Re: [Wikimedia-l] The Wikipedia Gap

[Dennis During]

English Wiktionary has made a modest step toward ameliorating the FUll Text
On the Net bias by reducing for less-attested languages  the requirement
for three citations of a word in use to just one.  The result is more
coverage at somewhat greater risk of making a mistake in the entry
(misspelling, wrong definition, etc).  Similar tradeoffs must exist for
other wikis.  En.wikt tends to be more tolerant, if not exactly welcoming,
of contributors of entries in underrepresented languages, many of which do
not have their own wikis, than it is of would-be contributors of English
entries.

As I see it, What en.wikt has done seems reasonable within the scope of
what volunteers can do and are willing to do.  A dictionary with trained
linguists contributing has an offsetting bias toward preserving smaller
languages, which serve as data for linguistic theory.

In my opinion, we also have other biases.  We have a subject matter bias
toward computer, mathematics, chemistry, and linguistics jargon and against
jargon from other fields.  Our coverage of Afro-American Vernacular English
lags and is incomplete even for older terms.  Our definitions are often
worded for graduate students or at least college students.  We have an
antiquarian and literary bias as well.  I am certain that I am blind to
many other biases.

We would welcome constructive ideas about further steps or ideas on how
en.wikt could be a better resource.



On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 8:42 AM, Delirium delir...@hackish.org wrote:

 In terms of specific articles to create, there is also
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Missing_
 encyclopedic_articles

 That project collects articles that exist in wide range of other
 encyclopedias, but don't yet exist on Wikipedia. However that's not
 covering quite the same concerns as the systemic-bias discussion, since
 many of those encyclopedias themselves have similar biases. Nonetheless
 this kind of comparison can be useful to find specific gaps in coverage
 that, equally importantly, are actionable in the sense that at least one
 source to base an article on exists.

 -Mark


 On 12/9/13, 9:07 PM, Peter Coombe wrote:

 The English Wikipedia has attempted a (non-exhaustive) list at
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Systemic_bias

 Peter


 On 9 December 2013 07:35, Romaine Wiki romaine_w...@yahoo.com wrote:

  In various research and media articles is written that in several subject
 groups Wikipedia is missing a lot of articles and those groups are
 relatively unrepresented.

 How can we as Wikipedia get clear which subject groups are missing?

 How can we get lists of less represented subject groups and the articles
 in those groups?

 Let us get practical, ow can we fill the gap?


 Greetings,
 Romaine

 ___
 Wikimedia-l mailing list
 Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
 Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
 mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe

 ___
 Wikimedia-l mailing list
 Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
 Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
 mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe



 ___
 Wikimedia-l mailing list
 Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
 Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
 mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe




-- 
Dennis C. During

Dropbox is a free online storage service that I use. If you sign
uphttp://db.tt/vhM8bABUyou get 2.5 Gb of free online storage and I
get an extra .5 Gb.

1968, Taj Mahal http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taj_Mahal_%28musician%29,
“Good Morning Miss Brown” (song), in *The Natch'l Blues* (album): Good
morning Miss Brown / Mamma how do you do? / I said good morning Miss Brown
/ Mamma how do you do? / She say I'm feelin' fine and lookin' good / Maaan
what about you? /* I say I got the misery and the back ache baby / And my
feets hurtin' me when I walk *
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 
mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe

Re: [Wikimedia-l] SUL finalization update (no, for real this time)

[Dennis During]

Thanks for moving this close to completion.  I hope finalization goes well.

However, It found Special:UsersWhoWillBeRenamed totally useless at
Wiktionary, as I'm sure it is at any mature project.  Only 25 names appear
at time. On Wiktionary the first page only includes names using exclusively
exclamation marks.  It takes several pageforwards to get to the first A.
It is not searchable.  There is not even a count of how many there are in
total.

I'm not sure why the list is provided.  What is a use case for it?

It would be useful for those reviewing entries (articles) to have lists of
old and new names for contributors (with unreverted contributions) so as to
take advantage of hard-won knowledge about typical user contribution
quality, etc.  Are there plans for this?



On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 2:05 AM, Keegan Peterzell kpeterz...@wikimedia.org
wrote:

 On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 1:00 AM, Pine W wiki.p...@gmail.com wrote:

  Hi Keegan,
 
  Just a thought: you could invite WMFers to have SUL finalization parties
  during a few lunch hours. Invite people out of their silos to work with
 you
  and interact with the community to answer account-owner FAQs, translate
 the
  QA, and interact with WMF's customers. While this is a little
 different
  from face-time, I still think that some of the 1:1 interaction would be
  nice for everybody while helping move the SUL process along.
 
  Thanks for working on SUL.
 
  Pine


 Not a bad idea at all. I'll look into it, the prime time is this week and
 next, the expected response curve will likely drop sharply. Thanks, Pine :)

 --
 Keegan Peterzell
 Community Liaison, Product
 Wikimedia Foundation
 ___
 Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
 https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
 Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
 Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
 mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe




-- 
Dennis C. During
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 
mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe

Re: [Wikimedia-l] SUL finalization update (no, for real this time)

[Dennis During]

I'm a bit confused about implications of SUL for edit history.

What name will show up in page history for a contribution made by someone
who, after SUL, has a new name? The new name, if any, of that user? The
name being used at the time, which would now be attributed to someone who
did not make the contribution?  As an active user I often review histories
to find out the source of erroneous, non-standard, or odd, and brilliant
and interesting content in entries/articles.  How will I know about
identity changes?  I suppose the problem has always existed because of
sock-puppetry, usurpation, etc.  I suppose that it was always handled by
checkusers, etc  This just seems like potentially much more pervasive
problem that cannot necessarily be handled the same way.

Will there be reports or query mechanism to help active contributors keep
track of at least these sanctioned name changes?

On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 11:44 AM, Fæ fae...@gmail.com wrote:

 Correction. This link lists backwards from Fae but misses out Fae:

 https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:UsersWhoWillBeRenameddir=prevoffset=Fae

 This link lists forwards from Fae but again misses out Fae!:

 https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:UsersWhoWillBeRenamedoffset=Fae

 So yes, you can guess which name might be just before the name you are
 actually searching for, or wait until this special page is debugged. I
 suspect there was not much testing of it before the notices went out.

 Fae

 On 18 March 2015 at 15:27, Fæ fae...@gmail.com wrote:
  If anyone wishes to check a name, they can use offset. For example
  this url checks to see if the account Fae is going to be affected:
 
 https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:UsersWhoWillBeRenameddir=prevoffset=Fae
 
  Just change the name at the end of the link.
 
  However I note some issues. If you miss out the dir parameter, then
  the list seems to start *after* your index point, missing out the name
  searched for:
 
 https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:UsersWhoWillBeRenamedoffset=Wikilover
  does not start at Wikilover as you might expect, but it is shown by
 
 https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:UsersWhoWillBeRenamedoffset=Wikilove
 
  P.S. the parameter limit does not seem to make any difference as it
  does not change the list from a default of 25 accounts.
 
  Fae
 
  On 18 March 2015 at 15:11, Dennis During dcdur...@gmail.com wrote:
  Thanks for moving this close to completion.  I hope finalization goes
 well.
 
  However, It found Special:UsersWhoWillBeRenamed totally useless at
  Wiktionary, as I'm sure it is at any mature project.  Only 25 names
 appear
  at time. On Wiktionary the first page only includes names using
 exclusively
  exclamation marks.  It takes several pageforwards to get to the first
 A.
  It is not searchable.  There is not even a count of how many there are
 in
  total.
 
  I'm not sure why the list is provided.  What is a use case for it?
 
  It would be useful for those reviewing entries (articles) to have lists
 of
  old and new names for contributors (with unreverted contributions) so
 as to
  take advantage of hard-won knowledge about typical user contribution
  quality, etc.  Are there plans for this?
  truncated
 
  --
  fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae

 ___
 Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
 https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
 Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
 Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
 mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe




-- 
Dennis C. During
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 
mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe

Re: [Wikimedia-l] SUL finalization update (no, for real this time)

[Dennis During]

Thanks MFWarburg. Almost exactly what I want and certainly good enough for
now.

On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 10:43 PM, MF-Warburg mfwarb...@googlemail.com
wrote:

 Special:Log/renameuser
 Am 19.03.2015 00:59 schrieb Dennis During dcdur...@gmail.com:

  So, for the third time: Will there be a report accessible to normal users
  that has the name changes for the most voluminous contributors who have
 had
  a name change so that one can transfer one's experience with a user to
 the
  user's new name?
 
  On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 7:22 PM, Keegan Peterzell 
  kpeterz...@wikimedia.org
  wrote:
 
   Hello,
  
   On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 5:42 PM, Dennis During dcdur...@gmail.com
  wrote:
  
I'm a bit confused about implications of SUL for edit history.
   
  
   Just like renames work now, the user's new name will show up in edit
   histories.
  
   --
   Keegan Peterzell
   Community Liaison, Product
   Wikimedia Foundation
   ___
   Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
   https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
   Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
   Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
   mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
  
 
 
 
  --
  Dennis C. During
  ___
  Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
  https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
  Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
  Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
  mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
 ___
 Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
 https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
 Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
 Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
 mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe




-- 
Dennis C. During
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 
mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe

Re: [Wikimedia-l] CAPTCHA issues discouraging new editors

[Dennis During]

Partially OT: re  Sadly it got marked as resolved because there was
something that looked similar to developers, though not of course to
potential users.

I've had a similar experience at Phabricator with respect to dump problems.

Phabricator as it is used is really for WMF pros only, even though users
are often referred there to initiate bug reports.

On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 8:54 AM, WereSpielChequers 
werespielchequ...@gmail.com wrote:

 I'm tempted to point out that this mainly affects new editors who cite
 their edits, other new editors will get bitten in other ways. But the
 internet is not the best venue for irony.

 More practically, if you have a tame admin on tap then you can reduce this
 and other problems at editathons by setting those new accounts as
 confirmed. And yes I know we also have a shortage of admins, and also
 that it is likely that only a tiny proportion of the editors we lose
 through this are at editathons.

 Earlier this year as a result of the glam organisers event in Paris I made
 a proposal at bugzilla for an event organisers useright. This would have
 allowed us to circumvent this problem at those editathons that are targeted
 at newbies, and it got widely endorsed by GLAM editors from several
 languages. Sadly it got marked as resolved because there was something that
 looked similar to developers, though not of course to potential users. If
 anyone here knows how to bypass phabricator or how to mark a phabricator
 request as unresolved and still much wanted, then the link is
 https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T91928 alternatively perhaps we could
 persuade the education community to endorse it, it should be just as useful
 to them and they seem to have more clout with the WMF than the GLAM
 community.

 As for whether the capcha is useful in keeping out spammers, remember
 there are two capcha steps, one when you open a new account and the other
 when you use that to add links. Presumably any spam program that can pass
 the first hurdle can pass the second. But for new good faith human editors
 each capcha is a possible lost edit/editor. It would be good to test
 dropping the capcha requirement for adding new links, alternatively perhaps
 we could whitelist certain domains as likely to be reliable sources and
 unlikely to be spam.

 Regards

 Jonathan


 
 ___
 Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
 https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
 Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
 Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
 mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe




-- 
Dennis C. During
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 
mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wiktionary language study

[Dennis During]

Online flashcards would be useful for demonstrating the idea to those not
familiar with some aspect of them.  Directing users to the sources of
software for their platforms would be in the interests of both users
(better individualization, no need for connectivity) and MW (less server
load).

The need is to overcome some of the barriers that the blog article
identified to make the enterprise appear likely to succeed so that more
folks can get involved and hep it succeed.

Priorities for achieving early successes are important.

1. Simple flashcards do not require the development of inflection
templates, though inflection templates would be important milestones.
2. Core vocabulary is basic and may help recruit folks with the skills
required to achieve more advanced objectives.


On Thu, Jul 2, 2015 at 11:40 PM, Asaf Bartov abar...@wikimedia.org wrote:

 I agree: there are excellent free-software flashcard programs out there,
 and no need to duplicate that functionality.  This does suggest that
 convenient export functions (e.g. by category, by language) in formats
 expected by Anki etc. could enable a lot more use of Wiktionaries as
 sources for vocabulary study.

A.

 On Thu, Jul 2, 2015 at 5:56 PM, Dennis During dcdur...@gmail.com wrote:

  The flashcard function idea is not essential, given the availability of
  superior free, open-source, multi-platform flashcard programs like Anki.
  But it might be a good tool for engaging folks.
 
  There are Swadesh lists for many languages, which should be supplemented
 by
  more contemporary words and phrases.
 
  It seems interesting and possibly grant-worthy.  But finding the talent
 to
  persevere is non-trivial.
 
  On Thu, Jul 2, 2015 at 12:50 PM, d...@bisharat.net wrote:
 
   Of possible interest - perspectives on use of en.woktionary 
   fr.wiktionary for vocabulary learning/review, with focus on African
   languages:
  
  
  
 
 http://niamey.blogspot.com/2015/07/wiktionary-as-tool-for-african-language.html
  
   An idea buried in the text: Would it be possible to develop a kind of
   flashcard function based on random page by language where entry
   headwords for the chosen language would be generated without the
   definition(s)?
  
