Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system

2020-07-19 Thread Gnangarra
Full disclosure I am an OTRS agent, I am not speaking on behalf of OTRS I
referencing only public information, or personal experiences

This page https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/OTRS answers some the questions
including a list of OTRS administrators , the last update to that page
which was marked for translation one can presume its been reviewed at that
stage as correct was 12 March 2020

For a full list of OTRS agents https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/OTRS/Users ,
though it doesn't say what queues individual agents have access to.

There is a page for the policy on accessing OTRS
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/OTRS/Access_policy

There is an activity test, agents who have not answered any tickets for 6
months can have their access removed see
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/OTRS/Activity_policy

The OTRSwiki has guides on how to answer almost every type of email that is
received, and when to defer emails to other queues. There are pre-prepared
answers available to the agents when answering, they can modify those
answers or write a fresh response themselves.

You can ask any OTRS agent to review a ticket,   and you could always
escalate it by contacting an OTRS admin if you had any specific concerns
with the actions of OTRS agent including the way they dealt with a ticket.

Internally OTRS agents have options to seek help;

   - can leave a note/comment on the ticket
   - can ask on the OTRSwiki for advice
   - can ask on the OTRS email list,

You can also choose to let someone else answer it, or forward it to another
queue, to me common sense says if you dont know dont answer or seek out
help beforehand .  OTRS agents are responsible for any edits make to
articles on the project. Anything that also needs an on project action must
comply with the projects policies, including BLP, Notability, and
verifiable citations  to make changes. If its edit warring or bypassing a
block then the person is referred back with links to the project dispute
processes.  I spent the first couple of weeks when I joined OTRS just
watching tickets and following/participating in discussions before I
started answering any tickets.

From what I've seen I dont think a public log is practicable
because sensitive information can be in the email header and email address
may not be public, there is also a considerable amount of
junk/spam/phishing emails that also come through the system. Every ticket
gets a confirmation email back with the ticket number.

I hope this helps with answering the questions being raised.

On Mon, 20 Jul 2020 at 06:18, Alessandro Marchetti via Wikimedia-l <
wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> wrote:

>  I am now quite confused. Are we supposed to ask very specific questions
> about OTRS hoping to get an answer because if the questions are too generic
> for sure we will never get a lot of answers? is that the general idea?
>
> ok if it helps, here are some of them
> 1. are OTRS policies categorized somehow? is there a page with instruction
> with how to handle mails from private companies, from people, mails of
> legal issues, mail about copyright etc2. how are OTRS agents reviewed? is
> it a peer-review process? is it regularly done?3. do we have a policy that
> impose a minimal constant activity on content-reòated platform to keep OTRS
> flag?
> 4. how can a normal user file a request to deflag another operator?5. is
> there a open log of OTRS requests, some place where minimal information
> related to a ticket can be disclosed (for example the date of arrival and
> maybe if it is regarding some content or some other topic?)6. is there a
> open log of OTRS operators, where we can see when they got the flag, a link
> to the request and how many queue they are handling?
> I think it's enough for now.
>
> Alex
>Il lunedì 20 luglio 2020, 00:01:56 CEST, effe iets anders <
> effeietsand...@gmail.com> ha scritto:
>
>  On Sun, Jul 19, 2020 at 7:55 AM Andy Mabbett 
> wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 19 Jul 2020 at 09:03, effe iets anders  >
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > I rather have
> > > that people make their assumptions explicit so that you have an
> > opportunity
> > > to clarify, and use that as the basis for further conversation.
> >
> > You seem to be assuming - wrongly - that I have made assumptions which
> > I have not made explicit.
> >
> > Ironically, you have not explicitly stated your assumption.
> >
> > > My reading of this discussion is that there is a lot of 'secrecy'
> assumed
> >
> > No secrecy is being assumed. Too much secrecy is being observed.
> >
> > > where it is probably more a lack of existence of policies in the way
> Andy
> > > would like them to exist. This is a known problem with OTRS.
> >
> > It may well be that some policies that should exist, do not, or are
> > ''de facto'' without being written down. But until we see a
> > comprehensive list of those that do exist and are written, how can we
> > know?
> >
> > > I feel comfortable sharing that the set of OTRS-wide 'policies' that is
> > on
> > > the 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system

