Re: [Wikimedia-l] A proposal towards a multilingual Wikipedia

2013-08-23 Thread Denny Vrandečić
Using a rather simple pair like Afrikaans - Dutch or a heavily researched
one like English - Spanish would be giving us a wrong impression of how
this will scale. We should at least add a few random pairs like Yoruba -
Gujarati or Kazakh - Lombard. Most of our 67,000 language pairs that we
will have to cover will fall in the latter group, not in the first two.


2013/8/23 David Cuenca dacu...@gmail.com

 On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 5:31 PM, Samuel Klein meta...@gmail.com wrote:

 
   As with so many things, it will be hard to assess cost/benefits without
   making some effort. A safe bet could be to try with an existing pair or
   develop a pair with an estimated high demand.
 
  Is there a pair where some work has already been done?
 

 For Apertium there are quite a few already done:
 http://wiki.apertium.org/wiki/Main_Page

 Regarding new language pairs, no idea if the priorities for Wikipedia would
 be the same as the priorities the Apertium community has.
 It might be worth considering which languages to prioritize and how to
 measure success or lack thereof.

 Cheers,
 Micru
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] A proposal towards a multilingual Wikipedia

2013-08-23 Thread David Cuenca
Something to take into account should be the efficiency a language pair can
have. For instance, how many articles there are available, how easy is to
translate articles, how many bilingual speakers there are for a given pair,
and perhaps also, how much it can help to harmonize relationships between
speakers of both languages.

There seems to be much more demand for languages that are geographically
closer. While speakers of Kazakh might have little interest in reading the
Lombard or Gujarati wikipedias, they might be more inclined to visit the
Tatar wikipedia, which by the way is closely related and much easier to
translate.

So no, I don't think we should base our decisions on the theoretical number
of pairs that can exist, but on the ones that offer the best efficiency.

Cheers,
Micru


On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 4:45 AM, Denny Vrandečić 
denny.vrande...@wikimedia.de wrote:

 Using a rather simple pair like Afrikaans - Dutch or a heavily researched
 one like English - Spanish would be giving us a wrong impression of how
 this will scale. We should at least add a few random pairs like Yoruba -
 Gujarati or Kazakh - Lombard. Most of our 67,000 language pairs that we
 will have to cover will fall in the latter group, not in the first two.


 2013/8/23 David Cuenca dacu...@gmail.com

  On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 5:31 PM, Samuel Klein meta...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  
As with so many things, it will be hard to assess cost/benefits
 without
making some effort. A safe bet could be to try with an existing pair
 or
develop a pair with an estimated high demand.
  
   Is there a pair where some work has already been done?
  
 
  For Apertium there are quite a few already done:
  http://wiki.apertium.org/wiki/Main_Page
 
  Regarding new language pairs, no idea if the priorities for Wikipedia
 would
  be the same as the priorities the Apertium community has.
  It might be worth considering which languages to prioritize and how to
  measure success or lack thereof.
 
  Cheers,
  Micru
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] A proposal towards a multilingual Wikipedia

2013-08-22 Thread David Cuenca
On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 5:31 PM, Samuel Klein meta...@gmail.com wrote:


  As with so many things, it will be hard to assess cost/benefits without
  making some effort. A safe bet could be to try with an existing pair or
  develop a pair with an estimated high demand.

 Is there a pair where some work has already been done?


For Apertium there are quite a few already done:
http://wiki.apertium.org/wiki/Main_Page

Regarding new language pairs, no idea if the priorities for Wikipedia would
be the same as the priorities the Apertium community has.
It might be worth considering which languages to prioritize and how to
measure success or lack thereof.

Cheers,
Micru
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] A proposal towards a multilingual Wikipedia

2013-08-19 Thread Samuel Klein
On Tue, Aug 13, 2013 at 1:57 PM, David Cuenca dacu...@gmail.com wrote:

 Predicted demographics: 95% women from the global south :)

(-:

 I am personally hesitant about automatic translations, and whether we can
 achieve the coverage (in language pairs) and the quality (of Wikipedia).
 But that is only my opinion. A hybrid approach, if we can support it and
 build it, would obviously be the safest bet, as both endeavors are rather
 risky. I see a lot of possible space for a hybrid system, as you describe
 it.

