[Wikimedia-l] How diverse are your readers?

2019-03-06 Thread Leila Zia
Hi all,

As I mentioned in an earlier thread [1], we will be running reader
surveys across a number of Wikipedia languages to learn about the
reader needs and motivations in these languages as well as some of
their demographic information (and perhaps the correlations between
demographics and user motivations and characteristics).

If your language community is interested to have statistics on the
distribution of reader gender, age, education, native language, and
geographic region (rural/urban) in your language (and depending on how
much data we collect in your language, perhaps more insights), this is
your chance to indicate interest at:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research_talk:Characterizing_Wikipedia_Reader_Behaviour/Demographics_and_Wikipedia_use_cases#Interested_languages

I initially communicated 2019-02-15 as the deadline to sign up. Since
then, we have run a pilot test on enwiki and we are investigating some
of the results to see if any changes in the survey questions are
needed. You have now time until 2019-03-15 to indicate interest.

As always: this call is primarily a service to your language
community. If you like it, take action on it. If you don't, no action
is needed. :)

Best,
Leila

[1] https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2019-February/091762.html

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Reviewing our brand system for our 2030 goals

2019-03-06 Thread Strainu
Pe marți, 26 februarie 2019, Benjamin Ikuta  a
scris:

>
>
>
> Is it perhaps a common misconception that Wikipedia is Wikimedia, or visa
> versa?


My personal experience, which seems to be confirmed by this study, is that
people simply have no idea what Wikimedia is. :)

Selling the changes to outsiders will be easy, we'll see how it goes with
insiders.

Strainu

>
>
>
>
> On Feb 25, 2019, at 7:13 PM, Zack McCune  wrote:
>
> > :: Apologies for cross-posting to multiple mailing lists. We want to
> ensure
> > we spread the word about this opportunity to as many people as possible.
> ::
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > We are writing today to invite you to be a part of a community review on
> > Wikimedia brand research and strategy.
> >
> > Recently, the Wikimedia Foundation set out to better understand how the
> > world sees Wikimedia and Wikimedia projects as brands.[1] We wanted to
> get
> > a sense of the general visibility of our different projects, and evaluate
> > public support of our mission to spread free knowledge.
> >
> > We launched a global brand study to research these questions, as part of
> > our planning toward our 2030 strategic goals.[2] The study was
> commissioned
> > by the Board, carried out by the brand consultancy Wolff Olins, and
> > directed by the Foundation’s Communications team.[3][4] It collected
> > perspectives from the internet users of seven countries (India, China,
> > Nigeria, Egypt, Germany, Mexico and the US) on Wikimedia projects and
> > values.
> >
> > The study revealed some interesting trends:
> >
> > - Awareness of Wikipedia is above 80% in Western Europe and North
> America.
> >
> > - Awareness of Wikipedia averages above 40% in emerging markets,[5] and
> is
> > fast growing.
> >
> > - There is awareness of other projects, but was significantly lower. For
> > example, awareness of Wikisource was at 30%, Wiktionary at 25%, Wikidata
> at
> > 20%, and Wikivoyage at 8%.
> >
> > - There was significant confusion around the name Wikimedia. Respondents
> > reported they had either not heard of it, or extrapolated its
> relationship
> > to Wikipedia.
> >
> > - In spite of lack of awareness about Wikimedia, respondents showed a
> high
> > level of support for our mission.
> >
> > Following from these research insights, the Wolff Olins team also made a
> > strategic suggestion to refine the Wikimedia brand system.[6] The
> > suggestions include:
> >
> > - Use Wikipedia as the central movement brand rather than Wikimedia.
> >
> > - Provide clearer connections to the Movement projects from Wikipedia to
> > drive increased awareness, usage and contributions to smaller projects.
> >
> > - Retain Wikimedia project names, with the exception of Wikimedia Commons
> > which is recommended to be shortened to Wikicommons to be consistent with
> > other projects.
> >
> > - Explore new naming conventions for the Foundation and affiliate groups
> > that use Wikipedia rather than Wikimedia.
> >
> > - Consider expository taglines and other naming conventions to reassert
> the
> > connections between projects (e.g. “__ - A Wikipedia project”).
> >
> > This is not a new idea.[7][8]
> >
> > By definition, Wikimedia brands are shared among the communities who give
> > them meaning. So in considering this change, the Wikimedia Foundation is
> > collecting feedback from across our communities. Our goal is to speak
> with
> > more than 80% of affiliates and as many individual contributors as
> possible
> > before May 2019, when we will offer the Board of Trustees a summary of
> > community response.
> >
> > We invite you to look at a project summary [9], the brand research [10],
> > and the brand strategy suggestion [11] Wolff Olins prepared working with
> us.
> >
> > For feedback, please add comments on the Community Review talk page [12]
> or
> > email brandproj...@wikimedia.org with direct feedback. You can also use
> > either of these channels to request to join a group meeting.
> >
> > We know this is big topic and we’re excited to hear from you!
> >
> >
> > - Zack McCune and the Wikimedia Foundation Communications department
> >
> >
> > [1]
> > https://wikimediafoundation.org/2019/02/07/how-does-the-
> world-see-wikimedia-brands/
> >
> > [2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20
> >
> > [3] https://www.wolffolins.com/
> >
> > [4] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Communications
> >
> > [5]
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Engagement/
> Defining_Emerging_Communities
> >
> > [6]
> > https://wikimediafoundation.org/2019/02/26/leading-with-
> wikipedia-a-brand-proposal-for-2030/
> >
> > [7] https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2007-
> May/029991.html
> >
> > [8]
> > https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=File%
> 3AStrengthening_and_unifying_the_visual_identity_of_
> Wikimedia_projects_-_a_step_towards_maturity_-_Wikimania_2007.pdf=56
> >
> > [9]
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Communications/Wikimedia_
> 

