[Wikimedia-l] Re: Community Wishlist Survey 2022 is coming. Help us and prepare

[Gnangarra]

>
> Core challenges like Commons stability + capacity deserve their own
> thread! I believe the wishlist is traditionally for something else.


There is nowhere else to raise these issue, especially for people like me
who are photographers not a software and tech person. I know the
phabricator exists and comment there occasionally but again things get
close because its too hard.

Tools are great, new tools can sometimes improve other times they generate
more issues.

I get it I'd rather get together with a bunch of photographers, talk gear,
test gear, and look to outdo each other with the best shots.  Wishlist, the
Hack-a-thons serve this need for the tech community. we get to offer up
some ideas on what could make things easier for us.  The wish list also the
one time of the year where everyone is listen to needs.

The list of issues on Commons are staggering and Commons feeds into every
other project, it was created to support media uploads.  As part of COT for
2021 I was also involved in uploading of all the session recordings, and I
answered many questions about why was it taking so long, will captions be
added all I could say was Commons wasnt letting us upload large files,
Video2Commons, and VideoConverter kept falling over we couldnt get answers.
We found work arounds mostly by paying for 3rd commercial software to do
the conversion to webm then hoping uploadwizard would work. We even tried
to find server side uploading support but despite instructions on how that
isnt supported.

I see no need to create new tools when the underlying systems are failing,
its clear indication that we as community have lost our way.  The wishlist
get what little funding the WMF is willing to spend on tech.  As some who
has participated in the wishlist over the years, tried to get funding to
fix items like QRpedia,  the thing I see is that this isnt working the tech
teams arent keeping up with the core functions of projects so forget about
extra toys.  Every other aspect of the community has had reviews been first
being paused, the whole community has been consulted, and then its been
realigned to suit future needs.   Its all for nothing if we dont drill down
to the core of the tech that the whole thing relies upon,  if that means we
need to spend on extra people then the cost is justifiable because every
dollar of the hundred million stashed away in future funds is worthless if
the systems keeps failing or like commons appears to have reached
completely collapses.

We dont need wishes, or votes to decide whats important when theres no way
to contribute.


On Thu, 30 Dec 2021 at 23:50, Samuel Klein  wrote:

> Szymon: neat, thanks.  How do past suggestions carry over?
>
> We should definitely make more use of community-curated priority lists
> (annotated with how separable / hard they are; where they sit on the 'new
> solution <--> pay off tech debt' spectrum).  And see if we can support a
> broader range of technical hubs + community groups tackling some of them.
>
> Core challenges like Commons stability + capacity deserve their own
> thread! I believe the wishlist is traditionally for something else.
>
> NBB: An interesting idea (below).  It would be good for us to develop
> patterns w/ more shared creative leeway for experimenting with a collective
> call to action around major initiatives.  Mozilla has some approaches to
> this. Including bounties, grants, outreach campaigns to recruit new
> contributors, awards for essential tools, workshops to train people in
> related toolchains so they can help move the space forward.
>
> S.
>
> On Thu, Dec 30, 2021 at 6:52 AM  wrote:
>
>> This is a proposal that would need to be included in next year's funding
>> plan. It also would involve an obligation for the other teams within the
>> Foundation.
>>
>> **Part 1: Funding redistribution and Big Ticket team**
>> I propose that we stand-up a 2nd community wishlist team... to handle the
>> "Big Ticket" items, beyond the capacities of the current team.
>> **Part 2: blocked item obligations**
>>
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-- 
GN.
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: Uplifting the multimedia stack (was: Community Wishlist Survery)

[Strainu]

> So where is the best current place to discuss scaling Commons, and all
that entails?

My impression is that we don't have one. All we hear is "it needs to be
planned", but there is no transparency on what that planning involves or
when it actually happens.

> I'd be surprised if the bottleneck were people or budget

The main problem I see is that we end up in this kind of situation. Scaling
and bug fixing critical features should be part of the annual budget. Each
line of code deployed to production wikis should have an owner and
associated maintenance budget each year. Without this, the team will not
even commit reviews - see the thread on wikitech a few months back where a
volunteer programmer willing to work on Upload Wizard was basically told
"We will not review your code. Go fork."

