Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[Peter Southwood]

One of the basic tenets of health and safety, is that if you have a near miss 
incident, it should be analysed the same way that a fatal incident would be 
investigated. Not to apportion blame, even if it is due, but so that the same 
situation can be avoided in the future. Organisations that fail to do this are 
doomed to repeat their mistakes, not necessarily by the same people, who may 
well have learned, but often by other departments, where the people did not get 
the opportunity to learn by the mistake. Refusal to answer reasonable and 
legitimate questions by stakeholders often leads to accusations of conspiracy 
and bad faith and can end in the local demagogues, of which we have an adequate 
supply, inciting the torch and pitchfork brigade. Things may go downhill at 
this point.
Cheers,
Peter

-Original Message-
From: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org 
[mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Pine W
Sent: Friday, 04 September 2015 8:43 AM
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy 
largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Yes, I think it is the case that Fundraising and other organizations (like the 
WLM coordinators, Wikimedia Italia, and Community Resources / FDC) were working 
from different playbooks. But now that Fundraising has agreed to change their 
plans, I think we should give them some breathing room, especially because they 
say that banner scheduling will be coordinated next year.



Pine


On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 11:24 PM, Peter Southwood < 
peter.southw...@telkomsa.net> wrote:

> Who set the targets that will now not be met, how were they decided, 
> and when were they set? I must assume that WLM annual project was not 
> taken into consideration by these planners.
> Cheers,
> P
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:
> wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Pine W
> Sent: Thursday, 03 September 2015 10:51 PM
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments 
> in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
>
> I just want to respond to this point in particular:
>
> "Postponing the Italian fundraising campaign means for the first time 
> in at least 4 years, the fundraising team will not be meeting a 
> target. The team will pick up extra work in October to make up for 
> work missed in September.
> It's not possible to do two months of work in one month, so there will 
> need to be adjustments later throughout the year to make up for 
> missing the September target."
>
> It was somewhat courageous for WMF Fundraising to change its schedule 
> and forecast missing a target as a result. Two quotes seem appropriate 
> in the context of this conversation, particularly regarding WMF's 
> taking the community's priorities into account and absorbing the risks 
> to its plans that come with changing to accommodate WLM:
>
> "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what 
> it takes to sit down and listen." -- Winston Churchill.
>
> "Either you decide to stay in the shallow end of the pool or you go 
> out in the ocean." --Christopher Reeve
>
> Thanks Megan and all.
>
> Pine
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 12:29 PM, Mathias Damour < 
> mathias.dam...@laposte.net
> > wrote:
>
> > Le 31/08/2015 13:02, Megan Hernandez a écrit :
> >
> >> Postponing the Italian fundraising campaign means for the first 
> >> time in at least 4 years, the fundraising team will not be meeting 
> >> a target. The team will pick up extra work in October to make up 
> >> for work missed in September.
> >> It's not possible to do two months of work in one month, so there 
> >> will need to be adjustments later throughout the year to make up 
> >> for missing the September target.
> >>
> >
> > The WMF team is without any doubt very professional in "meeting its 
> > target" and in smooth communication.
> >
> > We should also understand that despite the huge growth of the WMF 
> > these last few years, it may feel an inferiority complex and think 
> > it has a backlog to catch up compared to some much richer 
> > neighbouring companies in the San Francisco Bay ! I guess they 
> > roughly think: "Why should we have 15 time less employees than 
> > Twitter !" That's why raising up the fundraising targets can be more 
> > important than to facilitate a WLM event in just one not-so-big 
> > country ! :-P
> >
> > Nevertheless it still give the impression of taking the word-wide 
> > donors, the volunteers and the other entities (chapters) for 
> > pawns/chess pieces that you may move or stop whenever you want or need...
> > Maybe the ones to blame are the neighbouring internet companies for 
> > setting a bad example to the WMF... :-\
> >
> > --
> > Mathias Damour
> > [[User:Astirmays]]
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[Pine W]

I guess I'm not clear on whether you're asking about the Fundraising
targets or the WLM/WMIT targets, or both. Can you clarify?

My understanding from this email chain is that there will be a
deconfliction of banner space via better scheduling next year. I think that
someone suggested setting up a calendar to track banner use, which might
also be helpful.

I think I'll step out of this conversation for the moment, and let the
stakeholders take it from here.

