Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice

2017-02-11 Thread Andy Mabbett
On 11 February 2017 at 21:18, Michael Peel  wrote:
>> asaf, you are one of the most respected dinosaurs in this universe,

> Which species of dinosaur?

Wikisourus, of course.


-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice

2017-02-11 Thread Michael Peel

> On 11 Feb 2017, at 19:08, rupert THURNER  wrote:
> 
> On Sat, Feb 11, 2017 at 7:49 PM, Asaf Bartov  wrote:
>> Hello, everyone.
>> 
>> I share the opinion that moderation actions should be transparent. So:
>> 
>> I have now placed Gerard Meijssen on moderation.  He has been posting very
>> frequently to the list, far exceeding the requested "soft limit" of 30
>> posts per month, and has exhibited disrespectful discourse.
>> 
>> I encourage Gerard to revise his approach to communicating on this list.
>> He will be unmoderated next month.
> 
> asaf, you are one of the most respected dinosaurs in this universe,
> and you need to use moderation instead of a private word? i have a
> hard time believing my eyes.

Which species of dinosaur?

This seems like a standard moderator action, based on the long-term notices 
that have been sent around to the list over the last few years. I like the 
extra on-list transparency here (please keep it up!), and would like to thank 
Asaf for taking on this extra duty.

Thanks,
Mike


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice

2017-02-11 Thread rupert THURNER
On Sat, Feb 11, 2017 at 7:49 PM, Asaf Bartov  wrote:
> Hello, everyone.
>
> I share the opinion that moderation actions should be transparent. So:
>
> I have now placed Gerard Meijssen on moderation.  He has been posting very
> frequently to the list, far exceeding the requested "soft limit" of 30
> posts per month, and has exhibited disrespectful discourse.
>
> I encourage Gerard to revise his approach to communicating on this list.
> He will be unmoderated next month.

asaf, you are one of the most respected dinosaurs in this universe,
and you need to use moderation instead of a private word? i have a
hard time believing my eyes.

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[Wikimedia-l] Au secours la traduction!

2017-02-11 Thread marc

English text follows.

Bonjour les francophones!  Le Wiki de Wikimania 2017 à Montréal a 
besoin d'aide de volontaires pour assurer la traduction vers le 
français.  Les équipes organisationnelles sont au dur labeur de tout 
mettre en place mais la mise à jour des pages en français prends un 
retard énorme particulièrement regrettable du fait que la treizième 
Wikimania est également la première où le français tient un place 
d'honneur.


Si vous lisez bien l'anglais et avez quelques minutes de votre temps a 
donner, traduisez quelques fragments de pages[1]!  En particulier, les 
pages pour les bourses[2] et les soumissions[3] sont particulièrement 
importantes pour permettre au francophones de participer pleinement!


Merci!

--

Greetings!  The Wikimania 2017 wiki needs volunteer help to ensure 
translation to French is achieved timely.  The organising teams are hard 
work setting everying up, but updating the French traductions have 
fallen behind - which is particularly regrettable since the thirteenth 
Wikimania is also the first where French is put into the spotlight.


If you have skill at translating to French and have a few minutes of 
your time to give, please help translate a few page fragments[1]!  The 
pages for scholarships[2] and submissions[3] are especially critical to 
allow the francophone community to participate fully!


Thanks!

-- Coren / Marc
   Wikimania 2017


[1] 
https://wikimania2017.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Translate?language=fr==page=1=%21additions
[2] 
https://wikimania2017.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Translate?language=fr=page-Scholarships=%21translated=translate
[3] 
https://wikimania2017.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Translate?language=fr=page-Submissions=%21translated=translate



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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice

2017-02-11 Thread Peter Southwood
In the interests of clarity, does the soft limit apply by calendar month?
I don’t think Gerard is disrespectful so much as brusque in his communication 
style. Perhaps this is due to communicating in what is for him a foreign 
language.
Cheers,
Peter

-Original Message-
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of 
Asaf Bartov
Sent: Saturday, 11 February 2017 8:49 PM
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice

Hello, everyone.

I share the opinion that moderation actions should be transparent. So:

I have now placed Gerard Meijssen on moderation.  He has been posting very 
frequently to the list, far exceeding the requested "soft limit" of 30 posts 
per month, and has exhibited disrespectful discourse.

I encourage Gerard to revise his approach to communicating on this list.
He will be unmoderated next month.

   A.
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-
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2016.0.7998 / Virus Database: 4756/13931 - Release Date: 02/11/17


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice

2017-02-11 Thread John Erling Blad
Gerard, ... he has good points too, even if he is stubborn like a mule -
like the rest og us! ;)

11. feb. 2017 19.49 skrev "Asaf Bartov" :

> Hello, everyone.
>
> I share the opinion that moderation actions should be transparent. So:
>
> I have now placed Gerard Meijssen on moderation.  He has been posting very
> frequently to the list, far exceeding the requested "soft limit" of 30
> posts per month, and has exhibited disrespectful discourse.
>
> I encourage Gerard to revise his approach to communicating on this list.
> He will be unmoderated next month.
>
>A.
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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[Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice

2017-02-11 Thread Asaf Bartov
Hello, everyone.

I share the opinion that moderation actions should be transparent. So:

I have now placed Gerard Meijssen on moderation.  He has been posting very
frequently to the list, far exceeding the requested "soft limit" of 30
posts per month, and has exhibited disrespectful discourse.

I encourage Gerard to revise his approach to communicating on this list.
He will be unmoderated next month.

   A.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fwd: [discovery] Interactive Team putting work on pause

2017-02-11 Thread Rogol Domedonfors
James and others,

The question of whether the WMF ought or ought not to have a roadmap is an
interesting one, which I enourage you to debate not with me but with Wes
Moran and the other members of the WMF leadership, for whom it is an
actionable point.

My question is addressed to that leadership, and remains: Does the WMF have
such a roadmap, and if so will they publish it?

Gerard and others,

The question of whether or not to learn from the past is also an
interesting one.  My answer to Gerard's plain questions, which were "Are
you willing to argue your case as I am willing to argue mine? Are you
willing to accept that there is more than only Wikipedia and only English?"
are respectively, "Yes, and I have done so frequently" and "Yes of course".

