Re: [Wikimedia-l] Concerns in general

2017-01-29 Thread phoebe ayers
On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Romaine Wiki  wrote:
> Today I was reading in the (international) news about websites with
> knowledge on the topic of climate change disappear from the internet as
> result of the Trump administration.
...
> Luckily there are many scientists working on getting all the data abroad,
> out of the US to ensure the research data is saved, including on servers in
> the Netherlands where Trump (hopefully) has no reach.

Yes: there are several projects in the scientific community and
universities in the US as well right now (I'm involved in some library
efforts) to back up US government datasets, especially complex or
dynamic datasets that are not easily scraped. It's unfortunate that
this is ad-hoc emergency work. There is a lot of important data that
is at risk of being taken offline (or simply not maintained), or has
already been taken down; this is fragmented across US government
agencies and pages and represents a great deal of the world's climate,
oceanic, and other scientific data.

> In the past week I was reading about the Internet Archive organisation, who
> is making a back up in Canada because of the Trump administration. I did
> not understood this, you may call me naive, but now I do understand,
> apparently they have some visionary people at the Internet Archive.

Yes, I agree with your point about backups, but also: Internet
Archive's work is crucial to our work in lots of ways, and one thing
we can do is support and partner with them even more. (IA just gave a
nice presentation about some of our collaborations and future work at
the WikiConference North America:
https://wikiconference.org/wiki/Submissions:2016/Internet_Archive_and_Wikipedia_collaboration:_Link_rot,_multimedia_and_more)


> Trump is now promoting harassment and disrespect, already for some time,
>
> What signal is given to the rest of the world if an America based
> organisation is spreading the thought of a harassment free Wikipedia and
> the free word, while the president of the US is promoting harassment,
> disrespect and censorship on a massive scale.

As an American, I agree. I hope that being US-based does not mean
people think that all US people or organizations agree with the
current government. As an organization with strong and long-held
values, I think Wikimedia must state our disagreement with policies of
censorship and xenophobia (from the US administration, or from any
government), which so profoundly differ from our own values of
internationalism, cooperation, respect and accurate information.

A statement of clearly articulated organizational values is important
for every organization, and especially important for US-based
organizations now. This is distinct from (also) lobbying about the
copyright and internet law issues that affect our work.

Organizations similar to us are also reacting to this weekend's news
about immigration restrictions; for instance Mozilla just posted a
note: https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2017/01/28/us-immigration-ban/.

...
> To come to a conclusion, I think WMF and the Wikimedia movement should
> think about a back-up plan if it actually goes wrong.

The discussion of backing up data elsewhere is a good one. We should
think about other specifics as well. I don't know if we have
Wikimedians affected by the current US immigration rulings, but we
must think ahead even if we do not. The new privacy orders are
confusing and unclear, but certainly affect us. I'm sure there are
other dimensions: let's discuss it and figure out the steps we should
take as an organization to support our values and preemptively deal
with government threats. How should we organize?

Phoebe

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Concerns in general

2017-01-29 Thread Ilario Valdelli
As I know there should be a disaster recovery plan within US, but the 
question is to know if the risk assessment includes also the political 
issues and the option to move the data centers outside US in case of 
political risks.


It's not my competence, but in several points there is a description of 
a plan of disaster recovery.


The concerns in this case are more connected with the legal consequences 
connected with the placement of data centers in US.


At least for Switzerland, Commons is absolutely a *no competitive media 
repository* cause the application of very restrictive US law besides any 
change that can happen with an election and the consequent change of the 
the political scenario.


The real problem is to know how political aspects are considered in this 
risk assessment and what are the plans to mitigate or to resolve them 
because we know that we have to follow the US law, but this answer is 
becoming more and more unsatisfying.


Kind regards

On 27.01.2017 04:33, Romaine Wiki wrote:

This is just the first week of this president!

I am 100% sure everyone in the Wikimedia movement is willing to make sure
Wikimedia faces no damage whatsoever, including in WMF, but to me this
still starts to get concerning.

If we as Wikimedia movement think that free knowledge, free speech, freedom
of information, etc are important, I would think that the location where
the organisation is based is that country where liberty is the largest, I
do not know where this is but it is definitely not the US.

To my impression WMF is stuck in the US, so I do not believe they would
actually move when the danger grows.

But I think it is possible to make sure risks are spread over the world.
Certainly as we are an international movement that intends to cover the
knowledge of the whole humanoid civilisation.

To come to a conclusion, I think WMF and the Wikimedia movement should
think about a back-up plan if it actually goes wrong.


If you do not agree with me: that is perfectly fine, that's your right and
should be protected.

Thank you.

Romaine
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--
Ilario Valdelli
Wikimedia CH
Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre
Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera
Switzerland - 8008 Zürich
Tel: +41764821371
http://www.wikimedia.ch



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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Concerns in general

2017-01-28 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
Yes. You are right. But having a strategy starts with basics. Having full
backups and moving them of the premises. The next part, having a working
environment is a next step.

Did you consider what it means when a government takes hold of the domain?
How we are to change the registration so that it points to a different IP
address. The point is that when we need this we are in real hot water and
we have to prepare for this.

So let us have a backup and then take the next step; know where it is and
what scenarios there are we want to prepare for.
Thanks,
  GerardM

On 29 January 2017 at 02:51, Craig Franklin 
wrote:

> Hi Pine,
>
> Thanks for raising this task.  There is more to a disaster plan than just
> smuggling backups of the content itself out though.  The projects have
> grown to a size now where they cannot be run by some guy out of his garage
> using a backup; we need to think about how we can move or protect things
> like server operations, organisational support, and other "real world"
> activities in the event that it's no longer possible to continue with
> business as usual.
>
> As I said, I hope that there is a document somewhere internally within the
> Foundation where they have considered this scenario and how they'd react to
> it.  Now might be a good time for them to dust off that document and review
> it, just in case.
>
> Cheers,
> Craig Franklin
>
> On 28 January 2017 at 18:52, Pine W  wrote:
>
> > I have created a Phabricator task here:
> > https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T156544
> >
> > Pine
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Concerns in general

2017-01-28 Thread Craig Franklin
Hi Pine,

Thanks for raising this task.  There is more to a disaster plan than just
smuggling backups of the content itself out though.  The projects have
grown to a size now where they cannot be run by some guy out of his garage
using a backup; we need to think about how we can move or protect things
like server operations, organisational support, and other "real world"
activities in the event that it's no longer possible to continue with
business as usual.

As I said, I hope that there is a document somewhere internally within the
Foundation where they have considered this scenario and how they'd react to
it.  Now might be a good time for them to dust off that document and review
it, just in case.

Cheers,
Craig Franklin

On 28 January 2017 at 18:52, Pine W  wrote:

> I have created a Phabricator task here:
> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T156544
>
> Pine
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Concerns in general

2017-01-28 Thread Sam Klein
Thank you, Pine.

Yes, this is essential.  We've avoided the issue in the past, but it's time
to have a proper international backup now.

On Sat, Jan 28, 2017 at 3:52 AM, Pine W  wrote:

> I have created a Phabricator task here:
> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T156544
>
> Pine
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Concerns in general

2017-01-28 Thread Damon Sicore
As long as humanity maintains the concept of non-citizen, global suffering will 
prevail.  

I believe the only way to address backup and privacy concerns is to permanently 
dissolve all current systems relying on the infrastructure that corporations 
and governments can touch or see and move to something where absolutely no 
single entity would be able to control any other entity in any way whatsoever. 

However, this goes against some of our fundamental principles and values of 
Wikipedia because our communities embrace authoritarian and autocratic 
processes which enable censorship and persecution. We control what people say 
every time we edit the corpus. Another way to convey my point:  Eliminating 
being a corpus eliminates censorship.   

