[Wikimedia-l] Re: Joint Statement on Palestine
Quick question, I'm not directly against what you're saying, but... How does this viewpoint align with NPOV, or the impression of NPOV? Would you think that "If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor" explicitly rejects a position of neutrality and neutral reporting? Later you request "We urgently request the Wikimedia Foundation to prioritize the unbiased dissemination of information and the accurate and timely documentation of the ongoing human-made humanitarian disaster and the erasure of cultural heritage." How is this request for unbiased action possible if you just previously rejected a position of neutrality? I can see you feel very strongly, and I won't disagree that your action may have merit in other contexts; I also might not disagree with a mission on somewhat different grounds. That said, one should use the right tool for the right job. As it stands, how would you argue that wikimedia and wikipedia (organizations that depend on being neutral) would be the right place for this mission, specifically with this wording? sincerely, Kim Bruning On Thu, Apr 11, 2024 at 07:00:11PM +0300, Farah Jack Mustaklem wrote: > Dear fellow Wikimedians, > > On the 7th of April, a joint statement was published by Wikimedia groups, > ally organization, and individual Wikimedians expressing concern over the > humanitarian catastrophe in Palestine. The statement calls on "all > Wikimedia groups, affiliates, allies, and volunteers to unite in solidarity > with humanity and demand an immediate and lasting ceasefire to halt the > tragic loss of life and destruction of Palestinian cultural heritage." > > Additionally, the signatories call upon the WMF to "prioritize the > impartial dissemination of information and accurate, real-time > documentation of the current human-caused humanitarian disaster and erasure > of cultural heritage" and to "take proactive measures to ensure the safety > of volunteers, communities, partners and knowledge and memory institutions > from Palestine contributing to the dissemination of knowledge." > > Since the initial release, several additional groups and individuals have > signed on to the statement, and others are kindly urged to do the same. > > The statement can be found and signed here: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Joint_Statement_on_Palestine > > Peace and justice for all, > Farah > ___ > Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > Public archives at > https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/2EQSHSMGA3TIBEUSD6RV2XSTVJIGGVWO/ > To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-le...@lists.wikimedia.org ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/TOYPCOPNMWU7XRNFI6N6RPXIYERGK6BJ/ To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-le...@lists.wikimedia.org
[Wikimedia-l] Re: Bing-ChatGPT
On Sun, Mar 19, 2023 at 02:48:12AM -0700, Lauren Worden wrote: > > They have, and LLMs absolutely do encode a verbatim copy of their > training data, which can be produced intact with little effort. > https://arxiv.org/pdf/2205.10770.pdf > https://bair.berkeley.edu/blog/2020/12/20/lmmem/ My understanding so far is that encoding a verbatim copy is typically due to 'Overfitting'. This is considered a type of bug. It is undesirable for many reasons (technical, ethical, legal). Models are (supposed to be) trained to prevent this as much as possible. Clearly there was still work to be done in dec 2020 at the least. sincerely, Kim Bruning ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/5PNCR3KVBCEEKYT6I3J6VZKFE7NFIGB2/ To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-le...@lists.wikimedia.org
[Wikimedia-l] Re: Bing-ChatGPT
FWIW YMMV, Executive Summary: == * I looked into Stable Diffusion recently. BEWARE: The actual technical and legal situation on the ground with these systems is VERY different from what -say- twitter will lead you to believe. Also :Everything you know will be wrong and out of date inside 1-2 months at this time. * In general: Times are changing. For better or for worse; if we seize the initiative here, we may be able to advance our cause considerably. Stable Diffusion: == I recently got into a kerfluffle elsewhere wrt Stable Diffusion, which is a similar technology, forcing me to research it in more detail. Initially I was inclined to take claims by people opposed to SD at face value, (people claimed with absolute certainty that SD was art-theft, unethical, out to destroy artists, and all around Bad Guys (tm) ... ... but on researching I was surprised to find: * SD was FLOSS and scrupulously annotated. (may or may not be relevant here) and/or when I looked at the (C) situation one or more of the following applied: * there was no copyright whatsoever due to significant non-human input [1]. * Or there was a very strong case for transformative fair use and significant non-infringing uses as per [2]. * And even IF any actual copying/derivation could be argued, it was de minimis [3] (on average 2 bits of data per 50 byte image) Finally: * The current rate of innovation in this sphere is dizzying. From ugly muddy blobs ~12 months ago to This situation surprised me somewhat. I would be very interested to see what the ChatGPT defense will look like. In general: = On the short term, precedents or reactive legislation _might_ hurt wikipedia somewhat, but in the mid-term I have a hope that the (C) system will be found to be in need of an overhaul anyway. This would then be an opportunity for CC/FLOSS to engage and advance our goals and advocate for our ethics. sincerely, Kim [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monkey_selfie_copyright_dispute [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_Corp._of_America_v._Universal_City_Studios,_Inc. [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_minimis On Mon, Feb 20, 2023 at 10:34:16AM +0100, Anders Wennersten wrote: > BIng with ChatGPT is now released by Micrsoft. > > And from what I understand they use Wikipedia content considerably. If you > ask Who is A B and A B is not widely known, the result is more or less > identical to the content from the Wikipedia article (but worse, as it "makes > up" facts that is incorrect). > > In a way I am glad to see Wikipedia is fully relevant even in this emerging > AI-driven search world. But Google search has ben careful to always have a > link to Wikipedia besides their made up summary of facts, which here it is > missing (yet?). And for licences, they are all ignored. > > So if this is the future the number of accesses from users to Wikipedia > will collapse, and also their willingness to donate... (but our content > still a cornerstone for knowledge) > > Anders > > (I got a lot of fact from an article in Swedish main newspaper by their tech > editor. He started asking fact of himself, and when he received facts from > his Wp article plus being credited to a book he had noting to do with, he > started to try to tell/learn ChatGPT of this error. The chatPGT only got > angry accusing the techeditor for lying and in the end cut off the > conversation, as ChatGPT continued to teat the techeditor as lyer and > vandal..). > ___ > Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > Public archives at > https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/GJJNX2Y7BX5RZYGAIYTUI6O6CSBN72EH/ > To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-le...@lists.wikimedia.org ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/N2YUVV2R4L45ZWQQRX2F3V4XGVZFBNJF/ To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-le...@lists.wikimedia.org
[Wikimedia-l] Re: ChatGPT and Wikipedia
Hello Cuncutator, I think there's several lines of thought on this. On what theory would you argue that ChatGPT is violating Wiki[p|m]edia copyright? (If you've already posted reasoning elsewhere, or if someone else has posted an opinion you happen to agree with; I'd be happy to read a link as well) sincerely, Kim On Sat, Dec 10, 2022 at 11:23:48AM -0500, The Cunctator wrote: > It's trained on Wikipedia. Here's a 2020 paper from the authors. I would > argue it's violating the copyright but I'm aware the foundation isn't very > interested in defending it. > > https://arxiv.org/abs/2005.14165 > > On Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 10:42 AM Anders Wennersten > wrote: > > > Is this Ai software using info from Wikipedia directly or indirecly, and > > if not is it an alternative way of storing knowledge to the wikiway? > > > > Anders > > > > ___ > > Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines > > at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > Public archives at > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/ALV3QLKTB7RWCCR5W4HNDA4ZDG5ARRDC/ > > To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-le...@lists.wikimedia.org > > > ___ > Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > Public archives at > https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/DQ5ZMSTQNSOYIPRCQBYEN2NFPDFIXG35/ > To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-le...@lists.wikimedia.org ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/BWOGXLLUU6C5Q46YIDCZKW6VG655PZIQ/ To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-le...@lists.wikimedia.org
[Wikimedia-l] Re: RfC: Stop accepting cryptocurrency donations
