harassed in wikipedia this is not a matter to be
solved on a mailing list or by Safety team. Go to you local authorities and
report it. This is a very serious matter to just become an essay for
someone or belive that it can be solved by administrators or safety team.
Safety team in my harassment case told me to "politely" ask my harrasers to
stop harassing me. Please don t relay on them for such a serious matter!
Please be safe and I m sure you can seek help by trained and serious people
by your local authorities.
I wish someone could told me that in my case then and not point me to
safety team. They will not help you.

Ανώνυμος Βικιπαιδιστής


Στις Δευ, 24 Αυγ 2020, 3:41 π.μ. ο χρήστης Gnangarra 
έγραψε:

> If someone feels harassed then a public noticeboard is the last place to
> send them for help,  that is an absolute failure of the community to
> understand that the act of reporting is also doubling down on the harm.
> Doing so publicly is indicating to the person committing the harassment
> that they have succeeded in causing harm.
>
> This folks is the very reason why we fail to retain editors and breach the
> imbalance of editors and continue have trouble with bias.  Everyone speaks
> english but the cultural nuances of the language vary greatly with words
> having multiple meanings and being used specifically to cause offense.
>
> The word cutie has its meanings;
>
>-  of being nice looking when talking about kids and animals
>
> but once its used referring to an adult as part of a discussion its changes
> to that of them being;
>
>- of being an arsehole
>- of being picky
>- and of having sexual connotations ranging from you are fuckable, to
>your sexual orientation.
>
> When these complaints get to something like AN/I those cultural and
> linguistic nuances get dismissed and the person using them has gained a lot
> of power, self satisfaction, and endorsement of their harassment as being
> ok, with a bonus that other users are now also enabled to harass the
> complaining editor knowing full well that AN/I will do nothing.
>
> The bottom line is if a person feels harassed they have been harassed,
> whether we understand the depth of why they feel harassed is not relevant
> but that should not be a barrier to prevent further harassment.
>
>
> On Mon, 24 Aug 2020 at 06:21, Isaac Olatunde 
> wrote:
>
> > Hello Chris,
> >
> > This isn't a terribly bad advise, AFAICS.
> >
> > Harassments are treated on a case-by-case basis.
> >
> > So, if this is something you aren't comfortable discussing publicly, you
> > could email the Functionary team or ArbCom or similar body in that
> > community.
> >
> > If it's something that should be removed from public view, you could
> > contact the oversight team.
> >
> > I can't see the contents of the harassment, so I can only speak based on
> > general principle.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Isaac
> >
> > On Sun, 23 Aug 2020, 23:07 Chris Sherlock, 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > To be clear, this is what I was advised:
> > >
> > > “ Harassment concerns can be reviewed under the appropriate community
> > > process. I would therefore advise you to report the edit summary to the
> > > appropriate channels on the wiki it occured. If this happened on
> English
> > > Wikipedia, this would be the Administrator's board for incidents.
> > > I hope the above is helpful.”
> > >
> > > Chris
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> > >
> > > > On 24 Aug 2020, at 6:43 am, Chris Sherlock <
> chris.sherloc...@gmail.com
> > >
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hello all,
> > > >
> > > > I have been advised by the WMF that if anyone is concerned about
> being
> > > sexually harassed they must report this to AN/I and there are no
> private
> > > mechanisms to report this sort of thing.
> > > >
> > > > Is this for real?
> > > >
> > > > Chris Sherlock
> > > >
> > > > Sent from my iPhone
> > > ___
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > 
> > >
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
> >
>
>
> --
> GN.
>
> *Power of Diverse Collaboration*
> *Sharing knowledge brings people together*
> Wikimania Bangkok 2021
> August
> hosted by ESEAP
>
> Wikimania: https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Gnangarra
> Noongarpedia: 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Sexual harassment

[Gnangarra]

If someone feels harassed then a public noticeboard is the last place to
send them for help,  that is an absolute failure of the community to
understand that the act of reporting is also doubling down on the harm.
Doing so publicly is indicating to the person committing the harassment
that they have succeeded in causing harm.

This folks is the very reason why we fail to retain editors and breach the
imbalance of editors and continue have trouble with bias.  Everyone speaks
english but the cultural nuances of the language vary greatly with words
having multiple meanings and being used specifically to cause offense.