Pine


On Fri, Sep 4, 2015 at 4:25 AM, Peter Southwood <
peter.southw...@telkomsa.net> wrote:

> One of the basic tenets of health and safety, is that if you have a near
> miss incident, it should be analysed the same way that a fatal incident
> would be investigated. Not to apportion blame, even if it is due, but so
> that the same situation can be avoided in the future. Organisations that
> fail to do this are doomed to repeat their mistakes, not necessarily by the
> same people, who may well have learned, but often by other departments,
> where the people did not get the opportunity to learn by the mistake.
> Refusal to answer reasonable and legitimate questions by stakeholders often
> leads to accusations of conspiracy and bad faith and can end in the local
> demagogues, of which we have an adequate supply, inciting the torch and
> pitchfork brigade. Things may go downhill at this point.
> Cheers,
> Peter
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:
> wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Pine W
> Sent: Friday, 04 September 2015 8:43 AM
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in
> Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
>
> Yes, I think it is the case that Fundraising and other organizations (like
> the WLM coordinators, Wikimedia Italia, and Community Resources / FDC) were
> working from different playbooks. But now that Fundraising has agreed to
> change their plans, I think we should give them some breathing room,
> especially because they say that banner scheduling will be coordinated next
> year.
>
>
>
> Pine
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 11:24 PM, Peter Southwood <
> peter.southw...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>
> > Who set the targets that will now not be met, how were they decided,
> > and when were they set? I must assume that WLM annual project was not
> > taken into consideration by these planners.
> > Cheers,
> > P
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:
> > wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Pine W
> > Sent: Thursday, 03 September 2015 10:51 PM
> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments
> > in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
> >
> > I just want to respond to this point in particular:
> >
> > "Postponing the Italian fundraising campaign means for the first time
> > in at least 4 years, the fundraising team will not be meeting a
> > target. The team will pick up extra work in October to make up for
> > work missed in September.
> > It's not possible to do two months of work in one month, so there will
> > need to be adjustments later throughout the year to make up for
> > missing the September target."
> >
> > It was somewhat courageous for WMF Fundraising to change its schedule
> > and forecast missing a target as a result. Two quotes seem appropriate
> > in the context of this conversation, particularly regarding WMF's
> > taking the community's priorities into account and absorbing the risks
> > to its plans that come with changing to accommodate WLM:
> >
> > "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what
> > it takes to sit down and listen." -- Winston Churchill.
> >
> > "Either you decide to stay in the shallow end of the pool or you go
> > out in the ocean." --Christopher Reeve
> >
> > Thanks Megan and all.
> >
> > Pine
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 12:29 PM, Mathias Damour <
> > mathias.dam...@laposte.net
> > > wrote:
> >
> > > Le 31/08/2015 13:02, Megan Hernandez a écrit :
> > >
> > >> Postponing the Italian fundraising campaign means for the first
> > >> time in at least 4 years, the fundraising team will not be meeting
> > >> a target. The team will pick up extra work in October to make up
> > >> for work missed in September.
> > >> It's not possible to do two months of work in one month, so there
> > >> will need to be adjustments later throughout the year to make up
> > >> for missing the September target.
> > >>
> > >
> > > The WMF team is without any doubt very professional in "meeting its
> > > target" and in smooth communication.
> > >
> > > We should also understand that despite the huge growth of the WMF
> > > these last few years, it may feel an inferiority complex and think
> > > it has a backlog to catch up compared to some much richer
> > > neighbouring companies in the San Francisco Bay ! I guess they
> > > roughly think: "Why 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[Peter Southwood]

I was referring to the fundraising targets, which have been cited as a cause of 
the dispute. WMIT/WLM have explained at length their reasons for needing 
banners in September. I am in no position to comment on whether their analysis 
is correct or not . Fundraising has not been so forthcoming in response to 
queries.
Cheers,
Peter

-Original Message-
From: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org 
[mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Pine W
Sent: Friday, 04 September 2015 1:45 PM
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy 
largely blocked by WMF fundraising

I guess I'm not clear on whether you're asking about the Fundraising targets or 
the WLM/WMIT targets, or both. Can you clarify?

My understanding from this email chain is that there will be a deconfliction of 
banner space via better scheduling next year. I think that someone suggested 
setting up a calendar to track banner use, which might also be helpful.

I think I'll step out of this conversation for the moment, and let the 
stakeholders take it from here.