 +1000

I have a lot of love for this idea in general, and a hybrid approach
to this part; thank you for articulating it so clearly.

 One advantage of my proposal is that it's cost is rather small. For
 supporting translation I haven't seen yet a sufficiently sketched proposal
 that allows to estimate the potential cost and potential benefit.

 As with so many things, it will be hard to assess cost/benefits without
 making some effort. A safe bet could be to try with an existing pair or
 develop a pair with an estimated high demand.

Is there a pair where some work has already been done?

SJ

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] A proposal towards a multilingual Wikipedia

2013-08-13 Thread David Cuenca
On Wed, Aug 7, 2013 at 8:50 AM, Denny Vrandečić 
denny.vrande...@wikimedia.de wrote:

 [...] It might lead to a glorious future, where we really create an open
 source system that allows
 everyone to write in every language and express a wide range of human
 thought.


As much as I love this proposal, I have some some reservations, namely:
http://www.xkcd.com/191/

So if there are already complains about the skewed participation in the
Wikipedia, this would be the right step to skew it even further. This is
not necessarily bad (maybe it could even work without patrolling), however
instead of stating allow everyone to write in every language, I think it
would be more realistic to state allow everyone, who wants to take the
extra effort in participating in such a project, to write in every
language.
Predicted demographics: 95% women from the global south :)


 I am personally hesitant about automatic translations, and whether we can
 achieve the coverage (in language pairs) and the quality (of Wikipedia).
 But that is only my opinion. A hybrid approach, if we can support it and
 build it, would obviously be the safest bet, as both endeavors are rather
 risky. I see a lot of possible space for a hybrid system, as you describe
 it.


+1000



 One advantage of my proposal is that it's cost is rather small. For
 supporting translation I haven't seen yet a sufficiently sketched proposal
 that allows to estimate the potential cost and potential benefit.


As with so many things, it will be hard to assess cost/benefits without
making some effort. A safe bet could be to try with an existing pair or
develop a pair with an estimated high demand. If that works, escalate,
otherwise stop there.

Micru
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] A proposal towards a multilingual Wikipedia

2013-08-07 Thread Jane Darnell
Love it!

2013/8/7, Denny Vrandečić denny.vrande...@wikimedia.de:
 I have been thinking about this for a while, and now finally managed to
 write it down as a proposal. Details are on meta on the following link,
 below is the intro to the proposal:

 http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/A_proposal_towards_a_multilingual_Wikipedia

 I tried to anticipate some possible questions and provide answers on the
 page. Besides that, I obviously hope that Wikimania could provide a place
 to start this conversation. And yes, I am aware that the proposal would
 lead to a very restrictive solution, but imagine what good it already could
 achieve! And since it is not meant to replace anything, but enrich our
 current projects... well, read for yourself.

 Cheers,
 Denny


 Wikipedia provides knowledge in more than 200 languages. Whereas a small
 number of languages are fortunate enough to have a large Wikipedia, many of
 the language editions are far away from providing a comprehensive
 encyclopedia by any measure. There are several approaches towards closing
 this gap, mostly focusing on increasing the number of contributors to the
 small language editions or to improve the provision of automatic or
 semi-automatic translations of articles. Both are viable. In the following
 we present a proposal for a different approach, which is based on the idea
 of multilingual Wikipedia.

 Imagine a small extension to the template system, where a template call
 like *{{F12}}* would not be expanded by a call to the template
 Template:F12, but rather to Template:F12/en, i.e. the template name with
 the selected language code of the reader of the page. A template call such
 as *{{F12:Q64|Q5519|Q183}}* can be expanded by Template:F12/en into *“Berlin
 is the capital of Germany.”* and by Template:F12/de into *“Berlin ist die
 Hauptstadt Deutschlands.”* (in the example, the template parameters Q5119,
 Q64 and Q183 refer to the Wikidata items for capital, Berlin and Germany
 respectively, which the templates query for the label in the respective
 language). Sentence by sentence could be created in order to provide for a
 simple article.

