Re: [Wikimedia-l] Thanks, likes and progress on Wikimedia Discourse pilot

2016-02-07 Thread Lodewijk
Is there any progress on finding a mailing list that likes to be guinnea
pig (a.k.a. innovation leader) and try it out? I don't think it has to be
an alternative for this particular mailing list in this phase, any mailing
list of some size would do.

Lodewijk

On Mon, Feb 8, 2016 at 7:34 AM, Erik Bernhardson  wrote:

> The instance looks to be in a 'SHUTOFF' state, this has happened before (to
> other instances) for a variety of reasons, such as a vm moving between
> hosts and something goes wrong. There arn't any labs admins around right
> now, i'll have one look tomorrow morning and turn it back on.
>
> On Sun, Feb 7, 2016 at 10:19 PM, Àlex Hinojo  wrote:
>
> > +1 502 to me also
> >
> > 2016-02-08 6:48 GMT+01:00 Chris Schilling :
> >
> > > Hey Ad,
> > >
> > > I'm getting a 502 Bad Gateway error when trying to access
> > > https://discourse.wmflabs.org/.  Not sure if this is a general error
> > with
> > > wmflabs or something specific to Discourse.
> > >
> > > - Jethro
> > >
> > > On Sun, Feb 7, 2016 at 8:40 AM, Ad Huikeshoven 
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hello readers of wikimedia-l,
> > > >
> > > > One of the outcomes of the 'better thankspam' thread was to
> experiment
> > > with
> > > > a pilot installationg of Discourse. This has been set up at
> > > > https://discourse.wmflabs.org/ by Erik Bernhardson.
> > > > In the past weeks a couple of dozen of people have signed in and have
> > > been
> > > > taking a look around. In a recent thread on wikimedia-l Fæ posted
> > results
> > > > of SQL queries of number of users thanked and number of users
> thanking
> > on
> > > > different wikis.
> > > > On Discourse users can like (by clicking a heart) for individual
> posts.
> > > > Number of hearts received and number of hearts given are by default
> and
> > > > automatically counted by Discourse, and these numbers are public, see
> > > > https://discourse.wmflabs.org/users?period=yearly.
> > > >
> > > > For the Wikimedia Discourse installation to be a succesful pilot it
> has
> > > to
> > > > be a real alternative for the wikimedia-l mailing list. Users want to
> > > read
> > > > posts in their mail, and want to be able to reply to posts by mail,
> > > without
> > > > having to visit the site. Users who have signed up at
> > > > https://discourse.wmflabs.org/ will receive new posts by default in
> > > their
> > > > mailbox. Mail preferences can be individually set. Wikimedia
> Discourse
> > > > users can reply by mail to posts received by mail. Members of
> Wikimedia
> > > > Discourse can mail new posts. Please let me know if anything is
> missing
> > > at
> > > > Wikimedia Discourse that the current wikimedia-l mailing list does
> > have.
> > > > Sign up for an account at https://discourse.wmflabs.org/ to discover
> > the
> > > > extras Discourse offers. Wikimedia Discourse users can earn barnstars
> > for
> > > > example, isn't that nice?
> > > >
> > > > Please note that by subscribing to the wikimedia-l mailing list your
> > > > mailing list subscription isn't linked to any account at any
> Wikimedia
> > > > wiki, neither is your mail address. For the wikimedia-l mailing list
> > you
> > > > will have to provide a mail address and after confirmation mailman
> will
> > > > mail you a password. If you want to sign up at
> > > > https://discourse.wmflabs.org/ you will have to provide a mail
> address
> > > and
> > > > pick a password yourself. Currently their is no link between
> > > > https://discourse.wmflabs.org/ accounts and any account at any
> > Wikimedia
> > > > wiki, nor is their link with mail addresses, just like it as with the
> > > > wikimedia-l mailing list. A phabricator ticket requesting SSO or
> Oauth
> > > 1.0
> > > > or Oauth 2.0 can be found at
> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T124691
> > .
> > > > Currently there are no resources available for writing an Oauth 1.0
> > > plugin
> > > > for Wikimedia Discourse, neither are there resources available for
> > moving
> > > > MediaWiki authentification from Oauth 1.0 to Oauth 2.0. As said, SSO
> or
> > > > Oauth is a 'nice to have' and doesn't have to block a succesful
> pilot.
> > > >
> > > > Secure communication is a must. The Discourse installation is now
> > > > configured to default to use SSL, so you will always see https://.
> > > >
> > > > Here is a short list of places where the Discourse installation can
> be
> > > > discussed:
> > > > * https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Discourse
> > > > * https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Discourse
> > > > * https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T124690
> > > > and of course at the wikimedia-l mailing list and at
> > > > https://discourse.wmflabs.org/.
> > > >
> > > > Best regards,
> > > >
> > > > Ad Huikeshoven
> > > > ___
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > New messages to: 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Thanks, likes and progress on Wikimedia Discourse pilot

2016-02-07 Thread John Mark Vandenberg
On Mon, Feb 8, 2016 at 6:31 PM, Lodewijk  wrote:
> Is there any progress on finding a mailing list that likes to be guinnea
> pig (a.k.a. innovation leader) and try it out? I don't think it has to be
> an alternative for this particular mailing list in this phase, any mailing
> list of some size would do.

wikisource-l was interested, but is concerned about whether high
fidelity dumps of Discourse could be made available in a standard
format.