Pine


On Fri, Sep 4, 2015 at 4:25 AM, Peter Southwood < peter.southw...@telkomsa.net> 
wrote:

> One of the basic tenets of health and safety, is that if you have a 
> near miss incident, it should be analysed the same way that a fatal 
> incident would be investigated. Not to apportion blame, even if it is 
> due, but so that the same situation can be avoided in the future. 
> Organisations that fail to do this are doomed to repeat their 
> mistakes, not necessarily by the same people, who may well have 
> learned, but often by other departments, where the people did not get the 
> opportunity to learn by the mistake.
> Refusal to answer reasonable and legitimate questions by stakeholders 
> often leads to accusations of conspiracy and bad faith and can end in 
> the local demagogues, of which we have an adequate supply, inciting 
> the torch and pitchfork brigade. Things may go downhill at this point.
> Cheers,
> Peter
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:
> wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Pine W
> Sent: Friday, 04 September 2015 8:43 AM
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments 
> in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
>
> Yes, I think it is the case that Fundraising and other organizations 
> (like the WLM coordinators, Wikimedia Italia, and Community Resources 
> / FDC) were working from different playbooks. But now that Fundraising 
> has agreed to change their plans, I think we should give them some 
> breathing room, especially because they say that banner scheduling 
> will be coordinated next year.
>
>
>
> Pine
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 11:24 PM, Peter Southwood < 
> peter.southw...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>
> > Who set the targets that will now not be met, how were they decided, 
> > and when were they set? I must assume that WLM annual project was 
> > not taken into consideration by these planners.
> > Cheers,
> > P
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:
> > wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Pine W
> > Sent: Thursday, 03 September 2015 10:51 PM
> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves 
> > Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
> >
> > I just want to respond to this point in particular:
> >
> > "Postponing the Italian fundraising campaign means for the first 
> > time in at least 4 years, the fundraising team will not be meeting a 
> > target. The team will pick up extra work in October to make up for 
> > work missed in September.
> > It's not possible to do two months of work in one month, so there 
> > will need to be adjustments later throughout the year to make up for 
> > missing the September target."
> >
> > It was somewhat courageous for WMF Fundraising to change its 
> > schedule and forecast missing a target as a result. Two quotes seem 
> > appropriate in the context of this conversation, particularly 
> > regarding WMF's taking the community's priorities into account and 
> > absorbing the risks to its plans that come with changing to accommodate WLM:
> >
> > "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also 
> > what it takes to sit down and listen." -- Winston Churchill.
> >
> > "Either you decide to stay in the shallow end of the pool or you go 
> > out in the ocean." --Christopher Reeve
> >
> > Thanks Megan and all.
> >
> > Pine
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 12:29 PM, Mathias Damour < 
> > mathias.dam...@laposte.net
> > > wrote:
> >
> > > Le 31/08/2015 13:02, Megan Hernandez a écrit :
> > >
> > >> Postponing the Italian fundraising campaign means for the first 
> > >> time in at least 4 years, the fundraising team will not be 
> > >> meeting a target. The team will pick 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Reimagining Wikimedia Foundation Grants

[Siko Bouterse]

Hi again,
Thanks to the 100+ people who have shared feedback via the survey and talk
page discussion so far!

Reminder: The consultation period closes on 8 September 0:00 UTC.

This is the last weekend to add your thoughts to the conversation before we
begin to analyze all feedback and plan next steps. Looking forward to
incorporating your ideas, so please do come share them if you haven't had a
chance to do so yet!

Warm regards,
Siko

On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 6:14 PM, Siko Bouterse 
wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> The Wikimedia Foundation would like your feedback about how we can
> reimagine grants to better support people and ideas in the Wikimedia
> movement.
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IdeaLab/Reimagining_WMF_grants
>
> We’ve been discussing the idea with the grants committees and are now
> running a survey and collecting feedback on Meta-wiki. Office hours will
> also be held in Hangouts and IRC starting at the end of August.
>
> Please share your feedback on the idea here, and help make it better:
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:IdeaLab/Reimagining_WMF_grants
>
> You can learn more about this consultation, including dates for office
> hours, here:
>
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IdeaLab/Reimagining_WMF_grants/Consultation
>
> Feedback is welcome in any language.
>
> Warm regards,
> Siko and the Community Resources team
>
> --
> Siko Bouterse
> Director of Community Resources
> Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.
>
> sboute...@wikimedia.org
>
> *Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the
> sum of all knowledge. *
> *Donate  or click the "edit" button today,
> and help us make it a reality!*
>



-- 
Siko Bouterse
Director of Community Resources
Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.

sboute...@wikimedia.org

*Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the
sum of all knowledge. *
*Donate  or click the "edit" button today,
and help us make it a reality!*
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Collaboration team reprioritization

[Pine W]

Thanks for that perspective Amir. I hadn't even thought of the mobile
aspect. It would be great to have improved collaboration tools for working
on mobile.