Hmm, I'd be interested to hear a nuanced opinion from [[User:Gmaxwell]], if still active. sincerely, Kim On Tue, Jan 11, 2022 at 08:47:38AM +0100, Vi to wrote: > Long overdue! > > Vito > > Il giorno mar 11 gen 2022 alle ore 04:25 GorillaWarfare < > gorillawarfarewikipe...@gmail.com> ha scritto: > > > Hello all, > > > > I have created an RfC at Meta to discuss no longer accepting > > cryptocurrency donations. You can read the proposal, discuss, and vote at > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Stop_accepting_cryptocurrency_donations > > . > > > > Sincerely, > > Molly White (User:GorillaWarfare) > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:GorillaWarfare > > she/her > > ___ > > Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines > > at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > Public archives at > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/XRXIWLO7776X2BC2AHWEMF4XJCL5ROFF/ > > To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-le...@lists.wikimedia.org > ___ > Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > Public archives at > https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/7UZBDERYNFZOUG6T7VJYCYAGKHVDZPIN/ > To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-le...@lists.wikimedia.org ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/KMXPET2LEMY2J3IHYIDP2POVNFN2RLGZ/ To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-le...@lists.wikimedia.org
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Free Basics
Hi Milos, Happy new year to you! I thought your mail to the list was very thoughtful. I've replied inline below. On Fri, Jan 01, 2016 at 06:50:16AM +0100, Milos Rancic wrote: > I don't think the pure form of net-neutrality is sustainable. Many > businesses already have deals with other businesses to provide > something for free or "for free" or for reduced price via their > infrastructure. Hmm, this example has little to do with net neutrality as I understand it though. Net neutrality means that you pay your ISP to allow you to send and receive packets to/from anyone without discrimination to source or destination. (In other words you're paying for actual internet access without let or hindrance). Previously this is how the market worked. Without going into details here, many sources tell us that the market is now threatening to shift towards a winner-takes-all walled garden model. (if not already there) It's going to be a challenge to keep open source and open content operating and relevant in such an increasingly hostile environment this coming decade. > Neither I think the initiative will really create a permanent > underclass. People in underdeveloped regions will eventually become > richer and they won't need this kind of service. We can ask them whether they want to continue having such a service at any time. Or we can set some participation threshold above which we would accept a petition to stop. (It is always wise to have pre-prepared go/no-go safety checks at particular points in time) > * Finally, we belong to the movement which promotes net neutrality as > one of the core values. No matter how realistic it is, we should > support it. Wikipedia Zero is not net-neutral, but Wikimedia projects > are of such significance that it could be tolerated. Going further > into abandoning that principle would create definite divide between us > and the rest of our global super-movement. *Nod* We have to beware of fouling our own nest. Even though Wikipedia zero appears to help our own cause now, we need to be careful we don't hurt the people we depend on in turn. People such as the open source community and internet standards organisations might prove quite sensitive to changing Internet rules. We should put our ears to the ground and listen carefully to what representatives of these groups may be saying to us. sincerely, Kim Bruning ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Announcement: WMF to file suit against the NSA
I think that making us not-a-source-of-referred-traffic might be a good thing. (It disincentivises those who should be disincentivised, while not harming anyone else) sincerely, Kim Bruning On Tue, Mar 10, 2015 at 09:21:57AM -0700, Pete Forsyth wrote: There's a relevant research project outlined on Meta, about HTTPS: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Wikimedia_referrer_policy Here's the nutshell description: Since we started switching to HTTPS and an increasing portion of inbound traffic happens over SSL, Wikimedia sites stopped advertising themselves as sources of referred traffic to external sites. While this is a literal implication of HTTPS, it means that Wikimedia's impact on traffic directed to other sites is becoming largely invisible: *is Wikimedia turning into a large source of dark traffic?* I review a use case (traffic directed to CrossRef) and discuss how other top web properties deal with this issue by adopting a so-called Referrer Policy. I don't know anything about this beyond what I've read on Meta, but I think it offers some useful background for this discussion. Pete -- Pete Forsyth [[User:Peteforsyth]] on English Wikipedia, Wikisource, Commons, etc. On Tue, Mar 10, 2015 at 7:58 AM, Andrew Lih andrew@gmail.com wrote: Probably a good time for everyone to know about EFF's HTTPS Everywhere: HTTPS Everywhere is a Firefox, Chrome, and Opera extension that encrypts your communications with many major websites, making your browsing more secure. Encrypt the web: Install HTTPS Everywhere today. https://www.eff.org/https-everywhere On Tue, Mar 10, 2015 at 10:02 AM, Johan J??nsson brevlis...@gmail.com wrote: 2015-03-10 13:26 GMT+01:00 Comet styles cometsty...@gmail.com: for an organization taking on the NSA for spying..why are we using https? doesn't that show that we are already scared of them and running with our tail between our legs? (For non-technical readers: the HTTP protocol is the normal way to send around information on the web. HTTPS is the secure way of sending said information, adding encryption among other things, to avoid eavesdropping.) HTTP traffic can easily be tracked by people sharing the same network, by your Internet service provider and so on. If one cares about privacy, HTTPS is always important. It's worth noting that the NSA is not the only government agency in the world. I'd be even more worried about a number of countries where there would be little chance to fight the intruding party in the courtroom. Side note: you could probably track most HTTPS traffic to Wikipedia as well, even if you're not the NSA. Normally you would see that the user has accessed Wikipedia, but not which article. A way around that would be to let a spider (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_crawler) track the byte size of Wikipedia articles, which should be individual enough as soon as images are involved and compare it to the size of the page the user just accessed. If two articles happen to be of exactly the same size, compare with incoming and outgoing wiki links and see if the user accessed any page linking to or linked from one the articles to determine which one. But it would at least take some sort of effort, and wouldn't be perfect. //Johan J??nsson -- ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe -- [Non-pgp mail clients may show pgp-signature as attachment] gpg (www.gnupg.org) Fingerprint for key FEF9DD72 5ED6 E215 73EE AD84 E03A 01C5 94AC 7B0E FEF9 DD72 ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] WaPo Wikipedia's 'complicated; relationship with net neutrality
Found another article calling out Wikipedia. Are there also articles praising us? :-) https://medium.com/backchannel/less-than-zero-199bcb05a868 I do think that wikipedia zero is useful in the short term. I'm a bit worried about the long term though. Question: How do you predict wikipedia zero's effect on the internet in the long term? There are clearly going to be both positive and negative effects. Denying either is silly. What can we do to strengthen the positive effects, and how do we mitigate the negative? At what thresholds would wikipedia zero be stopped in some country and at what thresholds promoted? Are there documents/analysis online? sincerely, Kim On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 10:07:02PM +0100, Kim Bruning wrote: Washington post article http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2014/11/25/wikipedias-complicated-relationship-with-net-neutrality/ sincerely, Kim ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe -- [Non-pgp mail clients may show pgp-signature as attachment] gpg (www.gnupg.org) Fingerprint for key FEF9DD72 5ED6 E215 73EE AD84 E03A 01C5 94AC 7B0E FEF9 DD72 ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
[Wikimedia-l] Bharti Airtel to charge for using VOIP services Re: WaPo Wikipedia's 'complicated; relationship with net neutrality
Net Neutrality issues cropping up in india now, VOIP providers are first to be targeted.. http://in.reuters.com/article/2014/12/24/bharti-airtel-rates-idINKBN0K20SU20141224 If they can charge for VOIP or for other things, it means there is also nothing stopping providers in India from charging for wikipedia either. The reason they haven't done it yet, is just because they haven't thought of it yet. Due to our current activities in India, we may be in a bit of a tricky situation trying to prevent afforementioned scenario. We'll have to see how this progresses in practice. sincerely, Kim On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 10:07:02PM +0100, Kim Bruning wrote: Washington post article http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2014/11/25/wikipedias-complicated-relationship-with-net-neutrality/ sincerely, Kim ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fwd: Google Groups: You've been added to Gender Gap
On Sat, Dec 06, 2014 at 01:22:00AM +0800, Russavia wrote: Hi all If you receive an email purporting to be from myself and it's not from this email addy (and with an IINET IP), you can be assured it is not myself. Glad to hear it wasn't you! If I wanted to troll you all, you all know that I have more elaborate ways of doing this if I really wanted to do that. :) Yes, indeed you do. :-P sincerely Kim ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why is bank transfer no longer possible?