 That wiki would consist of *content*, i.e. the article pages, possibly just
 a simple series of template calls, and *frames*, i.e. the templates that
 lexicalize the parameters of a given template call into a sentence (Note
 that “sentence” here should not be considered literally. It could be a
 table, an image, anything). The implementation of the frames can be done in
 normal wiki template syntax, in Lua, in a novel mechanism, or a mix of
 these. This would be up to the communities creating them.

 Read the rest here:
 http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/A_proposal_towards_a_multilingual_Wikipedia

 --
 Project director Wikidata
 Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. | Obentrautstr. 72 | 10963 Berlin
 Tel. +49-30-219 158 26-0 | http://wikimedia.de

 Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V.
 Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter
 der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für
 Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] A proposal towards a multilingual Wikipedia

2013-08-07 Thread Emilio J . Rodríguez-Posada
This may work very fine for little stubs about repetitive stuff, like the
introductions of cities (location, population, foundation date, country,
etc). But, how will that work for the rest of sections of Berlin (history,
geography, politics...)? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin


2013/8/7 Denny Vrandečić denny.vrande...@wikimedia.de

 I have been thinking about this for a while, and now finally managed to
 write it down as a proposal. Details are on meta on the following link,
 below is the intro to the proposal:

 
 http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/A_proposal_towards_a_multilingual_Wikipedia
 

 I tried to anticipate some possible questions and provide answers on the
 page. Besides that, I obviously hope that Wikimania could provide a place
 to start this conversation. And yes, I am aware that the proposal would
 lead to a very restrictive solution, but imagine what good it already could
 achieve! And since it is not meant to replace anything, but enrich our
 current projects... well, read for yourself.

 Cheers,
 Denny


 Wikipedia provides knowledge in more than 200 languages. Whereas a small
 number of languages are fortunate enough to have a large Wikipedia, many of
 the language editions are far away from providing a comprehensive
 encyclopedia by any measure. There are several approaches towards closing
 this gap, mostly focusing on increasing the number of contributors to the
 small language editions or to improve the provision of automatic or
 semi-automatic translations of articles. Both are viable. In the following
 we present a proposal for a different approach, which is based on the idea
 of multilingual Wikipedia.

 Imagine a small extension to the template system, where a template call
 like *{{F12}}* would not be expanded by a call to the template
 Template:F12, but rather to Template:F12/en, i.e. the template name with
 the selected language code of the reader of the page. A template call such
 as *{{F12:Q64|Q5519|Q183}}* can be expanded by Template:F12/en into
 *“Berlin
 is the capital of Germany.”* and by Template:F12/de into *“Berlin ist die
 Hauptstadt Deutschlands.”* (in the example, the template parameters Q5119,
 Q64 and Q183 refer to the Wikidata items for capital, Berlin and Germany
 respectively, which the templates query for the label in the respective
 language). Sentence by sentence could be created in order to provide for a
 simple article.

 That wiki would consist of *content*, i.e. the article pages, possibly just
 a simple series of template calls, and *frames*, i.e. the templates that
 lexicalize the parameters of a given template call into a sentence (Note
 that “sentence” here should not be considered literally. It could be a
 table, an image, anything). The implementation of the frames can be done in
 normal wiki template syntax, in Lua, in a novel mechanism, or a mix of
 these. This would be up to the communities creating them.

