Re: [Wikimedia-l] WMF is shutting down grantmaking for good projects for 3 months for no reason

2015-01-08 Thread Bjoern Hoehrmann
* Sydney Poore wrote:
It has become pretty obvious that funding the interests/values of existing
community members through regular channels is not creating content free of
systemic bias in general nor closing the human gender gap. (I say this as
someone who has read all types of WMF funding proposals and evaluations of
for several years now.)

Temporarily doing a 3 month targeted Gender Gap experimental campaign is a
modest approach to take in addressing one of the biggest weaknesses of
Wikimedia Foundation projects. The reaction of some members of the
community was predictable, because it is evident in the majority of
previous and current funding requests that increasing the diversity of the
larger Wikimedia movement is secondary priority of most existing people and
organizations.

Proposed projects with a good chance to measurably shrink the gender
gap are not being denied adequate funding as far as I can tell. Without
actual resource shortages concerning the gender gap topic with respect
to grants, be that money or staff time for proposal reviews, what we
have here is a solution looking for a problem. We would have a different
kind of discussion if we were talking about there is a huge backlog of
great gender gap projects in need of funding, but you don't say that it
is evident in the *rejection* of requests, you say that's evident in the
requests themself. Earlier Siko Bouterse wrote the same, these kinds of
projects haven’t emerged organically at any meaningful scale.
-- 
Björn Höhrmann · mailto:bjo...@hoehrmann.de · http://bjoern.hoehrmann.de
D-10243 Berlin · PGP Pub. KeyID: 0xA4357E78 · http://www.bjoernsworld.de
 Available for hire in Berlin (early 2015)  · http://www.websitedev.de/ 

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] WMF is shutting down grantmaking for good projects for 3 months for no reason

2015-01-08 Thread Gregory Varnum
When I first heard about the idea - I was timid and concerned. However,
after reading the responses - I am not sure that everyone is looking at
this the right way. My concerns have been addressed, largely by the
commitment to accept time-sensitive requests and the description of the
idea.

It has become increasingly common for grant organizations to encourage
applicants to focus their programs on target areas - sometimes that
requirement applies to the enter year. However, that generally does not
mean you cannot submit your usual programs and ideas - it just challenges
you to expand them in a particular focus area. Given the focus on gender
gap work in the tech sector, starting with that during a trial run seems
logical.

It seems to me that this would be a good excuse for events like WLM, Wiki
Loves Pride, Wikimedia Conference, and others possibly planning during
those months to consider how to increase the focus on the gender gap.
Promoting themes that encourage articles about women (we already know there
are huge gaps in a lot of professions), Pride could give prizes to great
articles about lesbian pioneers, or WLM could promote photos of female
inspired or involved architectural projects. With the possible exception of
things like specific tech development projects, I think most outreach
projects could be challenged to find a way to include addressing the gender
gap into their plans for work that would be funded during those months.

I'm not sure that this threatens gender gap projects after that period, or
threatens projects that are not traditionally seen as gender gap focused.
If it does, then we will know it didn't work. But I would encourage folks
to think of this as a challenge on how they can help include addressing
gender gap in their programming rather than viewing it as an obstacle to
funding.

Plus, it sounds like the underlying message remains what it always is - if
you have an idea and are concerned about the timelines - contact the
grantmaking staff or volunteers to talk it through.

-greg aka varnent

On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 6:33 PM, Sydney Poore sydney.po...@gmail.com wrote:

 Values. It is a matter of values.

 If you believe, as I do, that lack of diversity of Wikimedia projects is
 seriously compromising the content of the projects then designing a
 campaign that addresses one or more aspects of this concern is a reasonable
 top priority even if it displaces other interests/values.

 It has become pretty obvious that funding the interests/values of existing
 community members through regular channels is not creating content free of
 systemic bias in general nor closing the human gender gap. (I say this as
 someone who has read all types of WMF funding proposals and evaluations of
 for several years now.)

 Temporarily doing a 3 month targeted Gender Gap experimental campaign is a
 modest approach to take in addressing one of the biggest weaknesses of
 Wikimedia Foundation projects. The reaction of some members of the
 community was predictable, because it is evident in the majority of
 previous and current funding requests that increasing the diversity of the
 larger Wikimedia movement is secondary priority of most existing people and
 organizations. (Of course there are other wikimedians who also share my
 passion. I greatly appreciate your work!)

 My inspiration for continuing to do volunteer work for the wikimedia
 movement has largely come from the people inside the parent WMF and the WMF
 Board. Despite the constant criticism from the community, I find the
 folks employed at the WMF to be hard core believers in the Wikimedia
 movement and share my value of increasing the diversity of the community
 and content, and working to eliminate systemic bias in content.

 So it is not surprising to me that there is disconnect between the
 community and the WMF staff and Board around supporting current volunteers
 and recruiting a more diverse community.

 I appreciate the WMF grant team for doing this type of experimentation, and
 encourage other WMF affiliated organizations (chapters, thematic
 organization, and user groups) to not be timid in addressing all types of
 diversity and systemic bias by narrowing their focus in order to get the
 best results.

 I sincerely apologize if some people reading my comment feel under
 appreciated and become dispirited. But creating a diverse wikimedia
 movement  in order to eliminate entrenched systemic bias is a stronger
 value for me. I hope that hearing from someone like myself who is inspired
 by the experiment will change the minds of some people.

 But even if that doesn't happen it is important to me to speak out in
 support of the Inspire Gender Gap campaign and the staff  volunteers who
 share my vision of collecting and disseminating free content to everyone in
 the world.

 Warm regards to all people everywhere in the wikimedia movement!

 Sydney

 Sydney Poore
 User:FloNight
 Wikipedian in Residence
 at Cochrane Collaboration

 On Sat, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] WMF is shutting down grantmaking for good projects for 3 months for no reason

2015-01-08 Thread Sydney Poore
Values. It is a matter of values.

If you believe, as I do, that lack of diversity of Wikimedia projects is
seriously compromising the content of the projects then designing a
campaign that addresses one or more aspects of this concern is a reasonable
top priority even if it displaces other interests/values.

It has become pretty obvious that funding the interests/values of existing
community members through regular channels is not creating content free of
systemic bias in general nor closing the human gender gap. (I say this as
someone who has read all types of WMF funding proposals and evaluations of
for several years now.)

Temporarily doing a 3 month targeted Gender Gap experimental campaign is a
modest approach to take in addressing one of the biggest weaknesses of
Wikimedia Foundation projects. The reaction of some members of the
community was predictable, because it is evident in the majority of
previous and current funding requests that increasing the diversity of the
larger Wikimedia movement is secondary priority of most existing people and
organizations. (Of course there are other wikimedians who also share my
passion. I greatly appreciate your work!)

My inspiration for continuing to do volunteer work for the wikimedia
movement has largely come from the people inside the parent WMF and the WMF
Board. Despite the constant criticism from the community, I find the
folks employed at the WMF to be hard core believers in the Wikimedia
movement and share my value of increasing the diversity of the community
and content, and working to eliminate systemic bias in content.

So it is not surprising to me that there is disconnect between the
community and the WMF staff and Board around supporting current volunteers
and recruiting a more diverse community.

I appreciate the WMF grant team for doing this type of experimentation, and
encourage other WMF affiliated organizations (chapters, thematic
organization, and user groups) to not be timid in addressing all types of
diversity and systemic bias by narrowing their focus in order to get the
best results.

I sincerely apologize if some people reading my comment feel under
appreciated and become dispirited. But creating a diverse wikimedia
movement  in order to eliminate entrenched systemic bias is a stronger
value for me. I hope that hearing from someone like myself who is inspired
by the experiment will change the minds of some people.

But even if that doesn't happen it is important to me to speak out in
support of the Inspire Gender Gap campaign and the staff  volunteers who
share my vision of collecting and disseminating free content to everyone in
the world.

Warm regards to all people everywhere in the wikimedia movement!

Sydney

Sydney Poore
User:FloNight
Wikipedian in Residence
at Cochrane Collaboration

On Sat, Jan 3, 2015 at 5:26 AM, Romaine Wiki romaine.w...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hi all,

 Some disturbing news entered my mailbox the past days. The grant making
 team is going to shut down the grantmaking process for Project and Event
 Grants (PEG) and Individual Engagement Grants (IEG) for three full months!

 They have decided that they want to focus only on a specific strategic
 priority: the gender gap, and that all other good projects are refused for
 3 months (February-April).

 Having more attention to a strategic priority is fine to me. Having more
 attention to the problem of the gender gap, sounds good to me as such, we
 can use much more projects and content in those areas. But that does not
 mean that many many volunteers who are organizing other projects should
 become the victim of other projects.

 This is a negative signal to all those volunteers who are currently working
 on project plans to be submitted in February, March and April. Good
 projects to be ignored, just because the WMF think those are less
 important. They say this is a positive campaign, but this sounds as a
 negative campaign to me. This discourages many volunteers in doing
 projects.

 And even worse: this is only to be generally announced 2 weeks before that
 period of shutting down starts! (this sounds like a joke, sadly it isn't)

 To organize a good project volunteers (yes, we are still unpaid! and
 organize these projects in our spare time!) we need the time to communicate
 well with all our partners and sponsors, and need the time to come up with
 a good project plan with a stable basis. Rushing a project in just a couple
 of weeks time is very unpleasant and does not help in getting a good
 quality project. And announcing it two weeks before the period indicates
 that organizers aren't taken seriously (enough).

 For example, we are currently planning to organize Wiki Loves Monuments in
 2015 again, the world wide contest to have a better documentation and
 better display of all the cultural monuments worldwide, recognised as
 largest photo contest in the world by Guinness World Records. We are
 currently working on forming a team and want to have a good 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision

2015-01-08 Thread Oliver Keyes
On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 11:59 AM, Srikanth Ramakrishnan 
srik.r...@wikimedia.in wrote:

 Where is anyone whining about this?
 Nobody here is.
 The point being made is about why other grants are not being accepted.


So, to summarise:

Please, let's stop complaining on the basis that this excludes men
Where is anyone doing that? We're complaining on the basis that this
excludes men.



 On 08-Jan-2015 10:06 pm, Keilana keilanaw...@gmail.com wrote:

  Hearing people whine “what about the men” because, God forbid, men might
  not get *every single* grant this time (as they did in the pilot round of
  IEGs), is incredibly tiresome.
 
  On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 10:30 AM, Peter Southwood 
  peter.southw...@telkomsa.net wrote:
 
   If you take it entirely at face value, I find it quite inoffensive.
 As I
   have no experience with reviewing grant proposals, I can't comment on
 its
   accuracy, but I am quite happy to take Fred's word for it.
   Offence is often available if you search for it hard enough.
   Cheers,
   Peter
  
   -Original Message-
   From: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:
   wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Fæ
   Sent: 08 January 2015 06:17 PM
   To: Wikimedia Mailing List
   Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender
   gap project-related decision
  
   On 8 Jan 2015 16:11, FRED BAUDER fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote:
   ...
 I've noticed that women are often quite motivated and good at
 writing
   grant proposals.
  
   Extending good faith I would presume this is irony. It does not
 transmit
   well by email. Please keep in mind how offensive this sort of thing
  appears.
  
   Fae
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision

2015-01-08 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
The only point for this experiment is that there is not enough bandwidth to
cope with all the  requests for funding as it is. The idea is that by
concentrating on one area it is possible to do more. The argument against
is that it is highly demotivating for everyone that finds its request for
funding on hold. In addition, there is no continuity for a subject once its
period of attention is over and another subjects gets the treatment.

Thanks,
   GerardM

On 8 January 2015 at 18:03, Oliver Keyes ironho...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 11:59 AM, Srikanth Ramakrishnan 
 srik.r...@wikimedia.in wrote:

  Where is anyone whining about this?
  Nobody here is.
  The point being made is about why other grants are not being accepted.
 

 So, to summarise:

 Please, let's stop complaining on the basis that this excludes men
 Where is anyone doing that? We're complaining on the basis that this
 excludes men.



