Re: [Wikimedia-l] Promotion of scientific racism in Wikipedia articles

2020-06-16 Thread Joseph Seddon 
This conversation has very quickly veered away from the original topic and
what the scope of this list is.

Seddon

On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 2:58 PM Gnangarra  wrote:

> yes, when the categories termed Race, when the discussion is about
> enforcing Race as a concept.
>
> The traits you speak of;
>
> >  hair color, aspects of bone structure, or susceptibility to certain
> > diseases are heritable characteristics of certain
>
> human populations?
>
>
> Are attributes of DNA and genetics... defining them by population locations
> is race its used to imply superiority of one person over another.   The
> term Fae has raised are not terms related to the science of DNA and
> genetics, these are terms use to justify atrocities and exclude people
>
>
> On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 at 21:49, Dennis During  wrote:
>
> > Are you actually saying that it is promoting biological racism to mention
> > the fact that, say, skin color, hair color, aspects of bone structure, or
> > susceptibility to certain diseases are heritable characteristics of
> certain
> > human populations?
> >
> > Is this some kind of practical joke you are trying to play on us?
> >
> > On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 9:42 AM Fæ  wrote:
> >
> > > What, you are really using a Wikimedia funded email list to promote
> > > biological racism? That's ... not acceptable behaviour.
> > >
> > > Go read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_racism.
> > >
> > > Fae
> > >
> > > On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 at 14:37, John Erling Blad 
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Feel free to explain how the appearance of race differences is not
> > > defined
> > > > by genetics. I have absolutely no problem accepting that people are
> > > > different, and that some people may even be better adapted to
> > > > the environment than me. ;)
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 3:32 PM Fæ  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > No, we do not call other Wikipedians "Negroid" because of their
> > > > > appearance meeting a racist theory published in the 1930s.
> > > > >
> > > > > Or were you trying to say something else, other than defending
> > > > > "scientific racism" on this public list?
> > > > >
> > > > > Fae
> > > > >
> > > > > On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 at 14:25, John Erling Blad 
> > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'm not sure it is wise to try to refute differences between
> > humans,
> > > > > > whether we call it race or something else, it is simply too easy
> to
> > > point
> > > > > > out the differences. We should rather promote that differences
> are
> > a
> > > > > > GoodThing™
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Humans do exhibit racial differences, but those differences
> should
> > > not be
> > > > > > used as an excuse for abusing other people.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'm a pink Norwegian, and I would probably die in the Kalahari
> > > desert,
> > > > > > unless rescued by someone from the San people. They are so darn
> > cool!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 2:57 PM Fæ  wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > It is remarkably easy to find various language Wikipedia
> articles
> > > that
> > > > > > > actively promote scientific racism. The forthcoming WMF
> universal
> > > code
> > > > > > > of conduct is unlikely to directly address this type of
> damaging
> > > > > > > anti-educational content, or require projects to take action.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > This may surprise some, but here are two examples, and if you
> > > follow
> > > > > > > the multiple language links in each, you will find many other
> > > language
> > > > > > > examples:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > [1] Wikipedia article in Russian about "Negroid race"
> (Негроидная
> > > > > > > раса) and associates Negroid as being defined by genetics.
> > Nowhere
> > > in
> > > > > > > the article is it explained that these are debunked racist
> > > theories.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > [2] Wikipedia article in Italian about "Mongoloid"
> (Mongoloide),
> > > > > > > defines being Mongoloid by physical characteristics and
> presents
> > > it as
> > > > > > > a scientific term with a section explaining how the Mogoloid
> race
> > > is
> > > > > > > geographically spread.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Unfortunately, as these outdated racist theories are Wikipedia
> > > > > > > articles, Wikimedia Commons still hosts multiple *user created*
> > > > > > > "racial maps" of the human race as if this were a current
> > > scientific
> > > > > > > race taxonomy for humans. These maps are not even required to
> > have
> > > > > > > warnings that their content is scientific racism or why that's
> a
> > > bad
> > > > > > > thing.[3]
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > At the current time, nobody is solving this problem with
> systemic
> > > > > > > racism and I am unaware of the WMF funding a project that will
> > take
> > > > > > > action to fix it, nor even tracking this repugnant material.
> The
> > > idea
> > > > > > > that we might still be vaguely talking about how bad it is that
> > > > > > > Wikipedia is being used to promote "Negroid race" as science in
> > >

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Promotion of scientific racism in Wikipedia articles

2020-06-16 Thread Pharos 
Wikipedia and the Wikimedia projects should reflect the scientific
consensus, whether that be on climate, vaccines, or the concept of
biological "races".