   Don Osborn
  
   Sent via BlackBerry by ATT
  
   ___
   Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
   https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
   Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
   Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
   mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
 
 
 
 
  --
  Dennis C. During
  ___
  Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
  https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
  Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
  Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
  mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
 



 --
 Asaf Bartov
 Wikimedia Foundation http://www.wikimediafoundation.org

 Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the
 sum of all knowledge. Help us make it a reality!
 https://donate.wikimedia.org
 ___
 Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
 https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
 Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
 Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
 mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe




-- 
Dennis C. During
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 
mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wiktionary language study

[Dennis During]

This will become considerably easier once we have Wikidata support for
Wiktionary. The latest proposal for how to do this is at
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Wiktionary/Development/Proposals/2015-05
and welcoming feedback.

Easier for whom?
Is there an ETA for that?

On Sat, Jul 4, 2015 at 5:49 PM, Lydia Pintscher 
lydia.pintsc...@wikimedia.de wrote:

 On Thu, Jul 2, 2015 at 6:50 PM,  d...@bisharat.net wrote:
  An idea buried in the text: Would it be possible to develop a kind of
 flashcard function based on random page by language where entry
 headwords for the chosen language would be generated without the
 definition(s)?

 This will become considerably easier once we have Wikidata support for
 Wiktionary. The latest proposal for how to do this is at

 https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Wiktionary/Development/Proposals/2015-05
 and welcoming feedback.


 Cheers
 Lydia

 --
 Lydia Pintscher - http://about.me/lydia.pintscher
 Product Manager for Wikidata

 Wikimedia Deutschland e.V.
 Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24
 10963 Berlin
 www.wikimedia.de

 Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V.

 Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg
 unter der Nummer 23855 Nz. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das
 Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985.

 ___
 Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
 https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
 Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
 Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
 mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe




-- 
Dennis C. During
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 
mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wiktionary language study

[Dennis During]

The flashcard function idea is not essential, given the availability of
superior free, open-source, multi-platform flashcard programs like Anki.
But it might be a good tool for engaging folks.

There are Swadesh lists for many languages, which should be supplemented by
more contemporary words and phrases.

It seems interesting and possibly grant-worthy.  But finding the talent to
persevere is non-trivial.

On Thu, Jul 2, 2015 at 12:50 PM, d...@bisharat.net wrote:

 Of possible interest - perspectives on use of en.woktionary 
 fr.wiktionary for vocabulary learning/review, with focus on African
 languages:


 http://niamey.blogspot.com/2015/07/wiktionary-as-tool-for-african-language.html

 An idea buried in the text: Would it be possible to develop a kind of
 flashcard function based on random page by language where entry
 headwords for the chosen language would be generated without the
 definition(s)?

 Don Osborn

 Sent via BlackBerry by ATT

 ___
 Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
 https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
 Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
 Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
 mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe




-- 
Dennis C. During
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 
mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wiktionary language study

[Dennis During]

I'm getting old, so I may not be able to wait for the completion of a
project that hasn't started. I guess I'm looking for something that can be
demonstrated soon, for one class of vocabulary (language or technical
jargon), before the year is out or sooner.

I will probably try to assemble content in an area like taxonomic plant
names (families) or amino acids or something, see what the flashcard
program Anki requires, and find someone at Wiktionary who can develop some
easy interface for end-user downloads.

On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 9:00 PM, Lydia Pintscher 
lydia.pintsc...@wikimedia.de wrote:

 On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 4:37 AM, Dennis During dcdur...@gmail.com wrote:
  Easier for whom?

 Since it'll be more machine-readable than it is now it'll be easier
 for a programmer to make use of the data to build a tool like you
 proposed or use it in an existing tool.

  Is there an ETA for that?

 No. It's quite some work but it's definitely something I want to make
 happen. It's unclear when we can start working on it.


 Cheers
 Lydia

 --
 Lydia Pintscher - http://about.me/lydia.pintscher
 Product Manager for Wikidata

 Wikimedia Deutschland e.V.
 Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24
 10963 Berlin
 www.wikimedia.de

 Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V.

 Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg
 unter der Nummer 23855 Nz. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das
 Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985.

 ___
 Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
 https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
 Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
 Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
 mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe




-- 
Dennis C. During
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 
mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Book Grant program

[Dennis During]

Is the omission of sister projects (Commons, Species, Wiktionary)
intentional?

On Mon, Jul 20, 2015 at 1:15 AM, Tito Dutta trulyt...@gmail.com wrote:

 That's great. :)
 if you add something for queries please contact joh@example.org or
 something like that on the Book Grant page too (
 http://wikimediadc.org/wiki/Book_Grants), non-members and non mailing list
 readers can easily contact from there.

 On 19 July 2015 at 22:15, Keilana keilanaw...@gmail.com wrote:

  Announcing: Wikimedia DC's Exciting New Program: BOOK GRANTS!
  http://wikimediadc.org/wiki/Book_Grants
 
  We are offering book grants to people in the United States to support
 their
  editing. Please contact me at keilanaw...@gmail.com if you have any
  questions.
 
  -Emily Temple-Wood
  ___
  Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
  https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
  Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
  
 https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/guidelineswikimedi...@lists.wikimedia.org
 
  Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
  mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
 ___
 Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
 https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
 Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
 Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
 mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe




-- 
Dennis C. During
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 
mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia content for in-flight entertainment?

[Dennis During]

Wouldn't there be significant bandwidth limitations on aircraft? So WMF
content would require additional storage.  Presumably, only selected WMF
content would be actually carried on board, with other made available
on-demand.

On Jul 31, 2017 5:38 AM, "Andy Mabbett"  wrote:

On 30 July 2017 at 23:13, Pierre-Selim  wrote:

> airline will need a business case to cary more weight

How heavy is Wikipedia?

--
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] How can we fix the two-stage page loading problem?

[Dennis During]

Can we get back on topic please?  I isn't  there another thread for beating
the fundraising-disclosure-oversight dead horse?
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] an observation on economic biases in Wikipedia

[Dennis During]

At the level of generalization of the cited statement in the WP article, it
is pretty much impossible to approach objectivity in economics articles.  I
doubt that an instance of bias should lead us to include the kind of
unscientific economics that we happen to find agreeable.  I specifically
refer to the kind of Tinkerbell economics in the YouTube video.

On Tue, May 8, 2018 at 1:44 PM, James Salsman  wrote:

> The more I survey different language wikipedias, the more I am
> convinced an effort at the chapters level is needed to address this
> problem:
>
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wiki-research-l/
> 2018-April/006256.html
>
> It occurred to me that this Max Roser video might help:
>
> A Selfish Argument for Making the World a Better Place – Egoistic Altruism
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvskMHn0sqQ
>
> I hope in particular that objectivists and former objectivists would
> share their thoughts on it.
>
> Best regards,
> Jim
>
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 




-- 
Dennis C. During
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Executive Director's Letter to Donors

[Dennis During]

Yes. I think I am. I wouldn't have thought that WMF would be so driven by
economics.  I would bail from this project and find another that was less
partisan, though fewer and fewer institutions seem nonpartisan to me.  I
expect that the WMF projects would be more to your liking without people of
my beliefs intruding on policy discussions.  I favor the WMF focusing its
efforts on serving a vast public by offering content that is not

On Sat, Jun 16, 2018 at 6:40 PM, James Salsman  wrote:

> Dennis,
>
> Are you suggesting that public policy to support wikimedians outside
> of copyright and internet law would be outside of the basic remit as
> specified by the Mission?



​Basically yes.
​

> We should measure how much donors are likely
> to donate more or less for each of the issues.


​That is a short-run view.  I prefer institutions that seem committed to​ a
minimal core set of values.  That long-term commitment is not necessarily
consistent at all times with the current views of those currently choosing
to participate in these fora.  I am also surprised that you believe that
the economics of donations and grants should be driving the projects.  Is
WMF for sale to corporate donors, to large private donors, or to those who
craft seductive fund-raising messages?

I would also like to
> know the proportion of wikimedians who think the Mission is so
> restrictive.
>

​Facts are always nice,/

>
> > US only or worldwide
>
> Peter, both in proportion to optimized influence likelihoods.
>

​What is an "optimized influence likelihood"?​

>
> Best regards,
> Jim
>
> On Fri, Jun 15, 2018 at 4:58 PM, Dennis During  wrote:
> > I'd reconsider contributing content to WMF projects if WMF became a
> > partisan on issues outside its basic remit.
> >
> > On Jun 15, 2018 16:11, "James Salsman"  wrote:
> >
> > Regarding https://twitter.com/SuePGardner/status/998302792946102273
> >
> > I propose that the Executive Director resume regular periodic
> > correspondence with donors on other ways they can support the
> > movement, beyond copyright and internet law advocacy that the
> > Foundation traditionally supports directly and indirectly. In
> > particular, I propose that the Executive Director ask donors to
> > support other organizations which are working for free college,[1-4]
> > single payer universal health care,[5] shorter work weeks,[6-7]
> > payroll subsidies,[8] and two-bracket taxation.[9]
> >
> > I believe all of these goals are favored by wikimedians, for
> > wikimedians, I predict at around 80% for the least popular. If there
> > is any question I ask that a statistically robust and significant
> > survey of the question among community and staff be conducted with the
> > urgency commensurate that work in these areas deserves.
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Jim Salsman
> >
> > [1]
> > https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/01/16/free-community-
> college-california_n_6474940.html
> >
> > [2]
> > https://www.treasury.gov/connect/blog/Documents/20121212_Economics%20of%
> 20Higher%20Ed_vFINAL.pdf
> >
> > [3] https://www.docdroid.net/epSjOI2/peracchi2006.pdf
> >
> > [4] https://www.docdroid.net/joXd2MZ/heckman2006.pdf
> >
> > [5] https://twitter.com/jsalsman/status/1007106802507378689
> >
> > [6]
> > https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/03/does-working-
> fewer-hours-make-you-more-productive/
> >
> > [7] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workweek_and_weekend#Length
> >
> > [8] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Making_Work_Pay_tax_credit
> >
> > [9]
> > https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/1595/12bb30b0ceddfe0525addf777bb2c3
> 1542b6.pdf
> >
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Executive Director's Letter to Donors

[Dennis During]

I'd reconsider contributing content to WMF projects if WMF became a
partisan on issues outside its basic remit.

On Jun 15, 2018 16:11, "James Salsman"  wrote:

Regarding https://twitter.com/SuePGardner/status/998302792946102273

I propose that the Executive Director resume regular periodic
correspondence with donors on other ways they can support the
movement, beyond copyright and internet law advocacy that the
Foundation traditionally supports directly and indirectly. In
particular, I propose that the Executive Director ask donors to
support other organizations which are working for free college,[1-4]
single payer universal health care,[5] shorter work weeks,[6-7]
payroll subsidies,[8] and two-bracket taxation.[9]

I believe all of these goals are favored by wikimedians, for
wikimedians, I predict at around 80% for the least popular. If there
is any question I ask that a statistically robust and significant
survey of the question among community and staff be conducted with the
urgency commensurate that work in these areas deserves.

Best regards,
Jim Salsman

[1]
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/01/16/free-community-college-california_n_6474940.html

[2]
https://www.treasury.gov/connect/blog/Documents/20121212_Economics%20of%20Higher%20Ed_vFINAL.pdf

[3] https://www.docdroid.net/epSjOI2/peracchi2006.pdf

[4] https://www.docdroid.net/joXd2MZ/heckman2006.pdf

[5] https://twitter.com/jsalsman/status/1007106802507378689

[6]
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/03/does-working-fewer-hours-make-you-more-productive/

[7] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workweek_and_weekend#Length

[8] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Making_Work_Pay_tax_credit

[9]
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/1595/12bb30b0ceddfe0525addf777bb2c31542b6.pdf

___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,

___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] C-team Statement on the Code of Conduct

[Dennis During]

I don't see how a ringing endorsement of principles is responsive to
specific issues that have been raised.  If this email has any meaning at
all, it seems to mean that no change whatsoever is thought necessary by the
folks who would have to change.

On Tue, Aug 14, 2018, 13:46 Victoria Coleman  wrote:

> Hello everyone,
>
> The executive leadership team, on behalf of the Foundation, would like to
> issue a statement of unequivocal support for the Code of Conduct[1] and the
> community-led Code of Conduct Committee. We believe that the development
> and implementation of the Code are vital in ensuring the healthy
> functioning of our technical communities and spaces. The Code of Conduct
> was created to address obstacles and occasionally very problematic personal
> communications that limit participation and cause real harm to community
> members and staff. In engaging in this work we are setting the tone for the
> ways we collaborate in tech. We are saying that treating others badly is
> not welcome in our communities. And we are joining an important movement in
> the tech industry to address these problems in a way that supports
> self-governance consistent with our values.
>
> This initiative is critical in continuing the amazing work of our projects
> and ensuring that they continue to flourish in delivering on the critical
> vision of being the essential infrastructure of free knowledge now and
> forever.
>
> Toby, Maggie, Eileen, Heather, Lisa, Katherine, Jaime, Joady, and Victoria
>
>
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Code_of_Conduct <
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Code_of_Conduct>
>
>
>
>
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Information on "Multiple failed attempts to log in" emails

[Dennis During]

Wouldn't disclosure in a public forum of any details of such an attack
potentially inform the attackers and would-be imitators of the success or
lack thereof of the attack, of its methods, and of detection and cleanup
methods?

On Sat, Aug 25, 2018 at 12:21 PM, Fæ  wrote:

> Dear Security group of the Wikimedia Foundation,
>
> The community has been patiently waiting for *113 days* for an
> analysis to be published for the login attack of 3 May 2018.
>
-- 
Dennis C. During
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Response to recent developments of United States travel ban

[Dennis During]

We are getting down to brass tacks, finally.