[Wikimedia-l] [Affiliates] Recognition of Wikimedia Community User Group Albania

2019-03-06 Thread Silva Arapi
Dears,

I am reaching out as Wikipedia contributor heavily interested in the growth
of our movement and as far as this thread is concerned as a member of
Wikimedia Community User Group Albania.
We were carefully reading the discussion on this thread and after
consideration with the other members from our group, we would like to
clarify some of the issues mentioned here. Our comments are not related to
any AffCom actual policies or future policy proposals since in our opinion
these should be part of another thread and not related to this one. We have
applied to be recognized as a user group based on the rules that were
active at the time of the application and also have answered questions from
the AffCom team. Without further ado here are the main points from our
side.

*0. 'similar' previous cases *
The majority of the comments in this thread are expressing concerns based
on previous case studies in other countries where two UGs were operating.
This seems quite judgemental about our work and about what will happen in
the future. This is quite surprising for a community like ours (I'm
referring to the Wikimedia community in general) where openness and
inclusion are promoted intensively by all of us. The concept that everyone
is welcome to work with the group of people that feels more productive
should be the standard and not the exception also in the Wikimeda community
in our opinion. Local or thematic user groups are tools to further grow our
movement, and it is not fair to judge by the fact that somewhere members of
different user groups had conflicts with each other and as a result not to
have user groups that have smaller or bigger differences in their
activities. It is just like banning all the knifes in the word because
someone in a corner of the world decided to harm someone else using a
knife...  At our UG we don't know the details of the conflicts of other
user groups, but we are sure that when members of one ore more UGs are
dedicated to have a conflict  with another UG they will find a way to do
it. Speaking for our user group we are just a group of Wikimedians that
want to contribute to the Wikimedia movement in Albania (where we live) by
doing what we know and the way we beoperate. Having said this we would
kindly ask not to jump into conclusions for the behavior of user groups
based on incidents that have happened elsewhere.

*1. differences between UGs *
Once again here are two main points to be taken into consideration:

*1.1 focus in Albania as a country (not in the language) *
One of the important elements of having more than one user group approved
is avoiding overlapping of focus. From the comments in this thread it is
clear that our focus is Albania geographically and as a country (not
linguistically) and at not more than two main areas: GLAM and Wiki in
Education! We strongly believe that these areas and the focus at a
geographical level are under-served to say at least and there are many many
indications that prove this.
Regarding the comments about the differences between the two UGs: a similar
example would be a Spanish Language UG (if it existed)  and Columbia
Community UG (that we would assume would contribute to the ES Wikipedia).
These two UGs would clearly have many reasons and would be legit to be
recognized, just as in our case where Wikimedia Community User Group
Albania is focused in activities in Albania (not defined by the language),
which we think is more productive due to the dedication in one specific
area. Of course since October 2017 when we sent the application to AffCom,
but even before when we started working on creating the UG, we wanted to be
clear about the main focus of our activities following our strong belief
that being focused only in the areas we feel we have expertise would make
our work and the final 'product' better.


