Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikidata-l] Meeting about the support of Wiktionary in Wikidata

2013-08-10 Thread Denny Vrandečić
[Sorry for cross-posting]

Yes, I agree that the OmegaWiki community should be involved in the
discussions, and I pointed GerardM to our proposals whenever and
discussions, using him as a liaison. We also looked and keep looking at the
OmegaWiki data model to see what we are missing.

Our latest proposal is different from OmegaWiki in two major points:

* our primary goal is to provide support for structured data in the
Wiktionaries. We do not plan to be the main resource ourselves, where
readers come to in order to look up something, we merely provide structured
data that a Wiktionary may or may not use. This parallels the role of
Wikidata has with regards to Wikipedia. This also highlights the difference
between Wikidata and OmegaWiki, since OmegaWiki's goal is to create a
dictionary of all words of all languages, including lexical, terminological
and ontological information.

* a smaller difference is the data model. Wikidata's latest proposal to
support Wiktionary is centered around lexemes, and we do not assume that
there is such a things as a language-independent defined meaning. But no
matter what model we end up with, it is important to ensure that the bulk
of the data could freely flow between the projects, and even though we
might disagree on this issue in the modeling, it is ensured that the
exchange of data is widely possible.

We tried to keep notes on the discussion we had today: 
http://epl.wikimedia.org/p/WiktionaryAndWikidata

My major take home message for me is that:
* the proposal needs more visual elements, especially a mock-up or sketch
of how it would look like and how it could be used on the Wiktionaries
* there is no generally accepted place for a discussion that involves all
Wiktionary projects. Still, my initial decision to have the discussion on
the Wikidata wiki was not a good one, and it should and will be moved to
Meta.

Having said that, the current proposal for the data model of how to support
Wiktionary with Wikidata seems to have garnered a lot of support so far. So
this is what I will continue building upon. Further comments are extremely
welcomed. You can find it here:

http://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Wiktionary

As said, it will be moved to Meta, as soon as the requested mockups and
extensions are done.

Cheers,
Denny





2013/8/10 Samuel Klein meta...@gmail.com

 Hello,

  On Fri, Aug 9, 2013 at 6:13 PM, JP Béland lebo.bel...@gmail.com wrote:
  I agree. We also need to include the Omegawiki community.

 Agreed.

 On Fri, Aug 9, 2013 at 12:22 PM, Laura Hale la...@fanhistory.com wrote:
  Why? The question of moving them into the WMF fold was pretty much no,
  because the project has an overlapping purpose with Wiktionary,

 This is not actually the case.
 There was overwhelming community support for adopting Omegawiki - at
 least simply providing hosting.  It stalled because the code needed a
 security and style review, and Kip (the lead developer) was going to
 put some time into that.  The OW editors and dev were very interested
 in finding a way forward that involved Wikidata and led to a combined
 project with a single repository of terms, meanings, definitions and
 translations.

 Recap: The page describing the OmegaWiki project satisfies all of the
 criteria for requesting WMF adoption.
 * It is well-defined on Meta http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Omegawiki
 * It describes an interesting idea clearly aligned with expanding the
 scope of free knowledge
 * It is not a 'competing' project to Wiktionaries; it is an idea that
 grew out of the Wiktionary community, has been developed for years
 alongside it, and shares many active contributors and linguiaphiles.
 * It started an RfC which garnered 85% support for adoption.
 http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Adopt_OmegaWiki

 Even if the current OW code is not used at all for a future Wiktionary
 update -- and this idea was proposed and taken seriously by the OW
 devs -- their community of contributors should be part of discussions
 about how to solve the Wiktionary problem that they were the first to
 dedicate themselves to.