The latter concept is deeply tied to 19th-century pseudoscience, and is
very different from modern genetic science. Genetic traits have various
distributions by geography, but these are not grouped by "races", which is
largely an arbitrary social distinction.

I agree that this is not a particularly fruitful topic for discussion on
this mailing list.

Thanks,
Richard
(User:Pharos)

On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 9:42 AM Dennis During  wrote:

> I don't feel safe presenting truths in an environment where one can be
> bullied for presenting truths that are unfashionable or can be so painted.
> Does the Code of Conduct cover that?
>
> On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 8:57 AM Fæ  wrote:
>
> > It is remarkably easy to find various language Wikipedia articles that
> > actively promote scientific racism. The forthcoming WMF universal code
> > of conduct is unlikely to directly address this type of damaging
> > anti-educational content, or require projects to take action.
> >
> > This may surprise some, but here are two examples, and if you follow
> > the multiple language links in each, you will find many other language
> > examples:
> >
> > [1] Wikipedia article in Russian about "Negroid race" (Негроидная
> > раса) and associates Negroid as being defined by genetics. Nowhere in
> > the article is it explained that these are debunked racist theories.
> >
> > [2] Wikipedia article in Italian about "Mongoloid" (Mongoloide),
> > defines being Mongoloid by physical characteristics and presents it as
> > a scientific term with a section explaining how the Mogoloid race is
> > geographically spread.
> >
> > Unfortunately, as these outdated racist theories are Wikipedia
> > articles, Wikimedia Commons still hosts multiple *user created*
> > "racial maps" of the human race as if this were a current scientific
> > race taxonomy for humans. These maps are not even required to have
> > warnings that their content is scientific racism or why that's a bad
> > thing.[3]
> >
> > At the current time, nobody is solving this problem with systemic
> > racism and I am unaware of the WMF funding a project that will take
> > action to fix it, nor even tracking this repugnant material. The idea
> > that we might still be vaguely talking about how bad it is that
> > Wikipedia is being used to promote "Negroid race" as science in
> > several years time, without any systematic action to get rid of it or
> > at least correctly reformat the article to describe it as debunked,
> > should alarm everyone concerned that donor's money is supporting this
> > content.
> >
> > Links
> > 1.
> >
> https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9D%D0%B5%D0%B3%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%B0
> > 2. https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongoloide
> > 3.
> >
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/File:Average_East-Eurasian_ancestry_(Mongoloid).png
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Fae
> > --
> > fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
> >
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
>
>
>
> --
> Dennis C. During
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Promotion of scientific racism in Wikipedia articles

2020-06-16 Thread Gnangarra 
yes, when the categories termed Race, when the discussion is about
enforcing Race as a concept.

The traits you speak of;

>  hair color, aspects of bone structure, or susceptibility to certain
> diseases are heritable characteristics of certain

human populations?


Are attributes of DNA and genetics... defining them by population locations
is race its used to imply superiority of one person over another.   The
term Fae has raised are not terms related to the science of DNA and
genetics, these are terms use to justify atrocities and exclude people


On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 at 21:49, Dennis During  wrote:

> Are you actually saying that it is promoting biological racism to mention
> the fact that, say, skin color, hair color, aspects of bone structure, or
> susceptibility to certain diseases are heritable characteristics of certain
> human populations?
>
> Is this some kind of practical joke you are trying to play on us?
>
> On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 9:42 AM Fæ  wrote:
>
> > What, you are really using a Wikimedia funded email list to promote
> > biological racism? That's ... not acceptable behaviour.
> >
> > Go read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_racism.
> >
> > Fae
> >
> > On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 at 14:37, John Erling Blad  wrote:
> > >
> > > Feel free to explain how the appearance of race differences is not
> > defined
> > > by genetics. I have absolutely no problem accepting that people are
> > > different, and that some people may even be better adapted to
> > > the environment than me. ;)
> > >
> > > On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 3:32 PM Fæ  wrote:
> > >
> > > > No, we do not call other Wikipedians "Negroid" because of their
> > > > appearance meeting a racist theory published in the 1930s.
> > > >
> > > > Or were you trying to say something else, other than defending
> > > > "scientific racism" on this public list?
> > > >
> > > > Fae
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 at 14:25, John Erling Blad 
> > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm not sure it is wise to try to refute differences between
> humans,
> > > > > whether we call it race or something else, it is simply too easy to
> > point
> > > > > out the differences. We should rather promote that differences are
> a
> > > > > GoodThing™
> > > > >
> > > > > Humans do exhibit racial differences, but those differences should
> > not be
> > > > > used as an excuse for abusing other people.
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm a pink Norwegian, and I would probably die in the Kalahari
> > desert,
> > > > > unless rescued by someone from the San people. They are so darn
> cool!
> > > > >
> > > > > On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 2:57 PM Fæ  wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > It is remarkably easy to find various language Wikipedia articles
> > that
> > > > > > actively promote scientific racism. The forthcoming WMF universal
> > code
> > > > > > of conduct is unlikely to directly address this type of damaging
> > > > > > anti-educational content, or require projects to take action.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This may surprise some, but here are two examples, and if you
> > follow
> > > > > > the multiple language links in each, you will find many other
> > language
> > > > > > examples:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > [1] Wikipedia article in Russian about "Negroid race" (Негроидная
> > > > > > раса) and associates Negroid as being defined by genetics.
> Nowhere
> > in
> > > > > > the article is it explained that these are debunked racist
> > theories.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > [2] Wikipedia article in Italian about "Mongoloid" (Mongoloide),
> > > > > > defines being Mongoloid by physical characteristics and presents
> > it as
> > > > > > a scientific term with a section explaining how the Mogoloid race
> > is
> > > > > > geographically spread.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Unfortunately, as these outdated racist theories are Wikipedia
> > > > > > articles, Wikimedia Commons still hosts multiple *user created*
> > > > > > "racial maps" of the human race as if this were a current
> > scientific
> > > > > > race taxonomy for humans. These maps are not even required to
> have
> > > > > > warnings that their content is scientific racism or why that's a
> > bad
> > > > > > thing.[3]
> > > > > >
> > > > > > At the current time, nobody is solving this problem with systemic
> > > > > > racism and I am unaware of the WMF funding a project that will
> take
> > > > > > action to fix it, nor even tracking this repugnant material. The
> > idea
> > > > > > that we might still be vaguely talking about how bad it is that
> > > > > > Wikipedia is being used to promote "Negroid race" as science in
> > > > > > several years time, without any systematic action to get rid of
> it
> > or
> > > > > > at least correctly reformat the article to describe it as
> debunked,
> > > > > > should alarm everyone concerned that donor's money is supporting
> > this
> > > > > > content.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Links
> > > > > > 1.
> > > > > >
> > > >
> >
>

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Promotion of scientific racism in Wikipedia articles

2020-06-16 Thread Dennis During 
So you don't believe that skin color, susceptibility to disease etc are
heritable? Have you heard of DNA?

I had sincerely hoped that the equivalent of yahooist book-burning wouldn't
take over Wikimedia. It's not just disappointing; it's scary.

On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 9:49 AM Chico Venancio 
wrote:

> I don't feel safe in an environment were racism is being labeled as
> "presenting truths".
>
> Maybe the list moderators should take a look at this thread.
>
> Chico Venancio
>
> Em ter, 16 de jun de 2020 10:42, Dennis During 
> escreveu:
>
> > I don't feel safe presenting truths in an environment where one can be
> > bullied for presenting truths that are unfashionable or can be so
> painted.
> > Does the Code of Conduct cover that?
> >
> > On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 8:57 AM Fæ  wrote:
> >
> > > It is remarkably easy to find various language Wikipedia articles that
> > > actively promote scientific racism. The forthcoming WMF universal code
> > > of conduct is unlikely to directly address this type of damaging
> > > anti-educational content, or require projects to take action.
> > >
> > > This may surprise some, but here are two examples, and if you follow
> > > the multiple language links in each, you will find many other language
> > > examples:
> > >
> > > [1] Wikipedia article in Russian about "Negroid race" (Негроидная
> > > раса) and associates Negroid as being defined by genetics. Nowhere in
> > > the article is it explained that these are debunked racist theories.
> > >
> > > [2] Wikipedia article in Italian about "Mongoloid" (Mongoloide),
> > > defines being Mongoloid by physical characteristics and presents it as
> > > a scientific term with a section explaining how the Mogoloid race is
> > > geographically spread.
> > >
> > > Unfortunately, as these outdated racist theories are Wikipedia
> > > articles, Wikimedia Commons still hosts multiple *user created*
> > > "racial maps" of the human race as if this were a current scientific
> > > race taxonomy for humans. These maps are not even required to have
> > > warnings that their content is scientific racism or why that's a bad
> > > thing.[3]
> > >
> > > At the current time, nobody is solving this problem with systemic
> > > racism and I am unaware of the WMF funding a project that will take
> > > action to fix it, nor even tracking this repugnant material. The idea
> > > that we might still be vaguely talking about how bad it is that
> > > Wikipedia is being used to promote "Negroid race" as science in
> > > several years time, without any systematic action to get rid of it or
> > > at least correctly reformat the article to describe it as debunked,
> > > should alarm everyone concerned that donor's money is supporting this
> > > content.
> > >
> > > Links
> > > 1.
> > >
> >
> https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9D%D0%B5%D0%B3%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%B0
> > > 2. https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongoloide
> > > 3.
> > >
> >
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/File:Average_East-Eurasian_ancestry_(Mongoloid).png
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Fae
> > > --
> > > fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > 
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Dennis C. During
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 



-- 
Dennis C. During
___
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Promotion of scientific racism in Wikipedia articles

2020-06-16 Thread Dennis During 
Are you actually saying that it is promoting biological racism to mention
the fact that, say, skin color, hair color, aspects of bone structure, or
susceptibility to certain diseases are heritable characteristics of certain
human populations?

Is this some kind of practical joke you are trying to play on us?

On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 9:42 AM Fæ  wrote:

> What, you are really using a Wikimedia funded email list to promote
> biological racism? That's ... not acceptable behaviour.
>
> Go read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_racism.
>
> Fae
>
> On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 at 14:37, John Erling Blad  wrote:
> >
> > Feel free to explain how the appearance of race differences is not
> defined
> > by genetics. I have absolutely no problem accepting that people are
> > different, and that some people may even be better adapted to
> > the environment than me. ;)
> >
> > On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 3:32 PM Fæ  wrote:
> >
> > > No, we do not call other Wikipedians "Negroid" because of their
> > > appearance meeting a racist theory published in the 1930s.
> > >
> > > Or were you trying to say something else, other than defending
> > > "scientific racism" on this public list?
> > >
> > > Fae
> > >
> > > On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 at 14:25, John Erling Blad 
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I'm not sure it is wise to try to refute differences between humans,
> > > > whether we call it race or something else, it is simply too easy to
> point
> > > > out the differences. We should rather promote that differences are a
> > > > GoodThing™
> > > >
> > > > Humans do exhibit racial differences, but those differences should
> not be
> > > > used as an excuse for abusing other people.
> > > >
> > > > I'm a pink Norwegian, and I would probably die in the Kalahari
> desert,
> > > > unless rescued by someone from the San people. They are so darn cool!
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 2:57 PM Fæ  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > It is remarkably easy to find various language Wikipedia articles
> that
> > > > > actively promote scientific racism. The forthcoming WMF universal
> code
> > > > > of conduct is unlikely to directly address this type of damaging
> > > > > anti-educational content, or require projects to take action.
> > > > >
> > > > > This may surprise some, but here are two examples, and if you
> follow
> > > > > the multiple language links in each, you will find many other
> language
> > > > > examples:
> > > > >
> > > > > [1] Wikipedia article in Russian about "Negroid race" (Негроидная
> > > > > раса) and associates Negroid as being defined by genetics. Nowhere
> in
> > > > > the article is it explained that these are debunked racist
> theories.
> > > > >
> > > > > [2] Wikipedia article in Italian about "Mongoloid" (Mongoloide),
> > > > > defines being Mongoloid by physical characteristics and presents
> it as
> > > > > a scientific term with a section explaining how the Mogoloid race
> is
> > > > > geographically spread.
> > > > >
> > > > > Unfortunately, as these outdated racist theories are Wikipedia
> > > > > articles, Wikimedia Commons still hosts multiple *user created*
> > > > > "racial maps" of the human race as if this were a current
> scientific
> > > > > race taxonomy for humans. These maps are not even required to have
> > > > > warnings that their content is scientific racism or why that's a
> bad
> > > > > thing.[3]
> > > > >
> > > > > At the current time, nobody is solving this problem with systemic
> > > > > racism and I am unaware of the WMF funding a project that will take
> > > > > action to fix it, nor even tracking this repugnant material. The
> idea
> > > > > that we might still be vaguely talking about how bad it is that
> > > > > Wikipedia is being used to promote "Negroid race" as science in
> > > > > several years time, without any systematic action to get rid of it
> or
> > > > > at least correctly reformat the article to describe it as debunked,
> > > > > should alarm everyone concerned that donor's money is supporting
> this
> > > > > content.
> > > > >
> > > > > Links
> > > > > 1.
> > > > >
> > >
> https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9D%D0%B5%D0%B3%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%B0
> > > > > 2. https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongoloide
> > > > > 3.
> > > > >
> > >
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/File:Average_East-Eurasian_ancestry_(Mongoloid).png
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > Fae
> > > > > --
> > > > > fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
> > > > >
> > > > > ___
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > >  ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Promotion of scientific racism in Wikipedia articles

