[Wikimedia-l] Re: Leadership Development Working Group is ready for community feedback!

[Rae Adimer via Wikimedia-l]

Hey Andreas,

On the topic of maps vs. territory...it's not beneficial to look at this
from the perspective of the WMF being a single unitary entity with a switch
that has to pick between planning and doing. This project is specifically
to develop a leadership development plan that the Community Development
team, a team which has some great people on it and a serious possibility
for good in supporting volunteers, can use to do their work effectively.
I'd much prefer that their plan be written by a diverse working group of
volunteers from across affiliates and administrative roles, than for it to
be made internally.

My point in my initial response was that the cost of this investment in
process will provide significant benefit to the Community Development
team's work over the next best option. Yes, this is not being implemented
immediately, but given the fact that the Community Development team is
tasked with working towards the "investing in skill and leadership
development" Movement Strategy recommendation, and that successful
implementation does require planning, this is the best possible way of
going about that. If you have specific feedback about how we can improve
our efficiency in this or content of the work so far, I (and the LDWG
overall) am very much open to discussion, but disagreement over the
Movement Strategy recommendation itself is not best in this venue.
Personally, given my experiences in functionary roles watching and
responding to project takeovers, hostile "leadership", etc. across
Wikimedia communities, I am really happy that there is this push to invest
in leadership resources for existing and future communities that, if we
design it right, can do a lot of good.

As for pre-imposed leadership, that's not what this is about. In your
initial comment you mentioned that there were tons of definitions out there
for leadership, and in this comment you mention that Wikipedia does not
like leadership. *That is why we made the definition.* Good Wikimedia
leadership, to the extent that word is even applicable, is far closer to
facilitation, mentorship, and resource-building than any idea of an actual
thought leader or designator of tasks. This was not something unanimously
agreed on in the working group, but it's something I tried (mostly
successfully) to ensure was reflected in the draft definition. I see this
not as an attempt to impose top-down leaders, but to guide the creation of
resources for future community facilitators, admins, etc. who can promote
the organic growth of Wikimedia communities in line with our movement's
values.

Best regards,
Rae


User:Vermont  on Wikimedia
projects
they/them/theirs (why pronouns matter
)


On Sat, Sep 17, 2022 at 2:07 PM Andreas Kolbe  wrote:

> Dear Ramzy,
>
> I wanted to acknowledge your eloquent post (for anyone who hasn't read it,
> please do – DeepL and Google Translation do a really decent job), and in
> particular your concern about the lack of representation of South East
> Asian communities in movement governance.
>
> But I would also like to share one thought about the importance of
> leadership: it's that I think Wikimedians are not particularly keen on
> having leaders to follow. Projects like Wikipedia, Wiktionary and so on
> grew precisely because there *was* no leadership. They provided a space
> free of pre-imposed leadership.
>
> This is what attracted people: you could do something, contribute
> something, without having to ask an authority figure for permission. People
> were *trusted*, not *led*.
>
> This being so, I believe leadership is of limited value in terms of
> growing participation in line with this volunteer model.
>
> Kind regards,
> Andreas
>
> On Sat, Sep 17, 2022 at 12:27 PM Ramzy Muliawan 
> wrote:
>
>> Pertama-tama saya ingin mengucapkan terima kasih yang setinggi-tingginya
>> kepada Kelompok Kerja Pembinaan Kepemimpinan yang telah menghasilkan
>> definisi ini. Saya pikir ini satu langkah maju yang diperlukan untuk
>> mendorong implementasi rekomendasi Strategi Gerakan mengenai penanaman
>> modal dalam pembinaan keterampilan dan kepemimpinan.
>>
>> Berkebalikan dengan respon-respon negatif yang diterima oleh prakarsa
>> ini, saya rasa mendefinisikan bentuk kepemimpinan yang diperlukan oleh
>> gerakan Wikimedia secara luas adalah sesuatu yang sudah semestinya kita
>> miliki, sebagai sebuah gerakan antarabangsa yang memiliki jaringan dan
>> struktur tata kelola yang rumit, saling terkait, dan mengandalkan waktu
>> para sukarelawan yang berharga.
>>
>> Diskusi mengenai pembinaan kepemimpinan terutama sekali bersifat mendesak
>> untuk wilayah gerakan Wikimedia yang tidak pernah, atau kurang sekali,
>> terwakili dalam tata kelola gerakan secara global. Saya berbicara tentang
>> wilayah asal saya, rantau Asia Tenggara dan Pasifik, yang memiliki tingkat
>> keberagaman proyek Wikimedia yang sangat tinggi, barangkali 

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Leadership Development Working Group is ready for community feedback!