> Some examples from recent discussions

Also improvements to the Upload Wizard. There are quite a few open items in
Phab on this.

I really hope you will have better luck than others with bringing this
issue up in the priority list for next year - multimedia support is growing
more outdated by the minute.

Strainu

Pe joi, 30 decembrie 2021, Samuel Klein  a scris:
> Separate thread.  I'm not sure which list is appropriate.
> ... but not all the way to sentience.
>
> The annual community wishlist survey (implemented by a small team,
possibly in isolation?) may not be the mechanism for prioritizing large
changes, but the latter also deserves a community-curated priority queue.
To complement the staff-maintained priorities in phab ~
> For core challenges (like Commons stability and capacity), I'd be
surprised if the bottleneck were people or budget.  We do need a shared
understanding of what issues are most important and most urgent, and how to
solve them. For instance, a way to turn Amir's recent email about the
problem (and related phab tickets) into a family of persistent,
implementable specs and proposals and their articulated obstacles.
> An issue tracker like phab is good for tracking the progress and
dependencies of agreed-upon tasks, but weak for discussing what is
important, what we know about it, how to address it. And weak for
discussing ecosystem-design issues that are important and need persistent
updating but don't have a simple checklist of steps.
> So where is the best current place to discuss scaling Commons, and all
that entails?  Some examples from recent discussions (most from the wm-l
thread below):
> - Uploads: Support for large file uploads / Keeping bulk upload tools
online
> - Video: Debugging + rolling out the videojs player
> - Formats: Adding support for CML and dozens of other common high-demand
file formats
> - Thumbs: Updating thumbor and librsvg
> - Search: WCQS still down, noauth option wanted for tools
> - General: Finish implementing redesign of the image table
>
> SJ
> On Wed, Dec 29, 2021 at 6:26 AM Amir Sarabadani 
wrote:
>>
>> I'm not debating your note. It is very valid that we lack proper support
for multimedia stack. I myself wrote a detailed rant on how broken it is
[1] but three notes:
>>  - Fixing something like this takes time, you need to assign the budget
for it (which means it has to be done during the annual planning) and if
gets approved, you need to start it with the fiscal year (meaning July
2022) and then hire (meaning, write JD, do recruitment, interview lots of
people, get them hired) which can take from several months to years. Once
they are hired, you need to onboard them and let them learn about our
technical infrastructure which takes at least two good months. Software
engineering is not magic, it takes time, blood and sweat. [2]
>>  - Making another team focus on multimedia requires changes in planning,
budget, OKR, etc. etc. Are we sure moving the focus of teams is a good
idea? Most teams are already focusing on vital parts of wikimedia and
changing the focus will turn this into a whack-a-mole game where we fix
multimedia but now we have critical issues in security or performance.
>>  - Voting Wishlist survey is a good band-aid in the meantime. To at
least address the worst parts for now.
>>
>> I don't understand your point tbh, either you think it's a good idea to
make requests for improvements in multimedia in the wishlist survey or you
think it's not. If you think it's not, then it's offtopic to this thread.
>> [1]
https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/WMPZHMXSLQJ6GONAVTFLDFFMPNJDVORS/
>> [2] There is a classic book in this topic called "The Mythical Man-month"
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 29, 2021 at 11:41 AM Gnangarra  wrote:
>>>
>>> we have to vote for regular maintenance and support for
essential functions like uploading files which is the core mission of
Wikimedia Commons
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[Wikimedia-l] Uplifting the multimedia stack (was: Community Wishlist Survery)

[Samuel Klein]

Separate thread.  I'm not sure which list is appropriate.
*... but not all the way to sentience
.*

The annual community wishlist survey (implemented by a small team, possibly
in isolation?) may not be the mechanism for prioritizing large changes, but
the latter also deserves a community-curated priority queue.  To complement
the staff-maintained priorities in phab ~

For core challenges (like Commons stability and capacity), I'd be surprised
if the bottleneck were people or budget.  We do need a shared understanding
of what issues are most important and most urgent, and how to solve them.
For instance, a way to turn Amir's recent email about the problem (and
related phab tickets) into a family of persistent, implementable specs and
proposals and their articulated obstacles.