Also, as WMF has experienced, there is no way you can talk people out of 
powerful positions.  Asking people to stop their behavior, which is enabled by 
a power we give them,  will not produce the desired result. 

Damon

https://damon.sicore.com
Flicked by head hugging plastic rectangular zero and one signal emitter. 

> On Jan 27, 2017, at 4:39 PM, John  wrote:
> 
> United States
> governmental agencies sharing information about non-citizens with each
> other. In the context of the actual document it is referencing sharing data
> about non-citizens who are not legal residents of the United States, who
> are illegally in the country.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Concerns in general

2017-01-28 Thread Romaine Wiki
On every continent there are likely risks and we should be aware of them.

Copyrights issues are also something to look out for.

In the Netherlands the telecom enforcement agency is pretty strict and
active in enforcing net neutrality.

But yes, risks are spread over the world.

Where the servers are located I do not mind that much, but spread around
the world seems to be required to spread the risk.

Romaine


Op zaterdag 28 januari 2017 heeft Vi to  het
volgende geschreven:

> Actually some parties might bring EU to low standards of freedom of
> expression.
> For what concerns Wikimedia, I fear more lobbying about copyright related
> legislation or about net neutrality than USA turning into a dictatorship.
> I'm not afraid of a complete service disruption but instead of things
> getting more and more complicate in a globalized World being broken up. We
> rely upon a level of freedom to move people and data (mainly among the two
> shorelines of the Atlantic ocean) which has no precedents in human history.
> Offline backups -to renew on yearly basis- are not so expensive to be
> physically sent to chapters, or at least a certain number of chapters
> meeting some requirements (e.g. a physical location, some IT, etc.). It
> would instead be *hard* to rebuild an infrastructure almost from the
> scratch.
> What puzzles me is our ability to nullify impact of end of USA safe harbor
> or (possible) or, for example, Netherlands ceasing net neutrality
> (currently almost impossible) or similar kind of changes in any Country,
> which doesn't imply dictatorship but still will have a significantly impact
> over our operations.
>
> Vito
>
> 2017-01-28 13:07 GMT+01:00 Romaine Wiki  >:
>
> > Hi Nathan,
> >
> > You describe what I tried to say: threats to the environment in what
> > Wikimedia operates.
> >
> > In the Netherlands there has been a government based on populism (with
> > Geert Wilders) but the effects were very limited. The same in other EU
> > countries. Political parties and political leaders in Europe are aware of
> > the world wars that took place and are not out of the minds, so extremes
> > are much less extreme. Even in comparison with the US now less extreme.
> >
> > Like the archives of Alexandria got lost due being stored in one place,
> let
> > us not make that mistake again. Whatever the cause of troubles is,
> nature,
> > humans, fire, etc.
> >
> > To me the most safe option would be to have a back up at every continent,
> > thus the risks are spread.
> >
> > Romaine
> >
> > Op zaterdag 28 januari 2017 heeft Nathan  > het volgende
> > geschreven:
> >
> > > Romaine makes some good points. There is a legitimate concern that the
> > turn
> > > to populism and unpredictability threatens the environment in which
> > > Wikimedia operates, and its only reasonable to consider a move of core
> > > assets somewhere safer from the unspooling of Western social fabric.
> > > Perhaps the Netherlands is a good alternative, although Geert Wilders
> is
> > > quite popular there... The United Kingdom, perhaps? Yet with Brexit and
> > > UKIP, one wonders how safe Wikimedia would be there. Perhaps France, if
> > not
> > > for Marine Le Pen... This is more challenging than I expected. Where
> will
> > > we find some place that is protected from the pernicious threats that
> > beset
> > > the Wikimedia Foundation in the United States?
> > >
> > > On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 10:33 PM, Romaine Wiki  
> > > >
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Today I was reading in the (international) news about websites with
> > > > knowledge on the topic of climate change disappear from the internet
> as
> > > > result of the Trump administration. The second thing I read is that
> > > before
> > > > something can be published about this topic, the government needs to
> > > > approve this.
> > > >
> > > > Do you realise what the right word for this is? censorship.
> > > > Even if it is only partially.
> > > >
> > > > Luckily there are many scientists working on getting all the data
> > abroad,
> > > > out of the US to ensure the research data is saved, including on
> > servers
> > > in
> > > > the Netherlands where Trump (hopefully) has no reach.
> > > >
> > > > In the past week I was reading about the Internet Archive
> organisation,
> > > who
> > > > is making a back up in Canada because of the Trump administration. I
> > did
> > > > not understood this, you may call me naive, but now I do understand,
> > > > apparently they have some visionary people at the Internet Archive.
> > > >
> > > > I miss a good answer to this situation from the Wikimedia Foundation.
> > > >
> > > > Trump is now promoting harassment and disrespect, already for some
> > time,
> > > >
> > > > What signal is given to the rest of the world if an America based
> > > > organisation is spreading the thought of a harassment 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Concerns in general

2017-01-28 Thread Vi to
Actually some parties might bring EU to low standards of freedom of
expression.
For what concerns Wikimedia, I fear more lobbying about copyright related
legislation or about net neutrality than USA turning into a dictatorship.
I'm not afraid of a complete service disruption but instead of things
getting more and more complicate in a globalized World being broken up. We
rely upon a level of freedom to move people and data (mainly among the two
shorelines of the Atlantic ocean) which has no precedents in human history.
Offline backups -to renew on yearly basis- are not so expensive to be
physically sent to chapters, or at least a certain number of chapters
meeting some requirements (e.g. a physical location, some IT, etc.). It
would instead be *hard* to rebuild an infrastructure almost from the
scratch.
What puzzles me is our ability to nullify impact of end of USA safe harbor
or (possible) or, for example, Netherlands ceasing net neutrality
(currently almost impossible) or similar kind of changes in any Country,
which doesn't imply dictatorship but still will have a significantly impact
over our operations.

Vito

2017-01-28 13:07 GMT+01:00 Romaine Wiki :

> Hi Nathan,
>
> You describe what I tried to say: threats to the environment in what
> Wikimedia operates.
>
> In the Netherlands there has been a government based on populism (with
> Geert Wilders) but the effects were very limited. The same in other EU
> countries. Political parties and political leaders in Europe are aware of
> the world wars that took place and are not out of the minds, so extremes
> are much less extreme. Even in comparison with the US now less extreme.
>
> Like the archives of Alexandria got lost due being stored in one place, let
> us not make that mistake again. Whatever the cause of troubles is, nature,
> humans, fire, etc.
>
> To me the most safe option would be to have a back up at every continent,
> thus the risks are spread.
>
> Romaine
>
> Op zaterdag 28 januari 2017 heeft Nathan  het volgende
> geschreven:
>
> > Romaine makes some good points. There is a legitimate concern that the
> turn
> > to populism and unpredictability threatens the environment in which
> > Wikimedia operates, and its only reasonable to consider a move of core
> > assets somewhere safer from the unspooling of Western social fabric.
> > Perhaps the Netherlands is a good alternative, although Geert Wilders is
> > quite popular there... The United Kingdom, perhaps? Yet with Brexit and
> > UKIP, one wonders how safe Wikimedia would be there. Perhaps France, if
> not
> > for Marine Le Pen... This is more challenging than I expected. Where will
> > we find some place that is protected from the pernicious threats that
> beset
> > the Wikimedia Foundation in the United States?
> >
> > On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 10:33 PM, Romaine Wiki  > >
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Today I was reading in the (international) news about websites with
> > > knowledge on the topic of climate change disappear from the internet as
> > > result of the Trump administration. The second thing I read is that
> > before
> > > something can be published about this topic, the government needs to
> > > approve this.
> > >
> > > Do you realise what the right word for this is? censorship.
> > > Even if it is only partially.
> > >
> > > Luckily there are many scientists working on getting all the data
> abroad,
> > > out of the US to ensure the research data is saved, including on
> servers
> > in
> > > the Netherlands where Trump (hopefully) has no reach.
> > >
> > > In the past week I was reading about the Internet Archive organisation,
> > who
> > > is making a back up in Canada because of the Trump administration. I
> did
> > > not understood this, you may call me naive, but now I do understand,
> > > apparently they have some visionary people at the Internet Archive.
> > >
> > > I miss a good answer to this situation from the Wikimedia Foundation.
> > >
> > > Trump is now promoting harassment and disrespect, already for some
> time,
> > >
> > > What signal is given to the rest of the world if an America based
> > > organisation is spreading the thought of a harassment free Wikipedia
> and
> > > the free word, while the president of the US is promoting harassment,
> > > disrespect and censorship on a massive scale.
> > >
> > > This is just the first week of this president!
> > >
> > > I am 100% sure everyone in the Wikimedia movement is willing to make
> sure
> > > Wikimedia faces no damage whatsoever, including in WMF, but to me this
> > > still starts to get concerning.
> > >
> > > If we as Wikimedia movement think that free knowledge, free speech,
> > freedom
> > > of information, etc are important, I would think that the location
> where
> > > the organisation is based is that country where liberty is the
> largest, I
> > > do not know where this is but it is definitely not the US.
> > >
> > > To my impression 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Concerns in general