"Rogol"

On Sat, Feb 11, 2017 at 2:48 PM, James Salsman  wrote:

> The Foundation doesn't have a product roadmap because new product goals are
> updated at least once a year; more often internally. A roadmap as described
> in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technology_roadmap is appropriate when
> long
> term plans are under centralized control and not subject to change. The WMF
> uses a variety of means to update goals frequently from all its
> stakeholders, so how would a roadmap even help?
>
>
> On Sat, Feb 11, 2017 at 7:03 AM Peter Southwood <
> peter.southw...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>
> > While we are on the subject of the meaning of words, to me a road map is
> a
> > map of the road system. Something we used before we had talking GPS to
> > navigate to unfamiliar places when travelling by car.
> > Cheers,
> > Peter
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On
> > Behalf Of Gerard Meijssen
> > Sent: Saturday, 11 February 2017 2:55 PM
> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fwd: [discovery] Interactive Team putting work
> > on pause
> >
> > Hoi,
> > Rogol... the past... whose past? When you argue that we have to learn
> from
> > the past, it is good to accept current polities of a project as an
> argument
> > but such an argument has to convince us all.
> >
> > I have experience and I dispair. I find that policies that are external
> to
> > me should be accepted by me because they are said to be "universal". I am
> > not convinced by this argument at all. If you cannot present your
> arguments
> > for our mutual setting you fail, your arguments fail.
> >
> > When you use a proverb, it is dandy but by the same token, I am not a
> > collaborator because that would-be make me a Nazi (that is my cultural
> > heritage).
> >
> > My question to you is plain. Are you willing to argue your case as I am
> > willing to argue mine? Are you willing to accept that there is more than
> > only Wikipedia and only English? Are you happy to validate your
> arguments?
> > Thanks,
> >GerardM
> >
> > Op za 11 feb. 2017 om 11:05 schreef Rogol Domedonfors <
> > domedonf...@gmail.com
> > >
> >
> > > Anna,
> > >
> > >
> > > > Sometimes I wonder if hope isn’t at the base of it all. Perhaps hope
> > > > is necessary but certainly not sufficient for it all to transpire.
> > > > Hope is
> > > not
> > > > a strategy. But maybe it's a foundation.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Certainly, but there is an old saying about "the triumph of hope over
> > > experience".  The general tenor of your comments suggest that you are
> > > less interested in learning from the past as you are planning for the
> > > future.  I merely suggest that the two go hand in hand.
> > >
> > >
> > > > [stuff]]
> > > > I don't have time to investigate this statement and work to piece
> > > together
> > > > what happened, and since I don't have that time, I will not comment
> > > > in
> > > any
> > > > way on this particular instance.
> > > >
> > >
> > > That is your decision, but it means that you will learn nothing from
> it.
> > >
> > >
> > > > Generally, I am thinking about community service training across the
> > > > organization. I would love your help with that. I can do little
> > > > about the past. I can address the future. To properly address the
> > > > future, ad hoc
> > > and
> > > > particular solution sets won't suffice. We'll need coherent and
> > > > general solution sets, with enough particulars to keep the solution
> > set honest.
> > > >
> > >
> > > I am not sure what you mean by "community service" here.  In the UK,
> > > it is a form of punishment given to young offenders for anti-social
> > > behaviour.  I assume you mean something different?
> > >
> > >
> > > >  I didn’t say that we didn’t have a Roadmap. I said that I did not
> > know.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > and extraordinarily unusual that a person at your level in the
> > > > > organisation should not know of its existence and be able to
> > > > > confirm at least whether or not it exists.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Agreed.
> > > >
> > > > One caveat: I am a Director in Talent and Culture. Please allow me
> > > > to explain. You may have 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] banner proposals

2017-02-11 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
We do not care about our own. I do acknowledge that some have other
opinions but I do not have to respect such an opinion. The proof of the
pudding is after all in the eating and we allowed this to happen, no sound
came out of our community that said otherwise.

The fact of the matter is observable. When you compare it with fake news;
please tell me what did we do? How did we show that we cared?
Thanks,
  GerardM


On 11 February 2017 at 15:47, Romaine Wiki  wrote:

> > because it has proven that we do not care about our own.
>
> Besides this is complete nonsense, that the discussion goes in this way it
> proofs we fail in being able to have a mature discussion on arguments and
> not emotions.
>
> And claiming this kind of nonsense like "we do not care about our own"
> shows a complete disrespect to those who have a different opinion.
>
> This kind of messages are the core of the problem: writing claims that are
> not supported by any evidence. Conclusion: it are fake claims, strongly
> related to the *fake news* subject of the past weeks. The thing that is
> proven is that some people in our movement spread fake information.
>
> And for clarity reasons: a friend of mine is affected. If I consider a
> banner is not suitable, would that make me then not caring? Totally not.
>
>
> 2017-02-07 8:01 GMT+01:00 Gerard Meijssen :
>
> > Hoi,
> > Credibility like quality is a two edged sword. When the suggestion is
> that
> > we lose credibility, the question is to whom and also is that not exactly
> > the point. When we take a stance or when we do not take a stance it has
> > consequences.
> >
> > The huha with no banner for Bassel has cost our community because it has
> > proven that we do not care about our own.
> > Thanks,
> >   GerardM
> >
> > On 7 February 2017 at 00:37, Romaine Wiki 
> wrote:
> >
> > > To stay short and in addition of Seddon said: The more the Wikimedia
> > > movement/WMF chooses to pick a side by using a banner above all
> projects
> > > (like Wikipedia) - calling yes/no for a strike is taking a side - the
> > more
> > > it can loose credibility. For the same reason as we do not want
> > > advertisements, we do not want to take any sides, because that can
> > directly
> > > damage Wikipedia as being neutral, as well as being independent, and
> > more.
> > > Therefore banners for advocacy are not done.
> > >
> > > The only exception of having advocacy banners is in some exceptional
> > cases
> > > where all other efforts where insufficient, and the specific
> legislation
> > > would have with implementation a direct influence on the key principles
> > of
> > > Wikipedia (or other Wikimedia project). Even in such cases there need
> to
> > be
> > > a local team that is completely informed about the situation, that is
> in
> > > direct communication with the legal department of WMF, with a common
> > > understanding between them, with a clear timeline, community approval
> (!)
> > > and even then we need to be as neutral as possible, not calling for
> > action
> > > but informing why something would directly influence Wikipedia (etc).
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > 2017-02-05 21:29 GMT+01:00 Bill Takatoshi :
> > >
> > > > In the past two days I've been four off-list messages in response to
> > > > my request for proposed banner language, all but one from James
> > > > Salsman, who I recently defended here and who was subsequently
> "placed
> > > > on moderation." I asked moderator Richard Ames whether it would be
> > > > appropriate to forward his messages, and he said they should be sent
> > > > to the moderation queue. James then sent me a BCC of a very brief
> post
> > > > yesterday, which apparently has not yet been approved. James then
> sent
> > > > me, but not the list, arguments about the merits of the various
> > > > alternatives. I don't agree with the censorship, but in deference to
> > > > the moderator I am sending these links without James's commentary:
> > > >
> > > > http://i.imgur.com/3Fb8Zrr.png
> > > >
> > > > http://www.cosmopolitan.com/politics/a8671628/national-
> > > > strike-protest-president-donald-trump/
> > > >
> > > > https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/5s6ay6/
> > activists_call_for_a_
> > > > nationwide_strike_in_protest/ddctj1h/
> > > >
> > > > https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2017/01/
> > > > 31/wheres-the-best-place-to-resist-trump-at-work/
> > > >
> > > > https://www.thenation.com/article/throw-sand-in-the-
> > gears-of-everything/
> > > >
> > > > Another respondent who asked that I not use their name suggested that
> > > > an effective campaign can be patterned after this recent success:
> > > >
> > > > http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/progressive-
> > > > activism-forces-uber-ceo-break-trump
> > > >
> > > > Could we please have banner text proposals do NOT call for a general
> > > > strike? I am not suggesting it be 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fwd: [discovery] Interactive Team putting work on pause

2017-02-11 Thread James Salsman
The Foundation doesn't have a product roadmap because new product goals are
updated at least once a year; more often internally. A roadmap as described
in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technology_roadmap is appropriate when long
term plans are under centralized control and not subject to change. The WMF
uses a variety of means to update goals frequently from all its
stakeholders, so how would a roadmap even help?


On Sat, Feb 11, 2017 at 7:03 AM Peter Southwood <
peter.southw...@telkomsa.net> wrote:

> While we are on the subject of the meaning of words, to me a road map is a
> map of the road system. Something we used before we had talking GPS to
> navigate to unfamiliar places when travelling by car.
> Cheers,
> Peter
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On
> Behalf Of Gerard Meijssen
> Sent: Saturday, 11 February 2017 2:55 PM
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fwd: [discovery] Interactive Team putting work
> on pause
>
> Hoi,
> Rogol... the past... whose past? When you argue that we have to learn from
> the past, it is good to accept current polities of a project as an argument
> but such an argument has to convince us all.
>
> I have experience and I dispair. I find that policies that are external to
> me should be accepted by me because they are said to be "universal". I am
> not convinced by this argument at all. If you cannot present your arguments
> for our mutual setting you fail, your arguments fail.
>
> When you use a proverb, it is dandy but by the same token, I am not a
> collaborator because that would-be make me a Nazi (that is my cultural
> heritage).
>
> My question to you is plain. Are you willing to argue your case as I am
> willing to argue mine? Are you willing to accept that there is more than
> only Wikipedia and only English? Are you happy to validate your arguments?
> Thanks,
>GerardM
>
> Op za 11 feb. 2017 om 11:05 schreef Rogol Domedonfors <
> domedonf...@gmail.com
> >
>
> > Anna,
> >
> >
> > > Sometimes I wonder if hope isn’t at the base of it all. Perhaps hope
> > > is necessary but certainly not sufficient for it all to transpire.
> > > Hope is
> > not
> > > a strategy. But maybe it's a foundation.
> > >
> >
> > Certainly, but there is an old saying about "the triumph of hope over
> > experience".  The general tenor of your comments suggest that you are
> > less interested in learning from the past as you are planning for the
> > future.  I merely suggest that the two go hand in hand.
> >
> >
> > > [stuff]]
> > > I don't have time to investigate this statement and work to piece
> > together
> > > what happened, and since I don't have that time, I will not comment
> > > in
> > any
> > > way on this particular instance.
> > >
> >
> > That is your decision, but it means that you will learn nothing from it.
> >
> >
> > > Generally, I am thinking about community service training across the
> > > organization. I would love your help with that. I can do little
> > > about the past. I can address the future. To properly address the
> > > future, ad hoc
> > and
> > > particular solution sets won't suffice. We'll need coherent and
> > > general solution sets, with enough particulars to keep the solution
> set honest.
> > >
> >
> > I am not sure what you mean by "community service" here.  In the UK,
> > it is a form of punishment given to young offenders for anti-social
> > behaviour.  I assume you mean something different?
> >
> >
> > >  I didn’t say that we didn’t have a Roadmap. I said that I did not
> know.
> > >
> > >
> > > > and extraordinarily unusual that a person at your level in the
> > > > organisation should not know of its existence and be able to
> > > > confirm at least whether or not it exists.
> > >
> > >
> > > Agreed.
> > >
> > > One caveat: I am a Director in Talent and Culture. Please allow me
> > > to explain. You may have noticed we’ve had some talent and culture
> > challenges
> > > as of late. I’m sure you can imagine how those challenges could keep
> > > me (one of two senior leaders in a department of 10, 5 of whom are
> > > solely dedicated to recruiting and 1 dedicated solely to employee
> > > benefits), relatively busy. Although I agree with you in principle,
> > > I’m just asking you to see how under those circumstances it could
> > > make sense that a Director in T might not be up to date on what is
> > > going on relative to Product Roadmaps.
> > >
> > > However, I am here now.
> > >
> > >
> > > > You must be aware that your answer suggests at a bare minimum the
> > > > possibility that you, as an officer of the WMF, are evading the
> > question.
> > > >
> > >
> > > That possibility genuinely never occurred to me. Evading the
> > > question? Quite the contrary, Rogol. I have answered in the most
> > > exposing and real way possible. I have said, "I don’t know", on a
> > > public mailing list. Talk about a total lack of spin!  I think that
> > > is in the 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] banner proposals

2017-02-11 Thread Romaine Wiki
> because it has proven that we do not care about our own.