An issue tracker like phab is good for tracking the progress and
dependencies of agreed-upon tasks, but weak for discussing what is
important, what we know about it, how to address it. And weak for
discussing ecosystem-design issues that are important and need persistent
updating but don't have a simple checklist of steps.

So where is the best current place to discuss scaling Commons, and all that
entails?  Some examples from recent discussions (most from the wm-l thread
below):
- *Uploads*: Support for large file uploads / Keeping bulk upload tools
online
- *Video*: Debugging + rolling out the videojs
 player
- *Formats*: Adding support for CML
 and dozens of other
 common high-demand file formats
- *Thumbs*: Updating thumbor 
and librsvg 
- *Search*: WCQS still  down
, noauth option
 wanted for tools
- *General*: Finish implementing redesign
 of the image table

SJ

On Wed, Dec 29, 2021 at 6:26 AM Amir Sarabadani  wrote:

> I'm not debating your note. It is very valid that we lack proper support
> for multimedia stack. I myself wrote a detailed rant on how broken it is
> [1] but three notes:
>  - Fixing something like this takes time, you need to assign the budget
> for it (which means it has to be done during the annual planning) and if
> gets approved, you need to start it with the fiscal year (meaning July
> 2022) and then hire (meaning, write JD, do recruitment, interview lots of
> people, get them hired) which can take from several months to years. Once
> they are hired, you need to onboard them and let them learn about our
> technical infrastructure which takes at least two good months. Software
> engineering is not magic, it takes time, blood and sweat. [2]
>  - Making another team focus on multimedia requires changes in planning,
> budget, OKR, etc. etc. Are we sure moving the focus of teams is a good
> idea? Most teams are already focusing on vital parts of wikimedia and
> changing the focus will turn this into a whack-a-mole game where we fix
> multimedia but now we have critical issues in security or performance.
>  - Voting Wishlist survey is a good band-aid in the meantime. To at least
> address the worst parts for now.
>
> I don't understand your point tbh, either you think it's a good idea to
> make requests for improvements in multimedia in the wishlist survey or you
> think it's not. If you think it's not, then it's offtopic to this thread.
>
> [1]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/WMPZHMXSLQJ6GONAVTFLDFFMPNJDVORS/
> [2] There is a classic book in this topic called "The Mythical Man-month"
>
> On Wed, Dec 29, 2021 at 11:41 AM Gnangarra  wrote:
>
>> we have to vote for regular maintenance and support for
>> essential functions like uploading files which is the core mission of
>> Wikimedia Commons
>>
>
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: Community Wishlist Survey 2022 is coming. Help us and prepare

[Samuel Klein]

Szymon: neat, thanks.  How do past suggestions carry over?

We should definitely make more use of community-curated priority lists
(annotated with how separable / hard they are; where they sit on the 'new
solution <--> pay off tech debt' spectrum).  And see if we can support a
broader range of technical hubs + community groups tackling some of them.

Core challenges like Commons stability + capacity deserve their own thread!
I believe the wishlist is traditionally for something else.

NBB: An interesting idea (below).  It would be good for us to develop
patterns w/ more shared creative leeway for experimenting with a collective
call to action around major initiatives.  Mozilla has some approaches to
this. Including bounties, grants, outreach campaigns to recruit new
contributors, awards for essential tools, workshops to train people in
related toolchains so they can help move the space forward.

S.

