Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikivoyage logo

2013-06-02 Thread Denny Vrandečić
Peter, we stand up to big bullies. As big as they get. But in this case, I
cannot see the WTO bullying us. Their terms are very reasonable in my
opinion, and I am grateful to the legal team for handling this situation
this well.

But in this case, we are talking about either changing a non-established
logo - something that has been discussed anyway before in the community, as
SJ pointed out - or risking to spend donation money on a very expensive
legal battle that, frankly, does not look very promising. And if the court
decides against us, which simply looks probable, we would need to change it
anyway.

Or, to put it differently, Peter: what other programs paid by our budget
would you curtail in order to try defending the Wikivoyage logo? Should we
cut down on development? On supporting chapters? Look at FDC and IEG, and
simply weight the projects enabled by that money against keeping the
Wikivoyage logo? Is the logo really worth that much?

Our movement fights against big bullies. Be it in the legislative branch,
where we use protest and lobbying, be it in the judicial branch, where we
defend volunteers in court, be it in the executive branch, where our
methods are cooperation and mutual support.

But I fail to see what the benefit of this particular fight would be in
reaching our mission. The costs, on the other hand, can be drastic.





2013/6/2 Peter Southwood peter.southw...@telkomsa.net

 So we stand up to small bullies, by not to big ones.
 Nice to know where the line is drawn when it comes to principles.
 Cheers,
 Peter

 - Original Message - From: Craig Franklin 
 cfrank...@halonetwork.net
 To: Wikimedia Mailing List 
 wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.**orgwikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
 
 Sent: Saturday, June 01, 2013 5:00 PM

 Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikivoyage logo


  On 2 June 2013 00:22, MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com wrote:

  Craig Franklin wrote:
 I'm sure that the legal team has done their homework on this and would
 not
 have made this recommendation unless they felt that the WTO had a
 credible
 argument.  Asking the Foundation to play chicken with the lawyers of a
 major international organisation over a trademark claim on a relatively
 new and easily replaced logo of ours does not offer a very good
 risk/reward ratio in my view.

 You mean has done their homework on this this time, right? The General
 Counsel position is one of the oldest in the Wikimedia Foundation and the
 Legal and Community Advocacy team certainly existed before the previous
 Wikivoyage logo contest. If this were an issue, you'd think someone
 would've said something six months ago. And, of course, there's no
 shortage of trademark, patent, or copyright trolls in the world. I've
 seen
 both logos and while they're obviously similar, I'm sure there are a
 great
 number of lawyers who could make a number of arguments as to why there's
 no real issue here. Anyone can send a cease and desist letter, right?


 The WMF Legal team are good, but they're not *that* good.  I'm sure if
 Geoff and the gang were capable of foretelling the future to see if they'd
 get issued with a cease-and-desist, they'd be spending their lottery
 winnings in the Caribbean rather than dealing with trademark issues.

 There are also at least a few Wikivoyagers who are concerned that the

 active participants of Wikivoyage weren't properly enfranchised during
 the
 last logo contest. That is, there's a concern that the people most
 involved with Wikivoyage will get drowned out by the much larger
 Wikimedia
 community in any contest of this nature.



 Obviously this is a valid concern, but that's best dealt with by making
 sure that the best process is in place for the logo competition, not by
 complaining about something that, lets face it, is not going to change.
 Obviously, for those that were unhappy with the last logo process, this is
 an opportunity to have an improved contest this time around.



 I would think some of these issues would be of concern to you. This isn't
 about asking anyone to play chicken. It's about ensuring that communities
 are free to choose their own identity.


 Well, obviously I'd be happy for them to pick whatever identity, so long
 as
 it's not infringing on a trademark.  In other words, they can't have the
 Golden Arches or Mickey Mouse ears! :-).

 More seriously though, while I suppose the WMF might conceivably be
 eventually victorious in court on this sort of issue, the expense would be
 enormous and the legal team's time is much better spent on things other
 than fighting battles over non-core principles with international
 organisations.  I also suspect that the WTO has a fair bit more cash to
 splash around on fancy lawyers to fight this than we do.  It's not a nice
 situation to be in obviously, but it's better than the Foundation having
 to
 waste its money fighting this in court.