Pine


On Fri, Sep 4, 2015 at 1:51 PM, Amir E. Aharoni <
amir.ahar...@mail.huji.ac.il> wrote:

> 2015-09-02 3:15 GMT+03:00 MZMcBride :
> > What I'm struggling with here is that Flow seems to have failed to
> > deliver. It hasn't met its goals of covering even basic talk pages and it
> > sounds as though further development work on Flow will now be suspended.
> >
> > From my perspective, after over two years of development, we've basically
> > accomplished creating pages such as "Topic:P0q3m7vwysdezd2m" (I wish I
> > were kidding, that's an actual page title) on development wikis such as
> > mediawiki.org. This is a pretty bleak outcome, in my opinion.
>
> This is an exaggeration.
>
> The "Topic:P0q3m7vwysdezd2m" URL is not pretty, but this is remarkably
> unimportant: I've been using several personal and project-level Flow pages
> productively in three languages every day for the last few months. I never
> had any reason to think that these GUID URLs are a problem. Contrariwise,
> it's far more convenient to post them instead of an unstable URL with an
> anchor.
>
> Much more importantly, Flow very much does cover basic talk pages. You can
> write a title and an OP and get people to reply. This has been working for
> many months already. This is my definition of "covering basic talk pages".
>
> Even more importantly is that you can write a title and an OP and get
> people to reply ON THEIR PHONES. This is nearly impossible on the classic
> talk pages; on them you are lucky to even manage to read the existing
> discussions, and typing a reply requires extra finger-acrobatics. With Flow
> it's as easy as on Twitter. I do almost no coding for Mobile Frontend and
> apps, but I'm a kind of a volunteer mobile technologies ambassador in my
> home wiki, and good mobile support for talk pages is the #1 request that I
> hear from veteran editors with regards to using Wikipedia on their phones.
> This is another thing that Flow has been doing for many months already.
>
> As for new users, well, if I had a sheqel for every time that I had to
> explain about ::: and -- to new Wikipeia editors, I could buy a very
> good dinner to all the participants of this thread. With Flow I just don't
> need to do it - they click Reply and just reply.
>
> I received a lot of positive feedback about Flow from my home wiki editors,
> both veteran and newbies.
>
> There are nearly 900 Phab tasks for Flow, but the *only* thing that I
> really miss is a basic easy way to go back to old posts - be it
> auto-archiving with a calendar, search, filtering, or anything other way to
> access them, and even that has not been a blocker for productive daily use
> of several Flow boards. (Just as a reminder, going to old posts in classic
> talk pages is different on every page, according to their authors archiving
> style, so it's not much of a regression.)
>
> I wish that more discussion pages on which I wrote would use Flow, and I
> very much hope that Flow's talk page component would be more than just
> "maintained and supported".
>
> Thanks, collaboration team; I expect to see more of your skills and
> innovations soon.
>
> --
> Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
> http://aharoni.wordpress.com
> ‪“We're living in pieces,
> I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Collaboration team reprioritization

[Amir E. Aharoni]

2015-09-02 3:15 GMT+03:00 MZMcBride :
> What I'm struggling with here is that Flow seems to have failed to
> deliver. It hasn't met its goals of covering even basic talk pages and it
> sounds as though further development work on Flow will now be suspended.
>
> From my perspective, after over two years of development, we've basically
> accomplished creating pages such as "Topic:P0q3m7vwysdezd2m" (I wish I
> were kidding, that's an actual page title) on development wikis such as
> mediawiki.org. This is a pretty bleak outcome, in my opinion.

This is an exaggeration.

The "Topic:P0q3m7vwysdezd2m" URL is not pretty, but this is remarkably
unimportant: I've been using several personal and project-level Flow pages
productively in three languages every day for the last few months. I never
had any reason to think that these GUID URLs are a problem. Contrariwise,
it's far more convenient to post them instead of an unstable URL with an
anchor.

Much more importantly, Flow very much does cover basic talk pages. You can
write a title and an OP and get people to reply. This has been working for
many months already. This is my definition of "covering basic talk pages".

