subject:"Re\\\: \\\[Wikimedia\\\-l\\\] Face recognition"

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Face recognition

2020-01-19 Thread John Erling Blad

Training sets already contain images from Commons, so yes, I believe
the implications should be considered.

On Sun, Jan 19, 2020 at 4:46 PM Newyorkbrad  wrote:
>
> This whole subject raises interesting and important legal and ethical
> issues, but are there any direct implications at this time for
> Wikipedia/Wikimedia projects?
>
> Newyorkbrad/IBM
>
>
>
> On Sunday, January 19, 2020, Ryan Merkley  wrote:
>
> > I don't believe it implies that. As with many things legal, the answer re:
> > derivatives is likely "it depends".
> >
> > R.
> >
> > On Sat, Jan 18, 2020, 10:30 PM Benjamin Ikuta 
> > wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Thanks for that.
> > >
> > > Pardon me if I've missed something, but that seems to imply, but not
> > > directly state, that AI training is a derivative work; could you clarify
> > > that?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Jan 18, 2020, at 2:58 PM, Ryan Merkley 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > [My comments are my own, and don’t reflect or suggest any official
> > > position from WMF]
> > > >
> > > > The NBC story linked below come out about a year ago. Around the same
> > > time, when I was CEO at Creative Commons, we published a statement and
> > > updated FAQs that attempted to respond to questions being asked about
> > > permitted uses and attribution related to the licenses.
> > > >
> > > > CC’s statement (March 2019) is here:
> > > https://creativecommons.org/2019/03/13/statement-on-
> > shared-images-in-facial-recognition-ai/
> > > <
> > > https://creativecommons.org/2019/03/13/statement-on-
> > shared-images-in-facial-recognition-ai/
> > > >
> > > > The FAQs are here:
> > > https://creativecommons.org/faq/#artificial-intelligence-and-cc-licenses
> > <
> > > https://creativecommons.org/faq/#artificial-intelligence-and-cc-licenses
> > >
> > > >
> > > > r.
> > > >
> > > > _
> > > >
> > > > Ryan Merkley (he/him)
> > > > Chief of Staff, Wikimedia Foundation  > >
> > > >
> > > > rmerk...@wikimedia.org 
> > > > @ryanmerkley 
> > > > +1 416 802 0662
> > > >
> > > >> On Jan 18, 2020, at 2:14 PM, John Erling Blad 
> > wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> There are several reports of face recognition going mainstream, often
> > > >> in less than optimum circumstances, and often violating copyright and
> > > >> licenses
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/18/technology/clearview-
> > privacy-facial-recognition.html
> > > >>
> > > https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/internet/facial-recognition-s-
> > dirty-little-secret-millions-online-photos-scraped-n981921
> > > >> https://www.ibm.com/blogs/research/2019/01/diversity-in-faces/
> > > >>
> > > >> In my opinion building a model for face recognition is a derived work,
> > > >> and as such must credit the photographers. That pose a real problem
> > > >> when the photographers counts in the millions and billions. Even a 1px
> > > >> fine print would be troublesome!
> > > >>
> > > >> What is the official stance on this? Is it a copyright infringement or
> > > >> not, does the license(s) cover the case or not?
> > > >>
> > > >> John Erling Blad
> > > >> /jeblad
> > > >>
> > > >> ___
> > > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > >> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> > ,
> > > 
> > > >
> > > > ___
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> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
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> > > 
> > >
> > > ___
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> > ___
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Face recognition

2020-01-19 Thread John Erling Blad

From my background in neural networks, and my understanding of how
they work, I would say that your trained network is a derived work if
the weights are learned from a specific training sample. If it does
not learn from a specific sample it is not a derived work from that
sample. It is not sufficient that a specific image is in a training
batch, it must also trigger learning.

The goal for the training is partial or full reconstruction of
properties necessary for some operation. It is perhaps easier to see
with an example: Imagine you have photos of Picasso's art, and you try
to estimate whether some art is within his Blue Period. Is the network
derived work from Picasso's art? And how does that compare to whether
the network itself is a work of art, is it still derived from another
(set of) work of art?