  On 08-Jan-2015 10:06 pm, Keilana keilanaw...@gmail.com wrote:
 
   Hearing people whine “what about the men” because, God forbid, men
 might
   not get *every single* grant this time (as they did in the pilot round
 of
   IEGs), is incredibly tiresome.
  
   On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 10:30 AM, Peter Southwood 
   peter.southw...@telkomsa.net wrote:
  
If you take it entirely at face value, I find it quite inoffensive.
  As I
have no experience with reviewing grant proposals, I can't comment on
  its
accuracy, but I am quite happy to take Fred's word for it.
Offence is often available if you search for it hard enough.
Cheers,
Peter
   
-Original Message-
From: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:
wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Fæ
Sent: 08 January 2015 06:17 PM
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month
 gender
gap project-related decision
   
On 8 Jan 2015 16:11, FRED BAUDER fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote:
...
  I've noticed that women are often quite motivated and good at
  writing
grant proposals.
   
Extending good faith I would presume this is irony. It does not
  transmit
well by email. Please keep in mind how offensive this sort of thing
   appears.
   
Fae
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikimedia Announcements] Fwd: Tilman Bayer joins Product Strategy Department

2015-01-08 Thread Oliver Keyes
Indeed, although as I understand it he's going to be independent of the
actual Research  Data team.

On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 5:18 PM, Federico Leva (Nemo) nemow...@gmail.com
wrote:

 Erik Moeller, 07/01/2015 20:36:

 It’s my pleasure to announce that Tilman Bayer is joining the
 Foundation’s Product  Strategy department as Senior Analyst. I would
 like to thank Katherine Maher for supporting and helping to prepare this
 move from the Communications department.


 Thanks. If I understand correctly and this means we'll see more Tilman in
 research-y stuff, without reducing WMF transparency, it's great!

 I have a number of questions though, see
 * https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:
 Contributionsdir=prevoffset=20150108212736limit=3target=Nemo+bis
 * http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.org.wikimedia.foundation/75430/focus=76554

 Nemo

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Is there some Wikimedia project to host contents based on original research?

2015-01-08 Thread JP Béland
Wikibooks.

2015-01-06 11:02 GMT-07:00 Castelo Branco michelcastelobra...@gmail.com:

 +1 Ting Chen

 Original research in a wiki way = Wikiversity
 Original report (for recent events) and interviews = Wikinews

 Regards,

 Michel Castelo Branco

 2015-01-05 12:07 GMT-02:00 Ting Chen wing.phil...@gmx.de:

  Hello Sucheta,
 
  for me this looks like a good restart for Wikiversity. For me beside of
  providing university courses one of the target of Wikiversity is also
  always to be actually do crowd sourced research works.
 
  Best regards
  Ting
 
 
  Am 01/05/2015 um 02:30 PM schrieb Sucheta Ghoshal:
 
   Hi all,
 
  A few of my friends and I have been planning to document the history of
  counterculture in Bengali art and literature. These friends are also
  working in that domain professionally, and have access to a huge
  repository
  of texts, images, and other relevant details that they are willing to
 make
  available digitally in the form of free contents. We wish to have the
  contents as wikis, and, pictures and video snippets that might be
 involved
  - as properly licensed free materials. Now, the concern is if there is
  some
  Wikimedia Project that would host contents that are based on such an
  enormous amount of original research. Wikipedia is certainly not the
  appropriate place. And, as there exist no earlier works on this
 particular
  domain on the internet, references would be negligible. I was thinking
  about Wikibooks, instead. I am not entirely sure if that fits either,
 but
  I
  assume it fits better than Wikipedia, at least. The last option is to
 host
  it ourselves with the MediaWiki setup, and I am considering it very
 much.
  But, the idea essentially is to make people edit and enrich it with as
  much
  inputs as possible. It would be really helpful, in that case, if it
 could
  be placed in one of the Wikimedia projects. Suggestions, of every kind,
  would be deeply appreciated.
 
  Best,
  Sucheta
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Update regarding WMF's reporting practices

2015-01-08 Thread Federico Leva (Nemo)
Given 
https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2015-January/076324.html, 
some questions.


Erik Moeller, 06/11/2014 07:57:

Format: Effective immediately, we are shifting to a quarterly
reporting format. This will impact our reporting, and the October
through December


https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Report,_September_2014 
is still missing. Who's going to compile it?




As above, the deadline for publication of the first report, covering
October 1 - December 31, is February 15.


Is this confirmed?


For this first report, we are
being conservative with regard to the deadline, as we will have our
resources directed at our staff all-hands and developer summit in
January.

Tilman and I will begin creating a draft structure for this new report
in coming weeks, and will do so in public from the get-go.


Did this happen? If not, will Tilman still help draft this structure?


We will
also rethink the “Wikimedia Highlights” alongside other multilingual
movements news formats, likely detaching them from reporting
functions.

Out of scope of this effort for now:

- Providing more timely updates on initiatives with high user impact.
We’re continuing to provide updates to Tech News [2] and similar
newsletters, but we’re not currently doing a major overhaul here.


Is 
https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2014-October/074889.html 
still accurate in that Guillaume continues tech reports for now?


Nemo


[2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Tech/News
[3] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Engineering/Dashboard



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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikimedia Announcements] Fwd: Tilman Bayer joins Product Strategy Department

2015-01-08 Thread Federico Leva (Nemo)

Erik Moeller, 07/01/2015 20:36:

It’s my pleasure to announce that Tilman Bayer is joining the
Foundation’s Product  Strategy department as Senior Analyst. I would
like to thank Katherine Maher for supporting and helping to prepare this
move from the Communications department.


Thanks. If I understand correctly and this means we'll see more Tilman 
in research-y stuff, without reducing WMF transparency, it's great!


I have a number of questions though, see
* 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributionsdir=prevoffset=20150108212736limit=3target=Nemo+bis

* http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.org.wikimedia.foundation/75430/focus=76554

Nemo

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[Wikimedia-l] VisualEditor office hour for February

2015-01-08 Thread Erica Litrenta
Hi everybody,
and apologies for cross-posting.
I'd like to announce that the next office hour for VisualEditor is in
February, Thursday 19th at 1900 UTC [0].

James Forrester will be available to answer any questions about recent
improvements and to provide details about ongoing and planned work. It is
also a pleasant occasion to share your experience; the team always looks
forward to hearing from you.

Previous logs and other information, including how to participate, can be
found at Meta [1].

Hope to see you in #wikimedia-office then.
Best,
Elitre (WMF)
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Community_Engagement_(Product)
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/VisualEditor/Newsletter

[0]
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[1]  https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/IRC_office_hours
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision

2015-01-08 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
Given that a frequent complaint is the male chauvinist piggery that is
alive and well and meets not much sanction, this behaviour it being given
as one of the main reasons why so many people leave. I do suggest that the
hand above the head holding attitude of culprits is why we do so poorly. As
this is not acknowledged enough, it is not on the radar of people who are
not as flawed as some.
Thanks,
 GerardM

On 8 January 2015 at 11:25, Ilario Valdelli valde...@gmail.com wrote:

 I partially disagree with this vision.

 Without the North American and European men there would not be any
 opportunity to say: we would share the sum of the human knowledge.

 Probably Wikimedia would not exist.

 It is correct to say that Wikimedia must offer to *all people* any
 opportunity without any difference of culture or gender or religion and
 probably to promote some disadvantaged potential contributors, but
 without forgetting that what Wikimedia is now is due to these neglected
 white men.

 I agree with your sentence: In my view our consensus-based decision-making
 model can only work well when there is enough diversity of contributions
 but we must be clear that the diversity of contribution and of opinions is
 not automatically connected with the race or with the gender. The neutral
 point of view has been assured until now, I would not read in your sentence
 that this is wrong.

 There may be men or women gathered in a key decision committee but having
 the same not neutral point of view because the gender doesn't assure
 automatically the neutrality of point of view.

 The risk I see in the association of diversity with the gender or with the
 race is that we can say that having people from different countries or
 different races or different sex it can assure the neutral point of view.

 But that is wrong.

 Regards


 On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 10:59 AM, Chris Keating chriskeatingw...@gmail.com
 
 wrote:

  Hi there,
 
 
   That said, it doesn't matter who writes the content on Wikipedia so
 long
   as it's relevant and factual.
 
 
  
  Who is to decide what is relevant and factual (or indeed, the other
  editorial judgements we make in writing aricles)? If the only people
 doing
  that are white North American and European men with (or working towards)
  masters' degrees*, then their judgements will inevitably reflect their
 own
  backgrounds and perspectives - and other backgrounds and perspectives
 will
  be missing from those judgements.
 
  That does not and will not result in us fulfilling our mission to build
 and
  share the sum of human knowledge.
 
  In my view our consensus-based decision-making model can only work well
  when there is enough diversity of contributions in the first place. It is
  easy for a small group of similar people to reach a consensus. However,
  they are likely to miss important things in doing so.
  Regards,
 
  Chris
 
  * This isn't (quite) a description of the status quo but is pretty close
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 --
 Ilario Valdelli
 Wikimedia CH
 Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
 Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre
 Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera
 Switzerland - 8008 Zürich
 Wikipedia: Ilario https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Ilario
 Skype: valdelli
 Facebook: Ilario Valdelli https://www.facebook.com/ivaldelli
 Twitter: Ilario Valdelli https://twitter.com/ilariovaldelli
 Linkedin: Ilario Valdelli http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=6724469
 
 Tel: +41764821371
 http://www.wikimedia.ch
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fwd: White House response to Aaron Swartz petition

2015-01-08 Thread Federico Leva (Nemo)

Keegan Peterzell, 08/01/2015 09:15:

​For those unfamiliar with American political history in its brief
existence, ​this is entirely expected.


Sure, that part was the least interesting.


The power over who has the right to
hire and fire whom has been the center of our politics since near
inception[1] as well as crucial points in national development[2].

1.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marbury_v._Madison
2.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeachment_of_Andrew_Johnson


I prefer 
https://fr.wikisource.org/wiki/De_la_d%C3%A9mocratie_en_Am%C3%A9rique/%C3%89dition_1848/Tome_2/Deuxi%C3%A8me_partie/Chapitre_8 
/ https://books.google.it/books?id=UXkJ0gvjS0ACpg=PA303


Nemo

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision

2015-01-08 Thread FRED BAUDER

On Thu, 8 Jan 2015 14:53:47 +0530
 Srikanth Ramakrishnan srik.r...@wikimedia.in wrote:

On the internet, nobody knows you're a dog.
Need I say anything else?


I think you've hit the nail on the head. It should not be easier to 
dominate a player-killing MUD than to edit an article on Wikipedia. In 
other words, one should not need to adopt the persona of a snarling 
dog to successfully edit.


Fred


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision

2015-01-08 Thread FRED BAUDER
Thank you for this thoughtful response. In the United States, at 
least, girls routinely test higher than boys on verbal skills and have 
recently surpassed young men in attaining higher education in nearly 
all fields. There is a lot of dead time in the lives of many women. 
They are all over Facebook. Routine child care and housework give 
ample opportunity to research and edit as do many jobs. Objective 
factors which might limit editing are minimal.


Fred

On Thu, 8 Jan 2015 10:47:22 +0100
 Ilario Valdelli valde...@gmail.com wrote:

I think that the realistic point of view should be another.

There is a potential number of people who can be contributors 
(contributors

and not readers) but this potential number must be *realistic*.

Anyway these persons should have something to contribute to 
wikimedia

projects an basically:

a) ability to write (so a sufficient capacity to be active users 
and not

passive, it means a valid education and knowledge)
b) connection to the network (in order to have a continuous 
contribution to

the projects)
c) time to spent (volunteers must have time... a woman with children
probably will dedicate her free time to the family)

So there is a digital divide and a gender gap and so on but probably 
the

barriers cannot be solved within Wikimedia.

For this reason I don't think that half the humans could 
contribute.
There are barriers (education, digital divide, freetime, etc.) that 
can

only be partially solved by Wikimedia.

Please don't do the same simpler association number of speakers =
potential number of contributors because that strategy will be 
*surely*

wrong.