-- 
John Vandenberg

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] "9 annoying nonprofit trends that need to die"

2016-02-07 Thread rupert THURNER
lol  This is why “Nonprofit: The Musical” will have, as one of its
characters, a consultant robot, whose only job is to repeat exactly
what an internal staff or board member says; the difference is that
the robot actually gets listened to.

On Sat, Feb 6, 2016 at 8:59 PM, Pine W  wrote:
> I think that a number of us may appreciate this article, specifically
> people who are involved with Wikimedia affiliates, grant committees, and
> WMF Community Engagement including CR and PC
>
> http://nonprofitwithballs.com/2015/06/9-annoying-nonprofit-trends-that-need-to-die/
>
> Pine
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 
> 

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[Wikimedia-l] Thanks, likes and progress on Wikimedia Discourse pilot

2016-02-07 Thread Ad Huikeshoven
Hello readers of wikimedia-l,

One of the outcomes of the 'better thankspam' thread was to experiment with
a pilot installationg of Discourse. This has been set up at
https://discourse.wmflabs.org/ by Erik Bernhardson.
In the past weeks a couple of dozen of people have signed in and have been
taking a look around. In a recent thread on wikimedia-l Fæ posted results
of SQL queries of number of users thanked and number of users thanking on
different wikis.
On Discourse users can like (by clicking a heart) for individual posts.
Number of hearts received and number of hearts given are by default and
automatically counted by Discourse, and these numbers are public, see
https://discourse.wmflabs.org/users?period=yearly.

For the Wikimedia Discourse installation to be a succesful pilot it has to
be a real alternative for the wikimedia-l mailing list. Users want to read
posts in their mail, and want to be able to reply to posts by mail, without
having to visit the site. Users who have signed up at
https://discourse.wmflabs.org/ will receive new posts by default in their
mailbox. Mail preferences can be individually set. Wikimedia Discourse
users can reply by mail to posts received by mail. Members of Wikimedia
Discourse can mail new posts. Please let me know if anything is missing at
Wikimedia Discourse that the current wikimedia-l mailing list does have.
Sign up for an account at https://discourse.wmflabs.org/ to discover the
extras Discourse offers. Wikimedia Discourse users can earn barnstars for
example, isn't that nice?

Please note that by subscribing to the wikimedia-l mailing list your
mailing list subscription isn't linked to any account at any Wikimedia
wiki, neither is your mail address. For the wikimedia-l mailing list you
will have to provide a mail address and after confirmation mailman will
mail you a password. If you want to sign up at
https://discourse.wmflabs.org/ you will have to provide a mail address and
pick a password yourself. Currently their is no link between
https://discourse.wmflabs.org/ accounts and any account at any Wikimedia
wiki, nor is their link with mail addresses, just like it as with the
wikimedia-l mailing list. A phabricator ticket requesting SSO or Oauth 1.0
or Oauth 2.0 can be found at https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T124691.
Currently there are no resources available for writing an Oauth 1.0 plugin
for Wikimedia Discourse, neither are there resources available for moving
MediaWiki authentification from Oauth 1.0 to Oauth 2.0. As said, SSO or
Oauth is a 'nice to have' and doesn't have to block a succesful pilot.

Secure communication is a must. The Discourse installation is now
configured to default to use SSL, so you will always see https://.

Here is a short list of places where the Discourse installation can be
discussed:
* https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Discourse
* https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Discourse
* https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T124690
and of course at the wikimedia-l mailing list and at
https://discourse.wmflabs.org/.

Best regards,

Ad Huikeshoven
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] "9 annoying nonprofit trends that need to die"

2016-02-07 Thread Thyge
2016-02-07 19:10 GMT+01:00 Pine W :

> A marketing slogan that I'd like WMF to banish is that Wikipedia is 100%
> written by volunteers. That's simply false.


I find that point of view entirely wrong. The WMF does not pay anybody to
edit, so editors are volunteers. I might follow the same line of reasoning
and say, that Wikipedia is not neutral, because people are allowed to write
about their own country/city etc.

Contributors make a living from other sources. Anybody could have some
affiliation other than getting paid and total neutrality is hard to come by.

Thyge

2016-02-07 19:10 GMT+01:00 Pine W :

> A marketing slogan that I'd like WMF to banish is that Wikipedia is 100%
> written by volunteers. That's simply false. Wikipedia is written by
> individuals with a mix of motives, and for some people those motives
> include financial compensation.
>
> Diverging a little into the topic of paid contributions: generally I feel
> that *disclosed* paid editing is ok so long as it's done in a manner that's
> compliant with our policies. For example, a museum staffer who publicly
> discloses their affiliation and writes on Wikipedia about a fossil that the
> museum has in its collection may be a net positive writer for the
> encyclopedia. On the other hand, a someone who's a POV-pusher for a
> political interest, whether paid or unpaid, may be a net negative for the
> encyclopedia.
>
> In any case, Wikipedia is only partially written by volunteers, and public
> communications from WMF should be consistent with this reality.
>
> Pine
>
> On Sun, Feb 7, 2016 at 1:58 AM, rupert THURNER 
> wrote:
>
> > lol  This is why “Nonprofit: The Musical” will have, as one of its
> > characters, a consultant robot, whose only job is to repeat exactly
> > what an internal staff or board member says; the difference is that
> > the robot actually gets listened to.
> >
> > On Sat, Feb 6, 2016 at 8:59 PM, Pine W  wrote:
> > > I think that a number of us may appreciate this article, specifically
> > > people who are involved with Wikimedia affiliates, grant committees,
> and
> > > WMF Community Engagement including CR and PC
> > >
> > >
> >
> http://nonprofitwithballs.com/2015/06/9-annoying-nonprofit-trends-that-need-to-die/
> > >
> > > Pine
> > > ___
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
> >
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
> >
> ___
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> 
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] "9 annoying nonprofit trends that need to die"

2016-02-07 Thread Pine W
A marketing slogan that I'd like WMF to banish is that Wikipedia is 100%
written by volunteers. That's simply false. Wikipedia is written by
individuals with a mix of motives, and for some people those motives
include financial compensation.