[Andreas Kolbe]

Dear Ramzy,

I wanted to acknowledge your eloquent post (for anyone who hasn't read it,
please do – DeepL and Google Translation do a really decent job), and in
particular your concern about the lack of representation of South East
Asian communities in movement governance.

But I would also like to share one thought about the importance of
leadership: it's that I think Wikimedians are not particularly keen on
having leaders to follow. Projects like Wikipedia, Wiktionary and so on
grew precisely because there *was* no leadership. They provided a space
free of pre-imposed leadership.

This is what attracted people: you could do something, contribute
something, without having to ask an authority figure for permission. People
were *trusted*, not *led*.

This being so, I believe leadership is of limited value in terms of growing
participation in line with this volunteer model.

Kind regards,
Andreas

On Sat, Sep 17, 2022 at 12:27 PM Ramzy Muliawan 
wrote:

> Pertama-tama saya ingin mengucapkan terima kasih yang setinggi-tingginya
> kepada Kelompok Kerja Pembinaan Kepemimpinan yang telah menghasilkan
> definisi ini. Saya pikir ini satu langkah maju yang diperlukan untuk
> mendorong implementasi rekomendasi Strategi Gerakan mengenai penanaman
> modal dalam pembinaan keterampilan dan kepemimpinan.
>
> Berkebalikan dengan respon-respon negatif yang diterima oleh prakarsa ini,
> saya rasa mendefinisikan bentuk kepemimpinan yang diperlukan oleh gerakan
> Wikimedia secara luas adalah sesuatu yang sudah semestinya kita miliki,
> sebagai sebuah gerakan antarabangsa yang memiliki jaringan dan struktur
> tata kelola yang rumit, saling terkait, dan mengandalkan waktu para
> sukarelawan yang berharga.
>
> Diskusi mengenai pembinaan kepemimpinan terutama sekali bersifat mendesak
> untuk wilayah gerakan Wikimedia yang tidak pernah, atau kurang sekali,
> terwakili dalam tata kelola gerakan secara global. Saya berbicara tentang
> wilayah asal saya, rantau Asia Tenggara dan Pasifik, yang memiliki tingkat
> keberagaman proyek Wikimedia yang sangat tinggi, barangkali hanya dapat
> disaingi oleh beberapa wilayah lain dalam gerakan; organisasi-organisasi
> mitra lokal yang aktif; dan basis penyunting maupun pasar pembaca yang
> terus berkembang seiring dengan penetrasi Internet yang semakin mendalam.
> Meski wilayah ini memiliki status-status sedemikian, Wikimediawan/wati dari
> rantau Asia Tenggara tidak pernah ada yang berhasil duduk di Dewan Pengawas
> Yayasan Wikimedia, dan keterwakilan dari rantau ini sangat terbatas pada
> badan-badan tata kelola gerakan seperti Komite Afiliasi, Komite Bahasa,
> bahkan badan yang saat ini bertugas untuk merumuskan piagam gerakan. Hal
> ini tentu saja tidak dapat dijelaskan secara tunggal melalui "kecelakaan
> sejarah", tetapi akan jauh lebih mudah untuk melihatnya dari lensa
> kurangnya penanaman modal dan komitmen jangka panjang untuk urusan
> kepemimpinan ini.
>
> Kerja-kerja ini tidak akan selesai dalam waktu dekat, dan tidak akan
> menghasilkan suatu hasil akhir yang dapat memuaskan seluruh pihak yang
> memiliki kepentingan dalam gerakan Wikimedia. Namun, apa yang dapat kita
> lakukan tentu saja adalah mencoba terlebih dahulu. Masalah-masalah seperti
> yang saya sebutkan di atas, dalam konteks rantau asal saya namun juga saya
> tahu terjadi pada beberapa wilayah lain, tidak akan selesai dengan saling
> menuding dan mempermasalahkan apakah kerja-kerja ini perlu dilakukan atau
> tidak.
>
> Saya mengajak para Wikimediawan/wati yang memiliki perhatian khusus pada
> hal ini untuk turut serta membantu Kelompok Kerja dalam diskusi yang
> penting ini.
>
> On Sat, Sep 17, 2022, 14:29 Peter Southwood 
> wrote:
>
>> I, too, would appreciate such enlightenment, Cheers, Peter
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Andreas Kolbe [mailto:jayen...@gmail.com]
>> *Sent:* 16 September 2022 20:48
>> *To:* Wikimedia Mailing List
>> *Subject:* [Wikimedia-l] Re: Leadership Development Working Group is
>> ready for community feedback!
>>
>>
>>
>> Dear Ivan,
>>
>>
>>
>> I am very sorry, but I honestly don't understand what any of this is for,
>> and why the WMF is spending money on defining leadership – money collected
>> under the pretence that money is urgently needed to keep Wikipedia online –
>> given that community feedback to this initiative to date seems to be
>> largely negative.
>>
>>
>>
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Leadership_Development_Working_Group
>>
>>
>>
>> It is not like the world lacks definitions of leadership. Aren't we
>> spending donors' money to reinvent the wheel here?
>>
>>
>>
>> Could I refer back to an interesting thread Samuel Klein started a while
>> back, titled "Simplifying governance processes"?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/thread/7UVDBQTEWTR3ZNYLEP5TWAOVHF372OEL/#YRALVPPHAWMMATDUSUTZVBHG2CXOKAU6
>>
>>
>>
>> To me, at least, what Samuel and others said in that thread seemed to be
>> pertinent to initiatives like this one. Samuel 

