Re: [Wikimedia-l] How Wikimedia could help languages to survive

2014-04-27 Thread Federico Leva (Nemo)
Seb35, 26/04/2014 14:11: invent neologisms and terminology The five pillars have only been codified to a degree on global level, so one may care or not, but this would clearly be original research. And I say so as someone whose first edit in 2005 added some neologisms to Wiktionary; again,

Re: [Wikimedia-l] How Wikimedia could help languages to survive

2014-04-27 Thread Milos Rancic
Here are some bad and some good news... The bad news is that I've finally realized why I needed a separate wiki for data. It's about restrictive Ethnologue's ToS [1]. In other words, I could say to myself just: Welcome back to the wonderful world of licenses! So, I've created a private wiki with

Re: [Wikimedia-l] How Wikimedia could help languages to survive

2014-04-26 Thread Seb35
Hei, As a supporter of language diversity, I’m a bit sad of this thread because some people find we should not engage in language revitalisation because: 1/ it’s not explicitely in our scope (and I don’t fully aggree: sum of all knowledge also includes minority cultures expressed in their

Re: [Wikimedia-l] How Wikimedia could help languages to survive

2014-04-26 Thread Samuel Klein
Seb, I agree with you 100%. We need to advertise more clearly how the current projects, without modification of scope and purpose, can be useful tools and platforms for linguists and preservationists to extend and share their work. In the US, we have had good relations with the Long Now

Re: [Wikimedia-l] How Wikimedia could help languages to survive

2014-04-24 Thread Federico Leva (Nemo)
Comet styles, 24/04/2014 00:57: on the left of whatever page in their vernacular language welcoming them and asking them if they want to be part of Wikipedia Fiji with a direct link to that language wikipedia's This will be achieved by the following two features combined when/if made default:

Re: [Wikimedia-l] How Wikimedia could help languages to survive

2014-04-23 Thread Comet styles
A few years back i came with an idea, I know wikimedia is not fond of advertisements but what if we advertise wikipedia? There is a nice big EMPTY space on the bottom left side of wikipedia. Make a script/feature/extension which detects the person browsing the wiki's IP and shows them a link to

Re: [Wikimedia-l] How Wikimedia could help languages to survive

2014-04-22 Thread Carlos M. Colina
El 21/04/2014 02:15 a.m., Asaf Bartov escribió: 3. An example: some time ago, our colleagues in Chile wanted to spend (not a lot of) movement funds on printing the Welcome to Wikipedia booklet in Rapa Nui. Rapa Nui is (perhaps) spoken by fewer than 3000 people, no doubt mostly without facility

Re: [Wikimedia-l] How Wikimedia could help languages to survive

2014-04-22 Thread Federico Leva (Nemo)
Milos Rancic, 21/04/2014 00:18: * Nemo, the right approach is: those projects failed and there are reasons for that. What are the reasons? How can we fix it in future cases? How can we revive failed projects? I don't accept not possible answer:) Sometimes you have to accept it. :) I only talk

Re: [Wikimedia-l] How Wikimedia could help languages to survive

2014-04-22 Thread Ting Chen
Hello Milos, welcome back. Basically I agree with your attitude, with one difference: I don't think that anyone can help languages survive. What we can do, is to help conserve them. Greetings Ting ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list

Re: [Wikimedia-l] How Wikimedia could help languages to survive

2014-04-22 Thread Amir E. Aharoni
This is not quite correct. It's very hard, but possible. But Wikimedia alone cannot do it. Wikimedia can be one of the tools that are used by the cultural elite, which Milos brought up. Each of these languages needs people like [[Pompeu Fabra]] and [[Vuk Stefanović Karadžić]] and, dare I say,

Re: [Wikimedia-l] How Wikimedia could help languages to survive

2014-04-22 Thread Andrea Zanni
[snip] For the things we could do, I quote form other people: * encourage Wikisource, Commons, Wiktionary as primary projects for new/endangered languages. You could scan books or documents if the language is written, or record audio/interviews and put that on Commons if t the language is just

Re: [Wikimedia-l] How Wikimedia could help languages to survive

2014-04-22 Thread Chris Keating
I'd certainly take quite a broad view of which languages fulfill our mission. Certainly I wouldn't be comfortable with arguments as simple as All people who speak Y also read X, so there's no purpose putting resources into Y. Wikimedia UK does little work with Gaelic, but quite a bit with Welsh;

Re: [Wikimedia-l] How Wikimedia could help languages to survive

2014-04-22 Thread Amir E. Aharoni
I cannot cite anything, but there should be studies that show that even though most people are bilingual or reported as bilingual in their regional language and another major language, they are more comfortable in getting education in their regional language. I'm pretty sure that there are such