2017-01-28 Thread Romaine Wiki
Hi Nathan,

You describe what I tried to say: threats to the environment in what
Wikimedia operates.

In the Netherlands there has been a government based on populism (with
Geert Wilders) but the effects were very limited. The same in other EU
countries. Political parties and political leaders in Europe are aware of
the world wars that took place and are not out of the minds, so extremes
are much less extreme. Even in comparison with the US now less extreme.

Like the archives of Alexandria got lost due being stored in one place, let
us not make that mistake again. Whatever the cause of troubles is, nature,
humans, fire, etc.

To me the most safe option would be to have a back up at every continent,
thus the risks are spread.

Romaine

Op zaterdag 28 januari 2017 heeft Nathan  het volgende
geschreven:

> Romaine makes some good points. There is a legitimate concern that the turn
> to populism and unpredictability threatens the environment in which
> Wikimedia operates, and its only reasonable to consider a move of core
> assets somewhere safer from the unspooling of Western social fabric.
> Perhaps the Netherlands is a good alternative, although Geert Wilders is
> quite popular there... The United Kingdom, perhaps? Yet with Brexit and
> UKIP, one wonders how safe Wikimedia would be there. Perhaps France, if not
> for Marine Le Pen... This is more challenging than I expected. Where will
> we find some place that is protected from the pernicious threats that beset
> the Wikimedia Foundation in the United States?
>
> On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 10:33 PM, Romaine Wiki  >
> wrote:
>
> > Today I was reading in the (international) news about websites with
> > knowledge on the topic of climate change disappear from the internet as
> > result of the Trump administration. The second thing I read is that
> before
> > something can be published about this topic, the government needs to
> > approve this.
> >
> > Do you realise what the right word for this is? censorship.
> > Even if it is only partially.
> >
> > Luckily there are many scientists working on getting all the data abroad,
> > out of the US to ensure the research data is saved, including on servers
> in
> > the Netherlands where Trump (hopefully) has no reach.
> >
> > In the past week I was reading about the Internet Archive organisation,
> who
> > is making a back up in Canada because of the Trump administration. I did
> > not understood this, you may call me naive, but now I do understand,
> > apparently they have some visionary people at the Internet Archive.
> >
> > I miss a good answer to this situation from the Wikimedia Foundation.
> >
> > Trump is now promoting harassment and disrespect, already for some time,
> >
> > What signal is given to the rest of the world if an America based
> > organisation is spreading the thought of a harassment free Wikipedia and
> > the free word, while the president of the US is promoting harassment,
> > disrespect and censorship on a massive scale.
> >
> > This is just the first week of this president!
> >
> > I am 100% sure everyone in the Wikimedia movement is willing to make sure
> > Wikimedia faces no damage whatsoever, including in WMF, but to me this
> > still starts to get concerning.
> >
> > If we as Wikimedia movement think that free knowledge, free speech,
> freedom
> > of information, etc are important, I would think that the location where
> > the organisation is based is that country where liberty is the largest, I
> > do not know where this is but it is definitely not the US.
> >
> > To my impression WMF is stuck in the US, so I do not believe they would
> > actually move when the danger grows.
> >
> > But I think it is possible to make sure risks are spread over the world.
> > Certainly as we are an international movement that intends to cover the
> > knowledge of the whole humanoid civilisation.
> >
> > To come to a conclusion, I think WMF and the Wikimedia movement should
> > think about a back-up plan if it actually goes wrong.
> >
> >
> > If you do not agree with me: that is perfectly fine, that's your right
> and
> > should be protected.
> >
> > Thank you.
> >
> > Romaine
> > ___
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> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Concerns in general

2017-01-28 Thread Romaine Wiki
Hi!

Sorry, I had not the intention to write a Wikipedia article that is
balanced.

The only thing I tried to describe is some signals in the media that give
me concerns.

But I am sorry to say, but your reaction is something what I would call
naieve, and biased as well. You are free to think that way, as I think now
otherwise.

At this point in time I do not think full censorship will be implemented in
the US, but I found partially censorship (government) already very
concerning. And it is not just the government but a large number of
institutions that should deliver facts, but are no longer allowed to freely
publish facts. This also includes universities.

Yes, a government is free to determine what policy it chooses, but that
gives no reason to delete everything (read: all data) they do not like.
There is a big difference between chosing something different and ordering
to censor.

Also this will in the end lead to a situation that this will affect
everyone via an indirect route.

Freedom of press already is troubled by attacking media.

I do not say it will happen, but I say we should consider what options we
have if it would go wrong in any form we currently do not expect.

Romaine

Op vrijdag 27 januari 2017 heeft John  het
volgende geschreven:

> I must say the tone of the initial post to this is alarmingly biased and
> almost misleading. Yes the incoming president has placed a hold on
> releasing additional material. By no means does that imply that they will
> start censoring data that they release or in any way affect the private
> sector. Because the incoming president holds a opposite view as the
> predecessor it's not surprising that they would want to audit the releases
> to ensure that the data has a solid factual grounding. I've lost count of
> the number of research studies and papers that I have seen that when
> actually placed under a microscope don't hold up. However often the
> mainstream media takes these and runs with them.
>
> The United States is based on freedom of the press, not freedom of the
> government. there is zero chance that the president will be able to censor
> the private sector.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Concerns in general

2017-01-28 Thread Gnangarra
In this case I think its more than the projects that need to be protected,
there are a lot of resources based in the US that may need to be
distributed on a wider base including personal/private data already
collected by the WMF. There are already practical challenges ahead with US
visa changes including to the interview exemptions for 38 countries. WMF
may need to establish an office in a more accessible country and allow for
greater costs in travel.