Regards


On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 9:56 AM, FRED BAUDER fredb...@fairpoint.net 
wrote:





That said, it doesn't matter who writes the content on Wikipedia so 
long

as it's relevant and factual.



That's the point; it would not matter if women contributed so long 
as it's

relevant and factual. Half the humans that could contribute are not.
Actually many more than half, as there are barriers other than 
gender.


Fred




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--
Ilario Valdelli
Wikimedia CH
Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre
Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera
Switzerland - 8008 Zürich
Wikipedia: Ilario https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Ilario
Skype: valdelli
Facebook: Ilario Valdelli https://www.facebook.com/ivaldelli
Twitter: Ilario Valdelli https://twitter.com/ilariovaldelli
Linkedin: Ilario Valdelli 
http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=6724469

Tel: +41764821371
http://www.wikimedia.ch
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision

2015-01-08 Thread FRED BAUDER

On Thu, 8 Jan 2015 11:25:23 +0100
 Ilario Valdelli valde...@gmail.com wrote:

I partially disagree with this vision.

Without the North American and European men there would not be any
opportunity to say: we would share the sum of the human knowledge.

Probably Wikimedia would not exist.


True, but our goal was to make knowledge and the opportunity to 
contribute to making knowledge available to everyone.


Fred


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision

2015-01-08 Thread FRED BAUDER

On Thu, 8 Jan 2015 11:29:57 +0100
 Liam Wyatt liamwy...@gmail.com wrote:

As this thread demonstrates, what discussions about the massive
gender imbalance in Wikimedia editorship need is more men discussing 
why it

might or might not be important.

/sarcasm


Radical feminist notions that men should reduce editing or 
participation are counter-productive. The solution is OR not NOT; 
anyone should be able to edit without struggle.


Fred


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision

2015-01-08 Thread Chris Keating
On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 12:09 PM, FRED BAUDER fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote:

 On Thu, 8 Jan 2015 11:29:57 +0100
  Liam Wyatt liamwy...@gmail.com wrote:

 As this thread demonstrates, what discussions about the massive
 gender imbalance in Wikimedia editorship need is more men discussing why
 it
 might or might not be important.

 /sarcasm


 Radical feminist notions that men should reduce editing or participation
 are counter-productive. The solution is OR not NOT; anyone should be able
 to edit without struggle.


I'm not quite sure what you're aiming at here, but Liam's point was that it
was somewhere between unhelpful and downright harmful to have discussions
about the Wikimedia gender gap conducted entirely between men. (It's a bit
like having a discussion about Wikipedia conducted entirely by people
who've never used the internet.)

I would describe this as common sense rather than radical feminism.

Chris
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision

2015-01-08 Thread Risker
I have one simple question:  if the Grants program was to focus on some
other  key area rather than the gender gap, would we be having this
discussion about how horrible it is to waste time this way?  Would we see
throwing up of hands in this way if the focus was, say, requests from the
Global South? A focus on getting great bots built and working across
wikis?  A focus on events and processes for media collection? (Incidentally
the latter more or less happens anyway with several groups applying for
funding for WLM within a narrow period...)


Frankly, there's not a single thing I've read, or a single objection I've
seen raised, that wasn't about how unnecessary it is to focus on women.  I
don't think we've ever heard that about the global south, or non-European
languages, or a lot of other areas where there are acknowledged biases.

Risker/Anne




On 8 January 2015 at 02:07, mcc99 mc...@hotmail.com wrote:

 Dear fellow Wikipedia devotees,

 While I'm new to this list, I've been an avid fan and proponent of
 Wikipedia and all the great service it gives people since it launched.
 People can learn not just all the basics of nearly any topic imaginable,
 but for a large number, readers can with diligence become expert on more
 than a few and save themselves the cost of tuition/training.  All this, in
 addition to satisfying their curiosity about millions of subjects.

 That said, it doesn't matter who writes the content on Wikipedia so long
 as it's relevant and factual.  Unlike the published, single-authority
 edited encyclopediae of the past, Wikipedia allows anyone with relevant
 information to contribute to it.  Their additions or other edits are
 checked by volunteers to make sure the edit isn't a defacement, irrelevant,
 patently unfactual, or unverifiable.  They are typically left as written or
 maybe edited only for grammar/spelling.  Wikipedia is a rare success story
 in democracy of knowledge.  If one feels moved to contribute, they do.  If
 not, they don't.  It's like voting in a sense, though it's true people in
 democracies should perhaps take the opportunity to do so more often.  But
 it's up to them.

 Like voting or anything else, to single out a particular group of people
 based on their indelible characteristics as being desirable as contributors
 to any field implicitly devalues the contributions not just of those
 currently contributing who don't fall into that category, but also says to
 any other group of a particular identity that you care more about the group
 you're trying to get more involvement from than them.  Identity politics
 is unfortunately a fact of our current political climate and I hope one day
 we can, as MLK Jr. hoped, judge one another not by skin color (and I'd add
 gender, sexuality, and a few others), but by content of character.  In the
 context of Wikipedia, this would translate to the veracity and
 applicability of contributions made to the vast Wikipedia knowledge-base --
 not who in particular is doing the contributing, nor their indelible
 characteristics of person.

 Because identity politics is today part of general electoral politics
 doesn't mean it need be for anything else, and especially given how such
 things as a person's ethnicity, gender, sexuality, etc., say nothing about
 what they know about or can do, I don't see how it's relevant to the
 veracity and applicability of Wikipedia's knowledge base.  I don't care
 that, for example, a black person (Charles Drew, MD) came up with the
 process of creating blood plasma, an innovation that has saved millions of
 lives.  He was tragically and mortally injured in a car accident, however,
 and so his potential future achievements were lost to humanity.  (He was
 not refused treatment for his injuries at the hospital he was taken to
 because of his ethnicity, as is widely but falsely believed; he was just so
 badly injured that he died.  See
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_R._Drew#Death ).  I also don't care
 that Adm Grace Hopper (USN) wad female, only that she wrote the first
 computer language compiler so programmers of lesser brain power than her
 (such as myself) could go on to program computers without struggling with
 binary switches and punch cards.  Her contributions were what was
 important, not her gender, skin color, or anything else as far as her
 professional achievements go.

 If you ask any RN the names of the greatest contributors to the nursing
 profession, you'll get a stream of women's names.  To suggest that nursing
 needs more men or else it won't be able to achieve its greatest potential
 would be a crass and inaccurate insult to the many thousands of women who
 have made modern nursing what it is.  Of course there have been and will be
 male nurses who stand out as contributors, but only a very small
 percentage, probably in keeping with the ratio of men to women in nursing.
 And yet, despite the high salaries RNs command, are there any
 gov't-sponsored initiatives to get men 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fwd: White House response to Aaron Swartz petition

2015-01-08 Thread Austin Hair
On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 9:15 AM, Keegan Peterzell keegan.w...@gmail.com wrote:
 For those unfamiliar with American political history in its brief
 existence, this is entirely expected. The power over who has the right to
 hire and fire whom has been the center of our politics since near
 inception[1] as well as crucial points in national development[2].

 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marbury_v._Madison
 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeachment_of_Andrew_Johnson

And, of course, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowsher_v._Synar (so
don't bother writing your Congressman).

Austin

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision

2015-01-08 Thread Michel Vuijlsteke
Yes. Finally, a voice of reason.

On 8 January 2015 at 08:07, mcc99 mc...@hotmail.com wrote:

 Dear fellow Wikipedia devotees,

 While I'm new to this list, I've been an avid fan and proponent of
 Wikipedia and all the great service it gives people since it launched.
 People can learn not just all the basics of nearly any topic imaginable,
 but for a large number, readers can with diligence become expert on more
 than a few and save themselves the cost of tuition/training.  All this, in
 addition to satisfying their curiosity about millions of subjects.

 That said, it doesn't matter who writes the content on Wikipedia so long
 as it's relevant and factual.  Unlike the published, single-authority
 edited encyclopediae of the past, Wikipedia allows anyone with relevant
 information to contribute to it.  Their additions or other edits are
 checked by volunteers to make sure the edit isn't a defacement, irrelevant,
 patently unfactual, or unverifiable.  They are typically left as written or
 maybe edited only for grammar/spelling.  Wikipedia is a rare success story
 in democracy of knowledge.  If one feels moved to contribute, they do.  If
 not, they don't.  It's like voting in a sense, though it's true people in
 democracies should perhaps take the opportunity to do so more often.  But
 it's up to them.

 Like voting or anything else, to single out a particular group of people
 based on their indelible characteristics as being desirable as contributors
 to any field implicitly devalues the contributions not just of those
 currently contributing who don't fall into that category, but also says to
 any other group of a particular identity that you care more about the group
 you're trying to get more involvement from than them.  Identity politics
 is unfortunately a fact of our current political climate and I hope one day
 we can, as MLK Jr. hoped, judge one another not by skin color (and I'd add
 gender, sexuality, and a few others), but by content of character.  In the
 context of Wikipedia, this would translate to the veracity and
 applicability of contributions made to the vast Wikipedia knowledge-base --
 not who in particular is doing the contributing, nor their indelible
 characteristics of person.

 Because identity politics is today part of general electoral politics
 doesn't mean it need be for anything else, and especially given how such
 things as a person's ethnicity, gender, sexuality, etc., say nothing about
 what they know about or can do, I don't see how it's relevant to the
 veracity and applicability of Wikipedia's knowledge base.  I don't care
 that, for example, a black person (Charles Drew, MD) came up with the
 process of creating blood plasma, an innovation that has saved millions of
 lives.  He was tragically and mortally injured in a car accident, however,
 and so his potential future achievements were lost to humanity.  (He was
 not refused treatment for his injuries at the hospital he was taken to
 because of his ethnicity, as is widely but falsely believed; he was just so
 badly injured that he died.  See
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_R._Drew#Death ).  I also don't care
 that Adm Grace Hopper (USN) wad female, only that she wrote the first
 computer language compiler so programmers of lesser brain power than her
 (such as myself) could go on to program computers without struggling with
 binary switches and punch cards.  Her contributions were what was
 important, not her gender, skin color, or anything else as far as her
 professional achievements go.

 If you ask any RN the names of the greatest contributors to the nursing
 profession, you'll get a stream of women's names.  To suggest that nursing
 needs more men or else it won't be able to achieve its greatest potential
 would be a crass and inaccurate insult to the many thousands of women who
 have made modern nursing what it is.  Of course there have been and will be
 male nurses who stand out as contributors, but only a very small
 percentage, probably in keeping with the ratio of men to women in nursing.
 And yet, despite the high salaries RNs command, are there any
 gov't-sponsored initiatives to get men into nursing?  If so, it'd be news
 to me and many others.  But I ask, if men by and large, for whatever
 reasons, aren't interested in becoming nurses, why make a big deal about
 it?  Are there gov't-sponsored campaigns to get more women into the
 relatively lucrative job of refuse collection?  Or, the likewise lucrative
 jobs of plumber, ordnance disposal engineer, nuclear materials technician,
 etc.?  No.  But other fields that are a lot less dirty and/or dangerous,
 yes.  (Think professional STEM fields.)  This isn't by accident, nor is the
 fact that the nursing profession with its high salaries (for RNs, anyway)
 is in no hurry to recruit men simply because they're men.  But why should
 they?  That one receives care from a female vs. male nurse isn't relevant.
 To trumpet a need for men in nursing minimizes the 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision

2015-01-08 Thread FRED BAUDER
 
That said, it doesn't matter who writes the content on Wikipedia so 
long as it's relevant and factual.


That's the point; it would not matter if women contributed so long as 
it's relevant and factual. Half the humans that could contribute are 
not. Actually many more than half, as there are barriers other than 
gender.


Fred



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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Warning: Wikimedia-l Google Group

2015-01-08 Thread Austin Hair
Yes. As stated in my original messages, you can (and should) use the
report link at the bottom of the subscription e-mail.

Austin

On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 6:41 AM, Nurunnaby Hasive
nhas...@wikimedia.org.bd wrote:
 +1 Karthik. Better to report the group.

 On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 11:18 AM, Karthik Nadar karthik...@wikimedia.in
 wrote:

 I think it will be better if most of us can Report the Group.