Besides this is complete nonsense, that the discussion goes in this way it
proofs we fail in being able to have a mature discussion on arguments and
not emotions.

And claiming this kind of nonsense like "we do not care about our own"
shows a complete disrespect to those who have a different opinion.

This kind of messages are the core of the problem: writing claims that are
not supported by any evidence. Conclusion: it are fake claims, strongly
related to the *fake news* subject of the past weeks. The thing that is
proven is that some people in our movement spread fake information.

And for clarity reasons: a friend of mine is affected. If I consider a
banner is not suitable, would that make me then not caring? Totally not.


2017-02-07 8:01 GMT+01:00 Gerard Meijssen :

> Hoi,
> Credibility like quality is a two edged sword. When the suggestion is that
> we lose credibility, the question is to whom and also is that not exactly
> the point. When we take a stance or when we do not take a stance it has
> consequences.
>
> The huha with no banner for Bassel has cost our community because it has
> proven that we do not care about our own.
> Thanks,
>   GerardM
>
> On 7 February 2017 at 00:37, Romaine Wiki  wrote:
>
> > To stay short and in addition of Seddon said: The more the Wikimedia
> > movement/WMF chooses to pick a side by using a banner above all projects
> > (like Wikipedia) - calling yes/no for a strike is taking a side - the
> more
> > it can loose credibility. For the same reason as we do not want
> > advertisements, we do not want to take any sides, because that can
> directly
> > damage Wikipedia as being neutral, as well as being independent, and
> more.
> > Therefore banners for advocacy are not done.
> >
> > The only exception of having advocacy banners is in some exceptional
> cases
> > where all other efforts where insufficient, and the specific legislation
> > would have with implementation a direct influence on the key principles
> of
> > Wikipedia (or other Wikimedia project). Even in such cases there need to
> be
> > a local team that is completely informed about the situation, that is in
> > direct communication with the legal department of WMF, with a common
> > understanding between them, with a clear timeline, community approval (!)
> > and even then we need to be as neutral as possible, not calling for
> action
> > but informing why something would directly influence Wikipedia (etc).
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 2017-02-05 21:29 GMT+01:00 Bill Takatoshi :
> >
> > > In the past two days I've been four off-list messages in response to
> > > my request for proposed banner language, all but one from James
> > > Salsman, who I recently defended here and who was subsequently "placed
> > > on moderation." I asked moderator Richard Ames whether it would be
> > > appropriate to forward his messages, and he said they should be sent
> > > to the moderation queue. James then sent me a BCC of a very brief post
> > > yesterday, which apparently has not yet been approved. James then sent
> > > me, but not the list, arguments about the merits of the various
> > > alternatives. I don't agree with the censorship, but in deference to
> > > the moderator I am sending these links without James's commentary:
> > >
> > > http://i.imgur.com/3Fb8Zrr.png
> > >
> > > http://www.cosmopolitan.com/politics/a8671628/national-
> > > strike-protest-president-donald-trump/
> > >
> > > https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/5s6ay6/
> activists_call_for_a_
> > > nationwide_strike_in_protest/ddctj1h/
> > >
> > > https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2017/01/
> > > 31/wheres-the-best-place-to-resist-trump-at-work/
> > >
> > > https://www.thenation.com/article/throw-sand-in-the-
> gears-of-everything/
> > >
> > > Another respondent who asked that I not use their name suggested that
> > > an effective campaign can be patterned after this recent success:
> > >
> > > http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/progressive-
> > > activism-forces-uber-ceo-break-trump
> > >
> > > Could we please have banner text proposals do NOT call for a general
> > > strike? I am not suggesting it be ruled out, nor am I suggesting that
> > > we not join the call. I am simply asking for discussion in the middle
> > > ground.
> > >
> > > -Will
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > 
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fwd: [discovery] Interactive Team putting work on pause

2017-02-11 Thread Peter Southwood
While we are on the subject of the meaning of words, to me a road map is a map 
of the road system. Something we used before we had talking GPS to navigate to 
unfamiliar places when travelling by car.
Cheers,
Peter

-Original Message-
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of 
Gerard Meijssen
Sent: Saturday, 11 February 2017 2:55 PM
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fwd: [discovery] Interactive Team putting work on 
pause

Hoi,
Rogol... the past... whose past? When you argue that we have to learn from the 
past, it is good to accept current polities of a project as an argument but 
such an argument has to convince us all.

I have experience and I dispair. I find that policies that are external to me 
should be accepted by me because they are said to be "universal". I am not 
convinced by this argument at all. If you cannot present your arguments for our 
mutual setting you fail, your arguments fail.

When you use a proverb, it is dandy but by the same token, I am not a 
collaborator because that would-be make me a Nazi (that is my cultural 
heritage).