That's very interesting. However, as stated, in .nl (and SEPA) one pays people using IBAN accounts. One not-pays people using not-IBAN. iDeal is a handy dandy web interface to do (essentially) IBAN transfers. Them's the options; whether I personally like them or not.[*] c'est tout! Incidentally, for a SEPA area bank transfer, at a typical .nl bank, you fill in the person's name, their IBAN Account Number [**], and the amount; then click send. [***]. [] Alternately, iDeal fills this out for you, and you just click Approve. [] Re:Fraud: one bank I work for has the policy to hunt down, find, and prosecute every single fraud at all costs, and to the fullest extent possible under law. They do so as a matter of honour. Suffice to say this does tend to reduce the incidence of fraud in the country O:-) sincerely, Kim Bruning [*] Actually I kinda like these options; but I do live just ~2 hours from Brussels, so things tend to work well for me. YMMV for people who live in some island kingdom or what have you O:-) [**] International Bank Account Number account number; brought to you by the department of redundancy department. [***] For WMF I'd love it if they also ticked repeat monthly ;-) [] Not counting security procedures. :-P On Mon, Dec 01, 2014 at 12:31:23AM -0500, Risker wrote: Ummm. We have all kinds of ways for people to donate, and the process for transferring is pretty clear. Having been in a situation where I had to make bank transfers, I felt honestly like I was handing over the keys to the kingdom just for the right to pay someone money: far more personal information was required than is needed for any other means of payment that I've ever used. Banks in Canada regularly call their customers for transactions under $5 because fraud is so common - and that is with chip cards and PINs. Risker On 1 December 2014 at 00:08, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com wrote: Hoi, IMHO we need to advertise how people can transfer money to us. It requires an account number. Now if the USA is not able to accommodate this, FINE, let us do it in Europe at least.. WHAT AM I MISSING HERE ? Thanks, GerardM On 1 December 2014 at 03:38, Michael Snow wikipe...@frontier.com wrote: On 11/30/2014 1:14 PM, Gerard Meijssen wrote: Hoi, An IBAN number is NOT a credit card ... You need a ping number in combination with some smart card functionality in order to make it work.. The combination generates a number that is always different.. You seem to have misunderstood the scenario I laid out. I'm not talking about people using the IBAN to steal money out of a Wikimedia account, I depend on the bank to have security robust enough to prevent that. The scenario I'm discussing involves people using the IBAN to fraudulently pay money to Wikimedia from someone else's account, such as a credit card. That account does not necessarily have an IBAN or chip-and-pin security, and at any rate whatever security it has was already breached. The payment would just be a method for the fraudsters to verify the success of the breach. The result would be added costs to Wikimedia and to the financial institutions involved, in order to identify and reverse the fraudulent transactions. To respond to some of the other questions raised about my scenario: This was a risk scenario I presented to answer the question, How can posting a bank account number lead to fraud? It may or may not have been a factor in the decision to not publicly post the IBAN, I don't know. I'm also not suggesting that this scenario is unique to IBAN, it could affect any type of account number that accepts payments (for example, accounts you might have for various utility services, such as water, electricity, telephone, or internet). It's also possible thru PayPal, of course, and that's the reason for having a $1 minimum donation requirement, among other protections. I don't know if there are difficulties with establishing comparable security around the IBAN, or if it's more a matter of a cost-benefit analysis indicating that it's worth the resources to deal with this for donations via Wikimedia's online payment form, but not for donations directly to Wikimedia's bank account. Also, I'm no expert on EU regulations, but I do observe that according to the European Payments Council, it seems payees receiving SEPA credit transfers are advised to communicate the IBAN only where necessary: http://www.europeanpaymentscouncil.eu/index.cfm/sepa-credit- transfer/iban-and-bic/ (and likewise for payers making direct debit payments). It may simply be that the fundraising team has been advised that this is more consistent with providing the IBAN upon request, rather than posting it on the website. Not to disparage what may be common practice at other
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Issue on Dutch Wikipedia in relation to BLP violating images
Hmmm, Is that the fourth or the fifth wiki you are now indeffed from ? ;-) (I was looking up your illustrious history while chatting with you, and I admit I lost count somewhere along the way :-P [*]) Checking up on the nl.wikipedia discussions you had, I do agree that the environment turned toxic pretty quickly ... once you started throwing around insults like confetti. ;-) You were trying to get indeffed on purpose, right!? Only sane explanation. Wikis are like pokemon, gotta get indeffed from them all! sincerely, Kim Bruning [*] NSFL WARNING: do not look up why Russavia was decratted on Commons: NSFL WARNING [**] [**] I'm not entirely sure why they were *merely* decratted. This might be a fatal flaw in commons. On Sat, Nov 29, 2014 at 05:23:30AM +0800, Russavia wrote: Michel, I agree the atmosphere there is extremely toxic. For the record, I have now been indefinitely blocked on Dutch Wikipedia for raising serious concerns on Commons about one of their clique. Concerns which involved incontrovertible evidence that they have been accessing materials on Commons which was deleted due to privacy concerns and then passed around to others who wouldn't otherwise have that access. The unfunny part about it all, is that this only came to light after I publicly told MoiraMoira that given it was me who deleted privacy related images on Commons as they related to her, she should have more understanding on issues when subjects of articles have complaints about images of themselves. It then lead to that evidence being provided to me within minutes. The person who provided me the evidence has also been indefinitely blocked on Dutch Wikipedia, ostensibly for providing me with the evidence which included the person's first name -- a first name that was well known to me by way of discussion many years ago when we introduced ourselves privately on IRC. So, I agree wholeheartedly about their abusive and toxic environment, and don't really take any notice to those on there who call me a troll, for it is those people on Dutch Wikipedia who are playing unacceptable games in outright violation of the WMF Board resolution. They think they are punishing me, they are not; they are punishing the subject of the article. Regards, Russavia On Sat, Nov 29, 2014 at 4:46 AM, Michel Vuijlsteke wikipe...@zog.org wrote: Quick and easy: don't bother with the Dutch Wikipedia. It is one of the more toxic environments on the internet. :) ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe -- [Non-pgp mail clients may show pgp-signature as attachment] gpg (www.gnupg.org) Fingerprint for key FEF9DD72 5ED6 E215 73EE AD84 E03A 01C5 94AC 7B0E FEF9 DD72 ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why is bank transfer no longer possible?