 Read the rest here:
 
 http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/A_proposal_towards_a_multilingual_Wikipedia
 

 --
 Project director Wikidata
 Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. | Obentrautstr. 72 | 10963 Berlin
 Tel. +49-30-219 158 26-0 | http://wikimedia.de

 Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V.
 Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter
 der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für
 Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] A proposal towards a multilingual Wikipedia

2013-08-07 Thread Denny Vrandečić
I thought so myself, but then I did a bit of research to figure out the
state of natural language generation. I could not find easily a current
state of the art, but I found this list of examples on the KPML website
that is linked from the proposal, they are from 1998:


http://www.fb10.uni-bremen.de/anglistik/langpro/kpml/genbank/R3b12-English/Docu/ENGLISH-reuters-mismatches-19981209/index.html


http://www.fb10.uni-bremen.de/anglistik/langpro/kpml/genbank/R3b12-English/Docu/ENGLISH-nigel-exerciseset-mismatches-19981209/index.html


There are examples like:
Analysts say that the private position is far more sensible, because it
leads to much needed capital for European computer and semiconductor
companies, while giving them a toehold in the lucrative Japanese domestic
market.

Because of its importance, any reaction of the sixty people whose
televisions are attached to the system is monitored closely.

Since they managed it 15 years ago, I believe we can do it too. At least
try and fail.
Even if the complexity of our sentences does not raise that high, it seems
to me that there is plenty of content that would be beneficial to make
available.

Cheers,
Denny





2013/8/7 Emilio J. Rodríguez-Posada emi...@gmail.com

 This may work very fine for little stubs about repetitive stuff, like the
 introductions of cities (location, population, foundation date, country,
 etc). But, how will that work for the rest of sections of Berlin (history,
 geography, politics...)? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin


 2013/8/7 Denny Vrandečić denny.vrande...@wikimedia.de

  I have been thinking about this for a while, and now finally managed to
  write it down as a proposal. Details are on meta on the following link,
  below is the intro to the proposal:
 
  
 
 http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/A_proposal_towards_a_multilingual_Wikipedia
  
 
  I tried to anticipate some possible questions and provide answers on the
  page. Besides that, I obviously hope that Wikimania could provide a place
  to start this conversation. And yes, I am aware that the proposal would
  lead to a very restrictive solution, but imagine what good it already
 could
  achieve! And since it is not meant to replace anything, but enrich our
  current projects... well, read for yourself.
 
  Cheers,
  Denny
 
 
  Wikipedia provides knowledge in more than 200 languages. Whereas a small
  number of languages are fortunate enough to have a large Wikipedia, many
 of
  the language editions are far away from providing a comprehensive
  encyclopedia by any measure. There are several approaches towards closing
  this gap, mostly focusing on increasing the number of contributors to the
  small language editions or to improve the provision of automatic or
  semi-automatic translations of articles. Both are viable. In the
 following
  we present a proposal for a different approach, which is based on the
 idea
  of multilingual Wikipedia.
 
  Imagine a small extension to the template system, where a template call
  like *{{F12}}* would not be expanded by a call to the template
  Template:F12, but rather to Template:F12/en, i.e. the template name with
  the selected language code of the reader of the page. A template call
 such
  as *{{F12:Q64|Q5519|Q183}}* can be expanded by Template:F12/en into
  *“Berlin
  is the capital of Germany.”* and by Template:F12/de into *“Berlin ist die
  Hauptstadt Deutschlands.”* (in the example, the template parameters
 Q5119,
  Q64 and Q183 refer to the Wikidata items for capital, Berlin and Germany
  respectively, which the templates query for the label in the respective
  language). Sentence by sentence could be created in order to provide for
 a
  simple article.
 
  That wiki would consist of *content*, i.e. the article pages, possibly
 just
  a simple series of template calls, and *frames*, i.e. the templates that
  lexicalize the parameters of a given template call into a sentence (Note
  that “sentence” here should not be considered literally. It could be a
  table, an image, anything). The implementation of the frames can be done
 in
  normal wiki template syntax, in Lua, in a novel mechanism, or a mix of
  these. This would be up to the communities creating them.
 
  Read the rest here:
  
 
 http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/A_proposal_towards_a_multilingual_Wikipedia
  
 
  --
  Project director Wikidata
  Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. | Obentrautstr. 72 | 10963 Berlin
  Tel. +49-30-219 158 26-0 | http://wikimedia.de
 
  Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V.
  Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg
 unter
  der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für
  Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] A proposal towards a multilingual Wikipedia

2013-08-07 Thread Anders Wennersten
Thanks for sharing your very interesting ideas. While I am not fully 
support your idea of implementation, I share your basic view of the need 
and think some of the concepts you introduce has a very high potential 
to better utilize the power of us having many versions.