The interests of WMF are not whether the immigration regulations
changes "threaten
the ability of the US to attract skilled talent into the country", but
rather whether they have such an effect on the WMF and Wikimedia community
("WMF").  If WMF and its lobbying allies carved out some kind of
special treatment for a class of workers relevant to WMF

For WMF to have technical resource centers outside the US is fully
consistent with the global nature of the community.  Should it find it
desirable to move its legal domicile or some or all of its administrative
activities or more of its servers outside the US, it should do so.

The raising-the-drawbridge rhetoric simply clouds the efforts to determine
and do what's actually best for WMF

On Sun, Jul 8, 2018 at 4:56 PM, James Salsman  wrote:

> Mario,
>
> Your argument is not convincing, because:
>
> "The so called ‘travel ban’ that was introduced by President Trump and
> the re-evaluation of the H-1B visa programme threaten the ability of
> the US to attract skilled talent into the country (Mahmud, 2017; You,
> Bohannon, & Stone, 2017). Indeed, Microsoft has already opened a
> satellite office in Vancouver, Canada to mitigate the challenges in
> accessing key talent created by these changes, with many other tech
> companies reported to be considering their options (Dixon, 2017)"
> citing:
>
> Mahmud, A. (2017). Looking beyond H-1B visas to attract technical
> talent. Harvard Business Review [online]. Retrieved June 26, 2017,
> from https://hbr.org/2017/06/looking-beyond-h-1b-visas-to-find-tech-talent
>
> You, J., Bohannon, J., & Stone, R.(2017). Raising the drawbridge.
> Science, 355(6328), 896.10.1126/science.355.6328.896
>
> Dixon, L. (2017). Tighter immigration policy pushes firms to open
> foreign satellite offices. Talent Economy [online]. Retrieved June 26,
> 2017, from http://www.talenteconomy.io/2017/06/19/tighter-
> immigration-policy-pushes-firms-open-foreign-satellite-offices/
>
> Please see also:
>
> https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-1e40517da152288614b980cf9087e7dd
>
> https://www.cnn.com/2018/04/23/opinions/trump-travel-ban-
> fuels-terrorism-clapper-geltzer-olsen/index.html
>
> https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/04/25/trumps-travel-ban-
> might-be-legal-but-its-bad-policy/
>
> Sincerely,
> Jim
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 8, 2018 at 3:20 AM, Mario Gómez 
> wrote:
> > On Sat, Jul 7, 2018 at 8:53 PM, James Salsman 
> wrote:
> >
> >> The is between arbitrary border security theater and allowing the
> >> Foundation to recruit and hire the best candidates. If the Foundation
> >> was silent on the matter, there would be less of a chance of retaining
> >> the right.
> >>
> >
> > Not really. IMHO, the choice is between 1) acknowledging that we have a
> > diverse community where everyone may choose to support an organization
> > (other than the WMF) that matches their political position, or 2)
> imposing
> > a very specific political position upon the community.
> >
> > I consider the "best candidate" point a fallacy, since it works with the
> > premise that human talent is so scarce that for every position in an
> > organization there is a single or very few people in the world fit for
> it.
> > I have seen the exact same point used so often to justify positions
> against
> > diversity, equality or economic independence policies that I don't buy it
> > anymore. There are many organizational policies that are more effective
> to
> > increase the pool of candidates, such as being globally distributed
> rather
> > than forcing relocation to the US, and they do not involve this kind of
> > lobbying.
> >
> > PS.- In order to avoid thread hijacking, I will not answer here your
> points
> > about the other thread.
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > MarioGom
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
>
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
>



-- 
Dennis C. During
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Executive Director's Letter to Donors

[Dennis During]

On Fri, Jul 6, 2018 at 3:33 PM, James Salsman  wrote:

> Lodewijk,
>
> I want to ask about something you wrote:
>
> >... Not taking a position is definitely not the same as
> > taking a 'neutral' position or holding the middle ground.
>
> Suppose for the sake of argument that there are two competing popular
> opinions, one of which is more true than another. If the opinions are
> noteworthy statements on notable subjects, then it is appropriate to
> describe both. In accepting the right to do so for others, isn't there
> a corresponding responsibility to describe which of the two reliable
> sources say is more true?
>

​If you are not concerned about the problem of hubris, perhaps not.​

>
> The point I am trying to make, is that those who view a lack of
> partisanship as a benefit are those who don't speak up when things are
> going wrong, and those people are hurting the people our Mission seeks
> to educate, and the people our Mission depends on to volunteer.
>

​Often, "educate" seems to mean propagandize., always equipped with the
paving stones of the road to hell.

Are there any specific reasons that the Foundation should remain
> neutral on any topic, economic, political, or otherwise, which clearly
> impacts the readership or community?


​What topics don't clearly impact some of the readership of community?​

This discussion seems to be framed almost entirely in idealism and
absolutes, entities that rarely seem to lead to practical solutions for a
society of diverse interests.

To the extent that we do have recourse to ideals and absolutes, they should
probably be limited to the core values which the movement has accepted from
the beginning.  That way this institution can be a vehicle for truth of the
factual variety, recognizing that even facts can be in legitimate dispute.


>
>


-- 
Dennis C. During
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Croatian Wikipedia: persisting far-right bias?

[Dennis During]

Yes the method can miss bias. But if the references* used are* biased, it
would provide clear, objective (though not irrefutable) evidence of a
general bias.  The more factual the discussion, the more likely it will be
that any conclusions of the process will be accepted, if not by all at
Croatia WP, then perhaps by some there and by most other observers.

On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 5:45 PM Tomasz Ganicz  wrote:

> I don't clearly understand Gerard what is your idea. Do you want to measure
> NPOV by calculating how often the sources are used after somehow marking
> them to belong to one or another group of political, religous or other type
> of  POV? And when you find that one group of them are more often cited than
> the others, this is a symptom of systematic bias of given Wikimedia
> project? Well that might be quite misleading because the issue is the
> honesty and context of using sources.
>
> For example: One can write an article about any controversial topic using
> equal number of  sources supporting opposite POVs, but the text can still
> be quite biased:
>
> "According to unfaithful bastard X [source X] the true is A. But, according
> to honourable and widely recognized expert Y [source Y] A it is not true,
> but the true is B."
>
> I don't believe in any kind of automated method of measuring NPOV. NPOV is
> very complex issue needed human judgment. You can't avoid it.
>
>
> śr., 28 lis 2018 o 12:43 Gerard Meijssen 
> napisał(a):
>
> > Hoi,
> > I take offence calling it a faith-based process. We have a database with
> > the citations of all Wikipedias. We have overriding principles that
> include
> > the NPOV and what the role of functionaries is in Wikimedia projects.
> When
> > they are a faith, they are our faith.
> >
> > My question to you is, why are you reluctant to start a process that will
> > bring down many hobby horses including yours and the ones in your
> favourite
> > project. Why not start where we face an urgency? An urgency that
> undermines
> > Wikipedia as NPOV!
> > Thanks,
> >   GerardM
> >
> > On Wed, 28 Nov 2018 at 00:31, Dennis During  wrote:
> >
> > > Why not test-run the process on my favorite project - or yours?  We
> > should
> > > get started.
> > >
> > > I am skeptical of the quality of judgment without a foundation of
> facts.
> > > At Wiktionary we have two main definition evaluation processes, one
> > > dependent on citations to which interpretative judgment is applies. IMO
> > > this process works very well.  The other depends on opinion, votes,
> > > supported by whatever facts or authority or bluster (my specialty)
> > > advocates bring to bear.  That process, though adequate, is not as
> > > satisfactory.
> > >
> > > Gerard Meijssen has suggested a faith-based process. If it is almost
> > ready
> > > to go, let it be validated and put to use.
> > >
> > > On Tue, Nov 27, 2018, 16:45 Benjamin Lees  > >
> > > > On Mon, Nov 26, 2018 at 8:06 AM Dennis During 
> > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Who is the judge? Are we going to join Facebook, Google, Twitter,
> et
> > al
> > > > as
> > > > > the new press barons?
> > > >
> > > > All of our work on the projects necessarily involves making
> judgments.
> > > > As a movement we have largely decided that editors on individual
> > > > projects should be the ones to make those judgments.  But in some
> > > > extreme cases, our judgment may be that we need different judges.
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Nov 27, 2018 at 1:03 PM Dennis During 
> > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > It is important that any wiki process be applied fairly.  In this
> > case
> > > I
> > > > > think the Croatian wiki cannot be the first to have a new process
> > > > applied.
> > > >
> > > > I don't know whether this is the process we want.  But if it is,
> > > > somebody's gotta go first.
> > > >
> > > > ___
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> I
>

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Croatian Wikipedia: persisting far-right bias?

[Dennis During]

It is important that any wiki process be applied fairly.  In this case I
think the Croatian wiki cannot be the first to have a new process applied.
I hope that the process that Gerard recommends has been validated in some
way that meets with broad, nearly universal approval.

On Tue, Nov 27, 2018 at 12:37 PM Gerard Meijssen 
wrote:

> Hoi,
> We have a database with all the citations of all Wikipedias. That database
> is integrated in wikidata as we speak. What we should do is eat our own
> medicine and compare sources on the same subject when the subject is
> controversial. Our overriding policy is for Wikipedia to have a neutral
> point of view. So while Croation sources are fine, they need to be balanced
> for a NPOV. When sources with a different viewpoint are available, ignoring
> them is not an option.
>
> At the same time, there are sources that have been found to be
> untrustworthy. At some stage, sources, any and all sources can be assessed
> and even rejected.
>
> Admins and bureaucrats have their authority because they promise to  adhere
> to the universal Wikipedia policies, the other reason is the trust their
> community gave them at one time. In the end, we have the mechanisms and the
> methods to assess the NPOV and the quality of articles. We have the
> mechanisms and methods to assess the functioning of people who are trusted
> to adhere to our policies.
> Thanks,
> GerardM
>
> On Mon, 26 Nov 2018 at 19:15, Ilario Valdelli  wrote:
>
> > History does not require a judge. It's the storiography to be judge.
> >
> > Here the problem is to give relevance to some sources and to neglect
> > (completely) others.
> >
> > If a single not neutral source is considered as the Holy Bible, the same
> > pillars of Wikipedia are infringed.
> >
> > Kind regards
> >
> > On Mon, 26 Nov 2018, 14:06 Dennis During  >
> > > Who is the judge? Are we going to join Facebook, Google, Twitter, et al
> > as
> > > the new press barons?
> > > ___
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>



-- 
Dennis C. During
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 
<mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Croatian Wikipedia: persisting far-right bias?

[Dennis During]

Excuse for what? Whatever process is used needs to have integrity to be
accepted.  We are supposed to be inclusive and transparent, right?

On Tue, Nov 27, 2018, 15:15 David Gerard  Forgive me, but this is coming across as hopping from excuse to excuse.
> On Tue, 27 Nov 2018 at 18:03, Dennis During  wrote:
> >
> > It is important that any wiki process be applied fairly.  In this case I
> > think the Croatian wiki cannot be the first to have a new process
> applied.
> > I hope that the process that Gerard recommends has been validated in some
> > way that meets with broad, nearly universal approval.
> >
> > On Tue, Nov 27, 2018 at 12:37 PM Gerard Meijssen <
> gerard.meijs...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hoi,
> > > We have a database with all the citations of all Wikipedias. That
> database
> > > is integrated in wikidata as we speak. What we should do is eat our own
> > > medicine and compare sources on the same subject when the subject is
> > > controversial. Our overriding policy is for Wikipedia to have a neutral
> > > point of view. So while Croation sources are fine, they need to be
> balanced
> > > for a NPOV. When sources with a different viewpoint are available,
> ignoring
> > > them is not an option.
> > >
> > > At the same time, there are sources that have been found to be
> > > untrustworthy. At some stage, sources, any and all sources can be
> assessed
> > > and even rejected.
> > >
> > > Admins and bureaucrats have their authority because they promise to
> adhere
> > > to the universal Wikipedia policies, the other reason is the trust
> their
> > > community gave them at one time. In the end, we have the mechanisms
> and the
> > > methods to assess the NPOV and the quality of articles. We have the
> > > mechanisms and methods to assess the functioning of people who are
> trusted
> > > to adhere to our policies.
> > > Thanks,
> > > GerardM
> > >
> > > On Mon, 26 Nov 2018 at 19:15, Ilario Valdelli 
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > History does not require a judge. It's the storiography to be judge.
> > > >
> > > > Here the problem is to give relevance to some sources and to neglect
> > > > (completely) others.
> > > >
> > > > If a single not neutral source is considered as the Holy Bible, the
> same
> > > > pillars of Wikipedia are infringed.
> > > >
> > > > Kind regards
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, 26 Nov 2018, 14:06 Dennis During  > > >
> > > > > Who is the judge? Are we going to join Facebook, Google, Twitter,
> et al
> > > > as
> > > > > the new press barons?
> > > > > ___
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org
> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > ___
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > ___
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Dennis C. During
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: ht

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Croatian Wikipedia: persisting far-right bias?

[Dennis During]

Why not test-run the process on my favorite project - or yours?  We should
get started.

I am skeptical of the quality of judgment without a foundation of facts.
At Wiktionary we have two main definition evaluation processes, one
dependent on citations to which interpretative judgment is applies. IMO
this process works very well.  The other depends on opinion, votes,
supported by whatever facts or authority or bluster (my specialty)
advocates bring to bear.  That process, though adequate, is not as
satisfactory.