Diverging a little into the topic of paid contributions: generally I feel
that *disclosed* paid editing is ok so long as it's done in a manner that's
compliant with our policies. For example, a museum staffer who publicly
discloses their affiliation and writes on Wikipedia about a fossil that the
museum has in its collection may be a net positive writer for the
encyclopedia. On the other hand, a someone who's a POV-pusher for a
political interest, whether paid or unpaid, may be a net negative for the
encyclopedia.

In any case, Wikipedia is only partially written by volunteers, and public
communications from WMF should be consistent with this reality.

Pine

On Sun, Feb 7, 2016 at 1:58 AM, rupert THURNER 
wrote:

> lol  This is why “Nonprofit: The Musical” will have, as one of its
> characters, a consultant robot, whose only job is to repeat exactly
> what an internal staff or board member says; the difference is that
> the robot actually gets listened to.
>
> On Sat, Feb 6, 2016 at 8:59 PM, Pine W  wrote:
> > I think that a number of us may appreciate this article, specifically
> > people who are involved with Wikimedia affiliates, grant committees, and
> > WMF Community Engagement including CR and PC
> >
> >
> http://nonprofitwithballs.com/2015/06/9-annoying-nonprofit-trends-that-need-to-die/
> >
> > Pine
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
>
> ___
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> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
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> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] "9 annoying nonprofit trends that need to die"

2016-02-07 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
What is your intention, to be "right" at all cost?
Thanks,
 GerardM

On 8 February 2016 at 00:04, Pine W  wrote:

> The fact that someone is not paid *by WMF* to edit does not mean that they
> are a volunteer. That would be like saying that a newspaper salesperson
> standing at the door of a grocery store is a volunteer because he is not
> paid by the grocer and instead paid by the newspaper. As with paid
> contributors to Wikipedia, the newspaper salesperson's presence at the door
> of the grocery store may or
> may not be in compliance with the policies of the grocery store.
>
> Agreed that perfect neutrality is difficult, but we try to achieve
> neutrality through the wisdom of the crowds and avoiding undue weight. We
> have a policy on neutrality; we don't have a policy that forbids all paid
> editing, and in some cases I feel that paid editors who are honest about
> their affiliations and compensation can be net positives on Wikipedia.
>
> Pine
>
>
>
> On Sun, Feb 7, 2016 at 2:17 PM, Thyge  wrote:
>
> > 2016-02-07 19:10 GMT+01:00 Pine W :
> >
> > > A marketing slogan that I'd like WMF to banish is that Wikipedia is
> 100%
> > > written by volunteers. That's simply false.
> >
> >
> > I find that point of view entirely wrong. The WMF does not pay anybody to
> > edit, so editors are volunteers. I might follow the same line of
> reasoning
> > and say, that Wikipedia is not neutral, because people are allowed to
> write
> > about their own country/city etc.
> >
> > Contributors make a living from other sources. Anybody could have some
> > affiliation other than getting paid and total neutrality is hard to come
> > by.
> >
> > Thyge
> >
> > 2016-02-07 19:10 GMT+01:00 Pine W :
> >
> > > A marketing slogan that I'd like WMF to banish is that Wikipedia is
> 100%
> > > written by volunteers. That's simply false. Wikipedia is written by
> > > individuals with a mix of motives, and for some people those motives
> > > include financial compensation.
> > >
> > > Diverging a little into the topic of paid contributions: generally I
> feel
> > > that *disclosed* paid editing is ok so long as it's done in a manner
> > that's
> > > compliant with our policies. For example, a museum staffer who publicly
> > > discloses their affiliation and writes on Wikipedia about a fossil that
> > the
> > > museum has in its collection may be a net positive writer for the
> > > encyclopedia. On the other hand, a someone who's a POV-pusher for a
> > > political interest, whether paid or unpaid, may be a net negative for
> the
> > > encyclopedia.
> > >
> > > In any case, Wikipedia is only partially written by volunteers, and
> > public
> > > communications from WMF should be consistent with this reality.
> > >
> > > Pine
> > >
> > > On Sun, Feb 7, 2016 at 1:58 AM, rupert THURNER <
> rupert.thur...@gmail.com
> > >
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > lol  This is why “Nonprofit: The Musical” will have, as one of
> its
> > > > characters, a consultant robot, whose only job is to repeat exactly
> > > > what an internal staff or board member says; the difference is that
> > > > the robot actually gets listened to.
> > > >
> > > > On Sat, Feb 6, 2016 at 8:59 PM, Pine W  wrote:
> > > > > I think that a number of us may appreciate this article,
> specifically
> > > > > people who are involved with Wikimedia affiliates, grant
> committees,
> > > and
> > > > > WMF Community Engagement including CR and PC
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://nonprofitwithballs.com/2015/06/9-annoying-nonprofit-trends-that-need-to-die/
> > > > >
> > > > > Pine
> > > > > ___
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > 
> > > >
> > > > ___
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > 
> > > >
> > > ___
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > 
> > >
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] "9 annoying nonprofit trends that need to die"