2020-06-16 Thread Chico Venancio 
I don't feel safe in an environment were racism is being labeled as
"presenting truths".

Maybe the list moderators should take a look at this thread.

Chico Venancio

Em ter, 16 de jun de 2020 10:42, Dennis During 
escreveu:

> I don't feel safe presenting truths in an environment where one can be
> bullied for presenting truths that are unfashionable or can be so painted.
> Does the Code of Conduct cover that?
>
> On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 8:57 AM Fæ  wrote:
>
> > It is remarkably easy to find various language Wikipedia articles that
> > actively promote scientific racism. The forthcoming WMF universal code
> > of conduct is unlikely to directly address this type of damaging
> > anti-educational content, or require projects to take action.
> >
> > This may surprise some, but here are two examples, and if you follow
> > the multiple language links in each, you will find many other language
> > examples:
> >
> > [1] Wikipedia article in Russian about "Negroid race" (Негроидная
> > раса) and associates Negroid as being defined by genetics. Nowhere in
> > the article is it explained that these are debunked racist theories.
> >
> > [2] Wikipedia article in Italian about "Mongoloid" (Mongoloide),
> > defines being Mongoloid by physical characteristics and presents it as
> > a scientific term with a section explaining how the Mogoloid race is
> > geographically spread.
> >
> > Unfortunately, as these outdated racist theories are Wikipedia
> > articles, Wikimedia Commons still hosts multiple *user created*
> > "racial maps" of the human race as if this were a current scientific
> > race taxonomy for humans. These maps are not even required to have
> > warnings that their content is scientific racism or why that's a bad
> > thing.[3]
> >
> > At the current time, nobody is solving this problem with systemic
> > racism and I am unaware of the WMF funding a project that will take
> > action to fix it, nor even tracking this repugnant material. The idea
> > that we might still be vaguely talking about how bad it is that
> > Wikipedia is being used to promote "Negroid race" as science in
> > several years time, without any systematic action to get rid of it or
> > at least correctly reformat the article to describe it as debunked,
> > should alarm everyone concerned that donor's money is supporting this
> > content.
> >
> > Links
> > 1.
> >
> https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9D%D0%B5%D0%B3%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%B0
> > 2. https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongoloide
> > 3.
> >
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/File:Average_East-Eurasian_ancestry_(Mongoloid).png
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Fae
> > --
> > fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
> >
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
>
>
>
> --
> Dennis C. During
> ___
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Promotion of scientific racism in Wikipedia articles

2020-06-16 Thread Dennis During 
I don't feel safe presenting truths in an environment where one can be
bullied for presenting truths that are unfashionable or can be so painted.
Does the Code of Conduct cover that?