Just following up, Has WMNL now received the sought information? sincerely, Kim Bruning On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 08:42:01AM +0100, Lodewijk wrote: It seems everyone agrees it is an important method (although I'm not 100% sure that the US based people running the fundraiser fully comprehend - I am assuming this is the case), but there seems to be some reason why the WMF chooses to not make this option easily available. A reason they choose not to disclose, but to be fuzzy about. I'm very sorry about this, and as Liam says, this fits in a trend with the Russian people no longer being allowed to donate. Maybe the two are connected, but this is all speculation. I'm sorry to see these steps back from the more open attitude there was a few years back. It feels very much that we are, as a community, being fed canned press answers. But then, maybe there's a real need for that and there's a huge legal threat to making it easy to donate through bank transfer that cannot be disclosed... Best, Lodewijk On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 1:34 AM, Kim Bruning k...@bruning.xs4all.nl wrote: To amplify: Paying (business) taxes in The Netherlands now pretty much requires electronic payment to an IBAN Account; a.k.a. it is (now) the standard, default, baseline way to make payments at all. After registering a business, the very next action is to open an (IBAN) account. All extant dutch accounts that predate IBAN have been converted to IBAN. All administration systems (must(!)) support IBAN. If you want to do business in the Netherlands, you need to support IBAN. Note that many (most?) dutch citizens do not have credit cards or paypal accounts. Further, IBAN is standardized throughout the euro-zone. iDEAL is nice to have and important. IBAN is a minimal baseline requirement. sincerely, Kim On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 10:42:31PM +0100, Walter Vermeir wrote: Op 17-11-14 om 20:28 schreef Lodewijk: you back to the credit card page) or even via regular bank transfer (using an IBAN) in the Netherlands. The donation page Historically the structure of bank account numbers are very different from country to country. And making transfers from one bank account to an other bank account, especially internationally, are/where complex and expensive. There is still a lot of room of improvement but nevertheless it has never been so easy and cheap to do international transfers as now. The IBAN system - International Bank Account Number - is active in a fair chunk of the globe. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Bank_Account_Number#Adoption Inside the EURO-zone , 19 countries, ?? 337 million Europeans , people can make a bank transfer to an EURO-zone IBAN bank account without additional expenses. Many more outside the EURO-zone can easy make international payments to an IBAN bank account. That is not free ... but paypal is certainly not free also. The costs are just deducted from your donation. The WMF has always has been a huge fan of payment by credit cards. Understandable, the WMF is founded in the country of the Credit card. But that can make you blind to the fact that other people are used to total other payment systems. A couple of years ago I discovered that there where still people using cheques in France. That came as a total surprise to me. I remember my dad using cheques 30 years ago. I never came in to contact with a cheque since then. To my knowledge cheques where long gone. History. Extinct. But ... when you have the financial business concept of the WMF - when you need money beg for it - the donation channel should be tailer made for the specific common way of payment used by the person who is so good to be willing to make an donation. Walter ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe -- [Non-pgp mail clients may show pgp-signature as attachment] gpg (www.gnupg.org
[Wikimedia-l] WaPo Wikipedia's 'complicated; relationship with net neutrality
Washington post article http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2014/11/25/wikipedias-complicated-relationship-with-net-neutrality/ sincerely, Kim ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why is bank transfer no longer possible?
To amplify: Paying (business) taxes in The Netherlands now pretty much requires electronic payment to an IBAN Account; a.k.a. it is (now) the standard, default, baseline way to make payments at all. After registering a business, the very next action is to open an (IBAN) account. All extant dutch accounts that predate IBAN have been converted to IBAN. All administration systems (must(!)) support IBAN. If you want to do business in the Netherlands, you need to support IBAN. Note that many (most?) dutch citizens do not have credit cards or paypal accounts. Further, IBAN is standardized throughout the euro-zone. iDEAL is nice to have and important. IBAN is a minimal baseline requirement. sincerely, Kim On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 10:42:31PM +0100, Walter Vermeir wrote: Op 17-11-14 om 20:28 schreef Lodewijk: you back to the credit card page) or even via regular bank transfer (using an IBAN) in the Netherlands. The donation page Historically the structure of bank account numbers are very different from country to country. And making transfers from one bank account to an other bank account, especially internationally, are/where complex and expensive. There is still a lot of room of improvement but nevertheless it has never been so easy and cheap to do international transfers as now. The IBAN system - International Bank Account Number - is active in a fair chunk of the globe. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Bank_Account_Number#Adoption Inside the EURO-zone , 19 countries, ?? 337 million Europeans , people can make a bank transfer to an EURO-zone IBAN bank account without additional expenses. Many more outside the EURO-zone can easy make international payments to an IBAN bank account. That is not free ... but paypal is certainly not free also. The costs are just deducted from your donation. The WMF has always has been a huge fan of payment by credit cards. Understandable, the WMF is founded in the country of the Credit card. But that can make you blind to the fact that other people are used to total other payment systems. A couple of years ago I discovered that there where still people using cheques in France. That came as a total surprise to me. I remember my dad using cheques 30 years ago. I never came in to contact with a cheque since then. To my knowledge cheques where long gone. History. Extinct. But ... when you have the financial business concept of the WMF - when you need money beg for it - the donation channel should be tailer made for the specific common way of payment used by the person who is so good to be willing to make an donation. Walter ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
[Wikimedia-l] The Rise and Decline of an Open Collaboration Community: How Wikipedia's reaction to sudden popularity is causing its decline
I found this document/research paper on wikipedia user retention; FWIW http://www-users.cs.umn.edu/~halfak/publications/The_Rise_and_Decline/ sincerely, Kim Bruning ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] The Rise and Decline of an Open Collaboration Community: How Wikipedia's reaction to sudden popularity is causing its decline
On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 09:04:11PM +0100, Federico Leva (Nemo) wrote: Kim Bruning, 12/11/2014 19:40: I found this document/research paper on wikipedia user retention; FWIW http://www-users.cs.umn.edu/~halfak/publications/The_Rise_and_Decline/ https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:The_Rise_and_Decline http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.org.wikimedia.foundation/63549/focus=63576 Oohhh, Interesting! :-) sincerely, Kim ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
[Wikimedia-l] Wikipedia needs an IDE, not a WYSIWYG editor
I spotted this article linked from news.ycombinator.com, arguing -well- what it says on the tin. ;-) Apologies if someone else already posted a link. https://medium.com/@MrJamesFisher/wikipedia-needs-an-ide-not-a-wysiwyg-editor-7acd85b582c8 I'm not sure scratches head. Well, if we allow lua in templates, I suppose things actually are already pretty Interesting. sincerely, Kim Bruning ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Visually impaired