*2. overlapping of activities*
There are at least 37 museums listed at the moment in SQ Wikipedia, and
hundreds of schools in 36 cities in Albania counting thousands of students
and hundreds of teachers. Even if Albania is a small country, there is so
much work to be done and any help and engagement of any level is more than
welcome. If we all have good intentions and if all active User Groups in
the area are positive towards each other it is actually quite easy to avoid
overlapping and develop SQ Wikipedia from (only) 75000 articles to hundreds
of thousands of more articles. In a few words, there is space for
activities from many user groups and even more projects to implement in two
areas that we are working on GLAM and Wiki in Education.
Up until today here is what we as a user group have done in order to avoid
any conflict that would generate overlapping:
*- planning activities ahead *
All our activities are planned ahead in our monthly meetings and are
published accordingly. Any Wikipedian in the area can check the notes and
see where is our focus in the next months and avoid overlapping.
*- transparency *
documenting note meetings 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Video Wiki

2019-03-06 Thread Jack Gleeson
Awesome work!

On Wed, 27 Feb 2019 at 16:20, Brion Vibber  wrote:

> That's pretty cool! I'll add some more notes on the wiki page later.
>
> -- brion
>
> On Tue, Feb 26, 2019, 9:55 PM James Heilman  wrote:
>
> > Hey All
> >
> > We have a new project called Video Wiki
> >  which
> > allows:
> >
> >1. The easy creation of videos from scripts from Wikipedia and images
> /
> >short video segments from Commons
> >2. Scripts can have inline references and the text of the script with
> >references end up in the captions of the video with references. These
> >captions can be turned on and off
> >3. At the end of the video it automatically adds
> >   1.  the license for the text (CC BY SA license)
> >   2. attribution of those who have edited the scripts
> >   3. all the metadata for the references supporting the scripts
> >4. The final video version on Commons lists the files that the video
> is
> >derived from
> >5. Attribution for the images is automatically added at the bottom of
> >each image
> >
> >
> > Have started a discussion here on Wikipedia and would appreciate peoples
> > thoughts. Will be drafting a formal RfC about the use of such videos
> > eventually.
> >
> >
> >
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Medicine#Video_Wiki
> >
> >
> > --
> > James Heilman
> > MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Video Wiki

2019-03-06 Thread Gopa Vasanth
Wooow, This is Amazing !

Regards

Gopa Vasanth
Amrita Vishwa Vidyapeetham  || Blog

amFOSS  || GitHub
 || Gerrit


“Yesterday is not ours to recover, but tomorrow is ours to win or lose.”
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] New Foundation events team

2019-03-06 Thread Roman Bustria Jr.
Congratulations to the new events team!

Though the East and Southeast Asia and Pacific (Eseap) Wikimedia Community
was disheartened by its exclusion in the conference grants program, we are
looking forward for better collaboration this time. We have a lineup of
regional events and programmes in place and we hope the temporary halt will
lifted soon.

We are still waiting for the green light from the movement strategy
discussions on resource allocation, isn't it?



Butch Bustria

On Wed, Mar 6, 2019, 3:03 AM Chris Keating 
wrote:

> Thanks for the update Maggie and welcome Joel and Isabel!
>
> I just wanted to ask about this bit of your email:
>
>
> > this new Events
> > Team, which will be focused on convenorship -- a critical part of our
> > outreach and growth dynamic.
>
>
> I haven't heard the word "convenorship" before, could someone explain what
> it means in our context?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Chris
> ___
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikimedia-asia-chapters] [WM-Chairpersons] New board of Wikimedia Indonesia

2019-03-06 Thread Biyanto Rebin
Grazie, Camelia!