On 28 January 2017 at 17:03, Thyge  wrote:

> It's not so challenging, Nathan -we just need to make a copy of a full
> backup for each language version, we have and store it in the
> country/countries where the language is spoken. This avoids any bias in the
> selection.
>
> Regards,
> Sir48-Thyge
>
> 2017-01-28 2:12 GMT+01:00 Nathan :
>
> > Romaine makes some good points. There is a legitimate concern that the
> turn
> > to populism and unpredictability threatens the environment in which
> > Wikimedia operates, and its only reasonable to consider a move of core
> > assets somewhere safer from the unspooling of Western social fabric.
> > Perhaps the Netherlands is a good alternative, although Geert Wilders is
> > quite popular there... The United Kingdom, perhaps? Yet with Brexit and
> > UKIP, one wonders how safe Wikimedia would be there. Perhaps France, if
> not
> > for Marine Le Pen... This is more challenging than I expected. Where will
> > we find some place that is protected from the pernicious threats that
> beset
> > the Wikimedia Foundation in the United States?
> >
> > On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 10:33 PM, Romaine Wiki 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Today I was reading in the (international) news about websites with
> > > knowledge on the topic of climate change disappear from the internet as
> > > result of the Trump administration. The second thing I read is that
> > before
> > > something can be published about this topic, the government needs to
> > > approve this.
> > >
> > > Do you realise what the right word for this is? censorship.
> > > Even if it is only partially.
> > >
> > > Luckily there are many scientists working on getting all the data
> abroad,
> > > out of the US to ensure the research data is saved, including on
> servers
> > in
> > > the Netherlands where Trump (hopefully) has no reach.
> > >
> > > In the past week I was reading about the Internet Archive organisation,
> > who
> > > is making a back up in Canada because of the Trump administration. I
> did
> > > not understood this, you may call me naive, but now I do understand,
> > > apparently they have some visionary people at the Internet Archive.
> > >
> > > I miss a good answer to this situation from the Wikimedia Foundation.
> > >
> > > Trump is now promoting harassment and disrespect, already for some
> time,
> > >
> > > What signal is given to the rest of the world if an America based
> > > organisation is spreading the thought of a harassment free Wikipedia
> and
> > > the free word, while the president of the US is promoting harassment,
> > > disrespect and censorship on a massive scale.
> > >
> > > This is just the first week of this president!
> > >
> > > I am 100% sure everyone in the Wikimedia movement is willing to make
> sure
> > > Wikimedia faces no damage whatsoever, including in WMF, but to me this
> > > still starts to get concerning.
> > >
> > > If we as Wikimedia movement think that free knowledge, free speech,
> > freedom
> > > of information, etc are important, I would think that the location
> where
> > > the organisation is based is that country where liberty is the
> largest, I
> > > do not know where this is but it is definitely not the US.
> > >
> > > To my impression WMF is stuck in the US, so I do not believe they would
> > > actually move when the danger grows.
> > >
> > > But I think it is possible to make sure risks are spread over the
> world.
> > > Certainly as we are an international movement that intends to cover the
> > > knowledge of the whole humanoid civilisation.
> > >
> > > To come to a conclusion, I think WMF and the Wikimedia movement should
> > > think about a back-up plan if it actually goes wrong.
> > >
> > >
> > > If you do not agree with me: that is perfectly fine, that's your right
> > and
> > > should be protected.
> > >
> > > Thank you.
> > >
> > > Romaine
> > > ___
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> > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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> > > 
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> > Unsubscribe: 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Concerns in general

2017-01-28 Thread Thyge
It's not so challenging, Nathan -we just need to make a copy of a full
backup for each language version, we have and store it in the
country/countries where the language is spoken. This avoids any bias in the
selection.

Regards,
Sir48-Thyge

2017-01-28 2:12 GMT+01:00 Nathan :

> Romaine makes some good points. There is a legitimate concern that the turn
> to populism and unpredictability threatens the environment in which
> Wikimedia operates, and its only reasonable to consider a move of core
> assets somewhere safer from the unspooling of Western social fabric.
> Perhaps the Netherlands is a good alternative, although Geert Wilders is
> quite popular there... The United Kingdom, perhaps? Yet with Brexit and
> UKIP, one wonders how safe Wikimedia would be there. Perhaps France, if not
> for Marine Le Pen... This is more challenging than I expected. Where will
> we find some place that is protected from the pernicious threats that beset
> the Wikimedia Foundation in the United States?
>
> On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 10:33 PM, Romaine Wiki 
> wrote:
>
> > Today I was reading in the (international) news about websites with
> > knowledge on the topic of climate change disappear from the internet as
> > result of the Trump administration. The second thing I read is that
> before
> > something can be published about this topic, the government needs to
> > approve this.
> >
> > Do you realise what the right word for this is? censorship.
> > Even if it is only partially.
> >
> > Luckily there are many scientists working on getting all the data abroad,
> > out of the US to ensure the research data is saved, including on servers
> in
> > the Netherlands where Trump (hopefully) has no reach.
> >
> > In the past week I was reading about the Internet Archive organisation,
> who
> > is making a back up in Canada because of the Trump administration. I did
> > not understood this, you may call me naive, but now I do understand,
> > apparently they have some visionary people at the Internet Archive.
> >
> > I miss a good answer to this situation from the Wikimedia Foundation.
> >
> > Trump is now promoting harassment and disrespect, already for some time,
> >
> > What signal is given to the rest of the world if an America based
> > organisation is spreading the thought of a harassment free Wikipedia and
> > the free word, while the president of the US is promoting harassment,
> > disrespect and censorship on a massive scale.
> >
> > This is just the first week of this president!
> >
> > I am 100% sure everyone in the Wikimedia movement is willing to make sure
> > Wikimedia faces no damage whatsoever, including in WMF, but to me this
> > still starts to get concerning.
> >
> > If we as Wikimedia movement think that free knowledge, free speech,
> freedom
> > of information, etc are important, I would think that the location where
> > the organisation is based is that country where liberty is the largest, I
> > do not know where this is but it is definitely not the US.
> >
> > To my impression WMF is stuck in the US, so I do not believe they would
> > actually move when the danger grows.
> >
> > But I think it is possible to make sure risks are spread over the world.
> > Certainly as we are an international movement that intends to cover the
> > knowledge of the whole humanoid civilisation.
> >
> > To come to a conclusion, I think WMF and the Wikimedia movement should
> > think about a back-up plan if it actually goes wrong.
> >
> >
> > If you do not agree with me: that is perfectly fine, that's your right
> and
> > should be protected.
> >
> > Thank you.
> >
> > Romaine
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Concerns in general

2017-01-28 Thread Pine W
I have created a Phabricator task here:
https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T156544

Pine
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Concerns in general

2017-01-28 Thread Gnangarra
>
> Nathan said "*its only reasonable to consider a move of core **assets
> somewhere safer from the unspooling of Western social fabric*
> ​..
> *This is more challenging than I expected. Where will​ ​*
> *we find some place that is protected from the pernicious threats that
> beset​ ​**the Wikimedia Foundation in the United States*​"​


New Zealand would be a possibility it's showing to be a lot more
politically stable, and its neighbor Australia though it does have a
greater trust at a political level of the US Government along with a minor
notable "Republican trump like" political party but nowhere near the
extremism or any significant depth of support.

