Re: [Wikimedia-l] To Flow or not to Flow

2014-09-10 Thread Martijn Hoekstra
On Sep 10, 2014 5:11 AM, Keegan Peterzell keegan.w...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Sep 9, 2014 at 10:04 AM, Wil Sinclair w...@wllm.com wrote: FWIW, I signed my first comment by hand. I missed the comments about sigs in the wikitext editor interface. If it weren't for my family situation,

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Access by Wikimedia volunteers to WMF records about them

2014-09-10 Thread
I had a reply yesterday from WMF legal. The answer is no. This is based on the WMF believing that they have no policies which obligate them to explain what records they keep on a volunteer or provide copies of records, and that there are no data protection laws that ensure that this information

Re: [Wikimedia-l] To Flow or not to Flow

2014-09-10 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi. When you look at talk pages in isolation, you look at them on a computer screen. A mobile or tablet screen is increasingly not used in isolation. It is where we find our new users and editors. We cannot afford to ignore them; they are our future. This is why tinkering with talk pages is not

Re: [Wikimedia-l] To Flow or not to Flow

2014-09-10 Thread Martijn Hoekstra
On Sep 10, 2014 9:35 AM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com wrote: Hoi. When you look at talk pages in isolation, you look at them on a computer screen. A mobile or tablet screen is increasingly not used in isolation. I'm not sure what you mean by this. It is where we find our new

Re: [Wikimedia-l] To Flow or not to Flow

2014-09-10 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi, I expected that it was obvious... Arguments that are based on desktop experiences are futile because the desktop experience is the lesser of two evils. The desktop experience is already bad, the experience on mobiles and tablets is much worse it is intolerably unusable, Yes, you are

Re: [Wikimedia-l] To Flow or not to Flow

2014-09-10 Thread Martijn Hoekstra
On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 9:55 AM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com wrote: Hoi, I expected that it was obvious... Arguments that are based on desktop experiences are futile because the desktop experience is the lesser of two evils. The desktop experience is already bad, the experience

Re: [Wikimedia-l] To Flow or not to Flow

2014-09-10 Thread Keegan Peterzell
In case it's not clear enough in my sig, this is my personal opinion: On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 12:20 AM, Martijn Hoekstra martijnhoeks...@gmail.com wrote: On Sep 10, 2014 5:11 AM, Keegan Peterzell keegan.w...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Sep 9, 2014 at 10:04 AM, Wil Sinclair w...@wllm.com

Re: [Wikimedia-l] To Flow or not to Flow

2014-09-10 Thread Martijn Hoekstra
I'd like to note that the following is my personal opinion, and any resemblance to the opinions of the Wikipedia community or any parts therof, Jimmy Wales, the NSA, the Dutch government, Y-combinator, the national library of Australia, the British Housewives' League, and/or any other opinion of

[Wikimedia-l] wikipedia access traces ?

2014-09-10 Thread Valerio Schiavoni
Dear WikiMedia foundation, in the context of a EU research project [1], we are interested in accessing wikipedia access traces. In the past, such traces were given for research purposes to other groups [2]. Unfortunately, only a small percentage (10%) of that trace has been made made available

Re: [Wikimedia-l] wikipedia access traces ?

2014-09-10 Thread Pine W
Hi Valerio, This kind of request is a better fit for the Research mailing list. I've included the email for that list in the To: line of this email reply. Pine On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 4:15 AM, Valerio Schiavoni valerio.schiav...@gmail.com wrote: Dear WikiMedia foundation, in the context of

Re: [Wikimedia-l] To Flow or not to Flow

2014-09-10 Thread Andrew Gray
On 8 September 2014 08:22, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: On 8 September 2014 05:46, John Mark Vandenberg jay...@gmail.com wrote: If it is good software, the projects will *ask* for it to be deployed, like they did with LiquidThreads, and users will want to use it on their user talk

Re: [Wikimedia-l] To Flow or not to Flow

2014-09-10 Thread David Gerard
On 10 September 2014 12:54, Andrew Gray andrew.g...@dunelm.org.uk wrote: * inter-wiki or intra-wiki integration of multiple-venue discussions rather than several parallel pages and potentially parallel discussions (not a very frequent issue, but a messy one when needed; Pine notes this below)

Re: [Wikimedia-l] To Flow or not to Flow

2014-09-10 Thread Risker
On 10 September 2014 07:54, Andrew Gray andrew.g...@dunelm.org.uk wrote: On 8 September 2014 08:22, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: snip * potential to work with Notifications (tell me when anyone replies to this discussion) without needing individual pings or relying on spotting

