Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fram en.wp office yearlock block

2019-06-15 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi, For me it is not about Fram, it is about who you are as a community how you rate as friendly cooperative inviting. At that Wikipedia sucks and as it says in the book Max Havelaar, "Barbertje moet hangen". This case is a clear sign that not everything can be said and done and that there is no

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fram en.wp office yearlock block

2019-06-15 Thread Todd Allen
No they're not. Just within the last month or thereabouts, the English Wikipedia ArbCom desysopped three administrators. One for poor tool use and communication, one for simple misuse and aggressive communication afterward, and one for socking. Admins are by no means "immune to sanctions"; if

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fram en.wp office yearlock block

2019-06-15 Thread George Herbert
I think the legalities are distracting, but to be more on point and blunt: Wikipedia is a volunteer organization. Wikimedia Foundation is the professional support arm of in some ways the world's largest collection of similar goal volunteer organizations. Volunteer organizations happen because

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fram en.wp office yearlock block

2019-06-15 Thread Mister Thrapostibongles
Paulo I've not been on those dumping grounds, open air sewages and troll hives > were that stuff is said to be happening, > Unfortunately one of those dumping grounds now appears to be the official Twitter account of Wiki Women in Red, a recognised Wikipedia Project, where a member chose to

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fram en.wp office yearlock block

2019-06-15 Thread Mister Thrapostibongles
All, A suggestion that I think might help to focus the discussion. I suggest that anyone who wants to discuss what Fram might or might not have done, and whether or not some acts that Frame might or might not have done, or failed to do, merits the punishment that has been meted out should

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fram en.wp office yearlock block

2019-06-15 Thread Isaac Olatunde
if Fram was not an admin, all these discussions would not have been done) [citation needed] I don't think this is entirely incorrect. Chances are that people would not notice or care if Fram was not an admin. Isaac On Fri, Jun 14, 2019, 2:05 PM Martijn Hoekstra if Fram was not an admin, all

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fram en.wp office yearlock block

2019-06-15 Thread Isaac Olatunde
Sadly, people with advanced permissions (admin, checkuser etc) on Wikimedia projects are almost immune to sanctions. You could imagine a behavior that would normally lead to a site ban for people with no permission will only result in a desysop for an administrator. Worst of it is Wikimedia

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fram en.wp office yearlock block

2019-06-15 Thread Isaac Olatunde
I do think that people should be sanctioned for off-wiki harassment if the harassment is a result of the on-wiki activities of the victim. It doesn't matter if it was done on-wiki or off-wiki, if we can identify the harasser and we are confident that their actions are motivated by onwiki

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fram en.wp office yearlock block

2019-06-15 Thread Thomas Townsend
On Sat, 15 Jun 2019 at 18:39, Dan Rosenthal wrote: > > There is no "very basic principle of Human Rights and dignity" to be free > from the presumption of guilt by others. You may be confusing Article 11 > of the UHDR, but this applies explicitly only to "penal offenses." Unless > Fram is

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fram en.wp office yearlock block

2019-06-15 Thread Dennis During
Just so long as we don't make exaggeration/hyperbole a violation of the Code of Conduct. On Sat, Jun 15, 2019 at 5:28 PM Vi to wrote: > I disagree with using this kind of metaphor as long as they imply an > overestimation of the importance of the fictional universe we're dealing > with. > For

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fram en.wp office yearlock block

2019-06-15 Thread Vi to
I disagree with using this kind of metaphor as long as they imply an overestimation of the importance of the fictional universe we're dealing with. For sanity sake it's always useful to remember this is just "a strange website". Vito Il giorno sab 15 giu 2019 alle ore 21:55 Dennis During ha

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fram en.wp office yearlock block

2019-06-15 Thread Philippe Beaudette
Todd, I have to tell you, this comment made me absolutely LOL. All I could imagine was Sue Gardner (from my WMF days) and Geoff Brigham interrogating me about my desire to send out a goon squad after, i dunno, Risker and Newyorkbrad or something. I could imagine Geoff telling me that I needed

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fram en.wp office yearlock block

2019-06-15 Thread Todd Allen
I think that's true too; such things are very often used metaphorically. I think everyone here is clear that no one is literally going to be drug off in a white van by a balaclava-wearing goon squad from the WMF and sent to a gulag. But the fact remains, those systems of justice are things we