 Cheers,
 Craig
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikivoyage logo

2013-06-02 Thread Federico Leva (Nemo)

Peter Southwood, 02/06/2013 07:43:

So we stand up to small bullies, by not to big ones.
Nice to know where the line is drawn when it comes to principles.


Why would you want to share visual identity with a bully?

Nemo

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikivoyage logo

2013-06-02 Thread Deryck Chan
MZM,

This time misses the point of risk management - it's all probabilistic
rather than deterministic. It is totally reasonable for WMF to have judged
that the differences between the two logos are large enough that a
trademark claim is sufficiently *unlikely* to happen. But outliers do occur
and in this case WTO chose (against perceived odds) to make a claim. And
it's totally reasonable, too, for the WMF to now judge that the risks of
going to court about this logo isn't worth fighting.

Saying that WMF must've made a mistake last time because they allowed the
logo in the first place but then gave in on the trademark claim simply
misses the point.

Deryck
(Putting his engineer hat on. Ironically engineers typically fight against,
not defend, lawyers when they invoke arguments from statistical science.)
On 1 Jun 2013 15:22, MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com wrote:

 Craig Franklin wrote:
 I'm sure that the legal team has done their homework on this and would not
 have made this recommendation unless they felt that the WTO had a credible
 argument.  Asking the Foundation to play chicken with the lawyers of a
 major international organisation over a trademark claim on a relatively
 new and easily replaced logo of ours does not offer a very good
 risk/reward ratio in my view.

 You mean has done their homework on this this time, right? The General
 Counsel position is one of the oldest in the Wikimedia Foundation and the
 Legal and Community Advocacy team certainly existed before the previous
 Wikivoyage logo contest. If this were an issue, you'd think someone
 would've said something six months ago. And, of course, there's no
 shortage of trademark, patent, or copyright trolls in the world. I've seen
 both logos and while they're obviously similar, I'm sure there are a great
 number of lawyers who could make a number of arguments as to why there's
 no real issue here. Anyone can send a cease and desist letter, right?

 Presenting a logo selection procedure from a black box and then trying to
 pressure the community to accept it as global policy within ten days
 doesn't seem appropriate to me. Ten days is being very generous, as the
 draft procedure is only fully translated into two languages at the moment
 and we're fast approaching June 2.

 There are also at least a few Wikivoyagers who are concerned that the
 active participants of Wikivoyage weren't properly enfranchised during the
 last logo contest. That is, there's a concern that the people most
 involved with Wikivoyage will get drowned out by the much larger Wikimedia
 community in any contest of this nature. This needs further thought,
 deliberation, and discussion; however this is being rushed by an
 apparently hard deadline from the Wikimedia legal team to change the
 Wikivoyage logo no later than July 31. This isn't a great situation to be
 in.

 I would think some of these issues would be of concern to you. This isn't
 about asking anyone to play chicken. It's about ensuring that communities
 are free to choose their own identity.

 MZMcBride



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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikivoyage logo

2013-06-02 Thread Liam Wyatt
Very eloquently put Denny.
I think your point is very well made that independently of what we as
individuals think about the legal Trademark merits of this particular case,
or the community processes of choosing a logo, the point remains that our
fighting this would not help to serve the mission (either in a practical
sense or an ideological sense) and could potentially lose us a lot of time
and money that would be better spent elsewhere.

It is unfortunate that it has come to this situation, but WMF-Legal has
made this decision not because the WTO's budget is bigger than ours, but
because their claim is sensible. I would hope that we would always say ok
when other organisations ask sensible things from us, and we always say
no when other organisations ask stupid things of us. In both cases these
decisions should be made on the merits of the situation and independently
of the size of the organisation asking. Simply because the WTO is big
doesn't mean that everything they say is bullying (although they certainly
do bully when they want to).

- Liam / Wittylama

On 2 June 2013 07:27, Denny Vrandečić denny.vrande...@wikimedia.de wrote:

 Peter, we stand up to big bullies. As big as they get. But in this case, I
 cannot see the WTO bullying us. Their terms are very reasonable in my
 opinion, and I am grateful to the legal team for handling this situation
 this well.

