Re: [Wikimedia-l] Translatable modules

2020-09-22 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
Would it be considered for projects that are not the initial target to opt
in.. I expect that particular in the smaller projects this will be really
welcome and beneficial.
Thanks,
  GerardM

On Tue, 22 Sep 2020 at 16:39, Amir E. Aharoni 
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> *Crossposting to Wikimedia-L, Wikitech-L, MediaWiki-L, and
> Wikitech-Ambassadors. You can reply to the mailing list, but the ideal
> place for further discussion is the talk pages of the wiki pages to which I
> link below.*
>
> There's a new proposal to localize Lua modules in a more modern, safe, and
> convenient manner: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Translatable_modules .
>
> In the foreseeable future it will only affect multilingual sites, such as
> Wikidata, Commons, Meta, and mediawiki.org, but at a later time it may
> also
> be deployed on Wikipedias and other projects.
>
> It will be great if experienced module developers could take a look at the
> project page, https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Translatable_modules , and
> its
> subpages, especially https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Translatable
> modules/Proposed solutions . Your feedback will be very helpful in
> implementing this project in a way that really benefits all the editors.
>
> Thanks!
>
> --
> Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
> http://aharoni.wordpress.com
> ‪“We're living in pieces,
> I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
>
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 



Re: [Wikimedia-l] A Universal Code of Conduct draft for review

2020-09-09 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
I do not like the text. You first state a  problem that the policy is to
address. By flipping the order it becomes instantly more positive. The
objective is to instill the notion what normal behaviour is and that sadly
we have to insist on normal behaviour.
Thanks,
  GerardM

On Mon, 7 Sep 2020 at 22:18, Patrick Earley  wrote:

> Hello, everyone.
>
> We are excited to share a draft of the Universal Code of Conduct
> , which the
> Wikimedia Foundation Board of Trustees called for earlier this year
> <
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Board_noticeboard/May_2020_-_Board_of_Trustees_on_Healthy_Community_Culture,_Inclusivity,_and_Safe_Spaces
> >,
> for your review and feedback. The discussion will be open until October 6,
> 2020.
>
> The UCoC Drafting Committee
> <
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Universal_Code_of_Conduct/Drafting_committee
> >wants
> to learn which parts of the draft would present challenges for you or your
> work. What is missing from this draft? What do you like, and what could be
> improved?
>
>
> Many thanks to the Committee, and everyone who has helped with translations
> so far.
>
>
> Please join the conversation
> 
> and share this email with others who may be interested to join, too.
>
> To learn more about the UCoC project, see the Universal Code of Conduct
> page
> , and the FAQ
> , on Meta.
>
> [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Universal_Code_of_Conduct
>
> [2]
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Board_noticeboard/May_2020_-_Board_of_Trustees_on_Healthy_Community_Culture,_Inclusivity,_and_Safe_Spaces
>
> [3] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Universal_Code_of_Conduct/Draft_review
> [4] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Universal_Code_of_Conduct/FAQ
>
> --
> Patrick Earley
> Policy Manager, Trust and Safety
> Wikimedia Foundation
> pear...@wikimedia.org
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
>
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 



Re: [Wikimedia-l] New essay on the ambiguity of NC licenses

2020-08-11 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
We do not need a "centralised Wiki for NC files". What we need is
recognition of what we have and where we have it.

In the Wikification of media files, only the files at Commons have so far
been considered. In addition to the mediafiles that should be in Commons
because of their license, there are mediafiles that have all kinds of
licenses and may also be used under the "fair use" doctrine. When there is
one database for any and all mediafiles, many things become possible
including searching and finding files that are "not commercial"..

One significant benefit is that we can phase a fair use file out when there
is a freely available picture.
Thanks,
 GerardM

On Tue, 14 Jul 2020 at 15:32, Alessandro Marchetti via Wikimedia-l <
wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> wrote:

>  Centralized Wiki for NC files will work. It's the same debate when we
> started to put metadata on Commons, it did not stop the process, it just
> made it slower and less efficient, but it remained kinda inevitable.
> It's the same background, the frustration and confusion of the current
> situation is projected to the future one, it's mostly a "passive"
> resistance with a little bit of patronizing attitude toward other
> communities. It happens also because the more some users assume this future
> scenario is inevitable, the easier it is for them to consider the present
> situation as inevitable as well and skip any responsibility, it's a little
> bit an identity element.
>
> Local users are not confused or irritated in general because they are
> moody, it's mostly because the Commons community is moody. Local
> communities are not three or four isolated users, they are structured, with
> a spectrum of established competences. The mass of users involved will come
> from that pool. I am pretty sure that if you build a repository without all
> the users who encouraged most of the dysfunctional attitude we have now on
> Commons, it's going to be better, if not fine. For some of us in the end
> the local user repeating a wrong concept to get a file kept is very similar
> to the Commons user doing the same to make it deleted, the same stubborn
> attitude with limited overall perspective that few people really wanted in
> the first place. These two profiles find a balance but it's not the best
> balance for the general workflow, it's a "social thing". Whatever disrupt
> the situation, give us some chance to improve that.
>
> Of course many users will show there to oppose. And if approved, for the
> first two or three years at every single minor misstep of the process they
> will jump there foretelling disasters: They usually find the time to oppose
> to this sort of requests, more than doing a lot of other tasks probably,
> and the concepts are usually the same. That's why its getting more and more
> difficult to give to it a big weigh.
> In any case, some way to centralize existing NC will be found. For
> example, think about Wikidata item for logos and connect them to local
> files. It will be more tortuous, in a way it's not noticed immediately,
> probably. Until we get there somehow, personally I skip many activities
> regarding NC including their conversion, and focus on something else. I am
> probably not the only one adopting more or less this attitude.
>
> Good outreach for me is not about a single aspect, is a method, and will
> always include a spectrum of results. The statement "no Wikipedia if you
> don't remove NC" is not really so effective, it sounds cheap especially
> after many years Wiki exists and people know what they want. For the
> high-quality material we miss, I think it's more about proposing a good
> project, a structured project and in that framework I can suggest to update
> some NC. I have refused to trick people to give files with no NC, I clearly
> tell them to understand the license. There are many files which were not
> uploaded initially, but those users ended up giving more new files later.
> If I could be a user with a flag for NC upload, I will put a very limited
> amount of files per year, but the process behind such files will be very
> valuable.
>
> A.
>
>Il martedì 14 luglio 2020, 09:41:05 CEST, Erik Moeller <
> eloque...@gmail.com> ha scritto:
>
>  James wrote:
>
> > I simply wish that such a position would convince more
> > organizations. WHO has repeatedly told me that we, as a non-profit, are
> > already free to use their work and if we chose not to, that is on us.
>
> I agree of course that this sort of institutional inertia can be
> incredibly frustrating, especially in cases like WHO -- a publicly
> funded international institution which should be putting its work in
> the public domain. For all its own institutional failings (and there
> are many, past and present), the US was at least able to get that much
> right in its copyright laws more than 100 years ago. I don't believe
> we should let publicly funded institutions that use restrictive
> licensing terms off the hook, and 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Universal Code of Conduct Drafting Committee - Call for participation

2020-08-01 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
So what is your alternative, what do you have as an alternative?
Thanks,
  GerardM

On Thu, 30 Jul 2020 at 20:24, Peter Southwood 
wrote:

> Hi Christel,
> I wish the committee well, and success in coming up with a workable
> policy. This is fine as long as no assumption is made that these people
> represent the communities in any way other than for themselves. They may be
> fine people and may even have excellent ideas and skills suited to the
> task, but they are not our representatives, and we expect to be consulted
> regarding the results of this work. I understand that this may be your
> intention anyway, but we have seen too many fiascos  resulting from a small
> group of people coming up with some proposal and WMF declaring this to be
> "movement policy" or something to that effect.
> Cheers,
> Peter
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On
> Behalf Of Christel Steigenberger
> Sent: 30 July 2020 19:49
> To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Universal Code of Conduct Drafting Committee -
> Call for participation
>
> Hello everyone,
>
>
> We are happy to announce that the Universal Code of Conduct drafting
> committee has been assembled. We had 26 volunteers apply, either by
> publicly signing up on the Meta page, or by sending an email. Volunteers
> from 18 different countries applied, speaking 11 different languages.
>
> We had Wikimedian applicants with different levels of experience on-wiki,
> from someone who started editing only last year to people who have been
> editing for more than 18 years and/or have more than 300,000 edits.
> Applicants held a variety of different roles within the movement, and also
> informed us about interesting and relevant experiences in their real-life
> careers. It was very hard to narrow down from this diverse and extremely
> qualified pool of applicants.
>
> For the final selection, two aspects guided the decision making - we want a
> committee that at the one hand will represent important parts of the
> movement. Prolific editors as well as Wikimedians whose strength is more in
> organizing events, wikimedians from different demographics, contributors
> from small and large wikis, and people holding different roles within the
> movement. We also wanted a group of people who will collaborate with one
> another effectively and create the best possible Universal Code of Conduct
> for the Wikimedia movement. Experience has taught us that committees that
> are too large find it difficult to work effectively, so we decided to cap
> the number of seats to 6 volunteer seats and 3 staff seats.
>
> More information on the Committee and its new members can be found on Meta
> <
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Universal_Code_of_Conduct/Drafting_committee
> >
> [1], and a timeline for their work is available on the main UCoC page
>  [2]. Please
> note that more chances for engagement are coming up during the community
> draft review period starting from August 24.
>
> Best regards,
> Christel
>
>   [1]
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Universal_Code_of_Conduct/Drafting_committee
>
> [2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Universal_Code_of_Conduct
>
> Christel Steigenberger (she/her)
>
> Trust and Safety Specialist
>
> Wikimedia Foundation 
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
>
> --
> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
> https://www.avg.com
>
>
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 


[Wikimedia-l] Freedom and speech.. broaching the subject of our Wikimedia bias

2020-07-20 Thread Gerard Meijssen
I have documenten my Wiki related activities for fifteen years on my blog
[1]. I write argued opinions centred around my experiences. I always invite
people to consider the arguments and argue their point.

At this point I find the Wikimedia Foundation increasingly intolerant of
considered opinions. I made the case for other projects, considered
remedies like bonuses for senior management for growth in other projects,
and I do consider it a bias when everything is centred around Wikipedia and
the English Wikipedia at that.
I find that I am censured when I want to post to this Facebook group and I
am censured when I post on Wikimedia-l. Read what I write, my arguments are
to make our movement a better place. Look up what I do and have done, with
2,770,630 edits I have been deeply involved in our projects. I am censured
because it is not ok for me to speak freely and say that our approach is
one of bias, a bias that is detrimental to our mission.
Thanks,
GerardM

PS it will be a relief when I find this posted on the mailinglist and when
my latest blogpost gets attention on Facebook

[1] https://ultimategerardm.blogspot.com/
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 


Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system

2020-07-20 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
How can OTRS be part of Wikipedia, it is there for any and all projects.
Thanks,
  GerardM

On Sat, 11 Jul 2020 at 10:48, Peter Southwood 
wrote:

> Context is necessary to understand this.
> If OTRS part of Wikipedia? If not, Which ANI?
> Cheers,
> Peter
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On
> Behalf Of Aron Manning
> Sent: 11 July 2020 09:23
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system
>
> On Mon, 6 Jul 2020 at 19:52, Jonatan Svensson Glad <
> gladjona...@outlook.com>
> wrote:
>
> > 8. if an individual has been acting contrary to policy, what is the
> > process for reviewing and if necessary overturning their past actions
> > (including contacting and apologising to their correspondents)?
> > I’m unable to answer this due to the Confidentiality Agreement all OTRS
> > agents sign.
>
>
> I recall one experience with OTRS in which I've received this brief answer:
>
> > Report them to ANI and hope you're not *hit in the face with a
> boomerang*.
> >
> > Yours sincerely, ...
>
> The individual did not apologize in further correspondence and I haven't
> thought about contacting OTRS since then.
>
>
> Aron
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
>
>
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 


Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikimedia Announcements] Announcing a new Wikimedia project: Abstract Wikipedia

2020-07-20 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
HAPPY NEWS :)

We will learn a lot, experience many challenges and it does have the
potential to provide more of the information that is available to us.
Particularly in languages other than English the impact can be huge.

At a Wikidata conference in Berlin we had someone from PanLex present [1],
with the new project this is a collaboration that will make a big
difference.

Happy to see many parts of the puzzle find a place.
Thanks,
  GerardM


[1] https://mobile.wikidatacon.org/#_session-SE-14

On Thu, 2 Jul 2020 at 18:04, Katherine Maher  wrote:

> (A translatable version of this announcement can be found on Meta [1])
>
> Hi all,
>
> It is my honor to introduce Abstract Wikipedia [1], a new project that has
> been unanimously approved by the Wikimedia Foundation Board of Trustees.
> Abstract Wikipedia proposes a new way to generate baseline encyclopedic
> content in a multilingual fashion, allowing more contributors and more
> readers to share more knowledge in more languages. It is an approach that
> aims to make cross-lingual cooperation easier on our projects, increase the
> sustainability of our movement through expanding access to participation,
> improve the user experience for readers of all languages, and innovate in
> free knowledge by connecting some of the strengths of our movement to
> create something new.
>
> This is our first new project in over seven years. Abstract Wikipedia was
> submitted as a project proposal by Denny Vrandečić in May of 2020 [2] after
> years of preparation and research, leading to a detailed plan and lively
> discussions in the Wikimedia communities. We know that the energy and the
> creativity of the community often runs up against language barriers, and
> information that is available in one language may not make it to other
> language Wikipedias. Abstract Wikipedia intends to look and feel like a
> Wikipedia, but build on the powerful, language-independent conceptual
> models of Wikidata, with the goal of letting volunteers create and maintain
> Wikipedia articles across our polyglot Wikimedia world.
>
> The project will allow volunteers to assemble the fundamentals of an
> article using words and entities from Wikidata. Because Wikidata uses
> conceptual models that are meant to be universal across languages, it
> should be possible to use and extend these building blocks of knowledge to
> create models for articles that also have universal value. Using code,
> volunteers will be able to translate these abstract “articles” into their
> own languages. If successful, this could eventually allow everyone to read
> about any topic in Wikidata in their own language.
>
> As you can imagine, this work will require a lot of software development,
> and a lot of cooperation among Wikimedians. In order to make this effort
> possible, Denny will join the Foundation as a staff member in July and lead
> this initiative. You may know Denny as the creator of Wikidata, a long-time
> community member, a former staff member at Wikimedia Deutschland, and a
> former Trustee at the Wikimedia Foundation[3]. We are very excited that
> Denny will bring his skills and expertise to work on this project alongside
> the Foundation’s product, technology, and community liaison teams.
>
> It is important to acknowledge that this is an experimental project and
> that every Wikipedia community has different needs. This project may offer
> some communities great advantages. Other communities may engage less. Every
> language Wikipedia community will be free to choose and moderate whether or
> how they would use content from this project.
>
> We are excited that this new wiki-project has the possibility to advance
> knowledge equity through increased access to knowledge. It also invites us
> to consider and engage with critical questions about how and by whom
> knowledge is constructed. We look forward to working in cooperation with
> the communities to think through these important questions.
>
> There is much to do as we begin designing a plan for Abstract Wikipedia in
> close collaboration with our communities. I encourage you to get involved
> by going to the project page and joining the new mailing list[4]. We
> recognize that Abstract Wikipedia is ambitious, but we also recognize its
> potential. We invite you all to join us on a new, unexplored path.
>
> Yours,
> Katherine Maher
>
> Executive Director,
> Wikimedia Foundation
>
> [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:MyLanguage/Abstract
> Wikipedia/June 2020 announcement
> [2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:MyLanguage/Abstract_Wikipedia
> [3] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Denny
> [4] https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/abstract-wikipedia
> --
>
> Katherine Maher (she/her)
>
> Executive Director
>
> Wikimedia Foundation 
>
> ___
> Please note: all replies sent to this mailing list will be immediately
> directed to 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Board update on Branding: next steps

2020-06-29 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
Dunning and Kruger have nothing to do with it; I am perfectly able to get
it wrong. What you do is dismissive and you do not make a point. That makes
it a fail by default.
Thanks,
 GerardM

On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 at 13:58, Peter Southwood 
wrote:

> Dunning and Kruger identified the effect, unfortunately they did not
> identify a cure.
> Cheers,
> P
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On
> Behalf Of Gerard Meijssen
> Sent: 29 June 2020 12:36
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Board update on Branding: next steps
>
> Hoi,
> Just analyse the text, read the arguments. When you express an opinion, it
> warrants analysis. When this is not permitted it follows that you can not
> argue based on what people state. To what extend do you allow for the
> exchange of arguments when you do not allow for reading and commenting on
> what has been expressed?
>
> For the record I do value WereSpielChequers, he is imho an accomplished
> Wikimedian who I respect.
>
> When you tell me that I cannot comment on what people write, how do you
> expose a bias. What does it do for a freedom of expression? What I bring
> are arguments that you do not refute by dismissing them.
> Thanks,
>GerardM
>
> On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 at 11:43, Benjamin Lees  wrote:
>
> > On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 4:56 AM Gerard Meijssen <
> gerard.meijs...@gmail.com
> > >
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Dear WereSpielChequers, the thing with bias is that it shows in the
> > choices
> > > made. You are a Wikipedian, do not really care for the other projects
> and
> > > you make that plain in what you say.
> > >
> >
> > This sort of assumption-making about other list participants' motives is
> > completely unwarranted.[1]  You've been doing it repeatedly.  Please
> stop.
> >
> > [1] As regards WereSpielChequers, it is also demonstrably false.  He has
> > nearly 500,000 edits on Commons.
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>
> --
> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
> https://www.avg.com
>
>
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 
<mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Board update on Branding: next steps

2020-06-29 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
Just analyse the text, read the arguments. When you express an opinion, it
warrants analysis. When this is not permitted it follows that you can not
argue based on what people state. To what extend do you allow for the
exchange of arguments when you do not allow for reading and commenting on
what has been expressed?

For the record I do value WereSpielChequers, he is imho an accomplished
Wikimedian who I respect.

When you tell me that I cannot comment on what people write, how do you
expose a bias. What does it do for a freedom of expression? What I bring
are arguments that you do not refute by dismissing them.
Thanks,
   GerardM

On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 at 11:43, Benjamin Lees  wrote:

> On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 4:56 AM Gerard Meijssen  >
> wrote:
>
> > Dear WereSpielChequers, the thing with bias is that it shows in the
> choices
> > made. You are a Wikipedian, do not really care for the other projects and
> > you make that plain in what you say.
> >
>
> This sort of assumption-making about other list participants' motives is
> completely unwarranted.[1]  You've been doing it repeatedly.  Please stop.
>
> [1] As regards WereSpielChequers, it is also demonstrably false.  He has
> nearly 500,000 edits on Commons.
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 
<mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Board update on Branding: next steps

2020-06-29 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
Dear WereSpielChequers, the thing with bias is that it shows in the choices
made. You are a Wikipedian, do not really care for the other projects and
you make that plain in what you say. The problem with bias is that it has
consequences in how you approach issues. When Wikipedia "consensus" has it
that we do not collaborate with Wikidata, it follows that you will not
consider linking blue and red wiki links to Wikidata items and not to
Wikipedia titles. From a Wikipedia point of view it is perfectly acceptable
but no longer a great choice. From a Wikimedia point of view,
not considering options shows that there is no consideration for our
overall goal; sharing in the sum of all knowledge.

Wikimedia has multiple projects and we will have more impact when we
collaborate. Commons is searchable in any and all languages thanks to
Special:MediaSearch [1], when we expose it on every Wikipedia, it will be
easier to illustrate Wikipedias. Wikidata can rid Wikipedia of much of its
false friends problem and it can ensure that lists are better maintained.
Magnus has shown that this is true even for English Wikipedia and as always
English Wikipedia is only one of the Wikipedias.

When Wikipedia is mentioned, English Wikipedia is implied. It has something
like 50% of our traffic and it does represent less than 50% or our target
audience. I am all for improving the marketing of our projects but the bias
for and the toxicity of English Wikipedia makes me oppose it. In essence,
it is English Wikipedia that has to polish up its act, accept
opposing points of view from others before it becomes reasonable to accept
it as a flagship.
Thanks,
  GerardM



[1]
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:MediaSearch?type=bitmap=boomkikker

On Sun, 28 Jun 2020 at 23:06, WereSpielChequers 
wrote:

> Dear Natalia,
>
> I wouldn't say that it was a badly designed survey, more that it was a
> survey designed to constrain responses to three specific options. The
> problem is with the choice of those options and that the survey seems to be
> designed to push the community into a particular direction, rather than
> find out what direction if any the community wanted to go in.
>
> "No name change is necessary" is not the only missing option. I'm sure I am
> not the only person who accepts that Wikipedia and Wikimedia are
> sufficiently similar that it causes confusion, or who knows that some
> people assume that we are connected to WikiLeaks. Changing the name of the
> WMF to something that is a suitable parent for all the projects, not just
> Wikipedia, and that reduces confusion with WikiLeaks should be a relatively
> harmless thing for the WMF to do. There are only a limited number of
> projects that the WMF can take on at any time, and this wouldn't have been
> my priority. But if you are going to rebrand, then doing so without
> differentiating yourselves from WikiLeaks, and without maintaining some
> sense of being a parent for multiple projects not just one favoured child,
> does seem to me to be a mistake. So "if you want to change your name, don't
> change it to Wikipedia, Wiki or to something you can't trademark" is also a
> position, I suspect it is stronger than "no name change is necessary".
>
>
> Regards
>
> WereSpielChequers
>
>
>
> Message: 1
> > Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2020 02:27:11 +0300
> > From: Nataliia Tymkiv 
> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List 
> > Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Board update on Branding: next steps
> > Message-ID:
> > <
> > cakt1n5oks9e_vaez4lkizjrv_9p4oqjscc26fvyvykip13y...@mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> >
> > Dear all,
> >
> > I want to share with you the next steps of the Wikimedia Foundation Board
> > of Trustees about the Brand Project.
> >
> > Originally the Board meeting dedicated to the brand project was supposed
> to
> > happen no earlier than October. The expected outcome from the project
> were
> > the recommendations on what the rebranding should look like - from
> changing
> > fonts/logos to renaming. And if there is going to be a renaming - to
> what.
> > Of course, the Board’s role is not in approving a change in fonts, but
> if a
> > recommendation to rename was to be made - the Board’s role would have
> been
> > to make a decision on that recommendation. The timeline has now been
> > changed, and the renaming part of rebranding will be discussed in our
> > August meeting.
> >
> > Moreover, the Board will meet in early July to receive a briefing about
> the
> > project and talk about the process between June 2018 - June 2020. The
> > consolidated materials on what the brand project team has been working on
> > for a while now will be presented to the Board, and these materials are
> > also going to be posted publicly. The more-strategic conversation is
> > planned for the August meeting. Time to prepare the materials is needed,
> > and the ongoing conversations need to be summarised, so the Board can
> have
> > an in-depth discussion about this, before 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Thoughts on the rebranding initiative: "Movement"

2020-06-22 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
It is abundantly clear that some identify only by their community. It is
abundantly clear that people in some communities do not recognise shared
values like "sharing in the sum of all knowledge".

It is also clear that the Wikimedia Foundation is not bound by what some in
a community insist on. It is exactly what was foreseen when the WMF was
incorporated. It is also why the WMF does not need to agree with what some
in a community express.
Thanks,
 GerardM

On Mon, 22 Jun 2020 at 08:02, Paul J. Weiss  wrote:

> [From my comments in the rebranding survey]
>
> "Movement"
>
> Please stop calling us a "movement". I am an active Wikipedia contributor,
> but I do not feel part of a movement. Know that I feel excluded when we are
> referred to as a movement. I would guess that most Wikimedians do not
> consider themselves part of a movement. I feel that I am part of the
> Wikimedia _community_.
>
> Note that in the English Wikipedia the title of the relevant article is
> indeed "Wikipedia community", _not_ "Wikipedia movement" (which is a
> redirect). In fact, the word "movement" does not appear in the main text of
> the article at all. "Wikimedia movement" is the title of its article, but
> it is described as "the global community of contributors to Wikimedia
> Foundation projects". A community of contributors is not the same thing as
> a movement. I would say that none of the definitions given in the
> Definitions section of the Social movement article apply to us.
>
> One significant problem to using "movement" is that some, including the
> WMF, exploit the connotations of the word towards social justice, or a
> "greater good", as a rationalization for behaviors that a community might
> not support (and in many cases our community has indeed opposed WMF's
> behavior). Another is the implication that there is basically a core set of
> beliefs and priorities that all those involved support. This is clearly not
> the case in the Wikimedia community. I also think there is an assumption
> that in a movement, there are institutions that those in the movement
> explicitly or implicitly authorize to speak for them. Again, clearly this
> is not the case in the Wikimedia community overall.
>
> Paul Weiss
> User:Libcub
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 


Re: [Wikimedia-l] Board Update on Branding

2020-06-22 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
Please take a step back. The Wikimedia Foundation is incorporated in a way
specifically designed to prevent the community from taking over. The
problem with the community is that there is no community as such; there is
a movement that includes different communities with different needs and
with different expectations. The bottom line is what we are there for. For
me it is sharing in the sum of all knowledge. Depending on how you look at
it we do a great job or we have the biggest job in front of us. I think we
have our biggest job in front of us.

The notion of Wikipedia something is from a marketing point of view easy.
It is the best known brand and it has a huge recognition, a huge positive
recognition. However, where we are weakest our brand is weakest and as such
it makes sense to go Wikipedia.  From a community point of view, it is
problematic. For me the most problematic part is that Wikipedia is
primarily associated with English Wikipedia and it prevents modernisation
even when it will improve its quality.

We should not burden our movement by identifying it with this
Anglo/American legacy.

In conclusion, the Wikimedia Foundation is structurally separated from by
those people who address themselves as the community. Like me, they are
not. Unlike me they do not consider why marketing has a place in our
movement and, it is more than just getting attention for the Wikipedia
product.
Thanks,
  Gerard

On Mon, 22 Jun 2020 at 08:01, Dan Szymborski  wrote:

> OK, you say that you take "full responsibility" for the situation. What
> exactly does "full responsibility" entail? How will the relations between
> the board and the communities differ compared to the moment *before* full
> responsibility was taken?
>
> Is the board changing the degree to which it will consider community
> opinions?
> Is the board allowing a wider set of possibilities of new names?
> Is the board granting the possibility of no change at all?
> Is the board inviting additional community representatives to the board for
> the limited purpose of deciding on a new name or whether to rename?
> Are members of the board who are responsible for this poor communication
> with the community resigning from the board?
> Are members of the board who are responsible for this poor communication
> with the community recusing themselves from further votes on this specific
> matter?
> Are you, the person who is taking "full responsibility," resigning from the
> board?
>
> As far as I see, absolutely nothing has changed. In fact, certain things
> have been made even stronger against the community. Why, in a plea to
> better communication is it necessary to remind the community that the board
> can do whatever they want?
>
> "However, it is important to be clear: the Board absolutely can change the
> name of the Wikimedia Foundation, even to the “Wikipedia Foundation,” if it
> decides."?
>
> Imagine I'm driving with three friends in my car and we're deciding where
> to go for dinner. They all say "anything but pizza." I respond, "well, I
> have the keys and you're in my car, so it's pizza."
>
> After some grumbling, I tell them that their opinions are important and
> that they can pick the toppings for their pizzas. Well, not pick the
> toppings, but they can choose between "pepperoni," "extra pepperoni" or
> "half-pepperoni."
>
> Naturally, there's some consternation about why I'm doing this and how
> that's not exactly a choice. Then I remind them that I'm still picking the
> toppings too, but their input on whether we get pepperoni, extra pepperoni,
> or half-pepperoni is super-valuable and will be taken into consideration.
>
> But I take "full responsibility" for people being unhappy with dinner
> choice! Oh yeah, I absolutely get to decided whether we have pepperoni,
> extra pepperoni, or half-pepperoni, because, well, I have the keys and it's
> my car and it's too bad.
>
> But they're all super appreciated and their opinions are valuable!
>
> One thing I've learned from my years at ESPN/ABC is when I'm being fed a
> line of nonsense through the medium of vanilla corporate-speak. And, I'm
> sad to say, the community is being fed a massive heap of nonsense. None of
> this will change until such time the movement itself is treated like a
> *real* stakeholder, not simply the conveniently unpaid employees of a board
> with unlimited discretion to do whatever it wants, irrespective of any
> opinions of the community. Until such time as there's a state in which the
> board recognizes that they're the servants of the movements, the people who
> turn the steering wheel of the ship and not the captain, this state of
> affairs will continue to exist.
>
> Best,
>
> Dan
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jun 21, 2020 at 8:44 PM Nataliia Tymkiv 
> wrote:
>
> > Dear all,
> >
> > As Acting Chair of the Wikimedia Foundation Board of Trustees since March
> > [1] I take full responsibility for this situation. I am truly sorry for
> all
> > the frustration this whole 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Brand Project] Rescheduling Naming Convention Proposal community review

2020-06-21 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
I do not translate but I do care. What I personally do is include data in a
structured manner. I do it for things I more or less care about.. It does
include awards, educated at, employed by, Ottoman history, Africa,
science.. The point in what I do is that much of these structures can be
represented in any and all languages, it is just a matter of adding labels.

People may think that I do not like Wikipedia but I do. People may think
that I do not like the WMF but I do. It is just that we could do better.
The best of us are all united in this. I also think that most of us do not
need to be told what to work on. For me the WMF is an enabler. It makes
things possible. I do not mind them to do different things from what I want
as long as I can do what I care about. I just want them to understand their
own/our bias.

As to the community, what community? Also opinions are a dime a dozen. More
relevant are the underpinning arguments and truly shelve those opinions
when we are done with these arguments.
Thanks,
  GerardM

On Sun, 21 Jun 2020 at 12:50, Dan Szymborski  wrote:

> On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 6:58 PM Zack McCune  wrote:
>
> > Hi GerardM,
> >
> > Indeed!
> >
> >
> > As I mentioned in my earlier message, the process will be multilingual.
> We
> > want to ensure that as many people as possible from across the movement
> > have the opportunity to participate, so we are working hard to make that
> > happen. When it comes to naming in particular, we need to understand the
> > localization opportunities and challenges of the different proposals in
> > order to arrive at a system that works globally. We are having both the
> > survey and the proposals translated into Arabic, Chinese, French, German,
> > Russian and Spanish.
>
>
> To be perfectly honest, while I'm not a professional translator, it can't
> certainly can't take that many hours of work to translate "the board is
> going to pick whatever name they want, irrespective of anything the
> communities offer" into many languages.
>
> Seriously, why all the theater? The board cared little for how the
> community felt about the initial name change proposal, code of conduct, and
> crammed the 2030 project so aggressively down the throats of the community
> that even the most deluded as to the state of affairs saw it was pointless
> to offer any additional feedback. There's still no transparency for board
> conflicts-of-interest during the Fram incident or the capricious and
> arbitrary extension of the term of community board seats.
>
> Every single person reading this knows that the board is going to do
> whatever it wants anyway, so why insult the community with the pretense
> that any opinions of the community actually matter?
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 


Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Foundation proposal to call ourselves as the Wikipedia Network, Wikipedia Movement or simply Wiki

2020-06-21 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
Today I wrote a "swot analysis" [1]. What I want us to achieve is an
increased effectiveness in our aim to share the sum of all knowledge.

What I write is stark. I allow for a situation where Mr Trump remains
president. I contrast on the one hand that room for growth (think audience)
is not in English but in our other languages and that our bias for English
prevents us from realising this. This same bias is also in "Wikipedians"
claiming that we do not need additional funds because "Wikipedia" of
their claim that it does not need it. The same bias is in research, papers
not about English Wikipedia have a hard time of being published so what
data is our strategy based on?

Thanks,
  GerardM

[1]
https://ultimategerardm.blogspot.com/2020/06/marketing-wikimedia-but-first-some-swot.html

On Sun, 21 Jun 2020 at 12:23, Roman Bustria Jr.  wrote:

> Hi Folks,
>
> There is a proposal initiated by the Wikimedia Foundation to call ourselves
> the "Wikipedia Network", "Wikipedia Movement" or simply "Wiki".
>
> I strongly suggest that the Foundation should allocate time & resources
> with the Wikimedia community fully involved in *identifying and resolving
> the real problem *that brought the idea of creating the brands department.
> These include opening communication channels like what was done in our
> strategy 2030 process to ask recommendations on how we strengthen the
> Wikimedia identity (like having online and offline promotion of the
> "Wikimedia" identity)
>
> I was puzzled how this Brand project was not fully integrated in the 2017
> and 2018-2020 Movement Strategy Process.
>
> But hey, we can do a counter proposal and offer a better and more
> acceptable solution to this.
>
>
> As shared by the Florence in the other mailing list:
>
> 1) if you are not aware of the topic, and arguments behind the
> proposition >
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Communications/Wikimedia_brands/2030_movement_brand_project
> 2) if you would like to read some feedback from the community, check
> this :
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Should_the_Foundation_call_itself_Wikipedia
> 3) to read the proposals :
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Communications/Wikimedia_brands/2030_movement_brand_project/Naming_convention_proposals
> 4) to watch the presentation via youtube  :
> *https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3zlBGHHHiY
> *
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Sincerely,
>
> Butch Bustria
>
>
>
> -
> The information contained in this message is privileged and intended only
> for the recipients named. If the reader is not a representative of the
> intended recipient, any review, dissemination or copying of this message or
> the information it contains is prohibited. If you have received this
> message in error, please immediately notify the sender, and delete the
> original message and attachments.
>
> Please consider the environment before printing this email.
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 


Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: transition to implementation begins

2020-06-10 Thread Gerard Meijssen
 Hoi,

The biggest problem of this strategy document that I see is that it is
oriented towards our own internals. This is best understood from the first
sentence: *People-centeredness means that every aspect of our Movement must
address the needs and challenges of the people who power it and whom it
serves, so that each one can contribute in their best way to the sum of
human knowledge.*

It does not mention what we do and why we do it. It follows that based on
this we cannot give priority to our biggest bias; what we do first and
foremost is service wants in English. This bias is huge and when we were a
company, we would recognise that around 50% of Wikipedia traffic is in
English. We would realise the extend that scholarly publications are in
English studying aspects of English Wikipedia. We would know that we do not
have much data on everything else. We would be aware of our other products
and strategise how to improve their market value. For our movement, market
value is in the number of people it serves. We would for instance know that
Wikisource books are marketed in India external to us and we would consider
what it takes to provide a proper interface so that people find what is
available to them thanks to a non-English community. A community we do not
notice nor respect.

We are so happy with American students (doing good work) on English
Wikipedia but we do not engage high school students, even primary school
students who could write in their language expanding Wikipedias often with
less than 10.000 articles.

We have an opportunity to turn this around. We have this notion that we are
going to do things differently in this strategy. We have the papers that
for many are too long to read and we have the Special:MediaSearch (publicly
available for two weeks now) that enables search in Commons in all our
languages. When we support it in the Wikiway, we will allow for it not to
be perfect. We will find that as we add items to pictures that we will find
more results or even only results.. Try to find هيلين كوبر using text based
search in Commons and compare the results.

As a product, Commons only serves our own needs. We do not know the number
of downloads of pictures we do not know the extend Commons has been
searched in other languages. This is true for Wikidata as well. We may know
the volume of queries it serves but in what language and how do we extend
the usefulness of Wikidata in languages other than English? What strategies
are in place is this a key performance indicator? How can we show that we
care?

With Commons enabled for search in any language thanks to the
Special:MediaSearch, we have the perfect tool to start address this bias.
We can measure in what language Commons is searched. We can measure the
number of labels added to Wikidata that help people find images. We can
measure the number of downloads from Commons that happen as a result. We
can then demonstrate the pent up need there is.