I have put in my feedback on the talkpage and hope there will be a 
possibility to evolve this concept further in some type of workgroup. I 
also see an interesting relation to the talk of machine translation 
where I believe we can do a lot very quickly if we limit the vocabulary 
to be included in such a tool


Anders


Denny Vrandečić skrev 2013-08-07 02:20:

I have been thinking about this for a while, and now finally managed to
write it down as a proposal. Details are on meta on the following link,
below is the intro to the proposal:

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/A_proposal_towards_a_multilingual_Wikipedia

I tried to anticipate some possible questions and provide answers on the
page. Besides that, I obviously hope that Wikimania could provide a place
to start this conversation. And yes, I am aware that the proposal would
lead to a very restrictive solution, but imagine what good it already could
achieve! And since it is not meant to replace anything, but enrich our
current projects... well, read for yourself.

Cheers,
Denny


Wikipedia provides knowledge in more than 200 languages. Whereas a small
number of languages are fortunate enough to have a large Wikipedia, many of
the language editions are far away from providing a comprehensive
encyclopedia by any measure. There are several approaches towards closing
this gap, mostly focusing on increasing the number of contributors to the
small language editions or to improve the provision of automatic or
semi-automatic translations of articles. Both are viable. In the following
we present a proposal for a different approach, which is based on the idea
of multilingual Wikipedia.

Imagine a small extension to the template system, where a template call
like *{{F12}}* would not be expanded by a call to the template
Template:F12, but rather to Template:F12/en, i.e. the template name with
the selected language code of the reader of the page. A template call such
as *{{F12:Q64|Q5519|Q183}}* can be expanded by Template:F12/en into *“Berlin
is the capital of Germany.”* and by Template:F12/de into *“Berlin ist die
Hauptstadt Deutschlands.”* (in the example, the template parameters Q5119,
Q64 and Q183 refer to the Wikidata items for capital, Berlin and Germany
respectively, which the templates query for the label in the respective
language). Sentence by sentence could be created in order to provide for a
simple article.

That wiki would consist of *content*, i.e. the article pages, possibly just
a simple series of template calls, and *frames*, i.e. the templates that
lexicalize the parameters of a given template call into a sentence (Note
that “sentence” here should not be considered literally. It could be a
table, an image, anything). The implementation of the frames can be done in
normal wiki template syntax, in Lua, in a novel mechanism, or a mix of
these. This would be up to the communities creating them.

Read the rest here:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/A_proposal_towards_a_multilingual_Wikipedia




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Re: [Wikimedia-l] A proposal towards a multilingual Wikipedia

2013-08-07 Thread Emilio J . Rodríguez-Posada
Most times the best approach is a compilation of several approaches.

Perhaps we can use the Denny system for the little introduction of articles
(for example: geography, biographies) and optional automatic translation
for the rest of the article.

I mean, if you follow a red link in a little Wikipedia, it loads the i18n
template + wikidata bits, so you have a brief summary about the topic. Then
you can save that live generated stub, and expand it (using
autotraslation from other WIkipedia).


2013/8/7 Anders Wennersten m...@anderswennersten.se

 Thanks for sharing your very interesting ideas. While I am not fully
 support your idea of implementation, I share your basic view of the need
 and think some of the concepts you introduce has a very high potential to
 better utilize the power of us having many versions.