Gerard Meijssen has suggested a faith-based process. If it is almost ready
to go, let it be validated and put to use.

On Tue, Nov 27, 2018, 16:45 Benjamin Lees  On Mon, Nov 26, 2018 at 8:06 AM Dennis During  wrote:
> >
> > Who is the judge? Are we going to join Facebook, Google, Twitter, et al
> as
> > the new press barons?
>
> All of our work on the projects necessarily involves making judgments.
> As a movement we have largely decided that editors on individual
> projects should be the ones to make those judgments.  But in some
> extreme cases, our judgment may be that we need different judges.
>
> On Tue, Nov 27, 2018 at 1:03 PM Dennis During  wrote:
> >
> > It is important that any wiki process be applied fairly.  In this case I
> > think the Croatian wiki cannot be the first to have a new process
> applied.
>
> I don't know whether this is the process we want.  But if it is,
> somebody's gotta go first.
>
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> I
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 
<mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Croatian Wikipedia: persisting far-right bias?

[Dennis During]

Who is the judge? Are we going to join Facebook, Google, Twitter, et al as
the new press barons?
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Croatian Wikipedia: persisting far-right bias?

[Dennis During]

It's a good thing that our thoughts and deeds are so pure that we have
become entitled to purify the thoughts and deeds of others.
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Croatian Wikipedia: persisting far-right bias?

[Dennis During]

My cellphone spellchecker substituted "faith" for "fact".  I was trying to
encourage the use of your approach.


On Wed, Nov 28, 2018, 06:43 Gerard Meijssen  Hoi,
> I take offence calling it a faith-based process. We have a database with
> the citations of all Wikipedias. We have overriding principles that include
> the NPOV and what the role of functionaries is in Wikimedia projects. When
> they are a faith, they are our faith.
>
> My question to you is, why are you reluctant to start a process that will
> bring down many hobby horses including yours and the ones in your favourite
> project. Why not start where we face an urgency? An urgency that undermines
> Wikipedia as NPOV!
> Thanks,
>   GerardM
>
> On Wed, 28 Nov 2018 at 00:31, Dennis During  wrote:
>
> > Why not test-run the process on my favorite project - or yours?  We
> should
> > get started.
> >
> > I am skeptical of the quality of judgment without a foundation of facts.
> > At Wiktionary we have two main definition evaluation processes, one
> > dependent on citations to which interpretative judgment is applies. IMO
> > this process works very well.  The other depends on opinion, votes,
> > supported by whatever facts or authority or bluster (my specialty)
> > advocates bring to bear.  That process, though adequate, is not as
> > satisfactory.
> >
> > Gerard Meijssen has suggested a faith-based process. If it is almost
> ready
> > to go, let it be validated and put to use.
> >
> > On Tue, Nov 27, 2018, 16:45 Benjamin Lees  >
> > > On Mon, Nov 26, 2018 at 8:06 AM Dennis During 
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Who is the judge? Are we going to join Facebook, Google, Twitter, et
> al
> > > as
> > > > the new press barons?
> > >
> > > All of our work on the projects necessarily involves making judgments.
> > > As a movement we have largely decided that editors on individual
> > > projects should be the ones to make those judgments.  But in some
> > > extreme cases, our judgment may be that we need different judges.
> > >
> > > On Tue, Nov 27, 2018 at 1:03 PM Dennis During 
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > It is important that any wiki process be applied fairly.  In this
> case
> > I
> > > > think the Croatian wiki cannot be the first to have a new process
> > > applied.
> > >
> > > I don't know whether this is the process we want.  But if it is,
> > > somebody's gotta go first.
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> I
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 
<mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Feedback requested for draft code of conduct for user group

[Dennis During]

Is Wikimedia 'friendly' to or 'safe' for people who voted for, donated to,
or worked for Trump or Farage or Reagan or LePen or Berlusconi or Modi or
Bolsonaro or Orban or Bush or Thatcher or Churchill?

On Tue, May 28, 2019 at 12:04 PM camelia boban 
wrote:

> I agree a unique, inconfondible and free of interpretations CoC to be
> adopted by all UGs, as suggested by Thrapostibongles.
>
> Camelia
>
>
> --
> *Camelia Boban*
>
> *| Java EE Developer |*
> *Affiliations Committee - **Wikimedia *Foundation
> Coordinator - Diversity Working Group for Wikimedia Strategy 2030
> Chair & co-founder - WikiDonne User Group *| WikiDonne Project ideator*
>
> *Diversity Space @ Wikimania 2019 Co-Lead*
> WMIT - WMSE - WMCH - WMAR Member
>
> M. +39 3383385545
> camelia.bo...@gmail.com
> *Aissa Technologies* * | *Twitter
>  *|* *LinkedIn
> *
> *Wikipedia  **|
> **WikiDonne
> UG * | *WikiDonne Project
>  *
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Il giorno mar 28 mag 2019 alle ore 17:33 Mister Thrapostibongles <
> thrapostibong...@gmail.com> ha scritto:
>
> > Paulo
> >
> > >
> > > I'm curious if non discriminating anyone politically could imply a
> group
> > or
> > > community being forced to accept people from the extreme right or the
> > likes
> > > of it, with public (but not onwiki) views against migration, promoting
> > > racial discrimination, and revisionism, for instance?
> > >
> >
> > Surely if a participant in a project is known to be an adherent of a
> > murderous ideology, with a history of genocide, that takes the view that
> a
> > certain class of person should be discriminated against, treated as
> > inferior or subject to violence or extermination -- then any member of
> the
> > class discriminated against would have reasonable, eve strong, grounds
> for
> > feeling threatened by that participation?
> >
> > Thrapostibongles
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 



-- 
Dennis C. During
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Feedback requested for draft code of conduct for user group

[Dennis During]

Would anyone care to specify or, at least, provide examples of "such
ideologies" as would not be "allowed in our movement"?

I have the feeling that the focus should not be on thoughts, beliefs, or
attitudes, but rather on behavior.

I get scared ("feel unsafe") whenever discussions take the turn that this
one has, condemning people for past beliefs, for example. I am already
feeling the silent menace of labellers on me for objecting to this line of
discussion.

On Tue, May 28, 2019 at 6:16 PM Paulo Santos Perneta <
paulospern...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Mister Thrapostibongles,
>
> I would believe so. However, after knowing a case where a WMF staff was
> fired after their denounce of such a situation caused a fuss in the target
> community, I'm not so sure the WMF shares that understanding. Until there
> is some strong standing from the WMF about such ideologies not being
> allowed in our movement, to me that still is a grey area in the CoC.
>
> Paulo
>
> Mister Thrapostibongles  escreveu no dia
> terça,
> 28/05/2019 à(s) 16:33:
>
> > Paulo
> >
> > >
> > > I'm curious if non discriminating anyone politically could imply a
> group
> > or
> > > community being forced to accept people from the extreme right or the
> > likes
> > > of it, with public (but not onwiki) views against migration, promoting
> > > racial discrimination, and revisionism, for instance?
> > >
> >
> > Surely if a participant in a project is known to be an adherent of a
> > murderous ideology, with a history of genocide, that takes the view that
> a
> > certain class of person should be discriminated against, treated as
> > inferior or subject to violence or extermination -- then any member of
> the
> > class discriminated against would have reasonable, eve strong, grounds
> for
> > feeling threatened by that participation?
> >
> > Thrapostibongles
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 



-- 
Dennis C. During
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fram en.wp office yearlock block

[Dennis During]

It seems perfectly reasonable to use metaphors based on legal systems,
including human rights, in discussing these matters, which do, after all,
involve rules of human behavior and their adjudication by authorities.
Fairness and justice are constantly invoked in all sorts of everyday
matters, from sports to baking.

On Sat, Jun 15, 2019 at 3:32 PM Dan Rosenthal  wrote:

> I didn't put my words in your mouth -- I quoted your own words precisely,
> and the implication you were trying to make is obvious; so respectfully,
> please refrain from gaslighting here. I simply suggested dropping the
> hyperbole of  "star chambers and kangaroo courts", "secret trials punishing
> people who don't know they're being accused' and "very basic principle[s]
> of Human Rights and dignity" over someone getting banned from a website
> over bad conduct issues.  You need not reply -- I'm done with this portion
> of the conversation.
>
> On Sat, Jun 15, 2019 at 1:03 PM Paulo Santos Perneta <
> paulospern...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I have never said that this is a human rights violation, so please don't
> > put your words on my mouth.
> >
> > I have said that the general principles of equality, right to fair trial,
> > not having ones honor damaged by baseless accusations, etc. which are
> > present at the UDHR are being forgotten here.
> >
> > Of course you may argue that since the WMF is a private organization,
> they
> > are free to engage in this kind of secret trials, star chambers and
> > kangaroo courts at will. As others already stated, the matter here is not
> > if they can, but if they should be engaging on those schemes, as they are
> > now.
> >
> > Best,
> > Paulo
> >
> >
> >
> > A sábado, 15 de jun de 2019, 18:39, Dan Rosenthal 
> > escreveu:
> >
> > > There is no "very basic principle of Human Rights and dignity" to be
> free
> > > from the presumption of guilt by others.  You may be confusing Article
> 11
> > > of the UHDR, but this applies explicitly only to "penal offenses."
> > Unless
> > > Fram is getting locked up in prison for his actions, let's drop the
> > absurd
> > > hyperbole that this is somehow a human rights violation.
> > >
> > >
> > > Dan Rosenthal
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sat, Jun 15, 2019 at 11:35 AM Paulo Santos Perneta <
> > > paulospern...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > People shouldn't be going with any random option, but rather presume
> > the
> > > > innocence of others unless guilt is proven by some legit process.
> > > > It seems that this very basic principle of Human Rights and dignity
> is
> > > > being forgotten.
> > > > There is not the least appearance of due process happening there, but
> > > that
> > > > has not stopped people from finding themselves their guilty part of
> > > > election, using their own bias to evaluate the case.
> > > > Including some Wikipedia related social network accounts that should
> be
> > > > acting more responsible and wiser than joining the rabble in the
> > offwiki
> > > > harassment of their guilty part of choice.
> > > >
> > > > Best,
> > > > Paulo
> > > >
> > > > geni  escreveu no dia sábado, 15/06/2019 à(s)
> > 17:15:
> > > >
> > > > > On Sat, 15 Jun 2019 at 00:04, David Gerard 
> > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If you really think Fram's framing of events here is even
> > plausible,
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > What you are calling Fram's framing appears to be a the WMF's
> version
> > > > > of events as told to fram. The WMF does look slightly better if you
> > > > > remember that T arw trying to improve behaviour through threat of
> > > > > blocks not file a diff heavy arbcom case.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >  >let alone the story
> > > > >
> > > > > Given that the other versions of "the story" are T's PR waffle or
> > > > > conspiracy theories it understandable that people are going to go
> > with
> > > > > the option that at least gives them something to work from.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > geni
> > > > >
> > > > > ___
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > >  ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > ___
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > 
> > > ___
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Foundation management of volunteers

[Dennis During]

"One (and not the most important) pieces of evidence for Wikipedia being in
a failed state is precisely that
it does not, by the community's own admission, constitute a reliable source
"

You have made this argument more than once. That might be a piece of
evidence seems both wrong and not relevant to the sense in which people
here as saying WP has failed, which is as a welcoming, "safe" environment
for contributors and would-be contributors.

It is good policy to make sure that contributors reach out to other
sources, even when one believes that Wikipedia is as reliable as the
average tertiary source we allow as a reference. It prevents us from
relying exclusively on what can easily turn out to be a very narrow set of
points of view.  Does/did the Encyclopedia Britanica cite other EB articles
as references rather than include them as "see alsos"?

On Mon, Jun 17, 2019 at 8:27 AM Mister Thrapostibongles <
thrapostibong...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Vito
>
> This rather tends to support my point.  One (and not the most important)
> pieces of evidence for Wikipedia being in a failed state is precisely that
> it does not , by the community's own admission, constitute a reliable
> source:whereas "Reputable tertiary sources
> , such as
> introductory-level university textbooks, almanacs, and encyclopedias, may
> be cited".  So Wikipedia fails in its aim of being an encyclopaedia on one
> of the most important tests one could imagine, namely reliability.  And a
> reason for that is its lack of effective content management policies and
> mechanisms to put them into effect (in the old days we called that being an
> editor, but that word on Wikipedia now is more or less a redundant synonym
> for contributor).
>
> Now suppose that Wikipedia had effective editorial policies and processes
> that allowed it to assume the status of a reliable source, just like the
> encyclopaedia it aims to be.  You say that even in that situation, it would
> be easy to manipulate.  On that assumption, how much easier it must be to
> "trick" it today when it has no such effective policies and processes in
> place!
>
> Thrapostibongles
>
>
>

-- 
Dennis C. During
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Foundation management of volunteers

[Dennis During]

It might be a good thread were it based on a better line of argument.

You are making too much of an artifact of the drafting of a Wikipedia
policy.  The intent was clearly to prevent 1., bootstrapping, ie, writing
an article and using it as a 'reliable source' for another article, and 2.,
reliance on content of a wiki article which is subject to change.  There
might also have been other ways to manipulate the software and policies to
the detriment of the project.

The main thrust of the policy was to compel the use of reliable sources.
Rather than make a policy specific to WP or other project wikis, it was
much simpler to simply declare that WP was not a reliable source.