This will likely be very much driven by the Wikimedia Foundation itself.
There will be outcries from vested interests that it detracts from
other/their priorities. People will state that they are disgusted with us
giving priority in this way. But do realise, white black of yellow, when
your language is English you are well served and others are not. English is
only about 50% of our traffic and you would not say so from what we
advertise we do.

Thanks,

  GerardM
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 


Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Brand Project] Rescheduling Naming Convention Proposal community review

2020-06-07 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
How will you cope in other languages, other scripts. Is engaging all over
the world NOT in English a consideration>
Thanks,
   GerardM

On Thu, 4 Jun 2020 at 05:34, Zack McCune  wrote:

> Hi Tito -
>
> Your observation is fair and welcome. The project team will update the
> timeline on Meta-Wiki to reflect the latest rescheduling and our relaunched
> consultations.
>
> The priority is on completing the collaborative design activities of the
> project (naming, design, and style guides) in time for the birthday in
> January. The process of adoption will follow the completion of this work,
> so it too will be adjusted in the timeline.
>
> The project team is working to keep this timeline as accurate as we can
> amidst much global uncertainty, so I want to be the first to acknowledge
> that timing will likely remain at the monthly estimate level and may
> further change.
>
> Thanks,
>
> - Zack
>
> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 7:59 PM Tito Dutta  wrote:
>
> > With kind permission, I would like to further explain my question (in
> case
> > it was unclear, and kindly assume good faith):
> > The resolution (linked above and at [1]) states that "the Board affirms
> its
> > support for the brand project and its strategic importance for the
> > movement, mission, and 2030 strategy, and the Board directs the
> Foundation
> > to complete this work by Wikipedia's 20th birthday."
> > – what is "this work" that is to be completed by January 2021?
> > I believe it includes implementation (first phase) as well? On Meta-Wiki
> > the /Timeline page mentions[2] "January 2021" as "Organizational
> > implementation: adoption by the Foundation with opt-in system for
> > affiliates.
> > I see an almost clear action point here that by January 2021 the opt-in
> > naming comes into picture for the communities, where the brand value of
> > Wikipedia will be experimented with a few communities/projects with
> direct
> > attention.
> > Wait, aren't we yet to start the review process?
> > Kindly note, other than the 3 or so models, I have noticed that there was
> > always another (robust) voice, and that's a "no".
> > Sincerely,
> > User:Titodutta
> >
> >
> > [1]
> >
> >
> https://foundation.wikimedia.org/wiki/Resolution:Brand_Project_Support_(May_2020)
> > [2]
> >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Communications/Wikimedia_brands/2030_movement_brand_project/Timeline=20140879#Post-project:_Adopt_and_advance_brand_(pending_approval_from_the_Board_of_Trustees_and_executive_leadership)
> >
> > Thanks
> > Tito Dutta
> > Note: If I don't reply to your email in 2 days, please feel free to
> remind
> > me over email or phone call.
> >
> >
> > On Thu, 4 Jun 2020 at 04:34, Tito Dutta  wrote:
> >
> > > Hello,
> > > From the resolution page (
> > >
> >
> https://foundation.wikimedia.org/wiki/Resolution:Brand_Project_Support_(May_2020)
> > > :
> > > "... and the Board directs the Foundation to complete this work by
> > > Wikipedia's 20th birthday."
> > > — That is 15 January 2021. Interesting.
> > > It seems the option is now to select one of three (re)naming options.
> > > Actually, I was going to suggest a "movement-wide review" may need more
> > > than 14 days of time for affiliates, and communities etc. .
> > > Thanks
> > > User:Titodutta
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, 4 Jun 2020 at 00:47, Zack McCune 
> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Hi everyone,
> > >>
> > >> As promised, we are back with an update and a new timeline to discuss
> > >> names
> > >> as a movement. We are excited to take on naming together beginning 16
> > >> June.
> > >> Here is an overview of what happened and what to expect:
> > >>
> > >> After additional weeks of legal review and a conversation with the
> Board
> > >> of
> > >> Trustees at their 22 May meeting, we have alignment to present three
> > >> naming
> > >> convention proposals for movement-wide review on 16 June.
> > >>
> > >> The Board of Trustees affirmed support for the project [1] and vetted
> > >> various naming options. They explored legal and financial implications
> > of
> > >> different approaches, and evaluated them based on their potential to
> act
> > >> as
> > >> compelling, unifying tools to elevate the work we are currently doing
> > and
> > >> ensure the future of our movement. Based on these assessments, the
> > >> movement-wide review will revolve around two naming convention
> proposals
> > >> centered on Wikipedia, one that is a Wiki/Wikipedia hybrid, and an
> open
> > >> response area where respondents can share their own naming proposals.
> > We
> > >> feel confident that the vetting process has led to solid proposals,
> > while
> > >> we also want to ensure we are open to your ideas  and are committed to
> > >> reviewing suggestions made in the open response area.
> > >>
> > >> While these weeks of work have reconfirmed that naming structures
> > centered
> > >> entirely on “Wiki” would not be legally feasible or financially
> > >> responsible, we were able to uncover ways in which 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Early thoughts regarding a global code of conduct and a GCC committee

2020-06-07 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
To help you remember, we had such situations in the past, they were
resolved. It was ultimately the language committee who stopped Wikipedias.
Background it is this same language committee who is instrumental in
starting new projects.

On a different topic. Diversity and bias is very much topical at this time.
At the same time we, the Wikimedia Foundation (org and movement) are in a
position to diminish the bias against all the other languages. A first
iteration of Special:MediaSearch [1] is available on Commons. It allows you
to find a cat in Amharic or Chinese, Korean, Kannada, Kiswahili and Dutch.
It is the first iteration of the official multi lingual search support of
the WMF. It can be localised. With a bit of effort it becomes available on
all of our projects.

What it takes to make Commons usable;
* access of everyone to this search functionality
* localisation at translatewiki.net
* labels in commons
* pictures that are to are know depict

The most important thing that will make this happen; is recognition that
this requires commitment, it is considered that it is the primary objective
it is (motto: "All of @WikiCommons is available to every single person on
the planet"). It is important to understand that with finite resources,
your hobby horse may take a backseat. You should embrace it because "other
languages" matter.

PS oh yes, and it works best in English anyway.
Thanks,
 GerardM

[1]
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:MediaSearch?type=bitmap=paka-kaya




[1]
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:MediaSearch?type=bitmap=paka-kaya

On Tue, 7 Apr 2020 at 21:43, Pine W  wrote:

> Hello,
>
> This topic has been in the back of my mind for awhile. Occasionally it
> comes up in conversations, and it has been discussed as part of the
> 2030 strategy process (see
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20).
> I have a few early thoughts that I'd like to share.
>
> I think that a global code of conduct, and a way to enforce it, could
> be good in some limited but important circumstances:
>
> (1) Where the governance of a Wikimedia project or another WMF conduct
> review organization has allegedly been compromised so extensively that
> removal of all of its administrators, functionaries, and/or other
> authorities should be considered for the purpose of providing a
> relatively "clean start" for reforming the affected domain's
> governance, or a domain is allegedly becoming so anarchic that
> peacekeeping from outsiders is necessary to restore order.
>
> In none of these cases am I suggesting that outsiders should attempt
> to get involved in content disputes or allegations of misconduct by a
> small proportion of a site's administrators or functionaries.
>
> By default, a global code of conduct committee should assume good
> faith regarding local consensus and/or the actions of a local
> arbitration committee, if they exist, and a global code of conduct
> committee should by default assume that any local consensus decisions
> and the decisions of a local arbitration committee are legitimate.
> These default positions may be changed if there is significant
> evidence suggesting that there should be a review of the situation by
> outsiders.
>
> (2) Where a steward, global sysop, Meta administrator, or other person
> in a similarly "meta" online position has allegedly misused their
> position, and other options have been exhausted or would involve
> publicly revealing evidence for which there is a very strong reason
> for privacy.
>
> (3) Where the current Ombudsman Commission (see
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Ombudsman_commission) has found fault
> with actions that are under its authority to review and recommends
> that individuals be sanctioned.
>
> (4) In the circumstances where, presently, WMF asserts a global ban.
>
> I would oppose the use of a global code of conduct or a global code of
> conduct committee for:
>
> (1) disputes which focus on one or a relatively small number of
> individuals. A global code of conduct committee could easily be
> overwhelmed by the number of cases, and I think that local
> administrators and functionaries who have good knowledge of a
> project's policies, guidelines, and language(s) are best placed to
> address these disputes.
>
> (2) content disputes.
>
> (3) functioning as a thin layer of cover for WMF-driven actions or
> acting as an extension of WMF.
>
> (4) silencing debates or unwelcome opinions for the purpose of making
> people feel safe. The Internet is not a safe place, and no amount of
> heavy policing will effectively guarantee safety on a large scale.
> Also, heavy policing can have the effects of stifling uncomfortable
> debates and providing cover for incompetence and corruption. This is
> not to say that we should accept people trying to bully newcomers or
> publish political propaganda on content pages, but I think that these
> issues are best resolved locally and the norms for them are best
> 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] 2020 Community Spotlight Survey

2020-05-31 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hey Chris,
The most inspiring thing, what will have a huge effect on our community
happened in the last week or so. It started with a proof of concept by Hay
Kranen [1]. It works and it brought search to Commons. Multi lingual search
to Commons. In the example you search for a "kamsalamander" in Russian.
Contrast that with the current Commons that is hardly usable and English
only.

After quite a bit of attention seeking, the official prototype of the multi
lingual search of the Wikimedia Foundation made its entry. Boy is THAT an
important experience. To given you one example, an English Wikipedia
article had the name in Urdu for a prominent Pakistani scientist. Adding
this label to Wikidata now enables people in Pakistan to find [2] مجدد احمد
اعجا ز .  People are looking for cats in Czech [3]... What this changes is
that Commons, the "collection of 61,807,201 freely usable media files to
which anyone can contribute" becomes "a collection of 61,807,201 freely
usable media files to which anyone can use".

It does not stop there. For any Wikipedia article, in any language, we can
now provide a pre filled search that will show what Commons has in
media files. Let this sink in...

It is a prototype and yes, it needs major improvements to make it sing.
That is however not what is important in a Wiki environment. It took months
for the original Commons to be usable as the place where images were to be
found and could be linked from Wikipedia articles. Special:MediaSearch is
already functional. Functional in all our languages. What will immediately
improve it are labels in Wikidata and "depict" statements on pictures.

When we are to know how important this is, collect statistics on the use
of Special:MediaSearch. Split this in the language it is used for and
market the hell out of this.. Expand our public, make Commons what it
should be; the most important resource of freely available media files.

This is imho the most important new functionality since Wikidata.
Thanks,
   GerardM

[1]
https://tools.wmflabs.org/hay/sdsearch/?locale=ru#q=haswbstatement:P180=Q138539
[2]
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:MediaSearch?type=bitmap=%D9%85%D8%AC%D8%AF%D8%AF+%D8%A7%D8%AD%D9%85%D8%AF+%D8%A7%D8%B9%D8%AC%D8%A7+%D8%B2
[3]
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:MediaSearch?type=bitmap=Ko%C4%8Dka


On Sat, 30 May 2020 at 21:22, Chris Koerner  wrote:

> Hello Wikimedians around the world
>
>
> In these difficult times many of us miss the chance to connect in person
> with other Wikimedians. We miss the events and meetings where we could
> learn from and about each other. So we thought to use this time to learn
> from each other more about the great people that make up our communities.
> We would like to give some of them a bit of a spotlight in our virtual
> spaces like our blogs and social media in the absence of physical
> connection points.
>
> Do you know a community member who has accomplished something new or
> inspiring in the last year? Someone who you think the rest of the community
> should know about? If so, please take a few minutes and nominate them in
> the survey below.
>
> Let us know about their inspiring work, whatever form it took, online or
> offline. This can include but is not limited to adding important content
> directly to one of our projects, encouraging and supporting others in
> adding content, teaching the public about Wikipedia or other Wikimedia
> projects, building partnerships, or organizing events and helping your
> local community thrive. We are also curious to learn about the different
> ways people enrich our movement!
>
> Use the following link to take the survey.
>
>
>-
>
>https://wikimedia.qualtrics.com/jfe/form/SV_0plqKWa1o1ztZ1b?target=ML-l
><
> https://wikimedia-dot-yamm-track.appspot.com/Redirect?ukey=1_JszED7z9mHJlC_7Re2_Ii-c3PTOYUhX6BxcSj15bCM-336432506=YAMMID-66517761=https%3A%2F%2Fwikimedia.qualtrics.com%2Fjfe%2Fform%2FSV_0plqKWa1o1ztZ1b%3Ftarget%3DML-l
> >
>
>
> Thank you in advance for helping us highlight more wonderful people and
> accomplishments from all over the world!
>
> Your privacy is important to us and is governed by the linked privacy
> statement. In this survey, we will request your contact information and
> that of the individual you are nominating. Please be sure that the person
> you are nominating understands you are providing us with their information.
> We will use this information to get in touch with nominees, should they
> meet our selection criteria. We will retain this contact information
> indefinitely unless you or the person you nominate request its deletion or
> update it in a subsequent survey; please see the privacy statement
> <
> https://wikimedia-dot-yamm-track.appspot.com/Redirect?ukey=1_JszED7z9mHJlC_7Re2_Ii-c3PTOYUhX6BxcSj15bCM-336432506=YAMMID-66517761=https%3A%2F%2Ffoundation.wikimedia.org%2Fwiki%2F2020_Community_Spotlight_Survey_Privacy_Statement
> >
> for details.
>
> Kind regards,
> Chris Koerner (he/him)
> 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Giving Commons a bigger public

2020-05-29 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
I have been playing with the tool for some time and it is already great; it
works and it is a great basis to expand on. Expand its functionality and
data quality.

I added a label in Urdu in Wikidata for "Mujaddid Ahmad Ijaz" and once the
synchronisation was done, I found a wealth of pictures for him. That IS
powerful and demonstrates how labeling in Wikidata improves results in
Commons. I looked for "Frans Vera", a Dutch ecologists, not really finding
him in a lot of noisy results. There was one picture of him, I linked it to
his Wikidata item and after the synchronisation he was the first result.
That IS powerful because it shows how the linking to Wikidata of pictures
improves results.

As it is, it has important qualifications over Hay's tool and what Hay has
done is breaking ground. Now we know about the official proof of concept;
it has important advantages;
* it is internationalised and gets localised daily.
* it is already included in Commons so it will/must scale.
* it is supported by the WMF

One key question for me is; do we know its use. Do we know in what language
it is used? When people start using it for real, will we know? Commons has
enormous potential and it is now for us to make this a reality. One
challenge will be to convince me to use it. I do want to be convinced and I
am seeking for the arguments but in the end the proof of the pudding is in
the eating.

Keegan, I understand that as a technical guy you prefer to take it slowly,

For the WMF this is probably the biggest opportunity to remedy much of its
bias against all the "other" languages. I will blog and write about my
experiences because this has the potential to transform us into a truly
multi lingual movement as we now have ties that binds everything together.
Ties that are in and of themselves are useful in any language.
Thanks,
GerardM

On Fri, 29 May 2020 at 18:57, Keegan Peterzell 
wrote:

> On Sun, May 24, 2020 at 8:12 AM Michael Peel  wrote:
>
> >
> > It’s worth remembering that this functionality is built in to Commons,
> > it’s just not as user-friendly. From the example below, if you put
> > "haswbstatement:P180=Q191931” into the Commons searchbox, you will get
> the
> > same results. Thanks to the structured data on commons project+team!
> >
> >
> This is true.
>
> The Structured Data team is working on a media search prototype that is
> similar in function to Hay's tool. It's in the very earliest of early
> stages, that is to say that it works, and the team would like to hear
> feedback.
>
> Have a look over the project page if you're interested to see what a tool
> like Hay's could look like on Commons itself:
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Structured_data/Media_search
>
> Comments welcome on the talk page, I'm slowly spreading the word about
> this.
>
> --
> Keegan Peterzell (he/him)
> Community Relations Specialist
> Wikimedia Foundation
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 


Re: [Wikimedia-l] Giving Commons a bigger public

2020-05-24 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
I have been a professional developer for much of my working life. From what
I know of what Hay has done, I know you are wrong depending on the approach
taken. Building this functionality can be an iterative process, it does not
need to be all singing all dancing from the start. At one time the WMF used
the agile methodology and you can break up a project like this in parts,
functional parts.

* The first part is a hack to replace the current code with
internationalised code and have it localised in Translatewiki.net.
* You then want to build in functionality that measures its use. It also
measures the extend labeling expands in Wikidata because of this tool. In
essence this is not essential.
* As the tool becomes more popular, it follows that the database may need
tuning to allow for its expanded use

* A next phase is for the code to be made into an extension enabling the
native use in MediaWiki projects.  This does not mean Commons, it may be in
any language projects that cares to use it. It is particularly the small
languages (less than 100.000 articles).
* Given that measurements are in place, it then follows that we learn what
it takes to expand the usage of images. Not only but also for our projects.
For a first time the small languages take precedence.. The primary reason
is that for those languages there are few pictures that they find when they
google or bing.
* When there is an expressed demand for bigger languages < 1.000.000
articles, we add these on the basis of a first come, first served basis.
This is to ensure a steady growth path in the usage.
* Once we understand the scaling issues, we can expand to Commons itself
and any and all projects.
* Once we consider sharing freely licensed media files a priority, we can
speed the process up within the limits of what is technically feasible.

At the same time, we keep the standalone function available. It will serve
a subset of our potential public. This will help us understand the pent up
demand for a service like this. When the WMF is truly  "agile" in its
development, it is a business decision what priority it gets. Much of what
I describe has been done by us before; it is not rocket science. The first
phase could be done within a month. Scaling up the usage and integrating it
in existing code and projects may indeed take the best of a year. Again,
that is not so much a technical but much more a business consideration. As
always, technical issues may crop up and they are refactored in an agile
process.
Thanks,
  GerardM

On Sun, 24 May 2020 at 20:36, Michael Peel  wrote:

> Hi Gerard,
>
> I mostly agree with you. However, I disagree with this:
>
> > This proof of concept is largely based on existing WMF functionality so
> it
> > takes very little for the Wikimedia Foundation to adopt the code, do it
> > properly particularly for the Internationalisation.
>
> Turning prototype code into production code is never trivial. When you’re
> writing a prototype, you get to skip all performance and edge case
> concerns, and you don’t need to integrate it into existing code, you’re
> just interested in getting something working. I hope (and expect) that the
> WMF will make improvements to Commons’ multilingual search in the future,
> but it’s definitely not a “very little” amount of work that needs doing,
> it’s a year or more worth of developer time.
>
> Thanks,
> Mike
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 


Re: [Wikimedia-l] Giving Commons a bigger public

2020-05-24 Thread Gerard Meijssen
of users that even
> now are not interested in dealing with such long-term issues of Commons and
> any effort will wait a lot to get a clear feedback.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Il domenica 24 maggio 2020, 15:38:36 CEST, Gerard Meijssen <
> gerard.meijs...@gmail.com> ha scritto:
>
>  Hoi,
> Mike you are absolutely right but you are missing the point that I am
> trying to make. Yes, what is exposed by Hay's SDSEARCH tool is based on all
> the work that was done before and as such it relies absolutely on the work
> that has been done before. Without it, this tool would not be possible.
> This work is key for us to move forward.
>
> What is so vitally important about this proof of concept is that it readily
> opens up Commons depending on a localised user interface. Even when that is
> not available search, it is possible based to search based on the
> availability of labels in a language. This proof of concept dramatically
> shows that nothing more is needed to open up Commons to a multilingual
> public.
>
> This proof of concept is an invitation to adopt this approach and make it
> available in properly internationalised code as part of a multilingual
> Commons user interface. It invites people to participate and with some
> social engineering it the shore that turns the ship in making Commons a
> much more positive place. Why, because making Commons usable even useful is
> what we have not done for all the languages but English. When people are
> happy to use Commons, they are more likely to participate and join its
> community.
>
> So far we could not care less as long as it was used in our own projects.
> The challenge that I present to you is to make Commons *my goto place* for
> illustrations for my blog. When you can convince me, you convince the
> world.
>
> Remember our approach is that of a wiki. It does not have to be perfect, it
> has to empower us to move forward.
> Thanks,
>   GerardM
>
>
>
> On Sun, 24 May 2020 at 15:12, Michael Peel  wrote:
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> > It’s worth remembering that this functionality is built in to Commons,
> > it’s just not as user-friendly. From the example below, if you put
> > "haswbstatement:P180=Q191931” into the Commons searchbox, you will get
> the
> > same results. Thanks to the structured data on commons project+team!
> >
> > Also, around half of the Commons categories now have multilingual labels
> > embedded in them through the Wikidata Infobox, which means that if you do
> > an ordinary search for a phrase in a different language, you should find
> > the correct commons category if it exists. E.g., try searching for
> > “Telescopio Lovell”, or "洛弗尔望远镜". The infobox also has a link at the
> bottom
> > of it that you can click on to search depicts statements for that
> > category’s topic without having to look up the QID first.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Mike
> >
> > > On 24 May 2020, at 10:30, Gerard Meijssen 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Hoi,
> > > Two more localisations became available, one for German and one for
> > > Swedish. I have asked Alolita if she would help us with a localisation
> in
> > > an Indian language. Anthere, would you be so kind and reach out so that
> > we
> > > have a localisation in an African language as well.. (French would also
> > be
> > > good to have :) )
> > >
> > > In the mean time I have linked pictures of the kakapoa to its Wikidata
> > > item, you can search for it in Maori.
> > >
> > > For me the point of this proof of concept is that we already can expose
> > > material in any of our languages. We can make this available and
> promote
> > > the addition of "depicts" statements in Commons and labels in Wikidata.
> > In
> > > a true Wiki way it brings additional functionality to any and all of
> our
> > > users.. It will improve over time.
> > >
> > > When we are to know the extend of its usefulness, we need continuous
> > > statistics (we have them for Reasonator as well, just as an example).
> > > Thanks,
> > >  GerardM
> > >
> > > On Sun, 24 May 2020 at 07:33, Gerard Meijssen <
> gerard.meijs...@gmail.com
> > >
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >> Hoi,
> > >> Florence I totally agree that proper internatonalisation, localisation
> > is
> > >> key. What is key for me is that this already provides an easy and
> > obvious
> > >> search function for mediafiles that have a link to a Wikidata item.
> > Just to
> &

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Giving Commons a bigger public

2020-05-24 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
Mike you are absolutely right but you are missing the point that I am
trying to make. Yes, what is exposed by Hay's SDSEARCH tool is based on all
the work that was done before and as such it relies absolutely on the work
that has been done before. Without it, this tool would not be possible.
This work is key for us to move forward.

What is so vitally important about this proof of concept is that it readily
opens up Commons depending on a localised user interface. Even when that is
not available search, it is possible based to search based on the
availability of labels in a language. This proof of concept dramatically
shows that nothing more is needed to open up Commons to a multilingual
public.

This proof of concept is an invitation to adopt this approach and make it
available in properly internationalised code as part of a multilingual
Commons user interface. It invites people to participate and with some
social engineering it the shore that turns the ship in making Commons a
much more positive place. Why, because making Commons usable even useful is
what we have not done for all the languages but English. When people are
happy to use Commons, they are more likely to participate and join its
community.

So far we could not care less as long as it was used in our own projects.
The challenge that I present to you is to make Commons *my goto place* for
illustrations for my blog. When you can convince me, you convince the world.

Remember our approach is that of a wiki. It does not have to be perfect, it
has to empower us to move forward.
Thanks,
   GerardM



On Sun, 24 May 2020 at 15:12, Michael Peel  wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> It’s worth remembering that this functionality is built in to Commons,
> it’s just not as user-friendly. From the example below, if you put
> "haswbstatement:P180=Q191931” into the Commons searchbox, you will get the
> same results. Thanks to the structured data on commons project+team!
>
> Also, around half of the Commons categories now have multilingual labels
> embedded in them through the Wikidata Infobox, which means that if you do
> an ordinary search for a phrase in a different language, you should find
> the correct commons category if it exists. E.g., try searching for
> “Telescopio Lovell”, or "洛弗尔望远镜". The infobox also has a link at the bottom
> of it that you can click on to search depicts statements for that
> category’s topic without having to look up the QID first.
>
> Thanks,
> Mike
>
> > On 24 May 2020, at 10:30, Gerard Meijssen 
> wrote:
> >
> > Hoi,
> > Two more localisations became available, one for German and one for
> > Swedish. I have asked Alolita if she would help us with a localisation in
> > an Indian language. Anthere, would you be so kind and reach out so that
> we
> > have a localisation in an African language as well.. (French would also
> be
> > good to have :) )
> >
> > In the mean time I have linked pictures of the kakapoa to its Wikidata
> > item, you can search for it in Maori.
> >
> > For me the point of this proof of concept is that we already can expose
> > material in any of our languages. We can make this available and promote
> > the addition of "depicts" statements in Commons and labels in Wikidata.
> In
> > a true Wiki way it brings additional functionality to any and all of our
> > users.. It will improve over time.
> >
> > When we are to know the extend of its usefulness, we need continuous
> > statistics (we have them for Reasonator as well, just as an example).
> > Thanks,
> >   GerardM
> >
> > On Sun, 24 May 2020 at 07:33, Gerard Meijssen  >
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Hoi,
> >> Florence I totally agree that proper internatonalisation, localisation
> is
> >> key. What is key for me is that this already provides an easy and
> obvious
> >> search function for mediafiles that have a link to a Wikidata item.
> Just to
> >> stress the point, this is a wiki, we do not need a fully functional
> search
> >> engine (for all the Commons files); that is what we aspire to that is
> what
> >> we work towards.. That will take years. But with a proper search tool, a
> >> tool that makes it EASY to use Commons, it may fool me into using
> Commons
> >> for my blog.
> >>
> >> To show you that it works, I just looked for "baisikeli
> >> <https://nl.wiktionary.org/wiki/baisikeli#Swahili>" and made a
> screenshot
> >> [1]. The screenshot is with other files showing the evolution of this
> tool
> >> in a Commons category [2]
> >>
> >> Important to notice is that the tool DOES invite you to localise the
> >> labels to

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Giving Commons a bigger public

2020-05-24 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
Two more localisations became available, one for German and one for
Swedish. I have asked Alolita if she would help us with a localisation in
an Indian language. Anthere, would you be so kind and reach out so that we
have a localisation in an African language as well.. (French would also be
good to have :) )

In the mean time I have linked pictures of the kakapoa to its Wikidata
item, you can search for it in Maori.

For me the point of this proof of concept is that we already can expose
material in any of our languages. We can make this available and promote
the addition of "depicts" statements in Commons and labels in Wikidata. In
a true Wiki way it brings additional functionality to any and all of our
users.. It will improve over time.

When we are to know the extend of its usefulness, we need continuous
statistics (we have them for Reasonator as well, just as an example).
Thanks,
   GerardM

On Sun, 24 May 2020 at 07:33, Gerard Meijssen 
wrote:

> Hoi,
> Florence I totally agree that proper internatonalisation, localisation is
> key. What is key for me is that this already provides an easy and obvious
> search function for mediafiles that have a link to a Wikidata item. Just to
> stress the point, this is a wiki, we do not need a fully functional search
> engine (for all the Commons files); that is what we aspire to that is what
> we work towards.. That will take years. But with a proper search tool, a
> tool that makes it EASY to use Commons, it may fool me into using Commons
> for my blog.
>
> To show you that it works, I just looked for "baisikeli
> <https://nl.wiktionary.org/wiki/baisikeli#Swahili>" and made a screenshot
> [1]. The screenshot is with other files showing the evolution of this tool
> in a Commons category [2]
>
> Important to notice is that the tool DOES invite you to localise the
> labels to French, Swahili et al for best results!!
>
> A minor observation, there are all kinds of things that could change in
> the user interface. Key is that this is a prototype. It is showing us how
> we can make Commons work for us.
> Thanks,
>GerardM
>
> [1] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Appelmoes3.png
> [2] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Hay%27s_SDSEARCH
>
> On Sun, 24 May 2020 at 01:21, Florence Devouard 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> Le 24/05/2020 à 00:23, Erik Moeller a écrit :
>> > On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 10:10 AM Gerard Meijssen
>> >  wrote:
>> >
>> >> Hay Kranen created a proof of concept where Commons is searched for
>> >> pictures that (per standard) use a "depicts" statement.
>> > This is a beautiful proof of concept; thank you for sharing it,
>> > Gerard, and thank you, Hay, for developing it. It really illustrates
>> > the power and importance of the Structured Data efforts.
>> >
>> > To pick a different example, imagine that you want to illustrate an
>> > article about the importance of wheelchair accessibility at your
>> > university. You might try a major search engine like Google Images.
>> > Try replacing the word "wheelchair" with translations in other
>> > languages. Note how the result sets are different, and how you may get
>> > a much smaller set of results in languages with a smaller Internet
>> > presence.
>> >
>> > https://www.google.com/search?q=wheelchair=isch (English)
>> > https://www.google.com/search?q=kitimaguru=isch (Swahili, far less
>> > relevant and smaller set)
>> >
>> > In contrast, the use of Wikidata items means that, as long as a label
>> > exists for a given language, you can search in _any_ language and get
>> > the same images:
>> >
>> > https://tools.wmflabs.org/hay/sdsearch/#q=haswbstatement:P180=Q191931
>> >
>> > The fact that the UI of this tool is currently English is an
>> > implementation detail; even with Hay's implementation, you can type in
>> > "kitimaguru" and get the same results as in English.
>>
>>
>> Sorry Erik, but I do not follow you here...
>>
>> For some reasons, it is true for "kitimaguru", but if I search for
>> "lamp" (EN) versus "lampe" (FR), or "key" (English) versus "clé"
>> (French), I really do not get the same results at all and of course, it
>> does not proposes me the same Qs.
>>
>> I love that functionality, do not get me wrong, I am delighted to see it.
>>
>> But except for English speakers (and now Dutch speakers it seems), it
>> can not be used.
>>
>> So wonderful proof of concept. But please... let's have all languages
>&g

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Giving Commons a bigger public

2020-05-23 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
Florence I totally agree that proper internatonalisation, localisation is
key. What is key for me is that this already provides an easy and obvious
search function for mediafiles that have a link to a Wikidata item. Just to
stress the point, this is a wiki, we do not need a fully functional search
engine (for all the Commons files); that is what we aspire to that is what
we work towards.. That will take years. But with a proper search tool, a
tool that makes it EASY to use Commons, it may fool me into using Commons
for my blog.

To show you that it works, I just looked for "baisikeli
<https://nl.wiktionary.org/wiki/baisikeli#Swahili>" and made a screenshot
[1]. The screenshot is with other files showing the evolution of this tool
in a Commons category [2]

Important to notice is that the tool DOES invite you to localise the labels
to French, Swahili et al for best results!!

A minor observation, there are all kinds of things that could change in the
user interface. Key is that this is a prototype. It is showing us how we
can make Commons work for us.
Thanks,
   GerardM

[1] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Appelmoes3.png
[2] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Hay%27s_SDSEARCH

On Sun, 24 May 2020 at 01:21, Florence Devouard  wrote:

>
> Le 24/05/2020 à 00:23, Erik Moeller a écrit :
> > On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 10:10 AM Gerard Meijssen
> >  wrote:
> >
> >> Hay Kranen created a proof of concept where Commons is searched for
> >> pictures that (per standard) use a "depicts" statement.
> > This is a beautiful proof of concept; thank you for sharing it,
> > Gerard, and thank you, Hay, for developing it. It really illustrates
> > the power and importance of the Structured Data efforts.
> >
> > To pick a different example, imagine that you want to illustrate an
> > article about the importance of wheelchair accessibility at your
> > university. You might try a major search engine like Google Images.
> > Try replacing the word "wheelchair" with translations in other
> > languages. Note how the result sets are different, and how you may get
> > a much smaller set of results in languages with a smaller Internet
> > presence.
> >
> > https://www.google.com/search?q=wheelchair=isch (English)
> > https://www.google.com/search?q=kitimaguru=isch (Swahili, far less
> > relevant and smaller set)
> >
> > In contrast, the use of Wikidata items means that, as long as a label
> > exists for a given language, you can search in _any_ language and get
> > the same images:
> >
> > https://tools.wmflabs.org/hay/sdsearch/#q=haswbstatement:P180=Q191931
> >
> > The fact that the UI of this tool is currently English is an
> > implementation detail; even with Hay's implementation, you can type in
> > "kitimaguru" and get the same results as in English.
>
>
> Sorry Erik, but I do not follow you here...
>
> For some reasons, it is true for "kitimaguru", but if I search for
> "lamp" (EN) versus "lampe" (FR), or "key" (English) versus "clé"
> (French), I really do not get the same results at all and of course, it
> does not proposes me the same Qs.
>
> I love that functionality, do not get me wrong, I am delighted to see it.
>
> But except for English speakers (and now Dutch speakers it seems), it
> can not be used.
>
> So wonderful proof of concept. But please... let's have all languages here
> !
>
> Florence
>
>
> >
> > It would be wonderful to see this functionality developed further, and
> > to ultimately make this kind of search functionality central to the
> > user experience for Wikimedia Commons, so that speakers of any
> > language are  given _meaningful_ access to freely reusable media.
> >
> > Warmly,
> >
> > Erik
> >
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 
<mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

[Wikimedia-l] Giving Commons a bigger public

2020-05-22 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
Hay Kranen created a proof of concept where Commons is searched for
pictures that (per standard) use a "depicts" statement.. The search is
limited to existing labels in Wikidata and to the search has as its result
whatever is available in commons..

Use for instance "appelmoes"  and you get six results [1], [2].

At this time you can get a "detail" screen and it provides standard
functions available. The functionality can be prettified. Essential is that
everything will be internationalised /  localised. The other thing is that
I hope is that functionality like this becomes standard Commons
functionality...

On a more philosophical note, we are a WIKI, it follows that we will work
to make more and more pictures searchable in this way and that we get more
and more labels in all of our languages. It is however NOT necessary that
from the start it needs to be perfect. Please do not let perfection be the
enemy of the good. Improvements is what we should aim for and perfection is
what we aspire to.
Thanks,
   GerardM

Oh and again Hay, thank you so much.

[1] https://tools.wmflabs.org/hay/sdsearch/#q=haswbstatement:P180=Q618345
[2] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Appelmoes.png
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 


Re: [Wikimedia-l] Commons

2020-05-18 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
Dear Ziko, your proposal is business as usual. The biggest question we
should ask is not what do we do but WHY do we do it. When we decide that
Open Content is there to be used, it follows that it is a key performance
indicator to know to what extend we serve a public and what public we
have, could have and how we can expand our public.

