Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice

2020-09-10 Thread effe iets anders
Hi Lukas, I appreciate you opening up on this. I have a hard time following the line of argument. I can appreciate that it can be stressful to see someone generalize opposition to this extent, and I dont think it is helpful to the conversation, because it basically rejects all solutions out of

[Wikimedia-l] [feedback requested] Taxonomy of knowledge gaps

2020-09-10 Thread Leila Zia
Hi all, I hope this email finds you well. I'm reaching out to let you know that the Research team [1] at the Wikimedia Foundation has been working on developing a taxonomy of knowledge gaps for the Wikimedia projects. We now have the first draft of the taxonomy ready and we're seeking your input

[Wikimedia-l] New board of Wikimedia Chile / Nuevo directorio de Wikimedia Chile

2020-09-10 Thread Rocío Consales
[*Spanish below*] Comrades: I hope everyone is in good health. I write to inform you of the update of the Wikimedia Chile board. I have submitted my resignation to the presidency, since I obtained a scholarship to study in Spain. The new president of WMCL is Carlos Figueroa, whom the whole team

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice

2020-09-10 Thread Aron Manning
I'd like to thank the list administrators for: * their transparency in handling this moderation request * the clarity in describing how to and how not to criticize * for not banning Dan but patiently giving clear guidelines While I don't find Dan's language as offensive as to be banworthy, it is

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice

2020-09-10 Thread Lukas Mezger
Hello, As one of the list subscribers who contacted the list moderators about the messages in question, please let me second the sentiment that this list should welcome discourse that is honest and frank while remaining constructive and civil. Being subscribed to this list can be stressful for

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A Universal Code of Conduct draft for review

2020-09-10 Thread Asaf Bartov
Mr. Szymborski, I understand you have very little faith in the Wikimedia Foundation, and are upset about some past decisions and statements it has made. As I already wrote above, you are welcome to express that criticism so long as you manage to remain civil, which includes avoiding vulgarity.

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A Universal Code of Conduct draft for review

2020-09-10 Thread Dan Szymborski
Sure, WMF running roughshod over the community is something that doesn't happen. I must be imagining the events that led to the community open letter on renaming, which featured nearly a thousand individual endorsers and 72 community affiliates.

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A Universal Code of Conduct draft for review

2020-09-10 Thread Dan Szymborski
I'm not "confused" at all. Nor do I have any willingness to be "educated" by you. I reject your argument and I will reiterate that nothing I said would be in violation of any UCoC in existence. This kind of condescending talking-down-to is far more insulting than anything I said. Perhaps you

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A Universal Code of Conduct draft for review

2020-09-10 Thread Dan Szymborski
I strongly disagree. There's no "reasonable person" standard in which anything I said would be found offensive. I'm frequently sought out by professors as a *mentor* for journalism students and we talk about issues such as this. I'm no shock jock. If anything, this spell highlights one of the

[Wikimedia-l] [Covid-19] Introducing a new risk assessment tool and guidelines for in person gatherings

2020-09-10 Thread Janeen Uzzell
Hi all, Last month, Katherine shared with you a preview of the work that the Events team has been leading on resources to support in-person gatherings. We have seen more countries shift restrictions on in-person events, and we want to respond to those changing realities for communities that live

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice

2020-09-10 Thread Peter Southwood
Is the objection to the words he used or to the way he used them? Cheers, Peter -Original Message- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Asaf Bartov Sent: 09 September 2020 21:57 To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A Universal Code of Conduct draft for review

2020-09-10 Thread Peter Southwood
For a UVoC to be helpful, it would have to be sufficiently clear about what is unacceptable, and why it is unacceptable, and would itself have to be sufficiently clear and acceptable to be seen as fair by the communities who would be bound by it. This is not easy to do, and the talk page

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A Universal Code of Conduct draft for review

2020-09-10 Thread Peter Southwood
Anders, I think you are referring to jargon. I agree that it should be avoided in the interests of clarity and ease of reliable translation. Cheers, Peter -Original Message- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Anders Wennersten Sent: 10

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A Universal Code of Conduct draft for review

2020-09-10 Thread Anders Wennersten
I want to echo Jackies two mail The community for svwp is not so big and complicated issues on conduct are uncommon. But when they occur we often get caught in argument like " you who claim to decide over svwp CoC are just a small kabal of some 10-120 admins, you are unrepresentative and the

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A Universal Code of Conduct draft for review

2020-09-10 Thread Jackie
Dan, I am so glad you have given us a real-world example as to how a Universal Code of Conduct would be super helpful. It would provide you with a clear understanding of how your comments impacted others. It wasn't just your use of the word "flatulence" (which, funny enough, I had to reference

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A Universal Code of Conduct draft for review

2020-09-10 Thread Joseph Seddon
Wikipedia has been a third tier social media platform since its inception. Luckily we are better known for being an encyclopedia. On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 10:31 AM Dan Szymborski wrote: > I am absolutely flabbergasted that a generic reference of an organization > to flatulence, something we see