Pada tanggal Jum, 15 Feb 2019 pukul 14.52 camelia boban <
camelia.bo...@gmail.com> menulis:

> Wow, what a diversity Wikimedia Indonesia, thank you for this ❤!
>
> Good wiki work, looking forward to collaborate with you.
>
> Sincerely,
> Camelia
>
>
> --
> *Camelia Boban*
>
> *| Developer |*
> *Affiliations Committee Treasurer - **Wikimedia *Foundation
> Coordinator - Diversity Working Group for Wikimedia Strategy 2030
> Chair & co-founder - WikiDonne User Group
> WMIT - WMSE - WMCH - WMAR Member
> M. +39 3383385545
> camelia.bo...@gmail.com
> *Wikipedia  | *Twitter
>  *|* *Google Plu
> s
> *
> *WikiDonne * *| **LinkedIn
>   **|* *Aissa
> Technologies* 
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Il giorno ven 15 feb 2019 alle ore 08:31 Biyanto Rebin <
> biyanto.re...@wikimedia.or.id> ha scritto:
>
> > Thank you, Asaf, Delphine, Josie, Phillip, and Gnanggara for your best
> > wishes.
> >
> > Looking forward to working with you all again for the next 3 years.
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Pada tanggal Sel, 12 Feb 2019 pukul 19.08 Gnangarra  >
> > menulis:
> >
> > > Welcome to new Board, Wikimedia Australia looks forward to working with
> > you
> > >
> > > On Tue, 12 Feb 2019 at 19:16, Josie Fraser 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >> Congratulations Indonesia! A warm welcome to your new Board members
> from
> > >> Wikimedia UK, and our best wishes to all those who have been
> re-elected.
> > >>
> > >> Best, Josie
> > >>
> > >> ___
> > >> Chairpersons mailing list
> > >> chairpers...@lists.wikimedia.org
> > >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/chairpersons
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On 11 Feb 2019, at 07:25, Biyanto Rebin <
> biyanto.re...@wikimedia.or.id>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Hello, our fellow Wikifriends,
> > >>
> > >> On 19 January 2019, Wikimedia Indonesia elected the new boards. The
> > >> current structure consists of 5 females and 4 males with various
> > ethnicity
> > >> background (Javanese, Lampungnese, Bataknese, Mollucan, Achinese, etc)
> > and
> > >> native languages (Indonesian, Javanese, Achinese, etc.). We are proud
> to
> > >> say that our background representing our country motto, Bhinneka
> Tunggal
> > >> Ika (Unity in
> > >> Diversity).
> > >>
> > >> *Board of Executive*
> > >>
> > >>- Biyanto Rebin, Chair, re-elected
> > >>- Ivonne Kristiani, Deputy Chair,  re-elected
> > >>- Rachmat Wahidi, Secretary-General,  re-elected
> > >>- Hillun Vilayl Napis, Deputy Secretary General, new
> > >>- Djohan Satria Hasibuan, Treasurer,  re-elected
> > >>- Thirza Ria Vandari, Deputy Treasurer, new
> > >>
> > >> *Board of Trustees*
> > >>
> > >>- Rinto Jiang,  re-elected
> > >>- Fachria Y. Marasabessy, new
> > >>- Fajarwati, new
> > >>
> > >> We hope we can bring our best for Wikimedia movements in Indonesia.
> > >>
> > >> Best regards,
> > >>
> > >> Biyanto
> > >>
> > >> ===
> > >> *Profile*
> > >> Board of Executives
> > >>
> > >> Biyanto Rebin is an active Wikimedian at the Indonesian Wikipedia
> since
> > >> 2006 using “Beeyan” as his username. He graduated from Chinese
> > Literature
> > >> at the University of Indonesia. In 2014, he was appointed as the
> Member
> > of
> > >> Board of Executive in the position of Deputy General Secretary. In
> > 2016, he
> > >> was elected as Wikimedia Indonesia Chairperson and re-elected in 2019.
> > In
> > >> the spirit of open access, he supports the mission of free knowledge
> as
> > it
> > >> is one of the important keys to open the widest channel of knowledge
> to
> > the
> > >> wider community.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Ivonne Kristiani obtained her Master in Sociology and Political
> > >> Philosophy from Université Paris Diderot, France. She is now based in
> > >> Jakarta and is the Project Manager for Cipta Media Ekspresi arts &
> > culture
> > >> grant for women, funded by Ford Foundation. She started editing in
> > >> Indonesian Wikipedia as “06Ivonne” when joining the Free Your
> Knowledge
> > >> writing competition in 2010.
> > >>
> > >> Djohan Satria Hasibuan is the Treasurer of Wikimedia Indonesia and
> > >> graduated from Accounting Degree at the University of Persada
> Indonesia
> > >> Y.A.I who is currently domiciled in Jakarta. He joined the Wikimedia
> > >> Indonesia since 2012 as a financial supervisor on several projects,
> > such as
> > >> Cipta Media Bersama, Cipta Media Seluler, and Cipta Media Ekspresi.
> > >>
> > >> Thirza Ria Vandari has been a member of the Wikimedia Indonesia since
> > >> 2017 and was graduated from Accounting Degree at the University of
> > >> Indonesia. With her 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Use of Wikimedia projects for anti-LGBT+ "humour"

2019-03-06 Thread
Thanks Peter.

