Re: [Wikimedia-l] Your support is wanted: The WMF Board of Trustees is looking for a new Board member

2013-02-18 Thread James Salsman
Jan-Bart de Vreede wrote:
...
 if you have questions that you think we should ask: feel free to suggest them 
 here :)

I have these ten questions:

1. What do you think a reasonable goal for the growth of the Wikimedia
Education Program over the next five years is?

2. Do you believe that the Foundation should establish an endowment?
If so, how large do you think such an endowment should be; in
particular, should the Foundation establish an endowment large enough
to subsist at present staffing levels and growth rates from current
investment grade bond interest rates without accepting additional
donations? If so, over how many years do you think it would be most
appropriate to establish such an endowment?

3. How often do you think the Foundation should propose advocacy
actions to the community? Do you believe the Foundation should survey
the opinion of the community and donors on this question?

4. Should the Foundation meet or exceed Silicon Valley competitive pay
to attract and retain the best talent while competing with firms able
to offer equity participation? Do you believe the Foundation should
survey the opinion of the community and donors on this question? Why
or why not?

5. Should the Foundation establish a system of awarding employee
bonuses in amounts determined by anonymous peer evaluations? Why or
why not?

6. Some proportion of long term project editors are impoverished,
probably within a few percentage points of the impoverished proportion
of the population as a whole. How do you think the Foundation could
best assist impoverished long term volunteers? Do you think it should?
Why or why not?

7. To what extent do you believe the Foundation should reimburse
travel and content development expenses for Wikinews contributors? In
particular, if you were to propose a pilot grant program to grant
travel and expense funds directly to individual Wikinews reporters,
how many such awards would you begin with and how would you measure
their effectiveness?

8. PeerWise is a popular closed-source assessment question and answer
database (http://peerwise.cs.auckland.ac.nz/) used in hundreds of
higher education institutions. Unlike textbooks, traditional courses,
MOOCs, and Moodle-style courses, PeerWise question databases can and
often are populated entirely by learners, with answers reviewed in a
style very similar to wiki content. Do you believe it would be
appropriate for the Foundation to develop an open source version of
PeerWise? Why or why not?

9. Do you believe the Foundation should employ professional fact
checkers who would not edit reader-facing content on the projects, but
who would be available to research questions pertaining to content
disputes at the request of projects' dispute resolution volunteers
(e.g. Wikipedia mediators) to prepare reports to help volunteers
resolve content disputes? Why or why not? Do you believe the
Foundation should survey the opinion of the community and donors on
this question?

10. What is your experience with editing or otherwise supporting
Foundation projects?

Sincerely,
James Salsman

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimania 2013 scholarship now accepting application

2013-02-18 Thread Liam Wyatt
On Monday, 18 February 2013, Abbas Mahmood wrote:

  From: liamwy...@gmail.com javascript:;
  Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 11:47:06 +
  To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org javascript:;
  Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimania 2013 scholarship now accepting
 application
 
 
   Hong Kong is an international gourmet paradise. Please use less than
 200
  words to describe your favourite dish of food.
 
  Is this an English-language test? Or, is this to help determine the best
  catering options? Or something else?

 +1 to what Liam asked. I honestly don't understand the premise of that
 question in the scholarship application form.
 Abbas.


Upon further questioning I was informed that:

This question is referring to the selection criteria #4 Fluency of
English language.  

So... Apparently this is where you are expected to write something that
convinces people you have a firm grasp of English. Unfortunately, this is a
written test, not an oral test - because an oral test might be quite
useful. I know many people from my own country and other
English-native-speaking countries that are officially literate but when
asked to speak in a formal setting (or even semi-formal situation like
Wikimania) are incapable of clear enunciation, diction, grammar,
intonation, accent and speed. Certainly, they can be understood by *other*
native English speakers but they have no concept of how difficult it is for
non-native speakers to understand them.

Perhaps a mandatory class for native speakers before the conference
entitled:
Speak English, like, more good 'n stuff for all y'all. Mmm'kay?




-- 
wittylama.com
Peace, love  metadata
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimania 2013 scholarship now accepting application

2013-02-18 Thread Lodewijk
oh... so replying with I will bring my own food wasn't such a good idea
after all? ;-)

2013/2/18 Liam Wyatt liamwy...@gmail.com

 On Monday, 18 February 2013, Abbas Mahmood wrote:

   From: liamwy...@gmail.com javascript:;
   Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 11:47:06 +
   To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org javascript:;
   Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimania 2013 scholarship now accepting
  application
  
  
Hong Kong is an international gourmet paradise. Please use less than
  200
   words to describe your favourite dish of food.
  
   Is this an English-language test? Or, is this to help determine the
 best
   catering options? Or something else?
 
  +1 to what Liam asked. I honestly don't understand the premise of that
  question in the scholarship application form.
  Abbas.
 

 Upon further questioning I was informed that:

 This question is referring to the selection criteria #4 Fluency of
 English language.  

 So... Apparently this is where you are expected to write something that
 convinces people you have a firm grasp of English. Unfortunately, this is a
 written test, not an oral test - because an oral test might be quite
 useful. I know many people from my own country and other
 English-native-speaking countries that are officially literate but when
 asked to speak in a formal setting (or even semi-formal situation like
 Wikimania) are incapable of clear enunciation, diction, grammar,
 intonation, accent and speed. Certainly, they can be understood by *other*
 native English speakers but they have no concept of how difficult it is for
 non-native speakers to understand them.

 Perhaps a mandatory class for native speakers before the conference
 entitled:
 Speak English, like, more good 'n stuff for all y'all. Mmm'kay?




 --
 wittylama.com
 Peace, love  metadata
 ___
 Wikimedia-l mailing list
 Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
 Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimania 2013 scholarship now accepting application

2013-02-18 Thread Yaroslav M. Blanter

On Mon, 18 Feb 2013 10:52:13 +0100, Lodewijk wrote:
oh... so replying with I will bring my own food wasn't such a good 
idea

after all? ;-)



I guess if you have written somewhere that you are Dutch this one 
becomes redundant. Everybody knows that Dutch bring their own food 
everywhere.


Cheers
Yaroslav


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimania 2013 scholarship now accepting application

2013-02-18 Thread Liam Wyatt
Yes, I think that writing I will bring Stroopwafels gives you an
automatic extra 10points in the scholarship assessment ;-)

wittylama.com
Peace, love  metadata


On 18 February 2013 21:05, Yaroslav M. Blanter pute...@mccme.ru wrote:

 On Mon, 18 Feb 2013 10:52:13 +0100, Lodewijk wrote:

 oh... so replying with I will bring my own food wasn't such a good idea
 after all? ;-)


 I guess if you have written somewhere that you are Dutch this one becomes
 redundant. Everybody knows that Dutch bring their own food everywhere.

 Cheers
 Yaroslav



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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Your support is wanted: The WMF Board of Trustees is looking for a new Board member

2013-02-18 Thread Jan-Bart de Vreede
Hey 

Thanks!

I am sure that Alice is grateful for the input. I must confess though that I 
think that most of these questions require a deep knowledge of the movement and 
the community and as such disqualify a lot of potential candidates… (I would 
hazard a guess that none of the past appointed candidates (including myself) 
were not able to answer 80% of these questions until about 6 months on the 
job. So are you proposing these questions to select new candidates or are you 
simply trying to get attention for these issues (as you have been doing over 
the past months… which is fair enough to some degree?)

(and to be fair: at this point, with all the experience I have within the 
movement I would want to see most of these decisions researched before 
committing to a point of view)

Jan-Bart



On Feb 18, 2013, at 9:19 AM, James Salsman jsals...@gmail.com wrote:

 Jan-Bart de Vreede wrote:
 ...
 if you have questions that you think we should ask: feel free to suggest 
 them here :)
 
 I have these ten questions:
 
 1. What do you think a reasonable goal for the growth of the Wikimedia
 Education Program over the next five years is?
 
 2. Do you believe that the Foundation should establish an endowment?
 If so, how large do you think such an endowment should be; in
 particular, should the Foundation establish an endowment large enough
 to subsist at present staffing levels and growth rates from current
 investment grade bond interest rates without accepting additional
 donations? If so, over how many years do you think it would be most
 appropriate to establish such an endowment?
 
 3. How often do you think the Foundation should propose advocacy
 actions to the community? Do you believe the Foundation should survey
 the opinion of the community and donors on this question?
 
 4. Should the Foundation meet or exceed Silicon Valley competitive pay
 to attract and retain the best talent while competing with firms able
 to offer equity participation? Do you believe the Foundation should
 survey the opinion of the community and donors on this question? Why
 or why not?
 
 5. Should the Foundation establish a system of awarding employee
 bonuses in amounts determined by anonymous peer evaluations? Why or
 why not?
 
 6. Some proportion of long term project editors are impoverished,
 probably within a few percentage points of the impoverished proportion
 of the population as a whole. How do you think the Foundation could
 best assist impoverished long term volunteers? Do you think it should?
 Why or why not?
 
 7. To what extent do you believe the Foundation should reimburse
 travel and content development expenses for Wikinews contributors? In
 particular, if you were to propose a pilot grant program to grant
 travel and expense funds directly to individual Wikinews reporters,
 how many such awards would you begin with and how would you measure
 their effectiveness?
 
 8. PeerWise is a popular closed-source assessment question and answer
 database (http://peerwise.cs.auckland.ac.nz/) used in hundreds of
 higher education institutions. Unlike textbooks, traditional courses,
 MOOCs, and Moodle-style courses, PeerWise question databases can and
 often are populated entirely by learners, with answers reviewed in a
 style very similar to wiki content. Do you believe it would be
 appropriate for the Foundation to develop an open source version of
 PeerWise? Why or why not?
 
 9. Do you believe the Foundation should employ professional fact
 checkers who would not edit reader-facing content on the projects, but
 who would be available to research questions pertaining to content
 disputes at the request of projects' dispute resolution volunteers
 (e.g. Wikipedia mediators) to prepare reports to help volunteers
 resolve content disputes? Why or why not? Do you believe the
 Foundation should survey the opinion of the community and donors on
 this question?
 
 10. What is your experience with editing or otherwise supporting
 Foundation projects?
 
 Sincerely,
 James Salsman


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Your support is wanted: The WMF Board of Trustees is looking for a new Board member

2013-02-18 Thread David Gerard
On 18 February 2013 08:19, James Salsman jsals...@gmail.com wrote:

 I have these ten questions:


This is ridiculously inside-baseball stuff. It strikes me as possibly
a bad idea to turn board selection into something like en:wp RFA.


- d.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Your support is wanted: The WMF Board of Trustees is looking for a new Board member

2013-02-18 Thread Everton Zanella Alvarenga
Hi,

sure I didn't mean every external consultancy is evil. Sorry if I
sounded like that. Firstly, the world is not divided between good and
evil, like if we had an axis of evil. :P

Just as an example, the same company I just criticized had a better
performance in another country. Things can vary a lot and I am sure
people in charge of the particular process are aware of that. I just
wanted to remind a particular case that I believe is worth studying.

And I do think sometimes to have an external consultancy can help us
to diminish our own bias.  ;)

Tom

On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 9:52 AM, Jan-Bart de Vreede
jdevre...@wikimedia.org wrote:
 Hi

 Sounded like good intervention, thanks for reminding me :)

 Truth is of course that board Governance Committee is driving this process 
 together with Gayle. That means that multiple community (s)elected board 
 members are involved in the initial screening and that the whole board will 
 be included in the final selection.