The current notion that people where we only consider how many people see
images in Wikipedia makes Commons objectives secondary to Wikipedia. We do
not care if people can find pictures in Commons and to be brutal I have
given up, I do really want Commons to serve my needs as a blogger. We do
not know the number of people who download our content, we do not know what
people think of the usability as a resource of freely licensed material. We
only consider Commons at the front end (ingestion) and not at the backend

We should care because THAT is our mission.
Thanks,
   GerardM

On Mon, 18 May 2020 at 11:31, Ziko van Dijk  wrote:

> Hello,
> I would like to support Roland's and other's remarks that Wikimedia Commons
> has some serious problems and needs improvement in many ways. Some of these
> problems are very difficult to overcome, such as a better, multilingual
> search because we don't have all the necessary meta data.
> Other problems could be dealt with in a short time. For example, the main
> page (or main pages, in the different languages) has too many items and
> links. General and less general links; links to content by topic; links to
> other Wikimedia wikis, links to mainpages in other languages. Some of this
> is repeated in the left side bar. All together, also with general wiki
> function links - I counted 291 links or things to click on!
>
> My ideal would be a clean page
> * with a short explanation what the site is or does,
> * and then three, four or five big items to click on: for example, "search
> content", "contribute content", "learn more".
> Is it a realistic dream of me that we would see such a clean-up within the
> next 5 or 50 years?
> Kind regards
> Ziko
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Am So., 17. Mai 2020 um 17:25 Uhr schrieb Alessandro Marchetti via
> Wikimedia-l :
>
> >  "there are way less people maintaining it than it is needed" is naif
> > summary of what is going on. IMHO. There are people maintaining it in a
> way
> > that is counterproductive. You can always create an efficient workflow,
> if
> > you want it.
> >
> > We don't need people that delete an image of a statue in the USA because
> > of no:fop even if it is a small size in a big composition and than keep
> the
> > other ones in the category that are in any case used on enwikipedia. We
> > don't need people copying and pasting quickly motivations without even
> > reading them confusing countries or scenarios, as it happened (they
> almost
> > never apologize, of course, because they are so busy). We don't need
> people
> > that when a deletion procedure is rejected keep insisting looking at the
> > contribution of an user stressing them until they find something. We
> don't
> > need people deleting low-resolution files that were few months short form
> > entering the public domain, when in the same time they could have deleted
> > 100 times more of useless images. We don't need people arguing to delete
> > ancient images that couldn't be proved "not to be recent" against good
> > faith.  We don't need people starting deletion procedure if an image is
> on
> > line instead of simply asking the uploader.
> >
> > However, it's a fact that some active members of the community created
> > over the years a system where such people are encouraged to act in such a
> > rigid way and probably even believe that their behaviour is necessary.
> > Given these circumstances, it is not the moral duty of the silent
> majority
> > of users to deal with the consequences of such behaviour. They can go on
> > and try to delete everything the way they do and they will also deal with
> > the huge amount of backlog they create wasting the time of users. It's
> only
> > fair to me that whoever keep encouraging such unefficient workflow should
> > be the one to clean the mess.
> > A.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Il domenica 17 maggio 2020, 12:15:30 CEST, Yaroslav Blanter <
> > ymb...@gmail.com> ha scritto:
> >
> >  Concerning using Commons as a photo hosting, I have written a blog post
> > earlier this year:
> >
> >
> >
> https://discuss-space.wmflabs.org/t/wikimedia-commons-as-private-photo-hosting/2866
> >
> > However, I can not see how it can become anything close to social media,
> > nor do I think it should be. It already has a lot of garbage, and there
> are
> > way less people maintaining it than it is needed. That it is one of the
> > nastiest communities among all Wikimedia projects, with people being
> > allowed to do things for which they would become instantly long-term
> > blocked on other projects, does not help either
> >
> > Best
> > Yaroslav
> >
> > On Sun, May 17, 2020 at 10:32 AM Tito 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Commons

2020-05-17 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
Just consider this, there are still many pictures in the English Wikipedia
that could be in Commons because of its license and regularly there are
pictures in Commons that are deleted because there license is not
compatible with Commons. At Commons a revolution is taking place because
the basic building blocks for it to become truly useful are in place. We
are all invited to include "depicts" statements effectively linking them to
Wikidata, to multilinguality, and make images findable.

It is relatively straightforward to replace license information with
wikidata and use it for a purpose. There is one tiny proviso; it means that
English Wikipedia material has to be dealt with in the same way. Preferably
in the same database. It then follows that all the true freely licensed
material is part of Commons and its policies, for the rest there are the
exemptions, the material that is allowed for use in English Wikipedia is
part of English Wikipedia and its policies. When you then look for material
to use in whatever project, the license limits what you can use, what you
find. For material that we want to include that has an incompatible
license, we find that we cannot use it in our projects and we may choose if
and how we expose it to the world.

Effectively what fits the Commons policies is usable at all our projects,
the other stuff relies on the license involved. An example, an original
that is reduced in size to fit the "fair use" criteria has a place but is
not available. Obvious exceptions the care takers of our material.

The biggest benefit I see is that we bring together what is divided and
bring options to the pruning process of Commons that enable it to recognise
stuff that has a place in "fair use" situations. It opens up our content
linguistically and it will definitely make us more inclusively for a world
beyond the two U-s.
Thanks,
  GerardM

On Sun, 17 May 2020 at 17:25, Alessandro Marchetti via Wikimedia-l <
wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> wrote:

>  "there are way less people maintaining it than it is needed" is naif
> summary of what is going on. IMHO. There are people maintaining it in a way
> that is counterproductive. You can always create an efficient workflow, if
> you want it.
>
> We don't need people that delete an image of a statue in the USA because
> of no:fop even if it is a small size in a big composition and than keep the
> other ones in the category that are in any case used on enwikipedia. We
> don't need people copying and pasting quickly motivations without even
> reading them confusing countries or scenarios, as it happened (they almost
> never apologize, of course, because they are so busy). We don't need people
> that when a deletion procedure is rejected keep insisting looking at the
> contribution of an user stressing them until they find something. We don't
> need people deleting low-resolution files that were few months short form
> entering the public domain, when in the same time they could have deleted
> 100 times more of useless images. We don't need people arguing to delete
> ancient images that couldn't be proved "not to be recent" against good
> faith.  We don't need people starting deletion procedure if an image is on
> line instead of simply asking the uploader.
>
> However, it's a fact that some active members of the community created
> over the years a system where such people are encouraged to act in such a
> rigid way and probably even believe that their behaviour is necessary.
> Given these circumstances, it is not the moral duty of the silent majority
> of users to deal with the consequences of such behaviour. They can go on
> and try to delete everything the way they do and they will also deal with
> the huge amount of backlog they create wasting the time of users. It's only
> fair to me that whoever keep encouraging such unefficient workflow should
> be the one to clean the mess.
> A.
>
>
>
>
>Il domenica 17 maggio 2020, 12:15:30 CEST, Yaroslav Blanter <
> ymb...@gmail.com> ha scritto:
>
>  Concerning using Commons as a photo hosting, I have written a blog post
> earlier this year:
>
>
> https://discuss-space.wmflabs.org/t/wikimedia-commons-as-private-photo-hosting/2866
>
> However, I can not see how it can become anything close to social media,
> nor do I think it should be. It already has a lot of garbage, and there are
> way less people maintaining it than it is needed. That it is one of the
> nastiest communities among all Wikimedia projects, with people being
> allowed to do things for which they would become instantly long-term
> blocked on other projects, does not help either
>
> Best
> Yaroslav
>
> On Sun, May 17, 2020 at 10:32 AM Tito Dutta  wrote:
>
> > This discussion, although started with a question "why don't people
> > contribute to Wikimedia Commons, now after actually the discussion above,
> > covers more topics. A few notes, observations and comments:
> > 1) I remember a major discussion took place somewhere on Wikimedia

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Annoying ads

2020-05-05 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
To me this is similar to the argument why we do not really raise funds in
some countries that "are poor". Some people are poor, certainly, but many
others are not. The argument that we can afford has a relation to our
aspirations, ambitions what can we do better, more particularly in the
countries where people are stuck in their homes. If anything this is the
time to adapt to changing circumstances. People are at home, there is this
"captive audience" with many people that are helped mentally when they have
something worthwhile to do.

We can reach out for readers, editors and donors.
Thanks,
   GerardM


On Tue, 5 May 2020 at 14:58, WereSpielChequers 
wrote:

> Given the large reserves that the WMF carries, and the savings from
> cancelling events such as Wikimania 2020, I would have thought that the WMF
> was one organisation that could afford to pause its fundraising for a few
> months. At least in countries where the economy is in freefall.
>
> In a few months time lots of people will still be in a financial mess. But
> the large number of people who are currently going to be worried about
> their financial future will hopefully be divided into those who have kept
> their jobs. or got new ones and those who were right to be worried.
> Hopefully some of those who come through this financially OK will be in a
> position to donate.
>
> WSC
>
> On Tue, 5 May 2020 at 11:25, 
> wrote:
>
> > Send Wikimedia-l mailing list submissions to
> > wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> >
> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> > wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org
> >
> > You can reach the person managing the list at
> > wikimedia-l-ow...@lists.wikimedia.org
> >
> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > than "Re: Contents of Wikimedia-l digest..."
> >
> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> >1. Annoying ads (John Erling Blad)
> >2. Re: Annoying ads (Benjamin Ikuta)
> >3. Re: Annoying ads (Robert Fernandez)
> >4. Re: Annoying ads (Pierre-Yves Beaudouin)
> >5. Re: Annoying ads (Nick Wilson (Quiddity))
> >6. Re: Annoying ads (Samuel Klein)
> >7. Re: Annoying ads (Paulo Santos Perneta)
> >8. Re: Annoying ads (Paulo Santos Perneta)
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 16:55:50 +0200
> > From: John Erling Blad 
> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List 
> > Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Annoying ads
> > Message-ID:
> >  > 5ggwunkrfg6ejjsn6sb1rbf1h_fnyphpd_wjr5ot...@mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> >
> > Often I surf Wikipedia without being logged in, and so I did right now. I
> > got the usual banners, but this time they popped up repeatedly in several
> > locations. This quickly gets extremely annoying, and I find it unwise.
> > Create one banner, and stick with that. Several banners are simply way
> over
> > the top.
> >
> > /jeblad
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > *
> >
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 


Re: [Wikimedia-l] Brand Project: Who are we as a movement?

2020-04-15 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
What you prove is that we maintain a static artifact that does improve with
time. What you prove with your reply is that you do not care for the
mission, for the quality of Wikipedia but only care to maintain a status
quo that is no longer good enough.
Thanks,
 GerardM

On Wed, 15 Apr 2020 at 23:16, Todd Allen  wrote:

> There certainly is a lot to reflect on, isn't there?
>
> Maybe you can do some reflecting on the fact that those "long-time
> contributors" were, in many cases, working on Wikipedia before most people
> had ever even heard of it (when I first started working on it, "What's
> Wikipedia?" would be a question I was often asked if I'd mention it;
> haven't heard that for a while though), and have been working to build,
> maintain, and improve it ever since. So maybe there's a reason we care a
> great deal about it.
>
> And maybe there's a good reason to listen to the people who literally built
> the thing, made it into what it is, and still day to day keep it going.
> Maybe we know what we're doing. I think we rather proved it.
>
> Todd
>
> On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 2:00 PM Gerard Meijssen  >
> wrote:
>
> > Hoi,
> > When I read something like this, it takes me aback. Yes, people may have
> an
> > opinion, they may even express it and they even may be wrong. Who cares
> > really. There is enough to dislike in branding, we are not cattle. From a
> > marketing perspective there may be a point. The point would be to bring
> all
> > that we do together, bring it together so that what it is we are and what
> > is we do better understood by an audience, an audience that we want to
> > entice to like us enough to become part of our Wikimedia movement.
> >
> > The problem is that the "long time contributors" don't like change. They
> > have invested so much in whatever it is they think makes our projects
> work
> > that they do not see the forest from the trees. They forget what our
> > primary aim, is and fail to appreciate that all conventions are there to
> > support the aim of sharing in the sum of all knowledge. This week
> Wikipedia
> > administrators killed off the ListeriaBot because it defied a
> convention. A
> > convention that they could not explain to me does harm to our public. A
> > convention that exists because it was conceded to English Wikipedia that
> > they could have non free images exclusive to its project. When challenged
> > that they do not care about Wikipedia's quality, that manually maintained
> > lists average out to be not as well maintained as Listeria list there was
> > silence. They did not care because it did not address their need that
> their
> > convention had to prevail.
> >
> > "Long time contributors", administrators are the ones expecting others to
> > share their sentiment about everything what is bad. I don't. Katherine
> > Maher brought an end to a period of stagnation. My impression is that at
> > the Wikimedia Foundation things look up. I love it that the WMF wants to
> > expand and I totally agree that English Wikipedia, its best known
> product,
> > the brand that is known by many is exactly what is not bringing us
> > together.
> >
> > I prefer people like Mackenzie Lemieux or Jess Wade any time over the
> "long
> > time contributors".. PS with a blog going back 15 years, with 2,606,298
> > edits I qualify as a long time contributor..
> >
> > So if your opinions are as good as the reflections you have on the
> quality
> > of Wikipedia, I do not care about your opinions. By my calculations there
> > is on average error rate of 4% in lists because of false friends. Magnus
> > blogged how manually maintained list are anything but well maintained
> > lists. The key point of branding in the marketing sense is that it is to
> > bring out the best of what is on offer.
> >
> > The basis of what we have on offer is in what we aim to achieve and, for
> me
> > our aim is to share in the sum of the knowledge that is available to us.
> > Everything that is in its way of achieving this needs reflection and imho
> > there is a lot to reflect.
> > Thanks,
> >   GerardM
> >
> > On Wed, 15 Apr 2020 at 18:59, MZMcBride  wrote:
> >
> > > David Gerard wrote:
> > > >
> https://foundation.wikimedia.org/wiki/Minutes/2018-11-9,10,11#Branding
> > > >
> > > >So this has been dictated from above - the "community consultation" is
> > > >window dressing for a decision that's long been made.
> > > >
> > > >Hence the nonsensical claims

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Brand Project: Who are we as a movement?

2020-04-15 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
When I read something like this, it takes me aback. Yes, people may have an
opinion, they may even express it and they even may be wrong. Who cares
really. There is enough to dislike in branding, we are not cattle. From a
marketing perspective there may be a point. The point would be to bring all
that we do together, bring it together so that what it is we are and what
is we do better understood by an audience, an audience that we want to
entice to like us enough to become part of our Wikimedia movement.

The problem is that the "long time contributors" don't like change. They
have invested so much in whatever it is they think makes our projects work
that they do not see the forest from the trees. They forget what our
primary aim, is and fail to appreciate that all conventions are there to
support the aim of sharing in the sum of all knowledge. This week Wikipedia
administrators killed off the ListeriaBot because it defied a convention. A
convention that they could not explain to me does harm to our public. A
convention that exists because it was conceded to English Wikipedia that
they could have non free images exclusive to its project. When challenged
that they do not care about Wikipedia's quality, that manually maintained
lists average out to be not as well maintained as Listeria list there was
silence. They did not care because it did not address their need that their
convention had to prevail.

"Long time contributors", administrators are the ones expecting others to
share their sentiment about everything what is bad. I don't. Katherine
Maher brought an end to a period of stagnation. My impression is that at
the Wikimedia Foundation things look up. I love it that the WMF wants to
expand and I totally agree that English Wikipedia, its best known product,
the brand that is known by many is exactly what is not bringing us
together.

I prefer people like Mackenzie Lemieux or Jess Wade any time over the "long
time contributors".. PS with a blog going back 15 years, with 2,606,298
edits I qualify as a long time contributor..

So if your opinions are as good as the reflections you have on the quality
of Wikipedia, I do not care about your opinions. By my calculations there
is on average error rate of 4% in lists because of false friends. Magnus
blogged how manually maintained list are anything but well maintained
lists. The key point of branding in the marketing sense is that it is to
bring out the best of what is on offer.

The basis of what we have on offer is in what we aim to achieve and, for me
our aim is to share in the sum of the knowledge that is available to us.
Everything that is in its way of achieving this needs reflection and imho
there is a lot to reflect.
Thanks,
  GerardM

On Wed, 15 Apr 2020 at 18:59, MZMcBride  wrote:

> David Gerard wrote:
> >https://foundation.wikimedia.org/wiki/Minutes/2018-11-9,10,11#Branding
> >
> >So this has been dictated from above - the "community consultation" is
> >window dressing for a decision that's long been made.
> >
> >Hence the nonsensical claims of massive community support by fiddling
> >the numbers, employing literal wiki spammers to do the consulting,
> >etc.
>
> Wikimedia Foundation Inc. is bad. There are dozens of examples
> illustrating why this is true, but this forcible rebranding is a
> particularly good demonstration of the rot.
>
> The people most directly responsible here are Katherine Maher and Heather
> Walls. They're both subscribed to this mailing list, they both understand
> that this decision would upset long-time contributors, and they both
> simply decided to ignore any complaints in favor of attempting to siphon
> more money from donors and force their "vision" on the broader movement.
> You don't see either of them defending themselves or their actions here
> for a reason. They didn't both forget how e-mail works or how the wikis
> work, they've intentionally chosen to plug their ears and march forward.
>
> What's more offensive, in my opinion, than this forcible rebranding effort
> is that they've spent and will continue to spend hundreds of thousands of
> dollars on it. It would be bad enough to make this unilateral decision and
> implement it with the existing bloated staff, but instead they've hired
> agencies and consultants and wasted additional hundreds of thousands of
> dollars in donor money on this sham exercise.
>
> But don't worry, highly deceptive advertising is back on the projects, in
> mid-April, to ensure continued funding of this and other charades.
>
> MZMcBride
>
>
>
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
___

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Brand Project: Who are we as a movement?

2020-03-25 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
The fact that it is considered major enough to address how Snøhetta became
blocked on English Wikipedia is ok. What is also does is confirm the bias
towards English Wikipedia. I am pretty sure that in the briefing of
Snøhetta personnel it was NOT mentioned that other projects may have
different policies, they substantially differ.

For me this whole process seems like a traintrack leading to a train wreck.
Wikipedia is not what *we *do, it is the brand Wikimedia is best known for.
Remember bias is not experienced and appreciated by the people who are
associated with what is dominant. I stated before how Wikipedia bias has
prevented us to move forward with our other "brands" and projects. I would
like some response on that.
Thanks,
GeradM

On Thu, 26 Mar 2020 at 00:16, Samir Elsharbaty 
wrote:

> Hi everyone,
>
> The Brand Project Team felt it was important to address the concerns and
> questions around Snøhetta and the English Wikipedia, and have now added an
> FAQ about it. [1] Please refer there for the full details about the block
> and what is being done. The project team is in the process of updating the
> project materials, including the FAQ, so feel free to add those pages to
> your watchlist to stay up to date on the latest information.
>
>
> Best,
>
> Samir
>
> [1] https://w.wiki/LEF
>
> Samir Elsharbaty (he/him)
>
> Community Brand and Marketing coordinator
>
> Wikimedia Foundation 
>
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 24, 2020 at 4:43 AM Gnangarra  wrote:
>
> > This does have feeling of a company creating a financial relationship
> with
> > the Foundation as way to bypass or backdoor a community ban thats been
> > reviewed already.   Over the years I've worked with many users who been
> > blocked and help them become productive contributors but before they
> start
> > making recommendation or decisions about who we are there needs to be
> > something done to get them back to good standing with the community first
> > untiil thats taken place.It's like asking the fox to rebuild the hen
> > house,  I just dont see how I could support anything they recommend.
> >
> > After the dollars, and t=volunteer time that has been pumped into the
> 2030
> > strategy shouldnt we already know who we are, as it is that should have
> > been the key starting point for a strategy process. Its comprehensible
> not
> > to have known or explored that before deciding where, how, why we will be
> > doing anything for the next 10 years.
> >
> > On Tue, 24 Mar 2020 at 03:20, David Gerard  wrote:
> >
> > > Particularly as they've demonstrated by their actions an unwillingness
> > > to work with Wikipedia properly:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Archive318#Review_of_User:Sn%C3%B8hettaAS_block_please
> > >
> > >
> > > - d.
> > >
> > > On Sat, 14 Mar 2020 at 04:34, Peter Southwood
> > >  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I would agree with this in principle. From what I have seen so far,
> it
> > > looks like either Snøhetta have not done their homework on how we
> > operate,
> > > or they have the arrogance of PR agencies, don't care, and plan to spin
> > > their way through with smoke and mirrors, flashy pages with lots of
> buzz,
> > > little content and all the dialogue they can't avoid. Maybe I am wrong,
> > and
> > > they have just been badly briefed. Who can tell from the outside? Block
> > > evasion does not bode well for their understanding of the community.
> > > > Cheers,
> > > > Peter
> > > >
> > > > -Original Message-
> > > > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org]
> On
> > > Behalf Of Pine W
> > > > Sent: Friday, March 13, 2020 8:13 PM
> > > > To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> > > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Brand Project: Who are we as a movement?
> > > >
> > > > Hello,
> > > >
> > > > First, a disclaimer that these comments aren't directed personally at
> > > > you, Essie.
> > > >
> > > > Even if money was unlimited, I thought that Snøhetta deserved the
> > > > community's trust, and I felt that WMF was a good steward of
> resources
> > > > (all of which are questionable), I don't think that this project is a
> > > > good idea. Wikidata is an increasingly important component of the
> > > > Wikiverse, and there are a some problems with WMF rebranding itself
> as
> > > > the Wikipedia Foundation including the risk to the communities and
> > > > affiliates from WMF's political adventures, governance problems, and
> > > > occasional high profile clashes with the community. I don't think
> that
> > > > the costs or the risks here make sense, I wouldn't involve Snøhetta
> > > > given its apparent block evasion on English Wikipedia, and I've been
> > > > unimpressed with WMF's handling of this process during the past few
> > > > months.
> > > >
> > > > I am fine with discussions about branding, but not with this program
> > > > in its current form.
> > > >
> > > > Given the choice, I would freeze this 

[Wikimedia-l] The Corona dead

2020-03-22 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
Obviously with a pandemic people die including notable people. As I am used
to do, I have a query, a Listeria list that will update the latest
information based on what we know in Wikidata.

Given that it is not restricted to any one Wikipedia, we will know the
notable dead from any and all Wikipedias.

It is easy enough to have this list on your Wikipedia..
Thanks,
   GerardM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:GerardM/The_Corona_dead
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 


Re: [Wikimedia-l] Brand Project: Who are we as a movement?

2020-03-15 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
I would rather answer a different question: What would it take for us to
share the sum of all knowledge available to us to any and all people in any
and all languages they can read.

The benefit of such a marketing approach and not an antagonistic approach
is that English Wikipedia may do what it does, it may even fit in with what
is shown to work. When we are to share the sum of all the knowledge
available to us, we seek out where this information is and, how we open it
up best to our public. Let me be clear, so far the English Wikipedia has
been my go to project to liberate information to Wikidata. Once it it
there, it becomes easier to provide proper disambiguation and prevent false
friends to pop up later. Maintenance is easier; you do it only once for any
and all our projects.

We have come a long way in getting to the point where Commons is truly
multilingual.. My favourite example is "appelmoes" [1]. What we now really
need is have marketeers to opening Commons up to a public. We should talk
to Google and seek synergy, Commons is valuable when people are to use
legal material for illustration. They have to find it first.

The same goes for Wikisource, what is available for use to a public. How do
we leverage what we have and find all this hard work a public.

We do need research. We do need marketing research and we need a marketing
approach to getting the sum of the knowledge that we have to a public. I do
not want to argue the rights and wrongs of English Wikipedia. I trust them
to appreciate that they are part of the Wikimedia mission to get the public
well informed and provide our information with a neural point of view.
Never mind where this information is or in what language.
Thanks,
   GerardM



[1]
https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch=haswbstatement%3AP180%3DQ618345=1=1=1=1=1=1

On Sun, 15 Mar 2020 at 16:48, Peter Southwood 
wrote:

> The question then is whether it is the community of English Wikipedia
> exerting this influence, or WMF failing to allocate resources fairly, and
> if so, why? Is it just that the massive internet presence of English
> Wikipedia exerts an irresistible gravitational attraction on the resources
> like a black hole?
> Cheers,
> Peter
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On
> Behalf Of Aron Demian
> Sent: 15 March 2020 12:25
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Brand Project: Who are we as a movement?
>
> My 2 cents: Imho the pressure from English Wikipedia on other projects of
> the movement is very realistic in many kinds of matters, that I've
> experienced myself too. Other projects are not independent socially or
> culturally, the rules, practices, expectations and editorial behaviour is
> strongly related to that on enwp with all its positive *and* negative
> benefits. Often the negative benefits seem to outweigh the positive,
> unfortunately.
>
> Aron
>
> On Sun, 15 Mar 2020 at 11:17, Peter Southwood <
> peter.southw...@telkomsa.net>
> wrote:
>
> > It is grossly unrealistic to blame English Wikipedia and its editing
> > community for what you appear to consider the shortcomings of other
> > Wikipedias.
>
> En: does not require or pressurise other projects to comply with its
> > editorial standards, which are those developed by en:WP, and for en:WP.
> > Other projects are free to set and use their own standards for content,
> > within the general WMF terms of use, and generally do. If they choose to
> > emulate en:WP that is their prerogative.
> > If you think that Cebuan Wikipedia does a better job of informing on the
> > subject matter it covers than other projects, and would like to convince
> > other projects that this is a realistic and rational opinion, and that
> they
> > should follow that example, you are free to produce documentary evidence
> > from experts that this is the case, and present it to the editing
> > communities of those projects for consideration.
> > If Commons are exceeding their remit by refusing to host material that is
> > not used on en:WP, that is not the policy or the fault of the en:WP
> > community who have no authority over Commons.
> > As a general rule, when discussing a topic where there is scope for
> > confusion, there is less likely for confusion to occur when you are
> > sufficiently specific when referring to the ambiguous entities.
> > Cheers,
> > Peter
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On
> > Behalf Of Gerard Meijssen
> > Sent: 15 March 2020 08:37
> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Brand Project: Who are we as a movement?

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Brand Project: Who are we as a movement?

2020-03-15 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
Back your pardon. I do not blame the English Wikipedia for the
shortcomings of other Wikipedias. It does a reasonable job at informing an
English reading public. The point that I make is that we do not consider
how the bias towards English Wikipedia prevents us from reaching out and
sharing in the sum of all knowledge.

There is documentation that Cebuan Wikipedia articles are well presented
and provide a more complete coverage of the knowledge domains it covers.
Also please remember that all US places were added to English Wikipedia by
bot.

When I document bias, it is for you to understand that this bias exists. I
stopped writing in English Wikipedia because the American perspective was
more relevant that an international perspective.

At stake in this thread is making Wikipedia a central brand. I indicated
earlier that those living the English Wikipedia reality are not aware of
the negative effects of its bias. In effect you tell me to do something
about it. Well, I have been blogging about Wikimedia for the last 15 years
[1] and I learned that documentation may be relevant but it is unlikely to
make people see what is in front of them.
Thanks,
  GerardM

[1] https://ultimategerardm.blogspot.com/

On Sun, 15 Mar 2020 at 11:16, Peter Southwood 
wrote:

> It is grossly unrealistic to blame English Wikipedia and its editing
> community for what you appear to consider the shortcomings of other
> Wikipedias. En: does not require or pressurise other projects to comply
> with its editorial standards, which are those developed by en:WP, and for
> en:WP. Other projects are free to set and use their own standards for
> content, within the general WMF terms of use, and generally do. If they
> choose to emulate en:WP that is their prerogative.
> If you think that Cebuan Wikipedia does a better job of informing on the
> subject matter it covers than other projects, and would like to convince
> other projects that this is a realistic and rational opinion, and that they
> should follow that example, you are free to produce documentary evidence
> from experts that this is the case, and present it to the editing
> communities of those projects for consideration.
> If Commons are exceeding their remit by refusing to host material that is
> not used on en:WP, that is not the policy or the fault of the en:WP
> community who have no authority over Commons.
> As a general rule, when discussing a topic where there is scope for
> confusion, there is less likely for confusion to occur when you are
> sufficiently specific when referring to the ambiguous entities.
> Cheers,
> Peter
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On
> Behalf Of Gerard Meijssen
> Sent: 15 March 2020 08:37
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Brand Project: Who are we as a movement?
>
> Hoi,
> By making the point that there is no Wikipedia AND that almost universally
> but particularly people who buy into English Wikipedia consider Wikipedia
> English Wikipedia, I expected that this is understood. I then address
> English Wikipedia specifically because it is its conventions that prevent
> the sum of all our knowledge to be shared.
>
> Just to make that point specific, Cebuan Wikipedia does a better job
> informing on the total of the subject matters it covers, it is a project of
> a father who wants his children to have access to knowledge in their
> maternal language. From a Wiki point of view he deserves praise and
> gratitude in stead he gets scorn because it is against English Wikipedia
> conventions. Furthermore the approach of using data to bring knowledge in
> other languages is frustrated from within WMF.  We could do a better job, a
> job that will work for any language but it is actively discouraged. The
> result is that we do NOT share in the sum of all knowledge, not even the
> knowledge that is available to us. In other words, English Wikipedia
> conventions prevent us from working towards our stated goal.
> Thanks,
>GerardM
>
> On Sun, 15 Mar 2020 at 06:19, Peter Southwood <
> peter.southw...@telkomsa.net>
> wrote:
>
> > Gerard, You start off by correctly specifying that Wikipedia is about 300
> > projects and make several good points about how people confuse Wikipedia
> > with English Wikipedia, how this bias adversely affects various other
> > projects, and then claim that "Wikipedia" is "universally understood to
> be
> > highly toxic".  Are you referring to all 300 odd projects, or are you
> using
> > the generic term for the specific project in the way you previously
> > objected to? Something else that is not obvious?
> > Cheers,
> > Peter
> >
> > -Original Message-
&

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Brand Project: Who are we as a movement?

2020-03-15 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
By making the point that there is no Wikipedia AND that almost universally
but particularly people who buy into English Wikipedia consider Wikipedia
English Wikipedia, I expected that this is understood. I then address
English Wikipedia specifically because it is its conventions that prevent
the sum of all our knowledge to be shared.

Just to make that point specific, Cebuan Wikipedia does a better job
informing on the total of the subject matters it covers, it is a project of
a father who wants his children to have access to knowledge in their
maternal language. From a Wiki point of view he deserves praise and
gratitude in stead he gets scorn because it is against English Wikipedia
conventions. Furthermore the approach of using data to bring knowledge in
other languages is frustrated from within WMF.  We could do a better job, a
job that will work for any language but it is actively discouraged. The
result is that we do NOT share in the sum of all knowledge, not even the
knowledge that is available to us. In other words, English Wikipedia
conventions prevent us from working towards our stated goal.
Thanks,
   GerardM

On Sun, 15 Mar 2020 at 06:19, Peter Southwood 
wrote:

> Gerard, You start off by correctly specifying that Wikipedia is about 300
> projects and make several good points about how people confuse Wikipedia
> with English Wikipedia, how this bias adversely affects various other
> projects, and then claim that "Wikipedia" is "universally understood to be
> highly toxic".  Are you referring to all 300 odd projects, or are you using
> the generic term for the specific project in the way you previously
> objected to? Something else that is not obvious?
> Cheers,
> Peter
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On
> Behalf Of Gerard Meijssen
> Sent: Saturday, March 14, 2020 2:12 PM
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Brand Project: Who are we as a movement?
>
> Hoi,
> Essie, the work done by Snøhetta centres on the notion of Wikipedia as a
> unifying brand. The problem is that Wikipedia on its own is 300 projects
> and that for many, if not most people English Wikipedia *is *Wikipedia.
>
> When we are all to be Wikipedia we will all suffer from the bias that
> English Wikipedia brings us. The problem with bias is that the negative
> effects are not felt, considered by those people who self identify with
> English Wikipedia.
>
> * Research centres on English Wikipedia, when research is done for projects
> other than English Wikipedia, it is hard to get research published
> * New functionality is almost always written for the English Wikipedia, the
> notion of the "other languages" is often not considered in the architecture
> * It is assumed that functionality works for projects other than Wikipedia,
> specific functionality is hardly ever developed
> * In OTRS, the notions of notability are hard coded for English notability.
> Consequently many pictures have been removed that were explicitly requested
> for use with Wikidata
> * there has been no marketing for other Wikimedia products - products. Many
> Wikisource books are available in final form. We do not serve a purpose
> because we do not seek an audience for them
> * even though internationalisation and localisation for MediaWiki is really
> good, we do not consider how we can make use of data in other languages.
>
> It is universally understood that Wikipedia is highly toxic and it may be
> that for external marketing Wikipedia makes sense. Internally I will
> welcome a unified message only once English Wikipedia accepts that its
> consensus is not considered as "Wikipedia" consensus.. Our aim is to share
> in the sum of all knowledge and it is not only in English and it is not
> what English Wikipedia deems notable.
> Thanks,
>GerardM
>
> On Fri, 13 Mar 2020 at 18:33, Essie Zar  wrote:
>
> > Hello Everyone,
> >
> > There are some new updates and opportunities to engage with the Brand
> > project. Thank you to Lodewijk for bringing some attention to a few of
> > these opportunities. We were actively drafting this update for this group
> > when your email went out.
> >
> > As Zack indicated in September,[1] we have been regularly discussing with
> > the members of the brand network (which people can still join )[2] ideas
> > around an evolved brand system with "Wikipedia" as a center point. To
> > assist in this evolution of the movement brand, we chose to partner with
> > Snøhetta,[3] an internationally renowned design firm known for working on
> > complex and multi-stakeholder projects like the modern Library of
> > Alexandria (Bibliotheca Alexandri

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Brand Project: Who are we as a movement?

2020-03-14 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
Essie, the work done by Snøhetta centres on the notion of Wikipedia as a
unifying brand. The problem is that Wikipedia on its own is 300 projects
and that for many, if not most people English Wikipedia *is *Wikipedia.

When we are all to be Wikipedia we will all suffer from the bias that
English Wikipedia brings us. The problem with bias is that the negative
effects are not felt, considered by those people who self identify with
English Wikipedia.

* Research centres on English Wikipedia, when research is done for projects
other than English Wikipedia, it is hard to get research published
* New functionality is almost always written for the English Wikipedia, the
notion of the "other languages" is often not considered in the architecture
* It is assumed that functionality works for projects other than Wikipedia,
specific functionality is hardly ever developed
* In OTRS, the notions of notability are hard coded for English notability.
Consequently many pictures have been removed that were explicitly requested
for use with Wikidata
* there has been no marketing for other Wikimedia products - products. Many
Wikisource books are available in final form. We do not serve a purpose
because we do not seek an audience for them
* even though internationalisation and localisation for MediaWiki is really
good, we do not consider how we can make use of data in other languages.

It is universally understood that Wikipedia is highly toxic and it may be
that for external marketing Wikipedia makes sense. Internally I will
welcome a unified message only once English Wikipedia accepts that its
consensus is not considered as "Wikipedia" consensus.. Our aim is to share
in the sum of all knowledge and it is not only in English and it is not
what English Wikipedia deems notable.
Thanks,
   GerardM

On Fri, 13 Mar 2020 at 18:33, Essie Zar  wrote:

> Hello Everyone,
>
> There are some new updates and opportunities to engage with the Brand
> project. Thank you to Lodewijk for bringing some attention to a few of
> these opportunities. We were actively drafting this update for this group
> when your email went out.
>
> As Zack indicated in September,[1] we have been regularly discussing with
> the members of the brand network (which people can still join )[2] ideas
> around an evolved brand system with "Wikipedia" as a center point. To
> assist in this evolution of the movement brand, we chose to partner with
> Snøhetta,[3] an internationally renowned design firm known for working on
> complex and multi-stakeholder projects like the modern Library of
> Alexandria (Bibliotheca Alexandrina) and the 9/11 Memorial in New York
> City. Snøhetta has been tasked with figuring out precisely what this
> improved brand system will look like. They will release a proposed naming
> convention for movement-wide feedback in April, and a proposed design for
> movement-wide feedback in May. [4] The result of this process will be a new
> branding system that will be opt-in for affiliates.
>
> In order to have enough knowledge and context to arrive at these proposals,
> Snøhetta is reviewing feedback from the many points at which it has already
> been given, and has created a process with built-in community involvement.
> The
> process thus far has included workshops in Norway, India and online with 97
> volunteers from the brand network (movement affiliates, volunteers,
> foundation staff, and board members) reflecting 41 nations. At the
> workshops, community participants were asked to break into small groups to
> answer the question "Who are we?". Through these workshops, groups
> developed rich concepts* that they think best represent who we are as a
> movement.
>
> Now, we would like to invite you to review the 23 concepts that came out of
> the community workshops by “liking” and providing feedback on the one(s)
> you think best represent the Wikimedia movement. You can click on any
> concept to see an expanded explanation and photos of the actual concepts
> built or selected by workshop participants.
>
> Approximate time to complete this exercise is around 10-15 min.
>
> https://brandingwikipedia.org/concepts/
>
> Feel free to leave feedback directly on Snøhetta’s website, on the project
> talk page on Meta [5], or on the Brand Network [2], which will also be
> available on Meta starting next month.
>
> Snøhetta will use the feedback from the concepts to develop one single
> concept to act as a tool that will help guide the proposals around naming
> (expected for April) and around design (expected around May). They are
> scheduled to begin reviewing feedback on Tuesday, 17 March, but can
> continue taking feedback for a few more days if there is interest.
>
> We also invite you to share what free knowledge means to you in Snøhetta's
> open exercise. Please take a moment and share your thoughts in any of the
> channels mentioned.
>
>
> https://brandingwikipedia.org/2020/02/17/what-does-free-knowledge-mean-to-you/
>
> Finally, we want to 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why renaming to Wikipedia will wreak havoc on other projects

2020-02-28 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
Benjamin is it fair to expect that you are a Wikipedian first and a
Wikimedian second? The problem with perception is that it differs from
where you stand. One of the easiest things to solve on all the Wikipedias
are false friends but hey I stand with data and the Wikipedia perception is
that it is not much of a problem (statistically it is).