On Mon, Jun 17, 2019 at 1:55 PM Mister Thrapostibongles <
thrapostibong...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Dennis,
>
> I started this thread to discuss both conduct and content policies on
> Wikipedia, and indeed how the two interact.  Wikipedia is a project to
> build an encyclopaedia.  By its own criteria, encyclopaedias are reliable
> sources and Wikipedia is not a reliable source; hence by its own criteria,
> Wikipedia is not an encyclopaedia.  That is, it is currently in a state of
> failure with respect to its own mission.
>
> One of the reasons for that state of failure is indeed the failure to
> provide a collegial working atmosphere.
>
> Thrapostibongles
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 17, 2019 at 2:19 PM Dennis During  wrote:
>
> > "One (and not the most important) pieces of evidence for Wikipedia being
> in
> > a failed state is precisely that
> > it does not, by the community's own admission, constitute a reliable
> source
> > "
> >
> > You have made this argument more than once. That might be a piece of
> > evidence seems both wrong and not relevant to the sense in which people
> > here as saying WP has failed, which is as a welcoming, "safe" environment
> > for contributors and would-be contributors.
> >
> > It is good policy to make sure that contributors reach out to other
> > sources, even when one believes that Wikipedia is as reliable as the
> > average tertiary source we allow as a reference. It prevents us from
> > relying exclusively on what can easily turn out to be a very narrow set
> of
> > points of view.  Does/did the Encyclopedia Britanica cite other EB
> articles
> > as references rather than include them as "see alsos"?
> >
> > On Mon, Jun 17, 2019 at 8:27 AM Mister Thrapostibongles <
> > thrapostibong...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Vito
> > >
> > > This rather tends to support my point.  One (and not the most
> important)
> > > pieces of evidence for Wikipedia being in a failed state is precisely
> > that
> > > it does not , by the community's own admission, constitute a reliable
> > > source:whereas "Reputable tertiary sources
> > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:TERTIARY>, such as
> > > introductory-level university textbooks, almanacs, and encyclopedias,
> may
> > > be cited".  So Wikipedia fails in its aim of being an encyclopaedia on
> > one
> > > of the most important tests one could imagine, namely reliability.
> And a
> > > reason for that is its lack of effective content management policies
> and
> > > mechanisms to put them into effect (in the old days we called that
> being
> > an
> > > editor, but that word on Wikipedia now is more or less a redundant
> > synonym
> > > for contributor).
> > >
> > > Now suppose that Wikipedia had effective editorial policies and
> processes
> > > that allowed it to assume the status of a reliable source, just like
> the
> > > encyclopaedia it aims to be.  You say that even in that situation, it
> > would
> > > be easy to manipulate.  On that assumption, how much easier it must be
> to
> > > "trick" it today when it has no such effective policies and processes
> in
> > > place!
> > >
> > > Thrapostibongles
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > --
> > Dennis C. During
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

[Dennis During]

On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 10:24 AM Gerard Meijssen 
wrote:

> Hoi,
> I am afraid that this is a misrepresentation. Romaine is a "self confessed"
> person with Asperger. Within our community we have an overrepresentation
> with people with a mental health issue. This is to be expected. This is
> typically not appreciated hardly ever understood. I have noticed before
> that people with a mental health issue got into problems including the
> imposition of a life time ban.
>
> I do not know about trained and responsible but when there is no experience
> with mental health, given the composition of our community when there is no
> understanding for mental health issues, I do not think trained and
> responsible is justified. The notion that we are dealing with a "mob" is
> not helpful, it alienates the people you target with your speech. It
> prevents us from getting to an understanding.\
> Thanks,
>   GerardM
>

I wish I had articulated so well the source of my shame at being part of a
movement that has yielded this result for this case.  It seems like
self-righteous, crusading intolerance at work.


-- 
Dennis C. During
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fram en.wp office yearlock block

[Dennis During]

Is posting 'fuck random' "behaviour that is unacceptable in any
collegial working
environment"? I think not. In many work environments frank expressions of
anger are a consequence of high levels of engagement in the work.

It may be that in order to encourage participation by those who are very
sensitive to potentially hostile environments (We used to say
thin-skinned.), the community needs to ban behavior that is often  viewed
as normal in other environments.  But something is likely to be lost in the
process: the deep commitment of some talented contributors. I, for one,
will regret this and may prefer disengagement from this community to
walking on eggshells.

On Wed, Jun 12, 2019, 08:46 Mister Thrapostibongles <
thrapostibong...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Yaroslav,
>
> I think it's reasonably clear that the English Wikipedia community and its
> community structures, such as its Arbitration Committee, and processes are
> not capable of maintaining a productive, harassment-free environment for
> the volunteer workers.  For example, they have consistently failed, after
> several attempts, to handle the case of a volunteer who used the word
> "Cxxx" about a fellow worker, and the community has agreed that telling
> others to "Fxxx off" is acceptable.  These are symptoms of a dysfunctional
> community, which tolerates behaviour that is unacceptable in any collegial
> working environment, and it is right that the Foundation should step in.
>
> Thrapostibongles
>
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fram en.wp office yearlock block

[Dennis During]

Did WMF have to get involved because the complainant was part of ARBCOM?
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fram en.wp office yearlock block

[Dennis During]

This seems like a mighty menacing line of discourse, coming from someone in
a position to initiate a block.  I don't think I should participate in any
WP or WMF or Commons or WikiData discussions if such menace is the norm.

On Wed, Jun 12, 2019 at 8:05 PM Rebecca O'Neill 
wrote:

> It wasn't hostile Pine, but it wasn't a great idea to call out one of the
> few women on the chain for assuming bad faith given some of the other
> statements and assertions on the thread.
>
> I did not make any assumptions on the motivations of those who take part in
> the on wiki discussions, I just stated that the results were often hostile
> environments which make engagement difficult or intimidating. And then I am
> name checked for making this rather mundane and oft cited issue. It was
> just a poor choice given the circumstances overall.
>
> I don't take part as a I don't want my "card to be marked" or have certain
> editors monitoring my on wiki contributions based on assumptions made about
> me and my editing motivations.
>
> On Thu 13 Jun 2019, 00:33 Pine W,  wrote:
>
> > I'm sorry if my post sounded hostile. I wish that I knew what to say.
> >
> >
> > Pine
> > ( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine )
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Jun 12, 2019, 16:19 Rebecca O'Neill 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Pine,
> > >
> > > While I appreciate your attempt at guidance here, given some of the
> > > messages in the chain the fact that you are calling me out as assuming
> > bad
> > > faith out of all the participants does not inspire me to take part at
> > all.
> > >
> > > Thanks, but I feel that I might just go back to deleting these onerous
> > > threads as has been my custom in the past rather than be singled out in
> > > such a manner.
> > >
> > > If I had wanted to be tone policed o would have engaged with the
> on-wiki
> > > conversation.
> > >
> > > Rebecca
> > >
> > > On Wed 12 Jun 2019, 23:58 Pine W,  wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi Rebecca,
> > > >
> > > > These conversations can be stressful for many of us, including me.
> > > >
> > > > Speaking up in public can take courage. Thank you for participating
> > here,
> > > > and I encourage you to continue to participate even if you are in the
> > > > minority regarding a certain discussion.
> > > >
> > > > I know that this can be difficult to do, and it's sometimes difficult
> > for
> > > > me to do, but please be careful about linking strong opinions with
> > > assuming
> > > > bad faith on the part of the people who state those opinions.
> Sometimes
> > > > there are good reasons for assuming bad faith, but I think that it's
> > easy
> > > > for many of us, including me, to rush to the conclusion that someone
> > who
> > > > disagrees with me may be acting in bad faith.
> > > >
> > > > I am sorry if you feel that you are not welcome here. Public
> > discussions
> > > > can be rough, but personally I think that they are usually for the
> > best.
> > > >
> > > > I hope that my comments here are somehow encouraging.
> > > >
> > > > Pine
> > > > ( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine )
> > > > ___
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > 
> > > ___
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > 
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 



-- 
Dennis C. During
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

[Dennis During]

I am ashamed that the movement has a climate that allows this unfortunate
outcome

On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 7:15 AM Romaine Wiki  wrote:

>  Dear community,
>
>
> About a month ago I have decided that I will indefinitely no longer attend
> any WMF funded events as result of bullying, attempts to silence me,
> intimidation and treats against me. This has resulted in that I feel
> extremely unsafe as the result of the behaviour of only a few individuals.
>
>
-- 
Dennis C. During
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fram en.wp office yearlock block

[Dennis During]

Just so long as we don't make exaggeration/hyperbole a violation of the
Code of Conduct.

On Sat, Jun 15, 2019 at 5:28 PM Vi to  wrote:

> I disagree with using this kind of metaphor as long as they imply an
> overestimation of the importance of the fictional universe we're dealing
> with.
> For sanity sake it's always useful to remember this is just "a strange
> website".
>
> Vito
>
-- 
Dennis C. During
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Supporting Wikinews [was: Reviewing our brand system for our 2030 goals]

[Dennis During]

It would be nice if more Commons images HAD proper location and context
info. As it is experts are often needed to identify meaningful content and
categories. Those tasks are not the equivalent of minor copyediting, not
that proofreading is a minor matter.

IOW, Commons *needs* more collaborative effort.
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fram en.wp office yearlock block

[Dennis During]

 On Sat, Jun 29, 2019, 14:48 Thomas Townsend  wrote:


Considering that nobody posting  has any information about the
facts of the case, would it not be better to cease from speculation
which can have no positive aspects but will certainly be offensive or
even defamatory to named individuals.

What you recommend is against human nature.  It is natural for one to try
to anticipate what others might do, especially if it might have
consequences for oneself.

I'm not looking forward to a wikiworld where judgment and punishment
rendered in camera by folks whose questionable interpretations of
platitudinous Missions and Codes is apparently shaped by the values of an
increasingly intolerant subculture.
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] The timeline of the Wikimedia strategy: please reconsider!

[Dennis During]

Every participant in an iterative multi-party process likes to be the
last.  In a certain sense the larger community will be the last. They can
opt to abandon the movement.  But for those volunteers who will be loyal to
the movement, it is the far-away Board has the last look and final say-so.
Given the difficulty of actually getting any significant level of response
from the larger community, especially of mere content contributors, it
would be nice - and wise IMO - to allow for the larger community to have a
long look at finished draft proposals.

The sad fact is that the only way the larger community would be likely to
take such proposals seriously would be if there were an imminent deadline.
Unfortunately, it is hard to take the imminent deadline seriously given the
absence of substance in some areas.  Thus a chance has been missed to get
substantial involvement from the broader community.

I wonder why some of the working groups have so little to show.  Is there
substantial disagreement among members?

On Sat, Aug 24, 2019 at 2:00 PM Ziko van Dijk  wrote:

> Hello,
>
> the "Recommendations" are a problem because we are so late in the strategy
> process. They are supposed to give the community a chance for community
> input. If the quality of the "Recommendations" is so poor, then the chance
> for the community to give substantial input is very limited.
> In this unready state, the "Recommendations" or parts of them should not
> have been published. It is not appropriate to ask the community to invest
> time in reading texts that are not ready.
> The experience is very frustrating.
>
> Kind regards
> Ziko
>
>
>
> Am Do., 22. Aug. 2019 um 13:00 Uhr schrieb Nicole Ebber <
> nicole.eb...@wikimedia.de>:
>
> > Hi Ziko and all,
> >
> > Thanks for sharing your concerns and suggestions. I have posted a
> response
> > to the other thread and hope to have addressed your questions there as
> > well. Let me know if you need further clarification.
> >
> >
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2019-August/093303.html
> >
> > Best wishes,
> > Nicole
> >
> > On Sun, 18 Aug 2019 at 10:50, Aron Manning 
> wrote:
> >
> > > On Sat, 17 Aug 2019 at 22:07, Jeff Hawke 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > "Open community input will be accepted until September 15, after
> which
> > > > working groups will refine and finalize their work using movement
> input
> > > as
> > > >
> > >
> > > I expect the drafts to be revised for new rounds of feedback within
> that
> > > timeframe. In one week the community gathered information fundamental
> to
> > > these drafts, but missing from the first iteration. In an agile
> > environment
> > > this can be incorporated into the drafts in a few days, and even in
> > > wikipedian time 1-2 weeks could be enough to publish the next
> iteration,
> > > and keep the conversation alive.
> > > I hope after Wikimania the WG members will be able to dedicate time for
> > > this, otherwise the tight timeline is not possible. Ideally the most
> > > popular drafts would be updated weekly, or more often, answering some
> > > feedback in each iteration, not necessarily all of it.
> > >
> > > Aron
> > >
> > >
> > > ᐧ
> > > ___
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > 
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Nicole Ebber
> > Adviser International Relations
> > Program Manager Wikimedia 2030 Movement Strategy
> > Wikimedia Deutschland e. V. | Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 | 10963 Berlin
> > Tel. (030) 219 158 26-0
> > https://wikimedia.de
> >
> > Unsere Vision ist eine Welt, in der alle Menschen am Wissen der
> Menschheit
> > teilhaben, es nutzen und mehren können. Helfen Sie uns dabei!
> > https://spenden.wikimedia.de
> >
> > Wikimedia Deutschland — Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V.
> > Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg
> unter
> > der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für
> > Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/029/42207.
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Foundation joins the global climate strike

[Dennis During]

I am profoundly disappointed that WMF employees don't value the mission.
Instead they seem to simply follow fashion and force users and volunteers
to follow their fashionable methods of advocacy.  They use their monopoly
power to deny free access to the world's knowledge that many thousands of
volunteers have diligently assembled. This time it is to show solidarity
with environmental advocates. What will it be next time?

