Re: [Wikimedia-l] The failure of Google, looking for open source alternatives

2013-08-26 Thread Romaine Wiki
The new Google Maps simplified navigation and removed many useful features... 
Layers like Wikipedia, weather, webcams, photos, videos, previous searches are 
no longer available, while transit, traffic and bicycling can be found in the 
getting around box. 
http://googlesystem.blogspot.nl/2013/05/the-new-google-maps-now-available.html


 
 Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2013 23:45:12 +0100
 From: Andy Mabbett a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk
 To: Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
 Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] The failure of
 Google,    looking for open
     source alternatives
   
 On 25 August 2013 23:33, Andy Mabbett a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk
 wrote:
  this is one point where WMF _may_ be able to help,
 
  We already have Special:Nearby
 
 I've started a discussion on en.Wikipedia:
 
    
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)#Nearby_.26_replacing_Google_Maps.27_Wikipedia_layer
 
 Please feel free to point to it from a suitable page on
 Meta, or elsewhere
 
 -- 
 Andy Mabbett
 @pigsonthewing
 http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
 
 

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] The failure of Google, looking for open source alternatives

2013-08-26 Thread Cristian Consonni
2013/8/25 Strainu strain...@gmail.com:
 2013/8/25 Romaine Wiki romaine_w...@yahoo.com:
 Unfortunately I couldn't find any layer for Wikipedia on 
 http://openstreetmap.org

 Perhaps the WMF should provide that? Kolossos has done a tremendous
 job with his work on the subject. Moving from the toolserver to the
 labs could be a good moment to increase the resource allocated to that
 project.

 I think OSM would be happy with the idea. One of their layers (the
 transport map) is already provided by a third party AFAIK.

This year at Wikimania in Hong Kong there has been a Wikimaps panel,
where it was discussed the possibility to duplicate the OSM whole
stack to serve OpenStreetMap in Wikipedia. The bottom line for me was
we want more OpenStreetMap in Wikimedia projects. Many user active
in the field, some people from Wikidata and from WMF devs and staff
were there.

During that discussion the point that emerged was it is doable, but
it is not easy to replicate the stack (or only the tileserver) to do
so some dedicated developers are needed, so my understanding is that
the point is is this a need that is widespread enough that the
Foundation should look into it?

As Peter said:

2013/8/25 Peter Gervai grin...@gmail.com:
 On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 11:58 AM, Tomasz Ganicz polime...@gmail.com wrote:
 You can also propose a new features to be added to the official OSM
 database schema.

 It is not a question of OSM database, it's a question of services
 based on the database, especially those related to slippy map with
 mapped external content. OSMF doesn't have the resources to get this
 done, and they even struggle under the load of their tile server being
 used by the general public. In fact you're advised against using their
 tile server and you are advised to create one for your own. For
 example this is one point where WMF _may_ be able to help, but it's a
 high demand service.

Also, always in HK, there has been a OSM introductory workshop and a
brief mapping party organized by User:Aude.

 We should strive on working together with OpenStreetMap, we supplement each 
 other.

As I said in a thread some weeks ago in Italy, Wikimedia Italia (the
WMF Italian chapter) is discussing with the Italian OSM community to
make Wikimedia Italia also a OSMF chapter (they have the same model,
drawn mostly from our experience).

Besides that, I think I am happy with OSM being managed by another
entity (the OSM Foundation), I think that it is healtier for the the
FLOSS/OpenCulture movement and also it is better for OSM which is a
very big project. Of course in case of need e.g. if some government
try to censor OSM, I think that we as a community and also WMF should
weigh in.

2013/8/25 Tomasz Ganicz polime...@gmail.com:
 http://openstreetmap.org - is just a starting point to OSM

About the main issue discussed here I quote completely Tomasz. This is
one of the first things to know about OSM, probably the tool you need
already exists, it is just out there.

IMHO, many people use Google Maps because it just works, you write
go from A to B and it shows routing. Search pizzeria and they pop
out. OSM has all this stuff, but they are spread in different sites,
for example:
* http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Routing
* or the already cited
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/List_of_OSM_based_Services

To me this looks a little like the people who are not using Linux
because they don't want to spend time/are not able to find their way
around distributions, versions and things like that; the perception
being that there is only one Windows or Mac OS (which is not true
but, that's the whole point).