2020-07-19 Thread Alessandro Marchetti via Wikimedia-l
 I am now quite confused. Are we supposed to ask very specific questions about 
OTRS hoping to get an answer because if the questions are too generic for sure 
we will never get a lot of answers? is that the general idea?

ok if it helps, here are some of them
1. are OTRS policies categorized somehow? is there a page with instruction with 
how to handle mails from private companies, from people, mails of legal issues, 
mail about copyright etc2. how are OTRS agents reviewed? is it a peer-review 
process? is it regularly done?3. do we have a policy that impose a minimal 
constant activity on content-reòated platform to keep OTRS flag? 
4. how can a normal user file a request to deflag another operator?5. is there 
a open log of OTRS requests, some place where minimal information related to a 
ticket can be disclosed (for example the date of arrival and maybe if it is 
regarding some content or some other topic?)6. is there a open log of OTRS 
operators, where we can see when they got the flag, a link to the request and 
how many queue they are handling?
I think it's enough for now.

Alex
   Il lunedì 20 luglio 2020, 00:01:56 CEST, effe iets anders 
 ha scritto:  
 
 On Sun, Jul 19, 2020 at 7:55 AM Andy Mabbett 
wrote:

> On Sun, 19 Jul 2020 at 09:03, effe iets anders 
> wrote:
> >
> > I rather have
> > that people make their assumptions explicit so that you have an
> opportunity
> > to clarify, and use that as the basis for further conversation.
>
> You seem to be assuming - wrongly - that I have made assumptions which
> I have not made explicit.
>
> Ironically, you have not explicitly stated your assumption.
>
> > My reading of this discussion is that there is a lot of 'secrecy' assumed
>
> No secrecy is being assumed. Too much secrecy is being observed.
>
> > where it is probably more a lack of existence of policies in the way Andy
> > would like them to exist. This is a known problem with OTRS.
>
> It may well be that some policies that should exist, do not, or are
> ''de facto'' without being written down. But until we see a
> comprehensive list of those that do exist and are written, how can we
> know?
>
> > I feel comfortable sharing that the set of OTRS-wide 'policies' that is
> on
> > the wiki, is probably of little interest to this matter.
>
> I am very interested in seeing all those 'policies'; as others have
> said they are.
>
> As noted earlier in this thread, I do not see how I could be any more
> clear about my wish to see them.
>
> > This is why I
> > noted that Jonatan's response could be misleading, because it implies all
> > kind of secrecy that doesn't exist.
>
> It stated, not implied, that "the Confidentiality Agreement all OTRS
> agents sign" prevented him from answering some of the questions asked
> on-wiki in February, and quoted at the start of this thread.
>
> > There are actually a few policies
> > linked at [[m:OTRS ]], that are
> > simply copied there (Access, Activity policies).
>
> That page, and those linked from it, do not answer the questions to
> which I have already referred.
>
> > There is some stuff about
> > privacy, confidentiality and how to deal with mailing lists. Imho nothing
> > that exciting.
>
> Perhaps not exciting to you; but I and others argue that such content
> should nonetheless be public. We have been told that OTRS agents are
> discussing the matter on their private email and IRC channels, but
> then... Nothing.
>
> > OTRS is an immensely diverse system, and I don't think it's helpful to
> try
> > to analyze that with overly broad questions.
>
> I do not accept that questions such as, for example:
>
>    5 how is OTRS overseen, and who by?
>
>    7 what is the process for the community to remove an
>      individual's OTRS permissions, if they fail to uphold
>      or abide by policy?
>
>    9 which individuals can make someone an OTRS agent,
>      or remove their permissions?
>
>    10 how are the individuals in #9 appointed and overseen?
>
> are "overly broad"; but if you think they are, how would you narrow their
> focus?
>
>
First of all: you're framing my words and taking them out of context. I'm
not going to waste further energy on that.

Answering that would require me to actually understand what the underlying
issue is that you want to solve. I've given up on that.