On Thu, Dec 30, 2021 at 6:52 AM  wrote:

> This is a proposal that would need to be included in next year's funding
> plan. It also would involve an obligation for the other teams within the
> Foundation.
>
> **Part 1: Funding redistribution and Big Ticket team**
> I propose that we stand-up a 2nd community wishlist team... to handle the
> "Big Ticket" items, beyond the capacities of the current team.
> **Part 2: blocked item obligations**
>
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: Community Wishlist Survey 2022 is coming. Help us and prepare

[Andreas Kolbe]

Hi Nosebagbear and all,


On Thu, Dec 30, 2021 at 11:52 AM  wrote:

> Going off the average salaries, and the standard non-salary overhead for
> equivalent organisations, it should support a 16-18 person team.
>


This calculation would benefit from some WMF salary data. In its 2019 Form
990[1] (the most recent one available), the WMF reported a "Salaries, other
compensation, employee benefits" figure of $55,634,913 for a total of 291
employees.

This works out at an average of *$191,185.27 per employee*. (The WMF cost
per employee actually increased by 38% in the space of four years.[2])

It's not cheap, especially when compared to, say, the Internet Archive,
also based in San Francisco, which in its 2019 Form 990[3] reported
$10,924,995 for 169 employees, an average of *$64,644.94 per employee* –
about one-third the WMF figure. (The Internet Archive, which has genuinely
struggled to break even in recent years, is actually crucial to Wikipedia,
as it helps prevent link rot, and could really do with donations.)

For the Electronic Frontier Foundation, to give another example of a
non-profit based in San Francisco, the 2019 Form 990 data yield an average
of *$121,646,73 per employee*[4] – less than two-thirds the WMF figure.

WMF salary costs have increased further since 2019. The 2020/21 financial
statements[5] released earlier this month gave a "Salaries and wages"
figure of $67,857,676, an increase of 22% over the year prior.

Assuming a total of around 300 employees for that year, based on the number
of employees shown in this April 2021 archive of the Staff and Contractors
page,[6] I estimate the annual cost per WMF employee is now around $225K
(I'm happy to be corrected on this if any of my figures or assumptions
should turn out to be mistaken).

Contractors (176 listed on the current WMF staff and contractors page[7])
are somewhat cheaper, of course.

Andreas


[1]
https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/200049703/202101319349300105/full
[2]
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_salaries#Salaries,_other_compensation,_employee_benefits_and_number_of_employees_as_reported_in_Form_990
[3]
https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/943242767/202013219349323056/full
[4]
https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/43091431/202121339349303472/full
[5]
https://foundation.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=File:Wikimedia_Foundation_FY2020-2021_Audit_Report.pdf=5
[6] https://archive.today/rFGMv
[7] https://wikimediafoundation.org/role/staff-contractors/


This team's purpose is to handle the "Big Ticket" items, beyond the
> capacities of the current team. It will probably be 1-2 main items a year,
> with the ability to handle small(er) items from the main wishlist if they
> finish slightly early.
>
> The current team could then alternate annually between
> Wikipedia/Wikidata/Commons items and small-project items.
>
> **Part 2: blocked item obligations**
>
> By far and away the two most common reasons for wishlist items being
> declined are "too large a project" (hopefully handled by part 1) and "in
> another team's scope". This aims to handle the 2nd issue with a "co-operate
> or takeup" mandate.
>
> Where another team is "in the way" of a wishlist item, it should be
> obligated to fulfill that item itself within 24 months, or co-operate and
> utilise the Wishlist team's resources to fulfill it while avoiding
> disruption from separate workflows.
> ___
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>
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: Community Wishlist Survey 2022 is coming. Help us and prepare

[nosebagbear]

This is a proposal that would need to be included in next year's funding plan. 
It also would involve an obligation for the other teams within the Foundation.

**Part 1: Funding redistribution and Big Ticket team**
This year, we (that is, the WMF using movement funds) spent a huge amount of 
money ($4.5 million) just directly donating to external knowledge equity funds. 

This was done without Community review, or indeed, approval of the concept. A 
look through our email archives will show it was hardly a popular use of our 
money. 

I propose that we stand-up a 2nd community wishlist team. Going off the average 
salaries, and the standard non-salary overhead for equivalent organisations, it 
should support a 16-18 person team.