Cristian

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] The Wikipedia Library

2013-08-26 Thread James Alexander
For everyones ease :)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:The_Wikipedia_Library/Newsletter/Recipients

James Alexander
Legal and Community Advocacy
Wikimedia Foundation
(415) 839-6885 x6716 @jamesofur


On Mon, Aug 26, 2013 at 3:51 AM, Lionel Allorge 
lionel.allo...@lunerouge.org wrote:

 Hi,

  Sign up to receive announcements and news about resource donations and
  partnerships: '
  http://enwp.org/WP::The_Wikipedia_Library/Newsletter/Recipients

 Your link is broken.

 Regards.
 --
 Lionel Allorge
 Lune Rouge : http://www.lunerouge.org
 April : http://www.april.org


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] The failure of Google, looking for open source alternatives

2013-08-26 Thread Peter Gervai
On Mon, Aug 26, 2013 at 12:52 PM, Cristian Consonni
kikkocrist...@gmail.com wrote:
 2013/8/25 Strainu strain...@gmail.com:
 2013/8/25 Romaine Wiki romaine_w...@yahoo.com:
 Unfortunately I couldn't find any layer for Wikipedia on 
 http://openstreetmap.org

http://osm.org/ is an example renderer. OSM is the _database_. The
information is in it, and there are several renderers showing various
external content.

 This year at Wikimania in Hong Kong there has been a Wikimaps panel,
 where it was discussed the possibility to duplicate the OSM whole
 stack to serve OpenStreetMap in Wikipedia. The bottom line for me was

What should be noted, however, that we should:
1) avoid to duplicate anything which is done very well by OSMF (which
is maintaining, operating and expanding OSM database), and
2) plan anything a way which helps OSM to get more user contribution,
either through Notes or by direct editing (so we should make it easy
for users to reach OSM edit fesatures over there.

Btw see http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Collaboration_with_Wikipedia

g

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Mobile image upload

2013-08-26 Thread Jon Robson
James
Thanks for sharing that and great to see the uploader is from Kerala India!

In terms of mobile editing arriving... It's here!:
http://blog.wikimedia.org/2013/07/25/edit-wikipedia-on-the-go/

Jon
On 25 Aug 2013 05:14, James Heilman jmh...@gmail.com wrote:

 Mobile image upload is a huge plus thus thanks to all who made it
 happen. It is allowing those who might not otherwise have be able to
 get involved to do so. Just saw this image come in through the mobile
 site
 http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Dirty_white_pseudomembrane_classically_seen_in_diptheria_2013-07-06_11-07.jpg

 I have never seen diphtheria as it is exceedingly rare in my area of
 the world. And technically this image is very hard to take. Look
 forwards to mobile editing arriving.

 --
 James Heilman
 MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian

 The Wikipedia Open Textbook of Medicine
 www.opentextbookofmedicine.com

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] is wikipedia zero illegal because it violates net neutrality?

2013-08-26 Thread Denny Vrandečić
There is a crucial difference: Wikipedia Zero is not a general way to
provide access to the Internet for free, it provides access to parts of
Wikipedia for free through partnering carriers. Wikipedia Zero is not in
violation of net neutrality in the first place, as Wikipedia Zero is not an
internet service provider and thus it cannot violate net neutrality.

I cannot see how Wikipedia Zero can violate any net neutrality laws in any
countries, as they simply do not apply in this case.

Having said that, I wonder what even the motivation is in trying to suggest
to close programs that provide easier and affordable access to the contents
of Wikimedia sites to a wider population.

The usual disclaimers apply, IANAL, etc.

Cheers,
Denny




2013/8/25 rupert THURNER rupert.thur...@gmail.com

 hi,

 most people know some advantage of wikipedia zero and everybody can
 look up the advantages by just typing wikipedia zero into some search
 engine. as i am not sure about the answer and anyway get asked in rare
 cases what i think of wp:zero i guess it should be best answered on
 the mailing list:

 is wikipedia zero illegal in some countries because it violates net
 neutrality? and if it is illegal or borderline according to, say,
 netherlands, swiss, or german law, is it appropriate to do it in
 countries where the law is less developed? or should wikimedia
 foundation apply a higher moral standard and just abstain from any
 activity which might be perceived as illegal somewhere?

 just for the ones not so sure about net neutrality [1]:
 Internet service providers and governments should treat all data on
 the Internet equally, not discriminating or charging differentially by
 user, content, site, platform, application, type of attached
 equipment, and modes of communication.