When people write scientific papers about Wikipedia, English Wikipedia is
to be included on penalty of not finding a publisher (a quote from a Dutch
professor at a Wikimedia conference).  When the last resort for keeping
images on Commons, OTRS, has a not so public policy where for images to be
accepted the English Wikipedia notability policy is expected. What does it
take for you to alter your perception. What does it take for us to
understand how big this bias is and how insidious its effects are?

Perception, opinions provides the worst guidance because they allow you to
deny the facts that are in front of you.
Thanks,
   GerardM

On Wed, 26 Feb 2020 at 09:32, Benjamin Lees  wrote:

>  Like Peter, I do not see a clear connection to the proposed rebranding.
> Threads of this sort would be more constructive if they were framed in a
> way that does not unnecessarily tie in every other issue one might have
> with the movement, and that does not imply that anybody with a different
> perspective must be evil or incompetent.
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 25, 2020 at 8:06 PM Gnangarra  wrote:
>
> >- it must not say the use is to, for, or on Wikipedia
> >
> >
>
> A file must not say it is *exclusively* for the use of Wikipedia, because
> such a condition is incompatible with the license we demand.  And there
> must be an actual license--"Wikipedia can use my picture" is the classic
> submission that requires us to ask for a proper licensing declaration.  But
> there is certainly no problem if somebody submits a file for the *purpose*
> of use on Wikipedia.  That is one of the most common motivations for
> submitting files.
>
>
>
> > Commons has fallen behind when it comes to the capability of taking
> photos
> > of ones self (selfies) the default position when Commons started was that
> > taking a high quality photograph of yourself wasnt possible there must
> have
> > been someone else pushing the button. What happens is Commons asks for
> the
> > subject to obtain permission from the photographer and submit that to
> OTRS,
> > the systems falls over because the photographer cant prove that the photo
> > they took of themselves was taken by themselves because the underlying
> > assumption is that that isnt possible.
> >
>
> It does appear to be standard practice to ask who took a photograph,
> because in a great many cases, it was not the person submitting the file,
> and many people do not realize that the photographer, rather than the
> subject, owns the copyright. (As Gerard says, "understanding of copyright
> and licensing is dim".) I don't think anybody treats "the picture looks
> good" as creating an irrebuttable presumption that it is not a selfie, but
> different users do have different views of how not-a-selfie-looking a given
> file is and of how much verification should be performed more generally.
>
>
> OTRS permission behaves as expected because there is a very narrow
> > definition of whats acceptable, anything that doesnt fit gets rejected.
> The
> > very real need to be pro-active in ensuring the permissions queue doesnt
> > get overwhelmed and backlogged  contributes to the fact that the grey is
> > treated as black -- close it, delete it, move on.
> >
>
> My impression is that most agents go to reasonable (and sometimes
> excessive) lengths to give people submitting files a chance to show that
> they have the rights to do so.
>
> Emufarmers
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 


Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why renaming to Wikipedia will wreak havoc on other projects

2020-02-26 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
Commons is a project with a specific purpose. It is to host all media that
fits the use of any other project. As it is English Wikipedia notability
standards are used to justify why files are not to be kept on Commons. This
is contrary to its very purpose, it is not acceptable and it is not for the
Commons community to decide otherwise.

When at OTRS a license is given for the unfettered use of media respecting
an approved license, there is no argument, no rule inside OTRS itself that
is applicable particularly when that media is explicitly asked for on
another project.
Thanks,
   Gerard

On Wed, 26 Feb 2020 at 09:39, Gnangarra  wrote:

> Scope is a Commons community decision,
> OTRS is solely about licensing
>
> On Wed, 26 Feb 2020 at 15:30, Gerard Meijssen 
> wrote:
>
> > Hoi,
> > No it is an administrative process. It follows its own rules IN ORDER TO
> do
> > what it does. The notion that material is to be useful to Wikipedia is
> NOT
> > covered by any legal restraints. This notion that is alive and well, the
> > notion that copyright can be retroactively applied never mind the
> original
> > copyright holder is that as well.
> >
> > Yes, the underlying work is legal, the process is definitely not and
> > consequently the process has to be revisited, is to be revisited in order
> > for OTRS to function for all of us.
> > Thanks,
> > GerardM
> >
> > On Wed, 26 Feb 2020 at 08:09, Gnangarra  wrote:
> >
> > > to quote Gerard
> > >
> > > There is no law that insists on the existing rules and regulations as
> put
> > > > forward, rules and regulations that are blatantly unfit
> > >
> > > for purpose.
> > >
> > >
> > > OTRS is very much a legal process because its related to Copyright
> laws,
> > > both in the US and in the country in which they reside.  Every
> > > transaction(image upload) is a person giving away their rights in
> regards
> > > to that work OTRS needs to ensure that the person is fully aware of the
> > > consequences of that action.  OTRS holds an absolute record of that
> > action
> > > of when it took place, it protects all parties should there be an issue
> > in
> > > the future in particular the WMF and our volunteers who were involved
> in
> > > the process.
> > >
> > > On Wed, 26 Feb 2020 at 13:57, Gerard Meijssen <
> gerard.meijs...@gmail.com
> > >
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hoi,
> > > > Thank you for demonstrating the extend OTRS is not fit for purpose. I
> > > > understand that OTRS is governed by rules and regulations but a
> > reference
> > > > is made to "legal". There is no law that insists on the existing
> rules
> > > and
> > > > regulations as put forward, rules and regulations that are blatantly
> > > unfit
> > > > for purpose.
> > > >
> > > > Particularly the line: "- it must not say the use is to, for, or on
> > > > Wikipedia" is problematic because either this is a list as stated
> what
> > > OTRS
> > > > adheres to or, it is not. It is a negative and as such it reads that
> it
> > > is
> > > > NOT about any Wikipedia and its vagaries.
> > > >
> > > > Yet again it is brought to the attention that the negative attitude
> is
> > to
> > > > be acceptable because of a perceived workload. Apparently it is
> easier
> > to
> > > > say no than to say yes and that is in itself mystifying.
> > > >
> > > > OTRS has not moved on with the time and as such it does not even know
> > > > selfies... An issue not confined to OTRS is that understanding of
> > > copyright
> > > > and licensing is dim anyway. When a copyright holder provides us with
> > > > material, it is licensed by the copyright holder to be available
> under
> > a
> > > > WMF permitted license. When the copyright holder provides it under a
> > > > secondary license elsewhere or when our material is used elsewhere
> > with a
> > > > more restrictive license, it does not follow that we are in breach of
> > > > copyright. I have fought such "delete on sight" battles and the only
> > > result
> > > > is no response on the image that was to be speedily deleted. The rule
> > > > should be; when material is provided to us, the license is checked at
> > the
> > > > time and any and all issues NOT involving the cop

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why renaming to Wikipedia will wreak havoc on other projects

2020-02-25 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
No it is an administrative process. It follows its own rules IN ORDER TO do
what it does. The notion that material is to be useful to Wikipedia is NOT
covered by any legal restraints. This notion that is alive and well, the
notion that copyright can be retroactively applied never mind the original
copyright holder is that as well.

Yes, the underlying work is legal, the process is definitely not and
consequently the process has to be revisited, is to be revisited in order
for OTRS to function for all of us.
Thanks,
GerardM

On Wed, 26 Feb 2020 at 08:09, Gnangarra  wrote:

> to quote Gerard
>
> There is no law that insists on the existing rules and regulations as put
> > forward, rules and regulations that are blatantly unfit
>
> for purpose.
>
>
> OTRS is very much a legal process because its related to Copyright laws,
> both in the US and in the country in which they reside.  Every
> transaction(image upload) is a person giving away their rights in regards
> to that work OTRS needs to ensure that the person is fully aware of the
> consequences of that action.  OTRS holds an absolute record of that action
> of when it took place, it protects all parties should there be an issue in
> the future in particular the WMF and our volunteers who were involved in
> the process.
>
> On Wed, 26 Feb 2020 at 13:57, Gerard Meijssen 
> wrote:
>
> > Hoi,
> > Thank you for demonstrating the extend OTRS is not fit for purpose. I
> > understand that OTRS is governed by rules and regulations but a reference
> > is made to "legal". There is no law that insists on the existing rules
> and
> > regulations as put forward, rules and regulations that are blatantly
> unfit
> > for purpose.
> >
> > Particularly the line: "- it must not say the use is to, for, or on
> > Wikipedia" is problematic because either this is a list as stated what
> OTRS
> > adheres to or, it is not. It is a negative and as such it reads that it
> is
> > NOT about any Wikipedia and its vagaries.
> >
> > Yet again it is brought to the attention that the negative attitude is to
> > be acceptable because of a perceived workload. Apparently it is easier to
> > say no than to say yes and that is in itself mystifying.
> >
> > OTRS has not moved on with the time and as such it does not even know
> > selfies... An issue not confined to OTRS is that understanding of
> copyright
> > and licensing is dim anyway. When a copyright holder provides us with
> > material, it is licensed by the copyright holder to be available under a
> > WMF permitted license. When the copyright holder provides it under a
> > secondary license elsewhere or when our material is used elsewhere with a
> > more restrictive license, it does not follow that we are in breach of
> > copyright. I have fought such "delete on sight" battles and the only
> result
> > is no response on the image that was to be speedily deleted. The rule
> > should be; when material is provided to us, the license is checked at the
> > time and any and all issues NOT involving the copyright holder are to be
> > seen as irrelevant.
> >
> > OTRS is a Wikimedia Foundation sanctioned function. It insists to
> function
> > as is and therefore *a new mandate is required* because as is, it does
> the
> > worst possible service. There is no Wikipedia, there are 300+, there are
> > other projects that require a functioning Commons and as it is, it is not
> > fit for purpose.
> >
> > You may remember when English Wikipedia had egg on its face because of
> the
> > deletion of what became a Nobel prize winner. There are MANY science
> awards
> > and we want a picture for all awardees in addition, in the Scholia tool
> we
> > want pictures of any and all people that authored a paper.
> > Thanks,
> >   GerardM
> >
> > On Wed, 26 Feb 2020 at 02:06, Gnangarra  wrote:
> >
> > > For legal reasons OTRS requires very specific wording, it declines
> > > permissions that fail to meet that very strict wording.
> > >
> > > The person must;
> > >
> > >- establish their authority to license the image
> > >- the license must be a free license PD or CC-by
> > >- it must not say the use is to, for, or on Wikipedia
> > >- it needs a URL to associate the permission with
> > >
> > > If the media meets these requirements than it will be accept, if it
> > doesnt
> > > it gets rejected. Scope is something that gets decided on on Commons.
> > >
> > > Wikidata has had an impact on scope, quite literally ev

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why renaming to Wikipedia will wreak havoc on other projects

2020-02-25 Thread Gerard Meijssen
; educational”, and hence is in scope. Of course, that includes Wikidata.
> >
> > Under the same policy, Commons does not editorialise on behalf of any of
> > the projects, and an image that is acceptable to Wikidata is by design
> > acceptable to Commons.
> >
> > If the Wikidata community considers that an item on an individual is not
> > acceptable (for  example because it has been added solely for
> > self-promotion), Wikidata can - under its own rules - delete it, and
> hence
> > the link to the image on Commons.
> >
> > Commons would then delete the image as not in use (and not otherwise
> > educational).
> >
> > None of this relies in any way on the specific definition of ‘notable’ as
> > used on the Wikipedias; that’s simply not relevant.
> >
> > The problem here seems to be an additional hurdle that has apparently
> been
> > added to the guidance given to OTRS volunteers.  OTRS has so far as I
> know
> > no mandate to decline images that fall within Commons Scope, and if they
> > are indeed doing that, the guidance should be changed.
> >
> > Michael
> >
> > > On 25 Feb 2020, at 16:11, Gerard Meijssen 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Hoi,
> > > Apparantly at Commons they have standardised themselves to only support
> > > Wikipedia.
> > >
> > > At Wikidata we have people who are notable according to our standards.
> We
> > > are actively asking them for images to illustrate our information. The
> > best
> > > suggestion we get is: do not ask for images because they are deleted at
> > > Commons.
> > >
> > > When this is what awaits us when we standardise on one label Wikipedia,
> > it
> > > is obvious that this is the worst scenario for the "other" projects.
> The
> > > projects who operate to different standards who have notability
> criteria
> > > different from English Wikipedia.
> > > Thanks,
> > >  GerardM
> > > ___
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>
>
>
> --
> GN.
>
> *Power of Diverse Collaboration*
> *Sharing knowledge brings people together*
> Wikimania Bangkok 2020
> August 5 to 9
> hosted by ESEAP
>
> Wikimania: https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Gnangarra
> Noongarpedia: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page
> Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 
<mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why renaming to Wikipedia will wreak havoc on otherprojects

2020-02-25 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
For me there is no difference. When Commons OTRS is not behaving as is to
be expected, they provide a serious disservice to our movement and yes, it
may be volunteering but that is not a reason to accept what is not
acceptable.

What will be done to remedy this predicament?
Thanks,
 GerardM


On Tue, 25 Feb 2020 at 20:31, Andy Mabbett 
wrote:

> On Tue, 25 Feb 2020 at 17:10, Rebecca O'Neill 
> wrote:
> >
> > I think this is what is being referenced:
> >
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:OTRS/Noticeboard#OTRS_&_Wikidata
>
> Thank you; it is.
>
> The issue is not with Commons, but with Commons' OTRS.
>
> tl;dr = wanted photographs of individuals with items on Wikidata
> (established 2012) , that meet Wikidata's notability criteria, are
> being rejected, unseen by the Commons or Wikidata communities, by OTRS
> volunteers, based on a 2010 policy that is on a password-protected
> wiki. Requests for details how how that policy was arrived at, and how
> it can be changed, remain unanswered.
>
> --
> Andy Mabbett
> @pigsonthewing
> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
>
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 


Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why renaming to Wikipedia will wreak havoc on other projects

2020-02-25 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
This is the chat (too long) at Wikidata
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Project_chat#Images_for_Wikidata_-_%22Global_Young_Academy%22
This is the chat at Commons
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:OTRS/Noticeboard#OTRS_&_Wikidata
Thanks,
 GerardM

On Tue, 25 Feb 2020 at 17:45, Alessandro Marchetti via Wikimedia-l <
wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> wrote:

>  Can you provide some links?
> I keep asking images for Wikidata items since years and I do not recall
> any issue at all. I have the feeling that as long everything is formally
> correct (all categories prepared and linked via wikidata infobox) nobody
> digs into that very much.
> It's true however that I have a cynical approach. In general, I think that
> whoever spends his/her time on this and not on deleting unused low
> resolution old images or cropping files or improving categorization is
> probably more focused on chasing users than actually cleaning up. As soon
> as you assume that this is the core source of the behavior, you can teach
> newbies quite well how to avoid it. It's not "good faith" but... it kinda
> works.
> Alessandro
>
> Il martedì 25 febbraio 2020, 17:11:44 CET, Gerard Meijssen <
> gerard.meijs...@gmail.com> ha scritto:
>
>  Hoi,
> Apparantly at Commons they have standardised themselves to only support
> Wikipedia.
>
> At Wikidata we have people who are notable according to our standards. We
> are actively asking them for images to illustrate our information. The best
> suggestion we get is: do not ask for images because they are deleted at
> Commons.
>
> When this is what awaits us when we standardise on one label Wikipedia, it
> is obvious that this is the worst scenario for the "other" projects. The
> projects who operate to different standards who have notability criteria
> different from English Wikipedia.
> Thanks,
>   GerardM
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 
<mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

[Wikimedia-l] Why renaming to Wikipedia will wreak havoc on other projects

2020-02-25 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
Apparantly at Commons they have standardised themselves to only support
Wikipedia.

At Wikidata we have people who are notable according to our standards. We
are actively asking them for images to illustrate our information. The best
suggestion we get is: do not ask for images because they are deleted at
Commons.

When this is what awaits us when we standardise on one label Wikipedia, it
is obvious that this is the worst scenario for the "other" projects. The
projects who operate to different standards who have notability criteria
different from English Wikipedia.
Thanks,
  GerardM
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 


Re: [Wikimedia-l] Next steps on Wikimedia Space

2020-02-21 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
There are too many places where all kinds of conversations are held.
Everyone expects that others make use of their preferred platform. I can
use wikis and I am not able to cover all the Wikis where all kinds of
conversations are held that may be or may not be of interest to me.

As chaos reigns supreme we decidedly do not communicate well. Even this
platform is boycotted by some and some are boycotted from this platform. We
are really bad at getting communication going because any and all
conversations echo from different points in other directions.
Thanks,
   Gerard

On Fri, 21 Feb 2020 at 10:31, James Salsman  wrote:

> When we decide to use something other than wikis to help those who
> don't use wikis, instead of helping those who don't use wikis to use
> them, how is that not turning our backs on project editor recruitment?
> Is the problem that people can't use wikis or that they don't yet know
> how? It just seems like a profound waste to keep building new walled
> gardens at the expense of onboarding.
>
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 


Re: [Wikimedia-l] Snøhetta and Wikimedia

2020-02-02 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
I totally agree that it is about community.. There are some 200 Wikipedia
communities, there is Commons, Wikisource and the community I am most
involved in Wikidata. What ties it together is the organisation of it all.
THAT is Wikimedia for me, both the org and the movement.
Thanks,
  GerardM

On Sun, 2 Feb 2020 at 12:12, Frans Grijzenhout  wrote:

> Thanks Pine, +1, in particular for this sentence, which goes beyond the
> legal status of the brand name:  "I think that the Wikipedia brand is, in a
> way, the brand of the community. WMF is the steward of the brand, and
> should not use the brand in ways which the community has not authorized by
> consensus."
> Frans
> *Frans Grijzenhout*, voorzitter / chair
> +31 6 5333 9499
> --
> *Vereniging Wikimedia Nederland*
> Mariaplaats 3  -  3511 LH Utrecht
> Kamer van Koophandel 17189036
> http://www.wikimedia.nl/
>
>
> Op zo 2 feb. 2020 om 01:31 schreef Pine W :
>
> > Hello,
> >
> > I have waited to return to this thread until I could clear enough
> > space in my mind to try to address it thoroughly. Apologies for the
> > delay. I will try to address multiple topics in one email.
> >
> > I think that the Wikipedia brand is, in a way, the brand of the
> > community. WMF is the steward of the brand, and should not use the
> > brand in ways which the community has not authorized by consensus.
> >
> > There was a previous mailing discussion on Wikimedia-l in September
> > 2019. I would have expected an update after that discussion if WMF was
> > considering moving ahead with rebranding itself. An email announcing
> > that the matter was being reviewed by the Board, and/or that WMF was
> > starting an RfC, would have been fine. Community consultations or an
> > RfC could have taken place at that time without using outside
> > contractor.
> >
> > I don't appreciate being surprised. Given that the focus of this
> > effort in WMF is inside of its Communications Department, I think that
> > staff should be especially proactive in communicating what they are
> > doing with regards to major initiatives, and prior to engaging in a
> > contracting process with donors' funds.
> >
> > Staff appear not to have addressed, at least in public on English
> > Wikipedia, the sockpuppeting allegations with regards to Snøhetta. [1]
> > [2].
> >
> > Also worth noting is the RfC, which was previously mentioned in this
> > thread:
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Should_the_Foundation_call_itself_Wikipedia
> > .
> > The current count as of the time of my writing this email is 26
> > support and 292 oppose.
> >
> > This series of events should have been handled differently. Nobody is
> > perfect, but there are problems here that appear to be more
> > significant than a simple one time failure to communicate on an issue
> > of moderate importance.
> >
> > One oversight that I made in my earlier email, and which I will
> > correct with an apology for not stating this earlier (I too can be
> > wrong), is that problems in this series of events could include
> > decisions that were made by the WMF Board. However, without access to
> > WMF's internal communications, it is impossible to know how this
> > series of events happened.
> >
> > I am not advocating adding stress to people who do good work, or
> > people who have so much work that they can't realistically handle
> > everything that they're told to do. It is possible that staff are
> > simply overworked. However, while I don't enjoy writing about this
> > topic, sometimes changing personnel is for the best. This happens in
> > government organizations and companies, and I imagine happens on
> > occasion in WMF, although often in private. Also, in WMF and in
> > affiliate boards, sometimes board members are replaced as a result of
> > elections. In the community, we occasionally revoke people's
> > permissions or block people in public, and here too people sometimes
> > are replaced as a result of elections. I realize that this is a topic
> > that can be stressful, but I think that candor is appropriate. I feel
> > rooted in the English Wikipedia community and I think that what I say
> > in this paragraph is consistent with how our community works, and is
> > consistent with how I see government agencies sometimes work in the
> > United States. At the same time (and I wish that I said this in my
> > previous email) the point isn't to have a culture where people should
> > be fearful on a daily basis. I would hope that generally things go OK
> > for people, and that one time mistakes which are easily reversed don't
> > result in someone feeling fearful. What is more concerning is a
> > pattern of problems, or an error that results in a single major
> > problem that is difficult to reverse.
> >
> > I personally have made considerable efforts during my personal time to
> > try to address what I heard was widespread fear among WMF staff about
> > communicating in public, and that interest continues. A 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Community survey: Wikimedia Diversity Conference 2020

2020-01-23 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
The issue then is that diversity is seen as an issue with our collaborators
and not so much as an issue of the needs of our audience.

Having said that, has there every been done a study on how and where the
lack of our diversity in our content exists and how it affects our audience?
Thanks,
   GerardM

On Thu, 23 Jan 2020 at 17:55, Marc Miquel  wrote:

> Hi Gerard,
>
> I agree it is a good practice to try to find a definition. In my
> understanding, diversity is the range of differences in a series of things,
> people, cultural traits, etc. So, diversity applied to Wikimedia, it can be
> understood as to how well the different profiles in society are engaged in
> contributing to our projects, how the different governance structures allow
> different profiles to access positions in decision-making, how the
> communities capture all the different available knowledge in certain
> geographical contexts, etc.
>
> Thanks for asking.
> Best,
> Marc
> ᐧ
>
> Missatge de Gerard Meijssen  del dia dc., 22 de
> gen. 2020 a les 8:01:
>
> > Hoi,
> > Ah yes, I can read.
> >
> > In my mind when conferences are held on a particular subject and it is
> not
> > clear what the subject is, "how can there be a solution or progress. It
> > will be whatever people think it is and results will not be results, they
> > are what happens anyway. Not knowing what your subject is is not SMART.
> >
> > So, again what is meant by diversity"?
> >
> > On Tue, 21 Jan 2020 at 23:24, Nick Wilson (Quiddity) <
> > nwil...@wikimedia.org>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Gerard, you can read about the previous events (which include answers
> > about
> > > scope), at
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Diversity_Conference
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at 10:43 AM Gerard Meijssen <
> > > gerard.meijs...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > I am not interested when I do no have a clue about the scope
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Op ma 20 jan. 2020 15:09 schreef Ilario Valdelli  >:
> > > >
> > > > > That can be an output of the conference. Is not it?
> > > > >
> > > > > On Mon, 20 Jan 2020, 13:57 Gerard Meijssen, <
> > gerard.meijs...@gmail.com
> > > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hoi,
> > > > > > How do you define diversity?
> > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > >  GerardM
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Mon, 20 Jan 2020 at 13:44, Jon Harald Søby <
> jhs...@wikimedia.no
> > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hi all, and apologies if you receive this email several times
> – I
> > > > will
> > > > > be
> > > > > > > posting it to multiple mailing lists.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Wikimedia Norge would like to organize a regional Wikimedia
> > > Diversity
> > > > > > > Conference in 2020 for Europe, with the hope of many other
> > regional
> > > > > > > conferences on the same topic being held in the near future.
> The
> > > > > > Wikimedia
> > > > > > > Diversity Conference 2020 will provide a meeting place for
> > > > discussing,
> > > > > > > debating and generating recipes for change concerning diversity
> > in
> > > > the
> > > > > > > Wikimedia movement.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > We will be sharing more updates regarding a possible conference
> > > later
> > > > > in
> > > > > > > 2020. For now, we are working on drafting a grant proposal to
> the
> > > > > > Wikimedia
> > > > > > > Foundation to support the conference. As part of the drafting
> the
> > > > > > proposal,
> > > > > > > a Community Engagement Survey is crucial to understand what
> > > community
> > > > > > > members are expecting out of such conference. In that regard,
> > > > Wikimedia
> > > > > > > Norge invite all those who are interested in the topic of
> > diversity
> > > > to
> > > > > > take
> > > > > > > part in the survey.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Please take

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Community survey: Wikimedia Diversity Conference 2020

2020-01-21 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
Ah yes, I can read.

In my mind when conferences are held on a particular subject and it is not
clear what the subject is, "how can there be a solution or progress. It
will be whatever people think it is and results will not be results, they
are what happens anyway. Not knowing what your subject is is not SMART.

So, again what is meant by diversity"?

On Tue, 21 Jan 2020 at 23:24, Nick Wilson (Quiddity) 
wrote:

> Gerard, you can read about the previous events (which include answers about
> scope), at
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Diversity_Conference
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at 10:43 AM Gerard Meijssen <
> gerard.meijs...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > I am not interested when I do no have a clue about the scope
> >
> >
> > Op ma 20 jan. 2020 15:09 schreef Ilario Valdelli :
> >
> > > That can be an output of the conference. Is not it?
> > >
> > > On Mon, 20 Jan 2020, 13:57 Gerard Meijssen,  >
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hoi,
> > > > How do you define diversity?
> > > > Thanks,
> > > >  GerardM
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, 20 Jan 2020 at 13:44, Jon Harald Søby 
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi all, and apologies if you receive this email several times – I
> > will
> > > be
> > > > > posting it to multiple mailing lists.
> > > > >
> > > > > Wikimedia Norge would like to organize a regional Wikimedia
> Diversity
> > > > > Conference in 2020 for Europe, with the hope of many other regional
> > > > > conferences on the same topic being held in the near future. The
> > > > Wikimedia
> > > > > Diversity Conference 2020 will provide a meeting place for
> > discussing,
> > > > > debating and generating recipes for change concerning diversity in
> > the
> > > > > Wikimedia movement.
> > > > >
> > > > > We will be sharing more updates regarding a possible conference
> later
> > > in
> > > > > 2020. For now, we are working on drafting a grant proposal to the
> > > > Wikimedia
> > > > > Foundation to support the conference. As part of the drafting the
> > > > proposal,
> > > > > a Community Engagement Survey is crucial to understand what
> community
> > > > > members are expecting out of such conference. In that regard,
> > Wikimedia
> > > > > Norge invite all those who are interested in the topic of diversity
> > to
> > > > take
> > > > > part in the survey.
> > > > >
> > > > > Please take the survey here
> > > > > <
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSdEaXc2AIaaFgKiQUWCDdnJKLd26KA8_DDQsyAqemXsH-wRyw/viewform
> > > > > >
> > > > > or copy and paste the URL below into your internet browser:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSdEaXc2AIaaFgKiQUWCDdnJKLd26KA8_DDQsyAqemXsH-wRyw/viewform
> > > > >
> > > > > *Participants*
> > > > > For a Wikimedia Diversity Conference 2020 we would like to invite
> > > > > participants who are decision-makers in the movement (volunteers,
> > board
> > > > or
> > > > > staff members of a Wikimedia affiliate) or highly engaged in
> projects
> > > > about
> > > > > knowledge equity and diversity. The conference will be an
> opportunity
> > > for
> > > > > the participants to discuss solutions for implementation of the
> 2030
> > > > > movement strategy
> > > > > <
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20
> > >
> > > on
> > > > > knowledge equity.
> > > > >
> > > > > Best regards,
> > > > > *Jon Harald Søby*
> > > > > Prosjektleder / Prosjektleiar / Prošeaktajođiheaddji / Project
> > Manager
> > > > > Wikimedia Norge / Wikimedia Noreg / Wikimedia Norga
> > > > >
> > > > > +47 977 67 510
> > > > > jhs...@wikimedia.no
> > > > > ___
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Gui

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Community survey: Wikimedia Diversity Conference 2020

2020-01-20 Thread Gerard Meijssen
I am not interested when I do no have a clue about the scope


Op ma 20 jan. 2020 15:09 schreef Ilario Valdelli :

> That can be an output of the conference. Is not it?
>
> On Mon, 20 Jan 2020, 13:57 Gerard Meijssen, 
> wrote:
>
> > Hoi,
> > How do you define diversity?
> > Thanks,
> >  GerardM
> >
> > On Mon, 20 Jan 2020 at 13:44, Jon Harald Søby 
> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi all, and apologies if you receive this email several times – I will
> be
> > > posting it to multiple mailing lists.
> > >
> > > Wikimedia Norge would like to organize a regional Wikimedia Diversity
> > > Conference in 2020 for Europe, with the hope of many other regional
> > > conferences on the same topic being held in the near future. The
> > Wikimedia
> > > Diversity Conference 2020 will provide a meeting place for discussing,
> > > debating and generating recipes for change concerning diversity in the
> > > Wikimedia movement.
> > >
> > > We will be sharing more updates regarding a possible conference later
> in
> > > 2020. For now, we are working on drafting a grant proposal to the
> > Wikimedia
> > > Foundation to support the conference. As part of the drafting the
> > proposal,
> > > a Community Engagement Survey is crucial to understand what community
> > > members are expecting out of such conference. In that regard, Wikimedia
> > > Norge invite all those who are interested in the topic of diversity to
> > take
> > > part in the survey.
> > >
> > > Please take the survey here
> > > <
> > >
> >
> https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSdEaXc2AIaaFgKiQUWCDdnJKLd26KA8_DDQsyAqemXsH-wRyw/viewform
> > > >
> > > or copy and paste the URL below into your internet browser:
> > >
> > >
> >
> https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSdEaXc2AIaaFgKiQUWCDdnJKLd26KA8_DDQsyAqemXsH-wRyw/viewform
> > >
> > > *Participants*
> > > For a Wikimedia Diversity Conference 2020 we would like to invite
> > > participants who are decision-makers in the movement (volunteers, board
> > or
> > > staff members of a Wikimedia affiliate) or highly engaged in projects
> > about
> > > knowledge equity and diversity. The conference will be an opportunity
> for
> > > the participants to discuss solutions for implementation of the 2030
> > > movement strategy
> > > <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20>
> on
> > > knowledge equity.
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > > *Jon Harald Søby*
> > > Prosjektleder / Prosjektleiar / Prošeaktajođiheaddji / Project Manager
> > > Wikimedia Norge / Wikimedia Noreg / Wikimedia Norga
> > >
> > > +47 977 67 510
> > > jhs...@wikimedia.no
> > > ___
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 
<mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Community survey: Wikimedia Diversity Conference 2020

2020-01-20 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
How do you define diversity?
Thanks,
 GerardM

On Mon, 20 Jan 2020 at 13:44, Jon Harald Søby  wrote:

> Hi all, and apologies if you receive this email several times – I will be
> posting it to multiple mailing lists.
>
> Wikimedia Norge would like to organize a regional Wikimedia Diversity
> Conference in 2020 for Europe, with the hope of many other regional
> conferences on the same topic being held in the near future. The Wikimedia
> Diversity Conference 2020 will provide a meeting place for discussing,
> debating and generating recipes for change concerning diversity in the
> Wikimedia movement.
>
> We will be sharing more updates regarding a possible conference later in
> 2020. For now, we are working on drafting a grant proposal to the Wikimedia
> Foundation to support the conference. As part of the drafting the proposal,
> a Community Engagement Survey is crucial to understand what community
> members are expecting out of such conference. In that regard, Wikimedia
> Norge invite all those who are interested in the topic of diversity to take
> part in the survey.
>
> Please take the survey here
> <
> https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSdEaXc2AIaaFgKiQUWCDdnJKLd26KA8_DDQsyAqemXsH-wRyw/viewform
> >
> or copy and paste the URL below into your internet browser:
>
> https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSdEaXc2AIaaFgKiQUWCDdnJKLd26KA8_DDQsyAqemXsH-wRyw/viewform
>
> *Participants*
> For a Wikimedia Diversity Conference 2020 we would like to invite
> participants who are decision-makers in the movement (volunteers, board or
> staff members of a Wikimedia affiliate) or highly engaged in projects about
> knowledge equity and diversity. The conference will be an opportunity for
> the participants to discuss solutions for implementation of the 2030
> movement strategy
>  on
> knowledge equity.
>
> Best regards,
> *Jon Harald Søby*
> Prosjektleder / Prosjektleiar / Prošeaktajođiheaddji / Project Manager
> Wikimedia Norge / Wikimedia Noreg / Wikimedia Norga
>
> +47 977 67 510
> jhs...@wikimedia.no
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 


Re: [Wikimedia-l] The wikisites looks like 1996

2019-12-15 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
I am game, to make me interested again in the editing sense of Wikipedia,
there are a few things on my wish list.

The first thing I will happily contribute to are "red links on steroids".
The problem with red links is disambiguation.. Suppose that there is no
article by that name, chances are that in another Wikipedia, Wikidata the
subjects is already known. Only when an article is written about *that
*subject,
the red links is bluefied. Easy, obvious. The first start is to have a
background job link all the blue link to their respective Wikidata items
and then compare links on the same subject. There are bound to be a lot of
false friends becoming obvious in that way.

The second wish is that lists are marked as such. My preference is that we
use Listeria on steroids ie the data displayed is from Wikidata but that is
secondary. What I aim to achieve is that with lists marked as such, it
becomes easy to compare lists and mark them for attention when attention is
needed to get agreement on the list.

The third wish is that when there are individual references for list items,
they are shared. A great example is found in the list of fellows of the
African Academy of Science. I noticed this in the English Wikipedia and it
started me adding references because typically they are great reads as well.

My most cherished wish though is that we stimulate people to *read *more
than what we offer in a Wikipedia article. Currently we offer our blue
links, interwiki links and references as reading material and it is quite
the rabbit hole. Great for our readers, not so much for our editors. What
they need is more and more found in the links that are part of the Scholia
[1] for any subject, author paper name it. The experience is becoming more
rich. Unlike Reasonator [2] which has only one way of serving its audience,
Scholia has different views telling different stories. It allows for new
papers / literature for a subject.