Completely agree that I was stupid in my choice to use the word
"intended" in the deletion nomination, giving any impression that the
distress the article has caused might be presumed to be deliberate
when that was not what I intended to express. It was hasty, unwise, a
massive self defeating clanger. I apologised, I have taken
responsibility and corrected the MfD nomination to entirely focus on
the "Pronouns beware" essay. It was a perfectly valid criticism.

The MfD is ongoing and will probably close soon. I do not want to
discuss specifics here, people can go read it or contribute for
themselves rather than duplicating the points being made.

In more general procedural terms of what happens once the MfD is
closed as a keep or delete, it is a fact before publication concerns
were raised that it was likely to cause disruption and distress,
because of how it would be received, especially by our LGBT+ readers,
regardless of intent. That early concern gave not just the named
authors, but many active contributors to Signpost the opportunity to
discuss the draft, and perhaps ask that the essay be revised or kept
draft until those comments were talked through. It would be nice if
concerned Wikipedians joined in with discussions focused on
preventative action, showing that lessons can be learned, and Signpost
processes improved, especially for "red flag" issues where it seems
wise and positive to give extra scrutiny and time for reflection.

Improvement is something I expect almost everyone will wholeheartedly
want to see as an outcome of this incident. How about the idea that
"Signpost is a community effort that should serve our community's
values and needs, and that there is zero reason for it ever to be
'edgy' with humor or to in any way offend..." It might save a lot of
time if similar words were to become an agreed Signpost editorial
policy, but let's wait a while for the dust to settle, before starting
to create a consensus on that.[1]

Links
1. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jimbo_Wales=prev=886107859

Fae
-- 
fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
Wikimedia LGBT+ https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_LGBT+

On Wed, 6 Mar 2019 at 12:24, Peter Southwood
 wrote:
>
> Fae
> Not your fault for looking at it, more like your fault for interpreting it in 
> the worst possible way, against hints given by the author, and insisting that 
> your interpretation is more correct than the meaning intended by the author, 
> even after getting a rational and plausible explanation from the author.
> Cheers,
> Peter
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf 
> Of Fæ
> Sent: 06 March 2019 10:37
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Use of Wikimedia projects for anti-LGBT+ "humour"
>
> It is an old story, artists and authors using humour and parody that
> they genuinely believed was an observation, not an attack on anyone.
> That a comedian or an author had good intentions, or the trope that
> complainers "need to get a sense of humour", does not stop us knowing
> that the promotion of stereotypes or other marginalization of a
> minority, causes actual harm, real distress, and for the targeted
> group there are long term consequences that come from having less self
> worth.
>
> Peter, history is against you and it always has been. It does not take
> long browsing Wikipedia to understand why we all need to stand up and
> callout thoughtless jokes and bad stereotypes, rather than being
> intimidated by free speech fallacious arguments that claim "it is your
> fault for looking at it". I suggest reflecting over how blackface
> minstrelsy was defended as harmless and hilarious fun that persisted
> for well over a hundred years, or in this century how parodies about
> trans people that were considered harmless twenty years ago, are
> correctly called abusive now.[1][2] I'm not even going to touch what
> we can learn from "parody" in the 1930s.
>
> Good faith is superduper, we should avoid presuming bad intentions,
> especially if a first mistake that will not be repeated. This does not
> stop us Wikipedians having a shared duty to ensure that through our
> website we are not complicit in creating bad outcomes. Seriously who
> disagrees with that, and if this is what you mean by "political
> purposes to push an agenda", sure please join us and sign up to our
> open knowledge agenda.
>
> Comedian Kumail Nanjiani, "Comedians making transphobic jokes: What
> side do you wanna be on?"
>
> Links
> 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minstrel_show
> 2. 
> https://www.nzherald.co.nz/entertainment/news/article.cfm?c_id=1501119=12115577
>
> Fae
> --
> fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
> Wikimedia LGBT+ https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_LGBT+
>
> On Wed, 6 Mar 2019 at 07:26, Peter Southwood
>  wrote:
> >
> > Natasha,
> > I seldom rush to be the first to express 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Use of Wikimedia projects for anti-LGBT+ "humour"

2019-03-06 Thread Pierre-Selim
If humour offend people then the problem is not with people feeling
offended.