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Leadership Development Working Group is ready for community feedback!

[Andreas Kolbe]

Hi Rae,

Thank you for taking the time to reply. It hasn't alleviated my concerns.

I am reminded of Alfred Korzybski, who stressed that "the word is not the
thing", that "the map is not the territory".

If we want to adopt his distinction of map and territory, then I see this
project as an effort focused on map making. Spending time and money to
imagine and color in a map of the future can be fun, but it's not as
important in my opinion as moving from A to B in the actual territory
today.

The best way to arrive at a bright future is to focus on what needs to be
done, or can be done, today – not on where we would like to be in two,
three or ten years' time. If you consistently do your best to respond to
the needs of the present, you build a strong future, step by step.
Wikipedia grew organically. Now it seems to me we are needlessly straining.

Maps are of limited use when there is no movement. As Gnangarra said the
other day here on this list, in what I thought was a very astute
post, "strategy started 7 years ago and yet we still haven't even reached
the implementation of anything."

To the extent that this characterisation is accurate – and the thread
started by Samuel, which is well worth revisiting, had many people
expressing similar ideas – it illustrates how investing energy into maps
can actually divert energy from making progress on the ground. And progress
has to happen in the territory, not the map, for the journey to be
successful.

An "investment in process" is precisely what Samuel was talking about when
he said: "Focus discussions on the decisions we need to resolve, not on
process. ... What challenges do [we] need to resolve this year?"