 [1]  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Net_neutrality

 rupert.

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-- 
Project director Wikidata
Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. | Obentrautstr. 72 | 10963 Berlin
Tel. +49-30-219 158 26-0 | http://wikimedia.de

Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V.
Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter
der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für
Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] is wikipedia zero illegal because it violates net neutrality?

2013-08-26 Thread JP Béland
And if it is illegal or borderline according to, say,
netherlands, swiss, or german law, is it appropriate to do it in
countries where the law is less developed? 

As said Kevin, it is impossible to respect the law of all countries in
every country (Wikipedia already fails at that in its current state by
the way, with or without Wikipedia Zero). So no we cannot just
abstain from any
activity which might be perceived as illegal somewhere. After that,
are you suggesting we should apply the laws of some developed
countries to all countries and just ignore the others, this is way
more morally wrong in my opinion.

That being said, the law on net neutrality you cited applies to ISP,
which Wikipedia Zero or the WMF isn't, so it doesn't apply to it.

But of course, we as a community and the WMF should still keep high
ethical and moral standards.

JP Beland
aka Amqui


2013/8/26, Andre Engels andreeng...@gmail.com:
 Dutch telecommunication law, article 7.4a (the net neutrality article),
 paragraph 3:

 Aanbieders van internettoegangsdiensten stellen de hoogte van tarieven
 voor internettoegangsdiensten niet afhankelijk van de diensten en
 toepassingen die via deze diensten worden aangeboden of gebruikt.

 Offerers of internet access services do not make the tariffs for internet
 access services dependent on the services and applications that are offered
 or used via these services.

 If an isp offers Wikipedia for free, and some other internet usage not,
 then it has a different tariff dependent on the service that is offered.



 On Mon, Aug 26, 2013 at 6:05 PM, Stephen Bain stephen.b...@gmail.comwrote:

 To the best of my knowledge, every jurisdiction that has legislated on net
 neutrality has concentrated on preventing ISPs from blocking, degrading or
 charging extra for particular services; not one of them has a problem with
 providers giving away certain data for free.

 S
 On 26 Aug 2013 04:51, rupert THURNER rupert.thur...@gmail.com wrote:

  hi,
 
  most people know some advantage of wikipedia zero and everybody can
  look up the advantages by just typing wikipedia zero into some search
  engine. as i am not sure about the answer and anyway get asked in rare
  cases what i think of wp:zero i guess it should be best answered on
  the mailing list:
 
  is wikipedia zero illegal in some countries because it violates net
  neutrality? and if it is illegal or borderline according to, say,
  netherlands, swiss, or german law, is it appropriate to do it in
  countries where the law is less developed? or should wikimedia
  foundation apply a higher moral standard and just abstain from any
  activity which might be perceived as illegal somewhere?
 
  just for the ones not so sure about net neutrality [1]:
  Internet service providers and governments should treat all data on
  the Internet equally, not discriminating or charging differentially by
  user, content, site, platform, application, type of attached
  equipment, and modes of communication.
 
  [1]  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Net_neutrality
 
  rupert.
 
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] is wikipedia zero illegal because it violates net neutrality?

2013-08-26 Thread Martijn Hoekstra
On Aug 26, 2013 6:30 PM, JP Béland lebo.bel...@gmail.com wrote:

 And if it is illegal or borderline according to, say,
 netherlands, swiss, or german law, is it appropriate to do it in
 countries where the law is less developed? 

 As said Kevin, it is impossible to respect the law of all countries in
 every country (Wikipedia already fails at that in its current state by
 the way, with or without Wikipedia Zero). So no we cannot just
 abstain from any
 activity which might be perceived as illegal somewhere. After that,
 are you suggesting we should apply the laws of some developed
 countries to all countries and just ignore the others, this is way
 more morally wrong in my opinion.

 That being said, the law on net neutrality you cited applies to ISP,
 which Wikipedia Zero or the WMF isn't, so it doesn't apply to it.

 But of course, we as a community and the WMF should still keep high
 ethical and moral standards.

 JP Beland
 aka Amqui



I do think there is some merit in the net neutrality argument, at least
sufficiently so to be open to discussion on whether or not offering
Wikipedia Zero is a good thing. It comes down to the question if we believe
that having a walled garden variety of internet consisting only of
Wikipedia for free, and with that undermining the market position for a
paid, open internet is a net positive. I'm inclined to say it is, but the
opposite position, though counter-intuitive, is pretty defensible.