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fram en.wp office yearlock block

2019-06-15 Thread Dennis During
It seems perfectly reasonable to use metaphors based on legal systems, including human rights, in discussing these matters, which do, after all, involve rules of human behavior and their adjudication by authorities. Fairness and justice are constantly invoked in all sorts of everyday matters, from

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fram en.wp office yearlock block

2019-06-15 Thread Paulo Santos Perneta
"someone getting banned from a website over bad conduct issue" - Since the WMF has not clarified what that "bad conduct" has been, I wonder what was the educative value of that. Seems to have been only purely disruptive, and opened the door for all kinds of assumptions, and offwiki harassment of

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fram en.wp office yearlock block

2019-06-15 Thread Dan Rosenthal
I didn't put my words in your mouth -- I quoted your own words precisely, and the implication you were trying to make is obvious; so respectfully, please refrain from gaslighting here. I simply suggested dropping the hyperbole of "star chambers and kangaroo courts", "secret trials punishing

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fram en.wp office yearlock block

2019-06-15 Thread Paulo Santos Perneta
I have never said that this is a human rights violation, so please don't put your words on my mouth. I have said that the general principles of equality, right to fair trial, not having ones honor damaged by baseless accusations, etc. which are present at the UDHR are being forgotten here. Of

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fram en.wp office yearlock block

2019-06-15 Thread Dan Rosenthal
There is no "very basic principle of Human Rights and dignity" to be free from the presumption of guilt by others. You may be confusing Article 11 of the UHDR, but this applies explicitly only to "penal offenses." Unless Fram is getting locked up in prison for his actions, let's drop the absurd

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fram en.wp office yearlock block

2019-06-15 Thread Paulo Santos Perneta
People shouldn't be going with any random option, but rather presume the innocence of others unless guilt is proven by some legit process. It seems that this very basic principle of Human Rights and dignity is being forgotten. There is not the least appearance of due process happening there, but

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fram en.wp office yearlock block

2019-06-15 Thread geni
On Fri, 14 Jun 2019 at 11:32, Todd Allen wrote: > > The only case of "harassment" apparently cited here was "I kept writing > garbage articles, and someone kept flagging them as garbage! Harassment! > Bad!" > I think there is general agreement that such flagging could have been handled better.

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fram en.wp office yearlock block

2019-06-15 Thread geni
And you are suggesting that the WMF are taking admin status into account something I can't seem them agreeing with. On Fri, 14 Jun 2019 at 11:37, David Gerard wrote: > > and you're *seriously* positing that the WMF would ban an admin for > doing only what you describe? > -- geni

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fram en.wp office yearlock block

2019-06-15 Thread geni
On Sat, 15 Jun 2019 at 00:04, David Gerard wrote: > > If you really think Fram's framing of events here is even plausible, > What you are calling Fram's framing appears to be a the WMF's version of events as told to fram. The WMF does look slightly better if you remember that T arw trying to

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fram en.wp office yearlock block

2019-06-15 Thread Paulo Santos Perneta
Both systems are horrible. Secret trials punishing people who don't even know they are being accused, and of what they are being accused, without any chance to appeal afterwards, are nothing short of horrible and inhumane. That, yes, is plain harassment against the victims of those secret trials.

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Results of the Affiliate Selected Board Seats voting

2019-06-15 Thread phoebe ayers
Congratulations to Nat and Shani! And big thanks to Christophe for your energy and care. Being on the Board is a very tough job and a huge commitment of time and energy, and thanks to all who ran. I'm also glad the voting has been expanded; in addition to the points Chris Keating makes about

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fram en.wp office yearlock block

2019-06-15 Thread Robert Fernandez
Far better that editors deal with unfairness from secret proceedings by untrained and unqualified volunteers of varying degrees of incompetence elected in a popularity contest. On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 10:32 PM David Goodman wrote: > the probability of unfairness from secret proceeding by >

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fram en.wp office yearlock block

2019-06-15 Thread Vi to
Il giorno sab 15 giu 2019 alle ore 04:32 David Goodman ha scritto: > From my perspective of 4 years on enWP arb com, there is no question that > the enWP does not deal well with routine low-level harassment in the > absence of something really awful. > This happens everywhere, though I don't