Rogol, Hello. I am close to having some clarity to share. Might I extend to mid April?
/a On Sun, Feb 12, 2017 at 1:34 PM, Anna Stillwell <astillw...@wikimedia.org> wrote: > > > On Sun, Feb 12, 2017 at 12:52 PM, Rogol Domedonfors <domedonf...@gmail.com > > wrote: > >> Anna, >> >> >> > > > Generally, I am thinking about community service training across the >> > >> > > organization. I would love your help with that. I can do little about >> > the >> > > > past. I can address the future. To properly address the future, ad >> hoc >> > > and >> > > > particular solution sets won't suffice. We'll need coherent and >> general >> > > > solution sets, with enough particulars to keep the solution set >> honest. >> > > > >> > > >> > > I am not sure what you mean by "community service" here. In the UK, >> it >> > is >> > > a form of punishment given to young offenders for anti-social >> > behaviour. I >> > > assume you mean something different? >> > > >> > >> > I definitely mean something different. Thank you for the opportunity to >> > clarify. How do we engage staff in learning to interact with our >> > communities? Where are ideal opportunities for exchange (e.g., the best >> > places to collaborate) and where is collaboration least valuable, >> > potentially even disruptive? I have no answers yet. >> > >> >> I had a discussion on these matters, as I recall, with Rachel di Cerbo at >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Community_Liaisons/Wikimania_2015 >> which may provide you with some background. I suggested some ideas about >> centralisation of discussions, machine-assisted tranlsation and other >> process-oriented points. > > > I will do a broad lit review when and if the time comes (on and off wiki). > If I do so, I will follow these links and read about this as part of that > broader lit review. > > >> Pulling back to a more cultural point, I woud >> identify three aspects that you might address. >> >> Staff must actually want to engage, to co-create and to acknowledge that >> the community is a partner in the entire enterprise. > > > Agreed. No argument. > > But I'd like to expand your argument. I would like to add a perspective, > not subtract from yours. Our current communities are very seriously > important partners in the entire enterprise, as we are theirs. These days, > I am also thinking about future communities... new readers and new editors > in new geographies on new devices, and reading the thoughts of experts on > the evolution of platforms within the context of the evolving web. > > I am also curious about the role of machines. Will they become an > important partner? I know that they say we will welcome our robot > overlords. But I am more interested in collaborating with them. Why can't > humans and machines collaborate toward social/educational goods? > > Machine learning is all the rage these days. But to what end? The > standard, for-profit, big data play is to harvest and bottom feed a ton of > data, run it through a layered algorithm, and spit out "something > something" to a customer for a fee. I think they call it insight. I have a > different definition of insight. But hey, to each their own. > > We don't have customers and we don't bottom feed. Two things I am proud > of. That is why I was so excited about ORES. An open, ethical, effective > AI for social impact that currently helps vandal fighters > <https://www.technologyreview.com/s/544036/artificial-intelligence-aims-to-make-wikipedia-friendlier-and-better/>. > More importantly, it may help with the > "revert-new-editors’-first-few-edits-and-alienate-them > problem". That's just the current capabilities of this platform. > > My broader point being that I also want to think of the new stakeholders > that will join us all and how we can prepare for and welcome them into the > knowledge creating endeavor. > > >> Of course the >> community is not homogenous and the balance of work and responsibility is >> not identically equal in every single aspect of the enterprise. >> Nonetheless, the model of an active staff supporting and directing a >> passive community is both factually wrong and will inevitably lead to >> disaster. >> > > I understand your point. > >> >> One misundertood word is representation. I believe that some staff >> members >> believe that they can represent the community simply by having been >> volunteers in the past, and even that they can timeshare between their >> staff and volunteer identities. This is so far from true that it only >> needs to be articulated to be seen as incorrect – indeed, the attempt to >> split their identities may be positively dangerous to their psychological >> well-being. The notion that only those with Wikimedia project experience >> should be hired, and that having hired such people they need no further >> contact with the community is utterly disastrous. Those with community >> engagement responsibilities must engage, actively, and in a genuine spirit >> of enquiry. It is not an unnecessary overhead on getting their work done, >> it is their work. >> > > I don't know what staff members believe. I will investigate this when and > if I arrive at that stage of problem