Given that *we want people to read*, why not expand search results in any
project with what is available elsewhere in our Wikiverse. Those who know
about it have it for years now. I do not want to do without it. It is a
great tool to help with disambiguation. It can be expanded with Scholia
results... to be really, really wild.

Talking about disambiguation.. Reasonator has always been superior at
disambiguation. We know how to prioritise results, we have had superior
description, descriptions for many years.

My key take away, if you want to be better forget dogma or "consensus" and
start with objectives and how we aim to get there.
Thanks,
  GerardM




[1] https://tools.wmflabs.org/scholia/
[2] https://tools.wmflabs.org/reasonator

On Sun, 15 Dec 2019 at 18:53, Paul J. Weiss  wrote:

> "I think we all generally endorse incremental improvements, instead
> of drastic overhauls."
>
> Um, that is clearly not true, since otherwise, for example, the original
> poster would not have sent out his message.
>
> For readers, I think many, if not most, would want a look and feel that
> works for them, aesthetically and functionally, regardless of how much a
> redesign was evolutionary or revolutionary. Many websites have gone through
> major redesigns successfully. (And of course some have been utter
> disasters, but many of those disasters came about because of poor design,
> not just because the design was a significant departure from the previous
> design.)
>
> For WMF wikis with very small editor bases, the degree of change may be
> less important than the quality of the change. A meaningful change, however
> small or large, may enable that community to recruit new editors who were
> previously turned off by wiki syntax (or other) complexities.
>
> As a WP editor myself, I would absolutely welcome a drastically different
> design, if it were a great design, that facilitated the editing and reading
> activities I want to engage in, and was pleasant to the eye. I welcome each
> change, regardless of size, that is an improvement.
>
> One side benefit of a revolutionary design change is that it can make
> long-term users reassess their use of a website, sometimes discovering a
> "new" feature, which has actually been there all along, nevertheless
> creating more engaged users. Another, I imagine, is that often there is a
> spike in word-of-mouth surrounding a major redesign, which can also have
> positive recruitment effects. A third might be that a drastic redesign
> would re-level the playing field, so to speak. New editors might be less
> subject to poor conduct from some long-term editors who lord their arcane
> wiki knowledge over newbies.
>
> Paul
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Remember Wikipedia Zero.. Where is the research about the effects of its demise?

2019-12-02 Thread Gerard Meijssen
ave also been downloaded 100 of thousands of times
> > > mostly from people in LMIC.
> > >
> > > Wikipedia Zero faced the controversial about net neutrality. And thus
> > > we were legally banned from continuing in India.
> > >
> > > Douglas Scott and I discussed the effects of the program in South
> > > Africa. Have cc'ed him to comment further but basically it sounded not
> > > all that great due to all the further limitations that were added by
> > > the telecoms.
> > >
> > > James
> > >
> > > On Sun, Dec 1, 2019 at 4:25 PM James Salsman 
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Kul,
> > > >
> > > > Would you please send a few or more paragraph description of the
> > > > accomplishments and costs of the Wikipedia Zero program to the
> > > > wikimedia-l list?
> > > >
> > > > I also would love to see it back. The concerns about zero rating
> > > > service abuse are real, but they did not apply to WZ no matter how
> > > > many people implied they did at the time.
> > > >
> > > > Best regards,
> > > > Jim
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, Dec 1, 2019 at 4:13 AM Peter Southwood
> > > >  wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Gerhard,
> > > > > I am also interested in what the impact of Wikipedia Zero was, but
> > it is not obvious to me how it would be measured.
> > > > > The board members are unlikely to have personally researched this,
> > but might know if there is or was a project and if so what they are or
> were
> > trying to measure. Equally, someone from WMF might be able to report on
> > what has been or is being done in this regard. It is also possible that
> > nothing has been done, or someone who does not read this list is working
> on
> > it.
> > > > > If anyone reads this and can enlighten us, either to whether it is
> > an ongoing project, has been done and the information is available
> > somewhere, or nobody is known to be working on it, please let us know.
> > > > > Anyone who has ideas on how it could be measured or why it can't is
> > also welcome to comment.
> > > > > Cheers,
> > > > > Peter
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > -Original Message-
> > > > > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org]
> > On Behalf Of Gerard Meijssen
> > > > > Sent: 01 December 2019 08:19
> > > > > To: Lodewijk Gelauf; Wikimedia Mailing List
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Remember Wikipedia Zero.. Where is the
> > research about the effects of its demise?
> > > > >
> > > > > Lodewijk,
> > > > > What I asked for is: do we understand what the impact was of the
> > Wikipedia
> > > > > Zero project. In the answer of James, a board member of the WMF
> > someone who
> > > > > could know, there is nothing that answers that question. All the
> > answer
> > > > > does is deflect the question to something else. A notion that it is
> > "not
> > > > > that bad because we have these other things". These things we had
> > before
> > > > > Wikipedia Zero, they are not Wikipedia and they do not scale.
> > > > >
> > > > > What I have noticed is that once consensus has been reached, we do
> > not want
> > > > > to be confronted with the consequences of our actions. Wikipedia
> > Zero has
> > > > > damaged our outreach and what the BBC info reminds us of is that
> > Internet,
> > > > > the cost of Internet, is not comparable in Africa with what we are
> > used to.
> > > > > It means that we no longer reach the girls and boys in Soweto as we
> > showed
> > > > > in our film clip at the Erasmus award.
> > > > >
> > > > > We do not cover Africa properly, we do not need to seek consensus
> > about
> > > > > this, that is easily to be shown. Our focus on outreach is in
> > America, then
> > > > > Europe, then the rest of the world and there is Africa. From the
> > moment we
> > > > > stopped Wikipedia Zero, we have invested heavily in infrastructure
> in
> > > > > Africa, the organisational presence in the USA is now such that it
> > rivals
> > > > > Wikimania and is used as an excuse by some to even dismantle
> > Wik

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Remember Wikipedia Zero.. Where is the research about the effects of its demise?

2019-12-01 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
Peter we were celebrated when we received the Erasmus prize. It was a
joyous occasion and a clip was shown with children from Soweto explaining
what Wikipedia Zero meant for them. At the time we DID have statistics on
growth from Africa. We did know what growth was attributable to Wikipedia
Zero. We have continued to measure our performance so the answer is one
where someone with appropriate knowledgeable or skills looks at the
numbers, extrapolate a growth path and compare. Not really problematic.
What is problematic is for us to accept that our choices have
consequences. *Our
*maturity can be measured by our ability to know and accept the
consequences of our actions.

Contrary to some, I do think as an organisation we are doing quite well.
What we do is still biased and if we are to be less biased we have to both
ask for money and spend more money in Africa, South America and Asia. As it
is, European and North Americans have the expectation that they are
entitled because they pay for things. Fundraising in Africa, South American
and Asia may not be as "profitable" but the value we gain by asking people
to support *themselves *is of value in itself.

We could and should spend more where our potential impact is biggest. As it
is we do not even know the science that establishes or refutes what we have
in our Wikipedias. As it is we only know somewhat what we used as a
reference, hardly representative particularly when you broaden your
horizon. Oh and when will we have a formal register of organisations we
partner with like the Internet Archive?
Thanks,
GerardM

On Sun, 1 Dec 2019 at 13:13, Peter Southwood 
wrote:

> Gerhard,
> I am also interested in what the impact of Wikipedia Zero was, but it is
> not obvious to me how it would be measured.
> The board members are unlikely to have personally researched this, but
> might know if there is or was a project and if so what they are or were
> trying to measure. Equally, someone from WMF might be able to report on
> what has been or is being done in this regard. It is also possible that
> nothing has been done, or someone who does not read this list is working on
> it.
> If anyone reads this and can enlighten us, either to whether it is an
> ongoing project, has been done and the information is available somewhere,
> or nobody is known to be working on it, please let us know.
> Anyone who has ideas on how it could be measured or why it can't is also
> welcome to comment.
> Cheers,
> Peter
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On
> Behalf Of Gerard Meijssen
> Sent: 01 December 2019 08:19
> To: Lodewijk Gelauf; Wikimedia Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Remember Wikipedia Zero.. Where is the research
> about the effects of its demise?
>
> Lodewijk,
> What I asked for is: do we understand what the impact was of the Wikipedia
> Zero project. In the answer of James, a board member of the WMF someone who
> could know, there is nothing that answers that question. All the answer
> does is deflect the question to something else. A notion that it is "not
> that bad because we have these other things". These things we had before
> Wikipedia Zero, they are not Wikipedia and they do not scale.
>
> What I have noticed is that once consensus has been reached, we do not want
> to be confronted with the consequences of our actions. Wikipedia Zero has
> damaged our outreach and what the BBC info reminds us of is that Internet,
> the cost of Internet, is not comparable in Africa with what we are used to.
> It means that we no longer reach the girls and boys in Soweto as we showed
> in our film clip at the Erasmus award.
>
> We do not cover Africa properly, we do not need to seek consensus about
> this, that is easily to be shown. Our focus on outreach is in America, then
> Europe, then the rest of the world and there is Africa. From the moment we
> stopped Wikipedia Zero, we have invested heavily in infrastructure in
> Africa, the organisational presence in the USA is now such that it rivals
> Wikimania and is used as an excuse by some to even dismantle Wikimania. As
> an organisation, a movement the "centre periphery" model is alive and well.
> We happily embrace Burke's peerage in Wikidata and we balk at the fact that
> covering science takes resources away from pet projects.
>
> You tell me to be constructive and here I lay out what the situation is.
> How can you be constructive as our movement does not support science, the
> people who need our information most are disenfranchised because we do not
> cover them, support them in an equal manner.
> Thanks,
>
>
> On Sun, 1 Dec 2019 at 04:31, effe iets anders 
> wrote:
>
> > Hi Gerard,
> >
> > It would be great if y

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Remember Wikipedia Zero.. Where is the research about the effects of its demise?

2019-12-01 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Lodewijk,
What I asked for is: do we understand what the impact was of the Wikipedia
Zero project. In the answer of James, a board member of the WMF someone who
could know, there is nothing that answers that question. All the answer
does is deflect the question to something else. A notion that it is "not
that bad because we have these other things". These things we had before
Wikipedia Zero, they are not Wikipedia and they do not scale.

What I have noticed is that once consensus has been reached, we do not want
to be confronted with the consequences of our actions. Wikipedia Zero has
damaged our outreach and what the BBC info reminds us of is that Internet,
the cost of Internet, is not comparable in Africa with what we are used to.
It means that we no longer reach the girls and boys in Soweto as we showed
in our film clip at the Erasmus award.

We do not cover Africa properly, we do not need to seek consensus about
this, that is easily to be shown. Our focus on outreach is in America, then
Europe, then the rest of the world and there is Africa. From the moment we
stopped Wikipedia Zero, we have invested heavily in infrastructure in
Africa, the organisational presence in the USA is now such that it rivals
Wikimania and is used as an excuse by some to even dismantle Wikimania. As
an organisation, a movement the "centre periphery" model is alive and well.
We happily embrace Burke's peerage in Wikidata and we balk at the fact that
covering science takes resources away from pet projects.

You tell me to be constructive and here I lay out what the situation is.
How can you be constructive as our movement does not support science, the
people who need our information most are disenfranchised because we do not
cover them, support them in an equal manner.
Thanks,


On Sun, 1 Dec 2019 at 04:31, effe iets anders 
wrote:

> Hi Gerard,
>
> It would be great if you could keep a slightly more constructive tone in
> your messages. On one hand, you seem genuinely interested to help access to
> free knowledge in Africa, but in your second email, you seem to jump (after
> one response) to conclusions already. If you like to get real responses to
> your emails, you may want to try a more constructive attitude. For me, it
> is at least sufficiently offputting to disengage (I removed the rest of my
> response/suggestions).
>
> -- Lodewijk
>
> On Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 9:34 PM Gerard Meijssen  >
> wrote:
>
> > Hoi,
> > Kiwix and off line Wikipedia did exist at the start of Wikipedia Zero.
> It
> > is great that you brought some to Africa but you do not scale and it is
> not
> > a study into the effects of what the effects are of terminating Wikipedia
> > Zero.
>
>
> > No idea what "Starlink"  is
>
>
> https://lmgtfy.com/?q=starlink=l
>
>
> > but it is not a reality for a few more years..
> > It sounds like we have thrown all these kids under the bus but hey, we
> have
> > plan. A plan/action is having our own caches in Africa and providing edit
> > and read capabilities for all who care to use it... and then measure the
> > extend it helps us recover from our Wikipedia Zero public.
> > Thanks,
> >GerardM
> >
> > On Tue, 26 Nov 2019 at 02:48, James Heilman  wrote:
> >
> > > We have offline Wikipedia. I have shipped devices to Kinshasa, and
> > > they arrived :-)
> > >
> > > Of course they do not at all address the need for two way
> communication.
> > >
> > > I am hoping Starlink will help when it comes online in a few years.
> > >
> > > James
> > >
> > > On Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 12:19 AM Gerard Meijssen
> > >  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hoi,
> > > > The BBC shows how dramatically expensive internet is in Africa.. For
> in
> > > my
> > > > opinion local political reasons Wikipedia Zero has terminated. That
> is
> > ok
> > > > up to a point; the point being that we understand the consequences
> from
> > > > this action.
> > > >
> > > > Given that our data is NOT local, people have to pay a premium. What
> > are
> > > we
> > > > going to do to compensate for expensive Wikipedia that replaced
> > Wikipedia
> > > > Zero? Did we study the effects or are we not interested in the
> > > consequences
> > > > of our actions?
> > > > Thanks,
> > > >GerardM
> > > >
> > > > https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-50516888
> > > > ___
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Remember Wikipedia Zero.. Where is the research about the effects of its demise?

2019-11-25 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
Kiwix and off line Wikipedia did exist at the start of Wikipedia Zero.  It
is great that you brought some to Africa but you do not scale and it is not
a study into the effects of what the effects are of terminating Wikipedia
Zero.

No idea what "Starlink"  is but it is not a reality for a few more years..
It sounds like we have thrown all these kids under the bus but hey, we have
plan. A plan/action is having our own caches in Africa and providing edit
and read capabilities for all who care to use it... and then measure the
extend it helps us recover from our Wikipedia Zero public.
Thanks,
   GerardM

On Tue, 26 Nov 2019 at 02:48, James Heilman  wrote:

> We have offline Wikipedia. I have shipped devices to Kinshasa, and
> they arrived :-)
>
> Of course they do not at all address the need for two way communication.
>
> I am hoping Starlink will help when it comes online in a few years.
>
> James
>
> On Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 12:19 AM Gerard Meijssen
>  wrote:
> >
> > Hoi,
> > The BBC shows how dramatically expensive internet is in Africa.. For in
> my
> > opinion local political reasons Wikipedia Zero has terminated. That is ok
> > up to a point; the point being that we understand the consequences from
> > this action.
> >
> > Given that our data is NOT local, people have to pay a premium. What are
> we
> > going to do to compensate for expensive Wikipedia that replaced Wikipedia
> > Zero? Did we study the effects or are we not interested in the
> consequences
> > of our actions?
> > Thanks,
> >GerardM
> >
> > https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-50516888
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>
>
>
> --
> James Heilman
> MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
>
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 
<mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Brief request for advice about "What's making you happy this week?"

2019-11-25 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi Pine,

What makes me happy is that scientists are now adding information for their
young academy. There are many young scientists organised nationally and
internationally and typically they are a member for a set number of years.
What makes me really happy is that these orgs are now getting involved; the
coverage improves, they are increasincly registered at ORCiD with
open/public information.

When scientists take a shine to their Scholia, including their co-authors,
papers, doctoral advisor we gain a better understanding about contemporary
science. These young academies cover any subject and it prevents a bias in
our coverage of science. [1]
Thanks,
  GerardM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:GlobalYoungAcademyTeam


On Mon, 25 Nov 2019 at 09:36, Pine W  wrote:

> Hello colleagues,
>
> I would like to ask for your advice about one issue with the "What's making
> you happy this week?" emails.
>
> I was hoping that people would frequently comment in the email threads
> and/or on the talk pages of WMYHTW publications in *The Signpost* to share
> what is making them happy, in the Wikiverse or elsewhere. However, comments
> are somewhat rare.
>
> I am concerned that some people may feel too intimidated to comment.
>
> I understand that communicating in public requires courage, but I believe
> that people who try to be respectful will have their comments received well
> by the community if they comment in these threads. Perfection is not a
> requirement for WMYHTW.
>
> Also, I think that public communication becomes easier with practice, and
> these threads would be good places for people who want to become more
> experienced with public communication on Wikimedia-l to practice.
>
> Is there something else that you think could be done to facilitate
> participation in WMYHTW? I would appreciate your advice and input.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Pine
> ( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine )
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 


[Wikimedia-l] Remember Wikipedia Zero.. Where is the research about the effects of its demise?

2019-11-24 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
The BBC shows how dramatically expensive internet is in Africa.. For in my
opinion local political reasons Wikipedia Zero has terminated. That is ok
up to a point; the point being that we understand the consequences from
this action.

Given that our data is NOT local, people have to pay a premium. What are we
going to do to compensate for expensive Wikipedia that replaced Wikipedia
Zero? Did we study the effects or are we not interested in the consequences
of our actions?
Thanks,
   GerardM

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-50516888
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 


Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Foundation Chief of Community Engagement to leave the Foundation

2019-11-16 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
It is all a matter of perception. I work at Wikidata particularly on
Africa. I notice how little data we have on Wikidata. Today for instance I
added ministers of health because we just did not have this. We do not have
the geographic data that is what we need if we only want to know where
someone was born/died.. I regularly add universities to Wikidata because we
do not have them.

You can say that everything is well in hand, we were there, and these nice
people are really active. Sure. Compare that with the American meet up
where it was professionals getting to grips with how to get the most out of
our projects.

We took away what enabled children to make use of Wikipedia, the question
is what did we do to compensate.
Thanks,
  GerardM

On Sat, 16 Nov 2019 at 19:19, Paulo Santos Perneta 
wrote:

>  What websites are you talking about, Gerard? I couldn't get that part.
>
> Africa is way more engaged and active that the impression that often passes
> to the rest of the movement, and I believe that the WMF staff that went to
> Wiki Indaba has noticed that (it was impossible not to notice it, IMO). I
> was at Wiki Indaba, and my impression is that the WMF was well and properly
> represented at the conference, that the money was well spent and that there
> will be/ already are practical and noticeable improvements in the
> engagement with the wiki communities in Africa on the part of the WMF after
> that.
>
> Best,
> Paulo
>
> Gerard Meijssen  escreveu no dia sábado,
> 16/11/2019 à(s) 16:12:
>
> > Hoi,
> > What language does the staff, the departments speak.
> >
> > What chance for the current bias to be sustained and for no real progress
> > where we do a mediocre job at best.. Did we EVER research what the effect
> > was of ending the free access to our articles when we ended our program.
> Do
> > we know how to make a difference and are we willing to let go of what
> holds
> > us back?
> >
> > Just compare the recent conventions and the money spend. Africa could be
> so
> > much more active when our websites are as good there as what we are
> > accustomed to. Yes, staff went to Africa and then what?
> > Thanks,
> >GerardM
> >
> > On Sat, 16 Nov 2019 at 16:04, Peter Southwood <
> > peter.southw...@telkomsa.net>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > If the changes get staff more directly and personally involved in
> > > communicating with the rest of the community it could be helpful to
> both
> > > groups,
> > > Cheers,
> > > Peter
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On
> > > Behalf Of Dariusz Jemielniak
> > > Sent: 16 November 2019 12:39
> > > To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Foundation Chief of Community
> > > Engagement to leave the Foundation
> > >
> > > hi,
> > >
> > > speaking just in my personal opinion and capacity, without discussing
> it
> > > with anyone else: only time will tell whether this structural change
> > works,
> > > and jumping to conclusions is definitely premature.
> > >
> > > In principle, as a person specializing in management and organizational
> > > change, I can tell that there is no one-size-fits-all solution. I can
> > > definitely see a lot of possible benefits to the restructuring though,
> > and
> > > we definitely DO want all WMF departments to be in touch with the
> > > communities. The proposed approach tries to address the siloses. Every
> > > department will have good interface with the CE issues, and this is a
> > good
> > > thing. Whether it leads to better CE prioritization is unknown yet, but
> > > structurally it can definitely help.
> > >
> > > On a practical level, given the fact that our previous search for the
> > > C-level position for CE took more than half a year, AFAIR, in the short
> > > term the assumed approach allows us to leapfrog a lot of turmoil, which
> > > could be damaging to community engagement in this crucial moment (last
> > > stretch of our strategic exercise effort). In the long run - I am
> certain
> > > that the WMF leadership does not believe in things written in stone.
> > >
> > > I'd be really reluctant to assume the restructuring is good or bad for
> > the
> > > community as it is, everything depends on how the new structure is used
> > in
> > > practice.
> > >
> > > best,
> > >
> > > dj "pundit"
> > >
>

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Foundation Chief of Community Engagement to leave the Foundation

2019-11-16 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
What language does the staff, the departments speak.

What chance for the current bias to be sustained and for no real progress
where we do a mediocre job at best.. Did we EVER research what the effect
was of ending the free access to our articles when we ended our program. Do
we know how to make a difference and are we willing to let go of what holds
us back?

Just compare the recent conventions and the money spend. Africa could be so
much more active when our websites are as good there as what we are
accustomed to. Yes, staff went to Africa and then what?
Thanks,
   GerardM

On Sat, 16 Nov 2019 at 16:04, Peter Southwood 
wrote:

> If the changes get staff more directly and personally involved in
> communicating with the rest of the community it could be helpful to both
> groups,
> Cheers,
> Peter
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On
> Behalf Of Dariusz Jemielniak
> Sent: 16 November 2019 12:39
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Foundation Chief of Community
> Engagement to leave the Foundation
>
> hi,
>
> speaking just in my personal opinion and capacity, without discussing it
> with anyone else: only time will tell whether this structural change works,
> and jumping to conclusions is definitely premature.
>
> In principle, as a person specializing in management and organizational
> change, I can tell that there is no one-size-fits-all solution. I can
> definitely see a lot of possible benefits to the restructuring though, and
> we definitely DO want all WMF departments to be in touch with the
> communities. The proposed approach tries to address the siloses. Every
> department will have good interface with the CE issues, and this is a good
> thing. Whether it leads to better CE prioritization is unknown yet, but
> structurally it can definitely help.
>
> On a practical level, given the fact that our previous search for the
> C-level position for CE took more than half a year, AFAIR, in the short
> term the assumed approach allows us to leapfrog a lot of turmoil, which
> could be damaging to community engagement in this crucial moment (last
> stretch of our strategic exercise effort). In the long run - I am certain
> that the WMF leadership does not believe in things written in stone.
>
> I'd be really reluctant to assume the restructuring is good or bad for the
> community as it is, everything depends on how the new structure is used in
> practice.
>
> best,
>
> dj "pundit"
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Nov 16, 2019 at 1:29 AM Paul J. Weiss  pjwe...@uw.edu>> wrote:
> I find the disbanding of the Community Engagement department at WMF to be
> quite concerning. I will go so far as to say that I view it as a mistake
> that will have negative impacts well into the future.
>
> For one thing, the structure of an organization is in some sense a
> statement of priorities. I believe this move does indeed say to employees,
> the community, allied organization, and the rest of the world that the WMF
> is now placing less value on engaging the community. Given that many in the
> community have been feeling this already, this is not an opportune time to
> make this transition, even if it were a good idea for other reasons.
>
> Another issue is the specific placement of individual teams. For example,
> you say that returning the Trust & Safety team to the Legal department is
> intuitive. It certainly is not to me, and that move in particular is
> concerning. The team's homepage on Meta states that it "identifies, builds
> and – as appropriate – staffs processes which keep our users safe; design,
> develop, and execute on a strategy that integrates legal, product,
> research, and learning & evaluation to proactively mitigate risk as well as
> manage the overall safety of our online and offline communities when
> incidents happen." The legal aspect is only one of many in the team's
> purview, and hopefully not a large one.
>
> In my experience, units within legal departments take a very legalistic
> view of their work. As one example, many colleges and universities have an
> office for students with disabilities. In the US, those that are in legal
> or policy departments tend to focus very much on doing the minimum they
> have to do under the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA), rather than
> being student-centered. (This is the case here at the University of
> Washington.) Compare this to the focus of units for women, students of
> color, etc., often hierarchically under student services, who are much more
> proactive and supportive.
>
> I definitely do not want Trust & Safety to narrow its focus to ensuring
> enforcement & reducing liability. As you know, legal but negative behavior
> is a significant threat to the future of Wikipedia and sister projects. The
> team needs to be organizationally placed to maximize, not minimize, its
> access to resources, the community, and other staff as well as its impact.
> Placing it 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] WikiConference North America live stream

2019-11-10 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
We have done rather well. The only thing that was frustrated is the
registration of the recordings at Wikidata. The items for the recordings
where unceremoniously removed by a heavy handed admin.
Thanks,
GerardM

On Mon, 11 Nov 2019 at 07:06, Peter Southwood 
wrote:

> Hi Gerard,
> Do you have a better suggestion? Something practical and less expensive,
> that could actually work to make conferences more widely accessible?
> Cheers,
> Peter
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On
> Behalf Of Gerard Meijssen
> Sent: 11 November 2019 07:45
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] WikiConference North America live stream
>
> Eh,
> and what choices are then made when conferences coincide as they do with
> this conference? Not really practical and really expensive.
> Thanks,
>GerardM
>
> On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 at 22:36, James Salsman  wrote:
>
> > It would be great if the Foundation hired a dedicated A/V team to
> > remote-enable as many conferences and meetups as possible.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Nov 7, 2019 at 11:47 AM Ziko van Dijk 
> wrote:
> >
> > > Hello Phoebe, thank you for the good news. We invest so much in our
> > > conferences, that it is a pity that they often are not recorded.
> > > Kind regards
> > > Ziko
> > >
> > > Am Do., 7. Nov. 2019 um 20:31 Uhr schrieb phoebe ayers <
> > > phoebe.w...@gmail.com>:
> > >
> > > > Dear all,
> > > > We are looking forward to WikiConference North America here at MIT in
> > > > Cambridge, Massachusetts this weekend! We will be welcoming around
> 250
> > > > people over the four-day weekend, with a museum and cultural
> > institution
> > > > culture crawl on Friday, conference sessions on Saturday and Sunday,
> > and
> > > > discussion/hackathon focused on reliability and credibility on
> Monday.
> > > >
> > > > For those who can't be here with us in person, we have a live stream
> > > > planned of three of our session rooms on Saturday and Sunday. To
> access
> > > the
> > > > stream, go here:
> > > > http://web.mit.edu/webcast/wiki/f19/
> > > >
> > > > We are looking forward to sharing as much of the conference as we can
> > > with
> > > > you all! To find out what is when, the schedule is here (all times
> > > eastern
> > > > time):
> > > > https://wikiconference.org/wiki/2019/Schedule
> > > >
> > > > We have a packed schedule with sessions about education, research,
> > > > outreach, and more, as well as a special focus/track in our main
> > > auditorium
> > > > on credibility and reliability in the news and media, which our
> > partners
> > > at
> > > > the Credibility Coalition are assisting with. As we think about the
> > > future
> > > > of Wikipedia as a reliable source in a world where social media
> > platforms
> > > > and media networks are struggling with issues of misinformation and
> > > > credibility, we hope that this program will be both timely and
> helpful.
> > > >
> > > > Let me know if you have any questions and I hope you are able to tune
> > in
> > > > online.
> > > > Phoebe, for WCNA
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > * I use this address for lists; send personal messages to
> phoebe.ayers
> > > 
> > > > gmail.com *
> > > > ___
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > ___
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] WikiConference North America live stream

2019-11-10 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Eh,
and what choices are then made when conferences coincide as they do with
this conference? Not really practical and really expensive.
Thanks,
   GerardM

On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 at 22:36, James Salsman  wrote:

> It would be great if the Foundation hired a dedicated A/V team to
> remote-enable as many conferences and meetups as possible.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 7, 2019 at 11:47 AM Ziko van Dijk  wrote:
>
> > Hello Phoebe, thank you for the good news. We invest so much in our
> > conferences, that it is a pity that they often are not recorded.
> > Kind regards
> > Ziko
> >
> > Am Do., 7. Nov. 2019 um 20:31 Uhr schrieb phoebe ayers <
> > phoebe.w...@gmail.com>:
> >
> > > Dear all,
> > > We are looking forward to WikiConference North America here at MIT in
> > > Cambridge, Massachusetts this weekend! We will be welcoming around 250
> > > people over the four-day weekend, with a museum and cultural
> institution
> > > culture crawl on Friday, conference sessions on Saturday and Sunday,
> and
> > > discussion/hackathon focused on reliability and credibility on Monday.
> > >
> > > For those who can't be here with us in person, we have a live stream
> > > planned of three of our session rooms on Saturday and Sunday. To access
> > the
> > > stream, go here:
> > > http://web.mit.edu/webcast/wiki/f19/
> > >
> > > We are looking forward to sharing as much of the conference as we can
> > with
> > > you all! To find out what is when, the schedule is here (all times
> > eastern
> > > time):
> > > https://wikiconference.org/wiki/2019/Schedule
> > >
> > > We have a packed schedule with sessions about education, research,
> > > outreach, and more, as well as a special focus/track in our main
> > auditorium
> > > on credibility and reliability in the news and media, which our
> partners
> > at
> > > the Credibility Coalition are assisting with. As we think about the
> > future
> > > of Wikipedia as a reliable source in a world where social media
> platforms
> > > and media networks are struggling with issues of misinformation and
> > > credibility, we hope that this program will be both timely and helpful.
> > >
> > > Let me know if you have any questions and I hope you are able to tune
> in
> > > online.
> > > Phoebe, for WCNA
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > * I use this address for lists; send personal messages to phoebe.ayers
> > 
> > > gmail.com *
> > > ___
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > 
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 


Re: [Wikimedia-l] Greener travel and the ethics of carbon offset for Wikimedia community events

2019-10-11 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
When the WMF wants to "green" itself, the most effective way is to make its
software and operations greener. The software will reduce the need for
energy, the operations ensure that green energy is used. Reducing the need
for energy is an investment that will reduce the overall cost and has an
effect not only in the datacentres of the WMF but also in the transport of
data all over the world. It is only an investment in the time of engineers,
there are no other downsides.

In addition you may consider our travels because we want to be green. The
biggest problem is that as an organisation that NEEDS to bring our
community together, such an aim is like digging a hole we are bound to be
unable to climb out of.
Thanks,
   GerardM


On Fri, 11 Oct 2019 at 13:16, Fæ  wrote:

> In the discussion about the report from the WMF relating to
> sustainability, mention was made of the potential use of carbon
> offset. As part of planning a conference for next year, we could ask
> or require participants to factor in payments for carbon offset. With
> no experience in examining carbon offset projects, we are cautious
> about making any policy to do this, in particular it would be a bad
> blunder if we start paying in to a carbon offset project that turns
> out to be a bad or controversial choice later on.
>
> Has the WMF or Affiliates made any prior choices for carbon offset
> projects, or could the community work out which of the many projects
> might be the most ethically responsible and well governed to choose
> from?
>
> An a bonus to tack on, we have used phrases like ''encouraging greener
> travel options'', which one might interpret as doing things like
> preferring train travel rather than using flights within the same
> country. However if, say, a participant can fly within the country at
> half the cost and get to an event in a couple of hours rather than
> spending several times longer travelling, is it a reasonable/ethical
> approach to just fly for convenience and buy some carbon offset
> "points" (and so flying may well still be significantly cheaper than
> going by train).
>
> Thanks,
> Fae
> --
> fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
>
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 


Re: [Wikimedia-l] [LGBT] Best practices for awarding scholarships

2019-10-07 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
For any and all other conventions those giving a presentation are notable
per the completeness of informing and linking to the presentations. Quite
often people have presented before and only when these presentations are
linked through their presenter it is possible to make the connection.
Thanks,
 GerardM

On Tue, 8 Oct 2019 at 00:05, Jan Ainali  wrote:

> Besides any other aspects, most scholarship recipients are probably not
> notable. When I suggested to create items for all of the Wikimania sessions
> I perceived it as concensus (in the Wikidata telegram group) that they were
> not notable. So unless they already are notable (and already should have an
> item) getting the scholarship will not make them notable.
>
> /Jan Ainali
> (skickat på språng så ursäkta min fåordighet)
>
> On Mon, Oct 7, 2019, 22:39 Lane Rasberry  wrote:
>
> > Hello,
> >
> > I have wished that eventually when people apply for scholarships or even
> > when they attend wiki events they create profiles for themselves in
> > Wikidata so that we could generate visualizations of the demographics of
> > participants.
> >
> > I do not think the wiki movement is quite ready for this, but if we
> > actually want to track and report demographics, doing so in Wikidata is
> > probably the way most natural for the wiki community.
> >
> > On Mon, Oct 7, 2019 at 9:27 AM Fæ  wrote:
> >
> > > Plans for a Wikimedia LGBT+ conference and workshops in 2020 are
> > > moving forward. We would very much like to learn and borrow successful
> > > experiences from other conferences. This conference is expected to be
> > > relatively modest in size, around 50 attendees, and is to be hosted in
> > > Linz, Austria.
> > >
> > > We are planning on opening up applications for scholarships very soon,
> > > to allow several months for early booking of travel tickets and visa
> > > applications where needed. Naturally this means we have to create a
> > > process for assessing applications to a hopefully short and
> > > non-subjective checklist (we are all volunteers after all!).
> > >
> > > Can anyone recommend documented good practices for assessing
> > > applications for travel grants and expenses for similar sized events?
> > > Some issues we have discussed that need to be addressed before
> > > finalizing our policies are:
> > > * Creating a fair assessment process that balances the diversity of
> > > attendees against other metrics like on-project experience, for
> > > example ensuring that we have a healthy gender balance and a wide
> > > geographic representation
> > > * Whether it may be better to prefer the simplicity of assessing for
> > > full scholarships, or whether partial payments are a good way of
> > > ensuring wider access
> > > * How to draw up rules for travel and partial scholarships for folks
> > > planning on making this part of a holiday, as often happens for those
> > > travelling long distances
> > > * When to recommend that specific Wikimedia Affiliates should provide
> > > grants and expenses, which may have additional requirements for
> > > applications and reporting
> > > * How to build in incentives for greener travel options, even where
> > > this may not be the cheapest option
> > >
> > > You can read the conference proposal at
> > >
> > >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:Conference/Kawayashu/Queering_Wikipedia
> > > and everyone is welcome to provide suggestions and feedback on the
> > > discussion page there, if on-wiki editing works better for you than
> > > email. :-)
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > > Fae
> > > --
> > > Wikimedia LGBT+ https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_LGBT
> > > fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
> > >
> > > ___
> > > LGBT mailing list
> > > l...@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/lgbt
> > >
> > > Please treat emails sent to this list as confidential.
> > > Ask senders for permission before forwarding emails off-list.
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Lane Rasberry
> > user:bluerasberry on Wikipedia
> > 206.801.0814
> > l...@bluerasberry.com
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
___
Wikimedia-l 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Community Tech: New Format for 2020 Wishlist Survey

2019-10-07 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
You are entitled to an opinion and you may voice it and so am I. The
Wikimedia Foundation is not a democracy and neither is our movement. This
was done with deliberation. At best our movement is represented in the
board and through its chapters. In essence the main function of the WMF is
to ensure that the servers serve. That they serve optimally. As a
consequence they maintain the code base of MediaWiki and associated
software. As a result there have been several improvements in the
responsiveness of the software. There have been improvements in the amount
of energy our servers use. And frankly, that is their business and it is
none of the business of the community. It is their business because it
translates in the amount the servers take to serve, in the amount it takes
to transport the data and in the amount of energy to display it on a
screen. This reduces costs and it is a good investment as improvements will
serve us well as we move forward. It is also a fiduciary duty of the
Foundation to use the monies it gets well

Given that our movement is not a democracy, I find it operates very much in
a democratic way. At that it functions remarkably well representing the
needs of our communities particularly when you compare it with some nation
states. The Foundation serves its purpose well and even though I am well
known to be critical, if you care to, you will find that I am supportive of
what the Foundation does in the big picture. It is impossible to make
everybody happy and, it does imho a good job within the parameters of what
is possible to them. That includes people in a community who feel abandoned
when they are told to share "their" toys.
Thanks,
   GerardM







On Tue, 8 Oct 2019 at 00:36, Yuri Astrakhan  wrote:

> Gerard, you assume that "my wikipedia" is the only project I participate
> in?  Let me assure you this is not the case.  On the contrary, the last few
> years I mostly contributed to Wikidata and recently - a massive Wiktionary
> lexeme import, and very little to Wikipedia.
>
> That said, I think removing the last actionable and visible community check
> on WMF is a mistake for the reasons I outlined before.  We the community
> (people who contribute to the open knowledge, who actually created the
> knowledge that now generates all those donations) should have at least some
> measurable input into how WMF spends those resources and priorities its
> projects. WMF can say "we believe that free knowledge means we must spend
> 99% of the donations towards global warming, because one cannot have free
> knowledge without the planet on which to live" (a bit of a straw man
> argument, but it illustrates my point) -- and there is no community input
> short of a Global protect or a Spanish-wiki-style revolt where the whole
> community decides to move to a different platform for the feedback to get
> across.
>
> My point is -- in a democracy, if a large crowd is on the streets, the
> government has already messed up. And the way to avoid it is to have a well
> functioning feedback mechanism that can early-on tell WMF what the
> "constituents" would like it to do.  We currently do NOT have any way for
> donators to say what they want the money to be spend on. We currently do
> NOT have any way for community to do the same.  Thus, its a self-driving
> ship -- the inmates are running the asylum.
>
>
> On Sun, Oct 6, 2019 at 12:50 AM Gerard Meijssen  >
> wrote:
>
> > The disappointing you show and the grotesque conclusions are imho based
> in
> > a sense of entitlement. You had it your way for so long and they are now
> > robbing you from your cookies... It is easy to "forget" that a program
> > where a majority decides what is on a "community wish list" favours the
> > biggest projects. It is easy to forget that the WMF has many projects and
> > your Wikipedia is only one out of over 250 and, there are the "other"
> > projects as well.
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 
<mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Ի՞նչն է Ձեզ երջանկացնում այս շաբաթ: / What’s making you happy this week? (Week of 22 September 2019)

2019-10-06 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
Wonderful work congratulations .. I do appreciate your work, in my "Africa
project" I have a record for all the known administrative administrative
entities. It truly is a work in progress and it serves a few purposes.

