[Wikimedia-l] Travel Guide Naming poll open
Hi all, The naming poll for the Travel Guide site is now open. For the next 14 days, you may be eligible to vote for as many of the proposed names as you wish. For full details on voting criteria and other process notes as to how the name will be selected, please see the voting page at https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Travel_Guide/Naming_Process. Thanks, pb ___ Philippe Beaudette Director, Community Advocacy Wikimedia Foundation, Inc. 415-839-6885, x 6643 phili...@wikimedia.org ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Travel Guide RFC closing in 3,2,...
On 22 August 2012 22:39, Kim Bruning k...@bruning.xs4all.nl wrote: For those interested, a quick reminder: The travel guide RFC will (soft) close in 1 hour, 17 minutes as of the moment this mail is sent. (At 0:00, 23 August 2012 (UTC)) http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Travel_Guide Thanks for the pointer. For those wondering what the end result was, it was just under 4:1 in favour of taking on a new WT type project. There seems to have been a flurry of activity in the past few days, per the talk page - Internet Brands running a survey of their readers opposing the split, attempts to canvass WT editors to contribute to the RFC resulting in blocking and desysopping... all very messy. WikiVoyage seems to have started preparing for a migration (though this may only be an intermediate step) - http://www.wikivoyage.org/general/Migration_FAQ -- - Andrew Gray andrew.g...@dunelm.org.uk ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Travel Guide RFC closing in 3,2,...
I see none of the issues raised were really addressed. Another spam filled, little populated, project then. *sigh* Tom On 23 August 2012 11:53, Andrew Gray andrew.g...@dunelm.org.uk wrote: On 22 August 2012 22:39, Kim Bruning k...@bruning.xs4all.nl wrote: For those interested, a quick reminder: The travel guide RFC will (soft) close in 1 hour, 17 minutes as of the moment this mail is sent. (At 0:00, 23 August 2012 (UTC)) http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Travel_Guide Thanks for the pointer. For those wondering what the end result was, it was just under 4:1 in favour of taking on a new WT type project. There seems to have been a flurry of activity in the past few days, per the talk page - Internet Brands running a survey of their readers opposing the split, attempts to canvass WT editors to contribute to the RFC resulting in blocking and desysopping... all very messy. WikiVoyage seems to have started preparing for a migration (though this may only be an intermediate step) - http://www.wikivoyage.org/general/Migration_FAQ -- - Andrew Gray andrew.g...@dunelm.org.uk ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Travel Guide RFC closing in 3,2,...
Most of the issues where addressed. And they only way to determine if many of the concerns hold water is to simply try it. A travel guide will likely be heavily read and edited. As a comparison their are an approximately an equal number of medical articles on Wikipedia to travel articles. Yet the travel articles had a much higher number of dedicated editors. I hope that you Thomas do not see this as justification to delete the medical project? Also if you look at readership on Wikipedia. We have many thousands of article that receive little to no viewership I do not consider this viewership justification for deleting them. -- James Heilman MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian The Wikipedia Open Textbook of Medicine www.opentextbookofmedicine.com ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Travel Guide RFC closing in 3,2,...
And here's a very short note about the next steps: The board is reviewing the RfC and its talk page over the next week. We are going to share our thoughts with you soon on the RfC's talk page. Please feel free to leave comments there, that's still possible and will be read ;-) Regards, Alice On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 11:39 PM, Kim Bruning k...@bruning.xs4all.nl wrote: For those interested, a quick reminder: The travel guide RFC will (soft) close in 1 hour, 17 minutes as of the moment this mail is sent. (At 0:00, 23 August 2012 (UTC)) http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Travel_Guide sincerely, Kim Bruning ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
[Wikimedia-l] Travel Guide
A travel guide discussion will be taking place today at Wikimania during lunch. Representatives from Wikivoyage and from the editor community of WIkitravel will be hear to answer any questions. A request for comment is ongoing http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Travel_Guide -- James Heilman MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian The Wikipedia Open Textbook of Medicine www.opentextbookofmedicine.com ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Travel Guide
Hi James, where exactly are we going to meet? Arne Am 12.07.2012 07:54 schrieb James Heilman jmh...@gmail.com: A travel guide discussion will be taking place today at Wikimania during lunch. Representatives from Wikivoyage and from the editor community of WIkitravel will be hear to answer any questions. A request for comment is ongoing http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Travel_Guide -- James Heilman MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian The Wikipedia Open Textbook of Medicine www.opentextbookofmedicine.com ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Travel Guide Wiki
On Thu, Apr 12, 2012 at 11:41, Thomas Morton morton.tho...@googlemail.comwrote: What I think would be important to avoid is too much subjective information from one individual; for example, where I to write about York, UK I would recommend not going to the Jorvik centre (a main attraction) because I thought it overpriced and boring. Whilst my viewpoint on this is subjectively valid, it may not reflect the overall viewpoint of travellers to York (I know plenty of people who loved it)! NPOV aims to make sure that the most mainstream of these viewpoints if reflected - and any other viewpoints (i.e. hate it) are given space if deemed appropriate. The whole point of a travel guide is subjective information from individuals! However, there are travellers with different interests. Jorvik actually works out pretty well for travellers with children, for instance, but for (young) adults travelling on their own it's pretty overpriced, and not so interesting so that's what the guide should say. I don't think that's NPOV though, because the Jorvik probably think they're pretty awesome for everybody. So in summary I don't see that there is any real difference in our stance on this - it might just need a bit of rethinking. We'd like to express it as Traveller's Point of View. This really ties back into something more important; which is sourcing. I think one thing that WT sorely lacks is secondary sourcing the support the material, and that this would improve its content significantly. I'd be cautious of supporting a new WMF project that avoided sourcing in favour