2016-02-07 Thread Gnangarra
Some Wikipedians in Residence also get paid for their work, saying
"Wikipedia is written by volunteers" is honest and doesnt have the puffary
of 100%. As a community we are working to create more activities, projects
and partnerships with GLAM where the people participating are being paid to
edit as part of their employment so yeah 100% is no longer an honest
declaration even if its just few 100 people out the 70,000 plus that
contribute every month

On 8 February 2016 at 07:10, Gerard Meijssen 
wrote:

> Hoi,
> What is your intention, to be "right" at all cost?
> Thanks,
>  GerardM
>
> On 8 February 2016 at 00:04, Pine W  wrote:
>
> > The fact that someone is not paid *by WMF* to edit does not mean that
> they
> > are a volunteer. That would be like saying that a newspaper salesperson
> > standing at the door of a grocery store is a volunteer because he is not
> > paid by the grocer and instead paid by the newspaper. As with paid
> > contributors to Wikipedia, the newspaper salesperson's presence at the
> door
> > of the grocery store may or
> > may not be in compliance with the policies of the grocery store.
> >
> > Agreed that perfect neutrality is difficult, but we try to achieve
> > neutrality through the wisdom of the crowds and avoiding undue weight. We
> > have a policy on neutrality; we don't have a policy that forbids all paid
> > editing, and in some cases I feel that paid editors who are honest about
> > their affiliations and compensation can be net positives on Wikipedia.
> >
> > Pine
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Feb 7, 2016 at 2:17 PM, Thyge  wrote:
> >
> > > 2016-02-07 19:10 GMT+01:00 Pine W :
> > >
> > > > A marketing slogan that I'd like WMF to banish is that Wikipedia is
> > 100%
> > > > written by volunteers. That's simply false.
> > >
> > >
> > > I find that point of view entirely wrong. The WMF does not pay anybody
> to
> > > edit, so editors are volunteers. I might follow the same line of
> > reasoning
> > > and say, that Wikipedia is not neutral, because people are allowed to
> > write
> > > about their own country/city etc.
> > >
> > > Contributors make a living from other sources. Anybody could have some
> > > affiliation other than getting paid and total neutrality is hard to
> come
> > > by.
> > >
> > > Thyge
> > >
> > > 2016-02-07 19:10 GMT+01:00 Pine W :
> > >
> > > > A marketing slogan that I'd like WMF to banish is that Wikipedia is
> > 100%
> > > > written by volunteers. That's simply false. Wikipedia is written by
> > > > individuals with a mix of motives, and for some people those motives
> > > > include financial compensation.
> > > >
> > > > Diverging a little into the topic of paid contributions: generally I
> > feel
> > > > that *disclosed* paid editing is ok so long as it's done in a manner
> > > that's
> > > > compliant with our policies. For example, a museum staffer who
> publicly
> > > > discloses their affiliation and writes on Wikipedia about a fossil
> that
> > > the
> > > > museum has in its collection may be a net positive writer for the
> > > > encyclopedia. On the other hand, a someone who's a POV-pusher for a
> > > > political interest, whether paid or unpaid, may be a net negative for
> > the
> > > > encyclopedia.
> > > >
> > > > In any case, Wikipedia is only partially written by volunteers, and
> > > public
> > > > communications from WMF should be consistent with this reality.
> > > >
> > > > Pine
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, Feb 7, 2016 at 1:58 AM, rupert THURNER <
> > rupert.thur...@gmail.com
> > > >
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > lol  This is why “Nonprofit: The Musical” will have, as one of
> > its
> > > > > characters, a consultant robot, whose only job is to repeat exactly
> > > > > what an internal staff or board member says; the difference is that
> > > > > the robot actually gets listened to.
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sat, Feb 6, 2016 at 8:59 PM, Pine W 
> wrote:
> > > > > > I think that a number of us may appreciate this article,
> > specifically
> > > > > > people who are involved with Wikimedia affiliates, grant
> > committees,
> > > > and
> > > > > > WMF Community Engagement including CR and PC
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://nonprofitwithballs.com/2015/06/9-annoying-nonprofit-trends-that-need-to-die/
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Pine
> > > > > > ___
> > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > >  ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > >
> > > > > ___
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] "9 annoying nonprofit trends that need to die"

2016-02-07 Thread Pine W
The fact that someone is not paid *by WMF* to edit does not mean that they
are a volunteer. That would be like saying that a newspaper salesperson
standing at the door of a grocery store is a volunteer because he is not
paid by the grocer and instead paid by the newspaper. As with paid
contributors to Wikipedia, the newspaper salesperson's presence at the door
of the grocery store may or
may not be in compliance with the policies of the grocery store.

Agreed that perfect neutrality is difficult, but we try to achieve
neutrality through the wisdom of the crowds and avoiding undue weight. We
have a policy on neutrality; we don't have a policy that forbids all paid
editing, and in some cases I feel that paid editors who are honest about
their affiliations and compensation can be net positives on Wikipedia.