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[Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision

2015-01-08 Thread mcc99
Dear fellow Wikipedia devotees,

While I'm new to this list, I've been an avid fan and proponent of Wikipedia 
and all the great service it gives people since it launched.  People can learn 
not just all the basics of nearly any topic imaginable, but for a large number, 
readers can with diligence become expert on more than a few and save themselves 
the cost of tuition/training.  All this, in addition to satisfying their 
curiosity about millions of subjects.

That said, it doesn't matter who writes the content on Wikipedia so long as 
it's relevant and factual.  Unlike the published, single-authority edited 
encyclopediae of the past, Wikipedia allows anyone with relevant information to 
contribute to it.  Their additions or other edits are checked by volunteers to 
make sure the edit isn't a defacement, irrelevant, patently unfactual, or 
unverifiable.  They are typically left as written or maybe edited only for 
grammar/spelling.  Wikipedia is a rare success story in democracy of knowledge. 
 If one feels moved to contribute, they do.  If not, they don't.  It's like 
voting in a sense, though it's true people in democracies should perhaps take 
the opportunity to do so more often.  But it's up to them.

Like voting or anything else, to single out a particular group of people based 
on their indelible characteristics as being desirable as contributors to any 
field implicitly devalues the contributions not just of those currently 
contributing who don't fall into that category, but also says to any other 
group of a particular identity that you care more about the group you're trying 
to get more involvement from than them.  Identity politics is unfortunately a 
fact of our current political climate and I hope one day we can, as MLK Jr. 
hoped, judge one another not by skin color (and I'd add gender, sexuality, and 
a few others), but by content of character.  In the context of Wikipedia, this 
would translate to the veracity and applicability of contributions made to the 
vast Wikipedia knowledge-base -- not who in particular is doing the 
contributing, nor their indelible characteristics of person.

Because identity politics is today part of general electoral politics doesn't 
mean it need be for anything else, and especially given how such things as a 
person's ethnicity, gender, sexuality, etc., say nothing about what they know 
about or can do, I don't see how it's relevant to the veracity and 
applicability of Wikipedia's knowledge base.  I don't care that, for example, a 
black person (Charles Drew, MD) came up with the process of creating blood 
plasma, an innovation that has saved millions of lives.  He was tragically and 
mortally injured in a car accident, however, and so his potential future 
achievements were lost to humanity.  (He was not refused treatment for his 
injuries at the hospital he was taken to because of his ethnicity, as is widely 
but falsely believed; he was just so badly injured that he died.  See 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_R._Drew#Death ).  I also don't care that 
Adm Grace Hopper (USN) wad female, only that she wrote the first computer 
language compiler so programmers of lesser brain power than her (such as 
myself) could go on to program computers without struggling with binary 
switches and punch cards.  Her contributions were what was important, not her 
gender, skin color, or anything else as far as her professional achievements go.

If you ask any RN the names of the greatest contributors to the nursing 
profession, you'll get a stream of women's names.  To suggest that nursing 
needs more men or else it won't be able to achieve its greatest potential 
would be a crass and inaccurate insult to the many thousands of women who have 
made modern nursing what it is.  Of course there have been and will be male 
nurses who stand out as contributors, but only a very small percentage, 
probably in keeping with the ratio of men to women in nursing.  And yet, 
despite the high salaries RNs command, are there any gov't-sponsored 
initiatives to get men into nursing?  If so, it'd be news to me and many 
others.  But I ask, if men by and large, for whatever reasons, aren't 
interested in becoming nurses, why make a big deal about it?  Are there 
gov't-sponsored campaigns to get more women into the relatively lucrative job 
of refuse collection?  Or, the likewise lucrative jobs of plumber, ordnance 
disposal engineer, nuclear materials technician, etc.?  No.  But other fields 
that are a lot less dirty and/or dangerous, yes.  (Think professional STEM 
fields.)  This isn't by accident, nor is the fact that the nursing profession 
with its high salaries (for RNs, anyway) is in no hurry to recruit men simply 
because they're men.  But why should they?  That one receives care from a 
female vs. male nurse isn't relevant.  To trumpet a need for men in nursing 
minimizes the huge contributions of women nurses and is a patently false 
proposition.  Nursing needs competent, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision

2015-01-08 Thread Srikanth Ramakrishnan
On the internet, nobody knows you're a dog.
Need I say anything else?
On 08-Jan-2015 2:45 pm, FRED BAUDER fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote:



 That said, it doesn't matter who writes the content on Wikipedia so long
 as it's relevant and factual.


 That's the point; it would not matter if women contributed so long as it's
 relevant and factual. Half the humans that could contribute are not.
 Actually many more than half, as there are barriers other than gender.

 Fred



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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fwd: White House response to Aaron Swartz petition

2015-01-08 Thread Keegan Peterzell
On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 1:05 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) nemow...@gmail.com
wrote:


 As to the specific personnel-related requests raised in your petitions,
 our response must be limited. Consistent with the terms we laid out when
 we began We the People,
 we will not address agency personnel matters in a petition response,
 because we do not believe this is the appropriate forum in which to do so.


​For those unfamiliar with American political history in its brief
existence, ​this is entirely expected. The power over who has the right to
hire and fire whom has been the center of our politics since near
inception[1] as well as crucial points in national development[2].

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marbury_v._Madison
2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeachment_of_Andrew_Johnson

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This is my personal email address. Everything sent from this email address
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision

2015-01-08 Thread Ilario Valdelli
I think that the realistic point of view should be another.

There is a potential number of people who can be contributors (contributors
and not readers) but this potential number must be *realistic*.

Anyway these persons should have something to contribute to wikimedia
projects an basically:

a) ability to write (so a sufficient capacity to be active users and not
passive, it means a valid education and knowledge)
b) connection to the network (in order to have a continuous contribution to
the projects)
c) time to spent (volunteers must have time... a woman with children
probably will dedicate her free time to the family)

So there is a digital divide and a gender gap and so on but probably the
barriers cannot be solved within Wikimedia.

For this reason I don't think that half the humans could contribute.
There are barriers (education, digital divide, freetime, etc.) that can
only be partially solved by Wikimedia.

Please don't do the same simpler association number of speakers =
potential number of contributors because that strategy will be *surely*
wrong.

Regards


On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 9:56 AM, FRED BAUDER fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote:



 That said, it doesn't matter who writes the content on Wikipedia so long
 as it's relevant and factual.


 That's the point; it would not matter if women contributed so long as it's
 relevant and factual. Half the humans that could contribute are not.
 Actually many more than half, as there are barriers other than gender.

 Fred




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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision

2015-01-08 Thread Sebastian Moleski
Hi Matt,

as thorough as your characterization of the issue at hand is, as
misguided it is as well. The main point of the gender debate isn't the
physical differences between men and women and some purported
difference in authorship flowing from that. That would rightfully be
considered absurd and thus isn't really seriously promoted by anyone.

The gender gap debate is rather an acknowledgment that only a
surprisingly small subset of half the population contribute to
Wikipedia - and the systemic bias that stems from that. In fact, it
seems rather obvious that an encyclopedia that aspires to represent
all of human knowledge must necessarily be written by a representative
subset of humanity - or at least a representative subset of the
scientific community. We, so far, spectactularly fail at that with
respect to gender but also geography, language, and professional
backgrounds and expertise. As a result, it's more than sensible to try
to address that with the gender gap as the most prominent failure.

I also find your argument that focusing on increasing female
participation is devaluing the contribution of the prevalent majority
highly dubious. It's unfortunately a rather unoriginal argument as it
has been used many many times before in the political arean to combat
initiatives aimed at increasing diversity and decreasing
discrimination. The incessant fault of the argument is the premise
that the value of a particular contribution is dependent on the value
of all other contributions rather than viewing it in its own right. To
give an example: when someone writes an outstanding article on the
Great Wall of China and someone else writes an outstanding article on
Jacques Chirac, the value of each of these contributions is completely
separate from one another as well as from the fact whether one of the
authors was recruited through a drive to increase female
participation. They've both made excellent additions to Wikipedia and
should be lauded for that. Making moves to increase female
participation does not in any way devalue male participation.

While I have no knowledge whether this focused approach to
grant-making will indeed lead to increased female participation, I
find it sensible to at least try it out. We'll see in the end whether
it was succesful.

Best regards,

Sebastian Moleski
Schatzmeister / Treasurer
-
Wikimedia Deutschland e.V.
Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24
10963 Berlin

Telefon 030 - 219 158 26-0
www.wikimedia.de

Stellen Sie sich eine Welt vor, in der jeder Mensch an der Menge allen
Wissens frei teilhaben kann. Helfen Sie uns dabei!
http://spenden.wikimedia.de/

Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V.
Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter
der Nummer 23855 Nz. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für
Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision

2015-01-08 Thread Liam Wyatt
As this thread demonstrates, what discussions about the massive
gender imbalance in Wikimedia editorship need is more men discussing why it
might or might not be important.

/sarcasm


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision

2015-01-08 Thread Ilario Valdelli
I partially disagree with this vision.

Without the North American and European men there would not be any
opportunity to say: we would share the sum of the human knowledge.

Probably Wikimedia would not exist.

It is correct to say that Wikimedia must offer to *all people* any
opportunity without any difference of culture or gender or religion and
probably to promote some disadvantaged potential contributors, but
without forgetting that what Wikimedia is now is due to these neglected
white men.

I agree with your sentence: In my view our consensus-based decision-making
model can only work well when there is enough diversity of contributions
but we must be clear that the diversity of contribution and of opinions is
not automatically connected with the race or with the gender. The neutral
point of view has been assured until now, I would not read in your sentence
that this is wrong.

There may be men or women gathered in a key decision committee but having
the same not neutral point of view because the gender doesn't assure
automatically the neutrality of point of view.

The risk I see in the association of diversity with the gender or with the
race is that we can say that having people from different countries or
different races or different sex it can assure the neutral point of view.

But that is wrong.

Regards


On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 10:59 AM, Chris Keating chriskeatingw...@gmail.com
wrote:

 Hi there,


  That said, it doesn't matter who writes the content on Wikipedia so long
  as it's relevant and factual.


 
 Who is to decide what is relevant and factual (or indeed, the other
 editorial judgements we make in writing aricles)? If the only people doing
 that are white North American and European men with (or working towards)
 masters' degrees*, then their judgements will inevitably reflect their own
 backgrounds and perspectives - and other backgrounds and perspectives will
 be missing from those judgements.

 That does not and will not result in us fulfilling our mission to build and
 share the sum of human knowledge.

 In my view our consensus-based decision-making model can only work well
 when there is enough diversity of contributions in the first place. It is
 easy for a small group of similar people to reach a consensus. However,
 they are likely to miss important things in doing so.
 Regards,

 Chris

 * This isn't (quite) a description of the status quo but is pretty close
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision

2015-01-08 Thread Ilario Valdelli
Is there any barrier for women to participate?

The discussion is open.

It would be worth if someone attacks a woman for her opinion.

There is more a big barrier in the participation to this thread connected
with a strong level of English to be required to read and to answer to this
thread.

I see more a cultural and linguistic gap that a gender gap.

Regards

On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 11:29 AM, Liam Wyatt liamwy...@gmail.com wrote:

 As this thread demonstrates, what discussions about the massive
 gender imbalance in Wikimedia editorship need is more men discussing why it
 might or might not be important.

 /sarcasm


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision

2015-01-08 Thread Srikanth Ramakrishnan
I agree.
Women vs Men has never really stood out as a point of debate before and
ideally shouldn't.
On 08-Jan-2015 4:11 pm, Ilario Valdelli valde...@gmail.com wrote:

 Is there any barrier for women to participate?

 The discussion is open.

 It would be worth if someone attacks a woman for her opinion.

 There is more a big barrier in the participation to this thread connected
 with a strong level of English to be required to read and to answer to this
 thread.

 I see more a cultural and linguistic gap that a gender gap.

 Regards

 On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 11:29 AM, Liam Wyatt liamwy...@gmail.com wrote:

  As this thread demonstrates, what discussions about the massive
  gender imbalance in Wikimedia editorship need is more men discussing why
 it
  might or might not be important.
 