On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 8:57 AM Fæ  wrote:

> It is remarkably easy to find various language Wikipedia articles that
> actively promote scientific racism. The forthcoming WMF universal code
> of conduct is unlikely to directly address this type of damaging
> anti-educational content, or require projects to take action.
>
> This may surprise some, but here are two examples, and if you follow
> the multiple language links in each, you will find many other language
> examples:
>
> [1] Wikipedia article in Russian about "Negroid race" (Негроидная
> раса) and associates Negroid as being defined by genetics. Nowhere in
> the article is it explained that these are debunked racist theories.
>
> [2] Wikipedia article in Italian about "Mongoloid" (Mongoloide),
> defines being Mongoloid by physical characteristics and presents it as
> a scientific term with a section explaining how the Mogoloid race is
> geographically spread.
>
> Unfortunately, as these outdated racist theories are Wikipedia
> articles, Wikimedia Commons still hosts multiple *user created*
> "racial maps" of the human race as if this were a current scientific
> race taxonomy for humans. These maps are not even required to have
> warnings that their content is scientific racism or why that's a bad
> thing.[3]
>
> At the current time, nobody is solving this problem with systemic
> racism and I am unaware of the WMF funding a project that will take
> action to fix it, nor even tracking this repugnant material. The idea
> that we might still be vaguely talking about how bad it is that
> Wikipedia is being used to promote "Negroid race" as science in
> several years time, without any systematic action to get rid of it or
> at least correctly reformat the article to describe it as debunked,
> should alarm everyone concerned that donor's money is supporting this
> content.
>
> Links
> 1.
> https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9D%D0%B5%D0%B3%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%B0
> 2. https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongoloide
> 3.
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/File:Average_East-Eurasian_ancestry_(Mongoloid).png
>
> Thanks,
> Fae
> --
> fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
>
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
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> 



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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Promotion of scientific racism in Wikipedia articles

2020-06-16 Thread Fæ 
What, you are really using a Wikimedia funded email list to promote
biological racism? That's ... not acceptable behaviour.

Go read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_racism.

Fae

On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 at 14:37, John Erling Blad  wrote:
>
> Feel free to explain how the appearance of race differences is not defined
> by genetics. I have absolutely no problem accepting that people are
> different, and that some people may even be better adapted to
> the environment than me. ;)
>
> On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 3:32 PM Fæ  wrote:
>
> > No, we do not call other Wikipedians "Negroid" because of their
> > appearance meeting a racist theory published in the 1930s.
> >
> > Or were you trying to say something else, other than defending
> > "scientific racism" on this public list?
> >
> > Fae
> >
> > On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 at 14:25, John Erling Blad  wrote:
> > >
> > > I'm not sure it is wise to try to refute differences between humans,
> > > whether we call it race or something else, it is simply too easy to point
> > > out the differences. We should rather promote that differences are a
> > > GoodThing™
> > >
> > > Humans do exhibit racial differences, but those differences should not be
> > > used as an excuse for abusing other people.
> > >
> > > I'm a pink Norwegian, and I would probably die in the Kalahari desert,
> > > unless rescued by someone from the San people. They are so darn cool!
> > >
> > > On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 2:57 PM Fæ  wrote:
> > >
> > > > It is remarkably easy to find various language Wikipedia articles that
> > > > actively promote scientific racism. The forthcoming WMF universal code
> > > > of conduct is unlikely to directly address this type of damaging
> > > > anti-educational content, or require projects to take action.
> > > >
> > > > This may surprise some, but here are two examples, and if you follow
> > > > the multiple language links in each, you will find many other language
> > > > examples:
> > > >
> > > > [1] Wikipedia article in Russian about "Negroid race" (Негроидная
> > > > раса) and associates Negroid as being defined by genetics. Nowhere in
> > > > the article is it explained that these are debunked racist theories.
> > > >
> > > > [2] Wikipedia article in Italian about "Mongoloid" (Mongoloide),
> > > > defines being Mongoloid by physical characteristics and presents it as
> > > > a scientific term with a section explaining how the Mogoloid race is
> > > > geographically spread.
> > > >
> > > > Unfortunately, as these outdated racist theories are Wikipedia
> > > > articles, Wikimedia Commons still hosts multiple *user created*
> > > > "racial maps" of the human race as if this were a current scientific
> > > > race taxonomy for humans. These maps are not even required to have
> > > > warnings that their content is scientific racism or why that's a bad
> > > > thing.[3]
> > > >
> > > > At the current time, nobody is solving this problem with systemic
> > > > racism and I am unaware of the WMF funding a project that will take
> > > > action to fix it, nor even tracking this repugnant material. The idea
> > > > that we might still be vaguely talking about how bad it is that
> > > > Wikipedia is being used to promote "Negroid race" as science in
> > > > several years time, without any systematic action to get rid of it or
> > > > at least correctly reformat the article to describe it as debunked,
> > > > should alarm everyone concerned that donor's money is supporting this
> > > > content.
> > > >
> > > > Links
> > > > 1.
> > > >
> > https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9D%D0%B5%D0%B3%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%B0
> > > > 2. https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongoloide
> > > > 3.
> > > >
> > https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/File:Average_East-Eurasian_ancestry_(Mongoloid).png
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > Fae
> > > > --
> > > > fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
> > > >
> > > > ___
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > 
> > > ___
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
> >
> > --
> > fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
> >
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> >