of mostly whatever the editors contribute from their experience. I think a good argument could be made for using personal experience to write a WT guide - but it should also incorporate good sourcing and editorial standards as developed here (Wikinews is a good example of where they successfully manage such a tradeoff). Uh, sourcing? While things like telephone numbers and addresses are clearly sourced from somewhere I tend to think that most travel guide writing is * original* creative work. We've also tried to maintain a slightly cheeky tone, which is hard to do in collaborative work. One further thing worth pointing out; from the discussions so far I gather the current host is unlikely to provide any technical support, such as a full dump for importing? This represents a problem to overcome because of attribution - any import would need a way to record the attribution history of each page (i.e. the authors) to comply with the licensing. I don't think pointing to the original WT page would work because, obviously, that could disappear etc. Just a point to remember. I'm more concerned that now that we're discussing this in a more-or-less public forum that they could get wind of it and start actively resisting. They could make things a bit more difficult, though there are XML back-ups out there which we could fall back on. I still think it's a good idea to not mention them or the collaborative travel guide we're talking about by name for the time being. I do very much prefer to think of them as a hosting provider than an owner, because that's what they do: hosting in return for the right to advertise on the site. They just happen to own the URL and, I believe, the name. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Travel Guide Wiki
We've mainly approached this issue encouraging the different groups of travellers to add relevant content for their areas. We specifically try to mix it all in, because we don't want to section anyone off. There was considerable controversy back in 2005 or so about adding an LBGT section to the guide template: most of the community came down on the side of mixing everything in. Likewise with family-friendly stuff like Jorvik. We have in fact strived for a level of neutrality among different kinds of travel. I think the particular policy document would be worth reading here: Be Fair http://wikitravel.org/en/Wikitravel:Be_fair I know, I know, I wrote that I'd rather not name the site, and there I go adding a link. I didn't want to cut and paste. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Travel Guide Wiki
What I think would be important to avoid is too much subjective information from one individual; for example, where I to write about York, UK I would recommend not going to the Jorvik centre (a main attraction) because I thought it overpriced and boring. Whilst my viewpoint on this is subjectively valid, it may not reflect the overall viewpoint of travellers to York (I know plenty of people who loved it)! NPOV aims to make sure that the most mainstream of these viewpoints if reflected - and any other viewpoints (i.e. hate it) are given space if deemed appropriate. The whole point of a travel guide is subjective information from individuals! Is it? I'd define it as useful advice for travellers. Subjective information from only a few people can be useless, because most people will have different viewpoints (for example; I would write about the beautiful historical parts of Amsterdam, but, say, a younger person could just have easily been looking for information on drug tourism). The point of NPOV is balancing these personal priorities to make sure the readers gets lots of useful information. Rather than say Don't bother walking up to the Sacré-Coeur, it's a long climb and not worth the bother you'd say The climb up to Sacré-Coeur can be a long one. However, there are travellers with different interests. Jorvik actually works out pretty well for travellers with children, for instance, but for (young) adults travelling on their own it's pretty overpriced, and not so interesting so that's what the guide should say. Well I went as a child; and would recommend families not to bother (overpriced, not all that interesting). Which possibly hihglights the point? I don't think that's NPOV though, because the Jorvik probably think they're pretty awesome for everybody. Well, yes, but that's not NPOV because the Jorvik centre's view is demonstrably biased :) (i.e. not a travellers perspective). So in summary I don't see that there is any real difference in our stance on this - it might just need a bit of rethinking. We'd like to express it as Traveller's Point of View. I think this is a good name for it. p.s. I read your fair link with interest - I think that is a good way to resolve the issue with clashing of personal experience. However one thing a bigger community brings is a difficulty in resolving these problems (or, they crop up more often). On Wikipedia we can use sources so that uninvolved people can voice an opinion and help resolve the situation - but where this relies on personal experience that is simply not possible. Do you have an approach to help scale this form of dispute resolution? Other questions I had: - What sort of size is the WT community at the moment? - What are the policies/approach to copyright violations and other issues such as slander, etc? - What is the policy r.e. advertising and promotional (quite often, when I use WT, I see a lot of content that seems quite promotional in quality - e.g. for a particular restaurant). Cheers, Tom ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Travel Guide Wiki
Just to highlight my earlier point about sourcing, the article on Florence currently says: Opera was invented in Florence. This happens to be true - but I have no proof of it, and it may well simply be the opinion of the original writer. Much of the rest of the historical section is the same; it is encyclopaedic detail about the city, spiced up for travel guide purposes. I have no issue with the spicing up (it is appropriate in the context), but I think this is the sort of content that can/should be sourced to help the reader be assured the material is true in at least some way (even if there is subjective opinion mixed in). Tom ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Travel Guide Wiki
On Thu, Apr 12, 2012 at 2:53 AM, Mark Jaroski mark.jaro...@gmail.com wrote: We're under the impression that there are other Wikimedia foundation projects which don't use NPOV, and so those of us favouring approaching WMF have been able to argue that we wouldn't be forced to use it. If that's wrong then we should probably just give up this line of exploration and go find another solution. My impression of sister projects is the same. Not all of the same rules that apply to Wikipedia also apply to sister projects. With the exception of very few mandatory things (like respect for information about living persons), individual projects can determine their own rules and policies as much as they want. -- Casey Brown Cbrown1023 ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l