-Martijn

 2013/8/26, Andre Engels andreeng...@gmail.com:
  Dutch telecommunication law, article 7.4a (the net neutrality article),
  paragraph 3:
 
  Aanbieders van internettoegangsdiensten stellen de hoogte van tarieven
  voor internettoegangsdiensten niet afhankelijk van de diensten en
  toepassingen die via deze diensten worden aangeboden of gebruikt.
 
  Offerers of internet access services do not make the tariffs for
internet
  access services dependent on the services and applications that are
offered
  or used via these services.
 
  If an isp offers Wikipedia for free, and some other internet usage not,
  then it has a different tariff dependent on the service that is offered.
 
 
 
  On Mon, Aug 26, 2013 at 6:05 PM, Stephen Bain stephen.b...@gmail.com
wrote:
 
  To the best of my knowledge, every jurisdiction that has legislated on
net
  neutrality has concentrated on preventing ISPs from blocking,
degrading or
  charging extra for particular services; not one of them has a problem
with
  providers giving away certain data for free.
 
  S
  On 26 Aug 2013 04:51, rupert THURNER rupert.thur...@gmail.com
wrote:
 
   hi,
  
   most people know some advantage of wikipedia zero and everybody can
   look up the advantages by just typing wikipedia zero into some search
   engine. as i am not sure about the answer and anyway get asked in
rare
   cases what i think of wp:zero i guess it should be best answered on
   the mailing list:
  
   is wikipedia zero illegal in some countries because it violates net
   neutrality? and if it is illegal or borderline according to, say,
   netherlands, swiss, or german law, is it appropriate to do it in
   countries where the law is less developed? or should wikimedia
   foundation apply a higher moral standard and just abstain from any
   activity which might be perceived as illegal somewhere?
  
   just for the ones not so sure about net neutrality [1]:
   Internet service providers and governments should treat all data on
   the Internet equally, not discriminating or charging differentially
by
   user, content, site, platform, application, type of attached
   equipment, and modes of communication.
  
   [1]  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Net_neutrality
  
   rupert.
  
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] is wikipedia zero illegal because it violates net neutrality?

2013-08-26 Thread Katie Chan

On 26/08/2013 18:14, Martijn Hoekstra wrote:





I do think there is some merit in the net neutrality argument, at least
sufficiently so to be open to discussion on whether or not offering
Wikipedia Zero is a good thing. It comes down to the question if we believe
that having a walled garden variety of internet consisting only of
Wikipedia for free, and with that undermining the market position for a
paid, open internet is a net positive. I'm inclined to say it is, but the
opposite position, though counter-intuitive, is pretty defensible.

-Martijn



Wikipedia Zero seeks to increase (free) access to one of our project. If 
we don't think that's a good idea, what the heck are we doing running 
the project in the first place?


KTC

--
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Any views or opinions presented in this e-mail are solely those of the 
author and do not necessarily represent the view of any organisation the 
author is associated with or employed by.



Experience is a good school but the fees are high.
- Heinrich Heine

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] The Wikipedia Library

2013-08-26 Thread Jake Orlowitz
I'm sensitive to concerns about the Library's location.  It is partly a
legacy issue:  The Wikipedia Library partnerships started on English
Wikipedia, and that's where the Credo, HighBeam, Questia, JSTOR, and
Cochrane account donations were coordinated.  This made some sense at the
time because these were English language source being donated (although the
donations were promoted to and open to all global editors and projects).   That
will remain--global notifications about account donations and organizing
will be sent using Global Message Delivery, Wikimedia Foundation blog posts
and Signpost mentions will make other announcements.

This is always a tricky issue for our movement but the intent is very much
to benefit all projects and conduct outreach to all regions.  For
neutrality, META is obviously best, but for overall convenience, English
Wikipedia remains the largest and most active project, with the highest
concentration of English language speakers.   So in that sense it's a
question of maximizing convenience versus equalizing inconvenience.  If
hosted on Meta, everyone has to switch wikis to get there.  If hosted on
ENWP, all non-ENWP still editors have to switch wikis to get there, but the
huge chunk of ENWP editors do not.
This will hopefully become much less of an issue with interface changes
like Flow and Global Watchlists.  Meta did just get notifications, so
that's helpful, but I still feel collaboration is somewhat limited by our
current infrastrcutre.