Best,
Andreas



On Fri, Sep 16, 2022 at 8:49 PM Rae Adimer via Wikimedia-l <
wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> wrote:

> Hey Andreas!
>
> Thank you for the thoughtful feedback. For context, I am a member of the
> LDWG, and a steward. We have two stews on the working group, a bunch of
> admins, and a bunch of affiliate organizers – it's an experientially
> diverse bunch.
>
> I applied for the LDWG in part because I have concerns about the
> efficiency of future capacity-building models. Accepting that leadership
> development is a movement strategy goal and likely to be involved in future
> actions related to the Movement Charter, I want it to be as effective as
> possible. In more specific terms, not simply an outgrowth of the high
> cost-per-new-editor edit-a-thon model which leaves unclear long-term
> benefit and doesn't put sufficient effort into developing effective
> community facilitators or long-term resources for editor onboarding and
> mentorship.
>
> The LDWG is not a stand-alone working group developing something no one
> will read, nor is it uninterested with the concerns of local editing
> communities. The plan we're working on will guide future capacity building
> activities on Wikimedia projects, and a good plan will positively affect
> the outcome of that capacity building.
>
> I understand the concerns questioning the benefit of a definition of
> leadership. It is a first step of sorts; it's difficult to work towards
> fostering good Wikimedia leadership without defining good Wikimedia
> leadership, a relatively idiosyncratic type of leadership that falls much
> closer to facilitation and mentorship than actually setting goals or
> "leading" in the traditional sense. From this definition, we can overview
> existing capacity building activities, their effectiveness, possibilities
> for improvement, and develop a plan with concrete and actionable
> recommendations to ensure that donor money spent towards leadership
> development is money well spent.
>
> This is an investment in process, not an investment in navel-gazing.
>
> I hope this has helped alleviate some of your concerns.
>
> Best regards,
> Rae
>
> 
> User:Vermont  on Wikimedia
> projects
> they/them/theirs (why pronouns matter
> )
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 16, 2022 at 3:05 PM Andreas Kolbe  wrote:
>
>> Dear Ivan,
>>
>> I am very sorry, but I honestly don't understand what any of this is for,
>> and why the WMF is spending money on defining leadership – money collected
>> under the pretence that money is urgently needed to keep Wikipedia online –
>> given that community feedback to this initiative to date seems to be
>> largely negative.
>>
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Leadership_Development_Working_Group
>>
>> It is not like the world lacks definitions of leadership. Aren't we
>> spending donors' money to reinvent the wheel here?
>>
>> Could I refer back to an interesting thread Samuel Klein started a while
>> back, titled "Simplifying governance processes"?
>>
>>
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/thread/7UVDBQTEWTR3ZNYLEP5TWAOVHF372OEL/#YRALVPPHAWMMATDUSUTZVBHG2CXOKAU6
>>
>> To me, at least, what Samuel and others said in that 

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Leadership Development Working Group is ready for community feedback!

[Ramzy Muliawan]

Pertama-tama saya ingin mengucapkan terima kasih yang setinggi-tingginya
kepada Kelompok Kerja Pembinaan Kepemimpinan yang telah menghasilkan
definisi ini. Saya pikir ini satu langkah maju yang diperlukan untuk
mendorong implementasi rekomendasi Strategi Gerakan mengenai penanaman
modal dalam pembinaan keterampilan dan kepemimpinan.

Berkebalikan dengan respon-respon negatif yang diterima oleh prakarsa ini,
saya rasa mendefinisikan bentuk kepemimpinan yang diperlukan oleh gerakan
Wikimedia secara luas adalah sesuatu yang sudah semestinya kita miliki,
sebagai sebuah gerakan antarabangsa yang memiliki jaringan dan struktur
tata kelola yang rumit, saling terkait, dan mengandalkan waktu para
sukarelawan yang berharga.

Diskusi mengenai pembinaan kepemimpinan terutama sekali bersifat mendesak
untuk wilayah gerakan Wikimedia yang tidak pernah, atau kurang sekali,
terwakili dalam tata kelola gerakan secara global. Saya berbicara tentang
wilayah asal saya, rantau Asia Tenggara dan Pasifik, yang memiliki tingkat
keberagaman proyek Wikimedia yang sangat tinggi, barangkali hanya dapat
disaingi oleh beberapa wilayah lain dalam gerakan; organisasi-organisasi
mitra lokal yang aktif; dan basis penyunting maupun pasar pembaca yang
terus berkembang seiring dengan penetrasi Internet yang semakin mendalam.
Meski wilayah ini memiliki status-status sedemikian, Wikimediawan/wati dari
rantau Asia Tenggara tidak pernah ada yang berhasil duduk di Dewan Pengawas
Yayasan Wikimedia, dan keterwakilan dari rantau ini sangat terbatas pada
badan-badan tata kelola gerakan seperti Komite Afiliasi, Komite Bahasa,
bahkan badan yang saat ini bertugas untuk merumuskan piagam gerakan. Hal
ini tentu saja tidak dapat dijelaskan secara tunggal melalui "kecelakaan
sejarah", tetapi akan jauh lebih mudah untuk melihatnya dari lensa
kurangnya penanaman modal dan komitmen jangka panjang untuk urusan
kepemimpinan ini.