Re: [Wikimedia-l] How Wikimedia could help languages to survive

2014-04-22 Thread Milos Rancic
On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 1:30 PM, Amir E. Aharoni amir.ahar...@mail.huji.ac.il wrote: This is not quite correct. It's very hard, but possible. But Wikimedia alone cannot do it. Wikimedia can be one of the tools that are used by the cultural elite, which Milos brought up. Each of these languages

Re: [Wikimedia-l] How Wikimedia could help languages to survive

2014-04-22 Thread Amir E. Aharoni
With this I agree. If this depended on me, I'd give this resources. -- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com ‪“We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬ 2014-04-22 15:43 GMT+03:00 Milos Rancic mill...@gmail.com: On Tue, Apr 22,

Re: [Wikimedia-l] How Wikimedia could help languages to survive

2014-04-22 Thread Milos Rancic
On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 2:37 PM, Amir E. Aharoni amir.ahar...@mail.huji.ac.il wrote: Projects that are focused on language revitalization per se should be given less priority when resources are limited, even though it breaks my heart to say this. I don't think that we are dealing here with

Re: [Wikimedia-l] How Wikimedia could help languages to survive

2014-04-22 Thread Milos Rancic
On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 2:25 PM, Chris Keating chriskeatingw...@gmail.com wrote: Wikimedia UK does little work with Gaelic, but quite a bit with Welsh; I wonder if Robin Owain reads this list? He's a good person to speak to about this. I mentioned Scots Gaelic with a good reason. Not counting

Re: [Wikimedia-l] How Wikimedia could help languages to survive

2014-04-22 Thread Milos Rancic
On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 3:09 PM, Milos Rancic mill...@gmail.com wrote: That means that it's the best starting point to raise that number from 157 per million to ~1000 per million. If WM UK would be successful in achieving that goal, we'd know that it's possible. And we'll have some ideas how

Re: [Wikimedia-l] How Wikimedia could help languages to survive

2014-04-22 Thread Milos Rancic
On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 3:12 PM, Milos Rancic mill...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 3:09 PM, Milos Rancic mill...@gmail.com wrote: That means that it's the best starting point to raise that number from 157 per million to ~1000 per million. If WM UK would be successful in achieving

Re: [Wikimedia-l] How Wikimedia could help languages to survive

2014-04-22 Thread Emilio J . Rodríguez-Posada
How many languages exist? |_ How many languages have written works? |_How many languages have UNICODE support? That is the max number of Wikisource projects we can create :-P 2014-04-22 15:12 GMT+02:00 Milos Rancic mill...@gmail.com: On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 3:12 PM, Milos Rancic

Re: [Wikimedia-l] How Wikimedia could help languages to survive

2014-04-22 Thread Amir E. Aharoni
Unicode support is not that big of a deal. It's growing all the time, and the Unicode standard itself is ahead of Wikipedia and will likely remain ahead of it for a while. The operating systems' actual support for it is far from perfect, but it isn't a huge in itself either. Existence of written

Re: [Wikimedia-l] How Wikimedia could help languages to survive

2014-04-22 Thread Mike Linksvayer
On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 5:37 AM, Amir E. Aharoni amir.ahar...@mail.huji.ac.il wrote: I cannot cite anything, but there should be studies that show that even though most people are bilingual or reported as bilingual in their regional language and another major language, they are more

Re: [Wikimedia-l] How Wikimedia could help languages to survive

2014-04-22 Thread ido ivri
From: Chris Keating chriskeatingw...@gmail.com To: Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] How Wikimedia could help languages to survive Message-ID: CAFche1o5L12Qvr30cPJaCp7O47iVMF2ema6YZn=JX72W= ve...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text

Re: [Wikimedia-l] How Wikimedia could help languages to survive

2014-04-22 Thread phoebe ayers
On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 5:18 AM, Andrea Zanni zanni.andre...@gmail.comwrote: [snip] For the things we could do, I quote form other people: * encourage Wikisource, Commons, Wiktionary as primary projects for new/endangered languages. You could scan books or documents if the language is

Re: [Wikimedia-l] How Wikimedia could help languages to survive

2014-04-21 Thread phoebe ayers
On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 4:15 PM, Asaf Bartov abar...@wikimedia.org wrote: Interesting thoughts. I have a few brief comments, and will engage further (on Meta, perhaps) later: 2. This does include free knowledge _about_ every last language of the world, so by all means: let us preserve all