Humour is often based on common understanding and common background between
the person making a joke.
I can joke with really good friend making irony and derision about things
that are in my values, they know it and will get the irony.
I should not do that to a wider audience (they won't get it, and I have lot
of chances to offend people).

We may err sometimes and still offend people by making something we think
is humour, when told I see no other good path than presenting excuses.

I'm seriously disappointed to see such piece published in the Wikipedia
SignPost.

Le mer. 6 mars 2019 à 09:53, Fæ  a écrit :

> It is an old story, artists and authors using humour and parody that
> they genuinely believed was an observation, not an attack on anyone.
> That a comedian or an author had good intentions, or the trope that
> complainers "need to get a sense of humour", does not stop us knowing
> that the promotion of stereotypes or other marginalization of a
> minority, causes actual harm, real distress, and for the targeted
> group there are long term consequences that come from having less self
> worth.
>
> Peter, history is against you and it always has been. It does not take
> long browsing Wikipedia to understand why we all need to stand up and
> callout thoughtless jokes and bad stereotypes, rather than being
> intimidated by free speech fallacious arguments that claim "it is your
> fault for looking at it". I suggest reflecting over how blackface
> minstrelsy was defended as harmless and hilarious fun that persisted
> for well over a hundred years, or in this century how parodies about
> trans people that were considered harmless twenty years ago, are
> correctly called abusive now.[1][2] I'm not even going to touch what
> we can learn from "parody" in the 1930s.
>
> Good faith is superduper, we should avoid presuming bad intentions,
> especially if a first mistake that will not be repeated. This does not
> stop us Wikipedians having a shared duty to ensure that through our
> website we are not complicit in creating bad outcomes. Seriously who
> disagrees with that, and if this is what you mean by "political
> purposes to push an agenda", sure please join us and sign up to our
> open knowledge agenda.
>
> Comedian Kumail Nanjiani, "Comedians making transphobic jokes: What
> side do you wanna be on?"
>
> Links
> 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minstrel_show
> 2.
> https://www.nzherald.co.nz/entertainment/news/article.cfm?c_id=1501119=12115577
>
> Fae
> --
> fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
> Wikimedia LGBT+ https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_LGBT+
>
> On Wed, 6 Mar 2019 at 07:26, Peter Southwood
>  wrote:
> >
> > Natasha,
> > I seldom rush to be the first to express an opinion. It may be that this
> humour has deeply affected some people, but it is my considered opinion
> that they have jumped to a conclusion without due reflection themselves.
> Accusing a person with no known history of baiting people for their gender
> identification of doing just that, when they tried to make it clear that
> that was not their intention within the constraints of not over-explaining
> a joke, seems like attempting to use the article for political purposes to
> push an agenda for special use of terminology on Wikipedia which is not
> used by reliable sources by claiming extreme outrage. Maybe I am wrong, but
> that is what it looks like to me. I can imagine other alternatives too, and
> they are even worse.
> > As far as I am aware, we are having the conversation freely, so yes, by
> all means.
> > The "joked about party" can express what they feel about such "jokes",
> and are doing so to the extent that they appear to consider it quite OK to
> assume that their assumption that they are the target of the jokes is true
> because they choose to take it that way, and that the word of the author is
> irrelevant, and that it is perfectly acceptable to harass someone because
> they chose to be offended. This may be happening with others who do not
> feel personally targeted too, but I don’t know what  their reasoning is.
> > Cheers,
> > Peter
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On
> Behalf Of Natacha Rault via Wikimedia-l
> > Sent: 05 March 2019 16:12
> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Use of Wikimedia projects for anti-LGBT+
> "humour"
> >
> > Hi Peter,
> >
> > Please take time to reflect that this humour has deeply affected some
> people (and not only the persons who outed publicly taking risks), hence
> the reaction. To those who do not understand how LGBTIQ people feel about
> jokes on their identity and the legitimate desire that adequate language be
> used to express it might just seem superfluous and look like an
> overreaction, but it does echo a deep suffering which takes place after
> being joked about 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Use of Wikimedia projects for anti-LGBT+ "humour"

2019-03-06 Thread
It is an old story, artists and authors using humour and parody that
they genuinely believed was an observation, not an attack on anyone.
That a comedian or an author had good intentions, or the trope that
complainers "need to get a sense of humour", does not stop us knowing
that the promotion of stereotypes or other marginalization of a
minority, causes actual harm, real distress, and for the targeted
group there are long term consequences that come from having less self
worth.