 Regards,
 Sam.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikidata-l] Meeting about the support of Wiktionary in Wikidata

2013-08-10 Thread David Cuenca
To add up a couple of comments to what Denny said, from my experience with
Wikisource, reaching out to international, loosely connected communities is
already a big challenge on its own. I would like to invite Wiktionary
contributors to take a look to this Individual Engagement Grant project
that Aubrey and me are doing for Wikisource, because maybe it would make
sense that a group of involved Wiktionarians started a similar initiative
for Wiktionary. The original application can be found here:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IEG/Elaborate_Wikisource_strategic_vision

And the midterm report:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IEG/Elaborate_Wikisource_strategic_vision

If anyone from the Wiktionary community wants to step forward, I would be
more than happy to share experiences and provide advice.

Cheers,
Micru

On Sat, Aug 10, 2013 at 3:30 AM, Denny Vrandečić 
denny.vrande...@wikimedia.de wrote:

 [Sorry for cross-posting]

 Yes, I agree that the OmegaWiki community should be involved in the
 discussions, and I pointed GerardM to our proposals whenever and
 discussions, using him as a liaison. We also looked and keep looking at the
 OmegaWiki data model to see what we are missing.

 Our latest proposal is different from OmegaWiki in two major points:

 * our primary goal is to provide support for structured data in the
 Wiktionaries. We do not plan to be the main resource ourselves, where
 readers come to in order to look up something, we merely provide structured
 data that a Wiktionary may or may not use. This parallels the role of
 Wikidata has with regards to Wikipedia. This also highlights the difference
 between Wikidata and OmegaWiki, since OmegaWiki's goal is to create a
 dictionary of all words of all languages, including lexical, terminological
 and ontological information.

 * a smaller difference is the data model. Wikidata's latest proposal to
 support Wiktionary is centered around lexemes, and we do not assume that
 there is such a things as a language-independent defined meaning. But no
 matter what model we end up with, it is important to ensure that the bulk
 of the data could freely flow between the projects, and even though we
 might disagree on this issue in the modeling, it is ensured that the
 exchange of data is widely possible.

 We tried to keep notes on the discussion we had today: 
 http://epl.wikimedia.org/p/WiktionaryAndWikidata

 My major take home message for me is that:
 * the proposal needs more visual elements, especially a mock-up or sketch
 of how it would look like and how it could be used on the Wiktionaries
 * there is no generally accepted place for a discussion that involves all
 Wiktionary projects. Still, my initial decision to have the discussion on
 the Wikidata wiki was not a good one, and it should and will be moved to
 Meta.

 Having said that, the current proposal for the data model of how to support
 Wiktionary with Wikidata seems to have garnered a lot of support so far. So
 this is what I will continue building upon. Further comments are extremely
 welcomed. You can find it here:

 http://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Wiktionary

 As said, it will be moved to Meta, as soon as the requested mockups and
 extensions are done.

 Cheers,
 Denny





 2013/8/10 Samuel Klein meta...@gmail.com

  Hello,
 
   On Fri, Aug 9, 2013 at 6:13 PM, JP Béland lebo.bel...@gmail.com
 wrote:
   I agree. We also need to include the Omegawiki community.
 
  Agreed.
 
  On Fri, Aug 9, 2013 at 12:22 PM, Laura Hale la...@fanhistory.com
 wrote:
   Why? The question of moving them into the WMF fold was pretty much no,
   because the project has an overlapping purpose with Wiktionary,
 
  This is not actually the case.
  There was overwhelming community support for adopting Omegawiki - at
  least simply providing hosting.  It stalled because the code needed a
  security and style review, and Kip (the lead developer) was going to
  put some time into that.  The OW editors and dev were very interested
  in finding a way forward that involved Wikidata and led to a combined
  project with a single repository of terms, meanings, definitions and
  translations.
 