  /sarcasm
 
 
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision

2015-01-08 Thread Chris Keating
Hi there,


 That said, it doesn't matter who writes the content on Wikipedia so long
 as it's relevant and factual.



Who is to decide what is relevant and factual (or indeed, the other
editorial judgements we make in writing aricles)? If the only people doing
that are white North American and European men with (or working towards)
masters' degrees*, then their judgements will inevitably reflect their own
backgrounds and perspectives - and other backgrounds and perspectives will
be missing from those judgements.

That does not and will not result in us fulfilling our mission to build and
share the sum of human knowledge.

In my view our consensus-based decision-making model can only work well
when there is enough diversity of contributions in the first place. It is
easy for a small group of similar people to reach a consensus. However,
they are likely to miss important things in doing so.
Regards,

Chris

* This isn't (quite) a description of the status quo but is pretty close
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision

2015-01-08 Thread geni
On 8 January 2015 at 07:07, mcc99 mc...@hotmail.com wrote:

 If you ask any RN the names of the greatest contributors to the nursing
 profession, you'll get a stream of women's names.  To suggest that nursing
 needs more men or else it won't be able to achieve its greatest potential
 would be a crass and inaccurate insult to the many thousands of women who
 have made modern nursing what it is.  Of course there have been and will be
 male nurses who stand out as contributors, but only a very small
 percentage, probably in keeping with the ratio of men to women in nursing.
 And yet, despite the high salaries RNs command, are there any
 gov't-sponsored initiatives to get men into nursing?


In fact nurses get paid less than the male national average wage. This is
clearly some definition of high salaries I wasn't previously familiar with



 If so, it'd be news to me and many others.  But I ask, if men by and
 large, for whatever reasons, aren't interested in becoming nurses, why make
 a big deal about it?


Reducing the recruitment pool is less than ideal. However the number of men
training to be nurses has been increasing so it is probably felt the
problem will solve itself.


 Are there gov't-sponsored campaigns to get more women into the relatively
 lucrative job of refuse collection?


Ah you can tell the piece you are recycling from is dated. Post
privatisation refuse collection has ceased to be a particularly lucrative
job.


Or, the likewise lucrative jobs of plumber,


http://www.walesonline.co.uk/business/business-news/call-more-women-construction-3m-6942911

Although again due to eastern European labour plumbing isn't as lucrative
as it used to be.



 ordnance disposal engineer,



I understand there have been various attempts to recruit women into the
military



 nuclear materials technician, etc.?  No.  But other fields that are a lot
 less dirty and/or dangerous, yes.



Were you under the impression that nuclear materials technician was dirty
and/or dangerous? For very obvious reasons it isn't. However the nuclear
industry has been downsizing of late so I don't think there are significant
programs to recruit anyone.



  (Think professional STEM fields.)


I'm a chemist you insensitive clod. Depending on what you are doing it can
be dirty or dangerous.







-- 
geni
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision

2015-01-08 Thread Nathan
You certainly put a lot of time and effort into being wrong. Any first year
undergraduate writing course will tell you that to make an argument you
need to address the counter-arguments, which you have failed even to
mention. Diversity of contributors isn't a social justice goal, or even a
cultural engineering goal. It is aimed squarely at increasing the diversity
and caliber of content. Not only does the small proportion of women mean
that millions of them with huge amounts of expertise to contribute are
unheard, it also means that their perspective and approach are
underrepresented or missing entirely.

And yes, the same is true for others - not only African-Americans, but
Africans. Not only people of Indo-Asian descent, but the people of the
Indian subcontinent itself. This is not an American movement, yet the
global south is deeply under-represented, and the WMF has been working
for years to address this issue. This is, again, because diversity of
contributors matters for the breadth and depth of coverage in our projects.
The goal of the Wikimedia movement is the sum of all human knowledge, not
the sum of knowledge held by white men between 15 and 35 living in Europe
and North America.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision

2015-01-08 Thread Leigh Thelmadatter
I dont think the issue is the idea of encouraging projects that increase the 
participation of women, but rather the message that everything else is getting 
shoved aside.  

I dont see this as sexism and playing that card is counter-productive.  

What I suggest is that instead of saying that for three months everyone else is 
 sidelined, focus on inclusion.  If there arent enough or good enough projects 
for addressing the number of women participating in Wikipedia, perhaps we 
should look into why. Perhaps also look into the Foundation directly reaching 
out to women's groups for collaborative purposes.

But the OP does have a point. By telling certain groups we are not interested 
in you right now you are playing an us-against-them game and quite probably 
causing more harm than good.


Leigh


 Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2015 09:03:40 -0500
 From: nawr...@gmail.com
 To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
 Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap 
 project-related decision
 
 You certainly put a lot of time and effort into being wrong. Any first year
 undergraduate writing course will tell you that to make an argument you
 need to address the counter-arguments, which you have failed even to
 mention. Diversity of contributors isn't a social justice goal, or even a
 cultural engineering goal. It is aimed squarely at increasing the diversity
 and caliber of content. Not only does the small proportion of women mean
 that millions of them with huge amounts of expertise to contribute are
 unheard, it also means that their perspective and approach are
 underrepresented or missing entirely.
 
 And yes, the same is true for others - not only African-Americans, but
 Africans. Not only people of Indo-Asian descent, but the people of the
 Indian subcontinent itself. This is not an American movement, yet the
 global south is deeply under-represented, and the WMF has been working
 for years to address this issue. This is, again, because diversity of
 contributors matters for the breadth and depth of coverage in our projects.
 The goal of the Wikimedia movement is the sum of all human knowledge, not
 the sum of knowledge held by white men between 15 and 35 living in Europe
 and North America.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Honorary degree for Wikipedia + meeting

2015-01-08 Thread Federico Leva (Nemo)

Romaine Wiki, 08/01/2015 18:12:

Universiteit Maastricht (UM) reikt een eredoctoraat uit aan Frans

Timmermans en de oprichter van Wikipedia, Jimmy Wales.


Doctorate in what discipline?

Nemo

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Honorary degree for Wikipedia + meeting

2015-01-08 Thread Lodewijk
It is an honorary doctorate, not quite the same. As I understand it, it is
not connected to a discipline. See
http://www.maastrichtuniversity.nl/web/Main1/SiteWide/SiteWide11/MaastrichtUniversityAwardsHonoraryDoctoratesToFransTimmermansAndWikipediaFounderJimmyWales.htm
for a bit more details - he was nominated by the student members of the
University Council.

Best,
Lodewijk

2015-01-08 19:05 GMT+01:00 Federico Leva (Nemo) nemow...@gmail.com:

 Romaine Wiki, 08/01/2015 18:12:

 Universiteit Maastricht (UM) reikt een eredoctoraat uit aan Frans

 Timmermans en de oprichter van Wikipedia, Jimmy Wales.


 Doctorate in what discipline?

 Nemo


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] New project idea: WikiTribute

2015-01-08 Thread Nathan
Matt,

I think people politely declined to criticize your proposal in the
knowledge that it was absolutely sure to fail, meaning vocal opposition was
not required. But I can understand your frustration at the lack of
response, so I'll briefly provide you with mine. The WikiTribute idea
firstly fails to meld with educational purpose of the sum of all human
knowledge mission. Secondly, the system you describe for managing it is
utterly unworkable in a non-profit, volunteer driven wiki setting. Finally,
online repositories for obituaries already exist. These are by no means the
only weaknesses of the WikiTribute idea, but they would seem to be fatal.


On Tue, Dec 30, 2014 at 6:14 PM, mcc99 mc...@hotmail.com wrote:

 Hi all,

 Please take a minute to review a new project idea the page for which I
 created just today at:

 https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WikiTribute

 I am interested in feedback, suggestions, etc.

 Thank you!

 Matt
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap

2015-01-08 Thread mcc99
Hi Peter,

Much of my editing has been without logging into Wikipedia.  Typically I don't 
create new pages but I have a couple times.  For example, I started a page for 
a college that closed in 1981 after finding to my surprise that no one had done 
so despite it being a beloved place for its alums.  I did likewise for a 
deceased former state chief justice, as 2 examples.  But I didn't sign in to do 
so.  I've made numerous other edits to add info such as info about a person's 
recent demise, further contributions to a field, etc.

But in future, I think I'll sign in more often, esp. now that half the WikiGods 
have my uid on an alert trigger now. :)

Matt



 Original message 
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2015 14:12:39 +0200
From: Peter Southwood peter.southw...@telkomsa.net
To: 'Wikimedia Mailing List' wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month
gender gap  project-related decision
Message-ID: 005c01d02b3c$65e76500$31b62f00$@telkomsa.net
Content-Type: text/plain;   charset=utf-8

Hi Matt,
How much actual editing of Wikipedia have you done? I have looked for some 
indication in your rather lengthy message, but could not find any.  Perhaps I 
have simply missed it, but maybe you just didn’t mention, thinking that it is 
not relevant to the point.
Nevertheless, I would be interested to know, as it would be an indication of 
your exposure to the editing environment. For the same reason, I would like to 
know which Wikipedia(s) you have edited, they are not all the same.
Cheers,
Peter

-Original Message-
From: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org 
[mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of mcc99
Sent: 08 January 2015 09:07 AM
To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap 
project-related decision

Dear fellow Wikipedia devotees,

While I'm new to this list, I've been an avid fan and proponent of Wikipedia 
and all the great service it gives people people in

 
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision

2015-01-08 Thread Peter Southwood
Did someone suggest that men should reduce editing or participation? I missed 
that.
Cheers,
Peter

-Original Message-
From: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org 
[mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of FRED BAUDER
Sent: 08 January 2015 02:10 PM
To: Wikimedia Mailing List; Liam Wyatt
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap 
project-related decision

On Thu, 8 Jan 2015 11:29:57 +0100
  Liam Wyatt liamwy...@gmail.com wrote:
 As this thread demonstrates, what discussions about the massive  
gender imbalance in Wikimedia editorship need is more men discussing 
why it  might or might not be important.
 
 /sarcasm

Radical feminist notions that men should reduce editing or participation are 
counter-productive. The solution is OR not NOT; anyone should be able to edit 
without struggle.

Fred


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision

2015-01-08 Thread Nathan
On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 9:13 AM, Leigh Thelmadatter osama...@hotmail.com
wrote:

 I dont think the issue is the idea of encouraging projects that increase
 the participation of women, but rather the message that everything else is
 getting shoved aside.


I don't see how you can come to this conclusion. His entire e-mail is
explaining why no effort should be expended on the gender gap. It seems as
if the grant initiative is simply the proximate motive for explaining why
the gender gap is not a problem and working to address it is harmful and
insulting. I did not describe that position as sexist, and I couldn't
confidently assert that it is. It is, however, ignorant.

Perhaps the grants teams could have gone about this initiative in a better
way - that is usually the case when it comes to WMF communication and
organization. They could have set aside a specific dollar amount, or some
proportion of grants over a period of time. But three months is a short
period, and I find the sense of entitlement to WMF funds reflected in some
comments to be troubling.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision

2015-01-08 Thread Peter Southwood
How is it possible to give a realistic answer to that question?
Cheers,
Peter

-Original Message-
From: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org 
[mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Risker
Sent: 08 January 2015 02:42 PM
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap 
project-related decision

I have one simple question:  if the Grants program was to focus on some other  
key area rather than the gender gap, would we be having this discussion about 
how horrible it is to waste time this way?  Would we see throwing up of hands 
in this way if the focus was, say, requests from the Global South? A focus on 
getting great bots built and working across wikis?  A focus on events and 
processes for media collection? (Incidentally the latter more or less happens 
anyway with several groups applying for funding for WLM within a narrow 
period...)


Frankly, there's not a single thing I've read, or a single objection I've seen 
raised, that wasn't about how unnecessary it is to focus on women.  I don't 
think we've ever heard that about the global south, or non-European languages, 
or a lot of other areas where there are acknowledged biases.