The word cutie has its meanings;

   -  of being nice looking when talking about kids and animals

but once its used referring to an adult as part of a discussion its changes
to that of them being;

   - of being an arsehole
   - of being picky
   - and of having sexual connotations ranging from you are fuckable, to
   your sexual orientation.

When these complaints get to something like AN/I those cultural and
linguistic nuances get dismissed and the person using them has gained a lot
of power, self satisfaction, and endorsement of their harassment as being
ok, with a bonus that other users are now also enabled to harass the
complaining editor knowing full well that AN/I will do nothing.

The bottom line is if a person feels harassed they have been harassed,
whether we understand the depth of why they feel harassed is not relevant
but that should not be a barrier to prevent further harassment.


On Mon, 24 Aug 2020 at 06:21, Isaac Olatunde 
wrote:

> Hello Chris,
>
> This isn't a terribly bad advise, AFAICS.
>
> Harassments are treated on a case-by-case basis.
>
> So, if this is something you aren't comfortable discussing publicly, you
> could email the Functionary team or ArbCom or similar body in that
> community.
>
> If it's something that should be removed from public view, you could
> contact the oversight team.
>
> I can't see the contents of the harassment, so I can only speak based on
> general principle.
>
> Regards
>
> Isaac
>
> On Sun, 23 Aug 2020, 23:07 Chris Sherlock, 
> wrote:
>
> > To be clear, this is what I was advised:
> >
> > “ Harassment concerns can be reviewed under the appropriate community
> > process. I would therefore advise you to report the edit summary to the
> > appropriate channels on the wiki it occured. If this happened on English
> > Wikipedia, this would be the Administrator's board for incidents.
> > I hope the above is helpful.”
> >
> > Chris
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > > On 24 Aug 2020, at 6:43 am, Chris Sherlock  >
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello all,
> > >
> > > I have been advised by the WMF that if anyone is concerned about being
> > sexually harassed they must report this to AN/I and there are no private
> > mechanisms to report this sort of thing.
> > >
> > > Is this for real?
> > >
> > > Chris Sherlock
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
> >
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
>


-- 
GN.

*Power of Diverse Collaboration*
*Sharing knowledge brings people together*
Wikimania Bangkok 2021
August
hosted by ESEAP

Wikimania: https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Gnangarra
Noongarpedia: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page
My print shop: https://www.redbubble.com/people/Gnangarra/shop?asc=u
___
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Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Sexual harassment

[Isaac Olatunde]

Hello Chris,

This isn't a terribly bad advise, AFAICS.

Harassments are treated on a case-by-case basis.

So, if this is something you aren't comfortable discussing publicly, you
could email the Functionary team or ArbCom or similar body in that
community.

If it's something that should be removed from public view, you could
contact the oversight team.

I can't see the contents of the harassment, so I can only speak based on
general principle.

Regards

Isaac

On Sun, 23 Aug 2020, 23:07 Chris Sherlock, 
wrote:

> To be clear, this is what I was advised:
>
> “ Harassment concerns can be reviewed under the appropriate community
> process. I would therefore advise you to report the edit summary to the
> appropriate channels on the wiki it occured. If this happened on English
> Wikipedia, this would be the Administrator's board for incidents.
> I hope the above is helpful.”
>
> Chris
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On 24 Aug 2020, at 6:43 am, Chris Sherlock 
> wrote:
> >
> > Hello all,
> >
> > I have been advised by the WMF that if anyone is concerned about being
> sexually harassed they must report this to AN/I and there are no private
> mechanisms to report this sort of thing.
> >
> > Is this for real?
> >
> > Chris Sherlock
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
>
___
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Sexual harassment

[Todd Allen]

It depends on the nature of the incident. If the harassment took place on
the wiki, yes, it should be reported via an on-wiki process since it does
not involve private information. On the English Wikipedia, that would
generally be AN/I.

If the harassment happened off-wiki (e.g., via harassing emails), on the
English Wikipedia it may be reported to the Arbitration Committee (
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee). Other
projects may have different processes for handling incidents which involve
off-wiki harassment.