Pine



On Sun, Feb 7, 2016 at 2:17 PM, Thyge  wrote:

> 2016-02-07 19:10 GMT+01:00 Pine W :
>
> > A marketing slogan that I'd like WMF to banish is that Wikipedia is 100%
> > written by volunteers. That's simply false.
>
>
> I find that point of view entirely wrong. The WMF does not pay anybody to
> edit, so editors are volunteers. I might follow the same line of reasoning
> and say, that Wikipedia is not neutral, because people are allowed to write
> about their own country/city etc.
>
> Contributors make a living from other sources. Anybody could have some
> affiliation other than getting paid and total neutrality is hard to come
> by.
>
> Thyge
>
> 2016-02-07 19:10 GMT+01:00 Pine W :
>
> > A marketing slogan that I'd like WMF to banish is that Wikipedia is 100%
> > written by volunteers. That's simply false. Wikipedia is written by
> > individuals with a mix of motives, and for some people those motives
> > include financial compensation.
> >
> > Diverging a little into the topic of paid contributions: generally I feel
> > that *disclosed* paid editing is ok so long as it's done in a manner
> that's
> > compliant with our policies. For example, a museum staffer who publicly
> > discloses their affiliation and writes on Wikipedia about a fossil that
> the
> > museum has in its collection may be a net positive writer for the
> > encyclopedia. On the other hand, a someone who's a POV-pusher for a
> > political interest, whether paid or unpaid, may be a net negative for the
> > encyclopedia.
> >
> > In any case, Wikipedia is only partially written by volunteers, and
> public
> > communications from WMF should be consistent with this reality.
> >
> > Pine
> >
> > On Sun, Feb 7, 2016 at 1:58 AM, rupert THURNER  >
> > wrote:
> >
> > > lol  This is why “Nonprofit: The Musical” will have, as one of its
> > > characters, a consultant robot, whose only job is to repeat exactly
> > > what an internal staff or board member says; the difference is that
> > > the robot actually gets listened to.
> > >
> > > On Sat, Feb 6, 2016 at 8:59 PM, Pine W  wrote:
> > > > I think that a number of us may appreciate this article, specifically
> > > > people who are involved with Wikimedia affiliates, grant committees,
> > and
> > > > WMF Community Engagement including CR and PC
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://nonprofitwithballs.com/2015/06/9-annoying-nonprofit-trends-that-need-to-die/
> > > >
> > > > Pine
> > > > ___
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > 
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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> > > 
> > >
> > ___
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> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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> > 
> >
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> 
>
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New messages 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] "9 annoying nonprofit trends that need to die"

2016-02-07 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
It would be a travesty when a "Wikipedian in residence" is paid only to
write articles. In my honest opinion, I doubt that they have much time to
write themselves. This whole negativity that this thread is part of
indicates how sick the "community" is because it is not the "community", it
is people who think that their values are the community...

No reason why, there are maybe a few hundred of them in this way... if at
all.
Thanks,
  GerardM

On 8 February 2016 at 01:09, Gnangarra  wrote:

> Some Wikipedians in Residence also get paid for their work, saying
> "Wikipedia is written by volunteers" is honest and doesnt have the puffary
> of 100%. As a community we are working to create more activities, projects
> and partnerships with GLAM where the people participating are being paid to
> edit as part of their employment so yeah 100% is no longer an honest
> declaration even if its just few 100 people out the 70,000 plus that
> contribute every month
>
> On 8 February 2016 at 07:10, Gerard Meijssen 
> wrote:
>
> > Hoi,
> > What is your intention, to be "right" at all cost?
> > Thanks,
> >  GerardM
> >
> > On 8 February 2016 at 00:04, Pine W  wrote:
> >
> > > The fact that someone is not paid *by WMF* to edit does not mean that
> > they
> > > are a volunteer. That would be like saying that a newspaper salesperson
> > > standing at the door of a grocery store is a volunteer because he is
> not
> > > paid by the grocer and instead paid by the newspaper. As with paid
> > > contributors to Wikipedia, the newspaper salesperson's presence at the
> > door
> > > of the grocery store may or
> > > may not be in compliance with the policies of the grocery store.
> > >
> > > Agreed that perfect neutrality is difficult, but we try to achieve
> > > neutrality through the wisdom of the crowds and avoiding undue weight.
> We
> > > have a policy on neutrality; we don't have a policy that forbids all
> paid
> > > editing, and in some cases I feel that paid editors who are honest
> about
> > > their affiliations and compensation can be net positives on Wikipedia.
> > >
> > > Pine
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sun, Feb 7, 2016 at 2:17 PM, Thyge  wrote:
> > >
> > > > 2016-02-07 19:10 GMT+01:00 Pine W :
> > > >
> > > > > A marketing slogan that I'd like WMF to banish is that Wikipedia is
> > > 100%
> > > > > written by volunteers. That's simply false.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I find that point of view entirely wrong. The WMF does not pay
> anybody
> > to
> > > > edit, so editors are volunteers. I might follow the same line of
> > > reasoning
> > > > and say, that Wikipedia is not neutral, because people are allowed to
> > > write
> > > > about their own country/city etc.
> > > >
> > > > Contributors make a living from other sources. Anybody could have
> some
> > > > affiliation other than getting paid and total neutrality is hard to
> > come
> > > > by.
> > > >
> > > > Thyge
> > > >
> > > > 2016-02-07 19:10 GMT+01:00 Pine W :
> > > >
> > > > > A marketing slogan that I'd like WMF to banish is that Wikipedia is
> > > 100%
> > > > > written by volunteers. That's simply false. Wikipedia is written by
> > > > > individuals with a mix of motives, and for some people those
> motives
> > > > > include financial compensation.
> > > > >
> > > > > Diverging a little into the topic of paid contributions: generally
> I
> > > feel
> > > > > that *disclosed* paid editing is ok so long as it's done in a
> manner
> > > > that's
> > > > > compliant with our policies. For example, a museum staffer who
> > publicly
> > > > > discloses their affiliation and writes on Wikipedia about a fossil
> > that
> > > > the
> > > > > museum has in its collection may be a net positive writer for the
> > > > > encyclopedia. On the other hand, a someone who's a POV-pusher for a
> > > > > political interest, whether paid or unpaid, may be a net negative
> for
> > > the
> > > > > encyclopedia.
> > > > >
> > > > > In any case, Wikipedia is only partially written by volunteers, and
> > > > public
> > > > > communications from WMF should be consistent with this reality.
> > > > >
> > > > > Pine
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sun, Feb 7, 2016 at 1:58 AM, rupert THURNER <
> > > rupert.thur...@gmail.com
> > > > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > lol  This is why “Nonprofit: The Musical” will have, as one
> of
> > > its
> > > > > > characters, a consultant robot, whose only job is to repeat
> exactly
> > > > > > what an internal staff or board member says; the difference is
> that
> > > > > > the robot actually gets listened to.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Sat, Feb 6, 2016 at 8:59 PM, Pine W 
> > wrote:
> > > > > > > I think that a number of us may appreciate this article,
> > > specifically
> > > > > > > people who are involved with Wikimedia affiliates, grant
> > > committees,
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > WMF 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Can we see the Knight grant application and grant offer?