 This would also be a good opportunity to make a small point: not all external 
 consultancy is evil :) As a community we tend to be naturally suspicious of 
 people that get paid a lot of money for tasks that theoretically could 
 also be done my the community… There is a good reason why we sometimes rely 
 on paid external advisors, some of which were given by Gayle.

 m|Oppenheim in particular has been a great partner in WMF hiring with great 
 results, and I hope that they can be as effective in this search (which we 
 hope you can help out with by suggesting good candidates to them)

 Regards

 Jan-Bart



-- 
Everton Zanella Alvarenga (also Tom)
A life spent making mistakes is not only more honorable, but more
useful than a life spent doing nothing.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Your support is wanted: The WMF Board of Trustees is looking for a new Board member

2013-02-18 Thread cyrano
I don't think it's about childish beliefs about evil. Money has a real 
influence, conflicts of interests are a real thing, and opacity at any 
stage allow abuses. It has been shown countless times in countless 
situations, empirically and scientifically, that people in power WILL 
use it to keep it, as much as they can.
When an entity is using its influence to determine who will supervise 
it, it's a matter of keeping the power of self-determination. You may 
agree or not with this strategy, but there is no way to lift doubts 
about the fairness of such appointment and obtain a clean cut legitimacy 
from such premises.


Cheers.


Le 18/02/2013 09:52, Jan-Bart de Vreede a écrit :

Hi

Sounded like good intervention, thanks for reminding me :)

Truth is of course that board Governance Committee is driving this process 
together with Gayle. That means that multiple community (s)elected board 
members are involved in the initial screening and that the whole board will be 
included in the final selection.

This would also be a good opportunity to make a small point: not all external consultancy is evil 
:) As a community we tend to be naturally suspicious of people that get paid a lot of 
money for tasks that theoretically could also be done my the community… There is a good 
reason why we sometimes rely on paid external advisors, some of which were given by Gayle.

m|Oppenheim in particular has been a great partner in WMF hiring with great 
results, and I hope that they can be as effective in this search (which we hope 
you can help out with by suggesting good candidates to them)

Regards

Jan-Bart


On Feb 18, 2013, at 1:23 PM, Everton Zanella Alvarenga t...@wikimedia.org 
wrote:


Hi all.

I would like to recommend to see the Brazil case where the recruitment
of the coordinator of the Catalyst Project was done in partnership
with the community

http://blog.wikimedia.org/2012/01/11/brazil-recruiting-and-partnership-with-the-community-moves-forward/

After the community noticed the mistake being done in hiring and
expensive and useless headhunter, this was critized
http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.org.wikimedia.brazil/161 and,
fortunately, promptly listened by Wikimedia Foundation people in
charge of the process. The community even had the idea of a more open
and transparent process, where the candidates would engage in a wiki
task - four finalists for the whole process engaged in such task. Also
in the interview with two wikimedians, the 10 candidates could have a
taste of what they would expect. :)

We all saw the dozens of mistakes of this headhunters, that luckly
were solved on time by the community, improving a lot the final
results. Not saying the model shouldn't be adapted and improved, it
must. And after all, no one better than locals to tell about their own
community.

Best,

Tom

On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 9:11 AM, Jan-Bart de Vreede
jdevre...@wikimedia.org wrote:

Hey

Thanks!

I am sure that Alice is grateful for the input. I must confess though that I think that 
most of these questions require a deep knowledge of the movement and the community and as 
such disqualify a lot of potential candidates… (I would hazard a guess that none of the 
past appointed candidates (including myself) were not able to answer 80% of these 
questions until about 6 months on the job. So are you proposing these 
questions to select new candidates or are you simply trying to get attention for these 
issues (as you have been doing over the past months… which is fair enough to some degree?)

(and to be fair: at this point, with all the experience I have within the 
movement I would want to see most of these decisions researched before 
committing to a point of view)

Jan-Bart



On Feb 18, 2013, at 9:19 AM, James Salsman jsals...@gmail.com wrote:


Jan-Bart de Vreede wrote:

...
if you have questions that you think we should ask: feel free to suggest them 
here :)

I have these ten questions:

1. What do you think a reasonable goal for the growth of the Wikimedia
Education Program over the next five years is?

2. Do you believe that the Foundation should establish an endowment?
If so, how large do you think such an endowment should be; in
particular, should the Foundation establish an endowment large enough
to subsist at present staffing levels and growth rates from current
investment grade bond interest rates without accepting additional
donations? If so, over how many years do you think it would be most
appropriate to establish such an endowment?

3. How often do you think the Foundation should propose advocacy
actions to the community? Do you believe the Foundation should survey
the opinion of the community and donors on this question?

4. Should the Foundation meet or exceed Silicon Valley competitive pay
to attract and retain the best talent while competing with firms able
to offer equity participation? Do you believe the Foundation should
survey the opinion of the community and donors on this question? Why
or why 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimania 2013 scholarship now accepting application

2013-02-18 Thread Deryck Chan
No, because you haven't described what you're bringing :)

On the other hand, a detailed, grammatically correct description of
stroopwafels will almost certainly gain full marks for the English ability
criterion. (And perhaps a bonus for interest in Wikimania if you make a
good case)

On 18 February 2013 09:52, Lodewijk lodew...@effeietsanders.org wrote:

 oh... so replying with I will bring my own food wasn't such a good idea
 after all? ;-)

 2013/2/18 Liam Wyatt liamwy...@gmail.com

  On Monday, 18 February 2013, Abbas Mahmood wrote:
 
From: liamwy...@gmail.com javascript:;
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 11:47:06 +
To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org javascript:;
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimania 2013 scholarship now accepting
   application
   
   
 Hong Kong is an international gourmet paradise. Please use less
 than
   200
words to describe your favourite dish of food.
   
Is this an English-language test? Or, is this to help determine the
  best
catering options? Or something else?
  
   +1 to what Liam asked. I honestly don't understand the premise of that
   question in the scholarship application form.
   Abbas.
  
 
  Upon further questioning I was informed that:
 
  This question is referring to the selection criteria #4 Fluency of
  English language.  
 
  So... Apparently this is where you are expected to write something that
  convinces people you have a firm grasp of English. Unfortunately, this
 is a
  written test, not an oral test - because an oral test might be quite
  useful. I know many people from my own country and other
  English-native-speaking countries that are officially literate but when
  asked to speak in a formal setting (or even semi-formal situation like
  Wikimania) are incapable of clear enunciation, diction, grammar,
  intonation, accent and speed. Certainly, they can be understood by
 *other*
  native English speakers but they have no concept of how difficult it is
 for
  non-native speakers to understand them.
 
  Perhaps a mandatory class for native speakers before the conference
  entitled:
  Speak English, like, more good 'n stuff for all y'all. Mmm'kay?
 
 
 
 
  --
  wittylama.com
  Peace, love  metadata
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Your support is wanted: The WMF Board of Trustees is looking for a new Board member

2013-02-18 Thread Thomas Dalton
I quite like questions 2, 6, 9 and 10 - the answers to those should
help to show how well applicants understand our culture and what new
insights they can bring to the table. The others are either too
obscure for most applicants to be able to give an informed answer or
aren't really things the board should be worrying about.

On 18 February 2013 08:19, James Salsman jsals...@gmail.com wrote:
 Jan-Bart de Vreede wrote:
...
 if you have questions that you think we should ask: feel free to suggest 
 them here :)

 I have these ten questions:

 1. What do you think a reasonable goal for the growth of the Wikimedia
 Education Program over the next five years is?

 2. Do you believe that the Foundation should establish an endowment?
 If so, how large do you think such an endowment should be; in
 particular, should the Foundation establish an endowment large enough
 to subsist at present staffing levels and growth rates from current
 investment grade bond interest rates without accepting additional
 donations? If so, over how many years do you think it would be most
 appropriate to establish such an endowment?

 3. How often do you think the Foundation should propose advocacy
 actions to the community? Do you believe the Foundation should survey
 the opinion of the community and donors on this question?

 4. Should the Foundation meet or exceed Silicon Valley competitive pay
 to attract and retain the best talent while competing with firms able
 to offer equity participation? Do you believe the Foundation should
 survey the opinion of the community and donors on this question? Why
 or why not?

 5. Should the Foundation establish a system of awarding employee
 bonuses in amounts determined by anonymous peer evaluations? Why or
 why not?

 6. Some proportion of long term project editors are impoverished,
 probably within a few percentage points of the impoverished proportion
 of the population as a whole. How do you think the Foundation could
 best assist impoverished long term volunteers? Do you think it should?
 Why or why not?

 7. To what extent do you believe the Foundation should reimburse
 travel and content development expenses for Wikinews contributors? In
 particular, if you were to propose a pilot grant program to grant
 travel and expense funds directly to individual Wikinews reporters,
 how many such awards would you begin with and how would you measure
 their effectiveness?

 8. PeerWise is a popular closed-source assessment question and answer
 database (http://peerwise.cs.auckland.ac.nz/) used in hundreds of
 higher education institutions. Unlike textbooks, traditional courses,
 MOOCs, and Moodle-style courses, PeerWise question databases can and
 often are populated entirely by learners, with answers reviewed in a
 style very similar to wiki content. Do you believe it would be
 appropriate for the Foundation to develop an open source version of
 PeerWise? Why or why not?

 9. Do you believe the Foundation should employ professional fact
 checkers who would not edit reader-facing content on the projects, but
 who would be available to research questions pertaining to content
 disputes at the request of projects' dispute resolution volunteers
 (e.g. Wikipedia mediators) to prepare reports to help volunteers
 resolve content disputes? Why or why not? Do you believe the
 Foundation should survey the opinion of the community and donors on
 this question?

 10. What is your experience with editing or otherwise supporting
 Foundation projects?

 Sincerely,
 James Salsman

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Your support is wanted: The WMF Board of Trustees is looking for a new Board member

2013-02-18 Thread Anders Wennersten
I would like to promote the idea that this person should be a supporter 
of counties/language that is less fortunate then most of us, ie where 
free expression of speech is in threat and where we now see an 
unfortunate trend to limit the free Internet access.


I have spoken with colleagues from Russia and Ukraine and am utterly 
impressed by their perseverance and idealistic drive in a real tough 
environment. I also see the success of the Arabic wp as one of the major 
achievement the last coupe of years. I have no idea what it looks like 
in Uzbek Wikipedia or Aszerbadjan wikipedia and wonder what is just now 
happening in the Georgians one who have had success.


With a Board member who knows of these realties from inside (being an 
experienced wikipedian?) I could hope that we as a Movement could act 
more provocative to promote Free Knowledge for All even where it now 
seems there are powers wanting to sabotage this our vision


Anders







Alice Wiegand skrev 2013-02-17 00:55:

Hi everyone,

as you know, we have one vacant appointed seat on the Board of Trustees. We
have asked m/Oppenheim Associates to assist us in finding a new board
member and and we are reaching out to the community for suggestions and
nominations.

The Board functions as a governance body that is ultimately responsible for
the Wikimedia Foundation and its activities, supervises the disposition and
solicitation of donations, and evaluates the organization’s Executive
Director who leads all Foundation staff. As arguably the most influential
and respected organization in the free knowledge movement, the Wikimedia
Foundation and its Board have a great responsibility for setting policy
deliberately and with due consideration for the diverse interests of a
truly global community. To find out more about the responsibilities and
workings of the board you can have a look at the Board
manualhttp://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_board_manual
.

As with any search process we will be communicating with a lot of potential
candidates to see if we are a good match. The Board’s objective is to use
this search to strengthen its competence with regards to board governance,
grantmaking, strategy, and expertise with regions where Wikimedia is trying
to make rapid strides in the growth of our projects.

Board terms are for a two year period. Compared to other boards the time
commitment is very significant. The Board of Trustees meets four times a
year, twice in San Francisco and twice in changing locations around the
globe. Meetings take two days and travel can add another two days to each
meeting. In addition, the Board communicates frequently by email and
Internet Relay Chat (IRC) as it navigates policy issues. This can absorb
4-10 hours weekly. Board members also regularly engage with the Community
through wiki pages.

We think that the WMF would benefit from a Board member who has experience
with organizations that have grown and evolved rapidly, and who understands
how boards can evolve to provide appropriate governance support in these
changing circumstances. Experience with international, community-driven,
consensus organizations is also important as the Foundation would not exist
without the community.

We would like to call upon you to help us out with finding the right
individual. A complete position description can be found
herehttp://moppenheim.com/searches/links/Wikimedia%20Foundation%20-%20Board%20Member%20position%20description%20-%20final.pdfand
additional information can be found at
www.moppenheim.com and www.wikimediafoundation.org. Your suggestions and
nominations are very welcome. Please feel free to reach out to your
networks and distribute this note as you deem appropriate.