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Access by Wikimedia volunteers to WMF records about them

2014-09-10 Thread Luis Villa
On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 12:27 AM, Fæ fae...@gmail.com wrote: Should WMF Legal say they are happy for me to do so, I will be happy to publish their reply in full. Our reply, as I sent it at 7:58 pm Pacific time, Sep. 9: === Hi, Ashley- As you know, the Wikimedia Foundation keeps

Re: [Wikimedia-l] To Flow or not to Flow

2014-09-10 Thread MF-Warburg
Am 10.09.2014 09:56 schrieb Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com: Hoi, I expected that it was obvious... Arguments that are based on desktop experiences are futile because the desktop experience is the lesser of two evils. The desktop experience is already bad, the experience on mobiles

Re: [Wikimedia-l] To Flow or not to Flow

2014-09-10 Thread Martijn Hoekstra
On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 2:42 PM, Risker risker...@gmail.com wrote: On 10 September 2014 07:54, Andrew Gray andrew.g...@dunelm.org.uk wrote: On 8 September 2014 08:22, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: snip * potential to work with Notifications (tell me when anyone replies to

Re: [Wikimedia-l] To Flow or not to Flow

2014-09-10 Thread Marc A. Pelletier
On 09/10/2014 11:45 AM, MF-Warburg wrote: What do you propose to make talk pages easier to read and analyse? That's a hard question, and I expect one where a lot of UX experimentation will need to take place before we know. But one thing /is/ known: it's going to be feasible iff the data is

Re: [Wikimedia-l] To Flow or not to Flow

2014-09-10 Thread David Gerard
On 10 September 2014 16:48, Marc A. Pelletier m...@uberbox.org wrote: On 09/10/2014 11:45 AM, MF-Warburg wrote: What do you propose to make talk pages easier to read and analyse? That's a hard question, and I expect one where a lot of UX experimentation will need to take place before we

Re: [Wikimedia-l] To Flow or not to Flow

2014-09-10 Thread Marc A. Pelletier
On 09/10/2014 11:53 AM, David Gerard wrote: Making entering text on a phone a process not made entirely of pain will be interesting. I don't think it's the text proper that's the issue so much as the navigation and (often) markup that uses a great deal of punctuation that phone interfaces were

Re: [Wikimedia-l] To Flow or not to Flow

2014-09-10 Thread David Gerard
On 10 September 2014 17:29, Marc A. Pelletier m...@uberbox.org wrote: Clearly, text discussion with people on phones is a known use case - and arguably the primary use of those things nowadays - so it's not like we're blazing new trails there. Editing /documents/ is a different beast

Re: [Wikimedia-l] To Flow or not to Flow

2014-09-10 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi, Ditch talk pages asap. In my opinion tinkering is mostly a waste of effort. Thanks, GerardM On 10 September 2014 17:45, MF-Warburg mfwarb...@googlemail.com wrote: Am 10.09.2014 09:56 schrieb Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com: Hoi, I expected that it was obvious...

Re: [Wikimedia-l] To Flow or not to Flow

2014-09-10 Thread Diego Moya
On 10 September 2014 17:47, Martijn Hoekstra I think this is something of an oops, and not really something we should judge the product on. Currently the broken mess is notify on all posts on all threads on the page, which should be notify on all posts on the subscribed thread, and possible on

Re: [Wikimedia-l] To Flow or not to Flow

2014-09-10 Thread Diego Moya
Gerard, please think of the consequences of what you're proposing. There are features at talk pages (detailed watchlists, incremental diffs, true deletion of content) that allow editors and admins to detect and combat vandalism and remove BLP sensible material and libel; features which are not

Re: [Wikimedia-l] To Flow or not to Flow

2014-09-10 Thread Marc A. Pelletier
On 09/10/2014 01:25 PM, Diego Moya wrote: [...] that allow editors and admins to detect and combat vandalism and remove BLP sensible material and libel; features which are not available in Flow as of today. That is simply not true, at last as of the master branch. Topics and replies can be

Re: [Wikimedia-l] To Flow or not to Flow

2014-09-10 Thread David Gerard
On 10 September 2014 18:29, Marc A. Pelletier m...@uberbox.org wrote: Indeed, the Flow equivalent is even superior in at least one aspect: given that the actual comments are isolated and not differences between revision, supressing a comment containing libel that has gone unnoticed for a bit

Re: [Wikimedia-l] To Flow or not to Flow

2014-09-10 Thread James Forrester
On 10 September 2014 04:58, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: On 10 September 2014 12:54, Andrew Gray andrew.g...@dunelm.org.uk wrote: * inter-wiki or intra-wiki integration of multiple-venue discussions rather than several parallel pages and potentially parallel discussions (not a