This team's purpose is to handle the "Big Ticket" items, beyond the capacities 
of the current team. It will probably be 1-2 main items a year, with the 
ability to handle small(er) items from the main wishlist if they finish 
slightly early. 

The current team could then alternate annually between 
Wikipedia/Wikidata/Commons items and small-project items. 

**Part 2: blocked item obligations**

By far and away the two most common reasons for wishlist items being declined 
are "too large a project" (hopefully handled by part 1) and "in another team's 
scope". This aims to handle the 2nd issue with a "co-operate or takeup" mandate.

Where another team is "in the way" of a wishlist item, it should be obligated 
to fulfill that item itself within 24 months, or co-operate and utilise the 
Wishlist team's resources to fulfill it while avoiding disruption from separate 
workflows.
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: Community Wishlist Survey 2022 is coming. Help us and prepare

[Gnangarra]

The wishlist are things the WMF puts resources to including staff time

On Thu, 30 Dec 2021 at 17:46, Peter Southwood 
wrote:

> Is the community wishlist not for for projects run by volunteers?
> Volunteers do what they choose, employees do what they are paid for.
> Keeping the Wikis functional should be the work of employees and the WMF.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Peter
>
>
>
> *From:* Gnangarra [mailto:gnanga...@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* 29 December 2021 07:37
> *To:* Wikimedia Mailing List
> *Subject:* [Wikimedia-l] Re: Community Wishlist Survey 2022 is coming.
> Help us and prepare
>
>
>
> Kaya
>
>
> Instead of putting resources into making more tools, how about putting
> more resources into sustainability. For a large part of the last 12 months
> Commons has been unable to upload large files, bulk upload tools falling
> over have been hampering efforts to engage with GLAMs.   Every other aspect
> of the WMF work has been put on hold while reviews into the systems take
> place. I think it's time to put new development on hold or at least limit
> priority and capacity then focus efforts on updating and upgrading existing
> tools. If those tools cant be fixed, rewrite them from scratch
>
>
>
> Gnangarra
>
>
>
> On Wed, 29 Dec 2021 at 12:08, Szymon Grabarczuk 
> wrote:
>
> The Community Wishlist Survey 2022
>  starts
> in less than two weeks (Monday 10 January 2022, 18:00 UTC
> ).
> We, the team organizing the Survey, need your help.
>
>- Translate important messages
>
> 
>and/or
>- Promote the Survey
>
>among anyone and everyone you know who has an account on wiki. Promote the
>Survey on social media, via instant messaging apps, in other groups and
>chats, in your WikiProject, Wikimedia affiliate - wherever contributors
>with registered accounts may be.
>- You may also start thinking about ideas for technical improvements
>or even writing them down in the CWS sandbox
>.
>
> *Why are we asking?*
>
>- We have improved the documentation
>. It's
>friendlier and easier to use. This will mean little if it's only in 
> English.
>- Thousands of volunteers haven't participated in the Survey yet. We'd
>like to improve that, too. Three years ago, 1387 people participated. Last
>year, there were 1773 of them. We hope that in the upcoming edition, there
>will be even more - if you help us with translations. Also, you are better
>than us in contacting Wikimedians outside of wikis. We have prepared some
>images to share. More to come.
>
> *What is the Community Wishlist Survey?*
>
>
>
> It's an annual survey that allows contributors to the Wikimedia projects
> to propose and vote for tools and platform improvements. Long years of
> experience in editing or technical skills are not required.
>
>
>
> Thank you for your time and attention. To those who have participated in
> the Survey - many thanks for your dedication.
>
>
>
> See you in January!
>
>
>
> *Szymon Grabarczuk *(he/him)
>
> Community Relations Specialist
>
> Wikimedia Foundation
>
> ___
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>
>
>
>
> --
>
> GN.
>
> * 2021*
>
> *Celebrating 20 years of Wikipedia*
>
>
>
>
>
> Wikimania: *Error! Filename not specified.**Error! Filename not
> specified.**Error! Filename not specified.**Error! Filename not
> specified.**Error! Filename not specified.*
> https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Gnangarra
>
> Noongarpedia: *Error! Filename not specified.**Error! Filename not
> specified.**Error! Filename not specified.**Error! Filename not
> specified.**Error! Filename not specified.**Error! Filename not
> specified.*https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page
> My print shop: *Error! Filename not specified.**Error! Filename not
> specified.**Error! Filename not specified.**Error! Filename not
> specified.**Error! Filename not specified.*
> https://www.redbubble.com/people/Gnangarra/shop?asc=u
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 
>
> Virus-free. www.avg.com
> 