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice

2020-09-10 Thread Peter Southwood
You read my mind... P -Original Message- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Gnangarra Sent: 10 September 2020 13:50 To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice one measure of good judgement would those decline the

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice

2020-09-10 Thread Gnangarra
one measure of good judgement would those decline the opportunity to be a list administrator :D On Thu, 10 Sep 2020 at 19:41, Peter Southwood wrote: > Good judgement is often such a subjective thing, Everyone thinks they have > it. A bit like the Dunning-Kruger effect. > Cheers, > Peter > >

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A Universal Code of Conduct draft for review

2020-09-10 Thread Peter Southwood
Are those things not already covered by the terms of use? Cheers, Peter -Original Message- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Amir Sarabadani Sent: 10 September 2020 13:22 To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] A Universal Code

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice

2020-09-10 Thread Peter Southwood
Good judgement is often such a subjective thing, Everyone thinks they have it. A bit like the Dunning-Kruger effect. Cheers, Peter -Original Message- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Asaf Bartov Sent: 10 September 2020 12:55 To: Wikimedia

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice

2020-09-10 Thread Asaf Bartov
On Thu, 10 Sep 2020, 14:05 Fæ wrote: > > Who are the list mods? The current list admins are John Vandenberg, Shani Evenstein, and I. Unfortunately, this is not made clear at > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l That is indeed unfortunate! It *used* to list explicit

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A Universal Code of Conduct draft for review

2020-09-10 Thread Amir Sarabadani
I just want to say while I agree IMO there's a growing disconnect in some parts of WMF with the communities but it's not happening here. In fact it's also the other way around. Some people in communities and some communities in general have been growing too disconnected from the framework they are

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice

2020-09-10 Thread
Hi Asaf, Who are the list mods? Unfortunately, this is not made clear at https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l In line with what you say here, a track record that, say, included deliberately misusing administrator or checkuser tools on Wikimedia projects, should certainly be

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice

2020-09-10 Thread Asaf Bartov
I would say first and foremost, good judgment. As measured by the person's track record on-wiki and on this list. Preferring to err on the side of caution, people under community sanctions, or who have themselves been moderated for on-list misconduct, need not apply. A. On Thu, 10 Sep 2020,

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice

2020-09-10 Thread Peter Southwood
Asaf, What are the criteria for eligibility as moderator for this list? Cheers, Peter -Original Message- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Asaf Bartov Sent: 10 September 2020 11:07 To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l]

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A Universal Code of Conduct draft for review

2020-09-10 Thread Asaf Bartov
As you can see, Dan, your choice of imagery, appreciated and encouraged in less buttoned-up journalism, is offensive to some subscribers here. Your strong criticism of the Foundation, on the other hand, is perfectly acceptable. As a professional wordsmith, I am confident you can continue to

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice

2020-09-10 Thread
I'd be happy to help out. I have set up and managed several lists related to our Wikimedia LGBT+ community. As a well-known commentator about the WMF and safe spaces, including running a global RFC that held to account a WMF board member, it might add a useful perceived balance to moderation

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A Universal Code of Conduct draft for review

2020-09-10 Thread Dan Szymborski
I am absolutely flabbergasted that a generic reference of an organization to flatulence, something we see in rated-G television isn't considered "collegial" enough yet the actions that the WMF has taken over the last 18 months, many of which were pushed by people on this list *are* considered

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Invitation to apply to Outreachy Round 21 with Wikimedia!

2020-09-10 Thread James Salsman
Is the Foundation willing to fund pronunciation remediation this winter? On Wednesday, September 9, 2020, Srishti Sethi wrote: > Hello Chris, > > Yes, mentoring organizations provide funding for the Outreachy internships. > For the upcoming winter round, WMF will be funding up to 6 projects. >

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice

2020-09-10 Thread Isaac Olatunde
Hello Asaf I am a list administrator in at least 5 Wikimedia mailing lists and I believe I have the relevant experience in this area. I'd be happy to help out if you need more hands. Regards Isaac On Thu, 10 Sep 2020, 10:08 Asaf Bartov, wrote: > Indeed, there is a potential conflict of

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice

2020-09-10 Thread Asaf Bartov
Indeed, there is a potential conflict of interest here. This is why I strongly tend to leniency, *especially* when unacceptable discourse coincides with criticism of the Foundation. In this case, we received requests from two list subscribers to moderate Dan. We did so, while underscoring that

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice

2020-09-10 Thread Peter Southwood
Is there a record somewhere of what unacceptable language was used and against what standard it was judged to be unacceptable? Cheers, Peter -Original Message- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Asaf Bartov Sent: 09 September 2020 21:57 To:

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A Universal Code of Conduct draft for review

2020-09-10 Thread Natacha Rault via Wikimedia-l
Hello, A code of conduct id something many of us have asked the WMF to write for many years. We are asking the WMF to take an active part in stopping abusive behaviors in our community. On fr wiki, many admins say they are tired of conflicts and that they did not enroll to deal with them. A