solving. I understand your point. > >> >> Genuine interaction on planning does not mean asking a few closed >> questions of a few community members about which of a few predetermined >> options they prefer. It means doing a lot of work and being genuinely >> transparent. It also requires internal coordination of a kind which I do >> not always detect within the WMF. >> > > Point taken. > >> >> I will look into this. I will seek to understand the Tech position on >> three >> > questions: >> > >> > - What do we philosophically believe: to roadmap or not to roadmap? >> > - What do we currently have in terms of planning? >> > - Will that change? >> > >> > I’ll get back to you. It may take me until the beginning of April. It >> may >> > be sooner, but I can’t promise anything sooner. >> > >> >> Thank you. >> > > Thank you for so graciously accepting my time constraints. I really do > appreciate it. I don't want to let you down, but I also want to sleep and > tend to my core responsibilities. > > I received another email from another lovely wiki elf explaining to me that >> > it could be seen as though I were making fun of your fictitious name. >> If it >> > came across that way, I really do apologize. That was not my intention. >> I >> > was not laughing at your name. What I found funny was that people had a >> > series of pronunciations that were different and yet they were all sure >> > that they were correct. >> > >> >> I am not at all bothered but thank you for your consideration. >> > > Smiley face. > >> >> "Rogol" >> >> On Sun, Feb 12, 2017 at 7:46 PM, Anna Stillwell <astillw...@wikimedia.org >> > >> wrote: >> >> > Hello Rogol, >> > >> > On Sat, Feb 11, 2017 at 2:04 AM, Rogol Domedonfors < >> domedonf...@gmail.com> >> > wrote: >> > >> > > Anna, >> > > >> > > >> > > > Sometimes I wonder if hope isn’t at the base of it all. Perhaps >> hope is >> > > > necessary but certainly not sufficient for it all to transpire. >> Hope is >> > > not >> > > > a strategy. But maybe it's a foundation. >> > > > >> > > >> > > Certainly, but there is an old saying about "the triumph of hope over >> > > experience". The general tenor of your comments suggest that you are >> > less >> > > interested in learning from the past as you are planning for the >> > future. I >> > > merely suggest that the two go hand in hand. >> > > >> > >> > I agree with your suggestion that they go hand in hand. I think perhaps >> I >> > solve problems differently than you and I come to this conversation >> from a >> > slightly different angle. I have a question on my mind, how do we build >> an >> > org and a culture for the future? I’m scanning my environment to see >> what I >> > hear, what people are talking about. I’m reading a lot. Entertaining >> many >> > ideas. Given what I am hear, read and my specific role, where should I >> > focus? I am still ascertaining which issues I might take on. >> > >> > Specifics, including past successes and errors, would be something that >> I >> > would investigate at a later stage. Your information is relevant to me, >> > just not at this stage. >> > >> > What I said was, >> > > "I can do little about the past. I can address the future. To properly >> > address the future, ad hoc and particular solution sets won't suffice. >> > We'll need coherent and general solution sets, with enough particulars >> to >> > keep the solution set honest." >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > > [stuff]] >> > > > I don't have time to investigate this statement and work to piece >> > > together >> > > > what happened, and since I don't have that time, I will not comment >> in >> > > any >> > > > way on this particular instance. >> > > > >> > > >> > > That is your decision, but it means that you will learn nothing from >> it. >> > > >> > >> > You have such a gentle touch. :) >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > > Generally, I am thinking about community service training across the >> > > > organization. I would love your help with that. I can do little >> about >> > the >> > > > past. I can address the future. To properly address the future, ad >> hoc >> > > and >> > > > particular solution sets won't suffice. We'll need coherent and >> general >> > > > solution sets, with enough particulars to keep the solution set >> honest. >> > > > >> > > >> > > I am not sure what you mean by "community service" here. In the UK, >> it >> > is >> > > a form of punishment given to young offenders for anti-social >> > behaviour. I >> > > assume you mean something different? >> > > >> > >> > I definitely mean something different. Thank you for the opportunity to >> > clarify. How do we engage staff in learning to interact with our >> > communities? Where are ideal opportunities for exchange (e.g., the best >> > places to collaborate) and where is collaboration least valuable, >> > potentially even disruptive? I have no answers yet. >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > The underlying quesrion, as was sure you would have recognised, is not >> > "Do >> > > you Anna Stillwell happen to know whether or not the WMF has a >> technical >> > > roadmap ..." but "Does the WMF have a technical roadmap and if so >> please >> > > will the WMF publish it." Perhaps I failed to make that clear, and >> you >> > > were assuming I was asking a more personally specific but >> significantly >> > > less useful version. My long-standing question, then, remains >> > unanswered: >> > > >> > > *Does the WMF have a technical roadmap and if so please will the WMF >> > > publish it.