Risker/Anne




On 8 January 2015 at 02:07, mcc99 mc...@hotmail.com wrote:

 Dear fellow Wikipedia devotees,

 While I'm new to this list, I've been an avid fan and proponent of 
 Wikipedia and all the great service it gives people since it launched.
 People can learn not just all the basics of nearly any topic 
 imaginable, but for a large number, readers can with diligence become 
 expert on more than a few and save themselves the cost of 
 tuition/training.  All this, in addition to satisfying their curiosity about 
 millions of subjects.

 That said, it doesn't matter who writes the content on Wikipedia so 
 long as it's relevant and factual.  Unlike the published, 
 single-authority edited encyclopediae of the past, Wikipedia allows 
 anyone with relevant information to contribute to it.  Their additions 
 or other edits are checked by volunteers to make sure the edit isn't a 
 defacement, irrelevant, patently unfactual, or unverifiable.  They are 
 typically left as written or maybe edited only for grammar/spelling.  
 Wikipedia is a rare success story in democracy of knowledge.  If one 
 feels moved to contribute, they do.  If not, they don't.  It's like 
 voting in a sense, though it's true people in democracies should 
 perhaps take the opportunity to do so more often.  But it's up to them.

 Like voting or anything else, to single out a particular group of 
 people based on their indelible characteristics as being desirable as 
 contributors to any field implicitly devalues the contributions not 
 just of those currently contributing who don't fall into that 
 category, but also says to any other group of a particular identity 
 that you care more about the group you're trying to get more involvement from 
 than them.  Identity politics
 is unfortunately a fact of our current political climate and I hope 
 one day we can, as MLK Jr. hoped, judge one another not by skin color 
 (and I'd add gender, sexuality, and a few others), but by content of 
 character.  In the context of Wikipedia, this would translate to the 
 veracity and applicability of contributions made to the vast Wikipedia 
 knowledge-base -- not who in particular is doing the contributing, nor 
 their indelible characteristics of person.

 Because identity politics is today part of general electoral politics 
 doesn't mean it need be for anything else, and especially given how 
 such things as a person's ethnicity, gender, sexuality, etc., say 
 nothing about what they know about or can do, I don't see how it's 
 relevant to the veracity and applicability of Wikipedia's knowledge 
 base.  I don't care that, for example, a black person (Charles Drew, 
 MD) came up with the process of creating blood plasma, an innovation 
 that has saved millions of lives.  He was tragically and mortally 
 injured in a car accident, however, and so his potential future 
 achievements were lost to humanity.  (He was not refused treatment for 
 his injuries at the hospital he was taken to because of his ethnicity, 
 as is widely but falsely believed; he was just so badly injured that 
 he died.  See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_R._Drew#Death ).  I 
 also don't care that Adm Grace Hopper (USN) wad female, only that she 
 wrote the first computer language compiler so programmers of lesser 
 brain power than her (such as myself) could go on to program computers 
 without struggling with binary switches and punch cards.  Her 
 contributions were what was important, not her gender, skin color, or 
 anything else as far as her professional achievements go.

 If you ask any RN the names of the greatest contributors to the 
 nursing profession, you'll get a stream of women's names.  To suggest 
 that nursing needs more men or else it 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision

2015-01-08 Thread Katherine Casey
+1 to Keilana. The fact that people still believe that valuing women
somehow devalues men never fails to amaze me. It's not a zero-sum game.

On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 11:35 AM, Keilana keilanaw...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hearing people whine “what about the men” because, God forbid, men might
 not get *every single* grant this time (as they did in the pilot round of
 IEGs), is incredibly tiresome.

 On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 10:30 AM, Peter Southwood 
 peter.southw...@telkomsa.net wrote:

  If you take it entirely at face value, I find it quite inoffensive.  As I
  have no experience with reviewing grant proposals, I can't comment on its
  accuracy, but I am quite happy to take Fred's word for it.
  Offence is often available if you search for it hard enough.
  Cheers,
  Peter
 
  -Original Message-
  From: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:
  wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Fæ
  Sent: 08 January 2015 06:17 PM
  To: Wikimedia Mailing List
  Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender
  gap project-related decision
 
  On 8 Jan 2015 16:11, FRED BAUDER fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote:
  ...
I've noticed that women are often quite motivated and good at writing
  grant proposals.
 
  Extending good faith I would presume this is irony. It does not transmit
  well by email. Please keep in mind how offensive this sort of thing
 appears.
 
  Fae
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision

2015-01-08 Thread Srikanth Ramakrishnan
Where is anyone whining about this?
Nobody here is.
The point being made is about why other grants are not being accepted.
On 08-Jan-2015 10:06 pm, Keilana keilanaw...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hearing people whine “what about the men” because, God forbid, men might
 not get *every single* grant this time (as they did in the pilot round of
 IEGs), is incredibly tiresome.

 On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 10:30 AM, Peter Southwood 
 peter.southw...@telkomsa.net wrote:

  If you take it entirely at face value, I find it quite inoffensive.  As I
  have no experience with reviewing grant proposals, I can't comment on its
  accuracy, but I am quite happy to take Fred's word for it.
  Offence is often available if you search for it hard enough.
  Cheers,
  Peter
 
  -Original Message-
  From: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:
  wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Fæ
  Sent: 08 January 2015 06:17 PM
  To: Wikimedia Mailing List
  Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender
  gap project-related decision
 
  On 8 Jan 2015 16:11, FRED BAUDER fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote:
  ...
I've noticed that women are often quite motivated and good at writing
  grant proposals.
 
  Extending good faith I would presume this is irony. It does not transmit
  well by email. Please keep in mind how offensive this sort of thing
 appears.
 
  Fae
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision

2015-01-08 Thread FRED BAUDER

I am optimistic that some great proposals might surface.

Fred

On Thu, 8 Jan 2015 18:30:08 +0200
 Peter Southwood peter.southw...@telkomsa.net wrote:
If you take it entirely at face value, I find it quite inoffensive. 
As I have no experience with reviewing grant proposals, I can't 
comment on its accuracy, but I am quite happy to take Fred's word for 
it.

Offence is often available if you search for it hard enough.
Cheers,
Peter

-Original Message-
From: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org 
[mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Fæ

Sent: 08 January 2015 06:17 PM
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month 
gender gap project-related decision


On 8 Jan 2015 16:11, FRED BAUDER fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote:
...
 I've noticed that women are often quite motivated and good at 
writing

grant proposals.

Extending good faith I would presume this is irony. It does not 
transmit well by email. Please keep in mind how offensive this sort 
of thing appears.


Fae
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Honorary degree for Wikipedia + meeting

2015-01-08 Thread Romaine Wiki
Hello all,

On Friday 16 January 2015 Wikipedia will receive in the person of Jimmy
Wales a honorary doctorate in Maastricht, the Netherlands.

He will receive this during the Dies Natalis of Maastricht University. The
ceremony starts at 15:00 in the St.Janskerk (Minderbroedersberg). Attendees
must be there at 14:45.
After the Dies Natalis there is a reception organized by Maastricht
University.

If anyone wishes to visit the Dies Natalis and needs more information,
contact me. You need to register your presence in a form on the website of
the university!

Jimmy has that day a busy schedule (including a lecture for students) and
is not able to have a wikimeet this day. Photos of the event will be
published on Commons.


On Thursday 15 January Jimmy is in Amsterdam for a symposium. After the
symposium we have organised a wikimeet in this building:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waag,_Amsterdam
(It is said to be the oldest remaining non-religious building in Amsterdam.)

The meeting starts at 20:00. You can sign up to be present in the section
Ja, ik kom! (= Yes, I come!) at
https://nl.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimeet_in_Amsterdam_met_Jimmy_Wales

If you need more information, you can contact me.

See you next week!

Romaine





2014-11-17 23:01 GMT+01:00 Romaine Wiki romaine.w...@gmail.com:

 Hi all,

 A local newspaper in the Netherlands had today as headline:
 Eredocteraat voor Timmermans en Wikipedia

 Translated: Honory degree for Timmermans and Wikipedia


 * Who is coming to Maastricht?
 * Can we organize a wikimeet that day in Maastricht?

 Romaine



 Rough translation of the newspaper:

 Maastricht University (UM) awarded an honorary doctorate to Frans
 Timmermans and the founder of Wikipedia, Jimmy Wales. They will be honored
 for the exceptional contributions they, directly or indirectly, have made
 to academic education and research.

 Commissioner Frans Timmermans is praised for his great contributions to both
 European and international relations. The American Jimmy Wales Wikipedia
 has established a platform accessible to everyone, which (in particular) for
 students not to imagine that it does not exist as infinite source of
 information. The honorary doctorates will be awarded during the official
 celebration of Dies Natalis, which takes place on 16 January 2015 at Sint
 Janskerk in Maastricht. Besides Timmermans and Wales, are also academics
 Michelle Craske (nominated by the Faculty of Psychology and Neuroscience) and
 Wolfgang Wahlster (nominated by the Faculty of Humanities and Sciences)
 awarded an honorary doctorate.




 Original in Dutch below:

 Eredocteraat voor Timmermans en Wikipedia

 De Universiteit Maastricht (UM) reikt een eredoctoraat uit aan Frans
 Timmermans en de oprichter van Wikipedia, Jimmy Wales. Zij worden gehuldigd
 voor de uitzonderlijke bijdragen die zij, direct of indirect, hebben
 geleverd aan academisch onderwijs en onderzoek.

 Eurocommissaris Frans Timmermans wordt geprezen om zijn grote bijdragen
 aan zowel Europese als internationale relaties. De Amerikaan Jimmy Wales
 heeft met Wikipedia een voor iedereen toegankelijk platform opgericht, dat
 (in het bijzonder) voor studenten niet meer weg te denken is als oneindige
 bron van informatie. De eredoctoraten worden uitgereikt tijdens de
 officiële viering van de Dies Natalis, die plaatsvindt op 16 januari 2015
 in de Sint Janskerk te Maastricht. Naast Timmermand en Wales worden tevens
 academici Michelle Craske (genomineerd door de Faculty of Psychology and
 Neuroscience) en Wolfgang Wahlster (genomineerd door de Faculty of
 Humanities and Sciences) onderscheiden met een eredoctoraat.






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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision

2015-01-08 Thread Jens Best
Sorry to interrupted, just a short question.

I'm looking for statistics of how many project ideas/requests were
submitted in the past. How many volunteers and WMF-employees were and are
involved in evaluating all these submissions and so on.

Can anybody provide me with a link or any other kind of reliable
informations on that?

best regards

Jens Best

2015-01-08 15:13 GMT+01:00 Leigh Thelmadatter osama...@hotmail.com:

 I dont think the issue is the idea of encouraging projects that increase
 the participation of women, but rather the message that everything else is
 getting shoved aside.

 I dont see this as sexism and playing that card is counter-productive.

 What I suggest is that instead of saying that for three months everyone
 else is  sidelined, focus on inclusion.  If there arent enough or good
 enough projects for addressing the number of women participating in
 Wikipedia, perhaps we should look into why. Perhaps also look into the
 Foundation directly reaching out to women's groups for collaborative
 purposes.

 But the OP does have a point. By telling certain groups we are not
 interested in you right now you are playing an us-against-them game and
 quite probably causing more harm than good.


 Leigh


  Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2015 09:03:40 -0500
  From: nawr...@gmail.com
  To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
  Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender
 gap project-related decision
 
  You certainly put a lot of time and effort into being wrong. Any first
 year
  undergraduate writing course will tell you that to make an argument you
  need to address the counter-arguments, which you have failed even to
  mention. Diversity of contributors isn't a social justice goal, or even a
  cultural engineering goal. It is aimed squarely at increasing the
 diversity
  and caliber of content. Not only does the small proportion of women mean
  that millions of them with huge amounts of expertise to contribute are
  unheard, it also means that their perspective and approach are
  underrepresented or missing entirely.
 