Todd

On Sun, Aug 23, 2020 at 4:11 PM Isaac Olatunde 
wrote:

> Well, I don't know the fact directly but the standard procedure is to
> discuss it with a local administrator on the relevant talk page or notice
> board. So, Vermont is correct.
>
> The T does not usually take action in cases that can generally be handled
> by the local community. Thus, responses such as "falls outside the
> Foundation's remit" isn't bad in such cases.
>
> Regards.
>
> Isaac
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, 23 Aug 2020, 22:51 Chris Gates via Wikimedia-l, <
> wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> wrote:
>
> > Chris,
> >
> > More generally, conduct issues are handled locally. We do not have a
> > central authority to handle issues like this; local communities are, in
> the
> > vast majority of cases, capable of handling conduct problems of it’s
> > editors. Not to mention that T would be incapable of handling every
> minor
> > conduct problem.
> >
> > It also is not something that is usually emailed to emergency@; if
> there’s
> > extensive problems with harassment, and local functions do not work,
> > c...@wikimedia.org will get you in touch with T who can look into the
> > issue.
> >
> > However, you haven’t tried to handle this locally. Creating an ANI
> section,
> > seeing that people aren’t 100% in agreement with your preferred outcome,
> > and then removing it is not very helpful towards resolving this.
> >
> > From my somewhat limited looking into the events, there’s been some
> > problematic shows of incivility on from both parties, with WWGB using the
> > word “cutie” in an offhand edit summary. It isn’t appropriate, it
> certainly
> > didn’t improve their point, but calling it sexual harassment and hoping
> for
> > the WMF or others to take immediate and dire action without community
> input
> > is misleading and unrealistic. On a collaborative project, problems are
> > handled collaboratively with uninvolved editors looking at the issue
> from a
> > third party perspective, giving their input, and at some point an
> > administrator coming along to enact the consensus. That’s why
> noticeboards
> > of this type exist, which discuss and evaluate conduct issues to seek a
> > resolution. We do not know how other community members and admins would
> > have participated in the discussion because it was cut short.
> >
> > I noticed that you said, on Facebook, that you did not feel safe talking
> to
> > WWGB directly about it, and that you did not feel safe on ANI. I’m very
> > sorry to hear this; though I am not sure what you believe to be unsafe
> > about leaving a talk page message stating your having taken offense at
> > WWGB’s remarks, or asking for input from administrators and the community
> > to resolve the issue, those are the methods of fixing issues. If either
> > action were met with hostility, insult, or further harassment, there
> would
> > be a very clear and simple case for an administrator to take action, and
> > thus would have been much easier. If WWGB, however, apologized and agreed
> > not to continue with such conduct in the future, it would also have been
> > much easier. We don’t have a sort of secret police to handle issues in
> > private. The community processes exist for a reason, and when permitted
> to
> > take place, usually work.
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Vermont
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Aug 23, 2020 at 17:27 Aron Manning 
> wrote:
> >
> > > On Sun, 23 Aug 2020 at 22:43, Chris Sherlock <
> chris.sherloc...@gmail.com
> > >
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > I have been advised by the WMF that if anyone is concerned about
> being
> > > > sexually harassed they must report this to AN/I and there are no
> > private
> > > > mechanisms to report this sort of thing.
> > > >
> > > > Is this for real?
> > >
> > >
> > > Assuming you've contacted Trust, "falls outside of the
> > Foundation's
> > > remit" is a standard answer to receive as a regular editor.
> > >
> > > Bringing the issue to ANI it will most likely be ignored. If your issue
> > is
> > > with a long-term / established editor it has a significant chance to
> > > boomerang .
> > >
> > > Sadly, this is for real and somewhat the reason behind the UCoC
> proposal.
> > > Whether that will change this is another question.
> > >
> > > Aron
> > > ___
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Sexual harassment

[Isaac Olatunde]

Well, I don't know the fact directly but the standard procedure is to
discuss it with a local administrator on the relevant talk page or notice
board. So, Vermont is correct.

The T does not usually take action in cases that can generally be handled
by the local community. Thus, responses such as "falls outside the
Foundation's remit" isn't bad in such cases.

Regards.

Isaac




On Sun, 23 Aug 2020, 22:51 Chris Gates via Wikimedia-l, <
wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> wrote:

> Chris,
>
> More generally, conduct issues are handled locally. We do not have a
> central authority to handle issues like this; local communities are, in the
> vast majority of cases, capable of handling conduct problems of it’s
> editors. Not to mention that T would be incapable of handling every minor
> conduct problem.
>
> It also is not something that is usually emailed to emergency@; if there’s
> extensive problems with harassment, and local functions do not work,
> c...@wikimedia.org will get you in touch with T who can look into the
> issue.
>
> However, you haven’t tried to handle this locally. Creating an ANI section,
> seeing that people aren’t 100% in agreement with your preferred outcome,
> and then removing it is not very helpful towards resolving this.
>
> From my somewhat limited looking into the events, there’s been some
> problematic shows of incivility on from both parties, with WWGB using the
> word “cutie” in an offhand edit summary. It isn’t appropriate, it certainly
> didn’t improve their point, but calling it sexual harassment and hoping for
> the WMF or others to take immediate and dire action without community input
> is misleading and unrealistic. On a collaborative project, problems are
> handled collaboratively with uninvolved editors looking at the issue from a
> third party perspective, giving their input, and at some point an
> administrator coming along to enact the consensus. That’s why noticeboards
> of this type exist, which discuss and evaluate conduct issues to seek a
> resolution. We do not know how other community members and admins would
> have participated in the discussion because it was cut short.
>
> I noticed that you said, on Facebook, that you did not feel safe talking to
> WWGB directly about it, and that you did not feel safe on ANI. I’m very
> sorry to hear this; though I am not sure what you believe to be unsafe
> about leaving a talk page message stating your having taken offense at
> WWGB’s remarks, or asking for input from administrators and the community
> to resolve the issue, those are the methods of fixing issues. If either
> action were met with hostility, insult, or further harassment, there would
> be a very clear and simple case for an administrator to take action, and
> thus would have been much easier. If WWGB, however, apologized and agreed
> not to continue with such conduct in the future, it would also have been
> much easier. We don’t have a sort of secret police to handle issues in
> private. The community processes exist for a reason, and when permitted to
> take place, usually work.
>
> Best regards,
> Vermont
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 23, 2020 at 17:27 Aron Manning  wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 23 Aug 2020 at 22:43, Chris Sherlock  >
> > wrote:
> >
> > > I have been advised by the WMF that if anyone is concerned about being
> > > sexually harassed they must report this to AN/I and there are no
> private
> > > mechanisms to report this sort of thing.
> > >
> > > Is this for real?
> >
> >
> > Assuming you've contacted Trust, "falls outside of the
> Foundation's
> > remit" is a standard answer to receive as a regular editor.
> >
> > Bringing the issue to ANI it will most likely be ignored. If your issue
> is
> > with a long-term / established editor it has a significant chance to
> > boomerang .
> >
> > Sadly, this is for real and somewhat the reason behind the UCoC proposal.
> > Whether that will change this is another question.
> >
> > Aron
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
> >
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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> 
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Sexual harassment

[Chris Sherlock]

To be clear, this is what I was advised:

“ Harassment concerns can be reviewed under the appropriate community process. 
I would therefore advise you to report the edit summary to the appropriate 
channels on the wiki it occured. If this happened on English Wikipedia, this 
would be the Administrator's board for incidents.
I hope the above is helpful.”

Chris

Sent from my iPhone

> On 24 Aug 2020, at 6:43 am, Chris Sherlock  wrote:
> 
> Hello all, 
> 
> I have been advised by the WMF that if anyone is concerned about being 
> sexually harassed they must report this to AN/I and there are no private 
> mechanisms to report this sort of thing.
> 
> Is this for real?
> 
> Chris Sherlock
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Sexual harassment

[Chris Gates via Wikimedia-l]

Chris,

More generally, conduct issues are handled locally. We do not have a
central authority to handle issues like this; local communities are, in the
vast majority of cases, capable of handling conduct problems of it’s
editors. Not to mention that T would be incapable of handling every minor
conduct problem.

It also is not something that is usually emailed to emergency@; if there’s
extensive problems with harassment, and local functions do not work,
c...@wikimedia.org will get you in touch with T who can look into the issue.

However, you haven’t tried to handle this locally. Creating an ANI section,
seeing that people aren’t 100% in agreement with your preferred outcome,
and then removing it is not very helpful towards resolving this.

From my somewhat limited looking into the events, there’s been some
problematic shows of incivility on from both parties, with WWGB using the
word “cutie” in an offhand edit summary. It isn’t appropriate, it certainly
didn’t improve their point, but calling it sexual harassment and hoping for
the WMF or others to take immediate and dire action without community input
is misleading and unrealistic. On a collaborative project, problems are
handled collaboratively with uninvolved editors looking at the issue from a
third party perspective, giving their input, and at some point an
administrator coming along to enact the consensus. That’s why noticeboards
of this type exist, which discuss and evaluate conduct issues to seek a
resolution. We do not know how other community members and admins would
have participated in the discussion because it was cut short.