* >> > > >> > > >> > > > If I may be so bold, it seems that your interpretation of my words >> > lacks >> > > > even basic faith. It seems to be the penultimate worst possible >> > > > interpretation (the worst being lying, the second... evading). >> > > > >> > > >> > > I can only go by what I see as a pesistent refusal to address this >> issue >> > > over many weeks by multiple members of the WMF staff. >> > > >> > > >> > > > But your nearly automatic interpretation may point to a deeper >> issue. I >> > > > hear you saying that you don't take me at my word. That you may not >> > take >> > > us >> > > > at our word. And I imagine that we have done some things to earn >> your >> > > > distrust. I hear you. >> > > > >> > > > But I assure you that I am telling you the truth now: I do not know. >> > > > >> > > >> > > Do you propose to take any steps to find out? If you do, please will >> you >> > > let the community know? >> > > >> > >> > I will look into this. I will seek to understand the Tech position on >> three >> > questions: >> > >> > - What do we philosophically believe: to roadmap or not to roadmap? >> > - What do we currently have in terms of planning? >> > - Will that change? >> > >> > I'll need some time. I have a lot of work right now (that's why I write >> to >> > you on the weekends). Everybody does. I imagine you would prefer >> another, >> > more speedy option, but I do not have it right now. We’re revving up the >> > movement strategy and have our annual planning beginning next week. >> That’s >> > at the org level. On top of that, my agenda is past max. To get a >> coherent >> > answer and to make sure that the right hand knows what the left hand is >> > doing, I’ll need to speak with a number of people who may be difficult >> to >> > get time with. >> > >> > I’ll get back to you. It may take me until the beginning of April. It >> may >> > be sooner, but I can’t promise anything sooner. >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > > Ok. How do you pronounce your fictitious name? I asked around, “Hey, >> > how >> > > do >> > > > you pronounce Rogol’s fictitious name”? Everyone pronounced it >> > > differently. >> > > > Some had a hard g. Some had a soft one. Some placed emphasis on the >> > first >> > > > syllable. Some on the second. >> > > > >> > > > I couldn’t stop laughing. I said to them, “But he’s made up…. how >> can >> > you >> > > > be *so sure*?” >> > > > >> > > >> > > Philippe Beaudette pronounced it acceptably it in the July 2015 >> Metrics >> > > Meeting, see, or rather listen to, >> > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXWNGEht9lU&feature=youtu.be >> > >> > >> > Thank you for the reference. I now know how to pronounce your name. Next >> > time when you send me lovely video references like this, would you be >> > willing to give me a time stamp? (It’s 39:15 in case others would like >> to >> > hear it). As it was, I listened to Phillipe’s whole talk. Was that your >> > intention? That I listen to Philippe's entire talk? If so, anything else >> > you would have liked me to note? >> > >> > p.s. >> > I received another email from another lovely wiki elf explaining to me >> that >> > it could be seen as though I were making fun of your fictitious name. >> If it >> > came across that way, I really do apologize. That was not my intention. >> I >> > was not laughing at your name. What I found funny was that people had a >> > series of pronunciations that were different and yet they were all sure >> > that they were correct. >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > "Rogol" >> > > _______________________________________________ >> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ >> > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ >> > > wiki/Wikimedia-l >> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l >> , >> > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > "If you have knowledge, let others light their candles in it." - >> Margaret >> > Fuller >> > >> > Anna Stillwell >> > Chargée d’Affaires / VP >> > Wikimedia Foundation >> > 415.806.1536 >> > *www.wikimediafoundation.org <http://www.wikimediafoundation.org>* >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ >> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ >> > wiki/Wikimedia-l >> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik >> i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik >> i/Wikimedia-l >> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> >> > > > > -- > "If you have knowledge, let others light their candles in it." - Margaret > Fuller > > Anna Stillwell > Chargée d’Affaires / VP > Wikimedia Foundation > 415.806.1536 <(415)%20806-1536> > *www.wikimediafoundation.org <http://www.wikimediafoundation.org>* > > _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