Interested individuals should contact Lisa Grossman  li...@moppenheim.com




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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Your support is wanted: The WMF Board of Trustees is looking for a new Board member

2013-02-18 Thread Jan-Bart de Vreede
Hey

And I was not responding specifically to you, no worries!

Jan-Bart


On Feb 18, 2013, at 2:01 PM, Everton Zanella Alvarenga t...@wikimedia.org 
wrote:

 Hi,
 
 sure I didn't mean every external consultancy is evil. Sorry if I
 sounded like that. Firstly, the world is not divided between good and
 evil, like if we had an axis of evil. :P
 
 Just as an example, the same company I just criticized had a better
 performance in another country. Things can vary a lot and I am sure
 people in charge of the particular process are aware of that. I just
 wanted to remind a particular case that I believe is worth studying.
 
 And I do think sometimes to have an external consultancy can help us
 to diminish our own bias.  ;)
 
 Tom
 
 On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 9:52 AM, Jan-Bart de Vreede
 jdevre...@wikimedia.org wrote:
 Hi
 
 Sounded like good intervention, thanks for reminding me :)
 
 Truth is of course that board Governance Committee is driving this process 
 together with Gayle. That means that multiple community (s)elected board 
 members are involved in the initial screening and that the whole board will 
 be included in the final selection.
 
 This would also be a good opportunity to make a small point: not all 
 external consultancy is evil :) As a community we tend to be naturally 
 suspicious of people that get paid a lot of money for tasks that 
 theoretically could also be done my the community… There is a good reason 
 why we sometimes rely on paid external advisors, some of which were given by 
 Gayle.
 
 m|Oppenheim in particular has been a great partner in WMF hiring with great 
 results, and I hope that they can be as effective in this search (which we 
 hope you can help out with by suggesting good candidates to them)
 
 Regards
 
 Jan-Bart
 
 
 
 -- 
 Everton Zanella Alvarenga (also Tom)
 A life spent making mistakes is not only more honorable, but more
 useful than a life spent doing nothing.
 
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Your support is wanted: The WMF Board of Trustees is looking for a new Board member

2013-02-18 Thread Jan-Bart de Vreede
Hey

I seriously can't follow this, could you explain?

Jan-Bart

On Feb 18, 2013, at 2:11 PM, cyrano cyrano.faw...@gmail.com wrote:

 I don't think it's about childish beliefs about evil. Money has a real 
 influence, conflicts of interests are a real thing, and opacity at any stage 
 allow abuses. It has been shown countless times in countless situations, 
 empirically and scientifically, that people in power WILL use it to keep it, 
 as much as they can.
 When an entity is using its influence to determine who will supervise it, 
 it's a matter of keeping the power of self-determination. You may agree or 
 not with this strategy, but there is no way to lift doubts about the fairness 
 of such appointment and obtain a clean cut legitimacy from such premises.
 
 Cheers.
 
 
 Le 18/02/2013 09:52, Jan-Bart de Vreede a écrit :
 Hi
 
 Sounded like good intervention, thanks for reminding me :)
 
 Truth is of course that board Governance Committee is driving this process 
 together with Gayle. That means that multiple community (s)elected board 
 members are involved in the initial screening and that the whole board will 
 be included in the final selection.
 
 This would also be a good opportunity to make a small point: not all 
 external consultancy is evil :) As a community we tend to be naturally 
 suspicious of people that get paid a lot of money for tasks that 
 theoretically could also be done my the community… There is a good reason 
 why we sometimes rely on paid external advisors, some of which were given by 
 Gayle.
 
 m|Oppenheim in particular has been a great partner in WMF hiring with great 
 results, and I hope that they can be as effective in this search (which we 
 hope you can help out with by suggesting good candidates to them)
 
 Regards
 
 Jan-Bart
 
 
 On Feb 18, 2013, at 1:23 PM, Everton Zanella Alvarenga t...@wikimedia.org 
 wrote:
 
 Hi all.
 
 I would like to recommend to see the Brazil case where the recruitment
 of the coordinator of the Catalyst Project was done in partnership
 with the community
 
 http://blog.wikimedia.org/2012/01/11/brazil-recruiting-and-partnership-with-the-community-moves-forward/
 
 After the community noticed the mistake being done in hiring and
 expensive and useless headhunter, this was critized
 http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.org.wikimedia.brazil/161 and,
 fortunately, promptly listened by Wikimedia Foundation people in
 charge of the process. The community even had the idea of a more open
 and transparent process, where the candidates would engage in a wiki
 task - four finalists for the whole process engaged in such task. Also
 in the interview with two wikimedians, the 10 candidates could have a
 taste of what they would expect. :)
 
 We all saw the dozens of mistakes of this headhunters, that luckly
 were solved on time by the community, improving a lot the final
 results. Not saying the model shouldn't be adapted and improved, it
 must. And after all, no one better than locals to tell about their own
 community.
 
 Best,
 
 Tom
 
 On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 9:11 AM, Jan-Bart de Vreede
 jdevre...@wikimedia.org wrote:
 Hey
 
 Thanks!
 
 I am sure that Alice is grateful for the input. I must confess though that 
 I think that most of these questions require a deep knowledge of the 
 movement and the community and as such disqualify a lot of potential 
 candidates… (I would hazard a guess that none of the past appointed 
 candidates (including myself) were not able to answer 80% of these 
 questions until about 6 months on the job. So are you proposing these 
 questions to select new candidates or are you simply trying to get 
 attention for these issues (as you have been doing over the past months… 
 which is fair enough to some degree?)
 
 (and to be fair: at this point, with all the experience I have within the 
 movement I would want to see most of these decisions researched before 
 committing to a point of view)
 
 Jan-Bart
 
 
 
 On Feb 18, 2013, at 9:19 AM, James Salsman jsals...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 Jan-Bart de Vreede wrote:
 ...
 if you have questions that you think we should ask: feel free to suggest 
 them here :)
 I have these ten questions:
 
 1. What do you think a reasonable goal for the growth of the Wikimedia
 Education Program over the next five years is?
 
 2. Do you believe that the Foundation should establish an endowment?
 If so, how large do you think such an endowment should be; in
 particular, should the Foundation establish an endowment large enough
 to subsist at present staffing levels and growth rates from current
 investment grade bond interest rates without accepting additional
 donations? If so, over how many years do you think it would be most
 appropriate to establish such an endowment?
 
 3. How often do you think the Foundation should propose advocacy
 actions to the community? Do you believe the Foundation should survey
 the opinion of the community and donors on this question?
 
 4. Should the Foundation meet or exceed 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] WCA - Meeting Report / WCA - Bericht

2013-02-18 Thread Markus Glaser

Thanks, Manuel,

for writing this report! The meeting was conducted in an open and very 
constructive way with many stakeholders at the table. I think we came to 
some good and tangible conclusions. The next few weeks will have to 
prove our plan works in practice.


Just for the record:there was a minor mistake in your email concerning 
the Chair election timeline. We hope to have a decision until March 6th.


Best, Markus

Am 18.02.2013 13:43, schrieb Manuel Schneider:

 Deutsche Version: siehe unten - german version: see below 

A short report from the WCA meeting last weekend. This is a personal
point of view and might not cover all aspects and details and might
contain subjective views. There will be an official report by the chair
and you can also read the minutes on Meta.

* How to proceed with WCA after the Letter from the Board?
WCA has its goals and ideas and we still stand for them. We accept the
criticism made and are adjusting the organisation, just as we did before
in Berlin and Washington when meeting with the chapters. The WCA has a
working council which provides a value in itself, a forum to reach out
to chapters, discuss and get things done.

There has been a dilemma of expectations about the WCA. Accountability
and Governance were topics WCA picked up first and received a lot of
agreement from the WMF for this. A strong and secure framework was
needed to provide a governance body and as such we tried to set WCA up.
Narrowing focus was another point WCA took up and in further discussions
with people - especially from WMF - there was a certain pressure to get
WCA in place and take over the expectations. To the chapter it was clear
that in order to deliver these we need to have support from experts who
are not doing WCA as a volunteer, mostly beside chapter board positions.
Therefore we put a lot of hope in hiring a Secretary General who would
be able to execute many of these tasks the Council would have
oversighted and initiated. Now this focus of the WCA on structures and
staff has been the doom of WCA.

The WMF board of trustees provided us with their input right in time,
shortly before our planned meeting in London so we were able to pick
this feedback up and adjust expectations and plans. We feel freed from
some of the burden while we feel another pressure for activities. We
will use the existing structures to execute our updated plans.

Therefore there are no further plans for hiring a Secretary General, so
we don't need to incorporate and don't need a budget. Instead we are
focusing on smaller activities which can be done by the chapters
themselves while WCA is their to communicate and coordinate, bringing
together the right people. The resolustions about the position of the
Secretary General and the incorporation in Geneva are still valid and
will be implemented once there is a need for them.

Alice and Jan-Baart, trustees from the WMF, have joined our meeting on
Saturday and engaged in our discussions in a very good and constructive
way. We could feel that there was a mutual understanding and agreement.

* Communication
Wikimedia has many communication channels and for WCA there are several
facilities that have been used in the past. We agreed that we don't want
our own mailinglist and that we want to communicate as public as
possible. Therefore we will use whenever possible wikimedia-l. A
special, moderated list wca-announce will be used to announce new
things, mostly links to Meta.

Working space has been and will stay Meta.

There seems to be a misconception about having had a lot of discussions
behind closed doors. There were actually discussions on the chapters
list which is not public but used by all chapters, but most likely there
was less communication then oustiders expect. The work and results have
all been placed on Meta and there were phone conferences which have been
openly announce and were open for everyone and their minutes are on Meta
as well. The meeting in London was open to virtual attendees via video
conference, all discussions have been documented live on Etherpad.

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Chapters_Association/Meetings/2013-07

* Openess / Inclusion
Open communication is inclusive by itself but we also discussed about
membership in the WCA. Actually every chapter is a member who sends a
council member and agrees to the basic principles of the Charta. The
Charta has the same basic principles as the Wikimedia Movement as a
whole, so any chapter should by definition agree to our Charta anyway.

Basically a member is an organisation that actively participates in the
activities of the WCA. The WCA is a body which provides a forum and
services, done by its members. Any organisation - being a member or not
- can make use of these services. This includes thematic organisations,
user groups... whatever organisations have been accepted by the AffCom
and the Board.

Currently we have no experiences in working with other Wikimedia

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Your support is wanted: The WMF Board of Trustees is looking for a new Board member

2013-02-18 Thread cyrano

Jan-Bart,

can you be more specific?

Cheers


Le 18/02/2013 10:55, Jan-Bart de Vreede a écrit :

Hey

I seriously can't follow this, could you explain?

Jan-Bart

On Feb 18, 2013, at 2:11 PM, cyrano cyrano.faw...@gmail.com wrote:


I don't think it's about childish beliefs about evil. Money has a real 
influence, conflicts of interests are a real thing, and opacity at any stage allow 
abuses. It has been shown countless times in countless situations, empirically and 
scientifically, that people in power WILL use it to keep it, as much as they can.
When an entity is using its influence to determine who will supervise it, it's 
a matter of keeping the power of self-determination. You may agree or not with 
this strategy, but there is no way to lift doubts about the fairness of such 
appointment and obtain a clean cut legitimacy from such premises.

Cheers.


Le 18/02/2013 09:52, Jan-Bart de Vreede a écrit :

Hi

Sounded like good intervention, thanks for reminding me :)

Truth is of course that board Governance Committee is driving this process 
together with Gayle. That means that multiple community (s)elected board 
members are involved in the initial screening and that the whole board will be 
included in the final selection.