I would say training of neural networks is a derived work built on the
training samples, but I would not say itself is a derived work of art,
even if it can be copyrighted.

The most common solution these days seems to be to encode what is
called "eigenfaces", and then use those to create a kind of hashes for
similarity detection. Eigenfaces are a kind of arketypes of how a face
look like, and mixing such faces creates new ones. It is a bit similar
to those flipover albums the police uses, but allowing a lot more of
gradual changes. Face detection is often visualized as vector points
in movies, but this is not how eigenfaces work. Or rather, it creates
vectors, but not as dots on a portrait.

Note that ClearviewAI goes a good bit longer than just learn some
variant of eigenfaces.

On Sun, Jan 19, 2020 at 4:30 AM Benjamin Ikuta  wrote:
>
>
>
> Thanks for that.
>
> Pardon me if I've missed something, but that seems to imply, but not directly 
> state, that AI training is a derivative work; could you clarify that?
>
>
>
> On Jan 18, 2020, at 2:58 PM, Ryan Merkley  wrote:
>
> > [My comments are my own, and don’t reflect or suggest any official position 
> > from WMF]
> >
> > The NBC story linked below come out about a year ago. Around the same time, 
> > when I was CEO at Creative Commons, we published a statement and updated 
> > FAQs that attempted to respond to questions being asked about permitted 
> > uses and attribution related to the licenses.
> >
> > CC’s statement (March 2019) is here: 
> > https://creativecommons.org/2019/03/13/statement-on-shared-images-in-facial-recognition-ai/
> >  
> > 
> > The FAQs are here: 
> > https://creativecommons.org/faq/#artificial-intelligence-and-cc-licenses 
> > 
> >
> > r.
> >
> > _
> >
> > Ryan Merkley (he/him)
> > Chief of Staff, Wikimedia Foundation 
> >
> > rmerk...@wikimedia.org 
> > @ryanmerkley 
> > +1 416 802 0662
> >
> >> On Jan 18, 2020, at 2:14 PM, John Erling Blad  wrote:
> >>
> >> There are several reports of face recognition going mainstream, often
> >> in less than optimum circumstances, and often violating copyright and
> >> licenses
> >>
> >> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/18/technology/clearview-privacy-facial-recognition.html
> >> https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/internet/facial-recognition-s-dirty-little-secret-millions-online-photos-scraped-n981921
> >> https://www.ibm.com/blogs/research/2019/01/diversity-in-faces/
> >>
> >> In my opinion building a model for face recognition is a derived work,
> >> and as such must credit the photographers. That pose a real problem
> >> when the photographers counts in the millions and billions. Even a 1px
> >> fine print would be troublesome!
> >>
> >> What is the official stance on this? Is it a copyright infringement or
> >> not, does the license(s) cover the case or not?
> >>
> >> John Erling Blad
> >> /jeblad
> >>
> >> ___
> >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
> >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
> >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> >> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 
> >> 
> >
> > ___
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> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 
> > 
>
> ___
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>

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Face recognition

2020-01-19 Thread Newyorkbrad

This whole subject raises interesting and important legal and ethical
issues, but are there any direct implications at this time for
Wikipedia/Wikimedia projects?

Newyorkbrad/IBM



On Sunday, January 19, 2020, Ryan Merkley  wrote:

> I don't believe it implies that. As with many things legal, the answer re:
> derivatives is likely "it depends".
>
> R.
>
> On Sat, Jan 18, 2020, 10:30 PM Benjamin Ikuta 
> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Thanks for that.
> >
> > Pardon me if I've missed something, but that seems to imply, but not
> > directly state, that AI training is a derivative work; could you clarify
> > that?
> >
> >
> >
> > On Jan 18, 2020, at 2:58 PM, Ryan Merkley 
> wrote:
> >
> > > [My comments are my own, and don’t reflect or suggest any official
> > position from WMF]
> > >
> > > The NBC story linked below come out about a year ago. Around the same
> > time, when I was CEO at Creative Commons, we published a statement and
> > updated FAQs that attempted to respond to questions being asked about
> > permitted uses and attribution related to the licenses.
> > >
> > > CC’s statement (March 2019) is here:
> > https://creativecommons.org/2019/03/13/statement-on-
> shared-images-in-facial-recognition-ai/
> > <
> > https://creativecommons.org/2019/03/13/statement-on-
> shared-images-in-facial-recognition-ai/
> > >
> > > The FAQs are here:
> > https://creativecommons.org/faq/#artificial-intelligence-and-cc-licenses
> <
> > https://creativecommons.org/faq/#artificial-intelligence-and-cc-licenses
> >
> > >
> > > r.
> > >
> > > _
> > >
> > > Ryan Merkley (he/him)
> > > Chief of Staff, Wikimedia Foundation  >
> > >
> > > rmerk...@wikimedia.org 
> > > @ryanmerkley 
> > > +1 416 802 0662
> > >
> > >> On Jan 18, 2020, at 2:14 PM, John Erling Blad 
> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> There are several reports of face recognition going mainstream, often
> > >> in less than optimum circumstances, and often violating copyright and
> > >> licenses
> > >>
> > >>
> > https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/18/technology/clearview-
> privacy-facial-recognition.html
> > >>
> > https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/internet/facial-recognition-s-
> dirty-little-secret-millions-online-photos-scraped-n981921
> > >> https://www.ibm.com/blogs/research/2019/01/diversity-in-faces/
> > >>
> > >> In my opinion building a model for face recognition is a derived work,
> > >> and as such must credit the photographers. That pose a real problem
> > >> when the photographers counts in the millions and billions. Even a 1px
> > >> fine print would be troublesome!
> > >>
> > >> What is the official stance on this? Is it a copyright infringement or
> > >> not, does the license(s) cover the case or not?
> > >>
> > >> John Erling Blad
> > >> /jeblad
> > >>
> > >> ___
> > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > >> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> ,
> > 
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
> >
> > ___
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> > 
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Face recognition

2020-01-19 Thread Ryan Merkley

I don't believe it implies that. As with many things legal, the answer re:
derivatives is likely "it depends".

R.

On Sat, Jan 18, 2020, 10:30 PM Benjamin Ikuta 
wrote:

>
>
> Thanks for that.
>
> Pardon me if I've missed something, but that seems to imply, but not
> directly state, that AI training is a derivative work; could you clarify
> that?
>
>
>
> On Jan 18, 2020, at 2:58 PM, Ryan Merkley  wrote:
>
> > [My comments are my own, and don’t reflect or suggest any official
> position from WMF]
> >
> > The NBC story linked below come out about a year ago. Around the same
> time, when I was CEO at Creative Commons, we published a statement and
> updated FAQs that attempted to respond to questions being asked about
> permitted uses and attribution related to the licenses.
> >
> > CC’s statement (March 2019) is here:
> https://creativecommons.org/2019/03/13/statement-on-shared-images-in-facial-recognition-ai/
> <
> https://creativecommons.org/2019/03/13/statement-on-shared-images-in-facial-recognition-ai/
> >
> > The FAQs are here:
> https://creativecommons.org/faq/#artificial-intelligence-and-cc-licenses <
> https://creativecommons.org/faq/#artificial-intelligence-and-cc-licenses>
> >
> > r.
> >
> > _
> >
> > Ryan Merkley (he/him)
> > Chief of Staff, Wikimedia Foundation 
> >
> > rmerk...@wikimedia.org 
> > @ryanmerkley 
> > +1 416 802 0662
> >
> >> On Jan 18, 2020, at 2:14 PM, John Erling Blad  wrote:
> >>
> >> There are several reports of face recognition going mainstream, often
> >> in less than optimum circumstances, and often violating copyright and
> >> licenses
> >>
> >>
> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/18/technology/clearview-privacy-facial-recognition.html
> >>
> https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/internet/facial-recognition-s-dirty-little-secret-millions-online-photos-scraped-n981921
> >> https://www.ibm.com/blogs/research/2019/01/diversity-in-faces/
> >>
> >> In my opinion building a model for face recognition is a derived work,
> >> and as such must credit the photographers. That pose a real problem
> >> when the photographers counts in the millions and billions. Even a 1px
> >> fine print would be troublesome!
> >>
> >> What is the official stance on this? Is it a copyright infringement or
> >> not, does the license(s) cover the case or not?
> >>
> >> John Erling Blad
> >> /jeblad
> >>
> >> ___
> >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> >> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
> >
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Face recognition

