Re: [Wikimedia-l] Updated Terms of Use
On May 1, 2012, at 1:38 PM, Jussi-Ville Heiskanen cimonav...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 4:47 PM, Nathan nawr...@gmail.com wrote: Richard, you removed some relevant language: Certain activities, whether legal or illegal, may be harmful to other users and violate our rules, and some activities may also subject you to liability. Therefore, for your own protection and for that of other users, *you may not engage in such activities on our sites*. These activities include: [..] Using the services in a manner that is inconsistent with applicable law. I think that expecting the ToS to condone violations of laws that are in some way anti-freedom is unrealistic. It seems like it would be difficult to craft language to do that well. ~Nathan Would you like an opportunity to phrase that language in a sense that does not suggest Wikimedia is in support of laws that are anti-freedom? -- -- Jussi-Ville Heiskanen, ~ [[User:Cimon Avaro]] It seems to be that the point of this section is that WMF does not condone users to use the sites in a fashion which breaks their local laws; therefore WMF itself may not be procesuted for conspiracy nor will WMF be liable civilly to users who were prosecuted locally and wish to recieve compensation. If the WMF did not disavow an intention to promote locally illegal things (like Germans printing Swatika images found on Commons), they would be open to liability that would result money going to lawyers. Really very, very few countries have a right to free speech as strong as the US, including countries were WMF actually has significant assets. China is not the issue here. Encouraging people outside the US to live as though they live inside it, is neither wise nor ethical. BirgitteSB ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Updated Terms of Use
birgitte...@yahoo.com, 03/05/2012 14:17: Encouraging people outside the US to live as though they live inside it, is neither wise nor ethical. On the other hand, this is what happens (o could have happened) in other parts of the Terms of use which apply to /users/ (not their contributions) the USA laws where they're more restrictive. The whole section Refraining from Certain Activities has this problem, which is very hard to avoid given that nobody really knows what the applicable law is. There was a lot of work on this part as well, I'm not able to judge the results. Both problems originate from the decision to enforce via a private contract the state laws (privatization of justice or statement of the obvious? I don't know). The old ToU left everything implicit (or were reticent, depending on how you see it). Nemo ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Updated Terms of Use
On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 9:45 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) nemow...@gmail.comwrote: birgitte...@yahoo.com, 03/05/2012 14:17: Encouraging people outside the US to live as though they live inside it, is neither wise nor ethical. On the other hand, this is what happens (o could have happened) in other parts of the Terms of use which apply to /users/ (not their contributions) the USA laws where they're more restrictive. The whole section Refraining from Certain Activities has this problem, which is very hard to avoid given that nobody really knows what the applicable law is. There was a lot of work on this part as well, I'm not able to judge the results. Both problems originate from the decision to enforce via a private contract the state laws (privatization of justice or statement of the obvious? I don't know). The old ToU left everything implicit (or were reticent, depending on how you see it). Nemo It only makes sense to be somewhat explicit about the laws that apply, since they apply regardless of their presence in the ToU. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Updated Terms of Use
Tell me what I am missing here. please. Do these new rules not mean Chinese internet users are violating our terms of service, if they evade Chinese state censorhip to view our content? -- -- Jussi-Ville Heiskanen, ~ [[User:Cimon Avaro]] ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Updated Terms of Use