 I have put in my feedback on the talkpage and hope there will be a
 possibility to evolve this concept further in some type of workgroup. I
 also see an interesting relation to the talk of machine translation where I
 believe we can do a lot very quickly if we limit the vocabulary to be
 included in such a tool

 Anders


 Denny Vrandečić skrev 2013-08-07 02:20:

  I have been thinking about this for a while, and now finally managed to
 write it down as a proposal. Details are on meta on the following link,
 below is the intro to the proposal:

 http://meta.wikimedia.org/**wiki/A_proposal_towards_a_**
 multilingual_Wikipediahttp://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/A_proposal_towards_a_multilingual_Wikipedia
 

 I tried to anticipate some possible questions and provide answers on the
 page. Besides that, I obviously hope that Wikimania could provide a place
 to start this conversation. And yes, I am aware that the proposal would
 lead to a very restrictive solution, but imagine what good it already
 could
 achieve! And since it is not meant to replace anything, but enrich our
 current projects... well, read for yourself.

 Cheers,
 Denny


 Wikipedia provides knowledge in more than 200 languages. Whereas a small
 number of languages are fortunate enough to have a large Wikipedia, many
 of
 the language editions are far away from providing a comprehensive
 encyclopedia by any measure. There are several approaches towards closing
 this gap, mostly focusing on increasing the number of contributors to the
 small language editions or to improve the provision of automatic or
 semi-automatic translations of articles. Both are viable. In the following
 we present a proposal for a different approach, which is based on the idea
 of multilingual Wikipedia.

 Imagine a small extension to the template system, where a template call
 like *{{F12}}* would not be expanded by a call to the template
 Template:F12, but rather to Template:F12/en, i.e. the template name with
 the selected language code of the reader of the page. A template call such
 as *{{F12:Q64|Q5519|Q183}}* can be expanded by Template:F12/en into
 *“Berlin
 is the capital of Germany.”* and by Template:F12/de into *“Berlin ist die
 Hauptstadt Deutschlands.”* (in the example, the template parameters Q5119,
 Q64 and Q183 refer to the Wikidata items for capital, Berlin and Germany
 respectively, which the templates query for the label in the respective
 language). Sentence by sentence could be created in order to provide for a
 simple article.

 That wiki would consist of *content*, i.e. the article pages, possibly
 just
 a simple series of template calls, and *frames*, i.e. the templates that
 lexicalize the parameters of a given template call into a sentence (Note
 that “sentence” here should not be considered literally. It could be a
 table, an image, anything). The implementation of the frames can be done
 in
 normal wiki template syntax, in Lua, in a novel mechanism, or a mix of
 these. This would be up to the communities creating them.

 Read the rest here:
 http://meta.wikimedia.org/**wiki/A_proposal_towards_a_**
 multilingual_Wikipediahttp://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/A_proposal_towards_a_multilingual_Wikipedia
 



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Re: [Wikimedia-l] A proposal towards a multilingual Wikipedia

2013-08-07 Thread Denny Vrandečić
Thank you, Anders. Yes, I published the idea in order to garner feedback
and further evolve it. It is by no means ready-perfect-finished, it is
rather really just a first draft. So suggestions, constructive critique,
and improvements are obviously extremely welcome. --


2013/8/7 Anders Wennersten m...@anderswennersten.se

 Thanks for sharing your very interesting ideas. While I am not fully
 support your idea of implementation, I share your basic view of the need
 and think some of the concepts you introduce has a very high potential to
 better utilize the power of us having many versions.

 I have put in my feedback on the talkpage and hope there will be a
 possibility to evolve this concept further in some type of workgroup. I
 also see an interesting relation to the talk of machine translation where I
 believe we can do a lot very quickly if we limit the vocabulary to be
 included in such a tool

 Anders


 Denny Vrandečić skrev 2013-08-07 02:20:

 I have been thinking about this for a while, and now finally managed to
 write it down as a proposal. Details are on meta on the following link,
 below is the intro to the proposal:

 http://meta.wikimedia.org/**wiki/A_proposal_towards_a_**
 multilingual_Wikipediahttp://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/A_proposal_towards_a_multilingual_Wikipedia
 

 I tried to anticipate some possible questions and provide answers on the
 page. Besides that, I obviously hope that Wikimania could provide a place
 to start this conversation. And yes, I am aware that the proposal would
 lead to a very restrictive solution, but imagine what good it already
 could
 achieve! And since it is not meant to replace anything, but enrich our
 current projects... well, read for yourself.