There are other concerns such as turning Meta into a true hub for all of
our editors, and representing our global nature by hosting global projects
there.  These are important, and I want to give it more thought.

So, in the meantime going to look into hosting this on Meta, and I will
definitely at least mirror a portal there.  It may take some time while we
continue to organize and get set up

I'd like to continue talking more about this.  Cheers,

Jake Orlowitz (Ocaasi)
jorlow...@gmail.com
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] is wikipedia zero illegal because it violates net neutrality?

2013-08-26 Thread JP Béland
2013/8/26, Martijn Hoekstra martijnhoeks...@gmail.com:
 On Aug 26, 2013 6:30 PM, JP Béland lebo.bel...@gmail.com wrote:

 And if it is illegal or borderline according to, say,
 netherlands, swiss, or german law, is it appropriate to do it in
 countries where the law is less developed? 

 As said Kevin, it is impossible to respect the law of all countries in
 every country (Wikipedia already fails at that in its current state by
 the way, with or without Wikipedia Zero). So no we cannot just
 abstain from any
 activity which might be perceived as illegal somewhere. After that,
 are you suggesting we should apply the laws of some developed
 countries to all countries and just ignore the others, this is way
 more morally wrong in my opinion.

 That being said, the law on net neutrality you cited applies to ISP,
 which Wikipedia Zero or the WMF isn't, so it doesn't apply to it.

 But of course, we as a community and the WMF should still keep high
 ethical and moral standards.

 JP Beland
 aka Amqui



 I do think there is some merit in the net neutrality argument, at least
 sufficiently so to be open to discussion on whether or not offering
 Wikipedia Zero is a good thing. It comes down to the question if we believe
 that having a walled garden variety of internet consisting only of
 Wikipedia for free, and with that undermining the market position for a
 paid, open internet is a net positive. I'm inclined to say it is, but the
 opposite position, though counter-intuitive, is pretty defensible.

 -Martijn

Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in
the sum of all knowledge. That's our commitment.
(http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Vision)

I agree with you that it is good to discuss about it. The real
question we have to ask is what between Wikipedia Zero giving free
access to Wikipedia or avoiding that for net neutrality and not
undermining the market position for a paid open internet is getting us
closer to our vision.

JP Béland
aka Amqui

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] is wikipedia zero illegal because it violates net neutrality?

2013-08-26 Thread George William Herbert




On Aug 26, 2013, at 10:42 AM, JP Béland lebo.bel...@gmail.com wrote:

 2013/8/26, Martijn Hoekstra martijnhoeks...@gmail.com:
 On Aug 26, 2013 6:30 PM, JP Béland lebo.bel...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 And if it is illegal or borderline according to, say,
 netherlands, swiss, or german law, is it appropriate to do it in
 countries where the law is less developed? 
 
 As said Kevin, it is impossible to respect the law of all countries in
 every country (Wikipedia already fails at that in its current state by
 the way, with or without Wikipedia Zero). So no we cannot just
 abstain from any
 activity which might be perceived as illegal somewhere. After that,
 are you suggesting we should apply the laws of some developed
 countries to all countries and just ignore the others, this is way
 more morally wrong in my opinion.
 
 That being said, the law on net neutrality you cited applies to ISP,
 which Wikipedia Zero or the WMF isn't, so it doesn't apply to it.
 
 But of course, we as a community and the WMF should still keep high
 ethical and moral standards.
 
 JP Beland
 aka Amqui
 
 I do think there is some merit in the net neutrality argument, at least
 sufficiently so to be open to discussion on whether or not offering
 Wikipedia Zero is a good thing. It comes down to the question if we believe
 that having a walled garden variety of internet consisting only of
 Wikipedia for free, and with that undermining the market position for a
 paid, open internet is a net positive. I'm inclined to say it is, but the
 opposite position, though counter-intuitive, is pretty defensible.
 
 -Martijn
 
 Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in
 the sum of all knowledge. That's our commitment.
 (http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Vision)
 
 I agree with you that it is good to discuss about it. The real
 question we have to ask is what between Wikipedia Zero giving free
 access to Wikipedia or avoiding that for net neutrality and not
 undermining the market position for a paid open internet is getting us
 closer to our vision.
 
