Re: [Wikimedia-l] Foundation and affiliates disclosing salaries on job ads & the effect of this on workplace equity

2020-09-11 Thread Michael Peel
This seems to be a restriction against employers asking for someone’s salary history, not against including the expected salary range in a job advert. Having occasionally looked at WMF job adverts, it’s always seemed odd to me that the salary ranges haven’t been mentioned at all (my occasional

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [feedback requested] Taxonomy of knowledge gaps

2020-09-11 Thread Samuel Klein
Wow. Thanks for doing this. a) did you mine emijrp's subconscious yet? b) what meta-gaps are you aware of (areas where the gap analysis itself might have blind spots) c) this seems appropriate for a wikijournal of knowledge...  On Thu, Sep

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A Universal Code of Conduct draft for review

2020-09-11 Thread Paul J. Weiss
To expand on the last part of my previous post, one of the things that Peter and other posters are doing that is problematic in my eyes is phrasing their opinions as fact. It is quite clear to me why Dan was put on moderation. So it is a false statement to say that "this is patently unclear". I

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A Universal Code of Conduct draft for review

2020-09-11 Thread Paul J. Weiss
I for one very much appreciate that the moderators put Dan on moderation. I support sanctions for insulting and rude behavior. Peter--if you are looking for exact, quantitative criteria, you aren't going to get it. This is about impact of communication on the receiver, not specific words used by

[Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Clinic #010 - Tue Sep 15th 13:00UTC - Abstract Wikipedia

2020-09-11 Thread Asaf Bartov
Dear Wikimedians, This is an update from the Wikimedia Clinics series.[1] On Tuesday, September 15th, at 13:00 UTC[2], we will be hosting Wikimedia Clinic #010.[3] The scheduled segment this time would be an introduction to Abstract Wikipedia, featuring project founder Denny Vrandečić himself!

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A Universal Code of Conduct draft for review

2020-09-11 Thread Natacha Rault via Wikimedia-l
{{trigger warning : French joke included}} Dear Pete, let me explain why this is problematic. First I am sorry to say there is no hidden agenda or awful witchery plot to uncover including WMF influence. I have myself severely criticised the WMF in the course of the branding process (and was

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice

2020-09-11 Thread Asaf Bartov
On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 6:50 PM Dan Szymborski wrote: > As long as people are going to continue to talk about me and imply that I'm > actually *harassing* people, then I feel I have a right to defend myself. > Nobody ever denied you that right. I brought up that the UCoC standard is a

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice

2020-09-11 Thread David Gerard
If we didn't want serious discussions to come to this mailing list, or have discussions on it taken seriously, this thread would so far be a great example for not doing so. Thankfully, it won't actually succeed in derailing the discussions. - d. ___

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice

2020-09-11 Thread Dan Szymborski
As long as people are going to continue to talk about me and imply that I'm actually *harassing* people, then I feel I have a right to defend myself. No, clear warnings weren't given. I compared the action of a *non-profit board* tangentially to *flatulence* and I was immediately talked down to

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Foundation and affiliates disclosing salaries on job ads & the effect of this on workplace equity

2020-09-11 Thread Gergő Tisza
On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 2:44 AM Chris Keating wrote: > There's a campaign(1) for nonprofits to disclose the salaries, or at least > salary ranges, on job ads. > (...) > I know practices vary within the movement - I believe the WMF never > mentions salaries on ads, and I don't know whether the

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Foundation and affiliates disclosing salaries on job ads & the effect of this on workplace equity

2020-09-11 Thread Gergő Tisza
On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 6:25 AM Gnangarra wrote: > I'd hope that the WMF when hiring people in what was considered third world > or in areas of socially deprived wages that it would pay at least to US > standards as a matter of principle that employees doing similar jobs should > basically be

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice

2020-09-11 Thread Robert Fernandez
This is all so predictably tiresome. Any attempt to center a discussion forum on its intended purpose is hijacked by people outraged that they are deprived of their own personal soapboxes. I see this matter is spilling over into multiple threads. I propose that objectors start a new thread to

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Foundation and affiliates disclosing salaries on job ads & the effect of this on workplace equity

2020-09-11 Thread Gnangarra
I'd hope that the WMF when hiring people in what was considered third world or in areas of socially deprived wages that it would pay at least to US standards as a matter of principle that employees doing similar jobs should basically be treated equally regardless of location. That where the pay

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Foundation and affiliates disclosing salaries on job ads & the effect of this on workplace equity

2020-09-11 Thread Peter Southwood
On one side it would be nice to pay equal rate for equal work, on the other would be equal personal benefit for equal work. Then there is the economics of getting value for money, and the politics of diversity. It is a tricky issue. Cheers, P -Original Message- From: Wikimedia-l