Re: [Wikimedia-l] To Flow or not to Flow

2014-09-10 Thread Diego Moya
On 10 September 2014 19:29, Marc A. Pelletier m...@uberbox.org wrote: On 09/10/2014 01:25 PM, Diego Moya wrote: [...] that allow editors and admins to detect and combat vandalism and remove BLP sensible material and libel; features which are not available in Flow as of today. That is simply

Re: [Wikimedia-l] To Flow or not to Flow

2014-09-10 Thread David Gerard
On 10 September 2014 18:37, James Forrester jforres...@wikimedia.org wrote: There have been proposals to use a right-hand bar to show information relevant to the content in view (see related Wikidata item; articles on this subject in other languages use these images; etc.); that could be a

Re: [Wikimedia-l] To Flow or not to Flow

2014-09-10 Thread Todd Allen
I think that would be very helpful indeed. This part of the article was most recently discussed under subject Stop changing the genre. Click here to review or participate in the discussion. On Sep 10, 2014 11:38 AM, James Forrester jforres...@wikimedia.org wrote: On 10 September 2014 04:58,

Re: [Wikimedia-l] To Flow or not to Flow

2014-09-10 Thread Martijn Hoekstra
On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 7:17 PM, Diego Moya dialm...@gmail.com wrote: On 10 September 2014 17:47, Martijn Hoekstra I think this is something of an oops, and not really something we should judge the product on. Currently the broken mess is notify on all posts on all threads on the page,

Re: [Wikimedia-l] To Flow or not to Flow

2014-09-10 Thread David Gerard
On 10 September 2014 18:48, Todd Allen toddmal...@gmail.com wrote: I think that would be very helpful indeed. This part of the article was most recently discussed under subject Stop changing the genre. Click here to review or participate in the discussion. This being Wikipedia, we need to

Re: [Wikimedia-l] To Flow or not to Flow

2014-09-10 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi, Asap stands for as soon as possible. It is obvious that there I do not like the talk pages at all. That does not mean that it makes sense to replace them tomorrow. I want us to cut the crap. Absolutely get rid of talk pages and understand what it is EXACTLY what the cost benefit is of such a

Re: [Wikimedia-l] To Flow or not to Flow

2014-09-10 Thread Marc A. Pelletier
On 09/10/2014 01:41 PM, Diego Moya wrote: Take a look at this deleted topic at the test page that was deployed at en.wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topic:S214uoczkp47cfsx As far as I can tell, you could see it because it never /was/ deleted. I just deleted it, can you still see it? I

Re: [Wikimedia-l] To Flow or not to Flow

2014-09-10 Thread James Forrester
On 10 September 2014 10:52, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: On 10 September 2014 18:48, Todd Allen toddmal...@gmail.com wrote: I think that would be very helpful indeed. This part of the article was most recently discussed under subject Stop changing the genre. Click here to review

Re: [Wikimedia-l] To Flow or not to Flow

2014-09-10 Thread David Gerard
On 10 September 2014 18:54, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com wrote: When a specific way of working insists on talk pages, it means that the associated workflow has to be revisited and changed with urgency. It cannot be permitted that special interests take the whole of the much needed

Re: [Wikimedia-l] To Flow or not to Flow

2014-09-10 Thread Martijn Hoekstra
On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 7:54 PM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com wrote: Hoi, Asap stands for as soon as possible. It is obvious that there I do not like the talk pages at all. That does not mean that it makes sense to replace them tomorrow. I want us to cut the crap. Absolutely

Re: [Wikimedia-l] To Flow or not to Flow

2014-09-10 Thread David Gerard
On 10 September 2014 18:59, James Forrester jforres...@wikimedia.org wrote: Eh. I'm not particularly interested in building features that only work in VE and not wikitext, and particularly not in ones that would require changing both the wikitext used to write talk pages for the benefit of VE

Re: [Wikimedia-l] To Flow or not to Flow

2014-09-10 Thread James Forrester
On 10 September 2014 11:01, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: On 10 September 2014 18:59, James Forrester jforres...@wikimedia.org wrote: Eh. I'm not particularly interested in building features that only work in VE and not wikitext, and particularly not in ones that would require

Re: [Wikimedia-l] To Flow or not to Flow

2014-09-10 Thread Michael Peel
On 8 Sep 2014, at 08:22, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: On 8 September 2014 05:46, John Mark Vandenberg jay...@gmail.com wrote: If it is good software, the projects will *ask* for it to be deployed, like they did with LiquidThreads, and users will want to use it on their user talk