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Community Wishlist Survey 2022 is coming. Help us and prepare

[Peter Southwood]

Is the community wishlist not for for projects run by volunteers? Volunteers do 
what they choose, employees do what they are paid for. Keeping the Wikis 
functional should be the work of employees and the WMF. 

Cheers,

Peter

 

From: Gnangarra [mailto:gnanga...@gmail.com] 
Sent: 29 December 2021 07:37
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: Community Wishlist Survey 2022 is coming. Help us 
and prepare

 

Kaya


Instead of putting resources into making more tools, how about putting more 
resources into sustainability. For a large part of the last 12 months Commons 
has been unable to upload large files, bulk upload tools falling over have been 
hampering efforts to engage with GLAMs.   Every other aspect of the WMF work 
has been put on hold while reviews into the systems take place. I think it's 
time to put new development on hold or at least limit priority and capacity 
then focus efforts on updating and upgrading existing tools. If those tools 
cant be fixed, rewrite them from scratch

 

Gnangarra

 

On Wed, 29 Dec 2021 at 12:08, Szymon Grabarczuk  
wrote:

The Community Wishlist Survey 2022 
  starts in 
less than two weeks (Monday 10 January 2022, 18:00 UTC 
 ). 
We, the team organizing the Survey, need your help.

*   Translate important messages 

  and/or
*   Promote the Survey 
  among 
anyone and everyone you know who has an account on wiki. Promote the Survey on 
social media, via instant messaging apps, in other groups and chats, in your 
WikiProject, Wikimedia affiliate - wherever contributors with registered 
accounts may be.
*   You may also start thinking about ideas for technical improvements or 
even writing them down in the CWS sandbox 
 .

Why are we asking? 

*   We have improved the documentation 
 . It's 
friendlier and easier to use. This will mean little if it's only in English.
*   Thousands of volunteers haven't participated in the Survey yet. We'd 
like to improve that, too. Three years ago, 1387 people participated. Last 
year, there were 1773 of them. We hope that in the upcoming edition, there will 
be even more - if you help us with translations. Also, you are better than us 
in contacting Wikimedians outside of wikis. We have prepared some images to 
share. More to come.

What is the Community Wishlist Survey? 

 

It's an annual survey that allows contributors to the Wikimedia projects to 
propose and vote for tools and platform improvements. Long years of experience 
in editing or technical skills are not required. 

 

Thank you for your time and attention. To those who have participated in the 
Survey - many thanks for your dedication.

 

See you in January!

 


  

 

Szymon Grabarczuk (he/him)

Community Relations Specialist

Wikimedia Foundation 

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-- 

GN.

 2021

Celebrating 20 years of Wikipedia

 

 

Wikimania: Error! Filename not specified.Error! Filename not specified.Error! 
Filename not specified.Error! Filename not specified.Error! Filename not 
specified.  
https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Gnangarra

Noongarpedia: Error! Filename not specified.Error! Filename not 
specified.Error! Filename not specified.Error! Filename not specified.Error! 
Filename not specified.Error! Filename not specified. 
 
https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page
My print shop: Error! Filename not specified.Error! Filename not 
specified.Error! Filename not specified.Error! Filename not specified.Error! 
Filename not specified.  
https://www.redbubble.com/people/Gnangarra/shop?asc=u

 

 


 

 

Virus-free.