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Promotion of scientific racism in Wikipedia articles

2020-06-16 Thread John Erling Blad 
Feel free to explain how the appearance of race differences is not defined
by genetics. I have absolutely no problem accepting that people are
different, and that some people may even be better adapted to
the environment than me. ;)

On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 3:32 PM Fæ  wrote:

> No, we do not call other Wikipedians "Negroid" because of their
> appearance meeting a racist theory published in the 1930s.
>
> Or were you trying to say something else, other than defending
> "scientific racism" on this public list?
>
> Fae
>
> On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 at 14:25, John Erling Blad  wrote:
> >
> > I'm not sure it is wise to try to refute differences between humans,
> > whether we call it race or something else, it is simply too easy to point
> > out the differences. We should rather promote that differences are a
> > GoodThing™
> >
> > Humans do exhibit racial differences, but those differences should not be
> > used as an excuse for abusing other people.
> >
> > I'm a pink Norwegian, and I would probably die in the Kalahari desert,
> > unless rescued by someone from the San people. They are so darn cool!
> >
> > On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 2:57 PM Fæ  wrote:
> >
> > > It is remarkably easy to find various language Wikipedia articles that
> > > actively promote scientific racism. The forthcoming WMF universal code
> > > of conduct is unlikely to directly address this type of damaging
> > > anti-educational content, or require projects to take action.
> > >
> > > This may surprise some, but here are two examples, and if you follow
> > > the multiple language links in each, you will find many other language
> > > examples:
> > >
> > > [1] Wikipedia article in Russian about "Negroid race" (Негроидная
> > > раса) and associates Negroid as being defined by genetics. Nowhere in
> > > the article is it explained that these are debunked racist theories.
> > >
> > > [2] Wikipedia article in Italian about "Mongoloid" (Mongoloide),
> > > defines being Mongoloid by physical characteristics and presents it as
> > > a scientific term with a section explaining how the Mogoloid race is
> > > geographically spread.
> > >
> > > Unfortunately, as these outdated racist theories are Wikipedia
> > > articles, Wikimedia Commons still hosts multiple *user created*
> > > "racial maps" of the human race as if this were a current scientific
> > > race taxonomy for humans. These maps are not even required to have
> > > warnings that their content is scientific racism or why that's a bad
> > > thing.[3]
> > >
> > > At the current time, nobody is solving this problem with systemic
> > > racism and I am unaware of the WMF funding a project that will take
> > > action to fix it, nor even tracking this repugnant material. The idea
> > > that we might still be vaguely talking about how bad it is that
> > > Wikipedia is being used to promote "Negroid race" as science in
> > > several years time, without any systematic action to get rid of it or
> > > at least correctly reformat the article to describe it as debunked,
> > > should alarm everyone concerned that donor's money is supporting this
> > > content.
> > >
> > > Links
> > > 1.
> > >
> https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9D%D0%B5%D0%B3%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%B0
> > > 2. https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongoloide
> > > 3.
> > >
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/File:Average_East-Eurasian_ancestry_(Mongoloid).png
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Fae
> > > --
> > > fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > 
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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> 
>
> --
> fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Promotion of scientific racism in Wikipedia articles

2020-06-16 Thread Fæ 
No, we do not call other Wikipedians "Negroid" because of their
appearance meeting a racist theory published in the 1930s.

Or were you trying to say something else, other than defending
"scientific racism" on this public list?