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A Universal Code of Conduct draft for review

2020-09-11 Thread Peter Southwood
There was no clear statement of "this is the problematic text and this is why it is considered unacceptable", which is a thing that I consider a reasonable expectation, as it is possible to learn from it, understand it, pass constructive criticism or agreement, and use as it a precedent for

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Foundation and affiliates disclosing salaries on job ads & the effect of this on workplace equity

2020-09-11 Thread Nathan
I'm sure it will vary considerably. Does that matter? When measuring internal equity, do we measure based on how expensive of a lifestyle each employee leads? On Fri, Sep 11, 2020, 7:46 AM Peter Southwood wrote: > Should they? Their cost of living expenses may vary considerably. > Cheers, >

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Foundation and affiliates disclosing salaries on job ads & the effect of this on workplace equity

2020-09-11 Thread Chris Keating
Glad to see this is prompting some discussion! Dan - Asking candidates for their current salary is prohibited in San Francisco > as of July 2018 [1] which means that, as a San Francisco based > organisation, the Foundation will undoubtedly not be doing this. > Very glad to hear it! > > There

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice

2020-09-11 Thread Quim Gil
Hi, On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 4:08 AM effe iets anders wrote: > I would love us to be more gentle, but at the same time it is also > important to recognize diversity in character, expression and opinion. Well, precisely? :) "To recognize diversity in character, expression and opinion" is

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Foundation and affiliates disclosing salaries on job ads & the effect of this on workplace equity

2020-09-11 Thread Peter Southwood
Should they? Their cost of living expenses may vary considerably. Cheers, Peter -Original Message- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Nathan Sent: 11 September 2020 13:39 To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Foundation and

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Foundation and affiliates disclosing salaries on job ads & the effect of this on workplace equity

2020-09-11 Thread Nathan
Dan, Shouldn't two candidates for the same position for the same company get roughly the same salary, regardless of where they live? On Fri, Sep 11, 2020, 7:00 AM Dan Garry (Deskana) wrote: > Asking candidates for their current salary is prohibited in San Francisco > as of July 2018 [1] which

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A Universal Code of Conduct draft for review

2020-09-11 Thread Peter Southwood
I would call this fair comment, and parallels can be drawn between how the UCoC may be used and the current discussion. Without clear statement on why a decision is made it cannot be properly understood, accepted or improved, and we end up in the usual spiral of speculation, accusation and bad

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A Universal Code of Conduct draft for review

2020-09-11 Thread Peter Southwood
In that case, can we please have an explanation of exactly how the relevant text was found to be inappropriate, as this is patently unclear, and apparently the reason for all this debate. I have my own speculation, but as it is speculation, it would be inappropriate to publicise unless there is no

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A Universal Code of Conduct draft for review

2020-09-11 Thread Benjamin Ikuta
Thanks for the reply. I took a look at it and found it terribly vague. Depending on subjective interpretation, I can imagine it being used to justify whatever judgement is to be made. I am no more enlightened. > On Sep 11, 2020, at 4:05 AM, Alphos OGame wrote: > > Hello everyone, >

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A Universal Code of Conduct draft for review

2020-09-11 Thread Alphos OGame
Hello everyone, What I want to read : comments on the UCoC. What I don't want to read : a barrage of *insert adjective, whether laudative or criticizing* reply after reply after reply after reply on the comments of one or more of the subscribers of this list. I understand the initial comments

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Foundation and affiliates disclosing salaries on job ads & the effect of this on workplace equity

2020-09-11 Thread Dan Garry (Deskana)
Asking candidates for their current salary is prohibited in San Francisco as of July 2018 [1] which means that, as a San Francisco based organisation, the Foundation will undoubtedly not be doing this. To my knowledge, this wasn't done by the Foundation before either, but we can confidently state

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Foundation and affiliates disclosing salaries on job ads & the effect of this on workplace equity

2020-09-11 Thread Jan Ainali
This is a very interesting topic and I am intrigued by how the Humanitarian OpenStreetMap Team has their salary models transparent on their website: https://www.hotosm.org/salaries Perhaps there is something to copy from that as well? /Jan Ainali Den fre 11 sep. 2020 kl 11:44 skrev Chris

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A Universal Code of Conduct draft for review

2020-09-11 Thread Quim Gil
On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 9:31 AM Benjamin Ikuta wrote: > > > Please, enlighten me. > Here is an alternative suggestion. Check the UCoC draft and see whether you see room for improvement or disagree with anything specific in it. This is a productive way to compare your personal understanding of

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A Universal Code of Conduct draft for review