Did they have issues with eg. templates at top of page? On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 10:13:08AM -0600, Victor Grigas wrote: I interviewed 2 gentlemen who are both blind who use a program called JAWS on desktop machines that reads the Wikipedia page to them, allowing them to edit. On Jan 15, 2014, at 2:26 AM, rupert THURNER rupert.thur...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, would anybody of you have some starting points concerning wikipedia for visually impaired persons, both computer and mobile devices? Rupert ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe -- [Non-pgp mail clients may show pgp-signature as attachment] gpg (www.gnupg.org) Fingerprint for key FEF9DD72 5ED6 E215 73EE AD84 E03A 01C5 94AC 7B0E FEF9 DD72 ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Goodbye as the German president of the Dutch chapter
Hope to see you again soon in whatever your next capacity may be! sincerely, Kim Bruning On Sun, Mar 30, 2014 at 07:59:45PM +0200, Ziko van Dijk wrote: Dear colleagues, collaborators and friends of free knowledge, After three eventful years I left the board of Wikimedia Nederland; yesterday was the General Assembly in Utrecht. This means a 'goodbye'. In this time, I had the privilege and pleasure to work with many great people in many different organisations. We saw a lot of small steps and some bigger ones directed to our common goal, the support of free knowledge. Certainly, not everything we as a movement or parts of the movement was achieved, though. Between many WMNL members and me, there were two grades of separation: coming from the humanities, my geekiness differs a little from the average Wikipedianess; having the German Wikipedia as my home wiki, I was never a very active or 'true' part of the Dutch editing community. And when I quoted in my speeches from medieval quests or Prussian literary realism, I received therefore some strange looks from some members. But I remain firmly convinced that good governance and respect have no nationality. Indeed, stroopwafels do have, and so I adopted the Dutch custom to bring them with me to Wikimedian meetings abroad. Wikimedia Nederland has experienced and overcome a difficult period of transition. Office space and employees, more members including more members without Wikipedia background, more activities, more money, more responsibility; more need for an association to mature and focus on what is necessary (and not always easy, cool or fun). We achieved that as a collective, slower than previously expected, but with the appropriate pride and good feelings about the future. Goodbye - and Hello: I am looking forward to see many of you again at whatever wiki, chat or real life meeting. Kind regards Ziko https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Nederland Dr. Ziko van Dijk Vereniging Wikimedia Nederland Postbus 167 3500 AD Utrecht http://wikimedia.nl ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe -- [Non-pgp mail clients may show pgp-signature as attachment] gpg (www.gnupg.org) Fingerprint for key FEF9DD72 5ED6 E215 73EE AD84 E03A 01C5 94AC 7B0E FEF9 DD72 ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Editor retention (was Re: Big data benefits and limitations (relevance: WMF editor engagement, fundraising, and HR practices))
On Mon, Jan 14, 2013 at 09:53:46AM +, Richard Farmbrough wrote: number of years ago the oligarchy destroyed hope (Esperanza) - now the Well, Esperanza ended up ossified faster than the rest of wikipedia, so it had to be taken down. I'm worried about people saying the same thing won't happen to us or Esperanza is behind us now. This is blatantly not true. Just look at the state of en.wikipedia! We're going to have to do a lot of work to get things koving again :-/ sincerely, Kim Bruning ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Editor retention (was Re: Big data benefits and limitations (relevance: WMF editor engagement, fundraising, and HR practices))
On Wed, Jan 09, 2013 at 07:45:41AM +, David Gerard wrote: Right. So anyone in this thread going into detail about en:wp policies is actually not addressing this, and the problem is on a higher level? :-/ Back to the drawing board. That actually makes the problem a lot harder! (does mean we know where to start looking though) sincerely, Kim Bruning ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Editor retention (was Re: Big data benefits and limitations (relevance: WMF editor engagement, fundraising, and HR practices))
On Tue, Jan 08, 2013 at 04:50:39PM -0800, George Herbert wrote: The correct solution to newbies being chased off is not ban them upfront. The correct solution is to deal with those chasing off the newbies ;-) There is a tremendous difference between a clickthrough warning that one might be wading into a dangerous topic, and a ban of a type or class of users from articles or topic areas. Ah, I see what you're getting at now! As a temp measure, it's better than nothing, I suppose, though the underlying problem should also be dealt with, possibly by use of DRN or similar. sincerely, Kim Bruning ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Editor retention (was Re: Big data benefits and limitations (relevance: WMF editor engagement, fundraising, and HR practices))
On Fri, Jan 04, 2013 at 12:48:46AM -0500, Risker wrote: all. New editors don't know what BRD means (Bold, Revert, Discuss). some oldereditors typically don't either. They often read it to mean the opposite of what it actually means. WP Consensus works by switching between 2 different feedback cycles. (For more on similar feedback cycles, see PDCA (corporate) or OODA (military) ) The first is simple Bold edit-watch-noagree?-edit[[Wikipedia:Consensus]] The second is Bold-Revert-Discuss-Bold mentioned at [[WP:BRD]], but that page does not cover this fully. The mistake a lot of editors make is that they think it's linear (bold--revert-discuss_forever) In reality, the objective is to get back to bold editing, because you're on a wiki, and that's what wikis are for. If you disagree that discussions are getting stuck, why can't we outright edit policies anymore when they no longer fit? Why is there a report that says wikipedia's structure is ossified? If you disagrees that the primary objective is and should be to get back to editing (and thus remain flexible and responsive at all times): How do you propose that wikipedia adapt to the changing world around it, if many policies and other pages are now effectively locked down? I've worked at some very old companies. The reason they're still around is because they accept input from the outside world, listen to people, and they stay flexible by having processes in place to change the processes, as needed. Finally, I don't think the WP structure is nescessarily bad. It's just that people currently aren't learning how to use it like they did before. Look at procedures used for elections in Iraqs system: first they taught everyone how democracy worked, *then* they held an election. If they'd just held elections without ever teaching anyone what that means, they'd have gotten a(n even bigger) mess. :-P sincerely, Kim Bruning ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Editor retention (was Re: Big data benefits and limitations (relevance: WMF editor engagement, fundraising, and HR practices))
On Fri, Jan 04, 2013 at 03:51:42PM -0800, George Herbert wrote: Along the lines of noneuclidian geometry... What if we experiment (at least conceptually) with inverting that instruction? Encourage people to write on subjects they know... Normal people won't be so much of an expert that using their own professional or academic work as a reference is even applicable. Actual experts, we can include a Please cite your sources, rather than your own work, thanks! and leave it at that. Actual experts who fail to heed that are a problem, but a much smaller and easier to communicate with and explain problem than the no-newbies one. You know, this is starting to sound like we're the 2001 wikipedia to provide input to the nascent Nupedia? ;-) My proposal would be to replace AFC with an unstable branch wikipedia. (And cherry-pick from there). This proposal has the upside that it uses proven technology and processes ;-) sincerely, Kim bruning ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Editor retention (was Re: Big data benefits and limitations (relevance: WMF editor engagement, fundraising, and HR practices))