  Recap: The page describing the OmegaWiki project satisfies all of the
  criteria for requesting WMF adoption.
  * It is well-defined on Meta http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Omegawiki
  * It describes an interesting idea clearly aligned with expanding the
  scope of free knowledge
  * It is not a 'competing' project to Wiktionaries; it is an idea that
  grew out of the Wiktionary community, has been developed for years
  alongside it, and shares many active contributors and linguiaphiles.
  * It started an RfC which garnered 85% support for adoption.
  http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Adopt_OmegaWiki
 
  Even if the current OW code is not used at all for a future Wiktionary
  update -- and this idea was proposed and taken seriously by the OW
  devs -- their community of contributors should be part of 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikidata-l] Meeting about the support of Wiktionary in Wikidata

2013-08-09 Thread Romaine Wiki
Are there much users from Wiktionary in Hong Kong? I do not think any of the 
Dutch users is, I can't say for others.

I think it would be essential that this subject is discussed inside the wider 
Wiktionary community. To me the group of users participating is too narrow. 
Also is a mailing list not handy as most of the users from Wiktionary do not 
read that. I think a Wikt-community wide discussion is needed.

Romaine



On Fri, 8/9/13, David Cuenca dacu...@gmail.com wrote:

 Subject: [Wikidata-l] Meeting about the support of Wiktionary in Wikidata
 To: wiktionar...@lists.wikimedia.org, Wikimania general list (open 
subscription) wikimani...@lists.wikimedia.org, Discussion list for the 
Wikidata project. wikidat...@lists.wikimedia.org, Wikimedia Mailing List 
wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
 Date: Friday, August 9, 2013, 4:43 AM
 
 Hi,
 
 
 If there is someone in Wikimania interested in participating
 in the talks about the future support of Wiktionary in
 Wikidata, we will having a discussion about the several
 proposals.
 
 
 
 http://wikimania2013.wikimedia.org/wiki/Support_of_Wiktionary_in_Wikidata
 
 Date : Saturday, 10 Aug, 11:30 am - 1:00 pm
 
 
 Place: Y520 (block Y, 5th floor)
 
 See you there,
 Micru
 
 
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikidata-l] Meeting about the support of Wiktionary in Wikidata

2013-08-09 Thread Mathieu Stumpf

Le 2013-08-09 13:04, Romaine Wiki a écrit :

Are there much users from Wiktionary in Hong Kong? I do not think any
of the Dutch users is, I can't say for others.

I think it would be essential that this subject is discussed inside
the wider Wiktionary community. To me the group of users 
participating

is too narrow. Also is a mailing list not handy as most of the users
from Wiktionary do not read that. I think a Wikt-community wide
discussion is needed.


I agree, and I think meta would be the most obvious channel for such
a discussion.

As said in the previous email, there's already [[Wiktionary future]]
which is waiting for contributions and discussion on meta. Anyway,
whatever the canal, it would be realy important to make aware as
much contributors as possible aware of this initiative, so they can
provide relevant feedback specific to their needs.



Romaine



On Fri, 8/9/13, David Cuenca dacu...@gmail.com wrote:

 Subject: [Wikidata-l] Meeting about the support of Wiktionary in 
Wikidata

 To: wiktionar...@lists.wikimedia.org, Wikimania general list (open
subscription) wikimani...@lists.wikimedia.org, Discussion list 
for

the Wikidata project. wikidat...@lists.wikimedia.org, Wikimedia
Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
 Date: Friday, August 9, 2013, 4:43 AM

 Hi,


 If there is someone in Wikimania interested in participating
 in the talks about the future support of Wiktionary in
 Wikidata, we will having a discussion about the several
 proposals.



 
http://wikimania2013.wikimedia.org/wiki/Support_of_Wiktionary_in_Wikidata


 Date : Saturday, 10 Aug, 11:30 am - 1:00 pm


 Place: Y520 (block Y, 5th floor)

 See you there,
 Micru


 -Inline Attachment Follows-

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikidata-l] Meeting about the support of Wiktionary in Wikidata

2013-08-09 Thread JP Béland
I agree. We also need to include the Omegawiki community.