This would also be a good opportunity to make a small point: not all external consultancy is evil 
:) As a community we tend to be naturally suspicious of people that get paid a lot of 
money for tasks that theoretically could also be done my the community… There is a good 
reason why we sometimes rely on paid external advisors, some of which were given by Gayle.

m|Oppenheim in particular has been a great partner in WMF hiring with great 
results, and I hope that they can be as effective in this search (which we hope 
you can help out with by suggesting good candidates to them)

Regards

Jan-Bart




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Re: [Wikimedia-l] WCA - Meeting Report / WCA - Bericht

2013-02-18 Thread Fae
Hi Manuel,

Thanks for sending around an early quick personal report. I will be
sending out a very brief summary of next steps as the Chair shortly to
Wikimedia-l, the chapters list and on meta.

I need to put in a little time going through the notes on etherpad and
I am aiming to release these as minutes tomorrow, but anyone who is
curious can read these in provisional form at
http://etherpad.wikimedia.org/WCA. Anyone quoted in the etherpad
notes - today is a good day to make any changes you would like to see
whilst your memory is fresh. :-)

Once the minutes are posted, I would welcome help on meta adding
cross-links and fixing layout and typo problems (it's a wiki!).
Significant content or context changes should be checked with the
person quoted, or back with myself as the Chair.

Cheers,
Fae
-- 
Ashley Van Haeften (Fae) fae...@gmail.com
Chapters Association Council Chair http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WCA
Guide to email tags: http://j.mp/mfae

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[Wikimedia-l] Interesting research?

2013-02-18 Thread Andrew Gray
Hi all,

A speculative question: what's the most novel, thought-provoking, or
otherwise interesting piece of research you've seen, either

a) using information from Wikipedia (ie extracted text), or
b) looking at Wikipedia itself as a subject?

I'm giving a talk next month which will cover research about/with WP
and other WM projects, and I'm curious to know what people think would
be most interesting as examples. I've a few, but the things I find
interesting are often unusual :-)

Suggestions appreciated!

Thanks,

-- 
- Andrew Gray
  andrew.g...@dunelm.org.uk

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Interesting research?

2013-02-18 Thread Everton Zanella Alvarenga
Hi, Andrew.

Recently I came to a subject I first listened about 13 years ago in
the work of Murray Gell-Mann on complex adaptive systems, when I just
started to study physics. I think Wikipedia is an interesting system
to analyse such subject. Please, see

http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/wealth_of_networks/10._Social_Ties:_Networking_Together#The_Magic_of_Wikis.3F

http://wiki.cas-group.net/index.php?title=Self-Organization#Web_2.0_and_Wiki

I haven't been making research recently, but on my spare time I've
been studying related to that. And because of Jonathan Morgan reseach
bellow on WikiProjects

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Wikiproject_Participation_%26_Mentorship

this paper

https://docs.google.com/file/d/1nTHh4GRswNaa5mQE4aQc3AZQf3SpSojGsOR9LQTbCj1OBlq4xnLNalkuvKAP/edit

and discussion with the Portuguese Wikipedia community, we are trying,
through discussions with the network of the Ministry of Healthy in
Brazil, to revitalize the medicine WikiProject on the Portuguese
Wikipedia as part of the Wikipedia Education Program. The idea is to
form a critical mass of contributors and see how much it will improve
the content on this subject, working also together with other partner
we have made through the catalyst program in Brazil, like translation
universities.

Thus a complex adaptive system is the most interesting thing that came
to me because of Wikipedia.

Tom

On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 12:10 PM, Andrew Gray andrew.g...@dunelm.org.uk wrote:
 Hi all,

 A speculative question: what's the most novel, thought-provoking, or
 otherwise interesting piece of research you've seen, either

 a) using information from Wikipedia (ie extracted text), or
 b) looking at Wikipedia itself as a subject?

 I'm giving a talk next month which will cover research about/with WP
 and other WM projects, and I'm curious to know what people think would
 be most interesting as examples. I've a few, but the things I find
 interesting are often unusual :-)

 Suggestions appreciated!

 Thanks,

 --
 - Andrew Gray
   andrew.g...@dunelm.org.uk

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Everton Zanella Alvarenga (also Tom)
A life spent making mistakes is not only more honorable, but more
useful than a life spent doing nothing.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Interesting research?

2013-02-18 Thread Everton Zanella Alvarenga
P. S. because of that, I am also really curious on what will happen
when someone use a MOOC with Wikipedia. See this proposal, for
instance

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IEG/Wikipedia_Massive_Open_Online_Courses

It will be quit interesting to see the possibly good effects of
students engaging on Wikipedia to improve it. This is very related to
this also interesting research on what Wikipedia can teach us about
the future of journalism

http://gigaom.com/2012/12/19/what-wikipedia-can-tell-us-about-the-future-of-news/

Tom

On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 12:57 PM, Everton Zanella Alvarenga
t...@wikimedia.org wrote:
 Hi, Andrew.

 Recently I came to a subject I first listened about 13 years ago in
 the work of Murray Gell-Mann on complex adaptive systems, when I just
 started to study physics. I think Wikipedia is an interesting system
 to analyse such subject. Please, see

 http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/wealth_of_networks/10._Social_Ties:_Networking_Together#The_Magic_of_Wikis.3F

 http://wiki.cas-group.net/index.php?title=Self-Organization#Web_2.0_and_Wiki

 I haven't been making research recently, but on my spare time I've
 been studying related to that. And because of Jonathan Morgan reseach
 bellow on WikiProjects

 https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Wikiproject_Participation_%26_Mentorship

 this paper

 https://docs.google.com/file/d/1nTHh4GRswNaa5mQE4aQc3AZQf3SpSojGsOR9LQTbCj1OBlq4xnLNalkuvKAP/edit

 and discussion with the Portuguese Wikipedia community, we are trying,
 through discussions with the network of the Ministry of Healthy in
 Brazil, to revitalize the medicine WikiProject on the Portuguese
 Wikipedia as part of the Wikipedia Education Program. The idea is to
 form a critical mass of contributors and see how much it will improve
 the content on this subject, working also together with other partner
 we have made through the catalyst program in Brazil, like translation
 universities.

 Thus a complex adaptive system is the most interesting thing that came
 to me because of Wikipedia.

 Tom

 On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 12:10 PM, Andrew Gray andrew.g...@dunelm.org.uk 
 wrote:
 Hi all,

 A speculative question: what's the most novel, thought-provoking, or
 otherwise interesting piece of research you've seen, either

 a) using information from Wikipedia (ie extracted text), or
 b) looking at Wikipedia itself as a subject?

 I'm giving a talk next month which will cover research about/with WP
 and other WM projects, and I'm curious to know what people think would
 be most interesting as examples. I've a few, but the things I find
 interesting are often unusual :-)

 Suggestions appreciated!

 Thanks,

 --
 - Andrew Gray
   andrew.g...@dunelm.org.uk

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 --
 Everton Zanella Alvarenga (also Tom)
 A life spent making mistakes is not only more honorable, but more
 useful than a life spent doing nothing.



-- 
Everton Zanella Alvarenga (also Tom)
A life spent making mistakes is not only more honorable, but more
useful than a life spent doing nothing.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Interesting research?

2013-02-18 Thread Andy Mabbett
A friend of mine wrote a thesis based on the genres used to describe
bands and albums by \Wikipedia and other networks. I'll introduce to
you Twitter.

On 18 February 2013 15:10, Andrew Gray andrew.g...@dunelm.org.uk wrote:
 Hi all,

 A speculative question: what's the most novel, thought-provoking, or
 otherwise interesting piece of research you've seen, either

 a) using information from Wikipedia (ie extracted text), or
 b) looking at Wikipedia itself as a subject?

 I'm giving a talk next month which will cover research about/with WP
 and other WM projects, and I'm curious to know what people think would
 be most interesting as examples. I've a few, but the things I find
 interesting are often unusual :-)

 Suggestions appreciated!

 Thanks,

 --
 - Andrew Gray
   andrew.g...@dunelm.org.uk

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--
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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[Wikimedia-l] New proposal for a wiki Project!

2013-02-18 Thread Kevin Behrens
Hello! 

I have started a proposal for a new wiki project: WikiLang 
(meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WikiLang). It is about endangered languages and 
language documentation/decipherment. It is a very important step in order to 
save our linguistic diversity which is ongoing faster than the extinction of 
animals. Most of our languages are highly endangered and there are pessimistic 
estimations that by 2100 90% of them will be extinct. So, please support the 
project and vote for it and/or give your feedback! (I for myself belong to a 
language minority and I can tell how important this is.) Thanks a lot!

Kevin
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimania 2013 scholarship now accepting application

2013-02-18 Thread Karthik Nadar
Beware: You'll get lost in Indian
cuisinehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_cuisine.
;)

On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 8:14 PM, Andrew Gray andrew.g...@dunelm.org.ukwrote:

 On 18 February 2013 13:15, Deryck Chan deryckc...@wikimedia.hk wrote:
  No, because you haven't described what you're bringing :)
 
  On the other hand, a detailed, grammatically correct description of
  stroopwafels will almost certainly gain full marks for the English
 ability
  criterion. (And perhaps a bonus for interest in Wikimania if you make a
  good case)

 So, a new challenge: try and predict the food preferences and
 prejudices of every member of the Scholarship Committee by Friday. ;-)

 --
 - Andrew Gray
   andrew.g...@dunelm.org.uk

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-- 
Thanks and regards,
Karthik Nadar,
Secretary, Wikimedia India Chapter.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] New proposal for a wiki Project!

2013-02-18 Thread Thomas Goldammer
Hi.

Could you explain in more detail (on the wiki page you linked) what
the content would look like and how it would differ from the Incubator
wiki? For example, would original research be allowed?

Best regards,
Thomas.

2013/2/18 Kevin Behrens kevin_behr...@hotmail.de:
 Hello!

 I have started a proposal for a new wiki project: WikiLang 
 (meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WikiLang). It is about endangered languages and 
 language documentation/decipherment. It is a very important step in order to 
 save our linguistic diversity which is ongoing faster than the extinction of 
 animals. Most of our languages are highly endangered and there are 
 pessimistic estimations that by 2100 90% of them will be extinct. So, please 
 support the project and vote for it and/or give your feedback! (I for myself 
 belong to a language minority and I can tell how important this is.) Thanks a 
 lot!

 Kevin
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Your support is wanted: The WMF Board of Trustees is looking for a new Board member

2013-02-18 Thread Jan-Bart de Vreede
yes:

this bit:


I don't think it's about childish beliefs about evil. Money has a real 
influence, conflicts of interests are a real thing, and opacity at any stage 
allow abuses. It has been shown countless times in countless situations, 
empirically and scientifically, that people in power WILL use it to keep it, as 
much as they can.
When an entity is using its influence to determine who will supervise it, it's 
a matter of keeping the power of self-determination. You may agree or not with 
this strategy, but there is no way to lift doubts about the fairness of such 
appointment and obtain a clean cut legitimacy from such premises.


I don't understand what you are trying to say or imply?

Jan-Bart

On Feb 18, 2013, at 3:30 PM, cyrano cyrano.faw...@gmail.com wrote:

 Jan-Bart,
 
 can you be more specific?
 
 Cheers
 
 
 Le 18/02/2013 10:55, Jan-Bart de Vreede a écrit :
 Hey
 
 I seriously can't follow this, could you explain?
 
 Jan-Bart
 
 On Feb 18, 2013, at 2:11 PM, cyrano cyrano.faw...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 I don't think it's about childish beliefs about evil. Money has a real 
 influence, conflicts of interests are a real thing, and opacity at any 
 stage allow abuses. It has been shown countless times in countless 
 situations, empirically and scientifically, that people in power WILL use 
 it to keep it, as much as they can.
 When an entity is using its influence to determine who will supervise it, 
 it's a matter of keeping the power of self-determination. You may agree or 
 not with this strategy, but there is no way to lift doubts about the 
 fairness of such appointment and obtain a clean cut legitimacy from such 
 premises.
 
 Cheers.
 
 
 Le 18/02/2013 09:52, Jan-Bart de Vreede a écrit :
 Hi
 
 Sounded like good intervention, thanks for reminding me :)
 
 Truth is of course that board Governance Committee is driving this process 
 together with Gayle. That means that multiple community (s)elected board 
 members are involved in the initial screening and that the whole board 
 will be included in the final selection.
 