Lodewijk


> --
> Andy Mabbett
> @pigsonthewing
> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system

2020-07-19 Thread effe iets anders
On Sun, Jul 19, 2020 at 7:55 AM Andy Mabbett 
wrote:

> On Sun, 19 Jul 2020 at 09:03, effe iets anders 
> wrote:
> >
> > I rather have
> > that people make their assumptions explicit so that you have an
> opportunity
> > to clarify, and use that as the basis for further conversation.
>
> You seem to be assuming - wrongly - that I have made assumptions which
> I have not made explicit.
>
> Ironically, you have not explicitly stated your assumption.
>
> > My reading of this discussion is that there is a lot of 'secrecy' assumed
>
> No secrecy is being assumed. Too much secrecy is being observed.
>
> > where it is probably more a lack of existence of policies in the way Andy
> > would like them to exist. This is a known problem with OTRS.
>
> It may well be that some policies that should exist, do not, or are
> ''de facto'' without being written down. But until we see a
> comprehensive list of those that do exist and are written, how can we
> know?
>
> > I feel comfortable sharing that the set of OTRS-wide 'policies' that is
> on
> > the wiki, is probably of little interest to this matter.
>
> I am very interested in seeing all those 'policies'; as others have
> said they are.
>
> As noted earlier in this thread, I do not see how I could be any more
> clear about my wish to see them.
>
> > This is why I
> > noted that Jonatan's response could be misleading, because it implies all
> > kind of secrecy that doesn't exist.
>
> It stated, not implied, that "the Confidentiality Agreement all OTRS
> agents sign" prevented him from answering some of the questions asked
> on-wiki in February, and quoted at the start of this thread.
>
> > There are actually a few policies
> > linked at [[m:OTRS ]], that are
> > simply copied there (Access, Activity policies).
>
> That page, and those linked from it, do not answer the questions to
> which I have already referred.
>
> > There is some stuff about
> > privacy, confidentiality and how to deal with mailing lists. Imho nothing
> > that exciting.
>
> Perhaps not exciting to you; but I and others argue that such content
> should nonetheless be public. We have been told that OTRS agents are
> discussing the matter on their private email and IRC channels, but
> then... Nothing.
>
> > OTRS is an immensely diverse system, and I don't think it's helpful to
> try
> > to analyze that with overly broad questions.
>
> I do not accept that questions such as, for example:
>
>5 how is OTRS overseen, and who by?
>
>7 what is the process for the community to remove an
>   individual's OTRS permissions, if they fail to uphold
>   or abide by policy?
>
>9 which individuals can make someone an OTRS agent,
>   or remove their permissions?
>
>10 how are the individuals in #9 appointed and overseen?
>
> are "overly broad"; but if you think they are, how would you narrow their
> focus?
>
>
First of all: you're framing my words and taking them out of context. I'm
not going to waste further energy on that.

Answering that would require me to actually understand what the underlying
issue is that you want to solve. I've given up on that.

Lodewijk


> --
> Andy Mabbett
> @pigsonthewing
> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Language Showcase, July 2020

2020-07-19 Thread Jan Ainali
Has this also been announced anywhere on-wiki?

Best,
Jan Ainali


Den sön 19 juli 2020 kl 14:34 skrev Amir E. Aharoni <
amir.ahar...@mail.huji.ac.il>:

> Hello,
>
> This is an announcement about a new installment of the Language Showcase, a
> series of presentations about various aspects of language diversity and its
> connection to Wikimedia Projects.
>
> This next installment will deal with the translatewiki website, the
> Translate extension in general, the latest technical updates in both of
> them, and some upcoming projects.
>
> This session is going to be broadcast over Zoom, and a recording will be
> published for later viewing.
>
> Please read below for the event details, including local time, joining
> links and do let us know if you have any questions.
>
> Thank you!
>
> Amir
>
> == Details ==
>
> # Event: Language Showcase #6
>
> # When: July 22, 2020 (Wednesday) at 13:00 UTC (check local time
> https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?iso=20200722T1300 )
>
> # Where:
>
> Join Zoom Meeting
> https://wikimedia.zoom.us/j/99585961221
>
> Meeting ID: 995 8596 1221
>
> # Agenda:
>
> The translatewiki website, the Translate extension in general, the latest
> technical updates in both of them, and some upcoming projects.
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system

2020-07-19 Thread Andy Mabbett
On Sun, 19 Jul 2020 at 09:03, effe iets anders  wrote:
>
> I rather have
> that people make their assumptions explicit so that you have an opportunity
> to clarify, and use that as the basis for further conversation.

You seem to be assuming - wrongly - that I have made assumptions which
I have not made explicit.

Ironically, you have not explicitly stated your assumption.

> My reading of this discussion is that there is a lot of 'secrecy' assumed

No secrecy is being assumed. Too much secrecy is being observed.