   - In Wikidata the links for the administrative entities exist and they
   are linked to the one level higher up
   - when the data is used in Listeria lists, the same list may be used for
   multiple Wikipedias, serving multiple languages.
   - it shows the known articles, the difference is straight or italic. It
   is easiest to add names for the higher levels, they will then show in the
   local language properly

The problem with topics that are used a lot but have few devotees is that
it helps when lists like these are available. When you care to, I am happy
to help you set this up for Russia and have the info on more Wikipedias.
Thanks,
GerardM

PS there is a similar project for India

On Sun, 6 Oct 2019 at 13:53, Yaroslav Blanter  wrote:

> Now, what is making me happy this week is that yesterday I completed the
> first step of my long-term project at the English Wikipedia. I finished
> creating articles on all district centers in Russia. Districts are the
> second level administration divisions in Russia (the first level are
> federal subjects), there are slightly less than two thousands of them.
> District centers could be cities, urban-type settlements (urban localities
> toughly equivalent to towns in the UK), and rural localities. When I
> started, all articles on Russian towns were already there, but less than a
> half of urban-type settlements and rural localities which are district
> centers were redlinks. I started creating all of them more than a year ago,
> and yesterday I finished the last one remaining. The articles I created are
> mainly stubs, with some minimal necessary geographical information,
> including population and coordinates, categories, templates etc.
>
> Now I am back to the second step — filling these articles with information.
> This is also something I already started (in fact, I started it the first
> day I edited the English Wikipedia from my new account in 2011), and for
> the time being I have completed writing articles on districts, district
> centers, and urban localities in six (out of 83) federal subjects. This is
> something I am more proud of, a random example of such an article is
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bezhetsky_District . The second step will be
> to bring the remaining articles to a comparable level. Since this is not
> the only thing I am doing on the English Wikipedia, I can easily imagine it
> could take ten years or more. So far nobody else was interested in doing
> this work along with me — which is not very surprising, because the
> information exists mainly in Russian, and knowledge of Russian beyond the
> Google Translate abilities is essential.
>
> A spin-off project I came across and which had to be shelved for a year was
> to create articles about all Ukrainian urban localities — I am almost done
> there, but last time I checked there were still several dozen articles to
> create. I will probably resume it now if there are still some left.
>
> (And another thing I found recently is completely unrelated to the above —
> I just discovered that a lot of metro stations do not have articles on the
> English Wikipedia, and a lot of those which have do not cite any sources. I
> had some fun a couple of weeks ago creating articles on stations of Panama
> Metro, and this week I added sources to the articles on Prague Metro, most
> of which had zero sources previously).
>
> I realize that many people on the list do not edit projects but edit them
> occasionally, and probably do not care much about this obscure type of the
> articles, but I still think it is good not to forget why we are here.
>
> Cheers
> Yaroslav
>
> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 11:44 PM Pine W  wrote:
>
> > Pictures from Armenia
> >
> >
> >-
> >
> >This image
> ><
> >
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mount_Ararat_and_the_Araratian_plain_(cropped).jpg
> > >,
> >which was the Picture of the Day for English Wikipedia on 17
> September,
> >shows Mount Ararat and the Araratian plain seen early morning from
> near
> > the
> >city of Artashat in Armenia. On the center left can be seen the
> historic
> >Khor Virap monastery. The photo was taken by User:Սէրուժ
> ><
> >
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:%D5%8D%D5%A7%D6%80%D5%B8%D6%82%D5%AA
> > >
> >.
> >- Closer view
> ><
> >
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Monasterio_Khor_Virap,_Armenia,_2016-10-01,_DD_25.jpg
> > >
> >of Khor Virap monastery
> ><
> >
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Monasterio_Khor_Virap,_Armenia,_2016-10-01,_DD_25.jpg
> > >,
> >in a photo by User:Poco a poco
> >.
> >
> >
> > Other recent pictures of the day on English Wikipedia and Wikimedia
> Commons
> >
> >
> >   

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Community Tech: New Format for 2020 Wishlist Survey

2019-10-05 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
The disappointing you show and the grotesque conclusions are imho based in
a sense of entitlement. You had it your way for so long and they are now
robbing you from your cookies... It is easy to "forget" that a program
where a majority decides what is on a "community wish list" favours the
biggest projects. It is easy to forget that the WMF has many projects and
your Wikipedia is only one out of over 250 and, there are the "other"
projects as well. So I understand your disappointment and let me give you,
as a solace, my Wikipedia projects that are unlikely to be considered but
will have a positive impact on the quality and usability of Wikipedias

   - Wikidatification of blue red and black links [1] This will improve
   quality on the biggest projects by a 4 to 6% particularly in lists
   - Importing the uncontroversial data from DBpedia [2] This will have a
   quantitative and qualitative impact on the ability of Wikidata to serve
   - Improve the usability of the Wikidata UI [3] This will make Wikidata
   more friendly to other languages then English kick starting labelisation of
   items.
   - Research the effect of Listeria list as a tool to promote diversity of
   content [4] There is another project on Indian Wikipedias that works in a
   similar way but here having the same content in multiple Wikipedias is key.
   - Introduce the "one page wonder" [5] Citations are not read, provide a
   way to read more about subjects and particularly what we have not written
   at the WMF.

I do agree that a one off project is not the best of ideas. A cash rich
organisation like the WMF can afford it to have both a non Wikipedia and a
Wikipedia wish list project a continuous feature of its support.
Thanks,
  GerardM

[1]
https://ultimategerardm.blogspot.com/2016/01/wikipedia-lowest-hanging-fruit-from.html
[2]
https://ultimategerardm.blogspot.com/2019/09/the-lowest-hanging-fruit-in-dbpedia.html
[3]
https://ultimategerardm.blogspot.com/2019/10/what-data-is-wrangled-is-obvious-when.html
[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:GerardM/Africa
[5]
https://ultimategerardm.blogspot.com/2019/08/there-is-much-more-to-read-introducing.html



On Sat, 5 Oct 2019 at 01:44, Yuri Astrakhan  wrote:

> Ilana, restricting wishlist to non-Wikipedia this year is a very sad news.
>
> For many years, wishlist survey was the best way for the community to talk
> back to the foundation, and to try to influence its direction. WMF mostly
> ignored these wishes, yet it was still a place to express, discuss,
> aggregate and vote on what community needed. Big thank-you is due to the
> tiny community tech team that tackled the top 10 items, but that's just ~3%
> of the foundation's employees.
>
> WMF has been steadily separating itself from the community and loosing
> credibility as a guiding force.  Take a look at the last election -- almost
> every candidate has said "no" to the question if WMF is capable of
> deciding/delivering on the direction [1].  In **every** single conversation
> I had with the community members, people expressed doubts with the movement
> strategy project, in some cases even treating it as a joke.
>
> This is a huge problem, and restricting wishlist kills the last effective
> feedback mechanism community had.  Now WMF is fully in control of itself,
> with nearly no checks & balances from the people who created it.
>
> I still believe that if WMF makes it a priority to align most of its
> quarterly/yearly goals with the community wishlist (not just top 10
> positions), we could return to the effective community-governance.
> Otherwise WMF is risking to mirror Red Cross Haiti story [2] -- hundreds of
> millions of $$ donated, and very few buildings actually built.
>
> With great respect to all the people who made Wikis what they are today,
> --[[User:Yurik]]
>
> [1]
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate-selected_Board_seats/2019/Questions#Do_you_believe_the_Wikimedia_Foundation_in_its_present_form_is_the_right_vehicle_for_the_delivery_of_the_strategic_direction?_If_so_why,_and_if_not,_what_might_replace_it
> ?
>
> [2]
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Red_Cross#Disaster_preparedness_and_response
>
> On Fri, Oct 4, 2019 at 5:18 PM Ilana Fried  wrote:
>
> > Hello, everyone!
> >
> > My name is Ilana, and I'm the product manager for the Community Tech
> team.
> > We’re excited to share an update on the Community Tech 2020 Wishlist
> Survey
> > . This
> > will
> > be our fifth annual Community Wishlist Survey, and for this year, we’ve
> > decided to take a different approach. In the past, we've invited people
> to
> > write proposals for any features or fixes that they'd like to see, and
> the
> > Community Tech team has addressed the top ten wishes with the most
> support
> > votes. This year, we're just going to focus on the *non-Wikipedia content
> > projects* (i.e. Wikibooks, Wiktionary, Wikiquote, Commons, Wikisource,
> > 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Foundation joins the global climate strike

2019-09-25 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
For me this is a negative approach, it is all about costs and there is no
consideration of benefits. When you consider a conference with over 100
people, you CANNOT replace it by digital means. You will not have the
conversations made possible by being there in person and getting to meet
other people learn to know them, appreciate them, respect them.
Thanks,
  GerardM

On Wed, 25 Sep 2019 at 07:58, Pine W  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I'm glad that this conversation is going in a positive direction.
>
> I have spent the last several days contemplating that after the events of
> this summer, if I see WMF in any way associated with a surprise, I get a
> stress headache and wonder what new problem has started. If I had a more
> positive view of WMF, while I wouldn't have sent the WMF site "on strike"
> in the way that WMF did it, I'd probably have bypassed this issue and moved
> on to something else.
>
> I'd like to suggest that going forward we change the title of this thread
> to something like "Wikimedia travel, environmental costs, and financial
> costs" to reflect the broader scope of this discussion,
>
> Pine
> ( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine )
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 


Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wiki loves SDGs

2019-09-18 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
Sorry but when you call my comments flippant, you call me flippant.
Thanks,
  GerardM

On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 at 11:06, Andy Mabbett 
wrote:

> On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 at 09:24, Gerard Meijssen 
> wrote:
>
> > Calling someone "flippant" is a direct attack -
>
> Nobody called you flippant. Fæ said "your comments are flippant"
>
> Please stop this, now.
>
> --
> Andy Mabbett
> @pigsonthewing
> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
>
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 
<mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wiki loves SDGs

2019-09-18 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
Calling someone "flippant" is a direct attack - not showing a serious or
respectful attitude - is what I find it means.. When you talk about serious
risk then I am sure that you have done a proper risk analysis.

When you consider risk, there is a balance to be found between the greater
good and the riscs involved. Our conventions are world wide and it is an
explicit aim to share in the sum of all worldwide. Consequently it is not
on to exclude countries for any reason. I will agree that attention is
appropriate when we consider where we are going.

When we do a risk analysis, the greater risk are medical risks because
people may get a whole host of diseases they ignore to be cognisant over. A
risk that we do not communicate. When you then consider the flippant
notions people have about vaccinations, the fact that such travel
advisories are not communicated we have another flippant aspect of our
travels that is not properly handled.

When I consider my own experience re conferences, I fly in to the
conference just in time. I take appropriate rest so that I am at my best at
the conference, I am fully occupied with the conference and when the day is
done I go to the hotel, eat, and prepare for the next day. When the
conference is done it is time to fly home. The point is that the notion of
people on holidays and people at a conference differ in their behaviour and
therefore their risks differ considerably. When people go to our conference
in Tunis or anywhere it is not a holiday, they tend to particularly engage
with people at the conference and this is yet another aspect mitigating the
risk.

I agree with you that Tunisia is not paradise. Your attacking style however
is your choice but you forgot to do the basics. For me it follows that your
singular point of view gets in the way what we aim to achieve, you may call
me flippant and, that says more about you than about me.
Thanks,
 GerardM





On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 at 08:18, Fæ  wrote:

> Gerard, your comments are flippant and deflect from the serious risk
> that our volunteers and employees are being subject to.
>
> Tunis is unsafe for LGBT+ people. None of our LGBT+ volunteers or
> employees should travel to tunis.
>
> LGBT+ travellers risk 3 years in prison, not in theory, in practice
> foreign tourists are being held in prison. The police are actively
> setting up sting operations, having used Grindr to entrap gay men,
> search their phones to discover who their friends are and any LGBT+
> material, then prosecute them for being homosexuals. Again not theory,
> this is evidence presented in the Tunis courts during prosecution. I
> and other Wikimedians at events have used Grindr and other LGBT+
> social networks during Wikimedia conferences to talk to each other. I
> and other Wikimedians have openly discussed LGBT+ topics on Wikimedia
> public projects, this material is hardly secret from the Tunis police,
> neither should the WMF or any other Affiliate ever put LGBT+
> volunteers in a position where we have to pretend not to be LGBT+.
>
> The USA is unwelcoming, with trans people likely to be abused or
> humiliated during immigration and having their digital data stolen by
> the NSA, but they are not subject to the threat of a 3 year prison
> sentence solely for being LGBT+.
>
> Thanks,
> Fae
> --
> fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
> WM-LGBT+ https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_LGBT+
>
> On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 at 06:42, Gerard Meijssen 
> wrote:
> >
> > Hoi,
> > To be honest, there are great reasons not to having meetings in the
> United
> > States for similar reasons. The notion of conversion of homosexuality is
> > alive and well, even though people who care to look at the science know
> > that it does not work. The murder rate among LGBTI people is sky high.
> The
> > country is highly discriminatory, not only because of race. The USA is a
> > country at war, the numbers show why; more USA civilians die because of
> gun
> > violence than do USA military personnel. The ease whereby the murder on
> > women is explained away with arguments like "she was at the wrong time at
> > the wrong place" and "boys will be boys".
> >
> > The point, when you advocate against countries, there is hardly anywhere
> > where your arguments don't hold. The objective is to educate and where we
> > stay away our message will not be heard. The Dutch "Zwarte Piet" will no
> > longer be black because of the foreign imposition of what is the
> > discriminatory practice "blackface" in the USA. But I digress. We should
> > engage all over the world particularly when the SDG are topical because
> > what global effect will it have when we ostracise countries like Tun

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wiki loves SDGs

2019-09-17 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
To be honest, there are great reasons not to having meetings in the United
States for similar reasons. The notion of conversion of homosexuality is
alive and well, even though people who care to look at the science know
that it does not work. The murder rate among LGBTI people is sky high. The
country is highly discriminatory, not only because of race. The USA is a
country at war, the numbers show why; more USA civilians die because of gun
violence than do USA military personnel. The ease whereby the murder on
women is explained away with arguments like "she was at the wrong time at
the wrong place" and "boys will be boys".

The point, when you advocate against countries, there is hardly anywhere
where your arguments don't hold. The objective is to educate and where we
stay away our message will not be heard. The Dutch "Zwarte Piet" will no
longer be black because of the foreign imposition of what is the
discriminatory practice "blackface" in the USA. But I digress. We should
engage all over the world particularly when the SDG are topical because
what global effect will it have when we ostracise countries like Tunesia or
the USA?

On Tue, 17 Sep 2019 at 23:33, Fæ  wrote:

> It astonishing that the WMF and affiliates are supporting a conference
> in Tunis. The country is not safe for LGBT+ people, including
> tourists, despite what promotional holiday and travel websites imply.
>
> I urge anyone who is LGBT+ and booked to go to this conference,
> including WMF employees, please reconsider and cancel your attendance.
> You will be putting yourself at unnecessary risk.
>
> It speaks volumes that on the one hand the WMF wishes to fund travel
> and accommodation for a diversity working group, but then chooses to
> hold the meetings in a country where this year there are cases of the
> courts officially forcing anal examinations on suspected homosexuals
> to "prove" they are homosexuals, deny the existence of trans people,
> and where there has been a case of a foreign tourist going to prison
> for their homosexuality.
>
> Thanks,
> Fae
> --
> fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
> WM-LGBT+ https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_LGBT+
>
> On Tue, 17 Sep 2019 at 20:26, Ad Huikeshoven  wrote:
> >
> > tl;dr Wikipedia can engage millions, billions of people to achieve the
> > Sustainable Development Goals by 2030
> >
> > Wikimedians and Wikipedians around the world have been involved with
> > Wikimedia 2030 since 2015. The strategic direction is to build the
> > essential infrastructure of the ecosystem of free knowledge. Back in
> 2015 a
> > total of 193 members of the United Nations agreed to the 17 Sustainable
> > Developments Goals to be reached by the year 2030. Last August many of
> you
> > were in Stockholm, Sweden for Wikimania. The theme this year was
> “Stronger
> > Together: Wikimedia, Free Knowledge and the Sustainable Development
> > Goals”.[1]
> >
> > Michael Edson, founder and director of UN Live, the Museum of the UN in
> > Kopenhagen, Denmark held a keynote and asked Wikipedia for help. The UN
> > isn’t able to reach millions, billions of people on its own to have them
> > work on achieving the SDGs.[2] Wikipedia reaches half a billion people
> each
> > month. Millions of people have contributed to Wikipedia.
> >
> > Of course Wikipedia can spread the knowledge about the SDGs and how to
> > solve them in each country, and in each language. We can make a very good
> > case for an “open access knowledge sharing project related to the
> > Sustainable Development Goals that uses Wikipedia as a tool”. A lot of
> > knowledge will have to be gathered locally about local solutions to local
> > problems. We as a free knowledge movement have done so succesfully in the
> > past. We can do succesfully now.
> >
> > The one big reason to step upto the challenge is in the vision of the
> > movement: “Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely
> > share in the sum of all knowledge.” Imagine every single human having
> > access to how to solve each of the Sustainable Development Goals in their
> > locality, in their language.[3]
> >
> > Another reason is part of our mission: to empower and engage people
> around
> > the world to collect and develop educational content.[4] Might people
> > involved with the movement be able to educate people why and how to solve
> > global goals locally?
> >
> > Knowledge about SDGs is just a small subset of all knowledge. It would
> be a
> > big step for mankind to have exactly that knowledge available well before
> > the year 2030.[5] It won’t impede anyone to collect and share knowledge
> > outside that subset, however.
> >
> > To make it happen imagine having a small office with a handful dedicated
> > people in each country. People with the capacity to build partnerships
> with
> > NGO’s, universities, research institutions, government agencies, groups
> of
> > citizens who are already involved with the SDGs.[6] People with the

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Community feedback and next steps on movement brand proposal

2019-09-07 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
The right question here: how have you supported the sister projects in the
past. The follow question: Branding is about getting attention for
products. How will the sister projects benefit from more attention to
Wikipedia?

The point is we have not marketed the products from sister projects. We
could have and the results would have been wildly important and relevant to
a mission where we aim to share in the sum of all knowledge.
Thanks,
   GerardM

On Sat, 7 Sep 2019 at 13:40, Lucas Werkmeister 
wrote:

> On 06.09.19 05:49, Zack McCune wrote:
> >3.
> >
> >Supporting sister projects
>
> I am extremely wary of this phrasing. Instead of a family of projects
> working together towards a shared goal, to me this invokes the image of
> a big, central Wikipedia who graciously supports the other,
> insignificant projects out of the goodness of her heart. As a Wikidata
> editor, that is not how I want my relation to this movement characterized.
>
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 


Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Draft recommendations are here!

2019-08-24 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
Research on the acquisition of new volunteers shows that most new people
drop out because of perceived hostility. This excercise of formulating a
strategy for 2030 aims to address this among other objectives. It follows
that when new volunteers that stick is an important objective, the status
quo cannot be maintained. When people threaten to leave because the status
quo, their power base is threatened, they are welcome to take a leave of
absence and as Jan-Bart said in them days we hope they will reconsider.

Mind you, I am not a fan-boy of the new strategy. I was in Stockholm and I
made several points where I think the strategy fails.

The problem that I have with "advocates for the community" is that like
lawyers they do not necessarily self include and certainly take no
responsiblity. Their point would be more clear when they say "I will leave
our community because... ". Our community will be better off when some bad
apples but "pillars of the community" leave. Our community would be better
off when we argue in stead of state opinions. Let's be on point and to the
point.
Thanks,
  GerardM

On Sat, 24 Aug 2019 at 22:39, Jeff Hawke  wrote:

> Gerard
>
> A good point.  The "community" in one sense is simply the collection of all
> those people who happen over any given time period to be working for the
> WMF for free.  In another sense, it is the structures and cultures found on
> the various projects.  I think my question could best have been phrased in
> terms of the first meaning -- that is, does the WMF Board expect that after
> these recommendations are enacted, and, as we may reasonably predict, a
> large proportion of the current volunteers cease their invlvement, that
> there will be a sufficient number of continuing and new volunteers to
> sustain the projects in the way the WMF desires.  It seems odd that the
> Board would not have even begun to consider this question, but it is of
> course for them and not for us to decide.
>
> Jeff
>
> On Sat, Aug 24, 2019 at 7:10 PM Gerard Meijssen  >
> wrote:
>
> > Hoi,
> > Your notion of community is what I question. It is in your refusal of
> > accepting that English Wikipedia is not a safe place, in your notion that
> > the WMF failed, you fail to accept that it is the WMF that is the arbiter
> > of last resort. You also fail to appreciate that the Wikimedia Foundation
> > is not a democracy. Only some of the board members are elected by the
> > community. The notion that elected officials are beholden to the
> electorate
> > has been spectacularly put on display in the United States so no they are
> > not beholden to you nor me.
> >
> > "We" do not consider facts, we hide behind opinions. The result is that
> our
> > projects could do so much better once opinions are left for what they are
> > in the face of proven facts. We claim our references are important but
> > references to our behaviour have been reduced to who said what, where and
> > when.
> >
> > Maybe the recommendations of working groups are not better in your
> opinion
> > nor mine. In the end it does not matter because there is so much that
> needs
> > an overhaul that defensive postures are exactly the behaviour that is
> best
> > to be disregarded. What is needed is accepting the need for change,
> > consider what the recommendations are and consider them along the lines
> of
> > how we could improve upon them.
> > Thanks
> >   GerardM
> >
> > On Sat, 24 Aug 2019 at 19:20, Peter Southwood <
> > peter.southw...@telkomsa.net>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Gerard,
> > > It is not clear who you are addressing here, but I am going to assume
> it
> > > is Benjamin, who made the original claim. It is a fair question, and
> some
> > > clarification would be welcome.
> > > English Wikipedia may have failed to provide a safe environment, but
> the
> > > WMF has failed possibly even more "spectacularly", and the
> > recommendations
> > > of the Working Group do not appear to be likely to be any better or
> more
> > > effective.
> > > Cheers,
> > > Peter
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On
> > > Behalf Of Gerard Meijssen
> > > Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2019 6:29 PM
> > > To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Draft recommendations are
> > > here!
> > >
> > > Hoi,
> > > May I ask what you mean with "the" community? If anything the Wikimedia
> > 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Draft recommendations are here!

2019-08-24 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
When you are not answerable for the mails you send, I might agree. I do not
put words in your mouth, you were quite capable of doing that yourself.
Thanks,
   GerardM

On Sat, 24 Aug 2019 at 22:02, Peter Southwood 
wrote:

> Gerard,
> My notion of community depends on context. The context of this thread was
> not defined by me,  so why do you not address your question to the person
> who brought it up? (Benjamin)
> Please refrain from telling me what I accept or do not accept, I am aware
> of my own thoughts and opinions and find your attempts to define my
> opinions offensive, as you are necessarily ignorant of what I have not
> stated. It is entirely obvious that the WMF is not a democracy, I have
> never claimed that they were, or even that they should be. The WMF has had
> mixed success in its endeavours. Some things they do well. Communicating
> with English Wikipedia on some aspects of trust and safety, policy and
> software changes is a thing they have not done well. This is my opinion.
> Yours may differ. I will give your opinion the consideration it deserves
> when it is explained logically, politely, and referring to verifiable
> facts. The farcical state of some elected governments and the
> irresponsibility of the elected is extremely familiar to me, as I live in a
> state where the elected government has continuously failed to deliver on
> their promises and on the laws they make (Not the USA, by the way, other
> countries also have embarrassing elected officials). That does not relieve
> other elected bodies or persons of their responsibilities. Being appointed
> to a position also does not relieve a person of their responsibility to do
> due diligence in governing the institution they gave been appointed to
> govern. Failure to take known risks into account is negligence, wherever a
> person is given the responsibility to direct an organisation following a
> constitution which requires them to do so. Boards are usually elected and
> appointed to take the responsibility to govern with due diligence and to
> avoid where possible damaging the organisation. I have reasonable
> confidence that the board will do its job. I do not have confidence in the
> ability of some of the working groups to come up with workable solutions to
> the various problems of the various projects.
> There is a need for change, but the need is for carefully considered
> change that does not unduly damage the projects, not a mixed bag of
> measures which includes poorly considered and poorly articulated
> recommendations that have been put together by people who do not appear to
> wish to communicate with those who will be affected by their
> recommendations. Here are some friendly suggestions: Please read my words
> carefully and try to understand my points, and refrain from assigning
> motives and opinions to me if I have not claimed them for myself, or when
> they are based on the words of other people. Make sure you are addressing
> the relevant person. Ask for clarification if you need it. Do not put words
> into my mouth.
> Peter
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On
> Behalf Of Gerard Meijssen
> Sent: 24 August 2019 20:10
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Draft recommendations are
> here!
>
> Hoi,
> Your notion of community is what I question. It is in your refusal of
> accepting that English Wikipedia is not a safe place, in your notion that
> the WMF failed, you fail to accept that it is the WMF that is the arbiter
> of last resort. You also fail to appreciate that the Wikimedia Foundation
> is not a democracy. Only some of the board members are elected by the
> community. The notion that elected officials are beholden to the electorate
> has been spectacularly put on display in the United States so no they are
> not beholden to you nor me.
>
> "We" do not consider facts, we hide behind opinions. The result is that our
> projects could do so much better once opinions are left for what they are
> in the face of proven facts. We claim our references are important but
> references to our behaviour have been reduced to who said what, where and
> when.
>
> Maybe the recommendations of working groups are not better in your opinion
> nor mine. In the end it does not matter because there is so much that needs
> an overhaul that defensive postures are exactly the behaviour that is best
> to be disregarded. What is needed is accepting the need for change,
> consider what the recommendations are and consider them along the lines of
> how we could improve upon them.
> Thanks
>   GerardM
>
> On Sat, 24 Aug 2019 at 19:20, Peter Southwood <
> peter.southw...@telkom

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Draft recommendations are here!

2019-08-24 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
Your notion of community is what I question. It is in your refusal of
accepting that English Wikipedia is not a safe place, in your notion that
the WMF failed, you fail to accept that it is the WMF that is the arbiter
of last resort. You also fail to appreciate that the Wikimedia Foundation
is not a democracy. Only some of the board members are elected by the
community. The notion that elected officials are beholden to the electorate
has been spectacularly put on display in the United States so no they are
not beholden to you nor me.

"We" do not consider facts, we hide behind opinions. The result is that our
projects could do so much better once opinions are left for what they are
in the face of proven facts. We claim our references are important but
references to our behaviour have been reduced to who said what, where and
when.

Maybe the recommendations of working groups are not better in your opinion
nor mine. In the end it does not matter because there is so much that needs
an overhaul that defensive postures are exactly the behaviour that is best
to be disregarded. What is needed is accepting the need for change,
consider what the recommendations are and consider them along the lines of
how we could improve upon them.
Thanks
  GerardM

On Sat, 24 Aug 2019 at 19:20, Peter Southwood 
wrote:

> Gerard,
> It is not clear who you are addressing here, but I am going to assume it
> is Benjamin, who made the original claim. It is a fair question, and some
> clarification would be welcome.
> English Wikipedia may have failed to provide a safe environment, but the
> WMF has failed possibly even more "spectacularly", and the recommendations
> of the Working Group do not appear to be likely to be any better or more
> effective.
> Cheers,
> Peter
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On
> Behalf Of Gerard Meijssen
> Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2019 6:29 PM
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Draft recommendations are
> here!
>
> Hoi,
> May I ask what you mean with "the" community? If anything the Wikimedia
> community exists in some 300 parts and every parts has as many distinct
> opinions. There are essential conflicts of interest, by some there is a
> sense of entitlement, either based on possession or based on promises made.
>
> In many ways, what Jan-Bart wrote at the time makes as much sense then as
> it made now. The model of self governance within a project works up to a
> point but when it is then pointed out to it where it fails to meet
> expectations, like it does when it is tasked to provide a safe environment,
> it fails spectacularly. There is plenty of evidence showing how the well
> fortified positions the English Wikipedia community among others has taken,
> fails our readers in providing the best possible quality.
>
> So what community and why should we bother when it is not even that great
> as an abstraction.
> Thanks,
>   GerardM
>
> On Sat, 24 Aug 2019 at 17:48, Peter Southwood <
> peter.southw...@telkomsa.net>
> wrote:
>
> > Benjamin,
> > Has the board or any member of the board made any statement suggesting
> > that the board might overrule the community in this matter?
> > Cheers,
> > Peter
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On
> > Behalf Of Benjamin Ikuta
> > Sent: 24 August 2019 07:12
> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Draft recommendations are
> > here!
> >
> >
> >
> > It is disturbing that you would even consider overriding the community in
> > such a massive way.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Aug 23, 2019, at 9:44 PM, James Heilman  wrote:
> >
> > > The board will be discussing this of course. We do not have a group
> > > position at this point in time.
> > >
> > > J
> > >
> > > On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 12:47 PM Jeff Hawke 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >> James
> > >>
> > >> Thanks for that.  As a member of the Board, would you clarify the
> > Board's
> > >> position on whether it is prepared to see the final Recommendations
> > >> implemented irrespective of any disagreement from the community?
> > >>
> > >> Jeff
> > >>
> > >> On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 12:05 PM James Heilman 
> > wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> I for one do not agree with Jan-Bart's prior position.
> > >>>
> > >>> James
> > >>>
> > >>> On 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Draft recommendations are here!

2019-08-24 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
May I ask what you mean with "the" community? If anything the Wikimedia
community exists in some 300 parts and every parts has as many distinct
opinions. There are essential conflicts of interest, by some there is a
sense of entitlement, either based on possession or based on promises made.

In many ways, what Jan-Bart wrote at the time makes as much sense then as
it made now. The model of self governance within a project works up to a
point but when it is then pointed out to it where it fails to meet
expectations, like it does when it is tasked to provide a safe environment,
it fails spectacularly. There is plenty of evidence showing how the well
fortified positions the English Wikipedia community among others has taken,
fails our readers in providing the best possible quality.

So what community and why should we bother when it is not even that great
as an abstraction.
Thanks,
  GerardM

On Sat, 24 Aug 2019 at 17:48, Peter Southwood 
wrote:

> Benjamin,
> Has the board or any member of the board made any statement suggesting
> that the board might overrule the community in this matter?
> Cheers,
> Peter
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On
> Behalf Of Benjamin Ikuta
> Sent: 24 August 2019 07:12
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Draft recommendations are
> here!
>
>
>
> It is disturbing that you would even consider overriding the community in
> such a massive way.
>
>
>
> On Aug 23, 2019, at 9:44 PM, James Heilman  wrote:
>
> > The board will be discussing this of course. We do not have a group
> > position at this point in time.
> >
> > J
> >
> > On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 12:47 PM Jeff Hawke 
> wrote:
> >
> >> James
> >>
> >> Thanks for that.  As a member of the Board, would you clarify the
> Board's
> >> position on whether it is prepared to see the final Recommendations
> >> implemented irrespective of any disagreement from the community?
> >>
> >> Jeff
> >>
> >> On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 12:05 PM James Heilman 
> wrote:
> >>
> >>> I for one do not agree with Jan-Bart's prior position.
> >>>
> >>> James
> >>>
> >>> On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 4:40 AM Jeff Hawke 
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
>  Paulo,
> 
>  You suggest that "things will not get pretty if the Wikimedia
> community
>  does not approve some of the recommendations".  You may recall that
> >> just
>  five years ago, Jan-Bart de Vreede, then chair of the WMF Board,
> >>> expressed
>  the opinion
> 
> 
> >>>
> >>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:LilaTretikov_(WMF)=prev=9585319
>  over
>  a much less dramatic change.
> 
> > All of this is going to require change, change that might not be
>  acceptable to some of you. I hope that all of you will be a part of
> >> this
>  next step in our evolution. But I understand that if you decide to
> >> take a
>  wiki-break, that might be the way things have to be. Even so, you have
> >> to
>  let the Foundation do its work and allow us all to take that next step
> >>> when
>  needed. I can only hope that your break is temporary, and that you
> will
>  return when the time is right.
> 
>  I presume this is a good summary of the WMF position today.
> 
>  Jeff
> 
>  On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 12:06 AM Paulo Santos Perneta <
>  paulospern...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > If I've well understood the timeline, all input from the Wikimedia
> > community ceases in mid September. Then it's all defined by the WGs
> >>> 8and
> > their advisors), and eventually decided upon by the BoT around
> >>> December.
> > Therefore, after 15 September or so, the Wikimedia community will
> >> only
> >>> be
> > dealing with those recommendations again when they are already in the
> > process of implementation.
> >
> > It's quite easy to predict that things will not get pretty if the
>  Wikimedia
> > community does not approve some of the recommendations that pass all
> >>> the
> > way till implementation phase.
> >
> > Paulo
> >
> > Nicole Ebber  escreveu no dia quinta,
> > 22/08/2019
> > à(s) 11:58:
> >
> >> Dear all,
> >>
> >> Thank you for your engagement and input. It’s been great seeing so
> >>> much
> >> attention on movement strategy and collaborative efforts for
> >> building
>  our
> >> future. Here are a couple of follow up responses and
> >> clarifications.
> >>
> >> DRAFTS
> >> As pointed out in my previous email, the documents we recently
> >> shared
>  are
> >> recommendation drafts. They are not final, and not complete, but
>  working
> >> documents that are currently being refined by the working groups.
> >>> Some
> >> answers still read like stubs that are longing for further
> >>> development,
> >> others are very detailed and will become more focused over the next
> 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fram en.wp office yearlock block

2019-07-04 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
Sorry but there is no reflection and all I read is an apologist telling us
that English Wikipedia is the best there is. It is not, not by far. What is
thought of as the English Wikipedia community are the old hands steeped in
the arcane lore that are the policies that defend the status quo and keep
others out. Just consider, I read a thread where it was put that a Jess
Wade would not make administrator because (all kinds of repressive
arguments that make my skin crawl). Just consider, I have formulated as a
problem that 6% of list items in English Wikipedia refer to false friends
and or do not link to the right article. I have formulated a solution that
involves Wikidata and find that it is not even considered. Just consider,
in an arbcom case where I have a beef I included my point of view. It was
not accepted because it did not comply with a set format and was threatened
that I could be banned because (I did not get the legalese).