I noticed that you said, on Facebook, that you did not feel safe talking to
WWGB directly about it, and that you did not feel safe on ANI. I’m very
sorry to hear this; though I am not sure what you believe to be unsafe
about leaving a talk page message stating your having taken offense at
WWGB’s remarks, or asking for input from administrators and the community
to resolve the issue, those are the methods of fixing issues. If either
action were met with hostility, insult, or further harassment, there would
be a very clear and simple case for an administrator to take action, and
thus would have been much easier. If WWGB, however, apologized and agreed
not to continue with such conduct in the future, it would also have been
much easier. We don’t have a sort of secret police to handle issues in
private. The community processes exist for a reason, and when permitted to
take place, usually work.

Best regards,
Vermont


On Sun, Aug 23, 2020 at 17:27 Aron Manning  wrote:

> On Sun, 23 Aug 2020 at 22:43, Chris Sherlock 
> wrote:
>
> > I have been advised by the WMF that if anyone is concerned about being
> > sexually harassed they must report this to AN/I and there are no private
> > mechanisms to report this sort of thing.
> >
> > Is this for real?
>
>
> Assuming you've contacted Trust, "falls outside of the Foundation's
> remit" is a standard answer to receive as a regular editor.
>
> Bringing the issue to ANI it will most likely be ignored. If your issue is
> with a long-term / established editor it has a significant chance to
> boomerang .
>
> Sadly, this is for real and somewhat the reason behind the UCoC proposal.
> Whether that will change this is another question.
>
> Aron
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Sexual harassment

[Aron Manning]

On Sun, 23 Aug 2020 at 22:43, Chris Sherlock 
wrote:

> I have been advised by the WMF that if anyone is concerned about being
> sexually harassed they must report this to AN/I and there are no private
> mechanisms to report this sort of thing.
>
> Is this for real?


Assuming you've contacted Trust, "falls outside of the Foundation's
remit" is a standard answer to receive as a regular editor.

Bringing the issue to ANI it will most likely be ignored. If your issue is
with a long-term / established editor it has a significant chance to
boomerang .

Sadly, this is for real and somewhat the reason behind the UCoC proposal.
Whether that will change this is another question.

Aron
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Sexual harassment

[Ilario valdelli]

Do other kinds of harassment have a different procedure or are tollerated?

On 23/08/2020 22:43, Chris Sherlock wrote:

Hello all,

I have been advised by the WMF that if anyone is concerned about being sexually 
harassed they must report this to AN/I and there are no private mechanisms to 
report this sort of thing.

Is this for real?

Chris Sherlock

Sent from my iPhone
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--
Ilario Valdelli
Wikimedia CH
Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre
Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera
Switzerland - 8008 Zürich
Wikipedia: Ilario
Skype: valdelli
Tel: +41764821371
http://www.wikimedia.ch


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Sexual harassment

[Andy Mabbett]

On Sun, 23 Aug 2020 at 21:50, ktsquare  wrote:

>> they must report this to AN/I

> What is AN/I

   
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Sexual harassment

[Tito Dutta]

>> What is AN/I
:Administrators' Noticeboard/Incidents on-Wiki. This is an administrator's
noticeboard where one can report.

Thanks
User:Titodutta



On Mon, 24 Aug 2020 at 02:21, ktsquare  wrote:

> What is AN/I
>
> On Sun., Aug. 23, 2020, 4:43 p.m. Chris Sherlock, <
> chris.sherloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hello all,
> >
> > I have been advised by the WMF that if anyone is concerned about being
> > sexually harassed they must report this to AN/I and there are no private
> > mechanisms to report this sort of thing.
> >
> > Is this for real?
> >
> > Chris Sherlock
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
> >
> ___
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Sexual harassment

[Andy Mabbett]

On Sun, 23 Aug 2020 at 21:43, Chris Sherlock  wrote:

> I have been advised by the WMF that if anyone is concerned about being
> sexually harassed they must report this to AN/I and there are no private
> mechanisms to report this sort of thing.
>
> Is this for real?

Not according to:

   https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Harassment

and particularly:

   
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Harassment#Contact_the_Foundation%E2%80%99s_Trust_and_Safety_team


-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Sexual harassment

[ktsquare]

What is AN/I

On Sun., Aug. 23, 2020, 4:43 p.m. Chris Sherlock, <
chris.sherloc...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello all,
>
> I have been advised by the WMF that if anyone is concerned about being
> sexually harassed they must report this to AN/I and there are no private
> mechanisms to report this sort of thing.
>
> Is this for real?
>
> Chris Sherlock
>
> Sent from my iPhone
> ___
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> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
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>
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[Wikimedia-l] Sexual harassment

[Chris Sherlock]

Hello all, 

I have been advised by the WMF that if anyone is concerned about being sexually 
harassed they must report this to AN/I and there are no private mechanisms to 
report this sort of thing.