> where it is probably more a lack of existence of policies in the way Andy
> would like them to exist. This is a known problem with OTRS.

It may well be that some policies that should exist, do not, or are
''de facto'' without being written down. But until we see a
comprehensive list of those that do exist and are written, how can we
know?

> I feel comfortable sharing that the set of OTRS-wide 'policies' that is on
> the wiki, is probably of little interest to this matter.

I am very interested in seeing all those 'policies'; as others have
said they are.

As noted earlier in this thread, I do not see how I could be any more
clear about my wish to see them.

> This is why I
> noted that Jonatan's response could be misleading, because it implies all
> kind of secrecy that doesn't exist.

It stated, not implied, that "the Confidentiality Agreement all OTRS
agents sign" prevented him from answering some of the questions asked
on-wiki in February, and quoted at the start of this thread.

> There are actually a few policies
> linked at [[m:OTRS ]], that are
> simply copied there (Access, Activity policies).

That page, and those linked from it, do not answer the questions to
which I have already referred.

> There is some stuff about
> privacy, confidentiality and how to deal with mailing lists. Imho nothing
> that exciting.

Perhaps not exciting to you; but I and others argue that such content
should nonetheless be public. We have been told that OTRS agents are
discussing the matter on their private email and IRC channels, but
then... Nothing.

> OTRS is an immensely diverse system, and I don't think it's helpful to try
> to analyze that with overly broad questions.

I do not accept that questions such as, for example:

   5 how is OTRS overseen, and who by?

   7 what is the process for the community to remove an
  individual's OTRS permissions, if they fail to uphold
  or abide by policy?

   9 which individuals can make someone an OTRS agent,
  or remove their permissions?

   10 how are the individuals in #9 appointed and overseen?

are "overly broad"; but if you think they are, how would you narrow their focus?

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

___
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Mediawiki-i18n] Language Showcase, July 2020

2020-07-19 Thread Asaf Bartov
Will there be a written summary (of the technical updates, in particular)
for those who would miss or won't make time for the presentation?

   A.

Asaf Bartov (he/him/his)

Senior Program Officer, Emerging Wikimedia Communities

Wikimedia Foundation 

Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the
sum of all knowledge. Help us make it a reality!
https://donate.wikimedia.org


On Sun, Jul 19, 2020 at 3:34 PM Amir E. Aharoni <
amir.ahar...@mail.huji.ac.il> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> This is an announcement about a new installment of the Language Showcase,
> a series of presentations about various aspects of language diversity and
> its connection to Wikimedia Projects.
>
> This next installment will deal with the translatewiki website, the
> Translate extension in general, the latest technical updates in both of
> them, and some upcoming projects.
>
> This session is going to be broadcast over Zoom, and a recording will be
> published for later viewing.
>
> Please read below for the event details, including local time, joining
> links and do let us know if you have any questions.
>
> Thank you!
>
> Amir
>
> == Details ==
>
> # Event: Language Showcase #6
>
> # When: July 22, 2020 (Wednesday) at 13:00 UTC (check local time
> https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?iso=20200722T1300 )
>
> # Where:
>
> Join Zoom Meeting
> https://wikimedia.zoom.us/j/99585961221
>
> Meeting ID: 995 8596 1221
>
> # Agenda:
>
> The translatewiki website, the Translate extension in general, the latest
> technical updates in both of them, and some upcoming projects.
> ___
> Mediawiki-i18n mailing list
> mediawiki-i...@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-i18n
>
___
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[Wikimedia-l] Language Showcase, July 2020

2020-07-19 Thread Amir E. Aharoni
Hello,

This is an announcement about a new installment of the Language Showcase, a
series of presentations about various aspects of language diversity and its
connection to Wikimedia Projects.

This next installment will deal with the translatewiki website, the
Translate extension in general, the latest technical updates in both of
them, and some upcoming projects.

This session is going to be broadcast over Zoom, and a recording will be
published for later viewing.

Please read below for the event details, including local time, joining
links and do let us know if you have any questions.

Thank you!