Richard, you removed some relevant language: Certain activities, whether legal or illegal, may be harmful to other users and violate our rules, and some activities may also subject you to liability. Therefore, for your own protection and for that of other users, *you may not engage in such activities on our sites*. These activities include: [..] Using the services in a manner that is inconsistent with applicable law. I think that expecting the ToS to condone violations of laws that are in some way anti-freedom is unrealistic. It seems like it would be difficult to craft language to do that well. ~Nathan On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 9:34 AM, Richard Symonds richard.symo...@wikimedia.org.uk wrote: I don't think it does say that, or if it does, I can't see where. You're certainly liable if you break a law in your own country, but I don't think you've broken the terms of use. It says that Certain activites may subject you to liabilities... [for example] using the services in a manner that is inconsistent with applicable law. This means, to my eyes, that you're potentially liable (to someone) if you break the law in your own country - which makes perfect sense to me. But then, I am not a lawyer, nor do I work for the WMF. Richard Symonds Wikimedia UK 0207 065 0992 Disclaimer viewable at http://uk.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia:Email_disclaimer Visit http://www.wikimedia.org.uk/ and @wikimediauk ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Updated Terms of Use
On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 4:47 PM, Nathan nawr...@gmail.com wrote: Richard, you removed some relevant language: Certain activities, whether legal or illegal, may be harmful to other users and violate our rules, and some activities may also subject you to liability. Therefore, for your own protection and for that of other users, *you may not engage in such activities on our sites*. These activities include: [..] Using the services in a manner that is inconsistent with applicable law. I think that expecting the ToS to condone violations of laws that are in some way anti-freedom is unrealistic. It seems like it would be difficult to craft language to do that well. ~Nathan Would you like an opportunity to phrase that language in a sense that does not suggest Wikimedia is in support of laws that are anti-freedom? -- -- Jussi-Ville Heiskanen, ~ [[User:Cimon Avaro]] ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Updated Terms of Use
Birgitte, Andrew, thank you for your kind words. True credit on this one goes to Maggie, Geoff, and the community members who worked countless hours with them and discussed in great detail almost every word of the thing. I think everyone involved would tell you that it was a thoughtful, deliberative, and truly exhausting process but it was amazing in its collegiality in the final product. I'm proud to be part of the team that worked on this, but my role was small... my hat is off to Maggie, Geoff, and all the others who participated (below, I have listed everyone with more than 15 edits to the talk page where it was developed.) Community Members with more than 15 edits to the Talk page: Geoffbrigham Mdennis (WMF) WhatamIdoing Filceolaire FT2 Peteforsyth Michaeldsuarez Seth Finkelstein Angel54 5 Seb az86556 WereSpielChequers Steven (WMF) Rosenkohl Esetzer Wnt Teofilo Philippe (WMF) John Vandenberg Danhash Rich Farmbrough Dcoetzee 62.140.210.130 Григор Гачев ___ Philippe Beaudette Director, Community Advocacy Wikimedia Foundation, Inc. 415-839-6885, x 6643 phili...@wikimedia.org On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 4:48 PM, birgitte...@yahoo.com wrote: On Apr 27, 2012, at 12:49 AM, Andrew Garrett agarr...@wikimedia.org wrote: On Thu, Apr 26, 2012 at 2:26 AM, Philippe Beaudette phili...@wikimedia.orgwrote: Hi everyone, As you may be aware, Wikimedia has updated its Terms of Use. This updated version will become effective on May 25, 2012, and can be reviewed herehttp://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Terms_of_Use_%282012%29/en .[1] A short overview of some of the changes is set out herehttp://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/New_Terms_of_use. [2] Best wishes, Philippe Terms of use are boring, and most of us are pretty jaded by how impenetrable, legalistic and, well, awful, most terms of use are on the internet. I want to congratulate you and your department on NOT doing this. The new terms of use are written in clear English, well set out, and cover what seem to be the appropriate bases without being overly verbose and cautious. Well done, Philippe, Geoff, and everyone else. I am also impressed. It actually ends up being the best one piece introduction to what Wikimedia *is* that I have ever read. A lot of thought and consideration were soundly invested in that document. Clarity on that level is HARD, but well worth the effort. I also am thinking that the staff have just set a rather high bar for the board. Imagine if all board resolutions were written with as just as much focus on clarity and as on circumspection. These terms of use show it is possible. Birgitte SB ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
[Wikimedia-l] Updated Terms of Use
