Re: [Wikimedia-l] Piloting a Discourse installation for discussion (was: Better thankspam)

[Milos Rancic]

On Fri, Jan 15, 2016 at 5:34 PM, Asaf Bartov  wrote:
> I assume many have muted or are ignoring the "thankspam" thread, but it has
> changed topic rather meaningfully, and I think it deserves broader
> attention.

I see now why Discourse is a problem...

I wanted to install it, so we could test it and then move to a WMF
server. I wasn't fully demotivated after I've seen it's written in
Ruby (nothing against syntax, but on infrastructure side it's easier
to install .NET framework on Linux). Then they say the only way they
support installation is via Docker.

No, thanks.

They obviously need to mature and produce a sensible framework for
software installation. Until then, good old Mailman is our most
realistic solution.

-- 
Milos

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Piloting a Discourse installation for discussion (was: Better thankspam)

[Erik Bernhardson]

On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 12:34 PM, Milos Rancic  wrote:

> On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 9:22 PM, Andrea Zanni 
> wrote:
> > Why?
> > As a user, you would just need to login and participate, Discourse is
> like
> > a website. You don't need to install anything.
> > I don't understand your point.
>
> I am speaking as an admin, not as a user :P
>
> In brief, software is not stable. And it's not just that, but the
> developers don't know their software well enough to offer a sensible
> installation guide. I wouldn't use such software.
>
> Besides that, if there is no Docker environment (and I don't think so
> there is a Docker environment in WMF, though my information could be
> outdated), you have to create a double layer system just to install it
> according to their specification.
>
> Said so, I am sure there are masochists around, willing to install it :P
>
> --
> Milos
>
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>

FWIW, there is a docker role in wikimedia puppet and it's already used as
part of the labs infrastructure. Not sure how well tested it is yet, but
it's there.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Piloting a Discourse installation for discussion (was: Better thankspam)

[Milos Rancic]

On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 9:37 PM, Erik Bernhardson
 wrote:
> FWIW, there is a docker role in wikimedia puppet and it's already used as
> part of the labs infrastructure. Not sure how well tested it is yet, but
> it's there.

In this case I see a kind of solution:
* Install Discourse container on Labs per instructions and let it
handle "http(s)://discourse.wikimedia.org/"
* Forward every mail intended to reach wikimedia-l to Discourse as well.
* Forward every Discourse comment to wikimedia-l.

Theoretically, it could work. I mean, under the condition that
Discourse is capable to read properly mail headers, as well as to send
a decent emails back to wikimedia-l.

If it works, everybody who prefers to read emails in the old format
will be able to do that. Those who prefer Discourse web interface
would be able to do that, as well.

I don't expect discourse.wikimedia.org would be a large consumer of
traffic (CPU, RAM) at the beginning.

On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 9:46 PM, Vituzzu  wrote:
>> Said so, I am sure there are masochists around, willing to install it :P
>>
> Me neither, but it's worth a try neither me and you will have to handle :p

That's pretty relevant point! It takes time to switch from "No!" to
"Oh, I am not the admin here!".

-- 
Milos

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Piloting a Discourse installation for discussion (was: Better thankspam)

[Vituzzu]

Il 23/01/2016 21:34, Milos Rancic ha scritto:

I am speaking as an admin, not as a user :P

In brief, software is not stable. And it's not just that, but the
developers don't know their software well enough to offer a sensible
installation guide. I wouldn't use such software.
Let's say we can use it for open/public mailing lists. Though we're 
currently using a pretty outdated mailman version so we are not so safe.


Besides that, if there is no Docker environment (and I don't think so
there is a Docker environment in WMF, though my information could be
outdated), you have to create a double layer system just to install it
according to their specification.

Afair there's


Said so, I am sure there are masochists around, willing to install it :P


Me neither, but it's worth a try neither me and you will have to handle :p

Vito

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Piloting a Discourse installation for discussion (was: Better thankspam)

[Andrea Zanni]

Well,
Discourse is new but it's growing fast:
http://www.discourse.org/faq/customers/

Plus Mozilla:
https://discourse.mozilla-community.org/

and OKFN:
https://discuss.okfn.org/

I personally think that it could really help new people participate in our
discussions, so it's worth a try.