 This would also be a good opportunity to make a small point: not all 
 external consultancy is evil :) As a community we tend to be naturally 
 suspicious of people that get paid a lot of money for tasks that 
 theoretically could also be done my the community… There is a good 
 reason why we sometimes rely on paid external advisors, some of which were 
 given by Gayle.
 
 m|Oppenheim in particular has been a great partner in WMF hiring with 
 great results, and I hope that they can be as effective in this search 
 (which we hope you can help out with by suggesting good candidates to them)
 
 Regards
 
 Jan-Bart
 
 
 
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[Wikimedia-l] Info: [Chapters Association] Next steps from the WCA coordination weekend // 16-17 Feb

2013-02-18 Thread Fae
Dear fellow committed Wikimedians and Chapter enthusiasts,

Last weekend a number of Wikimedia Chapters Association Council
members, two trustees from the WMF board and some welcome guests,
worked together to review in detail the current progress of the
association and feedback given by the WMF board.[1][2]

A total of nine Council members took part with several being able to
join using video conferencing and etherpad. There were a number of
firm recommendations, along with a series of immediate actions. The
meeting minutes will be issued later this week and everyone can
preview all the notes taken during the meeting.[3][4] The meeting was
fully open and the Council will continue to use open public
communication channels, in preference to closed lists or meetings,
recognizing recent community feedback on how best to meet our shared
values of openness and transparency.

As the Council chair, I can summarize these points as follows, and
will be happy to refine and discuss these with an open dialogue on
meta[4]:
1) A small set of action teams have been agreed with a focus on
external deliverables including chapter peer reviews, providing advice
and analysing chapter practices. The time-frame is *three months* for
key deliverables and all are expected to be part of the Milan
conference in April.[3][6]
2) The recruitment of a Secretary General is parked until such a time
as the council is confident of securing a budget and there is a strong
consensus on the immediate necessity of such a role or its equivalent.
Legally incorporating the Association will also be similarly parked,
as the driving factor would have been the need to employ staff.
3) The previously planned elections for Wikimedia Chapters Association
Council Chair will be brought forward one month, to starting this
week. A separate note/email will explain the process of one week
calling for nomination statements, questions and a similar time for
the council vote.

Thank you to those who have engaged already with feedback and those
that were available to take part in the meeting last weekend. For
those Council members and interested Wikimedians who were unable to
take part, I welcome your feedback on this pragmatic way forward as
early as possible, and I encourage you to lend a hand with the action
teams, as they will benefit your chapter directly.

A special thanks to Wikimedia UK for offering to host the London
meeting, including Richard Nevell's support with practical logistics
all weekend, including much needed coffee and sandwiches. I look
forward to seeing many Chapters helping the action teams and future
activities of the Association, with suggestions and practical offers
of staff support. :-)

Links
1. 
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_Chapters_Association#WMF_Board_letter_regarding_the_Chapters_Association
2. 
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Chapters_Association/Meetings/2013-07/Questionnaire
3. 
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Chapters_Association/Meetings/2013-07
4. http://etherpad.wikimedia.org/ep/pad/view/WCA/latest
5. http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_Chapters_Association
6. http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Conference_2013

Thank you,
Fae
-- 
Ashley Van Haeften (Fae) fae...@gmail.com
Chapters Association Council Chair http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WCA
Guide to email tags: http://j.mp/mfae

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimania 2013 scholarship now accepting application

2013-02-18 Thread Lodewijk
As a true Dutch, I should bring potatoes, peanut butter and hagelslag.

Lodewijk

2013/2/18 Deryck Chan deryckc...@wikimedia.hk

 No, because you haven't described what you're bringing :)

 On the other hand, a detailed, grammatically correct description of
 stroopwafels will almost certainly gain full marks for the English ability
 criterion. (And perhaps a bonus for interest in Wikimania if you make a
 good case)

 On 18 February 2013 09:52, Lodewijk lodew...@effeietsanders.org wrote:

  oh... so replying with I will bring my own food wasn't such a good idea
  after all? ;-)
 
  2013/2/18 Liam Wyatt liamwy...@gmail.com
 
   On Monday, 18 February 2013, Abbas Mahmood wrote:
  
 From: liamwy...@gmail.com javascript:;
 Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 11:47:06 +
 To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org javascript:;
 Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimania 2013 scholarship now accepting
application


  Hong Kong is an international gourmet paradise. Please use less
  than
200
 words to describe your favourite dish of food.

 Is this an English-language test? Or, is this to help determine the
   best
 catering options? Or something else?
   
+1 to what Liam asked. I honestly don't understand the premise of
 that
question in the scholarship application form.
Abbas.
   
  
   Upon further questioning I was informed that:
  
   This question is referring to the selection criteria #4 Fluency of
   English language.  
  
   So... Apparently this is where you are expected to write something that
   convinces people you have a firm grasp of English. Unfortunately, this
  is a
   written test, not an oral test - because an oral test might be quite
   useful. I know many people from my own country and other
   English-native-speaking countries that are officially literate but when
   asked to speak in a formal setting (or even semi-formal situation like
   Wikimania) are incapable of clear enunciation, diction, grammar,
   intonation, accent and speed. Certainly, they can be understood by
  *other*
   native English speakers but they have no concept of how difficult it is
  for
   non-native speakers to understand them.
  
   Perhaps a mandatory class for native speakers before the conference
   entitled:
   Speak English, like, more good 'n stuff for all y'all. Mmm'kay?
  
  
  
  
   --
   wittylama.com
   Peace, love  metadata
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimania 2013 scholarship now accepting application

2013-02-18 Thread Theo10011
On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 3:54 PM, Lodewijk lodew...@effeietsanders.orgwrote:

 As a true Dutch, I should bring potatoes, peanut butter and hagelslag.


Sorry, stroopwafels is the only dutch currency we recognize! (pref. with
hagelslag)

-Theo
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimania 2013 scholarship now accepting application

2013-02-18 Thread Lodewijk
As a true Dutch, I shouldn't even consider to share... it is only to get
through the days and survive without having to touch local cuisine...
(French and Germans will probably be able to confirm this) :P

Lodewijk

2013/2/18 Theo10011 de10...@gmail.com

 On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 3:54 PM, Lodewijk lodew...@effeietsanders.org
 wrote:

  As a true Dutch, I should bring potatoes, peanut butter and hagelslag.


 Sorry, stroopwafels is the only dutch currency we recognize! (pref. with
 hagelslag)

 -Theo
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] New proposal for a wiki Project!

2013-02-18 Thread Kevin Behrens
Hello, 

thank you for your reply. I updated the text now and hope that some questions 
are answered now. 


Von: Thomas Goldammer
Gesendet: ‎18‎. ‎Februar‎ ‎2013 ‎17‎:‎48
An: Wikimedia Mailing List
Betreff: Re: [Wikimedia-l] New proposal for a wiki Project!



Hi.

Could you explain in more detail (on the wiki page you linked) what
the content would look like and how it would differ from the Incubator
wiki? For example, would original research be allowed?

Best regards,
Thomas.

2013/2/18 Kevin Behrens kevin_behr...@hotmail.de:
 Hello!

 I have started a proposal for a new wiki project: WikiLang 
 (meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WikiLang). It is about endangered languages and 
 language documentation/decipherment. It is a very important step in order to 
 save our linguistic diversity which is ongoing faster than the extinction of 
 animals. Most of our languages are highly endangered and there are 
 pessimistic estimations that by 2100 90% of them will be extinct. So, please 
 support the project and vote for it and/or give your feedback! (I for myself 
 belong to a language minority and I can tell how important this is.) Thanks a 
 lot!

 Kevin
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimania 2013 scholarship now accepting application

2013-02-18 Thread Theo10011
On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 4:01 PM, Lodewijk lodew...@effeietsanders.orgwrote:

 As a true Dutch, I shouldn't even consider to share... it is only to get
 through the days and survive without having to touch local cuisine...
 (French and Germans will probably be able to confirm this) :P


Now, that's just being mean!

If I had my way I would limit entrance for lodewijk from any future events
until he deposits 10 stroopwafels as entrance fees. HK team should set
their own lodewikj stroopwafel rates (LSR) for all dutch attendees, and
blame him for hoarding.

Theo
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Your support is wanted: The WMF Board of Trustees is looking for a new Board member

2013-02-18 Thread cyrano
To ensure a representation of the interests of the community, the 
determination of a new Board Trustee cannot be influenced by the people 
within the Board Trustee (and even less by the WMF itself). Otherwise, 
it would boil down to a disguised form of cooptation.
 Cooptation is a way to absorb new elements into a structure without 
threatening it, which is good for stability, but bad if changes or trust 
are needed. In particular, if the community differs  from what the WMF 
or the Board of Trustees are doing, cooptation cannot repair the 
divergence. In fact, it tends to aggravate it.


Now, if the Board of Trustees sets requirements, or pays the people who 
will recommend the candidates, it immediately breaks the guaranty that 
there is something else than people in power keeping their power 
structure intact. It doesn't mean it is happening, but it can't guaranty 
it's not, which defeats the point of having Trustees.


That's why, even if you agree with the strategy behind the current 
proposal and its advantages, you should be aware that it decreases the 
legitimacy of the governance structure to the eyes of the community.


Personally, I think the main function of the Board of Trustees should be 
to increase the trust of the community, thanks to a rigorous and 
transparent scrutiny of its internal processes.



Le 18/02/2013 14:14, Jan-Bart de Vreede a écrit :

yes:

this bit:


I don't think it's about childish beliefs about evil. Money has a real 
influence, conflicts of interests are a real thing, and opacity at any stage allow 
abuses. It has been shown countless times in countless situations, empirically and 
scientifically, that people in power WILL use it to keep it, as much as they can.
When an entity is using its influence to determine who will supervise it, it's 
a matter of keeping the power of self-determination. You may agree or not with 
this strategy, but there is no way to lift doubts about the fairness of such 
appointment and obtain a clean cut legitimacy from such premises.


I don't understand what you are trying to say or imply?

Jan-Bart

On Feb 18, 2013, at 3:30 PM, cyrano cyrano.faw...@gmail.com wrote:


Jan-Bart,

can you be more specific?

Cheers


Le 18/02/2013 10:55, Jan-Bart de Vreede a écrit :

Hey

I seriously can't follow this, could you explain?

Jan-Bart

On Feb 18, 2013, at 2:11 PM, cyrano cyrano.faw...@gmail.com wrote:


I don't think it's about childish beliefs about evil. Money has a real 
influence, conflicts of interests are a real thing, and opacity at any stage allow 
abuses. It has been shown countless times in countless situations, empirically and 
scientifically, that people in power WILL use it to keep it, as much as they can.
When an entity is using its influence to determine who will supervise it, it's 
a matter of keeping the power of self-determination. You may agree or not with 
this strategy, but there is no way to lift doubts about the fairness of such 
appointment and obtain a clean cut legitimacy from such premises.

Cheers.


Le 18/02/2013 09:52, Jan-Bart de Vreede a écrit :

Hi

Sounded like good intervention, thanks for reminding me :)

Truth is of course that board Governance Committee is driving this process 
together with Gayle. That means that multiple community (s)elected board 
members are involved in the initial screening and that the whole board will be 
included in the final selection.

This would also be a good opportunity to make a small point: not all external consultancy is evil 
:) As a community we tend to be naturally suspicious of people that get paid a lot of 
money for tasks that theoretically could also be done my the community… There is a good 
reason why we sometimes rely on paid external advisors, some of which were given by Gayle.

m|Oppenheim in particular has been a great partner in WMF hiring with great 
results, and I hope that they can be as effective in this search (which we hope 
you can help out with by suggesting good candidates to them)

Regards

Jan-Bart



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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Your support is wanted: The WMF Board of Trustees is looking for a new Board member

2013-02-18 Thread Jan-Bart de Vreede
Hi

On Feb 18, 2013, at 8:52 PM, cyrano cyrano.faw...@gmail.com wrote:

 To ensure a representation of the interests of the community, the 
 determination of a new Board Trustee cannot be influenced by the people 
 within the Board Trustee (and even less by the WMF itself). Otherwise, it 
 would boil down to a disguised form of cooptation.
 Cooptation is a way to absorb new elements into a structure without 
 threatening it, which is good for stability, but bad if changes or trust are 
 needed. In particular, if the community differs  from what the WMF or the 
 Board of Trustees are doing, cooptation cannot repair the divergence. In 
 fact, it tends to aggravate it.