English Wikipedia is toxic and we can lose a substantial number of people
when the result is that we open up and allow for new, other arguments. It
is toxic because it considers itself complete as it is and consequently
does a substandard job in "sharing the sum of all knowledge".

Keeping things as they were is not an option.
Thanks,
GerardM

On Fri, 5 Jul 2019 at 01:27, Nathan  wrote:

> >
> >
> >  Also, I believe that the
> > near-miracle of English Wikipedia should be tended with great care, and
> > that the scars from this incident will be with us for a long time.
> >
> > Pine
> > ( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine )
> > 
>
>
>
> I think there's a kernel here of something really important. An argument
> can be made (and has been, I'm sure) that the English Wikipedia is a modern
> Wonder of the World. It's a towering achievement of technology and
> humanity. It's humanity means that, like all of our towering achievements,
> it can't escape our flaws. The world is full of toxic people. Released from
> the risk of being iced out of society or punched in the face, they let that
> toxicity reign on the Internet and all of its spaces - including Wikipedia.
> The idea that the WMF or the Wikipedia community is going to solve this
> problem is earnest and well-meaning but foolish.
>
> Yet Wikipedia was brought into being despite the toxicity, and has survived
> and thrived all this time alongside the struggles of human interaction. So
> maybe what we really need is for the WMF to be hands off and let the forces
> that created this "miracle" keep doing their work, and for the community of
> the English Wikipedia to keep struggling but with the practical realization
> that success means just keeping temps below a rolling boil.
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 


Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fram en.wp office yearlock block

2019-07-04 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
Let me be simple. A friend of mine was banned for life by the WMF, there
was no room for discussion so the notion that this is a first is not
accurate.

It is well known that English Wikipedia is considered a toxic environment
This has been known by all for a very long time. The fact of the matter is
that the arbitration committee is not able to do something about it. There
are many considerations possible but it is not this committee that is at
fault it is the community itself. Many people are indignant that they are
told that it has to stop. FRAM may be the "victim" in this but hey why not
him? A point is being made.

Your notion of toxic behaviour of the WMF is problematic. The point is that
English Wikipedia behaviour is to change. It did not help that you all were
told to mend your ways, now reflect and come up with what you consider will
make for a more friendly environment. The good news is, you are not in a
position that you can ignore this. The notion that the WMF has to bring you
new rules is imho wrong. Roll your own.
Thanks,
   GerardMM



On Thu, 4 Jul 2019 at 15:39, WereSpielChequers 
wrote:

> Agreeing/asserting that the English Language Wikipedia has a toxic editing
> environment is easy. Defining the problem and suggesting solutions has
> historically been rather more difficult. Just watch the latest threads at
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Civility for examples.
>
> On the English Wikipedia this is clearer than on some projects because we
> have annual Arbcom elections, and a candidate can always criticise the
> sitting arbs by saying "of the cases accepted and rejected over the last
> year or two, ignoring those where we know there was private information,
> these are the cases where I would have differed from the existing arbs. I
> would have voted to accept cases , and  and
> these are the ones where i would have supported a stricter sanction ,
> z"
>
> Alternatively you can make suggestions as to how you would change the
> community to make it a less toxic environment, in the past I have argued
> for, among other things:
>
>
>1. A different way of handling edit warring that doesn't go so quickly
>to blocks.
>2. A pause in the speedy deletion process for goodfaith article
>creations so G3 and G10 would still be deleted as quickly as admins find
>them but A7s could stick around for at least 24 hours
>3. Software changes to resolve more edit conflicts without losing edits.
>
>
> None of these have been rejected because people actually want a toxic
> environment. But people have different definitions of toxicity, for example
> some people think that everyone who loses an edit due to an edit conflict
> understands that this is an IT problem, and are unaware of incidents where
> people have assumed that this is conflict with the person whose edit one
> the conflict. Others just don't see deletionism as toxic, some deletionists
> even consider inclusionism toxic and get upset at editors who decline
> deletion tags that are almost but not quite correct.
>
> My suspicion is that the intersection of "everything you submit may be
> ruthlessly edited" a large community where you frequently encounter people
> you haven't dealt with before, cultural nuances between different versions
> of English and a large proportion of people who are not editing in their
> native language makes the English Wikipedia less congenial than some other
> Wikis. For example, someone who comes from a straight talking culture might
> think me as euphemistic and possibly sarcastic, even when I think I'm being
> nuanced and diplomatic.
>
> Specifically in the case of the Fram ban, the WMF should have communicated
> before their first 12 month block the specific behaviours that the WMF
> would no longer tolerate on EN Wikipedia. At least part of their problem
> was that their first 12 month ban was for undisclosed reasons. Some
> Wikipedians didn't want the WMF setting new behavioural rules on Wikipedia.
> But other Wikipedians might have agreed with  the WMF if only we knew what
> the new rules were. It is a bit like enforcing speed limits, I might
> support lowering the speed limits where I live, but I wouldn't support
> empowering a traffic cop to issue traffic fines for an undisclosed reason
> where I and other motorists were having to speculate whether there was now
> an invisible but enforced stop sign at junction x, or an invisible but
> enforced parking restriction on street y. It is deeply ironic that in
> trying to combat toxic behaviour the WMF itself behaved in a  toxic way.
>
> Jonathan
>
>
> > > Hoi,
> > > I am astounded that you write as if the WMF is at fault in this. What I
> > > find is that in stead of pointing to the WMF, it is first and foremost
> > the
> > > community of the English Wikipedia who accepted the unacceptable and
> > > finally has to deal with consequences. True to form, no reflection on
> > en.wp
> > > 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fram en.wp office yearlock block

2019-07-04 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
I am astounded that you write as if the WMF is at fault in this. What I
find is that in stead of pointing to the WMF, it is first and foremost the
community of the English Wikipedia who accepted the unacceptable and
finally has to deal with consequences. True to form, no reflection on en.wp
practices and the blame is conveniently put elsewhere.
Thanks,
 GerardM

On Thu, 4 Jul 2019 at 10:48, Peter Southwood 
wrote:

> Gerard,
> Is your response to my email intended to have any relevance to my
> statement? If so please clarify.
> Cheers,
> Peter
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On
> Behalf Of Gerard Meijssen
> Sent: 04 July 2019 09:59
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fram en.wp office yearlock block
>
> Hoi,
> The community is responsible for its actions. It is widely acknowledged
> that the English Wikipedia is a toxic environment. The community has not
> taken this on board, has not fixed the damage. At some stage an inflection
> point exists where the community if forced to reflect. Sadly, the English
> Wikipedia has proven to be unable to get its house in order nor does it
> show reflection that give hope for a better future.
> Thanks,
>GerardM
>
> On Thu, 4 Jul 2019 at 09:32, Peter Southwood  >
> wrote:
>
> > The board does not manage WMF. It is not their fault when a department
> > does something stupid if they had no warning that it was likely to
> happen.
> > People who signed off on the ban decision may have reason to apologise,
> > others not.  The board is responsible for ensuring that the damage is
> fixed
> > and taking reasonably practicable precautions for preventing a
> recurrence.
> > Due diligence is their duty, not exhaustive diligence or micromanagement.
> > Cheers, Peter
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On
> > Behalf Of Pine W
> > Sent: Wednesday, July 3, 2019 10:29 PM
> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fram en.wp office yearlock block
> >
> >  Hello Wikimedia-l colleagues,
> >
> > I hope that your day is going well.
> >
> > There are some updates regarding the topics that we are discussing in
> this
> > thread. I am writing this email in a personal capacity.
> >
> > As a reminder, the English Wikipedia Arbitration Committee published an
> > open letter on 30 June that was directed to the WMF Board
> > <
> >
> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Community_response_to_the_Wikimedia_Foundation%27s_ban_of_Fram=904149076=904147649
> > >.
> > I will share a few quotes from that statement before providing some
> > updates, and finally making some personal comments.
> >
> > I am retaining the font styles that Arbcom used in its letter.
> >
> > * "As of 30 June, two bureaucrats, 18 administrators, an ArbCom clerk,
> and
> > a number of other editors have resigned their positions and/or retired
> from
> > Wikipedia editing in relation to this issue."
> >
> > * "If Fram’s ban—an unappealable sanction issued from above with no
> > community consultation—represents the WMF’s new strategy for dealing with
> > harassment on the English Wikipedia, it is one that is fundamentally
> > misaligned with the Wikimedia movement’s principles of openness,
> consensus,
> > and self-governance."
> >
> > * "*We ask that the WMF commits to leaving behavioural complaints
> > pertaining solely to the English Wikipedia to established local
> processes.*
> > Those unsuitable for public discussion should be referred to the
> > Arbitration Committee. We will solicit comment from the community and the
> > WMF to develop clear procedures for dealing with confidential allegations
> > of harassment, based on the existing provision for private hearings in
> the
> > arbitration policy. Complaints that can be discussed publicly should be
> > referred to an appropriate community dispute resolution process. If the
> > Trust & Safety team seeks to assume responsibility for these cases, they
> > should do so by proposing an amendment to the arbitration policy, or an
> > equivalent process of community consensus-building. Otherwise, we would
> > appreciate the WMF’s continued support in improving our response to
> > harassment and hostility on the English Wikipedia
> >
> > * "We feel strongly that this commitment is necessary for the Arbitration
> > Committee to continue to perform the role it is assigned by the En

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fram en.wp office yearlock block

2019-07-04 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
The community is responsible for its actions. It is widely acknowledged
that the English Wikipedia is a toxic environment. The community has not
taken this on board, has not fixed the damage. At some stage an inflection
point exists where the community if forced to reflect. Sadly, the English
Wikipedia has proven to be unable to get its house in order nor does it
show reflection that give hope for a better future.
Thanks,
   GerardM

On Thu, 4 Jul 2019 at 09:32, Peter Southwood 
wrote:

> The board does not manage WMF. It is not their fault when a department
> does something stupid if they had no warning that it was likely to happen.
> People who signed off on the ban decision may have reason to apologise,
> others not.  The board is responsible for ensuring that the damage is fixed
> and taking reasonably practicable precautions for preventing a recurrence.
> Due diligence is their duty, not exhaustive diligence or micromanagement.
> Cheers, Peter
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On
> Behalf Of Pine W
> Sent: Wednesday, July 3, 2019 10:29 PM
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fram en.wp office yearlock block
>
>  Hello Wikimedia-l colleagues,
>
> I hope that your day is going well.
>
> There are some updates regarding the topics that we are discussing in this
> thread. I am writing this email in a personal capacity.
>
> As a reminder, the English Wikipedia Arbitration Committee published an
> open letter on 30 June that was directed to the WMF Board
> <
> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Community_response_to_the_Wikimedia_Foundation%27s_ban_of_Fram=904149076=904147649
> >.
> I will share a few quotes from that statement before providing some
> updates, and finally making some personal comments.
>
> I am retaining the font styles that Arbcom used in its letter.
>
> * "As of 30 June, two bureaucrats, 18 administrators, an ArbCom clerk, and
> a number of other editors have resigned their positions and/or retired from
> Wikipedia editing in relation to this issue."
>
> * "If Fram’s ban—an unappealable sanction issued from above with no
> community consultation—represents the WMF’s new strategy for dealing with
> harassment on the English Wikipedia, it is one that is fundamentally
> misaligned with the Wikimedia movement’s principles of openness, consensus,
> and self-governance."
>
> * "*We ask that the WMF commits to leaving behavioural complaints
> pertaining solely to the English Wikipedia to established local processes.*
> Those unsuitable for public discussion should be referred to the
> Arbitration Committee. We will solicit comment from the community and the
> WMF to develop clear procedures for dealing with confidential allegations
> of harassment, based on the existing provision for private hearings in the
> arbitration policy. Complaints that can be discussed publicly should be
> referred to an appropriate community dispute resolution process. If the
> Trust & Safety team seeks to assume responsibility for these cases, they
> should do so by proposing an amendment to the arbitration policy, or an
> equivalent process of community consensus-building. Otherwise, we would
> appreciate the WMF’s continued support in improving our response to
> harassment and hostility on the English Wikipedia
>
> * "We feel strongly that this commitment is necessary for the Arbitration
> Committee to continue to perform the role it is assigned by the English
> Wikipedia community. If we are unable to find a satisfactory resolution, at
> least four members of the committee have expressed the intention to
> resign."
>
> The following are more recent updates.
>
> * The WMF Board has made a statement
> <
> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Community_response_to_the_Wikimedia_Foundation%27s_ban_of_Fram=904552644=904551569
> >
>
> * The WMF Executive Director (Katherine Maher) has also made a statement
> <
> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Katherine_(WMF)=904607134=904605950
> >
> .
>
> My personal comments follow.
>
> I appreciate the WMF Executive Director's statement. I think that her
> statement is a good starting point for further communications between the
> staff and the community, particularly the English Wikipedia community.
>
> I was hoping for a statement from the WMF Board that was humble and
> apologetic regarding recent disruption that has stressed many people in the
> community, led to numerous resignations, and consumed countless hours of
> volunteers' valuable time. Perhaps I overlooked them, but I do not see the
> words "apology", "sorry", "regret", or similar words in the statement from
> the WMF Board.
>
> In addition to an apology, I was hoping to see the WMF Board focus on
> supervising the WMF organization, which I think is its principal job.
>
> I feel that this statement is condescending: "We believe that the
> communities should be able to 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia DC Statement on Terms of Use Enforcement

2019-07-01 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
In the first instance this is not about preventing harassment, it is the
reckoning off harassment past. A reckoning of actors of what they see as
acceptable or reasonable behavior. This has been on the radar for at least
as long as Wikimania London. They could have seen this coming in the recent
policies about safe practices. Now the chickens have come to roost. It is
not about particular instances, there masy have been the one that triggered
all this but that is in essence inconsequential.

Wikipedia is not a democracy where the system is to be gamed only by those
who have a stake in the process. With this crackdown we may lose quality
contributors in the short term. That is sad. However when this has as a
result an environment that is more welcoming it is well worth it.
Thanks,
 GerardM

On Mon, 1 Jul 2019 at 00:46, Lucas Teles  wrote:

> Thanks for the statement. I am pretty sure that everyone agrees with what
> is stated. However, the statement doesn't address the main and real issue.
> We have to identify the issue in order to take action against it. The said
> controversy doesn't have to do with preventing harassment - which is
> something we all agree that has to be done -, but it has to do with the way
> it was done. At the eyes of many community users, unnecessary lack of
> transparency was applied on this case with  no chance for defense and no
> explanation on why it was no left to be solved by ArbCom.
>
> If you are concerned - as I am -, I don't think we should discuss if
> harassment is good or bad. It is obviously bad. We should discuss the
> procedure and bring material for a real change.
>
> Teles
>
>
> *Lucas Teles*
>
> *+55 (71) 99707 6409Steward and Ombudsman for Wikimedia projects.
> Administrator *
> *at Portuguese Wikipedia and Wikimedia Commons.Strategy Liaison for
> Wikimedia Foundation.*
>
>
> Em dom, 30 de jun de 2019 às 16:32, Robert Fernandez <
> wikigamal...@gmail.com>
> escreveu:
>
> > https://wikimediadc.org/wiki/Press:Statement_on_Terms_of_Use_enforcement
> >
> > June 30, 2019
> >
> > Wikimedia District of Columbia is deeply concerned by recent events that
> > have occurred on the English Wikipedia, including community controversy
> > regarding a ban imposed by the Wikimedia Foundation.
> >
> > Protecting editors from harassment is crucial to the continued success of
> > the Wikimedia movement. Many of us have been targets of harassment as a
> > result of our contributions to the Wikimedia projects, and have witnessed
> > harassment of our colleagues, and we are grateful to the Wikimedia
> > Foundation's Trust & Safety team for their support in those incidents.
> >
> > We make no judgement on the case at the center of the current controversy
> > as the Foundation—as per long-standing practice to protect the privacy of
> > all concerned—did not identify the specifics of the behavior publicly. We
> > are not endorsing or opposing a specific case, policy, or process.
> However,
> > in light of these events, we publicly affirm our support for the
> following
> > principles:
> >
> >
> >- We support the Wikimedia Foundation's efforts in general to make the
> >English Wikipedia welcoming and accessible to people of all
> backgrounds
> > and
> >gender identities.
> >- We believe there are circumstances where the Wikimedia Foundation
> >should take action against individual editors who violate the Terms of
> > Use
> >when it is necessary to protect people of all backgrounds and gender
> >identities.
> >- We support collaboration between the Foundation and the English
> >Wikipedia community to inform the policies and processes surrounding
> > these
> >efforts.
> >- We oppose the use of discriminatory, racist, and homophobic language
> >in all Wikimedia discussions, and encourage the community to avoid it,
> >regardless of context or intent.
> >
> >
> > Board of Directors
> > Wikimedia District of Columbia
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fram en.wp office yearlock block

2019-06-30 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
Bans that cannot be appealed against are nothing new. A friend of mine has
a lifetime ban and there are mitigating circumstances (imho). Having said
that; for me a person who shuns Wikipedia as an editor for its negativity,
this has been a long time coming and is very welcome. When people leave
Wikipedia and we end up with a more civil environment it is well worth it.

Yes I read the statement and it does say ineffect  "we struggled and were
not able to cope".
Thanks,
  GerardM

On Sun, 30 Jun 2019 at 12:17, Ariel Glenn WMF  wrote:

> I would urge anyone who is following this thread to read and contemplate
> the Arbcom open letter to the WMF, posted early on June 30th. Link:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Community_response_to_the_Wikimedia_Foundation%27s_ban_of_Fram#Open_letter_from_the_Arbitration_Committee_to_the_WMF_Board
>
> This statement was sorely needed, as a means to create the space for the
> sort of frank and difficult discussions that must take place in order for
> the underlying issues to be resolved.
>
> Note that I am sending this email solely in my capacity as a sporadic
> volunteer on the projects, both by name and anonymously.
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 


Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

2019-06-21 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
I am afraid that this is a misrepresentation. Romaine is a "self confessed"
person with Asperger. Within our community we have an overrepresentation
with people with a mental health issue. This is to be expected. This is
typically not appreciated hardly ever understood. I have noticed before
that people with a mental health issue got into problems including the
imposition of a life time ban.

I do not know about trained and responsible but when there is no experience
with mental health, given the composition of our community when there is no
understanding for mental health issues, I do not think trained and
responsible is justified. The notion that we are dealing with a "mob" is
not helpful, it alienates the people you target with your speech. It
prevents us from getting to an understanding.\
Thanks,
  GerardM

On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 at 15:43, Robert Fernandez 
wrote:

> At some point we have to decide who this movement and community is
> for.  Is it for popular individuals to act out in any way they please
> and be awarded maximum freedom and lack of accountability?  Or is it
> so we can insure a friendly space for everyone, including those who
> are not popular, who are not loud voices on community forums, who do
> not want to be harassed or leered at or made uncomfortable?
>
> Everything is a tradeoff, and based on what I've seen I'll take the
> lack of "due process" from trained and responsible professionals over
> the popularity contests of the mob any day.
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 4:56 AM Paulo Santos Perneta
>  wrote:
> >
> > Taking everything and their dog as "harassment", without due process to
> > verify it, and issuing punishments one can't appeal based on that,
> creates
> > a feeling of fear and insecurity in the events; and provides a tool easy
> to
> > abuse by clever persons who understood how to game the system, as a
> vehicle
> > for severe harassment itself.
> >
> > This creates an unsafe and unfriendly space in the events,and should
> really
> > be looked at.
> >
> > Best,
> > Paulo
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > A sexta, 21 de jun de 2019, 06:57, Natacha Rault via Wikimedia-l <
> > wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> escreveu:
> >
> > > First of all I don’t know the context of this conversation. I know
> that I
> > > personnally find that the actions of  Trust& Safety  very valuable and
> > > wise. I totally support and trust their judgement.
> > >
> > > I am tired of seing their work criticized, and do not appreciate
> official
> > > chapter representants and employees publicly supporting alleged
> offenders,
> > > showing no aknowledgement of the fact that this is very toxic for
> alleged
> > > victims, and does not help to change attitude towards issues of
> > > harrassment.
> > >
> > > How can we feel safe in the movement if the decisions of T are
> > > questionned by official members of our movement?
> > >
> > > Nattes à chat
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Le 21 juin 2019 à 01:04, Chris Keating  a
> > > écrit :
> > >
> > > >>
> > > >> It is extremely disappointing, and *extremely typical* of the
> Wikimedia
> > > >> movement, to see an entire thread like this dedicated to supporting
> > > someone
> > > >> who Trust & Safety has found to have acted in such a way that they
> had
> > > to
> > > >> intervene. It is even more disappointing to see a person who was
> > > affected
> > > >> by his actions told "this is not your story" and "it may help you
> when
> > > you
> > > >> grow some sensitivity and respect this experience, the
> > > >> feelings of others."
> > > >>
> > > >> If you're wondering why women leave the Wikimedia movement, and why
> > > >> Wikimedia has such a bad harassment problem in general, just
> reflect on
> > > >> this thread.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Thank you, Molly, for expressing what I was just trying to summon the
> > > > energy to write.
> > > >
> > > > Chris
> > > > ___
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > 
> > >
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > 
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

2019-06-20 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
You do not get it. For me this is about saying goodbye. Saying goodbye to
someone I/we truly value. Saying goodbye to someone who we owe gratitude.
This was not allowed to be, we say goodbye and we are told that we are
wrong because a situation where the POV expressed is that we cannot say
goodbye, express our gratitude because they are / feel aggrieved.

I have no opinion on why this situation exists, what transpired. What I
object to is that there is no room given for our feeling of loss. That is
an injustice in its own right.
Thanks,
   GerardM

On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 at 00:26, Pierre-Selim  wrote:

> Her POV ?
>
> Well I can confirm what Caroline said.
>
> What more do you want ? To verify all other reports ?
>
> It's sad that things have escalated this far, but may be it's time to
> wonder why it escalated like that. There was multiple incidents reported.
> Things that should have stayed private were told on this mailing list by
> Romaine... well when do we stop this ?
>
> Please keep in mind when you cast your support here that people who have
> reported Romaine might be reading this.
>
> Le jeu. 20 juin 2019 à 23:12, Gerard Meijssen 
> a
> écrit :
>
> > Caroline,
> > For me this is not your story. Your insistence of making it so has quite
> > the opposite effect. I have known Romaine, the tireless efforts for us
> all
> > he has given us over the years, I grieve for our collective loss. I do
> not
> > know you and you are intruding on what is a feeling shared by many. It
> may
> > help you when you grow some sensitivity and respect this experience, the
> > feelings of others. Maybe it is too difficult for you, I do not know as I
> > do not know you at all.
> >
> > What I wonder is to what extend do you know Romaine, to what extend are
> you
> > stuck in your pov.
> > Thanks,
> >  GerardM
> >
> > On Thu, 20 Jun 2019 at 19:00, Caroline Becker 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > This is such a lost. Not only did you waisted an opportunity to learn
> and
> > > grow from your mistakes the first time, you reiterate here, showing no
> > > willingness to grow and learn.
> > >
> > > But why would you take the difficult path, when by just claiming your
> > right
> > > to "weirdness" (which I guess only apply to you and none to the people
> > you
> > > hurt), you're rewarding with public support ?
> > >
> > > Caroline
> > >
> > >
> > > Le jeu. 20 juin 2019 à 18:55, Dennis During  a
> > écrit :
> > >
> > > > I am ashamed that the movement has a climate that allows this
> > unfortunate
> > > > outcome
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 7:15 AM Romaine Wiki  >
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >  Dear community,
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > About a month ago I have decided that I will indefinitely no longer
> > > > attend
> > > > > any WMF funded events as result of bullying, attempts to silence
> me,
> > > > > intimidation and treats against me. This has resulted in that I
> feel
> > > > > extremely unsafe as the result of the behaviour of only a few
> > > > individuals.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Dennis C. During
> > > > ___
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > ___
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > U

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

2019-06-20 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Caroline,
For me this is not your story. Your insistence of making it so has quite
the opposite effect. I have known Romaine, the tireless efforts for us all
he has given us over the years, I grieve for our collective loss. I do not
know you and you are intruding on what is a feeling shared by many. It may
help you when you grow some sensitivity and respect this experience, the
feelings of others. Maybe it is too difficult for you, I do not know as I
do not know you at all.

What I wonder is to what extend do you know Romaine, to what extend are you
stuck in your pov.
Thanks,
 GerardM

On Thu, 20 Jun 2019 at 19:00, Caroline Becker 
wrote:

> This is such a lost. Not only did you waisted an opportunity to learn and
> grow from your mistakes the first time, you reiterate here, showing no
> willingness to grow and learn.
>
> But why would you take the difficult path, when by just claiming your right
> to "weirdness" (which I guess only apply to you and none to the people you
> hurt), you're rewarding with public support ?
>
> Caroline
>
>
> Le jeu. 20 juin 2019 à 18:55, Dennis During  a écrit :
>
> > I am ashamed that the movement has a climate that allows this unfortunate
> > outcome
> >
> > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 7:15 AM Romaine Wiki 
> > wrote:
> >
> > >  Dear community,
> > >
> > >
> > > About a month ago I have decided that I will indefinitely no longer
> > attend
> > > any WMF funded events as result of bullying, attempts to silence me,
> > > intimidation and treats against me. This has resulted in that I feel
> > > extremely unsafe as the result of the behaviour of only a few
> > individuals.
> > >
> > >
> > --
> > Dennis C. During
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 


Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

2019-06-20 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi Romaine,
I am sad. It has been a pleasure to work with you. Your energy has been
inspiring.

I hope that we will find each other whenever, wherever.
Thank you Romaine :)
Gerard

On Thu, 20 Jun 2019 at 13:15, Romaine Wiki  wrote:

>  Dear community,
>
> First I need to mention that the message I sent a few days ago had too
> limited information regarding the context of the message. The e-mail was
> written by me personally alone, written from my perspective. The email
> contained an overview what has happened, written based on e-mails and
> eyewitnesses. So if anyone would say it is not true, please add {{Citation
> needed}} to that person's saying.
>
>
>
>
> About a month ago I have decided that I will indefinitely no longer attend
> any WMF funded events as result of bullying, attempts to silence me,
> intimidation and treats against me. This has resulted in that I feel
> extremely unsafe as the result of the behaviour of only a few individuals.
>
> This has lead that since the start of this occurring about 18 months ago I
> have been over a dozen of times very ill, while I was in the 10 years
> before only twice that ill.
>
> I see no indication that the issues addressed are taken seriously, so I see
> no safe space for me to be present. In my childhood I was bullied for being
> different, I am not interested in a second episode now.
>
>
>
>
> From my parents I have learned to lend others always a helping hand where I
> can. As such I was happy to be able to help the organisers of various
> conferences and I always tried to make it a comfortable place for everyone.
>
> To my regret I have been informed that some people have indicated that I
> have given them an unpleasant feeling. You must know that I never ever had
> such intention (also still largely unsure what of me has given you this
> emotion) and I am feeling bad that I gave you such feeling. My apologies!
>
>
> Some people have indicated with last year's conference that they had an
> impression of me while I never ever had intended as such. In the past
> period I have been thinking about it what would make some people think that
> I gave that impression. This includes that some people think that I was
> flirting or something with other people, while I actually had no interest
> in the other.
>
> I suspect it might have something to do that I almost never really
> introduced myself as I always thought that widely diverse people in our
> movement would respect me in my diversity.
>
>
> Perhaps it is good to create some clarity. Traditionally looking, I
> understand people expect me as "man" to fall on women, but I do not fall on
> the women present at the conferences, as well as that I have a different
> gender identification. In other words: LGBT+   Also I am autistic, having
> aspergers, having sensory overloads, being claustrophobic, having a hearing
> problem, avoiding touching, having an eidetic memory (photographic memory),
> etc, being divergent in comparison to many others, I am feeling a bit
> socially clumsy.
>
> The first 8 years in the wiki world I was not feeling safe to meet anyone.
> In 2011 I visited the first wiki event when Wikipedia celebrated its 10th
> birthday. I felt more and more safe and joined more events. You might have
> seen me with my large enthusiasm as I feel by providing knowledge to the
> world, we make the world a better place for anyone. Now 8 years later I am
> leaving as I am not feeling safe again.
>
> But please, do not get me wrong. I live in a country that would probably
> win the world championships in complaining. I believe everyone has the
> right to complain, as that I see as part of the basic rights of freedom of
> expression and thought. It matters however what happens next with
> complaints. Every complaint should be judged by independent individuals,
> with impartiality, without also any *appearance* of partiality, with taking
> into account *all* information, with care and respect to all individuals
> involved. (etc) Also anyone has the right to defend themselves against
> allegations *before* conclusions are drawn and before decisions are made.
> Among other things, three times a conclusion was drawn without talking with
> me, with as excuse "we know how he thinks", sorry, but that is a heavy
> insult to me.
>
> Behind the scenes I have been trying to address the issues with dialogues,
> as well as various other people, who have indicated their concerns, offered
> help, offered (actual) solutions, tried to intermediate, etc etc, zero
> results, zero self reflection.
>
> There is a limit of what a human being can bear, my limit is here.
>
>
>
> In the world, people have been discriminated for their religion, political
> beliefs, the colour of their skin, because of their gender, because of a
> different gender identity, how they look like, ..., or just because they
> are considered to be "weird" when people do not understand the other. I
> would prefer that we do not copy that and 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Community Health, Roles & Responsibilities

2019-06-16 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
Ask yourself why you do not get it as you describe them as "noisy". There
is a photo of a presentation at the London Wikimania going round that
describes it well. It is a long time coming and the chickens have come home
to roost.

Indeed they are not learning the appropriate lessons but they is you.
Thanks,
   GerardM

On Mon, 17 Jun 2019 at 00:02, Nathan  wrote:

> On Sun, Jun 16, 2019 at 5:03 PM Ad Huikeshoven  wrote:
>
> > 
> >
> > The Wikimedia Foundation took a bold step in banning Fram for a year.
> They
> > have the authority to do so. They are not obliged to give reasons.
> >
> >
> Here's a fundamental source of disagreement. It gets at something I'm not
> sure the strategy process is properly addressing. Does the WMF lead and
> direct the Wikimedia movement? Or is its role to provide support and
> services to the movement's contributors, who are (collectively) its
> leaders? Should it impose change on projects based on its own determination
> of need, or respond to needs identified by project communities?
>
> My impression is that the WMF views the noisy contributors who participate
> in meta discussions (and, incidentally, vote for Board elections) as a
> necessary evil -- and its own role as being the guarantor of the best
> interests of the readers, whom the movement is intended to benefit. Their
> sense of the gravity of any controversy among insiders is always tempered
> by the conviction that readers are unaffected, and will ultimately benefit.
> Since readers are by definition a group who cannot react to internal
> politics, they have no voice to criticize any decisions taken in their
> name.
>
> I think this becomes the true basis of the anger and resistance on the
> English Wikipedia: *the sense that the WMF has declared that it is
> leading now, instead of supporting*. That's also the message in comments
> that assert the WMF has the authority to do what it likes, and no
> obligation to explain or justify its decisions. Each time the WMF has taken
> similar decisions the reaction has been similar, but as I mentioned in a
> previous post... They are not learning the appropriate lessons.
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 


Re: [Wikimedia-l] Foundation management of volunteers

2019-06-16 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
There is a picture of Jimmy Wales giving a talk at a Wikimania explicitly
talking about the situation that is here being considered. A person can be
a wonderful editor and a toxic personality. What is happening is not new,
it is coming to a head. When you, the English Wikipedia "community" has not
seen this coming, where have you been.

Personally I have lost faith in the English "community" for its insistence
on independence and thinking that it is the same as their way of doing
things. It sucks, it is largely a power play where the incumbents fight of
anything new, different because they consider themselves to be the
"community". Yes they may be but it is not the best for us. Get a grip,
consider this and do not think for a moment that it is not on you to allow
for the difference.
Thanks,
   GerardM

On Sun, 16 Jun 2019 at 17:09, Todd Allen  wrote:

> I think it's a good question.
>
> The first thing, I think, is to regain the community's trust, which has
> been very badly damaged at this point. I only see one way for them to do
> that, and that is to back off, sooner rather than later. Ensure the
> community that this will not happen again, at least not until a solution
> workable to all sides can be arrived at. (And while I shouldn't have to say
> it--honor that.) If the WMF carries on the way that it is now, that loss of
> trust may become irreparable. In 2006-2007, when the WMF was starting to
> expand its role, some community members expressed a fear of this very type
> of situation, that the WMF would consider itself "in charge" of the
> project. They were, of course, ensured that, no, WMF's just here to handle
> the clerical stuff and keep the servers ticking along, that'd never happen.
> Some of us were around long enough to remember when those things were said,
> and that makes it feel, not just like a power grab, but like a betrayal.
> Don't say one thing and do something else.
>
> From there, if you think there's a problem with the English Wikipedia,
> discuss it with the community there. Not in carefully parsed and polished
> corporatese, but in frank, direct language. If you think something's wrong,
> say so. Be aware that "I want to see your source for that" is almost
> second-nature on the project, as well it should be. Come prepared. If you
> just kind of have a hazy guess based on a couple anecdotes, that's not
> going to fly. (Note that this means a widely publicized discussion on ENWP.
> NOT meta.)
>
> From there, don't approach with the attitude of "Now, here is the solution
> that we will be imposing." Instead, have an attitude of "What can we do to
> fix this and make things work better?". Whatever "it" may be. If it's like
> the points in the earlier email, that there are copyright violations, well,
> the community doesn't want those either. If it's poor sourcing, we don't
> want that. Errors? Don't want 'em. So, if those problems exist, of course
> we'll want to fix them too. You will not get an argument over those
> principles.
>
> Once there actually is a consensus on a fix, then it can be proceeded with.
> There, the software fiascos are instructive. The first time around on them,
> WMF tried to use a "cram it down your throat" approach, with the
> predictable results since the software was not yet fit for purpose. After
> they withdrew it and fixed it, they came back and asked "Does this look
> alright to you now?". The result was overwhelming support to go forward
> with the deployments. Even those few people who still vehemently didn't
> want them didn't try to start a fight against it, or disable it by editing
> the MediaWiki namespace, because the community had come to a consensus on
> the matter and they weren't going to defy that.
>
> Basically, you cannot start shoving someone and then be amazed and
> surprised when they fight back. Talk instead. It is utterly stupid and
> counterproductive for the community and WMF to be in a fight. That should
> absolutely never happen, and this situation was entirely preventable. But
> the WMF must very clearly understand that the English Wikipedia community,
> at least (and I suspect many others as well) will not willingly give up
> their editorial independence to the Foundation. That portion, I'm afraid,
> is never going to be negotiable. But without doing that, I think the
> community and the WMF can collaborate to solve problems, if and only if
> that relationship can be one based upon trust. But the community didn't
> swing first on this one, and the Foundation has absolutely got to stop
> picking these fights if it wants any credibility at all. You do not get
> someone to trust you by trying to force them to do something they don't
> wa

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Foundation management of volunteers

2019-06-16 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
It is not so much Wikipedia that is failing, it is the Wikipedia "business
as usual" attitude that is failing. The challenge we face is now that we
know and expect that things are to change, how do we introduce change and
steer it in a way where people feel less threatened by the usual suspects.