On 28 January 2017 at 09:12, Nathan  wrote:

> Romaine makes some good points. There is a legitimate concern that the turn
> to populism and unpredictability threatens the environment in which
> Wikimedia operates, and its only reasonable to consider a move of core
> assets somewhere safer from the unspooling of Western social fabric.
> Perhaps the Netherlands is a good alternative, although Geert Wilders is
> quite popular there... The United Kingdom, perhaps? Yet with Brexit and
> UKIP, one wonders how safe Wikimedia would be there. Perhaps France, if not
> for Marine Le Pen... This is more challenging than I expected. Where will
> we find some place that is protected from the pernicious threats that beset
> the Wikimedia Foundation in the United States?
>
> On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 10:33 PM, Romaine Wiki 
> wrote:
>
> > Today I was reading in the (international) news about websites with
> > knowledge on the topic of climate change disappear from the internet as
> > result of the Trump administration. The second thing I read is that
> before
> > something can be published about this topic, the government needs to
> > approve this.
> >
> > Do you realise what the right word for this is? censorship.
> > Even if it is only partially.
> >
> > Luckily there are many scientists working on getting all the data abroad,
> > out of the US to ensure the research data is saved, including on servers
> in
> > the Netherlands where Trump (hopefully) has no reach.
> >
> > In the past week I was reading about the Internet Archive organisation,
> who
> > is making a back up in Canada because of the Trump administration. I did
> > not understood this, you may call me naive, but now I do understand,
> > apparently they have some visionary people at the Internet Archive.
> >
> > I miss a good answer to this situation from the Wikimedia Foundation.
> >
> > Trump is now promoting harassment and disrespect, already for some time,
> >
> > What signal is given to the rest of the world if an America based
> > organisation is spreading the thought of a harassment free Wikipedia and
> > the free word, while the president of the US is promoting harassment,
> > disrespect and censorship on a massive scale.
> >
> > This is just the first week of this president!
> >
> > I am 100% sure everyone in the Wikimedia movement is willing to make sure
> > Wikimedia faces no damage whatsoever, including in WMF, but to me this
> > still starts to get concerning.
> >
> > If we as Wikimedia movement think that free knowledge, free speech,
> freedom
> > of information, etc are important, I would think that the location where
> > the organisation is based is that country where liberty is the largest, I
> > do not know where this is but it is definitely not the US.
> >
> > To my impression WMF is stuck in the US, so I do not believe they would
> > actually move when the danger grows.
> >
> > But I think it is possible to make sure risks are spread over the world.
> > Certainly as we are an international movement that intends to cover the
> > knowledge of the whole humanoid civilisation.
> >
> > To come to a conclusion, I think WMF and the Wikimedia movement should
> > think about a back-up plan if it actually goes wrong.
> >
> >
> > If you do not agree with me: that is perfectly fine, that's your right
> and
> > should be protected.
> >
> > Thank you.
> >
> > Romaine
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
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-- 
GN.
President Wikimedia Australia
WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Concerns in general

2017-01-27 Thread Nathan
Romaine makes some good points. There is a legitimate concern that the turn
to populism and unpredictability threatens the environment in which
Wikimedia operates, and its only reasonable to consider a move of core
assets somewhere safer from the unspooling of Western social fabric.
Perhaps the Netherlands is a good alternative, although Geert Wilders is
quite popular there... The United Kingdom, perhaps? Yet with Brexit and
UKIP, one wonders how safe Wikimedia would be there. Perhaps France, if not
for Marine Le Pen... This is more challenging than I expected. Where will
we find some place that is protected from the pernicious threats that beset
the Wikimedia Foundation in the United States?

On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 10:33 PM, Romaine Wiki 
wrote:

> Today I was reading in the (international) news about websites with
> knowledge on the topic of climate change disappear from the internet as
> result of the Trump administration. The second thing I read is that before
> something can be published about this topic, the government needs to
> approve this.
>
> Do you realise what the right word for this is? censorship.
> Even if it is only partially.
>
> Luckily there are many scientists working on getting all the data abroad,
> out of the US to ensure the research data is saved, including on servers in
> the Netherlands where Trump (hopefully) has no reach.
>
> In the past week I was reading about the Internet Archive organisation, who
> is making a back up in Canada because of the Trump administration. I did
> not understood this, you may call me naive, but now I do understand,
> apparently they have some visionary people at the Internet Archive.
>
> I miss a good answer to this situation from the Wikimedia Foundation.
>
> Trump is now promoting harassment and disrespect, already for some time,
>
> What signal is given to the rest of the world if an America based
> organisation is spreading the thought of a harassment free Wikipedia and
> the free word, while the president of the US is promoting harassment,
> disrespect and censorship on a massive scale.
>
> This is just the first week of this president!
>
> I am 100% sure everyone in the Wikimedia movement is willing to make sure
> Wikimedia faces no damage whatsoever, including in WMF, but to me this
> still starts to get concerning.
>
> If we as Wikimedia movement think that free knowledge, free speech, freedom
> of information, etc are important, I would think that the location where
> the organisation is based is that country where liberty is the largest, I
> do not know where this is but it is definitely not the US.
>
> To my impression WMF is stuck in the US, so I do not believe they would
> actually move when the danger grows.
>
> But I think it is possible to make sure risks are spread over the world.
> Certainly as we are an international movement that intends to cover the
> knowledge of the whole humanoid civilisation.
>
> To come to a conclusion, I think WMF and the Wikimedia movement should
> think about a back-up plan if it actually goes wrong.
>
>
> If you do not agree with me: that is perfectly fine, that's your right and
> should be protected.
>
> Thank you.
>
> Romaine
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Concerns in general

2017-01-27 Thread John Erling Blad
I for one would really, really, really like to see full backup of all data
to servers outside USA, if necessary with anonymized contributors. A first
step would be to store digests for the revisions on alternate servers, and
make it possible to double check the validity of the content. That is, a
canary for the content.

No I don't think WMF would tamper with the content, but it might not be up
to them to stop it from happening.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Concerns in general

2017-01-27 Thread John
The question is: Is it a legitimate issue or a sensationalized mole hill?
Given what I researched I am seeing more of a mole hill. Give it a few
days, odds are there will be clarification and this issue will blow over.

On Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 7:42 PM, Nathan  wrote:

> On Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 7:39 PM, John  wrote:
>
> > Im not sure you are reading section 14 correctly. It makes reference to
> > Privacy Act (Privacy Act of 1974) and the privacy policy of the federal
> > agencies involved in immigration enforcement and law enforcement
> agencies.
> > IE the government can freely share information between agencies with
> > regards to non-citizens. If you look at the Privacy Act, it lists twelve
> > cases where data is permitted to be disclosed by federal agencies, with
> the
> > new order it allows all governmental data to be shared between
> governmental
> > agencies. Again none of this pertains to the Civilian sector. The Privacy
> > Shield really has nothing to do with the root issue. United States
> > governmental agencies sharing information about non-citizens with each
> > other. In the context of the actual document it is referencing sharing
> data
> > about non-citizens who are not legal residents of the United States, who
> > are illegally in the country.
>
>
> There are plenty of news reports, available with a moment on Google, that
> discuss the possibility that this executive order prevents the Commerce
> department from fulfilling its enforcement role in the law that replaced
> the Safe Harbor data protection agreement between the EU and the U.S. This
> would invalidate the new agreement, jeopardizing the authorization of US
> companies to handle data on European residents.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Concerns in general

2017-01-27 Thread Nathan
On Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 7:39 PM, John  wrote:

> Im not sure you are reading section 14 correctly. It makes reference to
> Privacy Act (Privacy Act of 1974) and the privacy policy of the federal
> agencies involved in immigration enforcement and law enforcement agencies.
> IE the government can freely share information between agencies with
> regards to non-citizens. If you look at the Privacy Act, it lists twelve
> cases where data is permitted to be disclosed by federal agencies, with the
> new order it allows all governmental data to be shared between governmental
> agencies. Again none of this pertains to the Civilian sector. The Privacy
> Shield really has nothing to do with the root issue. United States
> governmental agencies sharing information about non-citizens with each
> other. In the context of the actual document it is referencing sharing data
> about non-citizens who are not legal residents of the United States, who
> are illegally in the country.