 Cheers,
 Denny


 Wikipedia provides knowledge in more than 200 languages. Whereas a small
 number of languages are fortunate enough to have a large Wikipedia, many
 of
 the language editions are far away from providing a comprehensive
 encyclopedia by any measure. There are several approaches towards closing
 this gap, mostly focusing on increasing the number of contributors to the
 small language editions or to improve the provision of automatic or
 semi-automatic translations of articles. Both are viable. In the following
 we present a proposal for a different approach, which is based on the idea
 of multilingual Wikipedia.

 Imagine a small extension to the template system, where a template call
 like *{{F12}}* would not be expanded by a call to the template

 Template:F12, but rather to Template:F12/en, i.e. the template name with
 the selected language code of the reader of the page. A template call such
 as *{{F12:Q64|Q5519|Q183}}* can be expanded by Template:F12/en into
 *“Berlin
 is the capital of Germany.”* and by Template:F12/de into *“Berlin ist die
 Hauptstadt Deutschlands.”* (in the example, the template parameters Q5119,

 Q64 and Q183 refer to the Wikidata items for capital, Berlin and Germany
 respectively, which the templates query for the label in the respective
 language). Sentence by sentence could be created in order to provide for a
 simple article.

 That wiki would consist of *content*, i.e. the article pages, possibly
 just
 a simple series of template calls, and *frames*, i.e. the templates that

 lexicalize the parameters of a given template call into a sentence (Note
 that “sentence” here should not be considered literally. It could be a
 table, an image, anything). The implementation of the frames can be done
 in
 normal wiki template syntax, in Lua, in a novel mechanism, or a mix of
 these. This would be up to the communities creating them.

 Read the rest here:
 http://meta.wikimedia.org/**wiki/A_proposal_towards_a_**
 multilingual_Wikipediahttp://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/A_proposal_towards_a_multilingual_Wikipedia
 



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-- 
Project director Wikidata
Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. | Obentrautstr. 72 | 10963 Berlin
Tel. +49-30-219 158 26-0 | http://wikimedia.de

Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V.
Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter
der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für
Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] A proposal towards a multilingual Wikipedia

2013-08-07 Thread Denny Vrandečić
Obviously, this system should be only used as far as it carries. I don't
know how far it might carry us - it might fail miserably, and not get
beyond the Rome is a city. Rome is in Italy. Rome is known for The
Colosseum, coffee and Vatican City (state). stage. It might lead to a
glorious future, where we really create an open source system that allows
everyone to write in every language and express a wide range of human
thought.

I am personally hesitant about automatic translations, and whether we can
achieve the coverage (in language pairs) and the quality (of Wikipedia).
But that is only my opinion. A hybrid approach, if we can support it and
build it, would obviously be the safest bet, as both endeavors are rather
risky. I see a lot of possible space for a hybrid system, as you describe
it.

One advantage of my proposal is that it's cost is rather small. For
supporting translation I haven't seen yet a sufficiently sketched proposal
that allows to estimate the potential cost and potential benefit.

Cheers,
Denny






2013/8/7 Emilio J. Rodríguez-Posada emi...@gmail.com

 Most times the best approach is a compilation of several approaches.

 Perhaps we can use the Denny system for the little introduction of articles
 (for example: geography, biographies) and optional automatic translation
 for the rest of the article.

 I mean, if you follow a red link in a little Wikipedia, it loads the i18n
 template + wikidata bits, so you have a brief summary about the topic. Then
 you can save that live generated stub, and expand it (using
 autotraslation from other WIkipedia).


 2013/8/7 Anders Wennersten m...@anderswennersten.se

  Thanks for sharing your very interesting ideas. While I am not fully
  support your idea of implementation, I share your basic view of the need
  and think some of the concepts you introduce has a very high potential to
  better utilize the power of us having many versions.
 