  And yes, the same is true for others - not only African-Americans, but
  Africans. Not only people of Indo-Asian descent, but the people of the
  Indian subcontinent itself. This is not an American movement, yet the
  global south is deeply under-represented, and the WMF has been working
  for years to address this issue. This is, again, because diversity of
  contributors matters for the breadth and depth of coverage in our
 projects.
  The goal of the Wikimedia movement is the sum of all human knowledge, not
  the sum of knowledge held by white men between 15 and 35 living in Europe
  and North America.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision

2015-01-08 Thread Keilana
Hearing people whine “what about the men” because, God forbid, men might
not get *every single* grant this time (as they did in the pilot round of
IEGs), is incredibly tiresome.

On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 10:30 AM, Peter Southwood 
peter.southw...@telkomsa.net wrote:

 If you take it entirely at face value, I find it quite inoffensive.  As I
 have no experience with reviewing grant proposals, I can't comment on its
 accuracy, but I am quite happy to take Fred's word for it.
 Offence is often available if you search for it hard enough.
 Cheers,
 Peter

 -Original Message-
 From: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:
 wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Fæ
 Sent: 08 January 2015 06:17 PM
 To: Wikimedia Mailing List
 Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender
 gap project-related decision

 On 8 Jan 2015 16:11, FRED BAUDER fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote:
 ...
   I've noticed that women are often quite motivated and good at writing
 grant proposals.

 Extending good faith I would presume this is irony. It does not transmit
 well by email. Please keep in mind how offensive this sort of thing appears.

 Fae
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision

2015-01-08 Thread Ilario Valdelli
I am in two grant committees, and I can assure that I comment the value of
the project and not the sex or the race of the candidate.

I think that a woman would appreciate more that a project is supported
because it's a good project than because it is a project submitted by a
woman.

Anyway the number of the projects focused to reduce the gender gap are not
so many, but there are no barriers for submission.

Personally I support to dedicate some months for a topic like the gender
gap not because the grants can be assigned to the women, but because the
expectation is to have a better communication and to widespread that the
women can apply for a grant and (last but not least) that some best
practices or examples can come up to be replicated in other linguistical
communities.

regards


On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 5:35 PM, Keilana keilanaw...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hearing people whine “what about the men” because, God forbid, men might
 not get *every single* grant this time (as they did in the pilot round of
 IEGs), is incredibly tiresome.

 On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 10:30 AM, Peter Southwood 
 peter.southw...@telkomsa.net wrote:

  If you take it entirely at face value, I find it quite inoffensive.  As I
  have no experience with reviewing grant proposals, I can't comment on its
  accuracy, but I am quite happy to take Fred's word for it.
  Offence is often available if you search for it hard enough.
  Cheers,
  Peter
 
  -Original Message-
  From: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:
  wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Fæ
  Sent: 08 January 2015 06:17 PM
  To: Wikimedia Mailing List
  Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender
  gap project-related decision
 
  On 8 Jan 2015 16:11, FRED BAUDER fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote:
  ...
I've noticed that women are often quite motivated and good at writing
  grant proposals.
 
  Extending good faith I would presume this is irony. It does not transmit
  well by email. Please keep in mind how offensive this sort of thing
 appears.
 
  Fae
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-- 
Ilario Valdelli
Wikimedia CH
Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre
Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera
Switzerland - 8008 Zürich
Wikipedia: Ilario https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Ilario
Skype: valdelli
Facebook: Ilario Valdelli https://www.facebook.com/ivaldelli
Twitter: Ilario Valdelli https://twitter.com/ilariovaldelli
Linkedin: Ilario Valdelli http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=6724469
Tel: +41764821371
http://www.wikimedia.ch
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Honorary degree for Wikipedia + meeting

2015-01-08 Thread Michael Jahn
Ah, just in time for ENWP's birthday on January 15.
Am 08.01.2015 18:13 schrieb Romaine Wiki romaine.w...@gmail.com:

 Hello all,

 On Friday 16 January 2015 Wikipedia will receive in the person of Jimmy
 Wales a honorary doctorate in Maastricht, the Netherlands.

 He will receive this during the Dies Natalis of Maastricht University. The
 ceremony starts at 15:00 in the St.Janskerk (Minderbroedersberg). Attendees
 must be there at 14:45.
 After the Dies Natalis there is a reception organized by Maastricht
 University.

 If anyone wishes to visit the Dies Natalis and needs more information,
 contact me. You need to register your presence in a form on the website of
 the university!

 Jimmy has that day a busy schedule (including a lecture for students) and
 is not able to have a wikimeet this day. Photos of the event will be
 published on Commons.


 On Thursday 15 January Jimmy is in Amsterdam for a symposium. After the
 symposium we have organised a wikimeet in this building:
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waag,_Amsterdam
 (It is said to be the oldest remaining non-religious building in
 Amsterdam.)

 The meeting starts at 20:00. You can sign up to be present in the section
 Ja, ik kom! (= Yes, I come!) at
 https://nl.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimeet_in_Amsterdam_met_Jimmy_Wales

 If you need more information, you can contact me.

 See you next week!

 Romaine





 2014-11-17 23:01 GMT+01:00 Romaine Wiki romaine.w...@gmail.com:

  Hi all,
 
  A local newspaper in the Netherlands had today as headline:
  Eredocteraat voor Timmermans en Wikipedia
 
  Translated: Honory degree for Timmermans and Wikipedia
 
 
  * Who is coming to Maastricht?
  * Can we organize a wikimeet that day in Maastricht?
 
  Romaine
 
 
 
  Rough translation of the newspaper:
 
  Maastricht University (UM) awarded an honorary doctorate to Frans
  Timmermans and the founder of Wikipedia, Jimmy Wales. They will be
 honored
  for the exceptional contributions they, directly or indirectly, have made
  to academic education and research.
 
  Commissioner Frans Timmermans is praised for his great contributions to
 both
  European and international relations. The American Jimmy Wales Wikipedia
  has established a platform accessible to everyone, which (in particular)
 for
  students not to imagine that it does not exist as infinite source of
  information. The honorary doctorates will be awarded during the official
  celebration of Dies Natalis, which takes place on 16 January 2015 at Sint
  Janskerk in Maastricht. Besides Timmermans and Wales, are also academics
  Michelle Craske (nominated by the Faculty of Psychology and
 Neuroscience) and
  Wolfgang Wahlster (nominated by the Faculty of Humanities and Sciences)
  awarded an honorary doctorate.
 
 
 
 
  Original in Dutch below:
 
  Eredocteraat voor Timmermans en Wikipedia
 
  De Universiteit Maastricht (UM) reikt een eredoctoraat uit aan Frans
  Timmermans en de oprichter van Wikipedia, Jimmy Wales. Zij worden
 gehuldigd
  voor de uitzonderlijke bijdragen die zij, direct of indirect, hebben
  geleverd aan academisch onderwijs en onderzoek.
 
  Eurocommissaris Frans Timmermans wordt geprezen om zijn grote bijdragen
  aan zowel Europese als internationale relaties. De Amerikaan Jimmy Wales
  heeft met Wikipedia een voor iedereen toegankelijk platform opgericht,
 dat
  (in het bijzonder) voor studenten niet meer weg te denken is als
 oneindige
  bron van informatie. De eredoctoraten worden uitgereikt tijdens de
  officiële viering van de Dies Natalis, die plaatsvindt op 16 januari 2015
  in de Sint Janskerk te Maastricht. Naast Timmermand en Wales worden
 tevens
  academici Michelle Craske (genomineerd door de Faculty of Psychology and
  Neuroscience) en Wolfgang Wahlster (genomineerd door de Faculty of
  Humanities and Sciences) onderscheiden met een eredoctoraat.
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap

2015-01-08 Thread Austin Hair
On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 4:30 PM, mcc99 mc...@hotmail.com wrote:
 But in future, I think I'll sign in more often, esp. now that half the 
 WikiGods have my uid on an alert trigger now. :)

I think the question is only being asked because you're displaying a
profound lack of understanding of how Wikipedia and Wikimedia work,
not only in your recent proposal, but in commenting on this sensitive
topic.

You're entitled to your opinion, of course, and you've been polite in
expressing it—that goes a long way, at least with me. So please don't
think that it's a matter of demanding a certain number of WikiCred
points before the WikiGods will let you sit at the WikiGrownups table,
or anything like that. Just understand that this issue has a lot of
people on edge, and at this rate it won't be long before politely
ignored becomes less ignored and less polite.

Austin

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision

2015-01-08 Thread FRED BAUDER
It's a rhetorical question, but, based on experience, I would probably 
chime in if a similar proposal was floated about native people such as 
African tribes or American Indians; most hardly ever edit, even in 
their own language, and throwing money at the problem is unlikely to 
be productive. It may be that a few clever effective proposals about 
gender participation might surface. I've noticed that women are often 
quite motivated and good at writing grant proposals.


Fred

On Thu, 8 Jan 2015 17:43:40 +0200
 Peter Southwood peter.southw...@telkomsa.net wrote:

How is it possible to give a realistic answer to that question?
Cheers,
Peter

-Original Message-
From: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org 
[mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Risker

Sent: 08 January 2015 02:42 PM
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month 
gender gap project-related decision


I have one simple question:  if the Grants program was to focus on 
some other  key area rather than the gender gap, would we be having 
this discussion about how horrible it is to waste time this way? 
Would we see throwing up of hands in this way if the focus was, say, 
requests from the Global South? A focus on getting great bots built 
and working across wikis?  A focus on events and processes for media 
collection? (Incidentally the latter more or less happens anyway with 
several groups applying for funding for WLM within a narrow 
period...)



Frankly, there's not a single thing I've read, or a single objection 
I've seen raised, that wasn't about how unnecessary it is to focus on 
women.  I don't think we've ever heard that about the global south, 
or non-European languages, or a lot of other areas where there are 
acknowledged biases.


Risker/Anne




On 8 January 2015 at 02:07, mcc99 mc...@hotmail.com wrote:


Dear fellow Wikipedia devotees,

While I'm new to this list, I've been an avid fan and proponent of 
Wikipedia and all the great service it gives people since it 
launched.
People can learn not just all the basics of nearly any topic 
imaginable, but for a large number, readers can with diligence 
become 
expert on more than a few and save themselves the cost of 
tuition/training.  All this, in addition to satisfying their 
curiosity about millions of subjects.


That said, it doesn't matter who writes the content on Wikipedia so 
long as it's relevant and factual.  Unlike the published, 
single-authority edited encyclopediae of the past, Wikipedia allows 
anyone with relevant information to contribute to it.  Their 
additions 
or other edits are checked by volunteers to make sure the edit isn't 
a 
defacement, irrelevant, patently unfactual, or unverifiable.  They 
are 
typically left as written or maybe edited only for grammar/spelling. 

Wikipedia is a rare success story in democracy of knowledge.  If one 
feels moved to contribute, they do.  If not, they don't.  It's like 
voting in a sense, though it's true people in democracies should 
perhaps take the opportunity to do so more often.  But it's up to 
them.


Like voting or anything else, to single out a particular group of 
people based on their indelible characteristics as being desirable 
as 
contributors to any field implicitly devalues the contributions not 
just of those currently contributing who don't fall into that 
category, but also says to any other group of a particular identity 
that you care more about the group you're trying to get more 
involvement from than them.  Identity politics
is unfortunately a fact of our current political climate and I hope 
one day we can, as MLK Jr. hoped, judge one another not by skin 
color 
(and I'd add gender, sexuality, and a few others), but by content of 
character.  In the context of Wikipedia, this would translate to the 
veracity and applicability of contributions made to the vast 
Wikipedia 
knowledge-base -- not who in particular is doing the contributing, 
nor 
their indelible characteristics of person.


Because identity politics is today part of general electoral 
politics 
doesn't mean it need be for anything else, and especially given how 
such things as a person's ethnicity, gender, sexuality, etc., say 
nothing about what they know about or can do, I don't see how it's 
relevant to the veracity and applicability of Wikipedia's knowledge 
base.  I don't care that, for example, a black person (Charles Drew, 
MD) came up with the process of creating blood plasma, an innovation 
that has saved millions of lives.  He was tragically and mortally 
injured in a car accident, however, and so his potential future 
achievements were lost to humanity.  (He was not refused treatment 
for 
his injuries at the hospital he was taken to because of his 
ethnicity, 
as is widely but falsely believed; he was just so badly injured that 
he died.  See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_R._Drew#Death ). 
I 
also don't care that Adm Grace Hopper (USN) 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision

2015-01-08 Thread
On 8 Jan 2015 16:11, FRED BAUDER fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote:
...
  I've noticed that women are often quite motivated and good at writing
grant proposals.