2016-02-07 Thread Ruslan Takayev
Chris, et al

Ruslan - what makes you think the two issues are connected?
>

James was pushing for greater transparency on the BoT. This is the one
major issue that arose during James on the board that wasn't transparent at
the time.

You can put 2 + 2 together from that.


> I have heard nothing from the WMF that suggests that they are.
>

We've heard sound bytes, but we haven't heard anything of substance from
the BoT on the issue of why James was ushered off the Board.

>
> A few other people are trying to draw some link between the two, but the
> burden of proof is on them not on Lila
>

Lila could easily shut down these lines of questioning by publishing the
grant application, as was originally requested by others.

Warm regards,

Ruslan Takayev

On Sun, Feb 7, 2016 at 6:41 AM, Chris Keating 
wrote:

> >
> >
> > I have some one question for you.
> >
> > I am having a very hard time wrapping my head around how the grant
> > information you posted lead to WMF BoT voting James Heilman of the board
> in
> > a vote of no-confidence.
> >
>
> Ruslan - what makes you think the two issues are connected?
>
> I have heard nothing from the WMF that suggests that they are.
>
> A few other people are trying to draw some link between the two, but the
> burden of proof is on them not on Lila
>
> Regards,
>
> Chris
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Can we see the Knight grant application and grant offer?

2016-02-07 Thread Tim Starling
On 07/02/16 09:41, Chris Keating wrote:
>>
>>
>> I have some one question for you.
>>
>> I am having a very hard time wrapping my head around how the grant
>> information you posted lead to WMF BoT voting James Heilman of the board in
>> a vote of no-confidence.
>>
> 
> Ruslan - what makes you think the two issues are connected?
> 
> I have heard nothing from the WMF that suggests that they are.
> 
> A few other people are trying to draw some link between the two, but the
> burden of proof is on them not on Lila

Maybe you missed this:



In which James Heilman, by way of explaining why he was removed from
the board, complains of a lack of transparency, links to the
announcement of the Knight Foundation grant, and comments "many
details however are still missing."

-- Tim Starling


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Thanks, likes and progress on Wikimedia Discourse pilot

2016-02-07 Thread Erik Bernhardson
The instance looks to be in a 'SHUTOFF' state, this has happened before (to
other instances) for a variety of reasons, such as a vm moving between
hosts and something goes wrong. There arn't any labs admins around right
now, i'll have one look tomorrow morning and turn it back on.

On Sun, Feb 7, 2016 at 10:19 PM, Àlex Hinojo  wrote:

> +1 502 to me also
>
> 2016-02-08 6:48 GMT+01:00 Chris Schilling :
>
> > Hey Ad,
> >
> > I'm getting a 502 Bad Gateway error when trying to access
> > https://discourse.wmflabs.org/.  Not sure if this is a general error
> with
> > wmflabs or something specific to Discourse.
> >
> > - Jethro
> >
> > On Sun, Feb 7, 2016 at 8:40 AM, Ad Huikeshoven  wrote:
> >
> > > Hello readers of wikimedia-l,
> > >
> > > One of the outcomes of the 'better thankspam' thread was to experiment
> > with
> > > a pilot installationg of Discourse. This has been set up at
> > > https://discourse.wmflabs.org/ by Erik Bernhardson.
> > > In the past weeks a couple of dozen of people have signed in and have
> > been
> > > taking a look around. In a recent thread on wikimedia-l Fæ posted
> results
> > > of SQL queries of number of users thanked and number of users thanking
> on
> > > different wikis.
> > > On Discourse users can like (by clicking a heart) for individual posts.
> > > Number of hearts received and number of hearts given are by default and
> > > automatically counted by Discourse, and these numbers are public, see
> > > https://discourse.wmflabs.org/users?period=yearly.
> > >
> > > For the Wikimedia Discourse installation to be a succesful pilot it has
> > to
> > > be a real alternative for the wikimedia-l mailing list. Users want to
> > read
> > > posts in their mail, and want to be able to reply to posts by mail,
> > without
> > > having to visit the site. Users who have signed up at
> > > https://discourse.wmflabs.org/ will receive new posts by default in
> > their
> > > mailbox. Mail preferences can be individually set. Wikimedia Discourse
> > > users can reply by mail to posts received by mail. Members of Wikimedia
> > > Discourse can mail new posts. Please let me know if anything is missing
> > at
> > > Wikimedia Discourse that the current wikimedia-l mailing list does
> have.
> > > Sign up for an account at https://discourse.wmflabs.org/ to discover
> the
> > > extras Discourse offers. Wikimedia Discourse users can earn barnstars
> for
> > > example, isn't that nice?
> > >
> > > Please note that by subscribing to the wikimedia-l mailing list your
> > > mailing list subscription isn't linked to any account at any Wikimedia
> > > wiki, neither is your mail address. For the wikimedia-l mailing list
> you
> > > will have to provide a mail address and after confirmation mailman will
> > > mail you a password. If you want to sign up at
> > > https://discourse.wmflabs.org/ you will have to provide a mail address
> > and
> > > pick a password yourself. Currently their is no link between
> > > https://discourse.wmflabs.org/ accounts and any account at any
> Wikimedia
> > > wiki, nor is their link with mail addresses, just like it as with the
> > > wikimedia-l mailing list. A phabricator ticket requesting SSO or Oauth
> > 1.0
> > > or Oauth 2.0 can be found at https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T124691
> .
> > > Currently there are no resources available for writing an Oauth 1.0
> > plugin
> > > for Wikimedia Discourse, neither are there resources available for
> moving
> > > MediaWiki authentification from Oauth 1.0 to Oauth 2.0. As said, SSO or
> > > Oauth is a 'nice to have' and doesn't have to block a succesful pilot.
> > >
> > > Secure communication is a must. The Discourse installation is now
> > > configured to default to use SSL, so you will always see https://.
> > >
> > > Here is a short list of places where the Discourse installation can be
> > > discussed:
> > > * https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Discourse
> > > * https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Discourse
> > > * https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T124690
> > > and of course at the wikimedia-l mailing list and at
> > > https://discourse.wmflabs.org/.
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > >
> > > Ad Huikeshoven
> > > ___
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > 
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Chris "Jethro" Schilling
> > I JethroBT (WMF) 
> > Community Organizer, Wikimedia Foundation
> > 
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > New messages to: 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Thanks, likes and progress on Wikimedia Discourse pilot

2016-02-07 Thread Chris Schilling
Hey Ad,

I'm getting a 502 Bad Gateway error when trying to access
https://discourse.wmflabs.org/.  Not sure if this is a general error with
wmflabs or something specific to Discourse.

- Jethro

On Sun, Feb 7, 2016 at 8:40 AM, Ad Huikeshoven  wrote:

> Hello readers of wikimedia-l,
>
> One of the outcomes of the 'better thankspam' thread was to experiment with
> a pilot installationg of Discourse. This has been set up at
> https://discourse.wmflabs.org/ by Erik Bernhardson.
> In the past weeks a couple of dozen of people have signed in and have been
> taking a look around. In a recent thread on wikimedia-l Fæ posted results
> of SQL queries of number of users thanked and number of users thanking on
> different wikis.
> On Discourse users can like (by clicking a heart) for individual posts.
> Number of hearts received and number of hearts given are by default and
> automatically counted by Discourse, and these numbers are public, see
> https://discourse.wmflabs.org/users?period=yearly.
>
> For the Wikimedia Discourse installation to be a succesful pilot it has to
> be a real alternative for the wikimedia-l mailing list. Users want to read
> posts in their mail, and want to be able to reply to posts by mail, without
> having to visit the site. Users who have signed up at
> https://discourse.wmflabs.org/ will receive new posts by default in their
> mailbox. Mail preferences can be individually set. Wikimedia Discourse
> users can reply by mail to posts received by mail. Members of Wikimedia
> Discourse can mail new posts. Please let me know if anything is missing at
> Wikimedia Discourse that the current wikimedia-l mailing list does have.
> Sign up for an account at https://discourse.wmflabs.org/ to discover the
> extras Discourse offers. Wikimedia Discourse users can earn barnstars for
> example, isn't that nice?
>
> Please note that by subscribing to the wikimedia-l mailing list your
> mailing list subscription isn't linked to any account at any Wikimedia
> wiki, neither is your mail address. For the wikimedia-l mailing list you
> will have to provide a mail address and after confirmation mailman will
> mail you a password. If you want to sign up at
> https://discourse.wmflabs.org/ you will have to provide a mail address and
> pick a password yourself. Currently their is no link between
> https://discourse.wmflabs.org/ accounts and any account at any Wikimedia
> wiki, nor is their link with mail addresses, just like it as with the
> wikimedia-l mailing list. A phabricator ticket requesting SSO or Oauth 1.0
> or Oauth 2.0 can be found at https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T124691.
> Currently there are no resources available for writing an Oauth 1.0 plugin
> for Wikimedia Discourse, neither are there resources available for moving
> MediaWiki authentification from Oauth 1.0 to Oauth 2.0. As said, SSO or
> Oauth is a 'nice to have' and doesn't have to block a succesful pilot.
>
> Secure communication is a must. The Discourse installation is now
> configured to default to use SSL, so you will always see https://.
>
> Here is a short list of places where the Discourse installation can be
> discussed:
> * https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Discourse
> * https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Discourse
> * https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T124690
> and of course at the wikimedia-l mailing list and at
> https://discourse.wmflabs.org/.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Ad Huikeshoven
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 