 JP Béland
 aka Amqui


I believe a nonstandard interpretation of net neutrality is being used here.

It's intended - as originally posed - to prevent a service provider from 
advantaging their own bundled services and disadvantage independent services 
via tariff structure.

What competitors for Wikipedia exist?

And to the extent there are such, are we associated with this provider in some 
way that causes us to be their service in some preferred way to their or our 
benefit?  What benefit do we get?


Sent from Kangphone
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] The failure of Google, looking for open source alternatives

2013-08-26 Thread Cristian Consonni
2013/8/26 Sumana Harihareswara suma...@wikimedia.org:
 Thanks to everyone who's been offering ideas and thoughts in this
 thread! Could we move to maps-l (cc'd)?

 https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/maps-l

Thank you for reminding me of a mailing list I should have subscribed
to a long ago ;o.

C

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Internet.org and Wikipedia Zero ?

2013-08-26 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
For your information ... an interview with Mr Zuggerberg... In my opinion
there is an opportunity as he is looking for dense information.. we are
really good at that :)
Thanks,
 Gerard

http://www.wired.com/business/2013/08/mark-zuckerberg-internet-org/


On 23 August 2013 14:38, Emilio J. Rodríguez-Posada emi...@gmail.comwrote:

 Looks like NSA has bought some new hard drives and needs moar data.


 2013/8/23 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com

  Hoi,
  But when they provide the infrastructure that allows our content to be
 seen
  by many more people, they do us a service.
 
  In the end it is what we are about. Last thing I heard we were first of
 all
  about getting the knowledge out there.
  Thanks,
GerardM
 
 
  On 23 August 2013 12:14, Jens Best jens.b...@wikimedia.de wrote:
 
   Nothing good comes with people like Mark Zuckerberg or Peter Thiel,
 they
   don't share our vision of a *really* free and open internet. So,
  actually,
   Emmanuel, I couldn't care less which direction they gonna make their
 next
   moves. It will all be a disguise of what they really attempt and with
  whom
   they really cooperate.
  
   It's time to realize that there isn't a shared vision of the web
 between
   Silicon Valley and Wikimedia. Their words are empty. When they speak of
   freedom, they speak of the freedom of money and control. Just because
  they
   use the word internet they don't speak of the same thing we do.
  
   Jens
  
   2013/8/23 Emmanuel Engelhart kel...@kiwix.org
  
Le 23/08/2013 10:59, Kul Wadhwa a écrit :
 I have my concerns as well so we're watching how things unfold for
  now.
 Perhaps to add to Teemu's question (If I could be so bold) how
 would
 internet.org need to evolve to make it worth our time and effort
 to
  be
 involved?
   
If what I fear becomes real, then I would be sad that our movement
  joins
such a dishonest project.
   
If they want to give access to a subset of Internet services and
 adapt
their communication (honesty about the product), then we face a
  dilemma.
A dilemna between our wish to give access to our content (tactical
  move)
and the one of having a free, neutral and un-clustered Internet
(strategical view)... Big discussions in view, but we already have
 done
it with Wikipedia zero and I know the WMF tends to be pragmatic in
 such
situations ;)
   
If they really want to help to give a neutral access to internet...
  then
this is really a dream we should be part of!
   
But, this is all about speculations...
   
I just wanted to explain why this launch doesn't sound well to my
  hears.
But I know nothing about their real intentions and concrete projects.
That's why, it's IMO urgent to wait... and see in which direction
 they
will make the next moves.
   
Emmanuel
--
Kiwix - Wikipedia Offline  more
* Web: http://www.kiwix.org
* Twitter: https://twitter.com/KiwixOffline
* more: http://www.kiwix.org/wiki/Communication
   
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   --
   --
   Jens Best
   Präsidium
   Wikimedia Deutschland e.V.
   web: http://www.wikimedia.de
   mail: jens.best http://goog_17221883@wikimedia.de
  
   Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V.
   Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts
   Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig
   anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin,
   Steuernummer 27/681/51985.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Internet.org and Wikipedia Zero ?

2013-08-26 Thread Ziko van Dijk
Hear, hear.
Ziko

2013/8/23 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com

 Hoi,
 But when they provide the infrastructure that allows our content to be seen
 by many more people, they do us a service.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] is wikipedia zero illegal because it violates net neutrality?