Aubrey

On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 9:34 PM, Milos Rancic  wrote:

> On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 9:22 PM, Andrea Zanni 
> wrote:
> > Why?
> > As a user, you would just need to login and participate, Discourse is
> like
> > a website. You don't need to install anything.
> > I don't understand your point.
>
> I am speaking as an admin, not as a user :P
>
> In brief, software is not stable. And it's not just that, but the
> developers don't know their software well enough to offer a sensible
> installation guide. I wouldn't use such software.
>
> Besides that, if there is no Docker environment (and I don't think so
> there is a Docker environment in WMF, though my information could be
> outdated), you have to create a double layer system just to install it
> according to their specification.
>
> Said so, I am sure there are masochists around, willing to install it :P
>
> --
> Milos
>
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Piloting a Discourse installation for discussion (was: Better thankspam)

[Erik Bernhardson]

On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 1:25 PM, Milos Rancic  wrote:

> On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 9:37 PM, Erik Bernhardson
>  wrote:
> > FWIW, there is a docker role in wikimedia puppet and it's already used as
> > part of the labs infrastructure. Not sure how well tested it is yet, but
> > it's there.
>
> In this case I see a kind of solution:
> * Install Discourse container on Labs per instructions and let it
> handle "http(s)://discourse.wikimedia.org/"
> * Forward every mail intended to reach wikimedia-l to Discourse as well.
> * Forward every Discourse comment to wikimedia-l.
>
> Theoretically, it could work. I mean, under the condition that
> Discourse is capable to read properly mail headers, as well as to send
> a decent emails back to wikimedia-l.
>
> If it works, everybody who prefers to read emails in the old format
> will be able to do that. Those who prefer Discourse web interface
> would be able to do that, as well.
>
> I don't expect discourse.wikimedia.org would be a large consumer of
> traffic (CPU, RAM) at the beginning.
>
> On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 9:46 PM, Vituzzu  wrote:
> >> Said so, I am sure there are masochists around, willing to install it :P
> >>
> > Me neither, but it's worth a try neither me and you will have to handle
> :p
>
> That's pretty relevant point! It takes time to switch from "No!" to
> "Oh, I am not the admin here!".
>
> --
> Milos
>
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> 
>


TBH setting up a discourse instance is the easy part. I've thrown up a
temporary instance at http://discourse.wmflabs.org.  I'm not sure how to go
about the rest though. Anyone who is interested in figuring out the rest
let me know and i can get you setup for admin mode.
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[Wikimedia-l] Piloting a Discourse installation for discussion (was: Better thankspam)

[Asaf Bartov]

I assume many have muted or are ignoring the "thankspam" thread, but it has
changed topic rather meaningfully, and I think it deserves broader
attention.

   A.

-- Forwarded message --
From: Luis Villa 
Date: Fri, Jan 15, 2016 at 8:31 AM
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Better thankspam
To: Wikimedia Mailing List 


On Fri, Jan 15, 2016 at 7:58 AM, Andy Mabbett 
wrote:

> On 15 January 2016 at 15:50, Guillaume Paumier
>  wrote:
>
> > moving Wikimedia mailing lists to Discourse
>
> What problem is this intended to solve?
>

Very short answer is "that mailing lists are an awful user experience for
most people". Longer, but still very partial, list at
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Discourse#What_we.27d_gain_.28user_experience.29

I'll add more there at some point, but probably not today.

Luis


--
Luis Villa
Sr. Director of Community Engagement
Wikimedia Foundation
*Working towards a world in which every single human being can freely share
in the sum of all knowledge.*
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-- 
Asaf Bartov
Wikimedia Foundation 

Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the
sum of all knowledge. Help us make it a reality!
https://donate.wikimedia.org
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Piloting a Discourse installation for discussion (was: Better thankspam)

[Gerard Meijssen]

Hoi,
Discourse is fine when it means that I will still receive my email and can
answer in that way.
Thanks,
 GerardM

On 15 January 2016 at 17:34, Asaf Bartov  wrote:

> I assume many have muted or are ignoring the "thankspam" thread, but it has
> changed topic rather meaningfully, and I think it deserves broader
> attention.
>
>A.
>
> -- Forwarded message --
> From: Luis Villa 
> Date: Fri, Jan 15, 2016 at 8:31 AM
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Better thankspam
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List 
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 15, 2016 at 7:58 AM, Andy Mabbett 
> wrote:
>
> > On 15 January 2016 at 15:50, Guillaume Paumier
> >  wrote:
> >
> > > moving Wikimedia mailing lists to Discourse
> >
> > What problem is this intended to solve?
> >
>
> Very short answer is "that mailing lists are an awful user experience for
> most people". Longer, but still very partial, list at
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Discourse#What_we.27d_gain_.28user_experience.29
>
> I'll add more there at some point, but probably not today.
>
> Luis
>
>
> --
> Luis Villa
> Sr. Director of Community Engagement
> Wikimedia Foundation
> *Working towards a world in which every single human being can freely share
> in the sum of all knowledge.*
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
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> 
>
>
>
> --
> Asaf Bartov
> Wikimedia Foundation 
>
> Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the
> sum of all knowledge. Help us make it a reality!
> https://donate.wikimedia.org
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> 
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