Extending good faith I would presume this is irony. It does not transmit
well by email. Please keep in mind how offensive this sort of thing appears.

Fae
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap

2015-01-08 Thread Peter Southwood
I was actually wondering if Matt had much experience of the often discussed 
toxic environment reported for some of the Wikipedias, and cited as a reason 
for low female participation. Perhaps I should have asked more directly.
Cheers,
Peter

-Original Message-
From: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org 
[mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Austin Hair
Sent: 08 January 2015 06:01 PM
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap

On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 4:30 PM, mcc99 mc...@hotmail.com wrote:
 But in future, I think I'll sign in more often, esp. now that half the 
 WikiGods have my uid on an alert trigger now. :)

I think the question is only being asked because you're displaying a profound 
lack of understanding of how Wikipedia and Wikimedia work, not only in your 
recent proposal, but in commenting on this sensitive topic.

You're entitled to your opinion, of course, and you've been polite in 
expressing it—that goes a long way, at least with me. So please don't think 
that it's a matter of demanding a certain number of WikiCred points before the 
WikiGods will let you sit at the WikiGrownups table, or anything like that. 
Just understand that this issue has a lot of people on edge, and at this rate 
it won't be long before politely ignored becomes less ignored and less polite.

Austin

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision

2015-01-08 Thread Peter Southwood
If you take it entirely at face value, I find it quite inoffensive.  As I have 
no experience with reviewing grant proposals, I can't comment on its accuracy, 
but I am quite happy to take Fred's word for it.
Offence is often available if you search for it hard enough.
Cheers,
Peter

-Original Message-
From: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org 
[mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Fæ
Sent: 08 January 2015 06:17 PM
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap 
project-related decision

On 8 Jan 2015 16:11, FRED BAUDER fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote:
...
  I've noticed that women are often quite motivated and good at writing
grant proposals.

Extending good faith I would presume this is irony. It does not transmit well 
by email. Please keep in mind how offensive this sort of thing appears.

Fae
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision

2015-01-08 Thread Isarra Yos
I'm just going to preface this by pointing out that I didn't actually 
read all of the OP due to a philosophical opposition to giant walls of 
text, but I think you've kind of missed the point in a few places.


Also please don't call people names. That's not nice.


On 08/01/15 10:52, geni wrote:

On 8 January 2015 at 07:07, mcc99 mc...@hotmail.com wrote:


If you ask any RN the names of the greatest contributors to the nursing
profession, you'll get a stream of women's names.  To suggest that nursing
needs more men or else it won't be able to achieve its greatest potential
would be a crass and inaccurate insult to the many thousands of women who
have made modern nursing what it is.  Of course there have been and will be
male nurses who stand out as contributors, but only a very small
percentage, probably in keeping with the ratio of men to women in nursing.
And yet, despite the high salaries RNs command, are there any
gov't-sponsored initiatives to get men into nursing?


In fact nurses get paid less than the male national average wage. This is
clearly some definition of high salaries I wasn't previously familiar with


Are male nurses paid more than female ones? Otherwise that's not really 
relevant.



If so, it'd be news to me and many others.  But I ask, if men by and
large, for whatever reasons, aren't interested in becoming nurses, why make
a big deal about it?


Reducing the recruitment pool is less than ideal. However the number of men
training to be nurses has been increasing so it is probably felt the
problem will solve itself.



Are there gov't-sponsored campaigns to get more women into the relatively
lucrative job of refuse collection?


Ah you can tell the piece you are recycling from is dated. Post
privatisation refuse collection has ceased to be a particularly lucrative
job.


I think that was supposed to be a joke. Gender disparities exist across 
the field in both low-paying and high-paying fields, but generally the 
focus is only to get more women into higher-paying ones, especially ones 
involving technology.


In a way it does seem to be a bit of a tangent here, where contributors 
aren't necessarily paid in the first place, but research into how we as 
a movement fit into the overall pattern of field-based gender 
disparities might show a solid connection. It'd certainly be 
interesting, if nothing else, especially if folks were to compare both 
regionally and globally.



  (Think professional STEM fields.)

I'm a chemist you insensitive clod. Depending on what you are doing it can
be dirty or dangerous.


I get that you disagree, but that's not helping anything.

-I

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] WMF is shutting down grantmaking for good projects for 3 months for no reason

2015-01-08 Thread Bjoern Hoehrmann
* Liam Wyatt wrote:
I understand from the explanations that the reason for not accepting
any non-gender-gap focused grants for several months is because of the
expected workload on the staff in reviewing applications and
supporting the projects that do get funded.

However, what I don't understand is what added incentive there is for
people to submit grant applications on the chosen topic (in this
instance it is gender-gap, but it could be other topics in the
future)? Since it is already possible to submit a gender-gap focused
grant, how does the refusal to accept other kinds of project
submissions increase the number/quality/variety of gender-gap grants?

One reason would be that anyone interested in applying for a gender-
gap focused grant will have to do it now, since odds of success will
be very low for such applications after the three months.
-- 
Björn Höhrmann · mailto:bjo...@hoehrmann.de · http://bjoern.hoehrmann.de
D-10243 Berlin · PGP Pub. KeyID: 0xA4357E78 · http://www.bjoernsworld.de
 Available for hire in Berlin (early 2015)  · http://www.websitedev.de/ 

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision

2015-01-08 Thread Peter Southwood
If this was intended as a response to my post I'm afraid I don’t get the 
relevance.
I was also not aware that the grants were awarded to men. I thought they were 
awarded to projects on merit.
Cheers,
Peter

-Original Message-
From: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org 
[mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Keilana
Sent: 08 January 2015 06:36 PM
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap 
project-related decision

Hearing people whine “what about the men” because, God forbid, men might not 
get *every single* grant this time (as they did in the pilot round of IEGs), is 
incredibly tiresome.

On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 10:30 AM, Peter Southwood  
peter.southw...@telkomsa.net wrote:

 If you take it entirely at face value, I find it quite inoffensive.  
 As I have no experience with reviewing grant proposals, I can't 
 comment on its accuracy, but I am quite happy to take Fred's word for it.
 Offence is often available if you search for it hard enough.
 Cheers,
 Peter

 -Original Message-
 From: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:
 wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Fæ
 Sent: 08 January 2015 06:17 PM
 To: Wikimedia Mailing List
 Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month 
 gender gap project-related decision

 On 8 Jan 2015 16:11, FRED BAUDER fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote:
 ...
   I've noticed that women are often quite motivated and good at 
  writing
 grant proposals.

 Extending good faith I would presume this is irony. It does not 
 transmit well by email. Please keep in mind how offensive this sort of thing 
 appears.

 Fae
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] WaPo Wikipedia's 'complicated; relationship with net neutrality

2015-01-08 Thread Bjoern Hoehrmann
* Kim Bruning wrote:
Found another article calling out Wikipedia. Are there also
articles praising us? :-)


   https://medium.com/backchannel/less-than-zero-199bcb05a868

Quoting, 

  Facebook, Twitter, WhatsApp and Wikipedia become “the Internet” for
  the users of mobile data supported by “zero rating” plans, because
  accessing these services doesn’t cause users to hit the data caps
  applied by the carriers, and in many cases the plans don’t require
  the user to sign up for mobile data at all.

http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Wikipedia_Zero_Operating_Principles

  Wikipedia Zero cannot be sold as part of a bundle. Access to the
  Wikimedia sites through Wikipedia Zero cannot be sold through limited
  service bundles.

It seems pretty clear to me that users of Wikipedia Zero must pay a
non-trivial amount for mobile data above and beyond normal telephony
services, even if they only access zero-rated services, otherwise it
is a limited service bundle which we are lead to believe is forbidden.

(It is also possible the intent of the requirement above is that it is
entirely okay to sell Wikipedia Zero through limited service bundles
so long as an operator does not offer even more limited services; in
that case the phrasing is grossly misleading.)

I assume the Foundation closely monitors offerings of operators it has
made an agreement with to ensure access to Wikipedia Zero is never sold
as part of a limited service bundle. Could the relevant records please
be released?
-- 
Björn Höhrmann · mailto:bjo...@hoehrmann.de · http://bjoern.hoehrmann.de
D-10243 Berlin · PGP Pub. KeyID: 0xA4357E78 · http://www.bjoernsworld.de
 Available for hire in Berlin (early 2015)  · http://www.websitedev.de/ 

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision

2015-01-08 Thread Austin Hair
On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 1:41 PM, Risker risker...@gmail.com wrote:
 Frankly, there's not a single thing I've read, or a single objection I've
 seen raised, that wasn't about how unnecessary it is to focus on women.  I
 don't think we've ever heard that about the global south, or non-European
 languages, or a lot of other areas where there are acknowledged biases.

Maybe you're only talking about this specific fork of the thread, but
I was happy to see that the previous discussion managed to stay
on-topic and largely avoid the specific social issue. I saw a lot of
people with specific criticism of the decision, completely separate
from the cause. (I appreciate that Leigh was still clinging to that
idea while the thread was being dragged into the abyss, only to be
insulted in the process.)

Having addressed that, I want to say to everybody that Wikimedia-l is
a lot of things, not all good, but the previous conversation was at
least on-topic. Does anyone seriously think that this one is? Please,
please don't make me start content filtering based on words like
feminazi or misogynist.

Austin

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Honorary degree for Wikipedia + meeting

2015-01-08 Thread Gregory Varnum
Dr. Wikipedia only specializes in treating CN.

-greg

___
Sent from my iPhone - a more detailed response may be sent later.

 On Jan 8, 2015, at 3:09 PM, Austin Hair adh...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 7:09 PM, Lodewijk lodew...@effeietsanders.org wrote:
 It is an honorary doctorate, not quite the same. As I understand it, it is
 not connected to a discipline.
 
 So, wait... you're saying that Wikipedia is not a real doctor, and I
 *shouldn't* be relying on it for medical advice?
 
 Austin
 
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Honorary degree for Wikipedia + meeting

2015-01-08 Thread Austin Hair
On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 7:09 PM, Lodewijk lodew...@effeietsanders.org wrote:
 It is an honorary doctorate, not quite the same. As I understand it, it is
 not connected to a discipline.

So, wait... you're saying that Wikipedia is not a real doctor, and I
*shouldn't* be relying on it for medical advice?

Austin

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision

2015-01-08 Thread Isarra Yos

On 08/01/15 20:04, Austin Hair wrote:

On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 1:41 PM, Risker risker...@gmail.com wrote:

Frankly, there's not a single thing I've read, or a single objection I've
seen raised, that wasn't about how unnecessary it is to focus on women.  I
don't think we've ever heard that about the global south, or non-European
languages, or a lot of other areas where there are acknowledged biases.

Maybe you're only talking about this specific fork of the thread, but
I was happy to see that the previous discussion managed to stay
on-topic and largely avoid the specific social issue. I saw a lot of
people with specific criticism of the decision, completely separate
from the cause. (I appreciate that Leigh was still clinging to that
idea while the thread was being dragged into the abyss, only to be
insulted in the process.)

Having addressed that, I want to say to everybody that Wikimedia-l is
a lot of things, not all good, but the previous conversation was at
least on-topic. Does anyone seriously think that this one is? Please,
please don't make me start content filtering based on words like
feminazi or misogynist.

Austin


As far as I can tell, this is the first time either of those words have 
shown up in the discussion. It's true that the bulk of this thread is 
only about the particular topic chosen for the 3-month focus, whereas 
the previous thread was about the nature of having 3-month focuses in 
the first place and particularly the chosen implementation, but so long 
as people remain civil, why can both not be valid topics of discussion?


It doesn't even matter what the topic is, really. It ought to be worth 
discussing if only to clarify what it means to different folks, but even 
and in doing so, how better to generate possible ideas for projects?


-I

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