Kudos to the community and WMF teams for creating this outstanding document! I love the brevity, clarity -- and yes, elegance -- of your human-readable summary. I'm amazed that you managed to fit our most important goals, rights and responsibilities into just 12 bullet points. It's an inspiring achievement, which I will seek to emulate in my own work. Well done, everybody! Fabrice __ Fabrice Florin Product Manager, Editor Engagement Wikimedia Foundation +1 (415) 839-6885 ext. 6827 work fflo...@wikimedia.org On Apr 28, 2012, at 5:00 AM, wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org wrote: Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2012 23:43:04 -0700 From: Philippe Beaudette phili...@wikimedia.org To: Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Updated Terms of Use Message-ID: capb+ky_omsnlpit3jwhjzslzzccvmtahb+g84jop2wy97_d...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Birgitte, Andrew, thank you for your kind words. True credit on this one goes to Maggie, Geoff, and the community members who worked countless hours with them and discussed in great detail almost every word of the thing. I think everyone involved would tell you that it was a thoughtful, deliberative, and truly exhausting process but it was amazing in its collegiality in the final product. I'm proud to be part of the team that worked on this, but my role was small... my hat is off to Maggie, Geoff, and all the others who participated (below, I have listed everyone with more than 15 edits to the talk page where it was developed.) Community Members with more than 15 edits to the Talk page: Geoffbrigham Mdennis (WMF) WhatamIdoing Filceolaire FT2 Peteforsyth Michaeldsuarez Seth Finkelstein Angel54 5 Seb az86556 WereSpielChequers Steven (WMF) Rosenkohl Esetzer Wnt Teofilo Philippe (WMF) John Vandenberg Danhash Rich Farmbrough Dcoetzee 62.140.210.130 ?? ? ___ Philippe Beaudette Director, Community Advocacy Wikimedia Foundation, Inc. 415-839-6885, x 6643 phili...@wikimedia.org On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 4:48 PM, birgitte...@yahoo.com wrote: On Apr 27, 2012, at 12:49 AM, Andrew Garrett agarr...@wikimedia.org wrote: On Thu, Apr 26, 2012 at 2:26 AM, Philippe Beaudette phili...@wikimedia.orgwrote: Hi everyone, As you may be aware, Wikimedia has updated its Terms of Use. This updated version will become effective on May 25, 2012, and can be reviewed herehttp://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Terms_of_Use_%282012%29/en .[1] A short overview of some of the changes is set out herehttp://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/New_Terms_of_use. [2] Best wishes, Philippe Terms of use are boring, and most of us are pretty jaded by how impenetrable, legalistic and, well, awful, most terms of use are on the internet. I want to congratulate you and your department on NOT doing this. The new terms of use are written in clear English, well set out, and cover what seem to be the appropriate bases without being overly verbose and cautious. Well done, Philippe, Geoff, and everyone else. I am also impressed. It actually ends up being the best one piece introduction to what Wikimedia *is* that I have ever read. A lot of thought and consideration were soundly invested in that document. Clarity on that level is HARD, but well worth the effort. I also am thinking that the staff have just set a rather high bar for the board. Imagine if all board resolutions were written with as just as much focus on clarity and as on circumspection. These terms of use show it is possible. Birgitte SB ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l -- ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l End of Wikimedia-l Digest, Vol 97, Issue 81 *** ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Updated Terms of Use
On Apr 27, 2012, at 12:49 AM, Andrew Garrett agarr...@wikimedia.org wrote: On Thu, Apr 26, 2012 at 2:26 AM, Philippe Beaudette phili...@wikimedia.orgwrote: Hi everyone, As you may be aware, Wikimedia has updated its Terms of Use. This updated version will become effective on May 25, 2012, and can be reviewed herehttp://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Terms_of_Use_%282012%29/en.[1] A short overview of some of the changes is set out herehttp://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/New_Terms_of_use. [2] Best wishes, Philippe Terms of use are boring, and most of us are pretty jaded by how impenetrable, legalistic and, well, awful, most terms of use are on the internet. I want to congratulate you and your department on NOT doing this. The new terms of use are written in clear English, well set out, and cover what seem to be the appropriate bases without being overly verbose and cautious. Well done, Philippe, Geoff, and everyone else. I am also impressed. It actually ends up being the best one piece introduction to what Wikimedia *is* that I have ever read. A lot of thought and consideration were soundly invested in that document. Clarity on that level is HARD, but well worth the effort. I also am thinking that the staff have just set a rather high bar for the board. Imagine if all board resolutions were written with as just as much focus on clarity and as on circumspection. These terms of use show it is possible. Birgitte SB ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