On Fri, Jan 04, 2013 at 04:48:57PM -0800, George Herbert wrote: I almost wonder if having a warning flag for highly sensitive or contentious article, encouraging editors without some threshold of edits (500? ... some number) to ask about contributions on the article talk page first, rather than going directly to editing the actual article... Note: Adds a threshold, thus negatively influences editor retention. sincerely, Kim Bruning scratches head Maybe we need some sort of course/book wiki-process design for dummies. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Editor retention (was Re: Big data benefits and limitations (relevance: WMF editor engagement, fundraising, and HR practices))
With respect to welcoming and assisting new users on the English Wikipedia where there is a bewildering volume of varied activity by new and experienced users it might be helpful if we had a recent changes options that showed only edit by new editors with less than say 100 edits that could be monitored. Newbie helpers could then welcome, comment, compliment, or otherwise assist the new user. Obviously access to such a recent changes option by those looking for trouble could also be used in ways that would discourage the new user. Perhaps access could be limited to only flagged newbie helpers. Technically, you could get very close by just creating a separate wiki for new users and new articles. (replacing the current AFC process). Simplest thing that could possibly work. + we have a precedent (nupedia-wikipedia) sincerely, Kim Bruning ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Editor retention (was Re: Big data benefits and limitations (relevance: WMF editor engagement, fundraising, and HR practices))
On Tue, Jan 08, 2013 at 04:13:20PM -0800, George Herbert wrote: Note: Adds a threshold, thus negatively influences editor retention. But we need to understand what's wrong with the current way of doing things as part of the discussion. Consider a famous example in Japan: Several Japanese onsens had problems with Russian Sailors, so in the end they instituded a no foreigners allowed policy. This solved the probnlem nicely. I've also heard a story about a lan party in texas, where they had had repeated issues with people hurling slurs at girl gamers etc. so in the end they simply banned all female participants. The correct solution to newbies being chased off is not ban them upfront. The correct solution is to deal with those chasing off the newbies ;-) sincerely, Kim ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Editor retention (was Re: Big data benefits and limitations (relevance: WMF editor engagement, fundraising, and HR practices))
On Fri, Jan 04, 2013 at 01:10:33PM +, David Gerard wrote: On 4 January 2013 13:03, Fred Bauder fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote: With respect to welcoming and assisting new users on the English Wikipedia where there is a bewildering volume of varied activity by new and experienced users it might be helpful if we had a recent changes options that showed only edit by new editors with less than say 100 edits that could be monitored. Newbie helpers could then welcome, comment, compliment, or otherwise assist the new user. Obviously access to such a recent changes option by those looking for trouble could also be used in ways that would discourage the new user. Perhaps access could be limited to only flagged newbie helpers. How would we stop Twinkle/Huggle users from using such a feed as a shooting gallery? Conspire with the Twinkle/Huggle writers to implement [[poka-yoke]] (mistake-proofed) UI and workflow changes, so that that course of action becomes difficult? sincerely, Kim Bruning ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
[Wikimedia-l] Wikipedia collaterally damaged by google's autocomplete filter
Google's autocomplete filter now censors certain search terms. While this may or may not be successful at stopping piracy, it certainly manages to filter wikipedia pages on these topics. See here, and note the top hit for their example: http://torrentfreak.com/why-is-megaupload-still-censored-by-googles-piracy-filter-121028/ I've also tested a few of the knwn terms myself. sincerely, Kim Bruning ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikivoyage project launch/migration update
On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 11:47:42AM -0700, Erik Moeller wrote: Hi folks, a quick update on the launch of a travel project under the WMF umbrella, and the import of the existing Wikivoyage site. 3 3 3 sincerely, Kim Bruning ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
[Wikimedia-l] Clean IT Project
Clean IT project http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120921/03581820457/eu-officials-propose-internet-cops-patrol-no-anonymity-no-obscure-languages-because-terrorism.shtml As usual for Scaremongering Online Headlines, this is claiming that they'd propose banning sites in entire languages. How realistic is this? If at all realistic, would this cause trouble for some of our (less common language) projects? sincerely, Kim Bruning ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] CNET News: Corruption in Wikiland? Paid PR scandal erupts at Wikipedia
On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 05:19:19PM -0700, George Herbert wrote: I'm curious as to the internal view of the details, but... this is Violet Blue blogging about us. Violet Blue is a known quantity to you? sincerely, Kim Bruning ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Travel Guide: Board statement
That's one step better than I was hoping for, If all y'all are already in close contact with Erik, then I'm no longer needed in this phase. :-) (unless I can help with setup, or getting more data, or etc.) Good luck, and have fun! :-) sincerely, Kim Bruning PS. do post regular updates on status. I'd love to know how things go from here! :-) On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 10:06:32PM +0200, Stefan Fussan wrote: We are about to migrate the WT data on WV as a first step ( http://www.wikivoyage.org/general/Migration_FAQ ). I am in touch with Erik as well. Till now i have got no time table and any further information from the WMF. But I am sure, during the next two weeks we will know more details about the procedure. Stefan aka Fussi Am 17.09.2012 19:31, schrieb Samuel Klein: The Wikivoyage migration plans should be able to proceed. I haven't seen a specific plan for how that will work; it is still being discussed on Meta and on Wikivoyage. Sam. On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 1:46 PM, Kim Bruning k...@bruning.xs4all.nl wrote: On Thu, Sep 06, 2012 at 03:21:55PM +0200, Alice Wiegand wrote: Hi all, on behalf of the Board of Trustees I'm glad to announce the following statement about the travel guide RfC http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Travel_Guide : What are the next steps? Will the foundation first wait for all lawsuits to resolve, or will they start with working on providing the servers? What's the current time-frame? sincerely, Kim Bruning ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l -- [Non-pgp mail clients may show pgp-signature as attachment] gpg (www.gnupg.org) Fingerprint for key FEF9DD72 5ED6 E215 73EE AD84 E03A 01C5 94AC 7B0E FEF9 DD72 ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
[Wikimedia-l] CNET News: Corruption in Wikiland? Paid PR scandal erupts at Wikipedia
Spotted this in my news feed, http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-57514677-93/corruption-in-wikiland-paid-pr-scandal-erupts-at-wikipedia/ sincerely, Kim Bruning ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Travel Guide: Board statement
On Thu, Sep 06, 2012 at 03:21:55PM +0200, Alice Wiegand wrote: Hi all, on behalf of the Board of Trustees I'm glad to announce the following statement about the travel guide RfC http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Travel_Guide : What are the next steps? Will the foundation first wait for all lawsuits to resolve, or will they start with working on providing the servers? What's the current time-frame? sincerely, Kim Bruning ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikimedia Announcements] Wikimedia Foundation Seeks Declaratory Relief in response to Legal Threats from Internet Brands