But it wasn't intended to repair any possible divergence, this is what the five 
community (s)elected seats are for… if there is a divergence you can (s)elect 
different people for those five seats. The appointed seats are intended to help 
add specific skills/expertise to the board to make sure that it can perform its 
governance tasks effectively….

 
 Now, if the Board of Trustees sets requirements, or pays the people who will 
 recommend the candidates, it immediately breaks the guaranty that there is 
 something else than people in power keeping their power structure intact. It 
 doesn't mean it is happening, but it can't guaranty it's not, which defeats 
 the point of having Trustees.

Simply don't agree with that reasoning. The point of trustees it to provide 
governance and direction to the WMF. The five community (s)elected seats and 
the founders seat select four others to help them perform this task. They will 
look for skills and expertise that they find lacking within their composition. 
If you cannot trust them to select the right people, how can you trust them to 
do anything? Which leads to … why vote for them at all?

 
 That's why, even if you agree with the strategy behind the current proposal 
 and its advantages, you should be aware that it decreases the legitimacy of 
 the governance structure to the eyes of the community.

I don't think it does, or should. If it does then I think its worth explaining 
(like I have hopefully done above)


 
 Personally, I think the main function of the Board of Trustees should be to 
 increase the trust of the community, thanks to a rigorous and transparent 
 scrutiny of its internal processes.
 

I, and most of the non-profit world (not to mention the law ;)  respectfully 
disagree and would argue that the main function of any board of trustees is 
more governance related. For a good summary of what our Board of Trustees' 
function is I would refer you to:

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_board_manual#Roles_and_responsibilities

Jan-Bart





 Le 18/02/2013 14:14, Jan-Bart de Vreede a écrit :
 yes:
 
 this bit:
 
 
 I don't think it's about childish beliefs about evil. Money has a real 
 influence, conflicts of interests are a real thing, and opacity at any stage 
 allow abuses. It has been shown countless times in countless situations, 
 empirically and scientifically, that people in power WILL use it to keep it, 
 as much as they can.
 When an entity is using its influence to determine who will supervise it, 
 it's a matter of keeping the power of self-determination. You may agree or 
 not with this strategy, but there is no way to lift doubts about the 
 fairness of such appointment and obtain a clean cut legitimacy from such 
 premises.
 
 
 I don't understand what you are trying to say or imply?
 
 Jan-Bart
 
 On Feb 18, 2013, at 3:30 PM, cyrano cyrano.faw...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 Jan-Bart,
 
 can you be more specific?
 
 Cheers
 
 
 Le 18/02/2013 10:55, Jan-Bart de Vreede a écrit :
 Hey
 
 I seriously can't follow this, could you explain?
 
 Jan-Bart
 
 On Feb 18, 2013, at 2:11 PM, cyrano cyrano.faw...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 I don't think it's about childish beliefs about evil. Money has a real 
 influence, conflicts of interests are a real thing, and opacity at any 
 stage allow abuses. It has been shown countless times in countless 
 situations, empirically and scientifically, that people in power WILL use 
 it to keep it, as much as they can.
 When an entity is using its influence to determine who will supervise it, 
 it's a matter of keeping the power of self-determination. You may agree 
 or not with this strategy, but there is no way to lift doubts about the 
 fairness of such appointment and obtain a clean cut legitimacy from such 
 premises.
 
 Cheers.
 
 
 Le 18/02/2013 09:52, Jan-Bart de Vreede a écrit :
 Hi
 
 Sounded like good intervention, thanks for reminding me :)
 
 Truth is of course that board Governance Committee is driving this 
 process together with Gayle. That means that multiple community 
 (s)elected board members are involved in the initial screening and that 
 the whole board will be included in the final selection.
 
 This would also be a good opportunity to make a small point: not all 
 external consultancy is evil :) As a community we tend to be 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Your support is wanted: The WMF Board of Trustees is looking for a new Board member

2013-02-18 Thread Federico Leva (Nemo)

cyrano, 18/02/2013 20:52:

To ensure a representation of the interests of the community, the
determination of a new Board Trustee cannot be influenced by the people
within the Board Trustee (and even less by the WMF itself). Otherwise,
it would boil down to a disguised form of cooptation.


The board *is* self-appointed, the WMF has no members.

Nemo

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Your support is wanted: The WMF Board of Trustees is looking for a new Board member

2013-02-18 Thread Federico Leva (Nemo)

Jan-Bart de Vreede, 18/02/2013 21:09:

I, and most of the non-profit world (not to mention the law ;)  respectfully 
disagree and would argue that the main function of any board of trustees is 
more governance related. For a good summary of what our Board of Trustees' 
function is I would refer you to:

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_board_manual#Roles_and_responsibilities


I'm getting sick of this linking [[Wikipedia board manual]], can you 
please fix your highly misleading links?
I'm considering restoring the original page under that title and adding 
a disambiguation note, please express disagreement on talk page if you 
don't want me to.

Thanks,
Nemo

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimania 2013 scholarship now accepting application

2013-02-18 Thread Philippe Beaudette
{{Support}}

___
Philippe Beaudette
Director, Community Advocacy
Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.

415-839-6885, x 6643

phili...@wikimedia.org


On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 11:32 AM, Theo10011 de10...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 4:01 PM, Lodewijk lodew...@effeietsanders.org
 wrote:

  As a true Dutch, I shouldn't even consider to share... it is only to get
  through the days and survive without having to touch local cuisine...
  (French and Germans will probably be able to confirm this) :P
 

 Now, that's just being mean!

 If I had my way I would limit entrance for lodewijk from any future events
 until he deposits 10 stroopwafels as entrance fees. HK team should set
 their own lodewikj stroopwafel rates (LSR) for all dutch attendees, and
 blame him for hoarding.

 Theo
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Interesting research?

2013-02-18 Thread Everton Zanella Alvarenga
On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 12:57 PM, Everton Zanella Alvarenga
t...@wikimedia.org wrote:

 http://wiki.cas-group.net/index.php?title=Self-Organization#Web_2.0_and_Wiki

Using google cache because this page is not working (maybe only today?)

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:C7l687ionEAJ:wiki.cas-group.net/index.php%3Ftitle%3DSelf-Organizationhl=pttbo=dstrip=1

See Web 2.0 and Wiki.

T

-- 
Everton Zanella Alvarenga (also Tom)
A life spent making mistakes is not only more honorable, but more
useful than a life spent doing nothing.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Your support is wanted: The WMF Board of Trustees is looking for a new Board member

2013-02-18 Thread James Salsman
If I were making the decision, I would want to know how well someone
would be able to research and articulate a response on these issues
even without a substantial amount of background knowledge. So I'm not
suggesting the questions are appropriate for anything other than
written answers, but they're entirely sincere and in my opinion are
the most important issues facing the Board.

Take the question about endowment, for example. Being able to answer
how many years it would take to establish a self-sustaining endowment
is a fairly sophisticated finance question involving interest and
present value calculations. But I sincerely believe that Board members
should be skilled enough to research and to formulate a reasonable
answer.

I had them handy because they are the same questions I intend to ask
the election candidates.

On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 5:11 AM, Jan-Bart de Vreede
jdevre...@wikimedia.org wrote:
 Hey

 Thanks!

 I am sure that Alice is grateful for the input. I must confess though that I 
 think that most of these questions require a deep knowledge of the movement 
 and the community and as such disqualify a lot of potential candidates… (I 
 would hazard a guess that none of the past appointed candidates (including 
 myself) were not able to answer 80% of these questions until about 6 months 
 on the job. So are you proposing these questions to select new candidates 
 or are you simply trying to get attention for these issues (as you have been 
 doing over the past months… which is fair enough to some degree?)

 (and to be fair: at this point, with all the experience I have within the 
 movement I would want to see most of these decisions researched before 
 committing to a point of view)

 Jan-Bart



 On Feb 18, 2013, at 9:19 AM, James Salsman jsals...@gmail.com wrote:

 Jan-Bart de Vreede wrote:
 ...
 if you have questions that you think we should ask: feel free to suggest 
 them here :)

 I have these ten questions:

 1. What do you think a reasonable goal for the growth of the Wikimedia
 Education Program over the next five years is?

 2. Do you believe that the Foundation should establish an endowment?
 If so, how large do you think such an endowment should be; in
 particular, should the Foundation establish an endowment large enough
 to subsist at present staffing levels and growth rates from current
 investment grade bond interest rates without accepting additional
 donations? If so, over how many years do you think it would be most
 appropriate to establish such an endowment?

 3. How often do you think the Foundation should propose advocacy
 actions to the community? Do you believe the Foundation should survey
 the opinion of the community and donors on this question?

 4. Should the Foundation meet or exceed Silicon Valley competitive pay
 to attract and retain the best talent while competing with firms able
 to offer equity participation? Do you believe the Foundation should
 survey the opinion of the community and donors on this question? Why
 or why not?

 5. Should the Foundation establish a system of awarding employee
 bonuses in amounts determined by anonymous peer evaluations? Why or
 why not?

 6. Some proportion of long term project editors are impoverished,
 probably within a few percentage points of the impoverished proportion
 of the population as a whole. How do you think the Foundation could
 best assist impoverished long term volunteers? Do you think it should?
 Why or why not?

 7. To what extent do you believe the Foundation should reimburse
 travel and content development expenses for Wikinews contributors? In
 particular, if you were to propose a pilot grant program to grant
 travel and expense funds directly to individual Wikinews reporters,
 how many such awards would you begin with and how would you measure
 their effectiveness?

 8. PeerWise is a popular closed-source assessment question and answer
 database (http://peerwise.cs.auckland.ac.nz/) used in hundreds of
 higher education institutions. Unlike textbooks, traditional courses,
 MOOCs, and Moodle-style courses, PeerWise question databases can and
 often are populated entirely by learners, with answers reviewed in a
 style very similar to wiki content. Do you believe it would be
 appropriate for the Foundation to develop an open source version of
 PeerWise? Why or why not?

 9. Do you believe the Foundation should employ professional fact
 checkers who would not edit reader-facing content on the projects, but
 who would be available to research questions pertaining to content
 disputes at the request of projects' dispute resolution volunteers
 (e.g. Wikipedia mediators) to prepare reports to help volunteers
 resolve content disputes? Why or why not? Do you believe the
 Foundation should survey the opinion of the community and donors on
 this question?

 10. What is your experience with editing or otherwise supporting
 Foundation projects?

 Sincerely,
 James Salsman



Re: [Wikimedia-l] New proposal for a wiki Project!

2013-02-18 Thread geni
On 18 February 2013 16:33, Kevin Behrens kevin_behr...@hotmail.de wrote:
 Hello!

 I have started a proposal for a new wiki project: WikiLang 
 (meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WikiLang). It is about endangered languages and 
 language documentation/decipherment. It is a very important step in order to 
 save our linguistic diversity which is ongoing faster than the extinction of 
 animals.

Why? Most of the languages in question have so little information
stored in them that even if we assume a total loss of that information
(which is unlikely) that downside will be massively outweighed by the
upside of easier communication between people.

-- 
geni

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] New proposal for a wiki Project!

2013-02-18 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
The one thing I am really interested in learning is how information about
and content in a specific languages will be handled.

Information about is likely to be in another language, consequently WHAT
language. Content could be in something like Wikisource / Wikibooks.
Thanks,
  Gerard


On 18 February 2013 22:57, geni geni...@gmail.com wrote:

 On 18 February 2013 16:33, Kevin Behrens kevin_behr...@hotmail.de wrote:
  Hello!
 