2020-09-11 Thread Adam Wight
Is there somewhere we can refer to the list of offensive and unacceptable expressions, and how they are determined? There were been several explanations already.  It's possible to use mild words in a cruel way, for example a father telling their child "You've always had beans for brains." 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A Universal Code of Conduct draft for review

2020-09-11 Thread Asaf Bartov
No, it is not "forbidden words" that are the problem, and we have no intention of maintaining a list. We expect list subscribers to maintain civil discourse, which does include avoiding vulgarity, and expressing oneself with respect to both one's interlocutors (or addressees of criticism) and the

[Wikimedia-l] Foundation and affiliates disclosing salaries on job ads & the effect of this on workplace equity

2020-09-11 Thread Chris Keating
Good morning everyone! There's a campaign(1) for nonprofits to disclose the salaries, or at least salary ranges, on job ads. An increasing body of evidence(2) shows that practices like not disclosing expected pay, and requiring applicants to disclose their current salary, is harmful to equity in

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A Universal Code of Conduct draft for review

2020-09-11 Thread Peter Southwood
Is there somewhere we can refer to the list of offensive and unacceptable expressions, and how they are determined? Cheers, Peter -Original Message- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Anders Wennersten Sent: 11 September 2020 10:33 To:

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A Universal Code of Conduct draft for review

2020-09-11 Thread Peter Southwood
It is not yet clear that the use of the words "fart" or "flatulence" are the actual issue. Context matters, but we do not know the full context yet, as the reasons have not been explained, leaving us with little option but to speculate. We are experiencing a failure of communication as much, or

Re: [Wikimedia-l] New board of Wikimedia Chile / Nuevo directorio de Wikimedia Chile

2020-09-11 Thread Peter Southwood
Good luck to all of you P -Original Message- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Rocío Consales Sent: 10 September 2020 20:39 To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: [Wikimedia-l] New board of Wikimedia Chile / Nuevo directorio de

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice

2020-09-11 Thread Peter Southwood
Lukas, If you could explain exactly what your objection was, it lets all of us understand better where the line was drawn. That allows discussion to be focused on reality rather than speculation, which could get us closer to an acceptable code of conduct, instead of fuelling paranoia. Cheers,

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A Universal Code of Conduct draft for review

2020-09-11 Thread Anders Wennersten
There are many of us on this list who have given the feedback we find that expression offensive and unacceptable. Do not forget the readers of this list comes from may different cultures and if you and the people close to you find it "acceptable" it is not a valid judgment for all, and why do

[Wikimedia-l] New Wikimedia Chile Board

2020-09-11 Thread Carlos Figueroa Rojas
Dear all, Due to the resignation of the chair Rocío Consales, a new Wikimedia Chile board was appointed for the remainder of the term 2019-2021. The positions were filled as follows: - Carlos Figueroa, Chair; - Marco Correa: Vicechair; - Claudio Loader, Secretary; - Osmar Valdebenito, Treasurer;

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A Universal Code of Conduct draft for review

2020-09-11 Thread Benjamin Ikuta
Please, enlighten me. On Sep 10, 2020, at 11:39 PM, Ziko van Dijk wrote: > Am Fr., 11. Sept. 2020 um 08:07 Uhr schrieb Benjamin Ikuta > : >> >> Is there some context that makes this much worse than it seems, or do I have >> a deeply flawed understanding of civility? > > Well, are you

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A Universal Code of Conduct draft for review

2020-09-11 Thread Todd Allen
Except, apparently, if someone says "fart". For godsakes, that's about the mildest of language you could ask for. I could use far stronger about this whole farce. If the "UCoC" means that people can't say "fart" because someone might get their feewings hurted, then I've very well been right to

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A Universal Code of Conduct draft for review

2020-09-11 Thread Yaroslav Blanter
Hi Natacha, I am not opposed to UCoC but I am afraid you have unrealistic expectations. We do have serious behavioral problems in the big communities. One of them, for example, is that the general tone of discussions is very aggressive and prevents some categories of users, for example, women,

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A Universal Code of Conduct draft for review

2020-09-11 Thread Ziko van Dijk
Am Fr., 11. Sept. 2020 um 08:07 Uhr schrieb Benjamin Ikuta : > > Is there some context that makes this much worse than it seems, or do I have > a deeply flawed understanding of civility? Well, are you open to consider the possibility that the latter might theoretically be the case, at least

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A Universal Code of Conduct draft for review

2020-09-11 Thread Benjamin Ikuta
Am I reading this correctly? You were moderated for calling the UCoC flatulence? Is there some context that makes this much worse than it seems, or do I have a deeply flawed understanding of civility? On Sep 9, 2020, at 2:21 PM, Dan Szymborski wrote: > That's OK. I have much bigger