Kerja-kerja ini tidak akan selesai dalam waktu dekat, dan tidak akan
menghasilkan suatu hasil akhir yang dapat memuaskan seluruh pihak yang
memiliki kepentingan dalam gerakan Wikimedia. Namun, apa yang dapat kita
lakukan tentu saja adalah mencoba terlebih dahulu. Masalah-masalah seperti
yang saya sebutkan di atas, dalam konteks rantau asal saya namun juga saya
tahu terjadi pada beberapa wilayah lain, tidak akan selesai dengan saling
menuding dan mempermasalahkan apakah kerja-kerja ini perlu dilakukan atau
tidak.

Saya mengajak para Wikimediawan/wati yang memiliki perhatian khusus pada
hal ini untuk turut serta membantu Kelompok Kerja dalam diskusi yang
penting ini.

On Sat, Sep 17, 2022, 14:29 Peter Southwood 
wrote:

> I, too, would appreciate such enlightenment, Cheers, Peter
>
>
>
> *From:* Andreas Kolbe [mailto:jayen...@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* 16 September 2022 20:48
> *To:* Wikimedia Mailing List
> *Subject:* [Wikimedia-l] Re: Leadership Development Working Group is
> ready for community feedback!
>
>
>
> Dear Ivan,
>
>
>
> I am very sorry, but I honestly don't understand what any of this is for,
> and why the WMF is spending money on defining leadership – money collected
> under the pretence that money is urgently needed to keep Wikipedia online –
> given that community feedback to this initiative to date seems to be
> largely negative.
>
>
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Leadership_Development_Working_Group
>
>
>
> It is not like the world lacks definitions of leadership. Aren't we
> spending donors' money to reinvent the wheel here?
>
>
>
> Could I refer back to an interesting thread Samuel Klein started a while
> back, titled "Simplifying governance processes"?
>
>
>
>
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/thread/7UVDBQTEWTR3ZNYLEP5TWAOVHF372OEL/#YRALVPPHAWMMATDUSUTZVBHG2CXOKAU6
>
>
>
> To me, at least, what Samuel and others said in that thread seemed to be
> pertinent to initiatives like this one. Samuel started by saying,
>
>
>
> "Dear Board (and all), The growing complexity of governance efforts is
> defeating us. Process creep is an existential threat for projects like ours
> – it is self-perpetuating if not actively curtailed, as it filters out
> people who dislike excess process. There's a reason 'bureaucrats' and
> 'stewards' have unglamorous titles. Global governance in particular seems
> to be suffering from this now. Let's try to scale it back!"
>
>
>
> He received no reply from the WMF, at least not here on this list where he
> posted.
>
>
>
> It seems to me we are spending a great deal of money to produce words –
> but not words in Wikipedia, Wiktionary, Wikisource etc., that the public
> enjoys and finds valuable, but words on Meta talking about ourselves in the
> best navel-gazing tradition.
>
>
>
> Now, maybe I have this all back to front and am simply clueless ... so if
> someone feels like enlightening me, please do!
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Andreas
>
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 16, 2022 at 4:33 PM Ivan Martínez  wrote:
>
> TL;DR: The draft leadership definition[1] prepared by the 

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Leadership Development Working Group is ready for community feedback!