Even more importantly is that you can write a title and an OP and get
people to reply ON THEIR PHONES. This is nearly impossible on the classic
talk pages; on them you are lucky to even manage to read the existing
discussions, and typing a reply requires extra finger-acrobatics. With Flow
it's as easy as on Twitter. I do almost no coding for Mobile Frontend and
apps, but I'm a kind of a volunteer mobile technologies ambassador in my
home wiki, and good mobile support for talk pages is the #1 request that I
hear from veteran editors with regards to using Wikipedia on their phones.
This is another thing that Flow has been doing for many months already.

As for new users, well, if I had a sheqel for every time that I had to
explain about ::: and -- to new Wikipeia editors, I could buy a very
good dinner to all the participants of this thread. With Flow I just don't
need to do it - they click Reply and just reply.

I received a lot of positive feedback about Flow from my home wiki editors,
both veteran and newbies.

There are nearly 900 Phab tasks for Flow, but the *only* thing that I
really miss is a basic easy way to go back to old posts - be it
auto-archiving with a calendar, search, filtering, or anything other way to
access them, and even that has not been a blocker for productive daily use
of several Flow boards. (Just as a reminder, going to old posts in classic
talk pages is different on every page, according to their authors archiving
style, so it's not much of a regression.)

I wish that more discussion pages on which I wrote would use Flow, and I
very much hope that Flow's talk page component would be more than just
"maintained and supported".

Thanks, collaboration team; I expect to see more of your skills and
innovations soon.

--
Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
http://aharoni.wordpress.com
‪“We're living in pieces,
I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Collaboration team reprioritization

[John Mark Vandenberg]

On Sat, Sep 5, 2015 at 12:37 PM, MZMcBride  wrote:
> Amir E. Aharoni wrote:
>>Much more importantly, Flow very much does cover basic talk pages. You can
>>write a title and an OP and get people to reply. This has been working for
>>many months already. This is my definition of "covering basic talk pages".
>>
>>Even more importantly is that you can write a title and an OP and get
>>people to reply ON THEIR PHONES. This is nearly impossible on the classic
>>talk pages; on them you are lucky to even manage to read the existing
>>discussions, and typing a reply requires extra finger-acrobatics. With
>>Flow it's as easy as on Twitter. I do almost no coding for Mobile
>>Frontend and apps, but I'm a kind of a volunteer mobile technologies
>>ambassador in my home wiki, and good mobile support for talk pages is the
>>#1 request that I hear from veteran editors with regards to using
>>Wikipedia on their phones. This is another thing that Flow has been doing
>>for many months already.
>
> I think most of the points you raise here are true of LiquidThreads or
> _any_ prototype of a discussion system. Yes, you get a reply button
> instead of needing ":: " wikitext. That's great, I agree, but after
> having watched LiquidThreads rot and then seeing a lot of time, money, and
> effort put into Flow, I'm pretty dissatisfied with the deliverable being
> essentially a very intricate proof-of-concept. I think not getting Flow
> fully deployed to Wikimedia wikis is objectively a large failure to
> deliver. Consequently, it seems most prudent to be asking what went wrong
> and how it will be better next time. The underlying reality is that we
> still need a better on-wiki discussion system and it now looks like
> neither LiquidThreads nor Flow are going to be it.

In addition to this, we still have LiquidThreads (LQT) in production.

I can understand Flow being put into maintenance mode, especially if
temporarily while energy is focused elsewhere, but I believe the main
Flow project should at least include:

1. dumping Flow content into the public dumps (
https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T89398 ), and

2. decommissioning LiquidThreads on all Wikimedia sites by converting
them to Flow

According to Wikiapiary [1] , there are still seven 'active' WMF sites
using LiquidThreads.

I see LQT is still actively being used on five of them:

https://en.wikinews.org/w/index.php?title=Special:RecentChanges=30==90

https://en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=Special:RecentChanges=30==90

https://pt.wikibooks.org/w/index.php?title=Especial:Mudan%C3%A7as_recentes=30==90

https://fi.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Toiminnot:Tuoreet_muutokset=30==90
(conversion to Flow requested: T104089)

https://se.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Senaste_%C3%A4ndringar=30==90
(conversion to Flow requested: T106302)

But no Thread: activity on two others:
http://hu.wikipedia.org/
(They are trialling Flow? T107301)
http://sv.wikisource.org/

It is also installed on two locked projects: Wikimania 2010, and
Wikimedia Strategic Planning.  Can't they be converted to Flow ?

And it is still installed on https://www.mediawiki.org/ .  Is that
still necessary?

Is the current plan simply "let users request LiquidThreads pages be
converted to Flow"?

Which of the above sites are only using it in user talk?

Have any of the above sites affirmatively decided they do not want to
switch to Flow (yet)?
If so, what are their reasons?