  I have started a proposal for a new wiki project: WikiLang (
 meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WikiLang). It is about endangered languages and
 language documentation/decipherment. It is a very important step in order
 to save our linguistic diversity which is ongoing faster than the
 extinction of animals.

 Why? Most of the languages in question have so little information
 stored in them that even if we assume a total loss of that information
 (which is unlikely) that downside will be massively outweighed by the
 upside of easier communication between people.

 --
 geni

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] New proposal for a wiki Project!

2013-02-18 Thread Sarah Stierch
I think the talk page for the proposal would be a brilliant place to
discuss concerns and suggestions.

Just sayin' :)

-Sarah


On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Gerard Meijssen
gerard.meijs...@gmail.comwrote:

 Hoi,
 The one thing I am really interested in learning is how information about
 and content in a specific languages will be handled.

 Information about is likely to be in another language, consequently WHAT
 language. Content could be in something like Wikisource / Wikibooks.
 Thanks,
   Gerard


 On 18 February 2013 22:57, geni geni...@gmail.com wrote:

  On 18 February 2013 16:33, Kevin Behrens kevin_behr...@hotmail.de
 wrote:
   Hello!
  
   I have started a proposal for a new wiki project: WikiLang (
  meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WikiLang). It is about endangered languages and
  language documentation/decipherment. It is a very important step in
 order
  to save our linguistic diversity which is ongoing faster than the
  extinction of animals.
 
  Why? Most of the languages in question have so little information
  stored in them that even if we assume a total loss of that information
  (which is unlikely) that downside will be massively outweighed by the
  upside of easier communication between people.
 
  --
  geni
 
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-- 
-- 
*Sarah Stierch*
*Museumist, open culture advocate, and Wikimedia*
*www.sarahstierch.com*
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Your support is wanted: The WMF Board of Trustees is looking for a new Board member

2013-02-18 Thread cyrano

Le 18/02/2013 17:09, Jan-Bart de Vreede a écrit :

Hi

On Feb 18, 2013, at 8:52 PM, cyrano cyrano.faw...@gmail.com wrote:


To ensure a representation of the interests of the community, the determination 
of a new Board Trustee cannot be influenced by the people within the Board 
Trustee (and even less by the WMF itself). Otherwise, it would boil down to a 
disguised form of cooptation.
Cooptation is a way to absorb new elements into a structure without threatening 
it, which is good for stability, but bad if changes or trust are needed. In 
particular, if the community differs  from what the WMF or the Board of 
Trustees are doing, cooptation cannot repair the divergence. In fact, it tends 
to aggravate it.

But it wasn't intended to repair any possible divergence, this is what the five 
community (s)elected seats are for…
Do you mean three seats? Two seats are for Chapters. Chapters are not 
the community. Their interests may diverge from the community, in 
particular in the cases of power struggles or funds allocation.
Three seats out of ten cannot guaranty that the governance of the WMF 
will respect the values and intention of the community.




if there is a divergence you can (s)elect different people for those five 
seats. The appointed seats are intended to help add specific skills/expertise 
to the board to make sure that it can perform its governance tasks effectively….


Now, if the Board of Trustees sets requirements, or pays the people who will 
recommend the candidates, it immediately breaks the guaranty that there is 
something else than people in power keeping their power structure intact. It 
doesn't mean it is happening, but it can't guaranty it's not, which defeats the 
point of having Trustees.

Simply don't agree with that reasoning. The point of trustees it to provide 
governance and direction to the WMF.
Of course they must provide governance and direction, but with the 
greater priority of representing the values of the community, in order 
to deserve the alleged trust.




  If you cannot trust them to select the right people, how can you trust them 
to do anything?

Exactly my point.




That's why, even if you agree with the strategy behind the current proposal and 
its advantages, you should be aware that it decreases the legitimacy of the 
governance structure to the eyes of the community.

I don't think it does, or should. If it does then I think its worth explaining 
(like I have hopefully done above)

Yes, it's worth explaining.





Personally, I think the main function of the Board of Trustees should be to 
increase the trust of the community, thanks to a rigorous and transparent 
scrutiny of its internal processes.


I, and most of the non-profit world (not to mention the law ;)  respectfully 
disagree and would argue that the main function of any board of trustees is 
more governance related.
You should not leave the community out the equation. I agree that the 
internal function of the Board of Trustees is governance related. But 
from the community's perspective, WMF should not exist by itself and for 
itself, and that's why there are trustees: to *guaranty *that the main 
reason of its existence is something else that getting money, prestige 
or any other personal leverage. That's where the trust comes from.
WMF exists to empower the community and its cause, and all the 
governance's decisions are subsumed by this principle.




  For a good summary of what our Board of Trustees' function is I would refer 
you to:

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_board_manual#Roles_and_responsibilities
Thank you for the link. I understand now why you think that five seats 
belong to the community, the article is twice misleading: by saying that 
Chapters ARE the community, and by saying that five out of ten is a 
majority.


Cheers
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] New proposal for a wiki Project!

2013-02-18 Thread Kevin Behrens
Language is identity! Would you like to tell those People that it is not bad 
when they lose their language. As I mentioned, I am a member of a linguistic 
minority, too, and I would feel like my human rights where taken if someone 
tells me I should learn another language because mine is not so much worth. 
Language is culture and is human right, everybody has the right for his 
language. 

What is your mother tongue? If it is English it is easy for you to tell the 
world to give up their languages in favor of English.
And besides, supporting minor languages mostly always supports bi- or 
trilinguism because you speak the majority and minorty language(s). 
Multilinguism is very beneficial for children. They can learn much easier new 
languages when they have two mother tongues. And in a world where multilinguism 
is getting more important this might be a real useful side effect. 

And what do you mean by “have so little information stored in them”? Just 
because they are not as far developped as the main languages doesn’t mean they 
carry zero information. In America there are Indian languages that have more 
names for the flowers in their environment and whether they are toxic or not 
than the biologist can’t give latin names for them. As language minorities 
mostly live in rural areas they are perfectly adapted to their environment and 
in their linguistic world/lexicon there are more concepts and ideas than people 
from the cities have. It’s big culture goods we can’t risk to lose. 


Von: geni
Gesendet: ‎18‎. ‎Februar‎ ‎2013 ‎22‎:‎58
An: Wikimedia Mailing List
Betreff: Re: [Wikimedia-l] New proposal for a wiki Project!



On 18 February 2013 16:33, Kevin Behrens kevin_behr...@hotmail.de wrote:
 Hello!

 I have started a proposal for a new wiki project: WikiLang 
 (meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WikiLang). It is about endangered languages and 
 language documentation/decipherment. It is a very important step in order to 
 save our linguistic diversity which is ongoing faster than the extinction of 
 animals.

Why? Most of the languages in question have so little information
stored in them that even if we assume a total loss of that information
(which is unlikely) that downside will be massively outweighed by the
upside of easier communication between people.

-- 
geni

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] New proposal for a wiki Project!

2013-02-18 Thread Thomas Dalton
On Feb 18, 2013 10:27 PM, Kevin Behrens kevin_behr...@hotmail.de wrote:

 Language is identity! Would you like to tell those People that it is not
bad when they lose their language. As I mentioned, I am a member of a
linguistic minority, too, and I would feel like my human rights where taken
if someone tells me I should learn another language because mine is not so
much worth. Language is culture and is human right, everybody has the right
for his language.

What people are you talking about? While there have been cases of languages
being forcefully suppressed, generally speaking they die because no-one
wants to speak them any more (because they aren't useful for communicating
any more, which is the primary purpose of a language). Whether or not you
speak a language is entirely up to you. Whose rights are being violated
when it's just a matter of individual choice?
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] New proposal for a wiki Project!

2013-02-18 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
This does not negate the relevance of maintaining information about the
languages and the cultures reflected by them.

A new project has to be relevant for its own reasons. It has to be relevant
to the people who will care for it.
Thanks,
  GerardM


On 18 February 2013 23:35, Thomas Dalton thomas.dal...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Feb 18, 2013 10:27 PM, Kevin Behrens kevin_behr...@hotmail.de
 wrote:
 
  Language is identity! Would you like to tell those People that it is not
 bad when they lose their language. As I mentioned, I am a member of a
 linguistic minority, too, and I would feel like my human rights where taken
 if someone tells me I should learn another language because mine is not so
 much worth. Language is culture and is human right, everybody has the right
 for his language.

 What people are you talking about? While there have been cases of languages
 being forcefully suppressed, generally speaking they die because no-one
 wants to speak them any more (because they aren't useful for communicating
 any more, which is the primary purpose of a language). Whether or not you
 speak a language is entirely up to you. Whose rights are being violated
 when it's just a matter of individual choice?
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] New proposal for a wiki Project!

2013-02-18 Thread Kevin Behrens
Oh, yes please let’s switch to the discussion site! I am totally confused with 
all the emails and the Mailing list. 


Von: Gerard Meijssen
Gesendet: ‎18‎. ‎Februar‎ ‎2013 ‎23‎:‎09
An: Wikimedia Mailing List
Betreff: Re: [Wikimedia-l] New proposal for a wiki Project!



Hoi,
The one thing I am really interested in learning is how information about
and content in a specific languages will be handled.

Information about is likely to be in another language, consequently WHAT
language. Content could be in something like Wikisource / Wikibooks.
Thanks,
  Gerard


On 18 February 2013 22:57, geni geni...@gmail.com wrote:

 On 18 February 2013 16:33, Kevin Behrens kevin_behr...@hotmail.de wrote:
  Hello!
 
  I have started a proposal for a new wiki project: WikiLang (
 meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WikiLang). It is about endangered languages and
 language documentation/decipherment. It is a very important step in order
 to save our linguistic diversity which is ongoing faster than the
 extinction of animals.

 Why? Most of the languages in question have so little information
 stored in them that even if we assume a total loss of that information
 (which is unlikely) that downside will be massively outweighed by the
 upside of easier communication between people.

 --
 geni

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Your support is wanted: The WMF Board of Trustees is looking for a new Board member

2013-02-18 Thread Jan-Bart de Vreede
Hey Nemo,

I seriously have no idea what you are talking about. I looked at the talk page 
and could not find a hint. In what way is the board manual a highly misleading 
link?

Jan-Bart


On Feb 18, 2013, at 9:41 PM, Federico Leva (Nemo) nemow...@gmail.com wrote:

 Jan-Bart de Vreede, 18/02/2013 21:09:
 I, and most of the non-profit world (not to mention the law ;)  respectfully 
 disagree and would argue that the main function of any board of trustees is 
 more governance related. For a good summary of what our Board of Trustees' 
 function is I would refer you to:
 
 http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_board_manual#Roles_and_responsibilities
 
 I'm getting sick of this linking [[Wikipedia board manual]], can you please 
 fix your highly misleading links?
 I'm considering restoring the original page under that title and adding a 
 disambiguation note, please express disagreement on talk page if you don't 
 want me to.
 Thanks,
   Nemo


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Your support is wanted: The WMF Board of Trustees is looking for a new Board member

2013-02-18 Thread Risker
The link you provided said Wikipedia board manual, Jan-Bart.  The correct
link is: 
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_board_manual#Roles_and_responsibilities


Risker/Anne



On 19 February 2013 01:52, Jan-Bart de Vreede jdevre...@wikimedia.orgwrote:

 Hey Nemo,

 I seriously have no idea what you are talking about. I looked at the talk
 page and could not find a hint. In what way is the board manual a highly
 misleading link?

 Jan-Bart


 On Feb 18, 2013, at 9:41 PM, Federico Leva (Nemo) nemow...@gmail.com
 wrote:

  Jan-Bart de Vreede, 18/02/2013 21:09:
  I, and most of the non-profit world (not to mention the law ;)
  respectfully disagree and would argue that the main function of any board
 of trustees is more governance related. For a good summary of what our
 Board of Trustees' function is I would refer you to:
 
 
 http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_board_manual#Roles_and_responsibilities
 
  I'm getting sick of this linking [[Wikipedia board manual]], can you
 please fix your highly misleading links?
  I'm considering restoring the original page under that title and adding
 a disambiguation note, please express disagreement on talk page if you
 don't want me to.
  Thanks,
Nemo


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Your support is wanted: The WMF Board of Trustees is looking for a new Board member

2013-02-18 Thread Jan-Bart de Vreede
Hey

(have cut some items to focus on main points)


On Feb 18, 2013, at 11:22 PM, cyrano cyrano.faw...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 if there is a divergence you can (s)elect different people for those five 
 seats. The appointed seats are intended to help add specific 
 skills/expertise to the board to make sure that it can perform its 
 governance tasks effectively….
 