2020-01-18 Thread Benjamin Ikuta



Thanks for that. 

Pardon me if I've missed something, but that seems to imply, but not directly 
state, that AI training is a derivative work; could you clarify that? 



On Jan 18, 2020, at 2:58 PM, Ryan Merkley  wrote:

> [My comments are my own, and don’t reflect or suggest any official position 
> from WMF]
> 
> The NBC story linked below come out about a year ago. Around the same time, 
> when I was CEO at Creative Commons, we published a statement and updated FAQs 
> that attempted to respond to questions being asked about permitted uses and 
> attribution related to the licenses.
> 
> CC’s statement (March 2019) is here: 
> https://creativecommons.org/2019/03/13/statement-on-shared-images-in-facial-recognition-ai/
>  
> 
> The FAQs are here: 
> https://creativecommons.org/faq/#artificial-intelligence-and-cc-licenses 
> 
> 
> r.
> 
> _
> 
> Ryan Merkley (he/him)
> Chief of Staff, Wikimedia Foundation 
> 
> rmerk...@wikimedia.org 
> @ryanmerkley 
> +1 416 802 0662
> 
>> On Jan 18, 2020, at 2:14 PM, John Erling Blad  wrote:
>> 
>> There are several reports of face recognition going mainstream, often
>> in less than optimum circumstances, and often violating copyright and
>> licenses
>> 
>> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/18/technology/clearview-privacy-facial-recognition.html
>> https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/internet/facial-recognition-s-dirty-little-secret-millions-online-photos-scraped-n981921
>> https://www.ibm.com/blogs/research/2019/01/diversity-in-faces/
>> 
>> In my opinion building a model for face recognition is a derived work,
>> and as such must credit the photographers. That pose a real problem
>> when the photographers counts in the millions and billions. Even a 1px
>> fine print would be troublesome!
>> 
>> What is the official stance on this? Is it a copyright infringement or
>> not, does the license(s) cover the case or not?
>> 
>> John Erling Blad
>> /jeblad
>> 
>> ___
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 
>> 
> 
> ___
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> 

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Face recognition

2020-01-18 Thread Gergő Tisza

On Sat, Jan 18, 2020 at 3:55 PM John Erling Blad  wrote:

> People on another forum says portraits are personal data and use of
> them is a breach of Art. 6 GDPR Lawfulness of processing. This creates
> a problem in most European countries. This is a breach of privacy
> laws, and not a copyright issue.[1]
>

Something that can be used to recognize you face is certainly personal
data, so under the GDPR its operator needs to have a lawful reason to store
or process it. That could be user consent, public interest (e.g. in the
case of the police using it), possibly even a legitimate business interest
- the GDPR is pretty vague on what counts as a lawful reason.


> Not sure how to interpret the local copyright law on this. It can be
> read both as it is legal (even to just repurpose all kind of images no
> matter license) and as it is illegal to do it (it would be similar to
> sampling of previously published music). Seems like you are allowed to
> train a model, but you can't publish it…
>

In the EU, the CDSM directive mandates a copyright exception for data
mining [1] (for scientific research always, otherwise in the absence of an
explicit prohibition from the copyright owner). It is still new and most
member states have not adopted it into their local law yet, so the exact
form that exception will take is still an open question.