Peter, history is against you and it always has been. It does not take
long browsing Wikipedia to understand why we all need to stand up and
callout thoughtless jokes and bad stereotypes, rather than being
intimidated by free speech fallacious arguments that claim "it is your
fault for looking at it". I suggest reflecting over how blackface
minstrelsy was defended as harmless and hilarious fun that persisted
for well over a hundred years, or in this century how parodies about
trans people that were considered harmless twenty years ago, are
correctly called abusive now.[1][2] I'm not even going to touch what
we can learn from "parody" in the 1930s.

Good faith is superduper, we should avoid presuming bad intentions,
especially if a first mistake that will not be repeated. This does not
stop us Wikipedians having a shared duty to ensure that through our
website we are not complicit in creating bad outcomes. Seriously who
disagrees with that, and if this is what you mean by "political
purposes to push an agenda", sure please join us and sign up to our
open knowledge agenda.

Comedian Kumail Nanjiani, "Comedians making transphobic jokes: What
side do you wanna be on?"

Links
1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minstrel_show
2. 
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/entertainment/news/article.cfm?c_id=1501119=12115577

Fae
-- 
fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
Wikimedia LGBT+ https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_LGBT+

On Wed, 6 Mar 2019 at 07:26, Peter Southwood
 wrote:
>
> Natasha,
> I seldom rush to be the first to express an opinion. It may be that this 
> humour has deeply affected some people, but it is my considered opinion that 
> they have jumped to a conclusion without due reflection themselves. Accusing 
> a person with no known history of baiting people for their gender 
> identification of doing just that, when they tried to make it clear that that 
> was not their intention within the constraints of not over-explaining a joke, 
> seems like attempting to use the article for political purposes to push an 
> agenda for special use of terminology on Wikipedia which is not used by 
> reliable sources by claiming extreme outrage. Maybe I am wrong, but that is 
> what it looks like to me. I can imagine other alternatives too, and they are 
> even worse.
> As far as I am aware, we are having the conversation freely, so yes, by all 
> means.
> The "joked about party" can express what they feel about such "jokes", and 
> are doing so to the extent that they appear to consider it quite OK to assume 
> that their assumption that they are the target of the jokes is true because 
> they choose to take it that way, and that the word of the author is 
> irrelevant, and that it is perfectly acceptable to harass someone because 
> they chose to be offended. This may be happening with others who do not feel 
> personally targeted too, but I don’t know what  their reasoning is.
> Cheers,
> Peter
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf 
> Of Natacha Rault via Wikimedia-l
> Sent: 05 March 2019 16:12
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Use of Wikimedia projects for anti-LGBT+ "humour"
>
> Hi Peter,
>
> Please take time to reflect that this humour has deeply affected some people 
> (and not only the persons who outed publicly taking risks), hence the 
> reaction. To those who do not understand how LGBTIQ people feel about jokes 
> on their identity and the legitimate desire that adequate language be used to 
> express it might just seem superfluous and look like an overreaction, but it 
> does echo a deep suffering which takes place after being joked about 
> virtually everywhere and not being able to express opinion when on the 
> otherside, freedom of speech is invoked to promote such jokes. Advocates of 
> freedom of speech do not try to silence opinions.
> Just look at what happened recently in France around the Ligue du lol affair, 
> and maybe you will understand what is at stake here (1).
>
> Jokes are not bad in themselves, they become problematic when they 
> systematically target the same group of people (women, LGBTIQ  people, 
> minorities ect...) , and when they are issued systematically by the same 
> group of people not aware of their own priviledge, and when they are 
> disseminated through official channels. They can pave the way to problematic 
> behaviors if the « joked about party » cannot in turn express freely 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Use of Wikimedia projects for anti-LGBT+ "humour"