On Fri, Sep 20, 2019, 15:35 Pine W  wrote:

> I have a few comments.
>
> While I appreciate the sentiment, I wouldn't have put the
> wikimediafoundation.org domain "on strike", just as I wouldn't have put a
> government agency's website "on strike". I think that some discussion of
> climate change would be fine, but I think that WMF's action here is
> somewhat strange.
>
> I think that asking about the climate impact of staff travel is fine.
> However, I would also include questions about travel for Wikimedia events
> more broadly. I believe that the WMF Board has indicated support for trying
> to reduce the Wikiverse's contributions to climate change. As has been
> mentioned in this thread, WMF released a report yesterday
> <
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2019-September/093519.html
> >
> on the subject of sustainability. While I have not read it, I think that
> measuring and attempting to reduce reduce negative environmental impacts
> from Wikimedia activities is good, including negative environmental impacts
> from travel. However, I also think that there are some benefits to morale
> and communications from in person meetings, so I would be reluctant to
> eliminate travel and conferences entirely.
>
> I think that it's fine to ask whether WMF senior management is practicing
> what they preach. However, Fae, I feel that your tone in this thread is
> excessively harsh on this point. I think that you could ask very similar
> questions with a tone that is calmer.
>
> On the subject of environmental sustainability, my main concern at this
> time is the banner on the WMF website which I feel is somewhat weird and is
> inconsistent with WMF's goal of being "essential infrastructure". Do we
> want "essential infrastructure" to go on strike, particularly when that
> infrastructure is supposed to be for an organization that provides public
> service and supports the community in publishing reliable scientific
> information? I think not. However, I think that the banner is regrettably
> consistent with the series of surprising decisions from WMF in the past few
> months. That is, to me, the most concerning element in all of this. If WMF
> wants to be a public service infrastructure provider then I think that it
> should act like one.
>
> Pine
> ( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine )
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Foundation joins the global climate strike

[Dennis During]

I couldn't get onto WP or en.wikt shortly after I had heard about the MW
participation in the strike. I jumped to an apparently wrong conclusion.
Sorry.

I am glad that the availability of free knowledge for all was not disrupted.

On Sat, Sep 21, 2019 at 3:19 AM Todd Allen  wrote:

> As far as I can tell, only the Foundation wiki is showing the strike
> message. That particular one is pretty much theirs to do as they like with.
>
> If they started doing that to any other wikis without their agreement,
> well, then we'd have a problem. But so long as it's only the WMF wiki
> itself, I don't see the issue.
>
> Todd
>
> On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 6:45 PM Dennis During  wrote:
>
> > I am profoundly disappointed that WMF employees don't value the mission.
> > Instead they seem to simply follow fashion and force users and volunteers
> > to follow their fashionable methods of advocacy.  They use their monopoly
> > power to deny free access to the world's knowledge that many thousands of
> > volunteers have diligently assembled. This time it is to show solidarity
> > with environmental advocates. What will it be next time?
> >
> > On Fri, Sep 20, 2019, 15:35 Pine W  wrote:
> >
> > > I have a few comments.
> > >
> > > While I appreciate the sentiment, I wouldn't have put the
> > > wikimediafoundation.org domain "on strike", just as I wouldn't have
> put
> > a
> > > government agency's website "on strike". I think that some discussion
> of
> > > climate change would be fine, but I think that WMF's action here is
> > > somewhat strange.
> > >
> > > I think that asking about the climate impact of staff travel is fine.
> > > However, I would also include questions about travel for Wikimedia
> events
> > > more broadly. I believe that the WMF Board has indicated support for
> > trying
> > > to reduce the Wikiverse's contributions to climate change. As has been
> > > mentioned in this thread, WMF released a report yesterday
> > > <
> > >
> >
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2019-September/093519.html
> > > >
> > > on the subject of sustainability. While I have not read it, I think
> that
> > > measuring and attempting to reduce reduce negative environmental
> impacts
> > > from Wikimedia activities is good, including negative environmental
> > impacts
> > > from travel. However, I also think that there are some benefits to
> morale
> > > and communications from in person meetings, so I would be reluctant to
> > > eliminate travel and conferences entirely.
> > >
> > > I think that it's fine to ask whether WMF senior management is
> practicing
> > > what they preach. However, Fae, I feel that your tone in this thread is
> > > excessively harsh on this point. I think that you could ask very
> similar
> > > questions with a tone that is calmer.
> > >
> > > On the subject of environmental sustainability, my main concern at this
> > > time is the banner on the WMF website which I feel is somewhat weird
> and
> > is
> > > inconsistent with WMF's goal of being "essential infrastructure". Do we
> > > want "essential infrastructure" to go on strike, particularly when that
> > > infrastructure is supposed to be for an organization that provides
> public
> > > service and supports the community in publishing reliable scientific
> > > information? I think not. However, I think that the banner is
> regrettably
> > > consistent with the series of surprising decisions from WMF in the past
> > few
> > > months. That is, to me, the most concerning element in all of this. If
> > WMF
> > > wants to be a public service infrastructure provider then I think that
> it
> > > should act like one.
> > >
> > > Pine
> > > ( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine )
> > > ___
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guide

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Foundation joins the global climate strike

[Dennis During]

Does anyone know whether the screen allowed a user to click through?

On Sun, Sep 22, 2019 at 1:25 PM Fæ  wrote:

> A screenshot has been uploaded to
>
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:WMF_global_climate_strike_banner_2019.png
> .
>
> Unfortunately, though web.archive.org has snapshots of the website,
> these do not appear to render the banner as it displayed in a browser
> on the day.
>
> Fae
> --
> fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
>
> On Sun, 22 Sep 2019 at 09:30, Alexander N Krassotkin
>  wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> >   Does anyone have a screenshot of the page with this banner? Or a
> > link to an online archive? Or at least the banner itself?
> >
> > sasha.
> >
> > On Sat, Sep 21, 2019 at 9:54 PM Dennis During 
> wrote:
> > >
> > > I couldn't get onto WP or en.wikt shortly after I had heard about the
> MW
> > > participation in the strike. I jumped to an apparently wrong
> conclusion.
> > > Sorry.
> > >
> > > I am glad that the availability of free knowledge for all was not
> disrupted.
> > >
> > > On Sat, Sep 21, 2019 at 3:19 AM Todd Allen 
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > As far as I can tell, only the Foundation wiki is showing the strike
> > > > message. That particular one is pretty much theirs to do as they
> like with.
> > > >
> > > > If they started doing that to any other wikis without their
> agreement,
> > > > well, then we'd have a problem. But so long as it's only the WMF wiki
> > > > itself, I don't see the issue.
> > > >
> > > > Todd
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 6:45 PM Dennis During 
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I am profoundly disappointed that WMF employees don't value the
> mission.
> > > > > Instead they seem to simply follow fashion and force users and
> volunteers
> > > > > to follow their fashionable methods of advocacy.  They use their
> monopoly
> > > > > power to deny free access to the world's knowledge that many
> thousands of
> > > > > volunteers have diligently assembled. This time it is to show
> solidarity
> > > > > with environmental advocates. What will it be next time?
> > > > >
> > > > > On Fri, Sep 20, 2019, 15:35 Pine W  wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > I have a few comments.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > While I appreciate the sentiment, I wouldn't have put the
> > > > > > wikimediafoundation.org domain "on strike", just as I wouldn't
> have
> > > > put
> > > > > a
> > > > > > government agency's website "on strike". I think that some
> discussion
> > > > of
> > > > > > climate change would be fine, but I think that WMF's action here
> is
> > > > > > somewhat strange.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I think that asking about the climate impact of staff travel is
> fine.
> > > > > > However, I would also include questions about travel for
> Wikimedia
> > > > events
> > > > > > more broadly. I believe that the WMF Board has indicated support
> for
> > > > > trying
> > > > > > to reduce the Wikiverse's contributions to climate change. As
> has been
> > > > > > mentioned in this thread, WMF released a report yesterday
> > > > > > <
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2019-September/093519.html
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > on the subject of sustainability. While I have not read it, I
> think
> > > > that
> > > > > > measuring and attempting to reduce reduce negative environmental
> > > > impacts
> > > > > > from Wikimedia activities is good, including negative
> environmental
> > > > > impacts
> > > > > > from travel. However, I also think that there are some benefits
> to
> > > > morale
> > > > > > and communications from in person meetings, so I would be
> reluctant to
> > > > > > eliminate travel and conferences entirely.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I think that it's fine to ask whether WMF senior management is
> > > > practicing
> > > > > > what they preach. However, Fae, I fe

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Persistence of old vandalized Wikipedia articles in Google search, especially for zombie attacks

[Dennis During]

Isn't it statistically inevitable that some offensively vandalized version
of some WP article will happen to be the version that Google caches? I
suppose they don't refresh the cache very often. Weekly? I know Google
doesn't make it easy to complain effectively about such blunders.

On Sun, Oct 6, 2019 at 10:20 AM Fæ  wrote:

> Can someone explain how a vandalized version of the Wikipedia article
> about Henry Kissinger that was only visible for a rather short time
> several days ago, is still being promoted in Google searches
> today?[1][2]
>
> The "zombie sex" vandalism was only visible for a few minutes, quickly
> fixed by admin El C and the page indefinitely protected. Yet it is
> this four day old version that Google searches were using in
> preference to either the current version or older versions with more
> long term public visibility. In the age of real smart Google AI and
> active mirrors of Wikipedia, how is this still our reality? It does
> not give me confidence that politically vandalized articles
> potentially for the benefit of state sponsored agents are not also
> being promoted in searches for several days, regardless of how
> fleetingly they are visible on Wikipedia and speedily corrected by
> volunteers.
>
> It would be good to have a simple explanation of any improvements to
> how this works, and our Wikimedia projects pragmatic relationship with
> Google and other search engines.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Links
> 1.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Henry_Kissinger=history
> 2. https://twitter.com/Faewik/status/1180847863854706689/photo/1
>
> Fae
> --
> fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
>
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 



-- 
Dennis C. During
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Brand Project: Who are we as a movement?

[Dennis During]

I, for one, welcome Wikipedia Dictionary, Wikipedia Source, Wikipedia
Species, Wikipedia Commons.

Why is it, though, that others go the other way? like American Airlines
subordinating to AMR, Google to Alphabet.  Citibank went in a direction the
opposite of the way that WMF is going, with Citi becoming a prefix with
multiple uses.

On Fri, Mar 13, 2020 at 3:48 PM Pine W  wrote:

> Although Mike and I have differences of opinion about centralizing on
> the "Wikipedia" brand, one way in which I agree with Mike is that
> there are ways to have branding discussions that are not themselves
> controversial. Even if consensus was not reached, I for one would be
> more accepting of the process.
>
> Some departments in WMF seem to be more on board with regards to
> process than others. In particular, I think that Audiences these days
> generally does a good job, and also I like Tech News.
>
> Outside of WMF, the Wikidata team at WMDE produces very informative
> newsletters each week. They seem to do good work without spending
> money on outside consultants.
>
> So, why all of these issues in WMF Communications? I don't get it.
>
> Pine
> ( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine )
>
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 



-- 
Dennis C. During
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Draft schedule of Wikimedia CEE Online Meeting 2020

[Dennis During]

I was INTENTIONALLY putting others in the same position that the e-mail put
me AND I reinforced the point by INTENTIONALLY referring to US DoD.

On Wed, Sep 16, 2020 at 1:00 PM Asaf Bartov  wrote:

> Indeed, acronyms are best expanded on first use.  A truly constructive way
> to point it out, Mr. During, would have been to model the change you would
> like to see yourself.
>
> CEE = Central and Eastern Europe.
>
> A.
>
> On Wed, Sep 16, 2020 at 7:57 PM Dennis During  wrote:
>
> > Would it be unreasonable to ask that a notice to a general mailing list
> > from an organizational unit such as CEE actually had the full name of the
> > organizational unit?  Even the two linked Meta pages did not contain the
> > name. Only the Eventbrite page had it.  Some mailings seem to have
> wandered
> > in from the US DoD or some other country's bureaucracy. It doesn't seem
> > unreasonable to me that the opening post for a new thread should not have
> > any acronym or initialism, but should have the topical organization,
> event,
> > proposal, or whatever spelled out (Yes, even CoC.). It would seem to me
> > that such is a requirement for the kind of inclusiveness we are allegedly
> > seeking.
> >
> > On Wed, Sep 16, 2020 at 9:41 AM Kiril Simeonovski <
> > kiril.simeonov...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Dear all,
> > >
> > > I would like to inform you that the draft schedule
> > > <
> > >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_CEE_Online_Meeting_2020/Programme#Schedule
> > > >
> > > of
> > > the Wikimedia CEE Online Meeting 2020, which will take place from 2–4
> > >  October, has been published. We have received proposals covering
> > > interesting topics with creative ideas and it was a real challenge to
> > > accommodate them in the optimal way. Thank you for your interest in
> > taking
> > > part as a speaker.
> > >
> > > The registration for the event is still open. You can add your username
> > to
> > > the list of participants
> > > <
> > >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_CEE_Online_Meeting_2020/Participants/List
> > > >
> > > and
> > > subsequently confirm your participation by getting your ticket for free
> > on
> > > the following link
> > > <
> > >
> >
> https://www.eventbrite.com/e/wikimedia-cee-online-meeting-2020-tickets-116483763071
> > > >
> > > . *Note that the number of participants per community is unlimited and
> we
> > > also welcome interested participants from outside the CEE region.
> > > *Additionally,
> > > there is no obligation to attend all sessions at the conference and you
> > can
> > > freely choose only those that you find particularly interested in.
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > > Kiril
> > > ___
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Dennis C. During
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
>
>
> --
> Asaf Bartov 
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>


-- 
Dennis C. During
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 
<mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Trust and safety on Wikimedia projects

[Dennis During]

 "Work with community functionaries to create and refine a retroactive
review process for cases brought by involved parties, excluding those cases
which pose legal or other severe risks "

What does "retroactive review process" mean?