 Now, if the Board of Trustees sets requirements, or pays the people who 
 will recommend the candidates, it immediately breaks the guaranty that 
 there is something else than people in power keeping their power structure 
 intact. It doesn't mean it is happening, but it can't guaranty it's not, 
 which defeats the point of having Trustees.
 Simply don't agree with that reasoning. The point of trustees it to provide 
 governance and direction to the WMF.
 Of course they must provide governance and direction, but with the greater 
 priority of representing the values of the community, in order to deserve the 
 alleged trust.

I think that governance is the greatest priority, and community comes into it 
as an integral part.




  If you cannot trust them to select the right people, how can you trust them 
 to do anything?
 Exactly my point.
 
But if no one is likely to trust the (s)elected board members, why not simply 
have a completely appointed board? You don't trust them anyway? In my view the 
(s)elected seats are the core of the board (see below) and they are the link to 
the community.

 
 
 
 Personally, I think the main function of the Board of Trustees should be to 
 increase the trust of the community, thanks to a rigorous and transparent 
 scrutiny of its internal processes.
 
 I, and most of the non-profit world (not to mention the law ;)  respectfully 
 disagree and would argue that the main function of any board of trustees is 
 more governance related.
 You should not leave the community out the equation. I agree that the 
 internal function of the Board of Trustees is governance related. But from 
 the community's perspective, WMF should not exist by itself and for itself, 
 and that's why there are trustees: to *guaranty *that the main reason of its 
 existence is something else that getting money, prestige or any other 
 personal leverage. That's where the trust comes from.
 WMF exists to empower the community and its cause, and all the governance's 
 decisions are subsumed by this principle.

I am not leaving them out, I simply view governance as the main priority of the 
board.

 
  For a good summary of what our Board of Trustees' function is I would refer 
 you to:
 
 http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_board_manual#Roles_and_responsibilities
 Thank you for the link. I understand now why you think that five seats belong 
 to the community, the article is twice misleading: by saying that Chapters 
 ARE the community, and by saying that five out of ten is a majority.

I simply don't agree. 
a) Chapters are part of the community
b) Whenever a vote comes up for an appointed seat that seat obviously does not 
vote, therefore the (s)elected seats have a majority vote on any appointed seat 
(5 our of 9 votes) Apart from that I would say that Jimmy's seat is a community 
seat, but recognise that not all share that viewpoint.

Jan-Bart



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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Your support is wanted: The WMF Board of Trustees is looking for a new Board member

2013-02-18 Thread Jan-Bart de Vreede
AHHH!

Oh wow, thats pretty bad. 

Funny thing is: I really don't have the board manual url bookmarked (terrible 
of me) and i googled BOARD MANUAL WIKIMEDIA… and you will never guess what 
the first result was…. the Wikimedia one doesnt really show up until the 6th 
result :( sorry about that.. my intentions were good…

(so yes, please feel free to make sure we no longer have a Wikipedia Board 
Manual, as we don't have a wikipedia board :)

Jan-Bart


On Feb 19, 2013, at 7:55 AM, Risker risker...@gmail.com wrote:

 The link you provided said Wikipedia board manual, Jan-Bart.  The correct
 link is: 
 http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_board_manual#Roles_and_responsibilities
 
 
 Risker/Anne
 
 
 
 On 19 February 2013 01:52, Jan-Bart de Vreede jdevre...@wikimedia.orgwrote:
 
 Hey Nemo,
 
 I seriously have no idea what you are talking about. I looked at the talk
 page and could not find a hint. In what way is the board manual a highly
 misleading link?
 
 Jan-Bart
 
 
 On Feb 18, 2013, at 9:41 PM, Federico Leva (Nemo) nemow...@gmail.com
 wrote:
 
 Jan-Bart de Vreede, 18/02/2013 21:09:
 I, and most of the non-profit world (not to mention the law ;)
 respectfully disagree and would argue that the main function of any board
 of trustees is more governance related. For a good summary of what our
 Board of Trustees' function is I would refer you to:
 
 
 http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_board_manual#Roles_and_responsibilities
 
 I'm getting sick of this linking [[Wikipedia board manual]], can you
 please fix your highly misleading links?
 I'm considering restoring the original page under that title and adding
 a disambiguation note, please express disagreement on talk page if you
 don't want me to.
 Thanks,
  Nemo
 
 
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimania 2013 scholarship now accepting application

2013-02-18 Thread Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton
sooo weird...

Just some observations, my written English is bad, it is something I have to
improve, however, my understanding, both read when listening are close to a
native, and my oral production is excellent (:P). And honestly, I will not
really use my writing ability in Wikimania or Hong Kong, but my English was
evaluated for it.

But I think the message should be have a level of English sufficient to
follow the lectures, discussions and conversations

And also I did not find that a good test for English, there's a maximum
limit, but there is no minimum limit. I could say: I have a very
restricted diet because I am Jewish and vegan, so my diet is restricted to
that.

I could say, or, I like almost everything, but I'm lactose intolerant, so
I can do much poop if I eat things with milk. Until that can be
interpreted only
as something to check if I have dietary restrictions, as in previous
questionnaires.

And one of the advantages of being Brazilian, is that many of us find it
easy to understand other Latinos, the reverse is not true, I would not find
it strange to see some lectures in Interlingua, or even, Italian or Spanish.

But as the Wikimania is itinerant, lectures in the local language could be
very interesting, and even a form of local people interact more, I
know that English
is present among the HK natives, but I do not see why not have a lectures in
Cantonese to appreciate local culture...


On 19 February 2013 01:09, Mathieu Stumpf psychosl...@culture-libre.orgwrote:

 Le lundi 18 février 2013 à 21:09 +1100, Liam Wyatt a écrit :
  Yes, I think that writing I will bring Stroopwafels gives you an
  automatic extra 10points in the scholarship assessment ;-)
 
  wittylama.com
  Peace, love  metadata

 Goddamn[1], why do you tell that only now!

 [1] Of course you should have read le Mariage de Figaro to understand
 this subtle reference :
 {{fr}} http://monsu.desiderio.free.fr/bibliotheque/goddam.html

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-- 
Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton
rodrigo.argen...@gmail.com
+55 11 97 97 18 884
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] WCA - Meeting Report / WCA - Bericht

2013-02-18 Thread Michał Buczyński
Very good summary, I daresay.
I would like to add I was happy and a little bit positivilely surprised seeing 
how we all basicly agree upon a vision of the association as a helpful, light, 
service and open organization and the focus on delivering tangible results 
which will require a substantial effort from the active Council members.
Many thanks for Fae and WMUK for a well-prepared meeting and for all active 
Council members and our Guests for their participation.
Have a good week,
 
Michał Aegis Maelstrom Buczyński, WMPL
Dnia 18 lutego 2013 13:46 Manuel Schneider 
lt;manuel.schnei...@wikimedia.chgt; napisał(a):
 Deutsche Version: siehe unten - german version: see below 
A short report from the WCA meeting last weekend. This is a personal
point of view and might not cover all aspects and details and might
contain subjective views. There will be an official report by the chair
and you can also read the minutes on Meta.
* How to proceed with WCA after the Letter from the Board?
WCA has its goals and ideas and we still stand for them. We accept the
criticism made and are adjusting the organisation, just as we did before
in Berlin and Washington when meeting with the chapters. The WCA has a
working council which provides a value in itself, a forum to reach out
to chapters, discuss and get things done.
There has been a dilemma of expectations about the WCA. Accountability
and Governance were topics WCA picked up first and received a lot of
agreement from the WMF for this. A strong and secure framework was
needed to provide a governance body and as such we tried to set WCA up.
Narrowing focus was another point WCA took up and in further discussions
with people - especially from WMF - there was a certain pressure to get
WCA in place and take over the expectations. To the chapter it was clear
that in order to deliver these we need to have support from experts who
are not doing WCA as a volunteer, mostly beside chapter board positions.
Therefore we put a lot of hope in hiring a Secretary General who would
be able to execute many of these tasks the Council would have
oversighted and initiated. Now this focus of the WCA on structures and
staff has been the doom of WCA.
The WMF board of trustees provided us with their input right in time,
shortly before our planned meeting in London so we were able to pick
this feedback up and adjust expectations and plans. We feel freed from
some of the burden while we feel another pressure for activities. We
will use the existing structures to execute our updated plans.
Therefore there are no further plans for hiring a Secretary General, so
we don't need to incorporate and don't need a budget. Instead we are
focusing on smaller activities which can be done by the chapters
themselves while WCA is their to communicate and coordinate, bringing
together the right people. The resolustions about the position of the
Secretary General and the incorporation in Geneva are still valid and
will be implemented once there is a need for them.
Alice and Jan-Baart, trustees from the WMF, have joined our meeting on
Saturday and engaged in our discussions in a very good and constructive
way. We could feel that there was a mutual understanding and agreement.
* Communication
Wikimedia has many communication channels and for WCA there are several
facilities that have been used in the past. We agreed that we don't want
our own mailinglist and that we want to communicate as public as
possible. Therefore we will use whenever possible wikimedia-l. A
special, moderated list wca-announce will be used to announce new
things, mostly links to Meta.
Working space has been and will stay Meta.
There seems to be a misconception about having had a lot of discussions
behind closed doors. There were actually discussions on the chapters
list which is not public but used by all chapters, but most likely there
was less communication then oustiders expect. The work and results have
all been placed on Meta and there were phone conferences which have been
openly announce and were open for everyone and their minutes are on Meta
as well. The meeting in London was open to virtual attendees via video
conference, all discussions have been documented live on Etherpad.
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Chapters_Association/Meetings/2013-07
* Openess / Inclusion
Open communication is inclusive by itself but we also discussed about
membership in the WCA. Actually every chapter is a member who sends a
council member and agrees to the basic principles of the Charta. The
Charta has the same basic principles as the Wikimedia Movement as a
whole, so any chapter should by definition agree to our Charta anyway.
Basically a member is an organisation that actively participates in the
activities of the WCA. The WCA is a body which provides a forum and
services, done by its members. Any organisation - being a member or not
- can make use of these services. This includes thematic organisations,
user groups... whatever 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Your support is wanted: The WMF Board of Trustees is looking for a new Board member

2013-02-18 Thread James Alexander
Snipping a bunch for simplicities sake

On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 11:14 PM, Jan-Bart de Vreede 
jdevre...@wikimedia.org wrote:

 I simply don't agree.
 a) Chapters are part of the community
 b) Whenever a vote comes up for an appointed seat that seat obviously does
 not vote, therefore the (s)elected seats have a majority vote on any
 appointed seat (5 our of 9 votes) Apart from that I would say that Jimmy's
 seat is a community seat, but recognise that not all share that viewpoint.

 Jan-Bart


 :-/ To be honest I don't particularly like this meme that the chapter are
part of the community either. The chapters may be part of the community
(and so the statement not false) but we use the phrasing in such a way as
to say that they are more then they are.  There may be a part of the
community but they are really a very small part of it overall.

Their power in board selection and movement voice (both formally and
informally) is disproportionately huge and we set them up to represent the
community when that is a serious misstatement. They represent their members
who are a very small subset of the community and often have a very
different goal and interest set then the, much larger, remainder of the
community and depending on the chapter may include more donors or readers
then editors.

That is not to say they don't do good things at times (or that it is a
problem to include donors or readers, personally I think they are part of
our larger community) but we should not confuse what they actually are.

Jimmy is a whole different question ;) I would certainly say he deserves a
seat at the table, I prefer to just categorize him as Jimmy because he's
just a class of his own in all ways :).

James
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