 But in this case, we are talking about either changing a non-established
 logo - something that has been discussed anyway before in the community, as
 SJ pointed out - or risking to spend donation money on a very expensive
 legal battle that, frankly, does not look very promising. And if the court
 decides against us, which simply looks probable, we would need to change it
 anyway.

 Or, to put it differently, Peter: what other programs paid by our budget
 would you curtail in order to try defending the Wikivoyage logo? Should we
 cut down on development? On supporting chapters? Look at FDC and IEG, and
 simply weight the projects enabled by that money against keeping the
 Wikivoyage logo? Is the logo really worth that much?

 Our movement fights against big bullies. Be it in the legislative branch,
 where we use protest and lobbying, be it in the judicial branch, where we
 defend volunteers in court, be it in the executive branch, where our
 methods are cooperation and mutual support.

 But I fail to see what the benefit of this particular fight would be in
 reaching our mission. The costs, on the other hand, can be drastic.


 2013/6/2 Peter Southwood peter.southw...@telkomsa.net

  So we stand up to small bullies, by not to big ones.
  Nice to know where the line is drawn when it comes to principles.
  Cheers,
  Peter

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[Wikimedia-l] The Wikinewsie Group Newsletter - Edition 1

2013-06-02 Thread Laura Hale
Originally published at
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/The_Wikinewsie_Group/Newsletter/1



http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/The_Wikinewsie_Group/Newsletter/1#mw-navigationhttp://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/The_Wikinewsie_Group/Newsletter/1#p-search

The Wikinewsie Group Newsletter

Sharing news about the group's activities
and things taking place on local Wikinews projects.
Shortcut http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meta:Shortcut:
WM:WIKINEWSIE http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WM:WIKINEWSIE
Key resources

   - Home http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/The_Wikinewsie_Group
   - TWG 
Newsletterhttp://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/The_Wikinewsie_Group/Newsletter
   - #wikinews-group irc://irc.wikimedia.org/wikinews-group - The
   Wikinewsie Group IRC Channel
   - wikinewsie[image:  at ]googlegroups.com - Email discussion list - join
   here!https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=defromgroups#!forum/wikinewsie


The Wikinewsie Group
News[edithttp://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Wikinewsie_Group/Newsletter/1action=editsection=1
]

Since mid-April, supporters of The Wikinewsie Group have been quite active,
doing a number of activities in support of the organization. These include
selecting a provisional board, engaging in research projects, working to
support original reporting, discussing setting up off-line events, and
promoting our efforts and the broader work being done by Wikinews reporters.