Is this for real?

Chris Sherlock

Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's discuss first features of Desktop Improvements coming to Vector

[Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga]

Thanks for bringing this topic!
At euwiki it has been some weeks we have experienced the new vector style, and 
it has some great things: you can be sure about how width images will take for 
any reader, you can create better galleries or even decide where to insert an 
image to avoid sandwiching.

BUT...

I think that the changes (even when finishing) will be too short on what we 
need (a real face change!) but it will annoy in the same amount to those who 
don't want any change at all. So, we are losing an opportunity to go on with 
big changes.

Best

Galder

From: Wikimedia-l  on behalf of Ala'a 
Najjar 
Sent: Saturday, August 22, 2020 10:06 PM
To: Wikimedia Mailing List 
Cc: ovasil...@wikimedia.org 
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's discuss first features of Desktop Improvements 
coming to Vector

Thanks for bring our attention to this Desktop Improvements.
I opened section about this on Arabic Wikipedia village pump 
https://w.wiki/a9S, so users can try it, and maybe there feedback can help 
Readers Web team.

Best,
Alaa
https://w.wiki/JNQ

-Original Message-
From: Wikimedia-l  On Behalf Of Vira 
Motorko
Sent: Saturday, August 22, 2020 1:01 PM
To: Wikimedia Mailing List‏ 
Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Let's discuss first features of Desktop Improvements 
coming to Vector

Hi all,

I don't see any messages about the Desktop Improvements to wikimedia-l, so I've 
decided to forward one from wikitech-l.

If I understand correctly, Desktop Improvements are changes to the desktop 
version of the Vector skin, which are to be built throughout the next year, 
features being added one by one. Several wikis already enjoy them by default, 
and users of other wikis can find a respective tick in their preferences to 
make new Vector visible.

Current features are said to not be permanent anyway but wouldn't it be good 
for more people to see them while they are still work in progress?

See email text and links below.
*--*
*Vira Motorko // Віра Моторко*
mobile: +380667740499 | facebook: vira.motorko 
 | wikipedia: Ата 


-- Forwarded message -
Від: Olga Vasileva 
Date: ср, 5 серп. 2020 о 15:33
Subject: [Wikitech-l] First desktop improvements features now available on 
early adopter wikis


Hi all,

We’re happy to announce that the first two of many changes focused on improving 
the desktop experience of the Vector skin [1] have been released as a user 
preference to all projects and as default on a set of early adopter wikis: 
Basque, Farsi, French, and Hebrew Wikipedias, French Wiktionary, and Portuguese 
Wikiversity.

Since its introduction in 2009, the Vector skin has changed little, while the 
needs of our readers and editors have shifted significantly, as have their 
expectations for a quality reading experience that focuses on the content 
itself. Over the next year, the readers web team [2] will be researching and 
building out improvements to the desktop experience based on research and 
existing tools built by our communities.

Our goal is to create a more welcoming reading and editing experience - 
something that feels familiar yet makes it easier and quicker to read, edit, 
and perform common functionality.

Our first change, a collapsible sidebar, allows users to collapse the lengthy 
menu on the left side of the page. We believe this change improves usability by 
allowing people to focus on the content itself - on reading, editing, or 
moderating.

Our second change introduces a maximum line width to our content on pages such 
as article pages and discussion pages. Studies have shown that limiting the 
width can lead to better retention of content, as well as a decrease in eye 
strain

You can opt into these features by unchecking “legacy vector” from the 
appearance tab of your user preferences.

We’d also like to note that these are the first of a series of changes and, as 
such, their visual characteristics are not permanent. Also - there might be 
bugs. If you notice an issue or would like to learn more about the project 
itself - please head to our project page [3].

Thank you!

Olga

[1] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Skin:Vector
[2] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Readers/Web/Team
[3] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Reading/Web/Desktop_Improvements
--
*Olga Vasileva* // Senior Product Manager // Web 
https://wikimediafoundation.org/


*Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in
the sum of all knowledge. That's our commitment. Donate
. *
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