JP
On Aug 9, 2013 8:17 PM, Mathieu Stumpf psychosl...@culture-libre.org
wrote:

 Le 2013-08-09 13:04, Romaine Wiki a écrit :

 Are there much users from Wiktionary in Hong Kong? I do not think any
 of the Dutch users is, I can't say for others.

 I think it would be essential that this subject is discussed inside
 the wider Wiktionary community. To me the group of users participating
 is too narrow. Also is a mailing list not handy as most of the users
 from Wiktionary do not read that. I think a Wikt-community wide
 discussion is needed.


 I agree, and I think meta would be the most obvious channel for such
 a discussion.

 As said in the previous email, there's already [[Wiktionary future]]
 which is waiting for contributions and discussion on meta. Anyway,
 whatever the canal, it would be realy important to make aware as
 much contributors as possible aware of this initiative, so they can
 provide relevant feedback specific to their needs.


 Romaine


 --**--
 On Fri, 8/9/13, David Cuenca dacu...@gmail.com wrote:

  Subject: [Wikidata-l] Meeting about the support of Wiktionary in Wikidata
  To: wiktionary-l@lists.wikimedia.**orgwiktionar...@lists.wikimedia.org,
 Wikimania general list (open
 subscription) 
 wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.**orgwikimani...@lists.wikimedia.org,
 Discussion list for
 the Wikidata project. 
 wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.**orgwikidat...@lists.wikimedia.org,
 Wikimedia
 Mailing List 
 wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.**orgwikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
 
  Date: Friday, August 9, 2013, 4:43 AM

  Hi,


  If there is someone in Wikimania interested in participating
  in the talks about the future support of Wiktionary in
  Wikidata, we will having a discussion about the several
  proposals.



  http://wikimania2013.**wikimedia.org/wiki/Support_of_**
 Wiktionary_in_Wikidatahttp://wikimania2013.wikimedia.org/wiki/Support_of_Wiktionary_in_Wikidata

  Date : Saturday, 10 Aug, 11:30 am - 1:00 pm


  Place: Y520 (block Y, 5th floor)

  See you there,
  Micru


  -Inline Attachment Follows-

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 https://lists.wikimedia.org/**mailman/listinfo/wikidata-lhttps://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikidata-l] Meeting about the support of Wiktionary in Wikidata

2013-08-09 Thread Laura Hale
On Fri, Aug 9, 2013 at 6:13 PM, JP Béland lebo.bel...@gmail.com wrote:

 I agree. We also need to include the Omegawiki community.


Why? The question of moving them into the WMF fold was pretty much no,
because the project has an overlapping purpose with Wiktionary, and the
technology they use cannot be supported with the existing resources
available.  There was a great deal of community reasoned community
opposition.

If they independently want to engage in the process on the Wikidata side
without a goal of creating a competing Wikimedia project, that is one
thing... but bringing them to the table as equals sets bad precedent for
sister projects, contributor retention, community support, etc.


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikidata-l] Meeting about the support of Wiktionary in Wikidata

2013-08-09 Thread JP Béland
Just because the service Wikidata could provide to Wiktionaries is exactly
what Omegawiki is doing. I'm not saying to talk about Omegawiki joining WMF
but looking at a way to use what volunteers already committed time to
develop on Omegawiki on Wikidata implementation for Wiktionaries.
 On Aug 10, 2013 12:22 AM, Laura Hale la...@fanhistory.com wrote:

 On Fri, Aug 9, 2013 at 6:13 PM, JP Béland lebo.bel...@gmail.com wrote:

  I agree. We also need to include the Omegawiki community.
 

 Why? The question of moving them into the WMF fold was pretty much no,
 because the project has an overlapping purpose with Wiktionary, and the
 technology they use cannot be supported with the existing resources
 available.  There was a great deal of community reasoned community
 opposition.