   - On May 4, a meeting was held to select the provisional board. It was
   decided that the board would be composed of the following people:
   LauraHale http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:LauraHale (Chair), Pi
   zero http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pi_zero, Brian
McNeilhttp://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Brian_McNeil
   , 
Bjarkihttp://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Bjarkiaction=editredlink=1
   ,ProtoplasmaKid http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:ProtoplasmaKid.
   The total number of people and roles was based on the draft bylaws. 18
   people, a little under half of all people who were listed as supporters,
   attended the meeting. aff-comm has been advised of this, and that we are
   ready to discuss the group's bylaws with them. They have responded back to
   indicate their review will start shortly.
   - Tentative steps are being taken to have a Wikimedia conference in
   Iceland with a Wikinews workshop as a component of it. This would likely be
   in December to coincide with the 10th birthday of Icelandic
Wikipediahttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/is:.
   Having some discussions about the possibility of having a small Wikinews
   conference somewhere in Europe sometime in the next year.
   - Wikinews:GLAM http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/en:Wikinews:GLAM was
   created after writing about previous experiences with GLAM projects on
   English Wikinewshttp://en.wikinews.org/wiki/en:Wikinews:GLAM/Case_studies
and
   content related to GLAMs across all
projectshttp://en.wikinews.org/wiki/en:Wikinews:GLAM/Coverage.
   Hopefully, with groundwork underway, there should be two announcements
   about Wikinews and GLAM projects by the end of June that will build upon
   previous success.
   - It does not look like there is a single presentation about Wikinews at
   Wikimania in Hong Kong has been approved. Given that, plans are to have
   some sort of Wikinews meetup while there independent of the official tracks.
   - Efforts are underway to do a better job at translating articles from
   one language to another, and successfully guide them through any local
   review processes. This is not a one way street of material from English
   Wikinews to other languages: We have successfully had two articles start on
   Spanish Wikinews that were translated to English Wikinews, where they
   passed the local review process and were successfully published. Comments
   on this effort are welcome at The Wikinewsie Group/Project
planninghttp://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/The_Wikinewsie_Group/Project_planning
and User talk:LauraHale:
WORTNEThttp://en.wikinews.org/wiki/en:User_talk:LauraHale#WORTNET
   .
   - Efforts are underway to develop a matrix to understand key policy,
   community and content requirement differences between different Wikinews
   projects. Once complete, this should ease cross Wikinews collaboration by
   having a starting point to discuss content related issues when translating
   for review, and trying to standardize any policies across projects.
   - Four pieces of research have been completed. They include Blocks on
   English 
Wikinewshttp://en.wikinews.org/wiki/en:User:LauraHale/Blocks_on_English_Wikinews
   , 
Wikinews:GLAM/Coveragehttp://en.wikinews.org/wiki/en:Wikinews:GLAM/Coverage
   , Research:Wikinews Review
Analysishttp://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Wikinews_Review_Analysis
and English Wikinews and the Gender
Gaphttp://en.wikinews.org/wiki/en:User:LauraHale/English_Wikinews_and_the_Gender_Gap.
   If you are doing any research, formally or informally, about any language
   Wikinews project, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikivoyage logo

2013-06-02 Thread David Gerard
On 2 June 2013 06:43, Peter Southwood peter.southw...@telkomsa.net wrote:

 So we stand up to small bullies, by not to big ones.
 Nice to know where the line is drawn when it comes to principles.


The principle being applied here is, I think, do the right thing.
The WTO is going out of their way to be decent about a logo that, to
many a casual eye (including mine, and that of those who already
flagged this as a problem in the original logo discussion) does look
really quite a lot like theirs. Saying whoops, sorry and trying
again is the right thing to do.

Defending what is in fact your trademark does not make you a bully;
Wikimedia defends its trademarks without being a big bully (though
it has been accused of such by some, e.g. the EFF).


- d.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikivoyage logo

2013-06-02 Thread Peter Southwood
Perhaps I missed something, because to me their logo does not look much like 
the WV logo. I would think that to anyone familiar with either of the logos, 
the other would be immediately recognised as different. Anyone who has the 
pattern recognition abilities to read should see that they differ without 
having to take a second glance.

So what is their objection? (my actual question in the first instance)
Cheers,
Peter

- Original Message - 
From: David Gerard dger...@gmail.com

To: Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Sent: Sunday, June 02, 2013 2:05 PM
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikivoyage logo


On 2 June 2013 06:43, Peter Southwood peter.southw...@telkomsa.net 
wrote:



So we stand up to small bullies, by not to big ones.
Nice to know where the line is drawn when it comes to principles.



The principle being applied here is, I think, do the right thing.
The WTO is going out of their way to be decent about a logo that, to
many a casual eye (including mine, and that of those who already
flagged this as a problem in the original logo discussion) does look
really quite a lot like theirs. Saying whoops, sorry and trying
again is the right thing to do.

Defending what is in fact your trademark does not make you a bully;
Wikimedia defends its trademarks without being a big bully (though
it has been accused of such by some, e.g. the EFF).


- d.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikivoyage logo

2013-06-02 Thread phoebe ayers
On Sun, Jun 2, 2013 at 12:35 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) nemow...@gmail.comwrote:

 Peter Southwood, 02/06/2013 07:43:

  So we stand up to small bullies, by not to big ones.
 Nice to know where the line is drawn when it comes to principles.


 Why would you want to share visual identity with a bully?

 Nemo


Ha! +1 :)

And also what Denny, Deryck and SJ said.