1. 
https://wikiapiary.com/w/index.php?title=Special:Ask=0=20=[[Has+extension%3A%3AExtension%3ALiquid+Threads]]=format%3Dtable%2Flink%3Dall%2Fheaders%3Dshow%2Fmainlabel%3D-2D%2Fintro%3D-3Cb-3EThis-20extension-20is-20in-20use-20on-20the-20following-20websites%3A-3C-2Fb-3E-3Cbr-20-2F-3E%2Fsearchlabel%3D%E2%80%A6-20further-20results%2Fdefault%3DThis-20extension-20is-20no-20longer-20in-20use-20on-20any-20website.%2Fclass%3Dsortable-20wikitable-20smwtable=%3FHas+website%3DWiki+name%0A%3FHas+MediaWiki+version%3DMediaWiki+version%0A%3FHas+extension+version%3DExtension+version%0A=Has+MediaWiki+version=descending%2Crand=no

-- 
John Vandenberg

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[Lila Tretikov]

First, thanks to all of those who worked in good faith, with patience and
care for each other to solve this problem. I appreciate the level of
compromise and empathy that was required from teams at WMIL and WMF. Thank
you!

Second, I want to highlight that this is a *our* issue, we are a community
and we need to think about our *one mission* to engage every human with
knowledge, before our individual goals. Let's please remember that before
we detract and distract with polarizing rhetoric (you know who you are on
this list). Bring up issues, suggest solutions. But please, in good faith
and with care for each other.

Thanks all,
Lila


On Fri, Sep 4, 2015 at 8:26 AM, Peter Southwood <
peter.southw...@telkomsa.net> wrote:

> I was referring to the fundraising targets, which have been cited as a
> cause of the dispute. WMIT/WLM have explained at length their reasons for
> needing banners in September. I am in no position to comment on whether
> their analysis is correct or not . Fundraising has not been so forthcoming
> in response to queries.
> Cheers,
> Peter
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:
> wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Pine W
> Sent: Friday, 04 September 2015 1:45 PM
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in
> Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
>
> I guess I'm not clear on whether you're asking about the Fundraising
> targets or the WLM/WMIT targets, or both. Can you clarify?
>
> My understanding from this email chain is that there will be a
> deconfliction of banner space via better scheduling next year. I think that
> someone suggested setting up a calendar to track banner use, which might
> also be helpful.
>
> I think I'll step out of this conversation for the moment, and let the
> stakeholders take it from here.
>
> Pine
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 4, 2015 at 4:25 AM, Peter Southwood <
> peter.southw...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>
> > One of the basic tenets of health and safety, is that if you have a
> > near miss incident, it should be analysed the same way that a fatal
> > incident would be investigated. Not to apportion blame, even if it is
> > due, but so that the same situation can be avoided in the future.
> > Organisations that fail to do this are doomed to repeat their
> > mistakes, not necessarily by the same people, who may well have
> > learned, but often by other departments, where the people did not get
> the opportunity to learn by the mistake.
> > Refusal to answer reasonable and legitimate questions by stakeholders
> > often leads to accusations of conspiracy and bad faith and can end in
> > the local demagogues, of which we have an adequate supply, inciting
> > the torch and pitchfork brigade. Things may go downhill at this point.
> > Cheers,
> > Peter
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:
> > wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Pine W
> > Sent: Friday, 04 September 2015 8:43 AM
> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments
> > in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
> >
> > Yes, I think it is the case that Fundraising and other organizations
> > (like the WLM coordinators, Wikimedia Italia, and Community Resources
> > / FDC) were working from different playbooks. But now that Fundraising
> > has agreed to change their plans, I think we should give them some
> > breathing room, especially because they say that banner scheduling
> > will be coordinated next year.
> >
> >
> >
> > Pine
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 11:24 PM, Peter Southwood <
> > peter.southw...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
> >
> > > Who set the targets that will now not be met, how were they decided,
> > > and when were they set? I must assume that WLM annual project was
> > > not taken into consideration by these planners.
> > > Cheers,
> > > P
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:
> > > wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Pine W
> > > Sent: Thursday, 03 September 2015 10:51 PM
> > > To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves
> > > Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
> > >
> > > I just want to respond to this point in particular:
> > >
> > > "Postponing the Italian fundraising campaign means for the first
> > > time in at least 4 years, the fundraising team will not be meeting a
> > > target. The team will pick up extra work in October to make up for
> > > work missed in September.
> > > It's not possible to do two months of work in one month, so there
> > > will need to be adjustments later throughout the year to make up for
> > > missing the September target."
> > >
> > > It was somewhat courageous for WMF Fundraising to change its
> > > schedule and forecast missing a target as a result. Two quotes 