There are plenty of news reports, available with a moment on Google, that
discuss the possibility that this executive order prevents the Commerce
department from fulfilling its enforcement role in the law that replaced
the Safe Harbor data protection agreement between the EU and the U.S. This
would invalidate the new agreement, jeopardizing the authorization of US
companies to handle data on European residents.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Concerns in general

2017-01-27 Thread John
Im not sure you are reading section 14 correctly. It makes reference to
Privacy Act (Privacy Act of 1974) and the privacy policy of the federal
agencies involved in immigration enforcement and law enforcement agencies.
IE the government can freely share information between agencies with
regards to non-citizens. If you look at the Privacy Act, it lists twelve
cases where data is permitted to be disclosed by federal agencies, with the
new order it allows all governmental data to be shared between governmental
agencies. Again none of this pertains to the Civilian sector. The Privacy
Shield really has nothing to do with the root issue. United States
governmental agencies sharing information about non-citizens with each
other. In the context of the actual document it is referencing sharing data
about non-citizens who are not legal residents of the United States, who
are illegally in the country.

On Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 6:13 PM, James Salsman  wrote:

> >... there is zero chance that the president will be able to censor
> > the private sector.
>
> If you mean the U.S. private sector, you're right. But otherwise, the
> U.S. President is allowed to take a whole lot of actions which can
> effectively censor non-citizens, and I've got some bad news pertaining
> to one in particular involving compliance with European privacy
> regulations which could potentially result in the deletion of records
> including accounts of European citizens from hosting providers such as
> Google, Apple, Facebook, Twitter, etc. Please see:
>
> https://www.engadget.com/2017/01/26/trump-signs-executive-
> order-stripping-non-citizens-of-privacy-ri/
>
> "Enforcing privacy policies that specifically 'exclude persons who are
> not United States citizens or lawful permanent residents,' while aimed
> at enhancing domestic immigration laws, effectively invalidates
> America's part of the Privacy Shield agreement, opens the current
> administration up to sanctions by the EU and could lead our allies
> across the Atlantic to suspend the agreement outright."
>
> If Google is forced to delete all the personally identifying
> information of European citizens because the President ordered U.S.
> federal agencies to stop enforcing privacy policies, that would
> effectively be an act of censorship on a scale without historical
> precedent, would it not?
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Concerns in general

2017-01-27 Thread James Salsman
>... there is zero chance that the president will be able to censor
> the private sector.

If you mean the U.S. private sector, you're right. But otherwise, the
U.S. President is allowed to take a whole lot of actions which can
effectively censor non-citizens, and I've got some bad news pertaining
to one in particular involving compliance with European privacy
regulations which could potentially result in the deletion of records
including accounts of European citizens from hosting providers such as
Google, Apple, Facebook, Twitter, etc. Please see:

https://www.engadget.com/2017/01/26/trump-signs-executive-order-stripping-non-citizens-of-privacy-ri/

"Enforcing privacy policies that specifically 'exclude persons who are
not United States citizens or lawful permanent residents,' while aimed
at enhancing domestic immigration laws, effectively invalidates
America's part of the Privacy Shield agreement, opens the current
administration up to sanctions by the EU and could lead our allies
across the Atlantic to suspend the agreement outright."

If Google is forced to delete all the personally identifying
information of European citizens because the President ordered U.S.
federal agencies to stop enforcing privacy policies, that would
effectively be an act of censorship on a scale without historical
precedent, would it not?

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Concerns in general

2017-01-27 Thread John
I must say the tone of the initial post to this is alarmingly biased and
almost misleading. Yes the incoming president has placed a hold on
releasing additional material. By no means does that imply that they will
start censoring data that they release or in any way affect the private
sector. Because the incoming president holds a opposite view as the
predecessor it's not surprising that they would want to audit the releases
to ensure that the data has a solid factual grounding. I've lost count of
the number of research studies and papers that I have seen that when
actually placed under a microscope don't hold up. However often the
mainstream media takes these and runs with them.

The United States is based on freedom of the press, not freedom of the
government. there is zero chance that the president will be able to censor
the private sector.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Concerns in general

2017-01-27 Thread David Gerard
On 27 January 2017 at 03:33, Romaine Wiki  wrote:

> But I think it is possible to make sure risks are spread over the world.
> Certainly as we are an international movement that intends to cover the
> knowledge of the whole humanoid civilisation.
> To come to a conclusion, I think WMF and the Wikimedia movement should
> think about a back-up plan if it actually goes wrong.



A working live backup copy of everything would be a good and important thing.

How easy is it to bring up, say, a fully working copy of en:wp,
starting from just backups? Has anyone in WMF tested this? A backup
not being a backup until it's been restored and verified.


- d.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Concerns in general

2017-01-27 Thread Addshore
On Fri, 27 Jan 2017 at 13:10 Amir Ladsgroup  wrote:

> Yes they are: https://dumps.wikimedia.org/mirrors.html and three out of
> four of them are outside U.S.
>

Well technically that isn't all of the data / a backup ;)


>
> Best
>
> On Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 3:26 PM Gerard Meijssen  >
> wrote:
>
> > Hoi,
> > No they are not backed up outside the USA. I am not so sure there are off
> > line backups/
> > Thanks,
> >   GerardM
> >
> > On 27 January 2017 at 10:10, Peter Southwood <
> peter.southw...@telkomsa.net
> > >
> > wrote:
> >
> > > I hope the servers are backed up outside the USA in at least two places
> > > and that the data is also backed up off-line somewhere to make it
> > > unhackable.
> > > Cheers,
> > > Peyer
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On
> > > Behalf Of Romaine Wiki
> > > Sent: Friday, 27 January 2017 5:34 AM
> > > To: Wikimedia
> > > Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Concerns in general
> > >
> > > Today I was reading in the (international) news about websites with
> > > knowledge on the topic of climate change disappear from the internet as
> > > result of the Trump administration. The second thing I read is that
> > before
> > > something can be published about this topic, the government needs to
> > > approve this.
> > >
> > > Do you realise what the right word for this is? censorship.
> > > Even if it is only partially.
> > >
> > > Luckily there are many scientists working on getting all the data
> abroad,
> > > out of the US to ensure the research data is saved, including on
> servers
> > in
> > > the Netherlands where Trump (hopefully) has no reach.
> > >
> > > In the past week I was reading about the Internet Archive organisation,
> > > who is making a back up in Canada because of the Trump administration.
> I
> > > did not understood this, you may call me naive, but now I do
> understand,
> > > apparently they have some visionary people at the Internet Archive.
> > >
> > > I miss a good answer to this situation from the Wikimedia Foundation.
> > >
> > > Trump is now promoting harassment and disrespect, already for some
> time,
> > >
> > > What signal is given to the rest of the world if an America based
> > > organisation is spreading the thought of a harassment free Wikipedia
> and
> > > the free word, while the president of the US is promoting harassment,
> > > disrespect and censorship on a massive scale.
> > >
> > > This is just the first week of this president!
> > >
> > > I am 100% sure everyone in the Wikimedia movement is willing to make
> sure
> > > Wikimedia faces no damage whatsoever, including in WMF, but to me this
> > > still starts to get concerning.
> > >
> > > If we as Wikimedia movement think that free knowledge, free speech,
> > > freedom of information, etc are important, I would think that the
> > location
> > > where the organisation is based is that country where liberty is the
> > > largest, I do not know where this is but it is definitely not the US.
> > >
> > > To my impression WMF is stuck in the US, so I do not believe they would
> > > actually move when the danger grows.
> > >
> > > But I think it is possible to make sure risks are spread over the
> world.
> > > Certainly as we are an international movement that intends to cover the
> > > knowledge of the whole humanoid civilisation.
> > >
> > > To come to a conclusion, I think WMF and the Wikimedia movement should
> > > think about a back-up plan if it actually goes wrong.
> > >
> > >
> > > If you do not agree with me: that is perfectly fine, that's your right
> > and
> > > should be protected.
> > >
> > > Thank you.
> > >
> > > Romaine
> > > ___
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > 
> > >
> > > -
> > > No virus found in this message.
> > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> > > Version: 2016.0.7998 / Virus Database: 4749/13841 - Release Date:
> > 01/26/17
> > >
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > 
> > >
> > ___
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> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Concerns in general