Amir

== Details ==

# Event: Language Showcase #6

# When: July 22, 2020 (Wednesday) at 13:00 UTC (check local time
https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?iso=20200722T1300 )

# Where:

Join Zoom Meeting
https://wikimedia.zoom.us/j/99585961221

Meeting ID: 995 8596 1221

# Agenda:

The translatewiki website, the Translate extension in general, the latest
technical updates in both of them, and some upcoming projects.
___
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system

2020-07-19 Thread effe iets anders
We're dealing with a diverse community here, and at the same time people
often want to imply information without making it explicit. I rather have
that people make their assumptions explicit so that you have an opportunity
to clarify, and use that as the basis for further conversation.

My reading of this discussion is that there is a lot of 'secrecy' assumed,
where it is probably more a lack of existence of policies in the way Andy
would like them to exist. This is a known problem with OTRS.

I feel comfortable sharing that the set of OTRS-wide 'policies' that is on
the wiki, is probably of little interest to this matter. This is why I
noted that Jonatan's response could be misleading, because it implies all
kind of secrecy that doesn't exist. There are actually a few policies
linked at [[m:OTRS ]], that are
simply copied there (Access, Activity policies). There is some stuff about
privacy, confidentiality and how to deal with mailing lists. Imho nothing
that exciting.
There is plenty of other 'stuff' on that wiki - which may or may not have
to be confidential. I wouldn't be against someone combing through that and
looking what can be published - at their own peril. The point is, nobody
seems willing or able to do that. These pages have accumulated over the
years, and it's simply not going to help anyone to triplicate that effort.
I'm not fundamentally against it, I just don't think it's a good use of
time and energy. I for sure ain't gonna do that, even if you paid me for
it.

OTRS is an immensely diverse system, and I don't think it's helpful to try
to analyze that with overly broad questions. I suspect you could spend a
few years worth of research on understanding it. That is why I tried to get
at the bottom of what Andy actually wants, so that I can try to help with
that. Given that Andy seems unwilling to make the questions narrower (my
interpretation) - that ends this conversation on my side, as I have little
more to contribute.

Lodewijk

On Sat, Jul 18, 2020 at 9:25 AM Peter Southwood <
peter.southw...@telkomsa.net> wrote:

> Seems to me that if someone does not specify a motivation, we leave it as
> that - no motivation. It you want to know what it is, you ask. You may get
> an answer, but sometimes it is not particularly relevant, as the question
> may be worth asking for whatever reason because the answer could be useful
> anyway.
> This strikes me as one of those questions. I would be interested to know
> the answers, because they would be illuminating and useful. It does not
> really matter to me what Andy was thinking about at the time other than
> wanting an answer to a reasonable, neutrally expressed question about
> something I considered should be freely available somewhere in the system.
> What was surprising is how long it has taken to get what little information
> has been forthcoming, but that has little bearing on why the question was
> asked in the first place.
> Cheers,
> Peter
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On
> Behalf Of Pete Forsyth
> Sent: 17 July 2020 23:17
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system
>
> Andy, I agree with you on the substance -- that we should get to a place
> where there are clearly articulated policies, with widespread buy-in, that
> are reliably adhered to.
>
> It's the interpersonal stuff that I feel is distracting in a public
> discussion. If you feel it's worthwhile to talk that stuff through, I'd be
> happy to do so offlist. But I won't discuss it further on this list, which
> amounts to asking our colleagues in the Wikimedia world to endure something
> they don't need to. I've already told you I regret my mistaken remark about
> your intentions, so if you like, we could leave it at that.
>
> Anyway, for the list -- what would you propose as a next step that you or I
> could take, without relying on anybody else in the short term? Can you
> think of anything? Or does that strike you as completely impossible? I am
> rather skeptical that this particular 20-post thread has moved any hearts
> or minds (but perhaps you have reason to disagree with that - ?)
>
> -Pete
> --
> [[User:Peteforsyth]]
>
> On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 12:41 PM Andy Mabbett 
> wrote:
>
> > On Fri, 17 Jul 2020 at 17:19, Pete Forsyth 
> wrote:
> >
> > > Since it seems
> > > that multiple people are misunderstanding you on this point, I wonder
> > > whether there's anything you could do to express your views on this
> point
> > > more clearly.
> >
> > Here is the entire post I made to Commons:OTRS/Noticeboard on 27
> February:
> >
> > #~#~#~#~#~#~#~#~#~#~#
> >
> > We need answers to the following questions (some asked, but not
> > answered, above, some arising from that discussion):
> >
> > 1. what are OTRS' rules and policies?
> > 2. where are those rules and policies documented, and why are they not
> > public?
> > 3. where are