My question to you is plain. Are you willing to argue your case as I am willing 
to argue mine? Are you willing to accept that there is more than only Wikipedia 
and only English? Are you happy to validate your arguments?
Thanks,
   GerardM

Op za 11 feb. 2017 om 11:05 schreef Rogol Domedonfors 

> Anna,
>
>
> > Sometimes I wonder if hope isn’t at the base of it all. Perhaps hope 
> > is necessary but certainly not sufficient for it all to transpire. 
> > Hope is
> not
> > a strategy. But maybe it's a foundation.
> >
>
> Certainly, but there is an old saying about "the triumph of hope over 
> experience".  The general tenor of your comments suggest that you are 
> less interested in learning from the past as you are planning for the 
> future.  I merely suggest that the two go hand in hand.
>
>
> > [stuff]]
> > I don't have time to investigate this statement and work to piece
> together
> > what happened, and since I don't have that time, I will not comment 
> > in
> any
> > way on this particular instance.
> >
>
> That is your decision, but it means that you will learn nothing from it.
>
>
> > Generally, I am thinking about community service training across the 
> > organization. I would love your help with that. I can do little 
> > about the past. I can address the future. To properly address the 
> > future, ad hoc
> and
> > particular solution sets won't suffice. We'll need coherent and 
> > general solution sets, with enough particulars to keep the solution set 
> > honest.
> >
>
> I am not sure what you mean by "community service" here.  In the UK, 
> it is a form of punishment given to young offenders for anti-social 
> behaviour.  I assume you mean something different?
>
>
> >  I didn’t say that we didn’t have a Roadmap. I said that I did not know.
> >
> >
> > > and extraordinarily unusual that a person at your level in the 
> > > organisation should not know of its existence and be able to 
> > > confirm at least whether or not it exists.
> >
> >
> > Agreed.
> >
> > One caveat: I am a Director in Talent and Culture. Please allow me 
> > to explain. You may have noticed we’ve had some talent and culture
> challenges
> > as of late. I’m sure you can imagine how those challenges could keep 
> > me (one of two senior leaders in a department of 10, 5 of whom are 
> > solely dedicated to recruiting and 1 dedicated solely to employee 
> > benefits), relatively busy. Although I agree with you in principle, 
> > I’m just asking you to see how under those circumstances it could 
> > make sense that a Director in T might not be up to date on what is 
> > going on relative to Product Roadmaps.
> >
> > However, I am here now.
> >
> >
> > > You must be aware that your answer suggests at a bare minimum the 
> > > possibility that you, as an officer of the WMF, are evading the
> question.
> > >
> >
> > That possibility genuinely never occurred to me. Evading the 
> > question? Quite the contrary, Rogol. I have answered in the most 
> > exposing and real way possible. I have said, "I don’t know", on a 
> > public mailing list. Talk about a total lack of spin!  I think that 
> > is in the Wharton-Business-School 
> >  > ?gclid=CMGp9YTnhtICFURqfgod_AYI_g=NAM_BRAND_id=WFbx
> > 6wAAAN1GRt7g:20170211003858:s>-what-not-to-do
> > manual... admit that you don't know something in public.
> >
>
> The underlying quesrion, as was sure you would have recognised, is not 
> "Do you Anna Stillwell happen to know whether or not the WMF has a 
> technical roadmap ..." but "Does the WMF have a technical roadmap and 
> if so please will the WMF publish it."  Perhaps I failed to make that 
> clear, and you were assuming I was asking a more personally specific 
> but significantly less useful version.  My long-standing question, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fwd: [discovery] Interactive Team putting work on pause

2017-02-11 Thread Peter Southwood
Good answer.
Cheers,
Peter

-Original Message-
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of 
Anna Stillwell
Sent: Saturday, 11 February 2017 3:34 AM
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fwd: [discovery] Interactive Team putting work on 
pause

On Sun, Feb 5, 2017 at 10:03 AM, Rogol Domedonfors 
wrote:

> Anna,
>
>
> > As you may have noticed, threaded discussions become difficult for 
> > me to visually navigate after a while. Thus, the color.
> >
>
> Sorry, colour doesn't come through on the mailing list.
>

Thank you for explaining that. I appreciate you teaching me the rules.
After I posted, I also had a number of wiki elves simultaneously ping me on a 
number of different channels to let me know the very same thing. A bunch of 
gardeners just tending to the commons. It was delightful. It felt like an 
entrance into a different world. I was wondering when the hobbits would show up 
with second breakfast and above all: ale. I want some ale.

>
>
> > Call me naive, but I’m excited by the prospect of the movement 
> > strategy 
> > . 
> > I
> know
> > that many other things will need to happen to arrive at the state 
> > that
> you
> > speak of, but thinking together at that scale is likely a good start 
> > in
> my
> > mind.  It might even be a necessary but insufficient pre-requisite 
> > for
> the
> > kind of collaboration you speak of.
> >
>
>
> Let us hope that it does what is both necessary and sufficient.
>

Yes.

Sometimes I wonder if hope isn’t at the base of it all. Perhaps hope is 
necessary but certainly not sufficient for it all to transpire. Hope is not a 
strategy. But maybe it's a foundation.

Besides, I could use some. Hope, that is. It’s looking bleak out there.
It’s tough to wake up in the middle of your life and realize that it looks like 
most of the world thinks a regression back to nationalism and censorship and 
white, straight power is a good idea. Not as tough as needing knowledge and 
food and health every single day and not having access to it, but tough in a 
Maslow’s-hierarchy-kinda-way.  There is so much work to do on so many fronts.

I wake up thinking about and feeling unsure about the future.


> > The current notion being instantiated in the proposed Technical
> guidelines
> > > is very much about a wise and benevolent Foundation steering its 
> > > ideas through a reluctant community.  That is frankly insufficient.
> > >
> >
> > Would you direct me to those Technical guidelines? I don’t know the 
> > reference and I should.
> >
>
> They are at https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Technical_Collaboration_
> Guidance
> which is currently under discussion.  This appears to be a successor 
> project to https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/WMF_product_development_
> process/Communities which is described as stalled.
>

Thank you. I have not yet read these because I spent a lot of time this week 
clarifying Joady’s and my role with KM and JL. We all wanted clarity on which 
problems we were solving and which ones we were not. My JD is at the end of the 
email if you would like that clarity as well.