[Peter Southwood]

I, too, would appreciate such enlightenment, Cheers, Peter

 

From: Andreas Kolbe [mailto:jayen...@gmail.com] 
Sent: 16 September 2022 20:48
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: Leadership Development Working Group is ready for 
community feedback!

 

Dear Ivan,

 

I am very sorry, but I honestly don't understand what any of this is for, and 
why the WMF is spending money on defining leadership – money collected under 
the pretence that money is urgently needed to keep Wikipedia online – given 
that community feedback to this initiative to date seems to be largely negative.

 

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Leadership_Development_Working_Group

 

It is not like the world lacks definitions of leadership. Aren't we spending 
donors' money to reinvent the wheel here?

 

Could I refer back to an interesting thread Samuel Klein started a while back, 
titled "Simplifying governance processes"? 

 

https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/thread/7UVDBQTEWTR3ZNYLEP5TWAOVHF372OEL/#YRALVPPHAWMMATDUSUTZVBHG2CXOKAU6

 

To me, at least, what Samuel and others said in that thread seemed to be 
pertinent to initiatives like this one. Samuel started by saying, 

 

"Dear Board (and all), The growing complexity of governance efforts is 
defeating us. Process creep is an existential threat for projects like ours – 
it is self-perpetuating if not actively curtailed, as it filters out people who 
dislike excess process. There's a reason 'bureaucrats' and 'stewards' have 
unglamorous titles. Global governance in particular seems to be suffering from 
this now. Let's try to scale it back!"

 

He received no reply from the WMF, at least not here on this list where he 
posted. 

 

It seems to me we are spending a great deal of money to produce words – but not 
words in Wikipedia, Wiktionary, Wikisource etc., that the public enjoys and 
finds valuable, but words on Meta talking about ourselves in the best 
navel-gazing tradition.

 

Now, maybe I have this all back to front and am simply clueless ... so if 
someone feels like enlightening me, please do!

 

Best,

Andreas 

 

On Fri, Sep 16, 2022 at 4:33 PM Ivan Martínez  wrote:

TL;DR: The draft leadership definition[1] prepared by the Leadership 
Development Working Group is ready for community feedback! Please share your 
feedback on Meta[2], the feedback form[3] or the Movement Strategy Forum[4]. 
You can also directly mail us at  leadershipworkinggr...@wikimedia.org. The 
feedback will be collected till October 6, 2022.  

 

Hello everyone!

 

I hope you are aware that the Leadership Development Working Group[5] has been 
working over the past few months to formulate and find ways to nurture the 
leadership of our movement. The Leadership Development Working Group (LDWG) is 
a group of Wikimedia volunteers representing different communities, languages, 
roles, and experiences. We are pleased to inform the community that our draft 
definition of leadership is now available for community feedback. This first 
draft definition of leadership was written after months of discussion, 
learning, and sharing from our community perspective. The Wikimedia Movement, 
which is by nature diverse and distinctive in its own way, is expressly 
addressed by this definition.

 

Please consider going through the definition and letting us know what you think 
by October 6, 2022. The draft definition includes a general definition of 
leadership and subcategories that elaborate on the actions, qualities, and 
outcomes of good leadership. 

 

There are many places where you can express your ideas, suggestions, and 
comments, such as the meta talk page[2], the feedback form[3], and Movement 
Strategy Forum Post[4]. You can also directly mail us at  
 
leadershipworkinggr...@wikimedia.org. 

 

You can check if the general definition, and the subcategories align with your 
idea of leadership in the movement. You can also try finding the gaps, maybe 
some qualities of a leader or anything else are missing in the draft definition 
or you can check if the definition applies to all cultural, linguistic, 
community or other contexts of the movement and share your thoughts with us.

 

Together, let's celebrate the movement's diverse and distinctive leadership! 

 

Cheers!

 

[1]  
 
Link to the draft definition on meta 

[2]  
 
Link to meta talk page 

[3]   Link to the feedback form

[4] 

  Link to the Movement Strategy Forum post 

[5]   
Link to the meta page of LDWG


 

-- 

Iván Martínez
Voluntario - Wikimedia México A.C.
User:ProtoplasmaKid