Re: [Wikimedia-l] How Wikimedia could help languages to survive

2014-04-20 Thread geni
On 20 April 2014 04:46, Milos Rancic mill...@gmail.com wrote: I'd say that Scots Gaelic could be a good test (Wikimedia UK help needed!). It's a language with ~70k of speakers and if it's possible to achieve 100 active editors per month, we could say that it could somehow work in other

Re: [Wikimedia-l] How Wikimedia could help languages to survive

2014-04-20 Thread Hubert Laska
Hi Milos, at the same time when you are concerned about the collection / preservation of thousands of languages, I will briefly introduce a project that currently takes place in Austria together with the Austrian Academy of Sciences. This project has the same goal direction, which you mention,

Re: [Wikimedia-l] How Wikimedia could help languages to survive

2014-04-20 Thread Hubert Laska
Am 20.04.2014 08:38, schrieb geni: On 20 April 2014 04:46, Milos Rancic mill...@gmail.com wrote: I'd say that Scots Gaelic could be a good test (Wikimedia UK help needed!). It's a language with ~70k of speakers and if it's possible to achieve 100 active editors per month, we could say that it

Re: [Wikimedia-l] How Wikimedia could help languages to survive

2014-04-20 Thread geni
On 20 April 2014 09:32, Hubert Laska hubert.la...@gmx.at wrote: What do you want to say with that? That it is thus no longer necessary, gaelic to lead as an example? Wikipedia does´nt end at national borders! Wikimedia UK however does. There is also the issue of changing political status.

Re: [Wikimedia-l] How Wikimedia could help languages to survive

2014-04-20 Thread Federico Leva (Nemo)
Milos Rancic, 20/04/2014 05:46: Why should we do that? The answer is clear to me: Because we can. Can we? There is no evidence that our minuscule wikipedias have had any influence whatsoever on unofficial languages like, say, the alleged lumbard (lmo) dialect. It's probably more effective to

Re: [Wikimedia-l] How Wikimedia could help languages to survive

2014-04-20 Thread Chris McKenna
On Sun, 20 Apr 2014, geni wrote: On 20 April 2014 09:32, Hubert Laska hubert.la...@gmx.at wrote: What do you want to say with that? That it is thus no longer necessary, gaelic to lead as an example? Wikipedia does´nt end at national borders! Wikimedia UK however does. There is also the

Re: [Wikimedia-l] How Wikimedia could help languages to survive

2014-04-20 Thread Balázs Viczián
imo there are a whole bunch of organizations and projects much better aimed and developed towards this question; I'd rather map them and contact the most developed ones instead of reinventing the wheel. Cheers, Balazs PS: This because we can reasoning is very very thin btw. (source?) 2014-04-20

Re: [Wikimedia-l] How Wikimedia could help languages to survive

2014-04-20 Thread Amir E. Aharoni
2014-04-20 6:46 GMT+03:00 Milos Rancic mill...@gmail.com: There is the question: Why should we do that? The answer is clear to me: Because we can. You'll be hard-pressed to find a lot of people who support the general idea more than I do, but precisely because of that I believe that we must be

Re: [Wikimedia-l] How Wikimedia could help languages to survive

2014-04-20 Thread Milos Rancic
First, I want to respond to the structural questions, among them some which I didn't mention: In short, we can because we have organizational infrastructure, capable to work with local people and bring them to edit Wikipedia and other Wikimedia projects. That's not the rocket science. Working

Re: [Wikimedia-l] How Wikimedia could help languages to survive

2014-04-20 Thread Asaf Bartov
Interesting thoughts. I have a few brief comments, and will engage further (on Meta, perhaps) later: 0. because we can is indeed a very poor reason to do anything. We are also probably the only global network that can ensure complete coverage of all Pokémon characters in 100 languages. That's

Re: [Wikimedia-l] How Wikimedia could help languages to survive

2014-04-20 Thread Milos Rancic
On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 1:15 AM, Asaf Bartov abar...@wikimedia.org wrote: 0. because we can is indeed a very poor reason to do anything. We are also probably the only global network that can ensure complete coverage of all Pokémon characters in 100 languages. That's far from proof that we

Re: [Wikimedia-l] How Wikimedia could help languages to survive

2014-04-20 Thread Milos Rancic
On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 1:15 AM, Asaf Bartov abar...@wikimedia.org wrote: 4. What does interest me, as a grantmaker, is where to draw the line between the Rapa Nui end of the spectrum and languages that, with some active promotion, could well become useful and much-needed reference sources in

[Wikimedia-l] How Wikimedia could help languages to survive

2014-04-19 Thread Milos Rancic
There are ~6000 languages in the world and around 3000 of them have more than 10,000 speakers. That approximation has some issues, but they are compensated by the ambiguity of the opposition. Ethnologue is not the best place to find precise data about the languages and it could count as languages