Re: [Wikimedia-l] To Flow or not to Flow

2014-09-10 Thread Wil Sinclair
On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 7:54 PM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com wrote: Hoi, Asap stands for as soon as possible. It is obvious that there I do not like the talk pages at all. That does not mean that it makes sense to replace them tomorrow. I want us to cut the crap. Absolutely

Re: [Wikimedia-l] To Flow or not to Flow

2014-09-10 Thread Diego Moya
Right, it's gone now. However that page survived the attempts of removal from several administrators who positively wanted to get rid of any trace of the Wikipedia:Teahouse/Questions/Flow test page, so I don't know what it says about the discoverability of those features :-/ It's disturbing to

Re: [Wikimedia-l] To Flow or not to Flow

2014-09-10 Thread Brad Jorsch (Anomie)
this represents my personal opinion and in no way is anything official On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 1:17 PM, Diego Moya dialm...@gmail.com wrote: The feature shouldn't be notify on all posts on the subscribed thread either. I don't want to be notified every time a new thread appears at any one of

Re: [Wikimedia-l] To Flow or not to Flow

2014-09-10 Thread Diego Moya
On 10 September 2014 19:52, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: On 10 September 2014 18:48, Todd Allen toddmal...@gmail.com wrote: I think that would be very helpful indeed. This part of the article was most recently discussed under subject Stop changing the genre. Click here to review or

Re: [Wikimedia-l] To Flow or not to Flow

2014-09-10 Thread Diego Moya
On 10 September 2014 22:28, Brad Jorsch (Anomie) bjor...@wikimedia.org wrote: On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 1:17 PM, Diego Moya dialm...@gmail.com wrote: I have about 3000 pages in my watchlist, and receive around 400 updates daily only from talk pages, which 50 or so come from unique pages;

Re: [Wikimedia-l] To Flow or not to Flow

2014-09-10 Thread Diego Moya
On 10 September 2014 19:49, Martijn Hoekstra martijnhoeks...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 7:17 PM, Diego Moya dialm...@gmail.com wrote: The feature shouldn't be notify on all posts on the subscribed thread either. I don't want to be notified every time a new thread appears at any

Re: [Wikimedia-l] To Flow or not to Flow

2014-09-10 Thread Martijn Hoekstra
On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 10:42 PM, Diego Moya dialm...@gmail.com wrote: On 10 September 2014 19:49, Martijn Hoekstra martijnhoeks...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 7:17 PM, Diego Moya dialm...@gmail.com wrote: The feature shouldn't be notify on all posts on the subscribed thread

Re: [Wikimedia-l] To Flow or not to Flow

2014-09-10 Thread James Salsman
Wil Sinclair wrote: Flow needs a deep and broad community consensus to what would probably amount to the biggest single change in the history of the project for the day-to-day collaboration amongst editors that is so vital to our success. Wouldn't it be easier to achieve such consensus if

Re: [Wikimedia-l] To Flow or not to Flow

2014-09-10 Thread Diego Moya
On 10 September 2014 22:49, Martijn Hoekstra martijnhoeks...@gmail.com wrote: That doesn't make any difference, Martijn. I ''want'' to be subscribed to all the topics at my 3000 pages, I just don't want to get a notification for all them; I want to actively seek most of those at the watchlist

Re: [Wikimedia-l] To Flow or not to Flow

2014-09-10 Thread Tim Davenport
Having listened for the last week or two, here's what I'm getting as the WMF perspective as the three primary things attempting to be remedied with Flow: 1) Newcomers and casual contributors have a very hard time using wiki markup language and find it difficult to participate in talk pages. Flow

Re: [Wikimedia-l] To Flow or not to Flow

2014-09-10 Thread Wil Sinclair
Tim, do you think that this list of all the useful stuff that talk pages can currently includes things that aren't being done because they are too advanced for newbie editors or too inconvenient for veterans? Regardless, you make a strong argument for keeping a meta-document that spans threads

Re: [Wikimedia-l] To Flow or not to Flow

2014-09-10 Thread Diego Moya
On 10 September 2014 19:54, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com wrote: I want us to cut the crap. Absolutely get rid of talk pages and understand what it is EXACTLY what the cost benefit is of such a change. That should be known in advance, before removing the old mechanisms, not as a

Re: [Wikimedia-l] To Flow or not to Flow

2014-09-10 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi, What should be known in advance are the features that are important and how those features function in a workflow. During the development of software we work towards implementing such features and corresponding functionality. We may allow for partial implementation when it fulfills a need