[Wikimedia-l] Fwd: Wikimania 15 videos

[Ivan Martínez]

Sorry for the crosspost.
Thanks,

-- Forwarded message --
From: Ivan Martínez 
Date: 2015-09-04 22:38 GMT-05:00
Subject: Wikimania 15 videos
To: "Wikimania general list (open subscription)" <
wikimani...@lists.wikimedia.org>


Hi everyone, the featured speakers videos are up now, both on Commons and
Youtube. We have two versions of each speaker, the original audio and the
simultaneous translation English or Spanish according to the case.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2015_presentation_videos

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLxdLXCagb6RAiK9w2y0DsDUzWF7dgj7j-

Our volunteers will work in the next months in the closed caption of each
talk. Will be very nice if we can have many translations many languages as
possible.

We have pending only the publication of the Wikimania 15 documentary, that
will be premiered soon at National Film Archive of Mexico (Cineteca
Nacional) and TV UNAM, public digital TV with national reach, and then
shared by all our channels. Stay tuned!

Thanks again for the great moments we lived in Mexico City.

Cheers,

-- 
*Iván Martínez*


*Presidente - Wikimedia México A.C.User:ProtoplasmaKid @protoplasmakid*

Hemos creado la más grande colección de conocimiento compartido. Ayuda a
proteger a Wikipedia, dona ahora:
https://donate.wikimedia.org



-- 
*Iván Martínez*


*Presidente - Wikimedia México A.C.User:ProtoplasmaKid @protoplasmakid*

Hemos creado la más grande colección de conocimiento compartido. Ayuda a
proteger a Wikipedia, dona ahora:
https://donate.wikimedia.org
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Collaboration team reprioritization

[MZMcBride]

Amir E. Aharoni wrote:
>Much more importantly, Flow very much does cover basic talk pages. You can
>write a title and an OP and get people to reply. This has been working for
>many months already. This is my definition of "covering basic talk pages".
>
>Even more importantly is that you can write a title and an OP and get
>people to reply ON THEIR PHONES. This is nearly impossible on the classic
>talk pages; on them you are lucky to even manage to read the existing
>discussions, and typing a reply requires extra finger-acrobatics. With
>Flow it's as easy as on Twitter. I do almost no coding for Mobile
>Frontend and apps, but I'm a kind of a volunteer mobile technologies
>ambassador in my home wiki, and good mobile support for talk pages is the
>#1 request that I hear from veteran editors with regards to using
>Wikipedia on their phones. This is another thing that Flow has been doing
>for many months already.

I think most of the points you raise here are true of LiquidThreads or
_any_ prototype of a discussion system. Yes, you get a reply button
instead of needing ":: " wikitext. That's great, I agree, but after
having watched LiquidThreads rot and then seeing a lot of time, money, and
effort put into Flow, I'm pretty dissatisfied with the deliverable being
essentially a very intricate proof-of-concept. I think not getting Flow
fully deployed to Wikimedia wikis is objectively a large failure to
deliver. Consequently, it seems most prudent to be asking what went wrong
and how it will be better next time. The underlying reality is that we
still need a better on-wiki discussion system and it now looks like
neither LiquidThreads nor Flow are going to be it.

MZMcBride



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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[Peter Southwood]

Who set the targets that will now not be met, how were they decided, and when 
were they set? I must assume that WLM annual project was not taken into 
consideration by these planners.
Cheers,
P

-Original Message-
From: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org 
[mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Pine W
Sent: Thursday, 03 September 2015 10:51 PM
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy 
largely blocked by WMF fundraising

I just want to respond to this point in particular:

"Postponing the Italian fundraising campaign means for the first time in at 
least 4 years, the fundraising team will not be meeting a target. The team will 
pick up extra work in October to make up for work missed in September.
It's not possible to do two months of work in one month, so there will need to 
be adjustments later throughout the year to make up for missing the September 
target."

It was somewhat courageous for WMF Fundraising to change its schedule and 
forecast missing a target as a result. Two quotes seem appropriate in the 
context of this conversation, particularly regarding WMF's taking the 
community's priorities into account and absorbing the risks to its plans that 
come with changing to accommodate WLM:

"Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes 
to sit down and listen." -- Winston Churchill.