On Fri, Sep 07, 2012 at 01:26:06PM +0100, David Gerard wrote: My blog post, in which I emphasise that this is fundamentally an attack on CC by-sa and the freedom of free content: Your blog post somehow made its way to slashdot. http://yro.slashdot.org/story/12/09/07/1853238/internet-brands-sues-people-for-forking-under-cc-by-sa (Haven't spotted at HN or Reddit yet.) sincerely, Kim Bruning ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikimedia Announcements] Wikimedia Foundation Seeks Declaratory Relief in response to Legal Threats from Internet Brands
On Thu, Sep 06, 2012 at 05:09:29AM +, Max Harmony wrote: Would it be inappropriate for community members to express their displeasure with the actions of Internet Brands, perhaps by mass or organised boycott? The latter is pretty much already happening by default. sincerely, Kim Bruning ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
[Wikimedia-l] Even Google gets it wrong (filtering Bisexual from instant results and autocomplete)
Google accidentally blocks Bisexual from Instant Search and Autocomplete. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfbO4iFaJOw As you say, we're strong LGBT supporters. Sometimes perfectly good search terms can trip up our algorithms that decide whether to show instant results. This can happen when our automatic filters detect a strong correlation on the (unfiltered) Internet between those terms and pornography. The effect varies from term to term, and keep in mind we handle billions of queries each day, 16% of which are new to us each day, across 146 languages. But we appreciate your feedback -- it's this kind of case that motivates us to keep working on our algorithms so we can get people the information they need as quickly as possible.- Google Spokesperson, July 2nd 2012 sincerely, Kim Bruning ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
[Wikimedia-l] Side discussion: Volunteer time is precious Re: Articles for Creation broken
On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 11:48:29AM +0100, Andreas Kolbe wrote: On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 11:07 AM, Katie Chan k...@ktchan.info wrote: On 19/08/2012 11:04, Andreas Kolbe wrote: I currently see 370 submissions pending. Does this mean that someone has processed 700 articles since the beginning of this thread, or am I looking at the wrong thing? More than one someone, but you're looking at the right thing. Sounds like the someones have done some hard volunteer work there ... and are probably due some thanks. Good plan. At the same time, here's a not-so common question: Is their level of effort sustainable? Just because we get it for free, doesn't mean volunteer time isn't precious. It'd be interesting to go through all our processes and see where we can make them more efficient, thus freeing up those same volunteer for other things. (in theory;-) Yes I know that volunteer time isn't 100% fungible, but saving volunteers time certainly won't hurt editor retention or process throughput. ;-) sincerely, Kim Bruning ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] A task list for a beginning project
On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 09:35:49AM +0300, Amir E. Aharoni wrote: Hello, There are many projects in small languages. People want to develop them, but are often not sure what should they do. Even something basic like improve existing pages and write new ones may not be obvious. Is there something like a task list for new projects? Something like: Chenneling Siebrand and Gerard: Go to translatewiki.net and translate the UI for your language? (if not already done) sincerely, Kim Bruning ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Apparently, Wikipedia is ugly
On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 09:04:46PM +0100, Thomas Morton wrote: This all ties back to my view that we don't think of the average reader enough :) What do we want the average reader to do? Who do we want them to be. Do we want them to be an encyclopedia reader, a wiki editor, or ... something in between? A novel thought that! I think that every person who comes to take something away, also has something to bring back in. Actually, that's pretty much certain, sooner or later. An encyclopedia is a starting point for research. Once you're even just halfway researching your topic, you probably know more than the encyclopedia does. This is how I sometimes contributed to wikipedia early on. [1] Rather than giving up and calling people the average reader, can we think about how we can get them to give something back? Sure, we probably can't get 100% of readers to give something back, but we can definitely do better than the meager fraction-of-1% we have now. Our policies/procedures/work-patterns have swung a little too far encyclopedia-ward. We need to get the pendulum swinging back wiki-ward for a while. sincerely, Kim Bruning [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Lost_functionalities#Using_wikipedia_as_an_.28anonymous.29_research_tool ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Apparently, Wikipedia is ugly
On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 09:48:50PM +0200, Svip wrote: Oh and here is a fun fact I have discovered over the years; reading large texts of a serif typeface is a lot easier than a sans-serif typeface. See, I'm *not* crazy to think that! phew That's why I still use the classic skin, it's the only skin that has serif fonts for body text. :-/ sincerely, Kim Bruning ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] TVTropes deletes all pages with Rape in title under advertising pressure.
Better would be to keep those articles, and also (at some point) to preserve TVTropes. sincerely, Kim Bruning On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 06:17:57PM +, Mike Dupont wrote: well i decided to delete them, and other articles dealing with peoples personal lives. I dont want to deal with stuff like that, mike On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 8:29 PM, Mike Dupont jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com wrote: Well you think i should delete them from the speedydeletion wikia? http://speedydeletion.wikia.com/wiki/index.php?search=rapefulltext=Search mike On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 6:02 PM, Kim Bruning k...@bruning.xs4all.nl wrote: Wow, thank goodness we never had advertising. The TV-Tropes wiki has been forced to censor a number of pages due to advertiser pressure. ? ? ? ?http://www.themarysue.com/tv-tropes-rape-articles/ In the mean time, the discussed tropes *do* exist in our culture and in our movies. It somehow feels soviet. :-/ sincerely, ? ? ? ?Kim Bruning -- ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l -- James Michael DuPont Member of Free Libre Open Source Software Kosova http://flossk.org Contributor FOSM, the CC-BY-SA map of the world http://fosm.org Mozilla Rep https://reps.mozilla.org/u/h4ck3rm1k3 -- James Michael DuPont Member of Free Libre Open Source Software Kosova http://flossk.org Contributor FOSM, the CC-BY-SA map of the world http://fosm.org Mozilla Rep https://reps.mozilla.org/u/h4ck3rm1k3 ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l -- [Non-pgp mail clients may show pgp-signature as attachment] gpg (www.gnupg.org) Fingerprint for key FEF9DD72 5ED6 E215 73EE AD84 E03A 01C5 94AC 7B0E FEF9 DD72 ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] TVTropes deletes all pages with Rape in title under advertising pressure.
On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 08:41:04PM +0100, geni wrote: On 26 June 2012 19:02, Kim Bruning k...@bruning.xs4all.nl wrote: In the mean time, the discussed tropes *do* exist in our culture and in our movies. It somehow feels soviet. :-/ A significant chunk of them would probably fail [[WP:V]]. Actually for the most part I just feel sorry for the people who are meant to enforce the new rules. On the other hand I note that home made explosive tropes are not affected. TvTropes and en.wp have different foci, so that should not surprise anyone. (else there wouldn't need to be 2 different wikis) That said, a number of the expunged topics (eg. movies, books, etc) do appear to overlap with articles on en.wp, where they are discussed in our typical dry manner. (This from a small sample, and they're still working at it, so ymmv) sincerely, Kim Bruning ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] TVTropes deletes all pages with Rape in title under advertising pressure.