 If they independently want to engage in the process on the Wikidata side
 without a goal of creating a competing Wikimedia project, that is one
 thing... but bringing them to the table as equals sets bad precedent for
 sister projects, contributor retention, community support, etc.


 --
 twitter: purplepopple
 blog: ozziesport.com
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikidata-l] Meeting about the support of Wiktionary in Wikidata

2013-08-09 Thread Samuel Klein
Hello,

 On Fri, Aug 9, 2013 at 6:13 PM, JP Béland lebo.bel...@gmail.com wrote:
 I agree. We also need to include the Omegawiki community.

Agreed.

On Fri, Aug 9, 2013 at 12:22 PM, Laura Hale la...@fanhistory.com wrote:
 Why? The question of moving them into the WMF fold was pretty much no,
 because the project has an overlapping purpose with Wiktionary,

This is not actually the case.
There was overwhelming community support for adopting Omegawiki - at
least simply providing hosting.  It stalled because the code needed a
security and style review, and Kip (the lead developer) was going to
put some time into that.  The OW editors and dev were very interested
in finding a way forward that involved Wikidata and led to a combined
project with a single repository of terms, meanings, definitions and
translations.

Recap: The page describing the OmegaWiki project satisfies all of the
criteria for requesting WMF adoption.
* It is well-defined on Meta http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Omegawiki
* It describes an interesting idea clearly aligned with expanding the
scope of free knowledge
* It is not a 'competing' project to Wiktionaries; it is an idea that
grew out of the Wiktionary community, has been developed for years
alongside it, and shares many active contributors and linguiaphiles.
* It started an RfC which garnered 85% support for adoption.
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Adopt_OmegaWiki

Even if the current OW code is not used at all for a future Wiktionary
update -- and this idea was proposed and taken seriously by the OW
devs -- their community of contributors should be part of discussions
about how to solve the Wiktionary problem that they were the first to
dedicate themselves to.

Regards,
Sam.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikidata-l] Meeting about the support of Wiktionary in Wikidata

2013-08-09 Thread Denny Vrandečić
We are keeping notes on Etherpad
http://epl.wikimedia.org/p/WiktionaryAndWikidata

If connectivity allows, you can also try to connect via Hangout or Skype or
IRC. Ping aude or me on #wikimedia-wikidata on IRC.

Cheers,
Denny




2013/8/10 Samuel Klein meta...@gmail.com

 Hello,

  On Fri, Aug 9, 2013 at 6:13 PM, JP Béland lebo.bel...@gmail.com wrote:
  I agree. We also need to include the Omegawiki community.

 Agreed.

 On Fri, Aug 9, 2013 at 12:22 PM, Laura Hale la...@fanhistory.com wrote:
  Why? The question of moving them into the WMF fold was pretty much no,
  because the project has an overlapping purpose with Wiktionary,

 This is not actually the case.
 There was overwhelming community support for adopting Omegawiki - at
 least simply providing hosting.  It stalled because the code needed a
 security and style review, and Kip (the lead developer) was going to
 put some time into that.  The OW editors and dev were very interested
 in finding a way forward that involved Wikidata and led to a combined
 project with a single repository of terms, meanings, definitions and
 translations.

 Recap: The page describing the OmegaWiki project satisfies all of the
 criteria for requesting WMF adoption.
 * It is well-defined on Meta http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Omegawiki
 * It describes an interesting idea clearly aligned with expanding the
 scope of free knowledge
 * It is not a 'competing' project to Wiktionaries; it is an idea that
 grew out of the Wiktionary community, has been developed for years
 alongside it, and shares many active contributors and linguiaphiles.
 * It started an RfC which garnered 85% support for adoption.
 http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Adopt_OmegaWiki

 Even if the current OW code is not used at all for a future Wiktionary
 update -- and this idea was proposed and taken seriously by the OW
 devs -- their community of contributors should be part of discussions
 about how to solve the Wiktionary problem that they were the first to
 dedicate themselves to.

 Regards,
 Sam.

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