Fae

On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 at 14:25, John Erling Blad  wrote:
>
> I'm not sure it is wise to try to refute differences between humans,
> whether we call it race or something else, it is simply too easy to point
> out the differences. We should rather promote that differences are a
> GoodThing™
>
> Humans do exhibit racial differences, but those differences should not be
> used as an excuse for abusing other people.
>
> I'm a pink Norwegian, and I would probably die in the Kalahari desert,
> unless rescued by someone from the San people. They are so darn cool!
>
> On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 2:57 PM Fæ  wrote:
>
> > It is remarkably easy to find various language Wikipedia articles that
> > actively promote scientific racism. The forthcoming WMF universal code
> > of conduct is unlikely to directly address this type of damaging
> > anti-educational content, or require projects to take action.
> >
> > This may surprise some, but here are two examples, and if you follow
> > the multiple language links in each, you will find many other language
> > examples:
> >
> > [1] Wikipedia article in Russian about "Negroid race" (Негроидная
> > раса) and associates Negroid as being defined by genetics. Nowhere in
> > the article is it explained that these are debunked racist theories.
> >
> > [2] Wikipedia article in Italian about "Mongoloid" (Mongoloide),
> > defines being Mongoloid by physical characteristics and presents it as
> > a scientific term with a section explaining how the Mogoloid race is
> > geographically spread.
> >
> > Unfortunately, as these outdated racist theories are Wikipedia
> > articles, Wikimedia Commons still hosts multiple *user created*
> > "racial maps" of the human race as if this were a current scientific
> > race taxonomy for humans. These maps are not even required to have
> > warnings that their content is scientific racism or why that's a bad
> > thing.[3]
> >
> > At the current time, nobody is solving this problem with systemic
> > racism and I am unaware of the WMF funding a project that will take
> > action to fix it, nor even tracking this repugnant material. The idea
> > that we might still be vaguely talking about how bad it is that
> > Wikipedia is being used to promote "Negroid race" as science in
> > several years time, without any systematic action to get rid of it or
> > at least correctly reformat the article to describe it as debunked,
> > should alarm everyone concerned that donor's money is supporting this
> > content.
> >
> > Links
> > 1.
> > https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9D%D0%B5%D0%B3%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%B0
> > 2. https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongoloide
> > 3.
> > https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/File:Average_East-Eurasian_ancestry_(Mongoloid).png
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Fae
> > --
> > fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
> >
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
> ___
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> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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> 

-- 
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Promotion of scientific racism in Wikipedia articles

2020-06-16 Thread John Erling Blad 
I'm not sure it is wise to try to refute differences between humans,
whether we call it race or something else, it is simply too easy to point
out the differences. We should rather promote that differences are a
GoodThing™

Humans do exhibit racial differences, but those differences should not be
used as an excuse for abusing other people.

I'm a pink Norwegian, and I would probably die in the Kalahari desert,
unless rescued by someone from the San people. They are so darn cool!

On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 2:57 PM Fæ  wrote:

> It is remarkably easy to find various language Wikipedia articles that
> actively promote scientific racism. The forthcoming WMF universal code
> of conduct is unlikely to directly address this type of damaging
> anti-educational content, or require projects to take action.
>
> This may surprise some, but here are two examples, and if you follow
> the multiple language links in each, you will find many other language
> examples:
>
> [1] Wikipedia article in Russian about "Negroid race" (Негроидная
> раса) and associates Negroid as being defined by genetics. Nowhere in
> the article is it explained that these are debunked racist theories.
>
> [2] Wikipedia article in Italian about "Mongoloid" (Mongoloide),
> defines being Mongoloid by physical characteristics and presents it as
> a scientific term with a section explaining how the Mogoloid race is
> geographically spread.
>
> Unfortunately, as these outdated racist theories are Wikipedia
> articles, Wikimedia Commons still hosts multiple *user created*
> "racial maps" of the human race as if this were a current scientific
> race taxonomy for humans. These maps are not even required to have
> warnings that their content is scientific racism or why that's a bad
> thing.[3]
>
> At the current time, nobody is solving this problem with systemic
> racism and I am unaware of the WMF funding a project that will take
> action to fix it, nor even tracking this repugnant material. The idea
> that we might still be vaguely talking about how bad it is that
> Wikipedia is being used to promote "Negroid race" as science in
> several years time, without any systematic action to get rid of it or
> at least correctly reformat the article to describe it as debunked,
> should alarm everyone concerned that donor's money is supporting this
> content.
>
> Links
> 1.
> https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9D%D0%B5%D0%B3%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%B0
> 2. https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongoloide
> 3.
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/File:Average_East-Eurasian_ancestry_(Mongoloid).png
>
> Thanks,
> Fae
> --
> fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
>
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
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