-- phoebe


-- 
* I use this address for lists; send personal messages to phoebe.ayers at
gmail.com *
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikivoyage logo

2013-06-02 Thread MZMcBride
Deryck Chan wrote:
This time misses the point of risk management - it's all probabilistic
rather than deterministic. It is totally reasonable for WMF to have judged
that the differences between the two logos are large enough that a
trademark claim is sufficiently *unlikely* to happen. But outliers do
occur
and in this case WTO chose (against perceived odds) to make a claim. And
it's totally reasonable, too, for the WMF to now judge that the risks of
going to court about this logo isn't worth fighting.

Saying that WMF must've made a mistake last time because they allowed the
logo in the first place but then gave in on the trademark claim simply
misses the point.

Very well put. :-)

MZMcBride



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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Structured Data

2013-06-02 Thread Federico Leva (Nemo)

Adam Baso, 31/05/2013 20:39:

http://googlewebmastercentral.blogspot.com/2013/05/getting-started-with-structured-data.html


I've tried the helper but I didn't find many tags of use (they already 
know that stuff about Wikipedia). However, some of those schema.org tags 
(like Article) could be added to MediaWiki maybe?

We've seen some requests:
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/29968
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/28776
Also: 
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Thread:Extension_talk:PageImages/Open_Graph_image?


Nemo

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wiki goes to radio: Möebius at Ibero 90.9

2013-06-02 Thread Ivan Martínez
Thanks to all for your kindly comments.

Daniel: The broadcast production considers songs and sounds with copyright,
but I think we can upload a CC version without restrictive sounds to
Wikimedia Commons. This is our first big project with the GLAM partnering
and sounds fine the collaboration in Wikipedia recorded articles. We have
already talked with them about donating content, and is pending by these
copyright details. We hope to have good news soon.

Samuel: we will document all the programs, and put this connections on
line. For an example, the first successfull draft of the program was made
with the articles Isaac Asimov = Encyclopedia Galáctica = The Hitchikers
Guide's to the Galaxy = Marvin, the Paranoid Android = Ok, Computer =
Paranoid Android = Radiohead

Regards.


2013/5/31 Daniel Mietchen daniel.mietc...@googlemail.com

 Hi Iván,

 that's an interesting concept - looking forward to listening to the
 recordings.

 Do you envision that collaboration to broaden a bit over time? For
 instance, there does not seem to be any mention of Creative Commons on
 their site, or their trained voices might help in getting some more
 Wikipedia articles spoken in Spanish, or they might have a sound
 archive (or contacts to one), which could then be asked about
 releasing materials under Wikimedia-compatible licenses.

 Cheers,

 Daniel
 --
 http://okfn.org
 http://wikimedia.org


 On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 6:32 PM, Ivan Martínez gala...@gmail.com wrote:
  {{Crossposting}}
 
  Dear all,
 
  From June 8, Wikimedia Mexico will co-produce Möebius a weekly radio
  program in Ibero 90.9 FM [1], one of the trendsetter media in Mexico
 City. The
  creative concept of the program is to find two topics allegedly
 disconnected
  , but united by four or five Wikipedia articles, with a sound design
 that will
  reinforce the concept.
 
  It has been several months of planning the concept, which will serve to
  further spread our mission in Mexico, thanks our GLAM partnering with the
  Universidad Iberoamericana and their radio station, Ibero 90.9 FM.
 
  This program will be conducted by Almendra Hernández, Carmen Alcázar and
 me. We
  will upload the audios for those wishing to listen to them, so you can
 practice
  your Spanish :)
 
  Best regards.
 
  [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XHUIA-FM
 
  --
  *Atentamente:
 
  Iván Martínez
  Presidente
  Wikimedia México A.C.
  wikimedia.mx
 
  Imagina un mundo en donde cada persona del planeta pueda tener acceso
 libre
  a la suma total del conocimiento humano.
  Eso es lo que estamos haciendo http://es.wikipedia.org. *
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-- 
*Atentamente:

Iván Martínez
Presidente
Wikimedia México A.C.
wikimedia.mx

Imagina un mundo en donde cada persona del planeta pueda tener acceso libre
a la suma total del conocimiento humano.
Eso es lo que estamos haciendo http://es.wikipedia.org. *
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