2017-01-27 Thread Joseph Seddon
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Database_download#Where_do_I_get_it.3F

Seddon

On Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 11:55 AM, Gerard Meijssen  wrote:

> Hoi,
> No they are not backed up outside the USA. I am not so sure there are off
> line backups/
> Thanks,
>   GerardM
>
> On 27 January 2017 at 10:10, Peter Southwood  >
> wrote:
>
> > I hope the servers are backed up outside the USA in at least two places
> > and that the data is also backed up off-line somewhere to make it
> > unhackable.
> > Cheers,
> > Peyer
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On
> > Behalf Of Romaine Wiki
> > Sent: Friday, 27 January 2017 5:34 AM
> > To: Wikimedia
> > Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Concerns in general
> >
> > Today I was reading in the (international) news about websites with
> > knowledge on the topic of climate change disappear from the internet as
> > result of the Trump administration. The second thing I read is that
> before
> > something can be published about this topic, the government needs to
> > approve this.
> >
> > Do you realise what the right word for this is? censorship.
> > Even if it is only partially.
> >
> > Luckily there are many scientists working on getting all the data abroad,
> > out of the US to ensure the research data is saved, including on servers
> in
> > the Netherlands where Trump (hopefully) has no reach.
> >
> > In the past week I was reading about the Internet Archive organisation,
> > who is making a back up in Canada because of the Trump administration. I
> > did not understood this, you may call me naive, but now I do understand,
> > apparently they have some visionary people at the Internet Archive.
> >
> > I miss a good answer to this situation from the Wikimedia Foundation.
> >
> > Trump is now promoting harassment and disrespect, already for some time,
> >
> > What signal is given to the rest of the world if an America based
> > organisation is spreading the thought of a harassment free Wikipedia and
> > the free word, while the president of the US is promoting harassment,
> > disrespect and censorship on a massive scale.
> >
> > This is just the first week of this president!
> >
> > I am 100% sure everyone in the Wikimedia movement is willing to make sure
> > Wikimedia faces no damage whatsoever, including in WMF, but to me this
> > still starts to get concerning.
> >
> > If we as Wikimedia movement think that free knowledge, free speech,
> > freedom of information, etc are important, I would think that the
> location
> > where the organisation is based is that country where liberty is the
> > largest, I do not know where this is but it is definitely not the US.
> >
> > To my impression WMF is stuck in the US, so I do not believe they would
> > actually move when the danger grows.
> >
> > But I think it is possible to make sure risks are spread over the world.
> > Certainly as we are an international movement that intends to cover the
> > knowledge of the whole humanoid civilisation.
> >
> > To come to a conclusion, I think WMF and the Wikimedia movement should
> > think about a back-up plan if it actually goes wrong.
> >
> >
> > If you do not agree with me: that is perfectly fine, that's your right
> and
> > should be protected.
> >
> > Thank you.
> >
> > Romaine
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
> >
> > -
> > No virus found in this message.
> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> > Version: 2016.0.7998 / Virus Database: 4749/13841 - Release Date:
> 01/26/17
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
> >
> ___
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> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Concerns in general

2017-01-27 Thread Ariel Glenn WMF
I would not consider the dumps to be backups.  They are for purposes of
mirroring, research, analysis, offline reading and bot processing among
other things, but as a backup of our data they fall short.  Not only are
they not up to the minute but they do not contain private data, as they are
intended for public use.

I should note here, though IANAL, that any restrictions that may be placed
on US government communications do not of course apply to the private
sector.
Having said that, I would like also to see offline backups happen, for
various reasons.

Ariel


On Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 2:10 PM, Amir Ladsgroup  wrote:

> Yes they are: https://dumps.wikimedia.org/mirrors.html and three out of
> four of them are outside U.S.
>
> Best
>
> On Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 3:26 PM Gerard Meijssen  >
> wrote:
>
> > Hoi,
> > No they are not backed up outside the USA. I am not so sure there are off
> > line backups/
> > Thanks,
> >   GerardM
> >
> > On 27 January 2017 at 10:10, Peter Southwood <
> peter.southw...@telkomsa.net
> > >
> > wrote:
> >
> > > I hope the servers are backed up outside the USA in at least two places
> > > and that the data is also backed up off-line somewhere to make it
> > > unhackable.
> > > Cheers,
> > > Peyer
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On
> > > Behalf Of Romaine Wiki
> > > Sent: Friday, 27 January 2017 5:34 AM
> > > To: Wikimedia
> > > Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Concerns in general
> > >
> > > Today I was reading in the (international) news about websites with
> > > knowledge on the topic of climate change disappear from the internet as
> > > result of the Trump administration. The second thing I read is that
> > before
> > > something can be published about this topic, the government needs to
> > > approve this.
> > >
> > > Do you realise what the right word for this is? censorship.
> > > Even if it is only partially.
> > >
> > > Luckily there are many scientists working on getting all the data
> abroad,
> > > out of the US to ensure the research data is saved, including on
> servers
> > in
> > > the Netherlands where Trump (hopefully) has no reach.
> > >
> > > In the past week I was reading about the Internet Archive organisation,
> > > who is making a back up in Canada because of the Trump administration.
> I
> > > did not understood this, you may call me naive, but now I do
> understand,
> > > apparently they have some visionary people at the Internet Archive.
> > >
> > > I miss a good answer to this situation from the Wikimedia Foundation.
> > >
> > > Trump is now promoting harassment and disrespect, already for some
> time,
> > >
> > > What signal is given to the rest of the world if an America based
> > > organisation is spreading the thought of a harassment free Wikipedia
> and
> > > the free word, while the president of the US is promoting harassment,
> > > disrespect and censorship on a massive scale.
> > >
> > > This is just the first week of this president!
> > >
> > > I am 100% sure everyone in the Wikimedia movement is willing to make
> sure
> > > Wikimedia faces no damage whatsoever, including in WMF, but to me this
> > > still starts to get concerning.
> > >
> > > If we as Wikimedia movement think that free knowledge, free speech,
> > > freedom of information, etc are important, I would think that the
> > location
> > > where the organisation is based is that country where liberty is the
> > > largest, I do not know where this is but it is definitely not the US.
> > >
> > > To my impression WMF is stuck in the US, so I do not believe they would
> > > actually move when the danger grows.
> > >
> > > But I think it is possible to make sure risks are spread over the
> world.
> > > Certainly as we are an international movement that intends to cover the
> > > knowledge of the whole humanoid civilisation.
> > >
> > > To come to a conclusion, I think WMF and the Wikimedia movement should
> > > think about a back-up plan if it actually goes wrong.
> > >
> > >
> > > If you do not agree with me: that is perfectly fine, that's your right
> > and
> > > should be protected.
> > >
> > > Thank you.
> > >
> > > Romaine
> > > ___
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > 
> > >
> > > -
> > > No virus found in this message.
> > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> > > Version: 2016.0.7998 / Virus Database: 4749/13841 - Release Date:
> > 01/26/17
> > >
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > New messages to: 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Concerns in general

2017-01-27 Thread Milos Rancic
On Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 1:10 PM, Amir Ladsgroup  wrote:
> Yes they are: https://dumps.wikimedia.org/mirrors.html and three out of
> four of them are outside U.S.

No images/files backup outside of US.

-- 
Milos

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Concerns in general

2017-01-27 Thread Amir Ladsgroup
Yes they are: https://dumps.wikimedia.org/mirrors.html and three out of
four of them are outside U.S.