I hope it doesn't mean applying standards that were not promulgated at the
time to past actions and applying severe sanctions to the alleged
perpetrators.

On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 5:59 PM María Sefidari  wrote:

>  Hello everyone,
>
> Today, the Wikimedia Foundation Board of Trustees unanimously passed a
> resolution and published a statement[1] regarding the urgent need to make
> our movement more safe and inclusive by addressing harassment and
> incivility on Wikimedia projects. The statement builds on prior statements
> from 2016 and 2019,[2][3] affirms the forthcoming introduction of a
> universal code of conduct, and directs the Wikimedia Foundation to rapidly
> and substantively address these challenges in complement with existing
> community processes.
>
> This includes developing sustainable practices and tools that eliminate
> harassment, toxicity, and incivility, promote inclusivity, cultivate
> respectful discourse, reduce harms to participants, protect the projects
> from disinformation and bad actors, and promote trust in our projects.
>
> Over the past nearly twenty years, the movement has taken a number of
> unique and sometimes extraordinary steps to create an environment unlike
> anything else online: a place to share knowledge, to learn, and to
> collaborate together. In order for the movement to continue to thrive and
> make progress to our mission, it is essential to build a culture that is
> welcoming and inclusive.
>
> Research has consistently shown that members of our communities have been
> subject to hostility and toxic behavior in Wikimedia spaces.[4][5] The
> Wikimedia 2030 movement strategy recommendations have also identified the
> safety of our Wikimedia spaces as a core issue to address if we are to
> reach the 2030 goals, with concrete recommendations which include a
> universal code of conduct, pathways for users to privately report
> incidents, and a baseline of community responsibilities.[6]
>
> While the movement has made progress in addressing harassment and toxic
> behavior, we recognize there is still much more to do. The Board’s
> resolution and statement today is a step toward establishing clear,
> consistent guidelines around acceptable behavior on our projects, and
> guiding the Wikimedia Foundation in supporting the movement’s ability to
> ensure a healthy environment for those who participate in our projects.
>
> * Developing and introducing, in close consultation with volunteer
> contributor communities, a universal code of conduct that will be a binding
> minimum set of standards across all Wikimedia projects;
>
> * Taking actions to ban, sanction, or otherwise limit the access of
> Wikimedia movement participants who do not comply with these policies and
> the Terms of Use;
>
> * Working with community functionaries to create and refine a retroactive
> review process for cases brought by involved parties, excluding those cases
> which pose legal or other severe risks; and
>
> * Significantly increasing support for and collaboration with community
> functionaries primarily enforcing such compliance in a way that prioritizes
> the personal safety of these functionaries.
>
> Together, we have made our movement what it is today. In this same way, we
> must all be responsible for building the positive community culture of the
> future, and accountable for stopping harassment and toxic behavior on our
> sites.
>
> We have also made this statement available on Meta-Wiki for translation and
> wider distribution.[1]
>
> On behalf of the Board,
> María, Board Chair
>
> [1]
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Board_noticeboard/May_2020_-_Board_of_Trustees_on_Healthy_Community_Culture,_Inclusivity,_and_Safe_Spaces
>
> [2]
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Board_noticeboard/November_2016_-_Statement_on_Healthy_Community_Culture,_Inclusivity,_and_Safe_Spaces
>
> [3]
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Board_noticeboard/Archives/2019#Board_statement_posted_at_Community_response_to_the_Wikimedia_Foundation's_ban_of_Fram
>
> [4] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Harassment_survey_2015
>
> [5]
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Insights/2018_Report#Experience_of_harassment_has_not_declined_since_2017_and_appears_to_remain_steady
>
> [6]
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Recommendations/Provide_for_Safety_and_Inclusion
>
> == Statement on Healthy Community Culture, Inclusivity, and Safe Spaces ==
>
> Harassment, toxic behavior, and incivility in the Wikimedia movement are
> contrary to our shared values and detrimental to our vision and mission.
> They negatively impact our ability to collect, share, and disseminate free
> 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Draft schedule of Wikimedia CEE Online Meeting 2020

[Dennis During]

Would it be unreasonable to ask that a notice to a general mailing list
from an organizational unit such as CEE actually had the full name of the
organizational unit?  Even the two linked Meta pages did not contain the
name. Only the Eventbrite page had it.  Some mailings seem to have wandered
in from the US DoD or some other country's bureaucracy. It doesn't seem
unreasonable to me that the opening post for a new thread should not have
any acronym or initialism, but should have the topical organization, event,
proposal, or whatever spelled out (Yes, even CoC.). It would seem to me
that such is a requirement for the kind of inclusiveness we are allegedly
seeking.

On Wed, Sep 16, 2020 at 9:41 AM Kiril Simeonovski <
kiril.simeonov...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> I would like to inform you that the draft schedule
> <
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_CEE_Online_Meeting_2020/Programme#Schedule
> >
> of
> the Wikimedia CEE Online Meeting 2020, which will take place from 2–4
>  October, has been published. We have received proposals covering
> interesting topics with creative ideas and it was a real challenge to
> accommodate them in the optimal way. Thank you for your interest in taking
> part as a speaker.
>
> The registration for the event is still open. You can add your username to
> the list of participants
> <
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_CEE_Online_Meeting_2020/Participants/List
> >
> and
> subsequently confirm your participation by getting your ticket for free on
> the following link
> <
> https://www.eventbrite.com/e/wikimedia-cee-online-meeting-2020-tickets-116483763071
> >
> . *Note that the number of participants per community is unlimited and we
> also welcome interested participants from outside the CEE region.
> *Additionally,
> there is no obligation to attend all sessions at the conference and you can
> freely choose only those that you find particularly interested in.
>
> Best regards,
> Kiril
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
>


-- 
Dennis C. During
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system

[Dennis During]

I think he's looking for openness. That doesn't require one to
psychoanalyze him; just a straightforward reading of what he has said,
especially in the context of wikidom. If there is some reason why OTRS
isn't important enough to merit policies, supervision, and transparency,
that should be easy to explain. If there is some other reason why we
shouldn't trouble our little heads about it, it should be possible to try
to explain that.

On Sun, Jul 19, 2020, 18:01 effe iets anders 
wrote:

> On Sun, Jul 19, 2020 at 7:55 AM Andy Mabbett 
> wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 19 Jul 2020 at 09:03, effe iets anders  >
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > I rather have
> > > that people make their assumptions explicit so that you have an
> > opportunity
> > > to clarify, and use that as the basis for further conversation.
> >
> > You seem to be assuming - wrongly - that I have made assumptions which
> > I have not made explicit.
> >
> > Ironically, you have not explicitly stated your assumption.
> >
> > > My reading of this discussion is that there is a lot of 'secrecy'
> assumed
> >
> > No secrecy is being assumed. Too much secrecy is being observed.
> >
> > > where it is probably more a lack of existence of policies in the way
> Andy
> > > would like them to exist. This is a known problem with OTRS.
> >
> > It may well be that some policies that should exist, do not, or are
> > ''de facto'' without being written down. But until we see a
> > comprehensive list of those that do exist and are written, how can we
> > know?
> >
> > > I feel comfortable sharing that the set of OTRS-wide 'policies' that is
> > on
> > > the wiki, is probably of little interest to this matter.
> >
> > I am very interested in seeing all those 'policies'; as others have
> > said they are.
> >
> > As noted earlier in this thread, I do not see how I could be any more
> > clear about my wish to see them.
> >
> > > This is why I
> > > noted that Jonatan's response could be misleading, because it implies
> all
> > > kind of secrecy that doesn't exist.
> >
> > It stated, not implied, that "the Confidentiality Agreement all OTRS
> > agents sign" prevented him from answering some of the questions asked
> > on-wiki in February, and quoted at the start of this thread.
> >
> > > There are actually a few policies
> > > linked at [[m:OTRS ]], that are
> > > simply copied there (Access, Activity policies).
> >
> > That page, and those linked from it, do not answer the questions to
> > which I have already referred.
> >
> > > There is some stuff about
> > > privacy, confidentiality and how to deal with mailing lists. Imho
> nothing
> > > that exciting.
> >
> > Perhaps not exciting to you; but I and others argue that such content
> > should nonetheless be public. We have been told that OTRS agents are
> > discussing the matter on their private email and IRC channels, but
> > then... Nothing.
> >
> > > OTRS is an immensely diverse system, and I don't think it's helpful to
> > try
> > > to analyze that with overly broad questions.
> >
> > I do not accept that questions such as, for example:
> >
> >5 how is OTRS overseen, and who by?
> >
> >7 what is the process for the community to remove an
> >   individual's OTRS permissions, if they fail to uphold
> >   or abide by policy?
> >
> >9 which individuals can make someone an OTRS agent,
> >   or remove their permissions?
> >
> >10 how are the individuals in #9 appointed and overseen?
> >
> > are "overly broad"; but if you think they are, how would you narrow their
> > focus?
> >
> >
> First of all: you're framing my words and taking them out of context. I'm
> not going to waste further energy on that.
>
> Answering that would require me to actually understand what the underlying
> issue is that you want to solve. I've given up on that.
>
> Lodewijk
>
>
> > --
> > Andy Mabbett
> > @pigsonthewing
> > http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
> >
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid API?

[Dennis During]

1. Never let a crisis go to waste.
2. Never let a strategy process go to waste.

If you've got something you want that is not necessarily universally loved,
make a plan and cram it into anything that doesn't make it a laughingstock.

Want to loot Constantinople? Make sure you're in the Crusade that passes by
there. This tactic is neutral, available for good, evil, partisan ends.

On Tue, Jun 16, 2020, 08:43 Chris Keating 
wrote:

> It's interesting that of all the strategy recommendations, two are so far
> being implemented. One is the Universal Code of Conduct, which has at least
> had plenty of discussion and publicity, that even precedes the strategy
> process. The other is this, which hasn't been particularly prominent
> before, but the WMF seems to have a team working on it just a couple of
> weeks after the final recommendations were published.
>
> So while doing this is one of the strategy recommendations, it doesn't seem
> that is is now happening *because of* the strategy recommendations
>
> Chris
>
> On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 10:46 AM Gergő Tisza  wrote:
>
> > You can find some more discussion at
> >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Recommendations/Iteration_3/Promote_Sustainability_and_Resilience#Freemium
> >
> > As I mentioned there, the premise of the recommendation is that the
> > movement needs new revenue sources; in part because the 2030 strategy is
> > ambitious and requires a significant increase in resources, in part
> because
> > our current lack of diversity (about 40% of the movement's budget is from
> > donations through website banners, and another 40% from past banners via
> > email campaigns and such) is a strategic risk because those donations can
> > be disrupted by various social or technical trends. For example, large
> tech
> > companies which are the starting point of people's internet experience
> > (such as Facebook or Google) clearly have aspirations to become the end
> > point as well - they try to ingest and display to their users directly as
> > much online content as they can. Today, that's not a whole lot of content
> > (you might see fragments of Wikipedia infoboxes in Google's "knowledge
> > panel", for example, but nothing resembling an encyclopedia article). Ten
> > years from now, that might be different, and so we need to consider how
> we
> > would sustain ourselves in such a world - in terms of revenue, and also
> in
> > terms of people (how would new editors join the project, if most people
> > interacted with our content not via our website, but interfaces provided
> by
> > big tech companies where there is no edit button?).
> >
> > The new API project aims to do that, both in the sense of making it
> > possible to have more equitable arrangements with bulk reusers of our
> > content (who make lots of money with it), and by making it easier to
> reuse
> > content in ways that align with our movement's values (currently, if you
> > reuse Wikipedia content in your own website or application, and want to
> > provide your users with information about the licensing or provenance of
> > that content, or allow them to contribute, the tools we provide for that
> > are third rate at best). As the recommendation mentions, erecting
> > unintentional barriers to small-scale or non-commercial reusers was very
> > much a concern, and I'm sure much care will be taken during
> implementation
> > to avoid it.
> >
> > Wrt transparency, I agree this was communicated less clearly than ideal,
> > but from the Wikimedia Foundation's point of view, it can be hard to know
> > when to consult the community and to what extent (churning out so much
> > information that few volunteers can keep up with it can be a problem too;
> > arguably early phases of the strategy process suffered from it). This is
> a
> > problem that has received considerable attention within the WMF recently
> > (unrelated to API plans) so there's at the very least an effort to make
> the
> > process of sharing plans and gathering feedback more predictable.
> > Also, the pandemic has been a huge disruption for the WMF. Normally, by
> > this point, the community would have been consulted on the draft annual
> > plan, which is where new initiatives tend to be announced; but that has
> > been delayed significantly due to so many staff members' lives being
> > upheaved. Movement events where such plans are usually discussed had to
> be
> > cancelled, and so on.
> >
> > (Written with my volunteer hat on. I was involved in the strategy process
> > and helped write the recommendation snippet Yair quoted upthread; I'm not
> > involved in the API gateway project.)
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Promotion of scientific racism in Wikipedia articles

[Dennis During]

Are you actually saying that it is promoting biological racism to mention
the fact that, say, skin color, hair color, aspects of bone structure, or
susceptibility to certain diseases are heritable characteristics of certain
human populations?