[1] see Title II Article 3 and 4 in the EU's crappy un-section-linkable law
page:
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:32019L0790=EN
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Face recognition

2020-01-18 Thread John Erling Blad

People on another forum says portraits are personal data and use of
them is a breach of Art. 6 GDPR Lawfulness of processing. This creates
a problem in most European countries. This is a breach of privacy
laws, and not a copyright issue.[1]

Not sure how to interpret the local copyright law on this. It can be
read both as it is legal (even to just repurpose all kind of images no
matter license) and as it is illegal to do it (it would be similar to
sampling of previously published music). Seems like you are allowed to
train a model, but you can't publish it…

[1] https://gdpr-info.eu/art-6-gdpr/

On Sat, Jan 18, 2020 at 11:58 PM Ryan Merkley  wrote:
>
> [My comments are my own, and don’t reflect or suggest any official position 
> from WMF]
>
> The NBC story linked below come out about a year ago. Around the same time, 
> when I was CEO at Creative Commons, we published a statement and updated FAQs 
> that attempted to respond to questions being asked about permitted uses and 
> attribution related to the licenses.
>
> CC’s statement (March 2019) is here: 
> https://creativecommons.org/2019/03/13/statement-on-shared-images-in-facial-recognition-ai/
>  
> 
> The FAQs are here: 
> https://creativecommons.org/faq/#artificial-intelligence-and-cc-licenses 
> 
>
> r.
>
> _
>
> Ryan Merkley (he/him)
> Chief of Staff, Wikimedia Foundation 
>
> rmerk...@wikimedia.org 
> @ryanmerkley 
> +1 416 802 0662
>
> > On Jan 18, 2020, at 2:14 PM, John Erling Blad  wrote:
> >
> > There are several reports of face recognition going mainstream, often
> > in less than optimum circumstances, and often violating copyright and
> > licenses
> >
> > https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/18/technology/clearview-privacy-facial-recognition.html
> > https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/internet/facial-recognition-s-dirty-little-secret-millions-online-photos-scraped-n981921
> > https://www.ibm.com/blogs/research/2019/01/diversity-in-faces/
> >
> > In my opinion building a model for face recognition is a derived work,
> > and as such must credit the photographers. That pose a real problem
> > when the photographers counts in the millions and billions. Even a 1px
> > fine print would be troublesome!
> >
> > What is the official stance on this? Is it a copyright infringement or
> > not, does the license(s) cover the case or not?
> >
> > John Erling Blad
> > /jeblad
> >
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Face recognition

2020-01-18 Thread Ryan Merkley

[My comments are my own, and don’t reflect or suggest any official position 
from WMF]

The NBC story linked below come out about a year ago. Around the same time, 
when I was CEO at Creative Commons, we published a statement and updated FAQs 
that attempted to respond to questions being asked about permitted uses and 
attribution related to the licenses.

CC’s statement (March 2019) is here: 
https://creativecommons.org/2019/03/13/statement-on-shared-images-in-facial-recognition-ai/
 

The FAQs are here: 
https://creativecommons.org/faq/#artificial-intelligence-and-cc-licenses 


r.

_

Ryan Merkley (he/him)
Chief of Staff, Wikimedia Foundation 

rmerk...@wikimedia.org 
@ryanmerkley 
+1 416 802 0662

> On Jan 18, 2020, at 2:14 PM, John Erling Blad  wrote:
> 
> There are several reports of face recognition going mainstream, often
> in less than optimum circumstances, and often violating copyright and
> licenses
> 
> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/18/technology/clearview-privacy-facial-recognition.html
> https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/internet/facial-recognition-s-dirty-little-secret-millions-online-photos-scraped-n981921
> https://www.ibm.com/blogs/research/2019/01/diversity-in-faces/
> 
> In my opinion building a model for face recognition is a derived work,
> and as such must credit the photographers. That pose a real problem
> when the photographers counts in the millions and billions. Even a 1px
> fine print would be troublesome!
> 
> What is the official stance on this? Is it a copyright infringement or
> not, does the license(s) cover the case or not?
> 
> John Erling Blad
> /jeblad
> 
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Face recognition

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Face recognition

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Face recognition

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Face recognition

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Face recognition

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Face recognition

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Face recognition

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Face recognition

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