>
>

> > >
> > > >
> > > > Maybe not. But if it could strike a deeper cord around 
> > > > transparency,
> I
> > > > wanted to show up for that conversation. Talk openly. Let people 
> > > > know
> > > that
> > > > we are listening, that we believe in transparency… that’s why we 
> > > > all
> > > fought
> > > > for it.
> > > >
> > > > To be clear, I have no sense whether it did strike a cord around 
> > > > transparency, but I enjoyed the conversation nevertheless.
> > > >
> > >
> > > My experience of the Foundations notion of Transparency has been 
> > > patchy
> > at
> > > lest -- and that's a polite way of saying breathtakingly awful.
> >
> >
> > That good? All jokes aside, I take this very seriously. I’d like to 
> > hear your notion of transparency, but first I’ll offer this one that 
> > I
> recently
> > heard because I have the sense that it will resonate with you. We're 
> > in
> the
> > final stages of an org-wide conversation on our values 
> > . We 
> > invited some current and former community-selected board members as 
> > well
> as
> > volunteers beyond the board to these conversations.  I enjoyed them 
> > very much.
> >
> > Normally, I would attribute this quote, but these conversations were 
> > anonymized, so I don’t have permission to reveal my brilliant source.
> They
> > talked about how transparency was likely not the right word for what 
> > they really wanted. They wanted a way to join in. They wanted to 
> > know where
> they
> > could plug in. Is that a notion of “maybe more than transparency" 
> > that resonates with you?
> >
> > That’s the problem that I’m chewing on. And so your ideas around 
> > collaboration are interesting to me. So I’m thinking about 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fwd: [discovery] Interactive Team putting work on pause

2017-02-11 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
Rogol... the past... whose past? When you argue that we have to learn from
the past, it is good to accept current polities of a project as an argument
but such an argument has to convince us all.

I have experience and I dispair. I find that policies that are external to
me should be accepted by me because they are said to be "universal". I am
not convinced by this argument at all. If you cannot present your arguments
for our mutual setting you fail, your arguments fail.

When you use a proverb, it is dandy but by the same token, I am not a
collaborator because that would-be make me a Nazi (that is my cultural
heritage).

My question to you is plain. Are you willing to argue your case as I am
willing to argue mine? Are you willing to accept that there is more than
only Wikipedia and only English? Are you happy to validate your arguments?
Thanks,
   GerardM

Op za 11 feb. 2017 om 11:05 schreef Rogol Domedonfors 

> Anna,
>
>
> > Sometimes I wonder if hope isn’t at the base of it all. Perhaps hope is
> > necessary but certainly not sufficient for it all to transpire. Hope is
> not
> > a strategy. But maybe it's a foundation.
> >
>
> Certainly, but there is an old saying about "the triumph of hope over
> experience".  The general tenor of your comments suggest that you are less
> interested in learning from the past as you are planning for the future.  I
> merely suggest that the two go hand in hand.
>
>
> > [stuff]]
> > I don't have time to investigate this statement and work to piece
> together
> > what happened, and since I don't have that time, I will not comment in
> any
> > way on this particular instance.
> >
>
> That is your decision, but it means that you will learn nothing from it.
>
>
> > Generally, I am thinking about community service training across the
> > organization. I would love your help with that. I can do little about the
> > past. I can address the future. To properly address the future, ad hoc
> and
> > particular solution sets won't suffice. We'll need coherent and general
> > solution sets, with enough particulars to keep the solution set honest.
> >
>
> I am not sure what you mean by "community service" here.  In the UK, it is
> a form of punishment given to young offenders for anti-social behaviour.  I
> assume you mean something different?
>
>
> >  I didn’t say that we didn’t have a Roadmap. I said that I did not know.
> >
> >
> > > and extraordinarily unusual that a person at your level in the
> > > organisation should not know of its existence and be able to confirm at
> > > least whether or not it exists.
> >
> >
> > Agreed.
> >
> > One caveat: I am a Director in Talent and Culture. Please allow me to
> > explain. You may have noticed we’ve had some talent and culture
> challenges
> > as of late. I’m sure you can imagine how those challenges could keep me
> > (one of two senior leaders in a department of 10, 5 of whom are solely
> > dedicated to recruiting and 1 dedicated solely to employee benefits),
> > relatively busy. Although I agree with you in principle, I’m just asking
> > you to see how under those circumstances it could make sense that a
> > Director in T might not be up to date on what is going on relative to
> > Product Roadmaps.
> >
> > However, I am here now.
> >
> >
> > > You must be aware that your answer suggests at a bare minimum the
> > > possibility that you, as an officer of the WMF, are evading the
> question.
> > >
> >
> > That possibility genuinely never occurred to me. Evading the
> > question? Quite the contrary, Rogol. I have answered in the most exposing
> > and real way possible. I have said, "I don’t know", on a public mailing
> > list. Talk about a total lack of spin!  I think that is in the
> > Wharton-Business-School
> >  > ?gclid=CMGp9YTnhtICFURqfgod_AYI_g=NAM_BRAND_id=WFbx
> > 6wAAAN1GRt7g:20170211003858:s>-what-not-to-do
> > manual... admit that you don't know something in public.
> >
>
> The underlying quesrion, as was sure you would have recognised, is not "Do
> you Anna Stillwell happen to know whether or not the WMF has a technical
> roadmap ..." but "Does the WMF have a technical roadmap and if so please
> will the WMF publish it."  Perhaps I failed to make that clear, and you
> were assuming I was asking a more personally specific but significantly
> less useful version.  My long-standing question, then, remains unanswered:
>
> *Does the WMF have a technical roadmap and if so please will the WMF
> publish it.*
>
>
> > If I may be so bold, it seems that your interpretation of my words lacks
> > even basic faith. It seems to be the penultimate worst possible
> > interpretation (the worst being lying, the second... evading).
> >
>
> I can only go by what I see as a pesistent refusal to address this issue
> over many weeks by multiple members of the WMF staff.
>
>
> > But your nearly automatic interpretation may point to a deeper issue. I
> > 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fwd: [discovery] Interactive Team putting work on pause

2017-02-11 Thread Jane Darnell
To understand Hoi you first need to get yourself some stroopwafels to go
with your coffee

On Sat, Feb 11, 2017 at 9:50 AM, Anna Stillwell 
wrote:

> On Fri, Feb 10, 2017 at 11:52 PM, Gerard Meijssen <
> gerard.meijs...@gmail.com
> > wrote:
>
> > Hoi,
> > Anna I absolutely loved what you write.
>
>
> Gerard, I'm feeling the love, dude.
> (A fellow co-worker and I were talking the other day and she said that she
> even calls inanimate objects dude. I deeply resonated. So "dude" for us is
> not a gendered pronoun.)
>
>
> > It is very much uplifting to see
> > that you want to move forward and want to do this based on the facts on
> > the ground
>
>
> Yes. Keep in mind that *we will make mistakes*. A lot of them. I promise
> you. I'm probably making one right now.
>
>
> > and not so much on our convoluted history that is spread out so much that
> > even someone like me who has been involved for the longest time has given
> > up on yesterdays arguments.
> >
>
> I agree with this statement. We need to build relationships for the future.
>
> And, "Rogol" wasn't talking about the past. He was inquiring about a
> product roadmap, which is all about the future. And his questions were
> fair.
>
> >
> > Some will say but.. but ... and from their position they may be right.
> They
> > forget that there are over 280 languages, more in the pipe line and even
> > more projects and as it is we do not consider this at all. English
> > Wikipedia is less than 50% and as Asaf said in a recent presentation less
> > than 50% of the people in this world have English as a first or second
> > language. Arguments from the past mean that the diversity we are is less
> > important than the incumbency of the present talking heads.
> >
>
> Yes. Think of all of the places we could go and things we could do.
> Remember to offer your important ideas in the movement strategy
> conversation. It's about a strategic direction, a theme for the next 15
> years. A general layer of meaning that sits right below the vision and
> describes the theme of the next 15 years. Might that not help coalesce our
> efforts?
>
> >
> > When arguments are based in the past, the reality check if the arguments
> > still fit the present is typically left out. When arguments are of high
> > quality, they should still convince and do not need to consider their
> > legacy.
> >
>
> I often forget to reality check if an argument still fits. Good reminder
> for me. It would be so much easier if reality would just let us make up our
> minds once and for all. lol.
>
>
> Thanks,
> >GerardM
> >
>
> p.s. I know this may sound really ignorant, but what does "Hoi" mean?
> That's how you've started every email that I can ever remember.
>
>
> > On 11 February 2017 at 02:34, Anna Stillwell 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > On Sun, Feb 5, 2017 at 10:03 AM, Rogol Domedonfors <
> > domedonf...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Anna,
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > As you may have noticed, threaded discussions become difficult for
> me
> > > to
> > > > > visually navigate after a while. Thus, the color.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Sorry, colour doesn't come through on the mailing list.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Thank you for explaining that. I appreciate you teaching me the rules.
> > > After I posted, I also had a number of wiki elves simultaneously ping
> me
> > on
> > > a number of different channels to let me know the very same thing. A
> > bunch
> > > of gardeners just tending to the commons. It was delightful. It felt
> like
> > > an entrance into a different world. I was wondering when the hobbits
> > would
> > > show up with second breakfast and above all: ale. I want some ale.
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Call me naive, but I’m excited by the prospect of the movement
> > strategy
> > > > >  >.
> > I
> > > > know
> > > > > that many other things will need to happen to arrive at the state
> > that
> > > > you
> > > > > speak of, but thinking together at that scale is likely a good
> start
> > in
> > > > my
> > > > > mind.  It might even be a necessary but insufficient pre-requisite
> > for
> > > > the
> > > > > kind of collaboration you speak of.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Let us hope that it does what is both necessary and sufficient.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Yes.
> > >
> > > Sometimes I wonder if hope isn’t at the base of it all. Perhaps hope is
> > > necessary but certainly not sufficient for it all to transpire. Hope is
> > not
> > > a strategy. But maybe it's a foundation.
> > >
> > > Besides, I could use some. Hope, that is. It’s looking bleak out there.
> > > It’s tough to wake up in the middle of your life and realize that it
> > looks
> > > like most of the world thinks a regression back to nationalism and
> > > censorship and white, straight power is a good idea. Not as tough as
> > > needing knowledge and food and health every single day and not having
> > 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fwd: [discovery] Interactive Team putting work on pause

2017-02-11 Thread Rogol Domedonfors
Anna,


> Sometimes I wonder if hope isn’t at the base of it all. Perhaps hope is
> necessary but certainly not sufficient for it all to transpire. Hope is not
> a strategy. But maybe it's a foundation.
>

Certainly, but there is an old saying about "the triumph of hope over
experience".  The general tenor of your comments suggest that you are less
interested in learning from the past as you are planning for the future.  I
merely suggest that the two go hand in hand.


> [stuff]]
> I don't have time to investigate this statement and work to piece together
> what happened, and since I don't have that time, I will not comment in any
> way on this particular instance.
>

That is your decision, but it means that you will learn nothing from it.


> Generally, I am thinking about community service training across the
> organization. I would love your help with that. I can do little about the
> past. I can address the future. To properly address the future, ad hoc and
> particular solution sets won't suffice. We'll need coherent and general
> solution sets, with enough particulars to keep the solution set honest.
>

I am not sure what you mean by "community service" here.  In the UK, it is
a form of punishment given to young offenders for anti-social behaviour.  I
assume you mean something different?


>  I didn’t say that we didn’t have a Roadmap. I said that I did not know.
>
>
> > and extraordinarily unusual that a person at your level in the
> > organisation should not know of its existence and be able to confirm at
> > least whether or not it exists.
>
>
> Agreed.
>
> One caveat: I am a Director in Talent and Culture. Please allow me to
> explain. You may have noticed we’ve had some talent and culture challenges
> as of late. I’m sure you can imagine how those challenges could keep me
> (one of two senior leaders in a department of 10, 5 of whom are solely
> dedicated to recruiting and 1 dedicated solely to employee benefits),
> relatively busy. Although I agree with you in principle, I’m just asking
> you to see how under those circumstances it could make sense that a
> Director in T might not be up to date on what is going on relative to
> Product Roadmaps.
>
> However, I am here now.
>
>
> > You must be aware that your answer suggests at a bare minimum the
> > possibility that you, as an officer of the WMF, are evading the question.
> >
>
> That possibility genuinely never occurred to me. Evading the
> question? Quite the contrary, Rogol. I have answered in the most exposing
> and real way possible. I have said, "I don’t know", on a public mailing
> list. Talk about a total lack of spin!  I think that is in the
> Wharton-Business-School
>  ?gclid=CMGp9YTnhtICFURqfgod_AYI_g=NAM_BRAND_id=WFbx
> 6wAAAN1GRt7g:20170211003858:s>-what-not-to-do
> manual... admit that you don't know something in public.
>

The underlying quesrion, as was sure you would have recognised, is not "Do
you Anna Stillwell happen to know whether or not the WMF has a technical
roadmap ..." but "Does the WMF have a technical roadmap and if so please
will the WMF publish it."  Perhaps I failed to make that clear, and you
were assuming I was asking a more personally specific but significantly
less useful version.  My long-standing question, then, remains unanswered:

*Does the WMF have a technical roadmap and if so please will the WMF
publish it.*


> If I may be so bold, it seems that your interpretation of my words lacks
> even basic faith. It seems to be the penultimate worst possible
> interpretation (the worst being lying, the second... evading).
>

I can only go by what I see as a pesistent refusal to address this issue
over many weeks by multiple members of the WMF staff.