-- 
Chris "Jethro" Schilling
I JethroBT (WMF) 
Community Organizer, Wikimedia Foundation

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[Wikimedia-l] WMF Program Capacity & Learning consultation

2016-02-07 Thread Pine W
In case others are interested, WMF PC is having a public consultation.
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Program_Capacity_and_Learning

Subjects that are under discussion include the PC "criteria
"
as well as:

   - 1 Programs Learning and Infrastructure
   

  - 1.1 *Process: GLAM-Wiki Support*
  

  - 1.2 *Tool: Wikimedia Knowledge Hub*
  

  - 1.3 *Tool: Program and Events Dashboard*
  

  - 1.4 *Process: Outcome Mapping*
  

   - 2 Community Leadership Development
   

  - 2.1 *Process: Affiliate Partnerships*
  

  - 2.2 *Process: Community Listening Project*
  

  - 2.3 *Process: Peer Mentoring & Leadership*
  


I often find it interesting to see what's cooking in WMF's kitchen and I
hope that others will take a look also.

It's great to see a team consulting the community early in the Annual Plan
development process.

Pine
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Thanks, likes and progress on Wikimedia Discourse pilot

2016-02-07 Thread Àlex Hinojo
+1 502 to me also

2016-02-08 6:48 GMT+01:00 Chris Schilling :

> Hey Ad,
>
> I'm getting a 502 Bad Gateway error when trying to access
> https://discourse.wmflabs.org/.  Not sure if this is a general error with
> wmflabs or something specific to Discourse.
>
> - Jethro
>
> On Sun, Feb 7, 2016 at 8:40 AM, Ad Huikeshoven  wrote:
>
> > Hello readers of wikimedia-l,
> >
> > One of the outcomes of the 'better thankspam' thread was to experiment
> with
> > a pilot installationg of Discourse. This has been set up at
> > https://discourse.wmflabs.org/ by Erik Bernhardson.
> > In the past weeks a couple of dozen of people have signed in and have
> been
> > taking a look around. In a recent thread on wikimedia-l Fæ posted results
> > of SQL queries of number of users thanked and number of users thanking on
> > different wikis.
> > On Discourse users can like (by clicking a heart) for individual posts.
> > Number of hearts received and number of hearts given are by default and
> > automatically counted by Discourse, and these numbers are public, see
> > https://discourse.wmflabs.org/users?period=yearly.
> >
> > For the Wikimedia Discourse installation to be a succesful pilot it has
> to
> > be a real alternative for the wikimedia-l mailing list. Users want to
> read
> > posts in their mail, and want to be able to reply to posts by mail,
> without
> > having to visit the site. Users who have signed up at
> > https://discourse.wmflabs.org/ will receive new posts by default in
> their
> > mailbox. Mail preferences can be individually set. Wikimedia Discourse
> > users can reply by mail to posts received by mail. Members of Wikimedia
> > Discourse can mail new posts. Please let me know if anything is missing
> at
> > Wikimedia Discourse that the current wikimedia-l mailing list does have.
> > Sign up for an account at https://discourse.wmflabs.org/ to discover the
> > extras Discourse offers. Wikimedia Discourse users can earn barnstars for
> > example, isn't that nice?
> >
> > Please note that by subscribing to the wikimedia-l mailing list your
> > mailing list subscription isn't linked to any account at any Wikimedia
> > wiki, neither is your mail address. For the wikimedia-l mailing list you
> > will have to provide a mail address and after confirmation mailman will
> > mail you a password. If you want to sign up at
> > https://discourse.wmflabs.org/ you will have to provide a mail address
> and
> > pick a password yourself. Currently their is no link between
> > https://discourse.wmflabs.org/ accounts and any account at any Wikimedia
> > wiki, nor is their link with mail addresses, just like it as with the
> > wikimedia-l mailing list. A phabricator ticket requesting SSO or Oauth
> 1.0
> > or Oauth 2.0 can be found at https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T124691.
> > Currently there are no resources available for writing an Oauth 1.0
> plugin
> > for Wikimedia Discourse, neither are there resources available for moving
> > MediaWiki authentification from Oauth 1.0 to Oauth 2.0. As said, SSO or
> > Oauth is a 'nice to have' and doesn't have to block a succesful pilot.
> >
> > Secure communication is a must. The Discourse installation is now
> > configured to default to use SSL, so you will always see https://.
> >
> > Here is a short list of places where the Discourse installation can be
> > discussed:
> > * https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Discourse
> > * https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Discourse
> > * https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T124690
> > and of course at the wikimedia-l mailing list and at
> > https://discourse.wmflabs.org/.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Ad Huikeshoven
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
>
>
>
>
> --
> Chris "Jethro" Schilling
> I JethroBT (WMF) 
> Community Organizer, Wikimedia Foundation
> 
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
>



-- 
--
Àlex Hinojo / Kippelboy
Programme Manager / Director de projectes
Amical Wikimedia
www.wikimedia.cat
@kippelboy / @Kippelboy_cat / @AmicalWikimedia
--
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New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org