On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 09:07:02PM +0100, Andreas Kolbe wrote: I've always been against ads, but as far as I am concerned, the illusion of an NPOV project ended with the SOPA strike, and Jimbo's current exploits around O'Dwyer (who I agree should not be extradited, but doh, that is not the point ...) just underscore that. The SOPA strike was necessary for us to retain neutrality. (It's the old freedom to swing your fists where you wish, versus limiting the arc to avoid my nose discussion; aka BSD vs GPL; aka do what you want, vs do unto others; etc. (incidentally, is there a general term for this 100% freedom vs -except not allowed to take away freedom- rule?)) It might be useful to try to correct newspapers if they state we set aside our neutrality. It was precisely our neutrality that was at stake! Of course if Jimmy wants to do other political things, he should be a bit careful to either explain to everyone why it's necessary for the foundation and/or explain that he's doing it independently and his views do not nescessarily reflect the views of the board, etc etc. I hope he's doing that consistently. Are you saying that maybe he hasn't? Besides, the ones putting pressure on TV Tropes, and who made them take the pages down, are Google. That is the same Google who are a major financial contributor to Wikimedia. Hmmm. I think WMF talks with different departments at Google than TV Tropes does. It might be useful to enquire? sincerely, Kim Bruning ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
[Wikimedia-l] FSF Blocked by MS Net nanny software
The FSF is not very pleased about being classified as a gambling site. http://www.fsf.org/blogs/community/dear-microsoft-fsf.org-is-not-a-gambling-site sincerely, Kim Bruning -- ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
[Wikimedia-l] Copyright information not digitised?
According to: http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120330/12402418305/why-missing-20th-century-books-is-even-worse-than-it-seems.shtml a lot of books have an uncertain copyright status, because the Copyright Office records have not been digitized yet. Is this true? Would offering to help digitize these records fit in our mission (especially wrt WikiSource) ? sincerely, Kim Bruning ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikidata opinion piece in The Atlantic
On Tue, Apr 10, 2012 at 04:46:50PM -0700, En Pine wrote: Here's an opinion piece, The Problem with Wikidata, by Mark Graham, who is a Research Fellow at the Oxford Internet Institute, which appears on The Atlantic's website. I'm not personally supporting or opposing his views but I found this to be an interesting read. http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2012/04/the-problem-with-wikidata/255564/ From reading, it looks like the wikidata team has this at least partially covered. We're making plenty of positive progress, but we do have to keep our eyes open for (potential) pernicious potholes in the road. If someone shouts look out, we should definitely stop and look, just to be sure. ;-) sincerely, Kim Bruning ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Pro-active user privacy (Was: Update on IPv6)
On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 11:22:52AM -0700, James Forrester wrote: Can I suggest that we try to discuss this on-wiki (as it's more inclusive of the community)? - https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Unregistered_user or something linked from there would be the 'obvious' place to start. Wow, current state of affairs is (paraphrased) new users are not welcome? :-( That might explain some issues! sincerely, Kim Bruning ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Update on IPv6
On Fri, Jun 01, 2012 at 11:12:58PM +0200, Erik Moeller wrote: Hi all, We're planning to do limited production testing of IPv6 during the Berlin Hackathon 2012 (June 2-3). Provided that the number of issues we encounter are manageable, we may fully enable IPv6 on IPv6 day, and keep it enabled. What with XS4ALL (my ISP) now also offering IPv6 out-of-the-box, there's at least one extra IPv6 anon on en.wp. ;-) I noticed that my current IPv6 address appears to be assigned dynamically by XS4ALL. I can probably get static if I choose it. But the dynamic assignment option does alleviate some people's privacy concerns, right? sincerely, Kim Bruning ps. We all know that everyone needs to switch to IPv6 eventually. Don't be surprised when people in your neighborhood decide to do so, with or without additional warning. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] speedydeletion.wika.com lauched
In theory, yes. However, if you're fetching page dumps conforming to the schema at http://www.mediawiki.org/xml/export-0.6/ http://www.mediawiki.org/xml/export-0.6.xsd to some extent you've already got all the information anyway. It *almost* takes more work to filter out just the authors. :-P If you're getting page data in some different format, sure. :-) sincerely, Kim Bruning On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 12:47:31AM +0100, Thomas Morton wrote: This has been debated numerous times; to what extent does the attribution have to relate to the exact contribution of each author. A list of authors has been considered acceptable in the past (including on-wiki). Tom On 12 June 2012 23:48, Kim Bruning k...@bruning.xs4all.nl wrote: On Mon, Jun 11, 2012 at 05:44:40AM +, Mike Dupont wrote: Hi, Again the full history is available on archive.org and i think that no one is going to think that this data is from me, it is clearly marked as being from wikipedia. You are very concientious, and normally this would indeed be adequate (not perfect, but definitely adequate :) It is adequate because wikipedia itself retains full attribution information in page history. One can follow the chain from the copy back to the wikipedia original back to the page history and voila, more than you ever wanted to know. The problem with deleted/hidden articles on en.wp is that the history information is also deleted/hidden; and therefore the attribution chain is broken. Attribution information is important for legal and open content reasons of course. Is it possible to keep a copy of page history somewhere also? I know the mediawiki export/import functions support this, and work via GET request. see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Export eg: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Export/Train sincerely, Kim Bruning ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l -- [Non-pgp mail clients may show pgp-signature as attachment] gpg (www.gnupg.org) Fingerprint for key FEF9DD72 5ED6 E215 73EE AD84 E03A 01C5 94AC 7B0E FEF9 DD72 ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] speedydeletion.wika.com lauched
On Mon, Jun 11, 2012 at 05:44:40AM +, Mike Dupont wrote: Hi, Again the full history is available on archive.org and i think that no one is going to think that this data is from me, it is clearly marked as being from wikipedia. ps. It occurs to me that if the full history is available on archive.org, that linking to the relevant archive.org data might be adequate. sincerely, Kim Bruning ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
[Wikimedia-l] Myth Busted Re: TomTom does a Britannica
On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 08:08:21AM -0400, Anthony wrote: The difference is that Wikipedia is usable in the real world, whereas OSM, for the most part, is not. OSMAndroid is fully usable for satnav in the real world. It includes enough data on streets, buildings and POI's to find what you need. You can download maps so you don't need a network connection for maps; and recent upgrades also allow one to do routing on the local CPU, so you can use your android phone just like a tomtom, except with OSM map data ;-) When eg. playing tourist in Italy, this worked perfectly for me. I'm going to say that this myth is busted ;-) sincerely, Kim Bruning ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] TomTom does a Britannica
On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 09:29:19AM -0400, Anthony wrote: I just tried osmand. I can't even figure out how to put in an address. WFM (Works For Me)? Also routing is not mapping. It looks like the android coders could still improve their routing algorithms a bit. As long as you take that into account, it's quite usable. (I always Use Brain(tm) in combination satnav anyway, so I've hardly noticed, myself) Note that OSMAndroid supports multiple online routing providers as well as its own local-CPU algorithm. YMMV (literally! ;) sincerely, Kim Bruning ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fire Drill Re: Wikimedia sites not easy to archive (Was Re: Knol is closing tomorrow )
On Thu, May 17, 2012 at 07:43:09AM -0400, Anthony wrote: In fact, I think someone at WMF should contact Amazon and see if they'll let us conduct the experiment for free, in exchange for us creating the dump for them to host as a public data set (http://aws.amazon.com/publicdatasets/). That sounds like an excellent plan. At the same time, it might be useful to get Archive Team involved. * They have warm bodies. (always useful, one can never have enough volunteers ;) * They have experience with very large datasets * They'd be very happy to help (it's their mission) * Some of them may be able to provide Sufficient Storage(tm) and server capacity. Saves us the Amazon AWS bill. * We might set a precedent where others might provide their data to AT directly too. AT's mission dovetails nicely with ours. We provide the sum of all human knowledge to people. AT ensures that the sum of all human knowledge is not subtracted from. sincerely, Kim Bruning ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