What I have noticed is that there has been no room for real arguments,
arguments where points of view are floated and considered for their merits.
So what does it take for people to consider the merits of proposals without
immediately reverting to "but that is not how I/we do things"?

Important when you want to consider points of view is the way in which we
converse. There is a huge difference between calling a point of view
bullshit and calling the person a bullshit artist. Even so, calling a POV
bullshit is acceptable when arguments are provided WHY you consider
something bullshit.

Technically many things have progressed to a point where Wikipedia could
take them seriously. This does not happen even when it is all too obvious
how our public would benefit. As our intention is to share in the sum of
all knowledge, we do not need to have it all available, we can point to
partners eg Open Library where publications are available written by the
subject of an article. We do have the data in Wikidata and we could
experiment by including Open Library in the {{authority control}}. Many
more practical opportunities exist where Wikipedia would objectively
benefit from a different modus operandi.

Given that as always, there are those who insist that Wikipedia has failed
let us prove them wrong. Let's consider what is needed to make Wikipedia
innovative again, what it takes for our community to be considered as not
toxic. We can and, as a community we will benefit but as important
Wikipedia, the project we all care for will turn a page.
Thanks,
GerardM

On Sun, 16 Jun 2019 at 14:18, Mister Thrapostibongles <
thrapostibong...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear all,
> The discussion triggered by recent WMF T actions has tended to focus on
> the merits or otherwise of that specific action (even though as I have
> pointed out elsewhere this is very much a case of those who know don;t talk
> and those who talk don't know).  So I though it might be helpful to try and
> abstract some more general points for discussion.
>
> The long-term future of the Community, and the relationship between the
> Foundation and its volunteers is under discussion in an elaborately
> structured consultation announced already here in September 2017.  It would
> not be particularly helpful to try to run a parallel discussion here.  But
> in the short to medium term, it seems that it will be necessary for the
> Foundation to take a different stance with respect to the management of the
> various projects, and the English Wikipedia in particular.
>
> It is often said that "The problem with Wikipedia is that it only works in
> practice. In theory, it can never work."  Well, that's half true.  What the
> experiment has proved is that the theory was indeed correct -- Wikipedia,
> as currently constituted, does not work.  There are two inter-related
> aspects to its failure: content and conduct, inextricably related in a
> project founded on crowd-sourcing.
>
> Let's look at the content first.  Even on Wikipedia's own terms, it has
> failed.  It is a principle that Wikipedia is founded on reliable sources,
> and by its own admission, Wikipedia itself is not such a source.  That
> bears repetition -- a project aiming to be an encyclopaedia, that compares
> itself with Britannica, explicitly is not reliable.  Foundation research
> has shown that about one fifth of Wikipedia articles are supported  by
> references that are inadequate to support the text or simply are not
> there.  That's about a million articles each on of the larger Wikpedias.
> Some thousands of those are biographies of living people and in view of the
> risk of defamation, no such articles should exist on Wikipedia at all.
> There are several thousand articles that are possible copyright violations:
> again such articles should not be there.  And when I say "should not", I
> mean according to the rules adopted by the Wikipedia volunteer community
> itself.
>
> This links to the conduct aspects.  The self-organising policies of the
> "encyclopaedia that anyone can edit" have flattened out the formal
> hierarchy to the extent that it has been replaced, necessarily, by an
> informal but strong hierarchy based on a reputation econiomy.  This creates
> an unpleasant and hence ineffective working environment, and makes it all
> but impossible to organise a volunteer workforce into coping with the major
> violations of content policy alreay mentioned.  Indeed, the conduct policy
> makes it all but impossible to effectively handle cases of major abuse,
> witting ot uwitting.  For example, one reason for the failure to manage
> copyright violations is that some thousand of articles were 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fram en.wp office yearlock block

2019-06-15 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
For me it is not about Fram, it is about who you are as a community how you
rate as friendly cooperative inviting. At that Wikipedia sucks and as it
says in the book Max Havelaar, "Barbertje moet hangen". This case is a
clear sign that not everything can be said and done and that there is no
entitlement in this. That point is now made. Nobody is above the law,
particularly admin and other people in "high ofice".

There is a reason why I hardly edit Wikipedia and it is because I feel not
at home with all the aggression used in stead of arguments.
Thanks,
   GerardM

On Sun, 16 Jun 2019 at 00:47, George Herbert 
wrote:

> I think the legalities are distracting, but to be more on point and blunt:
>
> Wikipedia is a volunteer organization.
>
> Wikimedia Foundation is the professional support arm of in some ways the
> world's largest collection of similar goal volunteer organizations.
>
> Volunteer organizations happen because volunteers volunteer their time and
> interest.  Things get done either because they think it's important, or
> they're willing to contribute some fraction of their total effort to things
> the community as a whole agrees need doing.
>
> Whether there's any legality involved or not, doing something that
> immediately alienates a large portion of the most dedicated most
> experienced volunteer base of the English language Wikipedia is ... at best
> misguided, at worst horrifically counterproductive for the goals and long
> term survival of the Wikimedia Foundation.
>
> I'm not going far out on a limb speculating that S did this because they
> felt they could, felt they should, and felt it was not going to cause
> widespread outrage and pushback.
>
> Pushback is clear and shiningly evident now.  The reasoning why they should
> has been challenged, based on the public statements, and is at the very
> least challenged and in doubt.
>
>
> The Foundation damaging volunteer interest in the projects this profoundly
> is not a minor glitch.
>
>
> -george
>
> On Sat, Jun 15, 2019 at 3:35 PM Thomas Townsend 
> wrote:
>
> > On Sat, 15 Jun 2019 at 18:39, Dan Rosenthal 
> wrote:
> > >
> > > There is no "very basic principle of Human Rights and dignity" to be
> free
> > > from the presumption of guilt by others.  You may be confusing Article
> 11
> > > of the UHDR, but this applies explicitly only to "penal offenses."
> > Unless
> > > Fram is getting locked up in prison for his actions, let's drop the
> > absurd
> > > hyperbole that this is somehow a human rights violation.
> >
> >
> > The Foundation has explicitly stated at
> > https://wikimediafoundation.org/advocacy/ that
> > "everyone has the right to seek and share knowledge." and at
> >
> >
> https://wikimediafoundation.org/2019/05/23/wikimedia-foundation-petitions-the-european-court-of-human-rights-to-lift-the-block-of-wikipedia-in-turkey/
> > that the ability to contribute to Wikipedia is a matter for the
> > European Court of Human Rights.
> >
> > So it seems that Dan is incorrect -- this *is* a human rights matter.
> > All the more reason, then, to have it supervised by the competent
> > professionals of the Foundation.
> >
> > The Turnip
> >
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
>
>
>
> --
> -george william herbert
> george.herb...@gmail.com
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 


Re: [Wikimedia-l] ¿Qué te hace feliz esta semana? / What's making you happy this week?

2019-06-12 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
What makes me happy is that a public discussion is happening about the
performance and the future performance of the query engine of the Wikidata
query engine. Not only are things in the open but it has triggered
responses from knowledgeable people making it plain that there is room for
future growth.

Oh and Magnus is sprinkling his magic making his software perform better,
taking less of a toll to the update process of the query engine..
Thanks,
 GerardM


On Wed, 12 Jun 2019 at 08:01, Natacha Rault via Wikimedia-l <
wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> wrote:

> What’s making me happy is also sad (how can one separate hapiness from
> sadness as you obviously need one to measure the other). My mom is in
> hospital, her breath cancer spreaded again with metastasis. Yep, looks bad.
>
> But I discovered a thread which was shared on twitter by francophone
> wikipedians by the sixth form poet and we laughed so much... I had to stop
> reading the puns as she held her sides telling me it was hurting her.
>
> It was great she could forget the pain for a moment. #metoo
>
> Here is one of his puns :
> https://twitter.com/sixthformpoet/status/617649146841989120?s=21
>
> People found guilty of not using punctuation deserve the longest sentence
> possible.
>
> We also appreciated the story of the cemetary. Weird but sweet.
> https://twitter.com/sixthformpoet/status/1137658720698228736?s=21
>
>
> And another thing, in times of great pressure, I take time to make myself
> a vegan jogurt, very very slowly. This is how it looks like :
> Cos wikimedian geeks need to get involved in some kind of earthly
> activities for a change and to balance the sometimes extreme emotions we
> experience in our heated debates. I will also at one point when it stops
> raining take a book and wander of the Rhone with my kayak to find moments
> of peace :
>
>
>
> If you come to Geneva and you want a ride, shout (you will probably have
> to bring earplugs too if you want a peaceful ride as I am an awful
> chatterbox).
>
> That’s all geeks!
>
> Nattes à chat
>
> > Le 11 juin 2019 à 22:09, Pine W  a écrit :
> >
> > Hello colleagues,
> >
> > I hope that you feel welcome to add your own comments to this email
> thread.
> > Your participation would be appreciated, including starting these threads
> > in future weeks.
> >
> > I like this
> > <
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Aratinga_solstitialis_-_Loro_Parque_01.jpg
> >
> > Commons Picture of the Day. The photo is of a sun parakeet. The photo was
> > taken on the Canary Islands.
> >
> > The May issue <
> https://outreach.wikimedia.org/wiki/GLAM/Newsletter/May_2019>
> > of *This Month in GLAM* was published.
> >
> > What's making you happy this week? You are welcome to comment in any
> > language.
> >
> > Pine
> > ( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine )
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 


Re: [Wikimedia-l] [African Wikimedians] Happy Africa Day: keyboards for all the languages of Africa

2019-05-25 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hey Isaac,
Would you be willing to either write an article about using the Yoruba
keyboard. Particularly what it takes to learn to use it and if/how you use
other software? It would deserve a place on the Wikimedia blog because the
keyboard effort deserves much more attention :)
Thanks,
  GerardM

On Sat, 25 May 2019 at 11:28, Isaac Olatunde 
wrote:

> Hello Amir,
>
> Thank you for this great work. I have been enjoying the Yoruba keyboard you
> designed for me over over three years ago. I am proud to say that in have
> translated over 250 articles from English Wikipedia to Yoruba Wikipedia
> using the keyboards and I have trained others on now to use it and they
> have also translated over 200 articles to Yoruba Wikipedia. Without, this
> keyboard it's usually uninteresting for native speakers to contribute to
> Yoruba Wikipedia but that problem has now been mitigated by your work.
>
> Again, thank you so much on behalf of the Yoruba Wikipedia community.
>
> Regards,
>
> Isaac
>
> (Apology for mistakenly posting with the indaba email connected to my
> device)
>
> On Sat, May 25, 2019, 8:29 AM WikiIndaba 2019 Nigeria <
> wikiindaba2019scholars...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > Hello Amir,
> >
> > Thank you for this great work. I have been enjoying the Yoruba keyboard
> > you designed for me over over three years ago. I am proud to say that in
> > have translated over 250 articles from English Wikipedia to Yoruba
> > Wikipedia using the keyboards and I have trained others on now to use it
> > and they have also translated over 200 articles to Yoruba Wikipedia.
> > Without, this keyboard it's usually uninteresting for native speakers to
> > contribute to Yoruba Wikipedia but that problem has now been mitigated by
> > your work.
> >
> > Again, thank you so much on behalf of the Yoruba Wikipedia community.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Isaac
> >
> > On Sat, May 25, 2019, 8:20 AM Amir E. Aharoni <
> > amir.ahar...@mail.huji.ac.il wrote:
> >
> >> Hello, and happy Africa day!
> >>
> >> [ crossposted to African Wikimedians list, general Wikimedia list, and
> >> mediawiki-i18n ]
> >>
> >> To celebrate this, I am announcing the completion of a little pet
> project
> >> that I started a year ago: it is now easy to type in all the languages
> of
> >> Africa in which there is a Wikipedia or an active Incubator.
> >>
> >> This is available in all Wikimedia projects and in translatewiki.net.
> >> This release is intended for desktop and laptop computers. For mobile
> >> phones and tablets, I strongly recommend trying apps such as Gboard,
> >> SwiftKey, or African Keyboard.
> >>
> >> For full details and project description see this blog post:
> >>
> >>
> https://aharoni.wordpress.com/2019/05/25/happy-africa-day-keyboards-for-all-african-wikipedia-languages/
> >>
> >> Or jump straight into the (easy!!!) technical documentation here:
> >>
> >>
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Extension:UniversalLanguageSelector/Input_methods/Africa
> >>
> >> These keyboards were tested by myself, and some of them were also tested
> >> by a few other people who speak these languages, and as far as I know
> they
> >> are easy to enable and disable and the work correctly. However, it's
> >> possible that some things are missing: I could have missed some
> letters, I
> >> could have made mistakes in documentation, I could have missed some
> >> languages. Please contact me if you find any problems.
> >>
> >> Thanks!
> >>
> >> --
> >> Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
> >> http://aharoni.wordpress.com
> >> ‪“We're living in pieces,
> >> I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬
> >> ___
> >> African-Wikimedians mailing list
> >> african-wikimedi...@lists.wikimedia.org
> >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/african-wikimedians
> >>
> > ___
> > African-Wikimedians mailing list
> > african-wikimedi...@lists.wikimedia.org
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/african-wikimedians
> >
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 


Re: [Wikimedia-l] Be the change you want to see (was: WMF commitment for a Wikimedia projects archive)

2019-05-15 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
Asaf thank you very much. This response of yours helps build bridges.
Thanks,
  GerardM

On Wed, 15 May 2019 at 03:17, Asaf Bartov  wrote:

> Speaking as a (very) longtime member of this mailing list, and one who is
> carefully observing it for a few years now as a volunteer list
> co-administrator:
>
> On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 3:56 AM Joseph Seddon 
> wrote:
>
> > I, like many others, wish to see this list become a crucible of good
> > suggestions, healthy and critical debate about ideas and as a sound
> > mechanism for oversight and account . A huge amount of staff time and
> > movement resources is taken up by the consumption of its content. And yet
> > it remains the greatest shame that much of the best most worthwhile
> > constructive discussions have moved to platforms like Facebook because
> this
> > list is viewed as hosting such an unhealthy atmosphere when emails are
> > written with such overt passive aggression.
> >
> > I call it out because if we want people to participate on this list, the
> > unhealthy way in which this list gets treated by some of its most active
> > participants needs to be dealt with. Otherwise valid points will not get
> > acknowledged or answered.
> >
>
> I am not sure the causality here runs in the direction you describe.  It's
> true that this list had some aggressive, even vulgar participants in the
> past, and that some senior staff members, as well as board members, have
> left the list in protest.  Personally, I think that was a mistake on their
> part: to improve the list atmosphere, you model good behavior yourself, and
> you call upon the rest of the list -- the "silent majority" -- to call out
> bad behavior and enforce some participation standards (as, indeed, I and my
> co-moderators have been doing since we took over).
>
> By senior people's departing this list, and no longer requiring staff to be
> on this list, a strong signal was sent that this is not a venue crucial to
> listen to, and that, coupled with the decreasing frequency of WMF responses
> to legitimate volunteer inquiries and suggestions, had a *powerful*
> chilling effect on the willingness of most volunteers to engage here.
> Especially when, as you say, they were able to get better engagement on
> Facebook and other channels, despite the serious shortcomings of
> accountability on those channels (immutable archiving, searchability,
> access to anonymous volunteers, etc.)
>
> Yes, this list has also seen some pseudonymous critics whose questions may
> have been inconvenient or troublesome to address.  Yet I think the
> accountable thing to do would have been to respond, however briefly, to
> prevent the sealioning and sanctimonious posts that filled the list -- and,
> I am sure, greatly annoyed and demotivated many subscribers.  Even a
> response stating WMF chooses not to respond to a certain question, or not
> to dig up certain data, would have been better than the stony silence that
> has become the all-too-common stance for WMF on this list.
>
> As you know, I also work for WMF (though I am writing this in my volunteer
> capacity, and out of my care for the well-being of this list).  While I
> have never shied away from responding on this list, I have on occasion been
> scolded (internally) for attempting to answer volunteer queries to the best
> of my knowledge, for "outstepping my remit" or interfering in someone
> else's remit.  I have taken this to heart, and accordingly no longer try to
> respond to queries such as Fae's (which in this case I find a perfectly
> reasonable question, meriting an answer).  Several past attempts by me to
> ping appropriate senior staff on questions on this list (or on talk pages)
> have also met with rebuke, so I have ceased those as well.
>
> For these reasons I do not accept this wholesale blaming of this list's
> subscribers on the difficulty having meaningful conversations here:
>
> But if we want to see staff members more actively
> > participating here then those long standing individuals need to really
> > thing about the tone in which they engage here, particularly those who do
> > so most often. If that does not change, this list will continue to
> languish
> > and those few staff members who continue to engage here will slowly
> > disappear. This now increasingly perennial topic keeps coming up and my
> > fear is that it will on go away through the increasing abandonment this
> > list faces.
> >
>
> It is WMF that is not behaving collaboratively here.  And it is within
> WMF's power to change it.  C-levels, the ED, and other managers at WMF
> could all decide to participate more actively in this list; to respond to
> questions or delegate the answering to their subordinates, who are awaiting
> their cue; and indeed, they could themselves make more use of this list as
> a sounding board, a consultation room, and a reserve of experience and
> diverse context.  They can be the change they (and you, and me) would like
> to see.
>
> Perhaps 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Announcing 1Lib1Ref (1Bib1Ref) in May 2019!

2019-04-29 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
Well if this was not a Wiki, I could agree with you. However in a Wiki we
need to be complete, we need to understand an issue and work towards a
solution. Your assertion that the community "is not fixing that problem and
indeed is unable to fix that problem" is therefore an assertion that is
best used elsewhere. To a large extend, the notion some have: "everything
needs to be sourced" reads better as "everything should be sourced", much
more reasonable. Such a difference allows for requiring sources when an
issue is controversial.

Having said that a lot of work is being done and we have had our first
articles changed because the facts supported by citations are invalid; the
sources were retracted. Now that is exactly where we need our community to
understand the implications. Science is not immutable, it is not an opinion
and when thing are untrue, our articles need to reflect this. The
mechanisms that make this possible require technology, we need people like
librarians that understand this as part of our community, because at this
time many people do not appreciate science and its processes.

And by the way, I do understand the scale of this issue. It is why I spend
a large amount of time adding scientists, scholarly papers to Wikidata.
Particularly on those subjects that I think are important where there is a
lot of misinformation, where points of view, including political points of
view are not supported by science, better where science indicates that
those points of view are wrong. In addition I add those scientists that are
"in the news"
Thanks,
 GerardM

On Mon, 29 Apr 2019 at 08:38, Jennifer Pryor-Summers <
jennifer.pryorsumm...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Gerard
>
> Thank you for explaining to me what it is that I fail to understand.  In
> the same spirit, let me adopt for once your own, somewhat assertive
> terminology, to explain to you what you do not understand, namely the scale
> of the problem: the major Wikipedia projects have millions of unreferenced
> or inadequately referenced articles, including thousands which are
> biographies of living people.  What you do not understand is that the
> community on which you place such emphasis has created that problem, is not
> fixing that problem and indeed is unable to fix that problem.  You also do
> not understand the simple arithmetic that the collaboration with librarians
> equally does not and cannot fix that problem.
>
> In future, please do not say "you do not understand X" when what you mean
> is "I disagree with you about X".
>
> JPS
>
> On Sun, Apr 28, 2019 at 8:54 PM Gerard Meijssen  >
> wrote:
>
> > Hoi,
> > The thing you fail to understand is how much of what we do is done by a
> > community. What we need is collaboration with the world of libraries. It
> is
> > embodied by librarians and yes, it is important that they are on our
> side.
> > To be on our side, they need to know Wikipedia, what we are doing in
> > Wikidata with scholarly papers. They need to know, be involved in order
> to
> > help their clients understand the Internet and Wikipedia. Their clients
> are
> > or may become Wikimedians.
> >
> > So yes, we are dabbling with AI to find where citations are most needed.
> We
> > need to work on including science in Wikidata so that its references may
> be
> > used in a scalable way. A way that allows us to check Wikipedia for the
> > retractions we are finally including in Wikidata. The technology may
> become
> > available to us but we need people who understand it, live it. Librarians
> > are great at that.
> > Thanks,
> >GerardM
> >
> > On Sun, 28 Apr 2019 at 19:37, Jennifer Pryor-Summers <
> > jennifer.pryorsumm...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Jake
> > >
> > > Thanks for that, but I think we need to preserve a sense of proportion
> > > here.  According to a recent WMF Research finding, see
> > >
> > >
> >
> https://wikimediafoundation.org/2019/04/03/can-machine-learning-uncover-wikipedias-missing-citation-needed-tags/
> > > ,
> > > <
> >
> https://wikimediafoundation.org/2019/04/03/can-machine-learning-uncover-wikipedias-missing-citation-needed-tags/
> ,
> > >
> > > "one
> > > out of four articles in English Wikipedia does not have any references
> at
> > > all".  That' something like 1.5 million articles, and maybe 3 million
> > > across all languages.  Your report suggests that around 6000 articles
> > were
> > > updated: that's at best 0.2% of the backlog.  At this rate it will take
> > > about 250 years to clear it.  Perhaps a new approach is neede

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Announcing 1Lib1Ref (1Bib1Ref) in May 2019!

2019-04-28 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
The thing you fail to understand is how much of what we do is done by a
community. What we need is collaboration with the world of libraries. It is
embodied by librarians and yes, it is important that they are on our side.
To be on our side, they need to know Wikipedia, what we are doing in
Wikidata with scholarly papers. They need to know, be involved in order to
help their clients understand the Internet and Wikipedia. Their clients are
or may become Wikimedians.

So yes, we are dabbling with AI to find where citations are most needed. We
need to work on including science in Wikidata so that its references may be
used in a scalable way. A way that allows us to check Wikipedia for the
retractions we are finally including in Wikidata. The technology may become
available to us but we need people who understand it, live it. Librarians
are great at that.
Thanks,
   GerardM

On Sun, 28 Apr 2019 at 19:37, Jennifer Pryor-Summers <
jennifer.pryorsumm...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Jake
>
> Thanks for that, but I think we need to preserve a sense of proportion
> here.  According to a recent WMF Research finding, see
>
> https://wikimediafoundation.org/2019/04/03/can-machine-learning-uncover-wikipedias-missing-citation-needed-tags/
> ,
> 
> "one
> out of four articles in English Wikipedia does not have any references at
> all".  That' something like 1.5 million articles, and maybe 3 million
> across all languages.  Your report suggests that around 6000 articles were
> updated: that's at best 0.2% of the backlog.  At this rate it will take
> about 250 years to clear it.  Perhaps a new approach is needed -- WMF
> researchers are looking into AI.
>
> JPS
>
> On Thu, Apr 25, 2019 at 6:27 PM Jake Orlowitz  wrote:
>
> > Librarians and library lovers,
> >
> > Next month from May 15th to June 5th we will be joining together around
> the
> > world to make Wikipedia more reliable.  You can participate in #1Lib1Ref
> by
> > simply adding a citation to Wikipedia's content.
> >
> > That's all we ask and imagine: a world in which every librarian (or
> > archivist, reference professional, and scholar) adds 1 more reference to
> > Wikipedia.
> >
> > This is the fourth year of the #1Lib1Ref campaign and our second time
> > running it in May, when it's more convenient for the southern hemisphere.
> > You can learn about this year's January campaign too in our recently
> > released learnings report.
> >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/The_Wikipedia_Library/1Lib1Ref/Lessons/2019
> >
> > Full resources and guides for participating in May are available on the
> > http://1lib1ref.org campaign website.
> >
> > The campaign will be fully tracked with daily metrics and leaderboard
> > updates.  You can make sure your contribution is counted by using the
> > Program and Events Dashboard for your event, institution, or region.
> >
> > Login to start a new event or join up with an existing group for the May
> > Campaign here:
> >
> >
> https://outreachdashboard.wmflabs.org/campaigns/1lib1ref_may_2019/programs
> >
> > Please tell your library and library-loving friends about #1Lib1Ref in
> > May.  We need everyone's help to make Wikipedia more reliable!
> >
> > Sincerely,
> >
> > Jake Orlowitz
> >
> > Head of the Wikipedia Library
> >
> > Wikimedia Foundation
> >
> > wikipedialibr...@wikimedia.org
> >
> > @Wikilibrary
> >
> > P.S. Don’t worry if you can’t make it for the May campaign, as now
> 1Lib1Ref
> > receives annual support and you can always reach out for assistance any
> > time of the year.
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 


Re: [Wikimedia-l] Supporting Wikinews [was: Reviewing our brand system for our 2030 goals]

2019-04-27 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
Now that the Wikidatafication of Commons allows for "depicts", there is
plenty to do. It will make it easier to find what is on Commons, it will
hugely increase the relevance of Commons beyond the Wikimedia Foundation
and within, it allows people to find illustrations in their own language


On Sat, 27 Apr 2019 at 15:09, Dennis During  wrote:

> It would be nice if more Commons images HAD proper location and context
> info. As it is experts are often needed to identify meaningful content and
> categories. Those tasks are not the equivalent of minor copyediting, not
> that proofreading is a minor matter.
>
> IOW, Commons *needs* more collaborative effort.
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 


Re: [Wikimedia-l] Supporting Wikinews [was: Reviewing our brand system for our 2030 goals]

2019-04-19 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
"your time and effort" is for those other people to waste. It is for them
to decide what value they derive from spending it in this way. "our
donations", donations is what donors offer. Once they have donated, it
becomes the money of the Wikimedia Foundation. It is not our donations, it
is not even our money.

Then consider the cost, to the Wikimedia Foundation. It is largely the cost
of serving the content, the management of the servers. In the big picture
it is not much, it is also very much a question on the inclusivity of the
Wikimedia Foundation that enables the continued existence of these
projects. With a Wikipedia community as a movement we will be excluding
others as we expel volunteers who are considered redundant because they do
not fit our image.
Thanks,
  GerardM

On Thu, 18 Apr 2019 at 18:20, Jennifer Pryor-Summers <
jennifer.pryorsumm...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Peter
>
> Our brand is already on it in these cases, and yes it would be sending a
> > message - "We want you to risk your time and effort on our projects but
> we
> > may later decide to discard everything you worked for"
> >
>
> I don;t think "discard" is right.  The message would be "... but if it
> doesn't work out then we won't continue to waste your time and effort and
> our donations indefinitely". That's realistic.
>
> JPS
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 


Re: [Wikimedia-l] Reviewing our brand system for our 2030 goals

2019-04-18 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Jennifer,
So you did not say it because you did not do the researce but when a
minority of our community does not identify themselves as "Wikipedians" it
does not matter. Sorry, but that is EXACTLY what I said. What you indicate
is that a minority may be ignored. Why else do "the research" but to
provide grounds to change "the brand" anyway?

As to problems with projects, Wikipedia has its problems with citations as
you indicate in another mail. At Wikidata a whole lot of effort is ongoing
to include items for sources used for citations in all the Wikipedias. At
the same time there is new functionality to find/focus on those instances
where citations are lacking using AI. At some stage these two developments
will meet. We know about other issues in Wikipedias and as you may know,
Wikipedians are stubborn, uncooperative and reject what others have to
offer.

To put it bluntly, the majority smothers the minority, prevents others from
bringing new developments to a state where it obviously improves on the
old. Past experience shows there will always be a vocal group from the
majority preventing change.

Wikipedia as a brand will prove destructive.
Thanks,
  GerardM



On Thu, 18 Apr 2019 at 18:16, Jennifer Pryor-Summers <
jennifer.pryorsumm...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Gerard
>
> >
> > So it is ok to deny the minority that insists they are not?
> >
> > I didn't say that at all.  I merely suggest that the reality is that the
> majority of volunteers take a certain view of themselves (that they are
> Wikpedians first and foremost ), and that the ones who take a different
> view of themselves (that they are Wikmedians first and foremost) are in the
> minority. That is a proposition which is capable of being tested: I have
> not done that test.  If it were to turn out to be true, as I sugest it is,
> that would not be to "deny the minority", it would simply be to state that
> the minority turns out as a matter of fact to be a minority.
>
> JPS
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 


Re: [Wikimedia-l] Reviewing our brand system for our 2030 goals

2019-04-18 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
So it is ok to deny the minority that insists they are not?
Thanks,
GerardM

On Thu, 18 Apr 2019 at 08:32, Jennifer Pryor-Summers <
jennifer.pryorsumm...@gmail.com> wrote:

> >
> >
> > You can't be a member of "The Wikipedia Movement".
> >
> >
> I suggest that this claimed impossibility is in fact exactly what the vast
> majority of the volunteers believe that they are.
>
> JPS
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 


Re: [Wikimedia-l] branding is bikeshedding, how about CTO criteria or working group lists instead?

2019-04-16 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
Fine. Obviously we disagree on what we read in the same text. Now what
would be the "correct way" to address a perceived sense of superiority ?
Thanks,
  GerardM

On Tue, 16 Apr 2019 at 11:24, Dan Garry (Deskana)  wrote:

> On Tue, 16 Apr 2019 at 10:14, Gerard Meijssen 
> wrote:
>
> > Hoi,
> > Thank you for your sense of superiority..
>
>
> It's not helpful to sarcastically "thank" someone like this. I don't find
> Chris to have had a sense of superiority in his email, but even if he had,
> this is not the correct way to address it.
>
> Dan
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 
<mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

Re: [Wikimedia-l] branding is bikeshedding, how about CTO criteria or working group lists instead?

2019-04-16 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
Thank you for your sense of superiority.. the views on this list are "easy
to have"and "not the big, difficult questions".

These are some big difficult questions I can come up with:

   - how will we deal with the existing bias that is Anglo-American..
   - how will we deal with the existing bias that is articles in Wikipedia,
   our aim is to share in the sum of all knowledge..
   - how will we deal with the 6% error rates that is in Wikipedia lists

There are more issues but, hey you should not overload one email and deal
with multiple issues.. So lets focus on what *you* consider the big
difficult questions making this rebranding issue not so relevant..
Thanks,
  GerardM

On Tue, 16 Apr 2019 at 10:53, Chris Keating 
wrote:

> In many ways yes - not that branding isnt important, but these two
> conversations are a great example of people engaging with the narrow
> questions that are easy to have a view on, and not the big, difficult
> questions.
>
> (Though also, there is nothing more interesting on the working group email
> lists - the summaries are high level and the documents are high level
> because that's where we're at)
>
> On Mon, 15 Apr 2019, 21:09 James Salsman,  wrote:
>
> > I withdraw any opinions and suggestions about the branding discussion,
> > and don't intend to continue participating in it. Instead, I would
> > like to have a more substantive discussion:
> >
> > (1) I ask that the CTO search team please publish their search and
> > requirement criteria, including the CTO job description and any and
> > all goals for the CTO position whether in current planning documents
> > or unpublished drafts of planning materials.
> >
> > (2) Why are the Strategy Working Group lists not on
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo ? I recall several people
> > involved with the strategy process as saying it is "open" and asking
> > at length for additional participation (e.g.
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxCFzA3PEaQ=23m and
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxCFzA3PEaQ=30m et seq.) To be
> > honest, there doesn't seem to be much community engagement from
> > working groups or strategy process facilitators on meta, and the
> > meeting summaries are very abstract and difficult to understand. If
> > there is a need for private strategy working group communications, can
> > people use off-list emails instead?
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Jim
> >
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 


Re: [Wikimedia-l] Reviewing our brand system for our 2030 goals

2019-04-14 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
Yes there is a noticeable difference. Costs for changing websites,
stationary and the like are not budgeted for. Given that budgets do not
account for such nonsense it is not an "easy" test. It is also not a test
because when the test proves negative you double the cost.
Thanks,
 GerardM

On Sun, 14 Apr 2019 at 10:45, Ed Saperia  wrote:

> Maybe there’s an easy way to just test this? A chapter could start calling
> itself e.g. Wikipedia UK in its comms for a year and see if there’s any
> noticeable difference?
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On 14 Apr 2019, at 01:47, phoebe ayers  wrote:
> >
> > On Sat, Apr 13, 2019 at 2:29 PM Rebecca O'Neill  >
> > wrote:
> >
> >> I agree Galder!
> >>
> >> I would like to respond to Phoebe's comment on not wanting to draw
> people
> >> to the *Wikimedia* movement is not true of the Irish experience. We have
> >> some idea of an editing community that aren't interested in getting
> >> involved in our user group (and probably never will be), so we are very
> >> keen to draw people to volunteering as Wikimedians not just as editors.
> >> Presenting our group as something more than people who are experienced
> >> Wikipedia editors is very important to us, and anything that makes that
> >> message easier would be of huge benefit to us.
> >>
> >
> > Dear Rebecca,
> > Thanks for this. Let me try to explain my thinking a bit more...
> > I too want people to join Wikimedia New England, which is the group I'm
> > currently running. And in general, I want a thriving and healthy
> ecosystem
> > of affiliates. But I want that to be true because the work that chapters,
> > affiliates and the Foundation itself does is meant to be enabling for the
> > larger goal of making free knowledge available, and specifically for
> > improving and sustaining Wikipedia and her sister projects.
> >
> > Everything that the groups do - from building the technical/legal
> > infrastructure side, to training new editors, to providing a friendly
> > geographic or topical face to Wikipedia, to doing outreach, to supporting
> > existing editors - is a means to an end. It is not the end itself. We do
> > this multivarious work because we recognize that there are many, many
> > effective ways to contribute in a project as complex as ours, and that
> > participants can sometimes best find a home in ways that are not directly
> > editing. But equally: there are of course other means to this end of
> > building free knowledge that have nothing to do with the Wikimedia group/
> > structure, most notably the thousands of independent volunteers who work
> > largely alone to maintain and build the projects, and upon whose work we
> > all depend. Groups, and the Foundation, are important! But they are not,
> in
> > themselves, the end goal.
> >
> > So where does this leave us with rebranding? I admit I haven't read all
> of
> > the comments/analysis. But, to my mind, there's a cost to rebranding: the
> > several hundred person-hours that have already been put into this
> > discussion, if nothing else. For the benefit to outweigh the cost, we
> need
> > to imagine what will happen to increase participation in building free
> > knowledge as a result. If we are "Wikipedia New England" or "Wikipedia
> > Ireland" et al, will our groups be more effective -- for instance, with
> an
> > easier to understand name, will new people join our trainings, perhaps
> > becoming Wikipedia editors? Will more cultural institutions reach out,
> and
> > be more amenable to releasing images? If the Foundation is the Wikipedia
> > Foundation, then how does this improve the infrastructure that the
> > Foundation provides, exactly?
> >
> > If the answer is that this change will definitely increase participation
> in
> > the projects and free knowledge generally, through the mechanism of the
> > various groups being more recognizable and thus reaching a bigger
> audience,
> > then the proposal is worth seriously considering. But if it is hard to
> > imagine - and I admit I do find it hard to imagine that the name of the
> > Foundation is the thing standing in our way to wider Wikipedia
> > participation - then it doesn't seem worth the cost.
> >
> > -- Phoebe
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
>
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 

  1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   >