Is this some kind of practical joke you are trying to play on us?

On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 9:42 AM Fæ  wrote:

> What, you are really using a Wikimedia funded email list to promote
> biological racism? That's ... not acceptable behaviour.
>
> Go read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_racism.
>
> Fae
>
> On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 at 14:37, John Erling Blad  wrote:
> >
> > Feel free to explain how the appearance of race differences is not
> defined
> > by genetics. I have absolutely no problem accepting that people are
> > different, and that some people may even be better adapted to
> > the environment than me. ;)
> >
> > On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 3:32 PM Fæ  wrote:
> >
> > > No, we do not call other Wikipedians "Negroid" because of their
> > > appearance meeting a racist theory published in the 1930s.
> > >
> > > Or were you trying to say something else, other than defending
> > > "scientific racism" on this public list?
> > >
> > > Fae
> > >
> > > On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 at 14:25, John Erling Blad 
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I'm not sure it is wise to try to refute differences between humans,
> > > > whether we call it race or something else, it is simply too easy to
> point
> > > > out the differences. We should rather promote that differences are a
> > > > GoodThing™
> > > >
> > > > Humans do exhibit racial differences, but those differences should
> not be
> > > > used as an excuse for abusing other people.
> > > >
> > > > I'm a pink Norwegian, and I would probably die in the Kalahari
> desert,
> > > > unless rescued by someone from the San people. They are so darn cool!
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 2:57 PM Fæ  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > It is remarkably easy to find various language Wikipedia articles
> that
> > > > > actively promote scientific racism. The forthcoming WMF universal
> code
> > > > > of conduct is unlikely to directly address this type of damaging
> > > > > anti-educational content, or require projects to take action.
> > > > >
> > > > > This may surprise some, but here are two examples, and if you
> follow
> > > > > the multiple language links in each, you will find many other
> language
> > > > > examples:
> > > > >
> > > > > [1] Wikipedia article in Russian about "Negroid race" (Негроидная
> > > > > раса) and associates Negroid as being defined by genetics. Nowhere
> in
> > > > > the article is it explained that these are debunked racist
> theories.
> > > > >
> > > > > [2] Wikipedia article in Italian about "Mongoloid" (Mongoloide),
> > > > > defines being Mongoloid by physical characteristics and presents
> it as
> > > > > a scientific term with a section explaining how the Mogoloid race
> is
> > > > > geographically spread.
> > > > >
> > > > > Unfortunately, as these outdated racist theories are Wikipedia
> > > > > articles, Wikimedia Commons still hosts multiple *user created*
> > > > > "racial maps" of the human race as if this were a current
> scientific
> > > > > race taxonomy for humans. These maps are not even required to have
> > > > > warnings that their content is scientific racism or why that's a
> bad
> > > > > thing.[3]
> > > > >
> > > > > At the current time, nobody is solving this problem with systemic
> > > > > racism and I am unaware of the WMF funding a project that will take
> > > > > action to fix it, nor even tracking this repugnant material. The
> idea
> > > > > that we might still be vaguely talking about how bad it is that
> > > > > Wikipedia is being used to promote "Negroid race" as science in
> > > > > several years time, without any systematic action to get rid of it
> or
> > > > > at least correctly reformat the article to describe it as debunked,
> > > > > should alarm everyone concerned that donor's money is supporting
> this
> > > > > content.
> > > > >
> > > > > Links
> > > > > 1.
> > > > >
> > >
> https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9D%D0%B5%D0%B3%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%B0
> > > > > 2. https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongoloide
> > > > > 3.
> > > > >
> > >
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/File:Average_East-Eurasian_ancestry_(Mongoloid).png
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > Fae
> > > > > --
> > > > > fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
> > > > >
> > > > > ___
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > >  ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Promotion of scientific racism in Wikipedia articles

[Dennis During]

I don't feel safe presenting truths in an environment where one can be
bullied for presenting truths that are unfashionable or can be so painted.
Does the Code of Conduct cover that?

On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 8:57 AM Fæ  wrote:

> It is remarkably easy to find various language Wikipedia articles that
> actively promote scientific racism. The forthcoming WMF universal code
> of conduct is unlikely to directly address this type of damaging
> anti-educational content, or require projects to take action.
>
> This may surprise some, but here are two examples, and if you follow
> the multiple language links in each, you will find many other language
> examples:
>
> [1] Wikipedia article in Russian about "Negroid race" (Негроидная
> раса) and associates Negroid as being defined by genetics. Nowhere in
> the article is it explained that these are debunked racist theories.
>
> [2] Wikipedia article in Italian about "Mongoloid" (Mongoloide),
> defines being Mongoloid by physical characteristics and presents it as
> a scientific term with a section explaining how the Mogoloid race is
> geographically spread.
>
> Unfortunately, as these outdated racist theories are Wikipedia
> articles, Wikimedia Commons still hosts multiple *user created*
> "racial maps" of the human race as if this were a current scientific
> race taxonomy for humans. These maps are not even required to have
> warnings that their content is scientific racism or why that's a bad
> thing.[3]
>
> At the current time, nobody is solving this problem with systemic
> racism and I am unaware of the WMF funding a project that will take
> action to fix it, nor even tracking this repugnant material. The idea
> that we might still be vaguely talking about how bad it is that
> Wikipedia is being used to promote "Negroid race" as science in
> several years time, without any systematic action to get rid of it or
> at least correctly reformat the article to describe it as debunked,
> should alarm everyone concerned that donor's money is supporting this
> content.
>
> Links
> 1.
> https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9D%D0%B5%D0%B3%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%B0
> 2. https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongoloide
> 3.
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/File:Average_East-Eurasian_ancestry_(Mongoloid).png
>
> Thanks,
> Fae
> --
> fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
>
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 



-- 
Dennis C. During
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Promotion of scientific racism in Wikipedia articles

[Dennis During]

So you don't believe that skin color, susceptibility to disease etc are
heritable? Have you heard of DNA?

I had sincerely hoped that the equivalent of yahooist book-burning wouldn't
take over Wikimedia. It's not just disappointing; it's scary.

On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 9:49 AM Chico Venancio 
wrote:

> I don't feel safe in an environment were racism is being labeled as
> "presenting truths".
>
> Maybe the list moderators should take a look at this thread.
>
> Chico Venancio
>
> Em ter, 16 de jun de 2020 10:42, Dennis During 
> escreveu:
>
> > I don't feel safe presenting truths in an environment where one can be
> > bullied for presenting truths that are unfashionable or can be so
> painted.
> > Does the Code of Conduct cover that?
> >
> > On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 8:57 AM Fæ  wrote:
> >
> > > It is remarkably easy to find various language Wikipedia articles that
> > > actively promote scientific racism. The forthcoming WMF universal code
> > > of conduct is unlikely to directly address this type of damaging
> > > anti-educational content, or require projects to take action.
> > >
> > > This may surprise some, but here are two examples, and if you follow
> > > the multiple language links in each, you will find many other language
> > > examples:
> > >
> > > [1] Wikipedia article in Russian about "Negroid race" (Негроидная
> > > раса) and associates Negroid as being defined by genetics. Nowhere in
> > > the article is it explained that these are debunked racist theories.
> > >
> > > [2] Wikipedia article in Italian about "Mongoloid" (Mongoloide),
> > > defines being Mongoloid by physical characteristics and presents it as
> > > a scientific term with a section explaining how the Mogoloid race is
> > > geographically spread.
> > >
> > > Unfortunately, as these outdated racist theories are Wikipedia
> > > articles, Wikimedia Commons still hosts multiple *user created*
> > > "racial maps" of the human race as if this were a current scientific
> > > race taxonomy for humans. These maps are not even required to have
> > > warnings that their content is scientific racism or why that's a bad
> > > thing.[3]
> > >
> > > At the current time, nobody is solving this problem with systemic
> > > racism and I am unaware of the WMF funding a project that will take
> > > action to fix it, nor even tracking this repugnant material. The idea
> > > that we might still be vaguely talking about how bad it is that
> > > Wikipedia is being used to promote "Negroid race" as science in
> > > several years time, without any systematic action to get rid of it or
> > > at least correctly reformat the article to describe it as debunked,
> > > should alarm everyone concerned that donor's money is supporting this
> > > content.
> > >
> > > Links
> > > 1.
> > >
> >
> https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9D%D0%B5%D0%B3%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%B0
> > > 2. https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongoloide
> > > 3.
> > >
> >
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/File:Average_East-Eurasian_ancestry_(Mongoloid).png
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Fae
> > > --
> > > fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Dennis C. During
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>



-- 
Dennis C. During
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 
<mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Long Reddit post laying out inner workings of English Wikipedia

[Dennis During]

Which reply supports some of his and Musk's points.

On Mon, Dec 12, 2022 at 1:25 PM Dan Rosenthal  wrote:

> Man, that essay reads like someone spent a grand total of 5 days reading
> Wikipedia policies, ventured into some politically fraught articles with a
> right-wing agenda, got taken to AN/I for it, and subsequently blocked or
> banned.
>
> Dan
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 12, 2022 at 6:41 AM Vi to  wrote:
>
>> I don't know whether crossing the line "musk [...] fixing [...]
>> Wikipedia" gives me more disgust or fear.
>>
>> Vito
>>
>> Il giorno lun 12 dic 2022 alle ore 05:12 reybueno1--- via Wikimedia-l <
>> wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> ha scritto:
>>
>>> This just up in /r/trueunpopularopinion and YCombinator:
>>>
>>>
>>> https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueUnpopularOpinion/comments/zieyyf/wikipedia_is_not_so_great_and_is_overrated/
>>>
>>>
>>> Quoted below because it was explicitly released under public domain:
>>>
>>> You all have heard by now that Elon Musk said that Wikipedia has a "left
>>> wing bias" when the article about Twitter Files had been suggested for
>>> deletion. This has been received with mixed responses from liberals and
>>> conservatives alike; the former dismissing it as "an attack on free
>>> knowledge" and the latter cheering the move as "against censorship" and
>>> vindication of their beliefs that Big Tech is biased against them.
>>>
>>> True, Wikipedia is supposedly editable by anyone around the world and I
>>> had been an on and off editor there for years mostly doing small-ish edits
>>> like fixing typos and reverting obvious vandalism. This is done while on IP
>>> as opposed to using accounts because I would rather that some edits (i.e.
>>> sensitive topics like religious and political areas) not tied to my name
>>> and identity. However, reality is far from the preferred sugar-coated
>>> description of Wikipedia, particularly its editing community.
>>>
>>> The editing community in overall is best described as a slightly
>>> hierarchical and militaristic "do everything right" structure,
>>> traditionally associated with Dell and recently Foxconn and now-defunct
>>> Theranos. Exceptions apply in quieter and outlier areas such as local
>>> geography and space, usually the top entry points for new users wanting to
>>> try their first hand. There are higher tolerance of good-faith mistakes
>>> such as point-of-view problems and using unreliable resources, which are
>>> usually explained in detail on how to correct by them rather than a mere
>>> warning template or even an abrupt block.
>>>
>>> Ultimately those sub-communities which can be said as populated by
>>> exopedians, have relatively little to no power over the wider and core
>>> communities, mostly dominated by metapedians. A third group called
>>> mesopedians often alternates between these inner and outer workings.
>>> Communities can have shared topical interest which are grouped by
>>> WikiProject, an example being WikiProject Science
>>>
>>> I spend a lot of time casually browsing through edit wars (can be so
>>> lame at times) like a fly on the wall, along with meta venues of Wikipedia
>>> such as Articles for Deletion, Centralized discussion Neutral Point of View
>>> Noticeboard, Biographical of Living Persons Noticeboard, Conflict of
>>> Interest Noticeboard, Administrator's Noticeboard Incidents, Sockpuppet
>>> investigations, Arbitration Committee noticeboard which is the "supreme
>>> court" in Wikipedia community for serious behavioral and conduct disputes.
>>> Therefore I can sum up how the editing community really functions, although
>>> not really as extensive as you might expect because I am not a
>>> "Wikipedioholic" with respect to inner workings.
>>>
>>> Deletionism and inclusionism
>>> This has been very perennial and core reasons for just about any
>>> disputes on Wikipedia ever D Deletionists treat Wikipedia as another
>>> "regular encyclopedia" where information has to be limited once it become
>>> very much to be covered; like cutting out junk, while inclusionists treats
>>> Wikipedia as a comprehensive encyclopedia not bound by papers and thus can
>>> afford to cover as much information as it can take; one man's junk could be
>>> another man's treasure. Personally I support the latter and often the
>>> conflict between two editing ideologies leads to factionalism, where
>>> attempts to understand mutual feelings and perspectives are inadequate or
>>> even none at all.
>>>
>>> There are no absolute standards of what defines "encyclopedic knowledge"
>>> and "notability". Inclusionism posits that almost everything could become
>>> valuable and encyclopedic in the future, even if they're aren't today. An
>>> example I can think of is events, figures and stories from World War II.
>>> Deletionism has been closely related to "academic standard kicks" and rely
>>> on the premise that Wikipedia has to be of high standard and concise. There
>>> are people who deem an addition of something as useful, and there are