"Either you decide to stay in the shallow end of the pool or you go out in the 
ocean." --Christopher Reeve

Thanks Megan and all.

Pine


On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 12:29 PM, Mathias Damour  wrote:

> Le 31/08/2015 13:02, Megan Hernandez a écrit :
>
>> Postponing the Italian fundraising campaign means for the first time 
>> in at least 4 years, the fundraising team will not be meeting a 
>> target. The team will pick up extra work in October to make up for 
>> work missed in September.
>> It's not possible to do two months of work in one month, so there 
>> will need to be adjustments later throughout the year to make up for 
>> missing the September target.
>>
>
> The WMF team is without any doubt very professional in "meeting its 
> target" and in smooth communication.
>
> We should also understand that despite the huge growth of the WMF 
> these last few years, it may feel an inferiority complex and think it 
> has a backlog to catch up compared to some much richer neighbouring 
> companies in the San Francisco Bay ! I guess they roughly think: "Why 
> should we have 15 time less employees than Twitter !" That's why 
> raising up the fundraising targets can be more important than to 
> facilitate a WLM event in just one not-so-big country ! :-P
>
> Nevertheless it still give the impression of taking the word-wide 
> donors, the volunteers and the other entities (chapters) for 
> pawns/chess pieces that you may move or stop whenever you want or need...
> Maybe the ones to blame are the neighbouring internet companies for 
> setting a bad example to the WMF... :-\
>
> --
> Mathias Damour
> [[User:Astirmays]]
>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[Pine W]

Yes, I think it is the case that Fundraising and other organizations (like
the WLM coordinators, Wikimedia Italia, and Community Resources / FDC) were
working from different playbooks. But now that Fundraising has agreed to
change their plans, I think we should give them some breathing room,
especially because they say that banner scheduling will be coordinated next
year.



Pine


On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 11:24 PM, Peter Southwood <
peter.southw...@telkomsa.net> wrote:

> Who set the targets that will now not be met, how were they decided, and
> when were they set? I must assume that WLM annual project was not taken
> into consideration by these planners.
> Cheers,
> P
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:
> wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Pine W
> Sent: Thursday, 03 September 2015 10:51 PM
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in
> Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
>
> I just want to respond to this point in particular:
>
> "Postponing the Italian fundraising campaign means for the first time in
> at least 4 years, the fundraising team will not be meeting a target. The
> team will pick up extra work in October to make up for work missed in
> September.
> It's not possible to do two months of work in one month, so there will
> need to be adjustments later throughout the year to make up for missing the
> September target."
>
> It was somewhat courageous for WMF Fundraising to change its schedule and
> forecast missing a target as a result. Two quotes seem appropriate in the
> context of this conversation, particularly regarding WMF's taking the
> community's priorities into account and absorbing the risks to its plans
> that come with changing to accommodate WLM:
>
> "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it
> takes to sit down and listen." -- Winston Churchill.
>
> "Either you decide to stay in the shallow end of the pool or you go out in
> the ocean." --Christopher Reeve
>
> Thanks Megan and all.
>
> Pine
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 12:29 PM, Mathias Damour <
> mathias.dam...@laposte.net
> > wrote:
>
> > Le 31/08/2015 13:02, Megan Hernandez a écrit :
> >
> >> Postponing the Italian fundraising campaign means for the first time
> >> in at least 4 years, the fundraising team will not be meeting a
> >> target. The team will pick up extra work in October to make up for
> >> work missed in September.
> >> It's not possible to do two months of work in one month, so there
> >> will need to be adjustments later throughout the year to make up for
> >> missing the September target.
> >>
> >
> > The WMF team is without any doubt very professional in "meeting its
> > target" and in smooth communication.
> >
> > We should also understand that despite the huge growth of the WMF
> > these last few years, it may feel an inferiority complex and think it
> > has a backlog to catch up compared to some much richer neighbouring
> > companies in the San Francisco Bay ! I guess they roughly think: "Why
> > should we have 15 time less employees than Twitter !" That's why
> > raising up the fundraising targets can be more important than to
> > facilitate a WLM event in just one not-so-big country ! :-P
> >
> > Nevertheless it still give the impression of taking the word-wide
> > donors, the volunteers and the other entities (chapters) for
> > pawns/chess pieces that you may move or stop whenever you want or need...
> > Maybe the ones to blame are the neighbouring internet companies for
> > setting a bad example to the WMF... :-\
> >
> > --
> > Mathias Damour
> > [[User:Astirmays]]
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
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> > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
> >
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