2019-03-06 Thread Natacha Rault via Wikimedia-l
Hi Peter, 

It

> Le 6 mars 2019 à 08:25, Peter Southwood  a 
> écrit :
> 
> Natasha,
> I seldom rush to be the first to express an opinion. It may be that this 
> humour has deeply affected some people, but it is my considered opinion that 
> they have jumped to a conclusion without due reflection themselves. Accusing 
> a person with no known history of baiting people for their gender 
> identification of doing just that, when they tried to make it clear that that 
> was not their intention within the constraints of not over-explaining a joke, 
> seems like attempting to use the article for political purposes to push an 
> agenda for special use of terminology on Wikipedia which is not used by 
> reliable sources by claiming extreme outrage. Maybe I am wrong, but that is 
> what it looks like to me. I can imagine other alternatives too, and they are 
> even worse. 
> As far as I am aware, we are having the conversation freely, so yes, by all 
> means. 
> The "joked about party" can express what they feel about such "jokes", and 
> are doing so to the extent that they appear to consider it quite OK to assume 
> that their assumption that they are the target of the jokes is true because 
> they choose to take it that way, and that the word of the author is 
> irrelevant, and that it is perfectly acceptable to harass someone because 
> they chose to be offended. This may be happening with others who do not feel 
> personally targeted too, but I don’t know what  their reasoning is.
> Cheers, 
> Peter
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf 
> Of Natacha Rault via Wikimedia-l
> Sent: 05 March 2019 16:12
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Use of Wikimedia projects for anti-LGBT+ "humour"
> 
> Hi Peter, 
> 
> Please take time to reflect that this humour has deeply affected some people 
> (and not only the persons who outed publicly taking risks), hence the 
> reaction. To those who do not understand how LGBTIQ people feel about jokes 
> on their identity and the legitimate desire that adequate language be used to 
> express it might just seem superfluous and look like an overreaction, but it 
> does echo a deep suffering which takes place after being joked about 
> virtually everywhere and not being able to express opinion when on the 
> otherside, freedom of speech is invoked to promote such jokes. Advocates of 
> freedom of speech do not try to silence opinions. 
> Just look at what happened recently in France around the Ligue du lol affair, 
> and maybe you will understand what is at stake here (1). 
> 
> Jokes are not bad in themselves, they become problematic when they 
> systematically target the same group of people (women, LGBTIQ  people, 
> minorities ect...) , and when they are issued systematically by the same 
> group of people not aware of their own priviledge, and when they are 
> disseminated through official channels. They can pave the way to problematic 
> behaviors if the « joked about party » cannot in turn express freely what 
> they feel about these jokes. 
> I have a request : can we have the conversation freely? 
> This is in no way underevaluating the value of the Signpost and the 
> remarkable work done by people like you.
> Maybe more articles on the subject of harassement and gender issues are 
> needed in the Signpost to adress this issue, to lay down the cards, and maybe 
> not in humour tone.
> To finish  I want to thank Barbara  from the bottom of my heart  for showing 
> willingness to apologize and understand (because the effect of this is 
> soothing and shows willingness to understand) and I thank Fae for speaking 
> out. 
> If all protagonists could now calm down and consider that the very fact the 
> conversation is taking place is positive, I think we would all have gained in 
> freedom of speech. 
> 
> Good afternoon, 
> 
> Nattes à chat
> 
> (1) 
> https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/12/world/europe/la-ligue-du-lol-sexual-harassment.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> Le 5 mars 2019 à 10:07, Peter Southwood  a 
>> écrit :
>> 
>> "When in danger or in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout."
>> Overreacting is a tradition at Wikipedia. 
>> Cheers, 
>> Peter
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf 
>> Of Michel Vuijlsteke
>> Sent: 03 March 2019 19:49
>> To: Wikimedia Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Use of Wikimedia projects for anti-LGBT+ "humour"
>> 
>> I don't understand in which possible world anyone thought this was a good
>> idea.
>> 
>> The MfD, that is. It, and the entire discussion in favour, reads as some
>> sort of caricature of the worst SJW-type excesses.
>> 
>> M.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Sun, 3 Mar 2019 at 16:41, Fæ  wrote:
>>> 
>>> As the last second repost had the same format error, I am trying for a
>>> final time. How embarrassing!
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> I would like to apologise to SMcCandlish and