Best

On Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 3:26 PM Gerard Meijssen 
wrote:

> Hoi,
> No they are not backed up outside the USA. I am not so sure there are off
> line backups/
> Thanks,
>   GerardM
>
> On 27 January 2017 at 10:10, Peter Southwood  >
> wrote:
>
> > I hope the servers are backed up outside the USA in at least two places
> > and that the data is also backed up off-line somewhere to make it
> > unhackable.
> > Cheers,
> > Peyer
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On
> > Behalf Of Romaine Wiki
> > Sent: Friday, 27 January 2017 5:34 AM
> > To: Wikimedia
> > Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Concerns in general
> >
> > Today I was reading in the (international) news about websites with
> > knowledge on the topic of climate change disappear from the internet as
> > result of the Trump administration. The second thing I read is that
> before
> > something can be published about this topic, the government needs to
> > approve this.
> >
> > Do you realise what the right word for this is? censorship.
> > Even if it is only partially.
> >
> > Luckily there are many scientists working on getting all the data abroad,
> > out of the US to ensure the research data is saved, including on servers
> in
> > the Netherlands where Trump (hopefully) has no reach.
> >
> > In the past week I was reading about the Internet Archive organisation,
> > who is making a back up in Canada because of the Trump administration. I
> > did not understood this, you may call me naive, but now I do understand,
> > apparently they have some visionary people at the Internet Archive.
> >
> > I miss a good answer to this situation from the Wikimedia Foundation.
> >
> > Trump is now promoting harassment and disrespect, already for some time,
> >
> > What signal is given to the rest of the world if an America based
> > organisation is spreading the thought of a harassment free Wikipedia and
> > the free word, while the president of the US is promoting harassment,
> > disrespect and censorship on a massive scale.
> >
> > This is just the first week of this president!
> >
> > I am 100% sure everyone in the Wikimedia movement is willing to make sure
> > Wikimedia faces no damage whatsoever, including in WMF, but to me this
> > still starts to get concerning.
> >
> > If we as Wikimedia movement think that free knowledge, free speech,
> > freedom of information, etc are important, I would think that the
> location
> > where the organisation is based is that country where liberty is the
> > largest, I do not know where this is but it is definitely not the US.
> >
> > To my impression WMF is stuck in the US, so I do not believe they would
> > actually move when the danger grows.
> >
> > But I think it is possible to make sure risks are spread over the world.
> > Certainly as we are an international movement that intends to cover the
> > knowledge of the whole humanoid civilisation.
> >
> > To come to a conclusion, I think WMF and the Wikimedia movement should
> > think about a back-up plan if it actually goes wrong.
> >
> >
> > If you do not agree with me: that is perfectly fine, that's your right
> and
> > should be protected.
> >
> > Thank you.
> >
> > Romaine
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
> >
> > -
> > No virus found in this message.
> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> > Version: 2016.0.7998 / Virus Database: 4749/13841 - Release Date:
> 01/26/17
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
> >
> ___
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> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Concerns in general

2017-01-27 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
No they are not backed up outside the USA. I am not so sure there are off
line backups/
Thanks,
  GerardM

On 27 January 2017 at 10:10, Peter Southwood 
wrote:

> I hope the servers are backed up outside the USA in at least two places
> and that the data is also backed up off-line somewhere to make it
> unhackable.
> Cheers,
> Peyer
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On
> Behalf Of Romaine Wiki
> Sent: Friday, 27 January 2017 5:34 AM
> To: Wikimedia
> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Concerns in general
>
> Today I was reading in the (international) news about websites with
> knowledge on the topic of climate change disappear from the internet as
> result of the Trump administration. The second thing I read is that before
> something can be published about this topic, the government needs to
> approve this.
>
> Do you realise what the right word for this is? censorship.
> Even if it is only partially.
>
> Luckily there are many scientists working on getting all the data abroad,
> out of the US to ensure the research data is saved, including on servers in
> the Netherlands where Trump (hopefully) has no reach.
>
> In the past week I was reading about the Internet Archive organisation,
> who is making a back up in Canada because of the Trump administration. I
> did not understood this, you may call me naive, but now I do understand,
> apparently they have some visionary people at the Internet Archive.
>
> I miss a good answer to this situation from the Wikimedia Foundation.
>
> Trump is now promoting harassment and disrespect, already for some time,
>
> What signal is given to the rest of the world if an America based
> organisation is spreading the thought of a harassment free Wikipedia and
> the free word, while the president of the US is promoting harassment,
> disrespect and censorship on a massive scale.
>
> This is just the first week of this president!
>
> I am 100% sure everyone in the Wikimedia movement is willing to make sure
> Wikimedia faces no damage whatsoever, including in WMF, but to me this
> still starts to get concerning.
>
> If we as Wikimedia movement think that free knowledge, free speech,
> freedom of information, etc are important, I would think that the location
> where the organisation is based is that country where liberty is the
> largest, I do not know where this is but it is definitely not the US.
>
> To my impression WMF is stuck in the US, so I do not believe they would
> actually move when the danger grows.
>
> But I think it is possible to make sure risks are spread over the world.
> Certainly as we are an international movement that intends to cover the
> knowledge of the whole humanoid civilisation.
>
> To come to a conclusion, I think WMF and the Wikimedia movement should
> think about a back-up plan if it actually goes wrong.
>
>
> If you do not agree with me: that is perfectly fine, that's your right and
> should be protected.
>
> Thank you.
>
> Romaine
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
>
> -
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2016.0.7998 / Virus Database: 4749/13841 - Release Date: 01/26/17
>
>
> ___
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> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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> 
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Concerns in general

2017-01-27 Thread Peter Southwood
I hope the servers are backed up outside the USA in at least two places and 
that the data is also backed up off-line somewhere to make it unhackable.
Cheers,
Peyer

-Original Message-
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of 
Romaine Wiki
Sent: Friday, 27 January 2017 5:34 AM
To: Wikimedia
Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Concerns in general

Today I was reading in the (international) news about websites with knowledge 
on the topic of climate change disappear from the internet as result of the 
Trump administration. The second thing I read is that before something can be 
published about this topic, the government needs to approve this.

Do you realise what the right word for this is? censorship.
Even if it is only partially.

Luckily there are many scientists working on getting all the data abroad, out 
of the US to ensure the research data is saved, including on servers in the 
Netherlands where Trump (hopefully) has no reach.

In the past week I was reading about the Internet Archive organisation, who is 
making a back up in Canada because of the Trump administration. I did not 
understood this, you may call me naive, but now I do understand, apparently 
they have some visionary people at the Internet Archive.

I miss a good answer to this situation from the Wikimedia Foundation.

Trump is now promoting harassment and disrespect, already for some time,

What signal is given to the rest of the world if an America based organisation 
is spreading the thought of a harassment free Wikipedia and the free word, 
while the president of the US is promoting harassment, disrespect and 
censorship on a massive scale.

This is just the first week of this president!

I am 100% sure everyone in the Wikimedia movement is willing to make sure 
Wikimedia faces no damage whatsoever, including in WMF, but to me this still 
starts to get concerning.

If we as Wikimedia movement think that free knowledge, free speech, freedom of 
information, etc are important, I would think that the location where the 
organisation is based is that country where liberty is the largest, I do not 
know where this is but it is definitely not the US.

To my impression WMF is stuck in the US, so I do not believe they would 
actually move when the danger grows.

But I think it is possible to make sure risks are spread over the world.
Certainly as we are an international movement that intends to cover the 
knowledge of the whole humanoid civilisation.

To come to a conclusion, I think WMF and the Wikimedia movement should think 
about a back-up plan if it actually goes wrong.


If you do not agree with me: that is perfectly fine, that's your right and 
should be protected.

Thank you.

Romaine
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