> But your nearly automatic interpretation may point to a deeper issue. I
> hear you saying that you don't take me at my word. That you may not take us
> at our word. And I imagine that we have done some things to earn your
> distrust. I hear you.
>
> But I assure you that I am telling you the truth now: I do not know.
>

Do you propose to take any steps to find out?  If you do, please will you
let the community know?


> Ok. How do you pronounce your fictitious name? I asked around, “Hey, how do
> you pronounce Rogol’s fictitious name”? Everyone pronounced it differently.
> Some had a hard g. Some had a soft one. Some placed emphasis on the first
> syllable. Some on the second.
>
> I couldn’t stop laughing. I said to them, “But he’s made up…. how can you
> be *so sure*?”
>

Philippe Beaudette pronounced it acceptably it in the July 2015 Metrics
Meeting, see, or rather listen to,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXWNGEht9lU=youtu.be

"Rogol"
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fwd: [discovery] Interactive Team putting work on pause

2017-02-11 Thread Anna Stillwell
On Fri, Feb 10, 2017 at 11:52 PM, Gerard Meijssen  wrote:

> Hoi,
> Anna I absolutely loved what you write.


Gerard, I'm feeling the love, dude.
(A fellow co-worker and I were talking the other day and she said that she
even calls inanimate objects dude. I deeply resonated. So "dude" for us is
not a gendered pronoun.)


> It is very much uplifting to see
> that you want to move forward and want to do this based on the facts on
> the ground


Yes. Keep in mind that *we will make mistakes*. A lot of them. I promise
you. I'm probably making one right now.


> and not so much on our convoluted history that is spread out so much that
> even someone like me who has been involved for the longest time has given
> up on yesterdays arguments.
>

I agree with this statement. We need to build relationships for the future.

And, "Rogol" wasn't talking about the past. He was inquiring about a
product roadmap, which is all about the future. And his questions were
fair.

>
> Some will say but.. but ... and from their position they may be right. They
> forget that there are over 280 languages, more in the pipe line and even
> more projects and as it is we do not consider this at all. English
> Wikipedia is less than 50% and as Asaf said in a recent presentation less
> than 50% of the people in this world have English as a first or second
> language. Arguments from the past mean that the diversity we are is less
> important than the incumbency of the present talking heads.
>

Yes. Think of all of the places we could go and things we could do.
Remember to offer your important ideas in the movement strategy
conversation. It's about a strategic direction, a theme for the next 15
years. A general layer of meaning that sits right below the vision and
describes the theme of the next 15 years. Might that not help coalesce our
efforts?

>
> When arguments are based in the past, the reality check if the arguments
> still fit the present is typically left out. When arguments are of high
> quality, they should still convince and do not need to consider their
> legacy.
>

I often forget to reality check if an argument still fits. Good reminder
for me. It would be so much easier if reality would just let us make up our
minds once and for all. lol.


Thanks,
>GerardM
>

p.s. I know this may sound really ignorant, but what does "Hoi" mean?
That's how you've started every email that I can ever remember.


> On 11 February 2017 at 02:34, Anna Stillwell 
> wrote:
>
> > On Sun, Feb 5, 2017 at 10:03 AM, Rogol Domedonfors <
> domedonf...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Anna,
> > >
> > >
> > > > As you may have noticed, threaded discussions become difficult for me
> > to
> > > > visually navigate after a while. Thus, the color.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Sorry, colour doesn't come through on the mailing list.
> > >
> >
> > Thank you for explaining that. I appreciate you teaching me the rules.
> > After I posted, I also had a number of wiki elves simultaneously ping me
> on
> > a number of different channels to let me know the very same thing. A
> bunch
> > of gardeners just tending to the commons. It was delightful. It felt like
> > an entrance into a different world. I was wondering when the hobbits
> would
> > show up with second breakfast and above all: ale. I want some ale.
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > > Call me naive, but I’m excited by the prospect of the movement
> strategy
> > > > .
> I
> > > know
> > > > that many other things will need to happen to arrive at the state
> that
> > > you
> > > > speak of, but thinking together at that scale is likely a good start
> in
> > > my
> > > > mind.  It might even be a necessary but insufficient pre-requisite
> for
> > > the
> > > > kind of collaboration you speak of.
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Let us hope that it does what is both necessary and sufficient.
> > >
> >
> > Yes.
> >
> > Sometimes I wonder if hope isn’t at the base of it all. Perhaps hope is
> > necessary but certainly not sufficient for it all to transpire. Hope is
> not
> > a strategy. But maybe it's a foundation.
> >
> > Besides, I could use some. Hope, that is. It’s looking bleak out there.
> > It’s tough to wake up in the middle of your life and realize that it
> looks
> > like most of the world thinks a regression back to nationalism and
> > censorship and white, straight power is a good idea. Not as tough as
> > needing knowledge and food and health every single day and not having
> > access to it, but tough in a Maslow’s-hierarchy-kinda-way.  There is so
> > much work to do on so many fronts.
> >
> > I wake up thinking about and feeling unsure about the future.
> >
> >
> > > > The current notion being instantiated in the proposed Technical
> > > guidelines
> > > > > is very much about a wise and benevolent Foundation steering its
> > ideas
> > > > > through a reluctant community.  That is frankly insufficient.
> >