Re: [Wikimedia-l] [tangential] Why voting is evil

2013-07-02 Thread Marc A. Pelletier 
On 07/02/2013 11:42 AM, Fred Bauder wrote:
> Well, how would Marx feel?

I'm pretty sure Marx also qualifies as "amusingly naive", for much the
same reasons.  :-)

-- Marc


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [tangential] Why voting is evil

2013-07-02 Thread Fred Bauder 
> On 07/02/2013 11:13 AM, David Gerard wrote:
>> He claims this is how he did the Pirate Party, so you appear to be
>> claiming that a successful minor political party may work in practice
>> but can't possibly work in theory.
>
> I suppose.  :-)  I'm surprised it did work; if it actually did it this
> way.  That said, I'm not familiar enough with how a political party
> works to estimate how that would have impacted this kind of organization.
>
> What we are, ultimately, is a commons.  Without a process by which we
> /can/ limit what others can do (something he advocates against) we are
> doomed to the tragedy others have written about more eloquently than I
> can.
>
> In other words, while voting may not be the best way to manage a common
> garden, the ability to prevent someone from salting the ground -- no
> matter how convinced they are that this will make for better tasting
> vegetables -- is required.  I'm surprised something along those lines
> doesn't apply to a political party (where, for instance image, is an
> important shared resource.  What would the Pirate Party have done if
> someone had started to bomb busses in their name without some mechanism
> of exclusion or a process to decide whether that was an apropriate thing
> to do for the party?)
>
> -- Marc

Well, how would Marx feel? in the light of history.

Fred


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [tangential] Why voting is evil

2013-07-02 Thread Marc A. Pelletier 
On 07/02/2013 11:13 AM, David Gerard wrote:
> He claims this is how he did the Pirate Party, so you appear to be
> claiming that a successful minor political party may work in practice
> but can't possibly work in theory.

I suppose.  :-)  I'm surprised it did work; if it actually did it this
way.  That said, I'm not familiar enough with how a political party
works to estimate how that would have impacted this kind of organization.

What we are, ultimately, is a commons.  Without a process by which we
/can/ limit what others can do (something he advocates against) we are
doomed to the tragedy others have written about more eloquently than I can.

In other words, while voting may not be the best way to manage a common
garden, the ability to prevent someone from salting the ground -- no
matter how convinced they are that this will make for better tasting
vegetables -- is required.  I'm surprised something along those lines
doesn't apply to a political party (where, for instance image, is an
important shared resource.  What would the Pirate Party have done if
someone had started to bomb busses in their name without some mechanism
of exclusion or a process to decide whether that was an apropriate thing
to do for the party?)

-- Marc


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [tangential] Why voting is evil

2013-07-02 Thread David Gerard 
On 2 July 2013 16:04, Marc A. Pelletier  wrote:

> That piece is somewhat thought provoking, but amusingly naive.


He claims this is how he did the Pirate Party, so you appear to be
claiming that a successful minor political party may work in practice
but can't possibly work in theory. Or that he's utterly naive about
how they succeeded, but that isn't something one commonly says about
politicians.


- d.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [tangential] Why voting is evil

2013-07-02 Thread Marc A. Pelletier 
On 07/01/2013 06:38 AM, David Gerard wrote:
> tl;dr: voting creates winners and losers, and losers are unhappy and 
> disengage.

That piece is somewhat thought provoking, but amusingly naive.  It
starts from the presumption that individual decisions cannot impact the
movement or the collective objectives negatively, or that there isn't a
collective work whose nature is altered by individual action.

In other words, it advocates empowerment by presuming that individuals
cannot make a difference.  :-)

-- Marc


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [tangential] Why voting is evil

2013-07-01 Thread Thomas Morton 
>
> tl;dr: voting creates winners and losers, and losers are unhappy and
> disengage.
>

We see this effect anyway. Correlation does not imply causation. :)

Tom
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [tangential] Why voting is evil

2013-07-01 Thread Fred Bauder 
> Rick Falkvinge has been writing a book, "Swarmwise", on how the Pirate
> Party organised. He's been posting it a chapter at a time to his blog.
>
> You know how Wikipedia/Wikimedia has (or had) the meme that "voting is
> evil"? This sets out why.
>
>
> http://falkvinge.net/2013/07/01/swarmwise-the-tactical-manual-to-changing-the-world-chapter-six/
>
> tl;dr: voting creates winners and losers, and losers are unhappy and
> disengage.
>
>
> - d.

And what is the difference when any Wikipedian with good sense avoids
participation in any policy discussion unless there is massive consensus.
Practical experience with anarchic decision-making shows that aggressive
idiots rule.

Fred


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [tangential] Why voting is evil

2013-07-01 Thread Federico Leva (Nemo) 

David Gerard, 01/07/2013 12:38:

tl;dr: voting creates winners and losers, and losers are unhappy and disengage.


Right; to be added to the list of reasons why ranked voting like Schulze 
was better than the last antagonistic support/oppose for WMF board 
elections (which also adds incentives to oppose a lot).


Nemo

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[Wikimedia-l] [tangential] Why voting is evil

2013-07-01 Thread David Gerard 
Rick Falkvinge has been writing a book, "Swarmwise", on how the Pirate
Party organised. He's been posting it a chapter at a time to his blog.

You know how Wikipedia/Wikimedia has (or had) the meme that "voting is
evil"? This sets out why.

   
http://falkvinge.net/2013/07/01/swarmwise-the-tactical-manual-to-changing-the-world-chapter-six/

tl;dr: voting creates winners and losers, and losers are unhappy and disengage.


- d.

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