2013-08-26 Thread George Herbert
It was not rhetorical, but you missed the point.

Net neutrality is an issue because service providers (can / may / often do)
become a local monopoly of sorts.  Monopilies are not necessarily bad (how
many water and natural gas line providers can you choose from?  how many
road networks?) but are generally felt to be bad if they enable the
monopolist to leverage themselves into other markets.

With regards to network neutrality, the problem is if the provider uses
their network monopoly to encourage the customers to use their (or their
preferred, with some sort of mutual advantage) search engine, email
service, etc., or discourage use of an alternative streaming media service,
and issues of the like.

Again: with Wikipedia, we do not have particular mutually beneficial
relationships which this would be encouraging, and the service provider
isn't really in a position to damage a Wikipedia competitor by doing this,
as far as I can see.

One can argue that even a free (to use, contribute, participate),
functionally monopolized, public service organization could benefit somehow
and the ISP could benefit somehow, and that the strict terms of the
particular law in question might come into play.

However, from a moral stance, the underlying goal of network neutrality
seems unharmed by this, in any realistic or reasonable manner.  Your
interpretation seems excessively legalistic rather than factually or
morally based; while it may be that we should avoid even trivial legalistic
issues, we do not as a project make special efforts to comply with 180+
countries laws (other than copyright issues, and free definitions for
Commons, that I can see).

If you can explain a manner in which the underlying monopoly / advantage
issue IS a problem here, please point it out.  If there is one that I do
not see then that forms a valid reason to reconsider.



On Mon, Aug 26, 2013 at 11:04 AM, Martijn Hoekstra 
martijnhoeks...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Aug 26, 2013 7:53 PM, George William Herbert 
 george.herb...@gmail.com
 wrote:
 
 
 
 
 
  On Aug 26, 2013, at 10:42 AM, JP Béland lebo.bel...@gmail.com wrote:
 
   2013/8/26, Martijn Hoekstra martijnhoeks...@gmail.com:
   On Aug 26, 2013 6:30 PM, JP Béland lebo.bel...@gmail.com wrote:
  
   And if it is illegal or borderline according to, say,
   netherlands, swiss, or german law, is it appropriate to do it in
   countries where the law is less developed? 
  
   As said Kevin, it is impossible to respect the law of all countries
 in
   every country (Wikipedia already fails at that in its current state
 by
   the way, with or without Wikipedia Zero). So no we cannot just
   abstain from any
   activity which might be perceived as illegal somewhere. After that,
   are you suggesting we should apply the laws of some developed
   countries to all countries and just ignore the others, this is way
   more morally wrong in my opinion.
  
   That being said, the law on net neutrality you cited applies to ISP,
   which Wikipedia Zero or the WMF isn't, so it doesn't apply to it.
  
   But of course, we as a community and the WMF should still keep high
   ethical and moral standards.
  
   JP Beland
   aka Amqui
  
   I do think there is some merit in the net neutrality argument, at
 least
   sufficiently so to be open to discussion on whether or not offering
   Wikipedia Zero is a good thing. It comes down to the question if we
 believe
   that having a walled garden variety of internet consisting only of
   Wikipedia for free, and with that undermining the market position for
 a
   paid, open internet is a net positive. I'm inclined to say it is, but
 the
   opposite position, though counter-intuitive, is pretty defensible.
  
   -Martijn
  
   Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in
   the sum of all knowledge. That's our commitment.
   (http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Vision)
  
   I agree with you that it is good to discuss about it. The real
   question we have to ask is what between Wikipedia Zero giving free
   access to Wikipedia or avoiding that for net neutrality and not
   undermining the market position for a paid open internet is getting us
   closer to our vision.
  
   JP Béland
   aka Amqui
 
 
  I believe a nonstandard interpretation of net neutrality is being used
 here.
 
  It's intended - as originally posed - to prevent a service provider from
 advantaging their own bundled services and disadvantage independent
 services via tariff structure.
 
  What competitors for Wikipedia exist?
 
  And to the extent there are such, are we associated with this provider in
 some way that causes us to be their service in some preferred way to their
 or our benefit?  What benefit do we get?

 We get a wider readership, at least in the short term. Why else would we be
 doing this? Or was the question rhetorical, as the answer was rather
 obvious to me. If it was, I don't understand the point you were trying to
 make with it.

 
 
  Sent from Kangphone