  I have put in my feedback on the talkpage and hope there will be a
  possibility to evolve this concept further in some type of workgroup. I
  also see an interesting relation to the talk of machine translation
 where I
  believe we can do a lot very quickly if we limit the vocabulary to be
  included in such a tool
 
  Anders
 
 
  Denny Vrandečić skrev 2013-08-07 02:20:
 
   I have been thinking about this for a while, and now finally managed to
  write it down as a proposal. Details are on meta on the following link,
  below is the intro to the proposal:
 
  http://meta.wikimedia.org/**wiki/A_proposal_towards_a_**
  multilingual_Wikipedia
 http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/A_proposal_towards_a_multilingual_Wikipedia
 
  
 
  I tried to anticipate some possible questions and provide answers on the
  page. Besides that, I obviously hope that Wikimania could provide a
 place
  to start this conversation. And yes, I am aware that the proposal would
  lead to a very restrictive solution, but imagine what good it already
  could
  achieve! And since it is not meant to replace anything, but enrich our
  current projects... well, read for yourself.
 
  Cheers,
  Denny
 
 
  Wikipedia provides knowledge in more than 200 languages. Whereas a small
  number of languages are fortunate enough to have a large Wikipedia, many
  of
  the language editions are far away from providing a comprehensive
  encyclopedia by any measure. There are several approaches towards
 closing
  this gap, mostly focusing on increasing the number of contributors to
 the
  small language editions or to improve the provision of automatic or
  semi-automatic translations of articles. Both are viable. In the
 following
  we present a proposal for a different approach, which is based on the
 idea
  of multilingual Wikipedia.
 
  Imagine a small extension to the template system, where a template call
  like *{{F12}}* would not be expanded by a call to the template
  Template:F12, but rather to Template:F12/en, i.e. the template name with
  the selected language code of the reader of the page. A template call
 such
  as *{{F12:Q64|Q5519|Q183}}* can be expanded by Template:F12/en into
  *“Berlin
  is the capital of Germany.”* and by Template:F12/de into *“Berlin ist
 die
  Hauptstadt Deutschlands.”* (in the example, the template parameters
 Q5119,
  Q64 and Q183 refer to the Wikidata items for capital, Berlin and Germany
  respectively, which the templates query for the label in the respective
  language). Sentence by sentence could be created in order to provide
 for a
  simple article.
 
  That wiki would consist of *content*, i.e. the article pages, possibly
  just
  a simple series of template calls, and *frames*, i.e. the templates that
  lexicalize the parameters of a given template call into a sentence (Note
  that “sentence” here should not be considered literally. It could be a
  table, an image, anything). The implementation of the frames can be done
  in
  normal wiki template syntax, in Lua, in a novel mechanism, or a mix of
  these. This 

[Wikimedia-l] A proposal towards a multilingual Wikipedia

2013-08-06 Thread Denny Vrandečić
I have been thinking about this for a while, and now finally managed to
write it down as a proposal. Details are on meta on the following link,
below is the intro to the proposal:

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/A_proposal_towards_a_multilingual_Wikipedia

I tried to anticipate some possible questions and provide answers on the
page. Besides that, I obviously hope that Wikimania could provide a place
to start this conversation. And yes, I am aware that the proposal would
lead to a very restrictive solution, but imagine what good it already could
achieve! And since it is not meant to replace anything, but enrich our
current projects... well, read for yourself.

Cheers,
Denny


Wikipedia provides knowledge in more than 200 languages. Whereas a small
number of languages are fortunate enough to have a large Wikipedia, many of
the language editions are far away from providing a comprehensive
encyclopedia by any measure. There are several approaches towards closing
this gap, mostly focusing on increasing the number of contributors to the
small language editions or to improve the provision of automatic or
semi-automatic translations of articles. Both are viable. In the following
we present a proposal for a different approach, which is based on the idea
of multilingual Wikipedia.

Imagine a small extension to the template system, where a template call
like *{{F12}}* would not be expanded by a call to the template
Template:F12, but rather to Template:F12/en, i.e. the template name with
the selected language code of the reader of the page. A template call such
as *{{F12:Q64|Q5519|Q183}}* can be expanded by Template:F12/en into *“Berlin
is the capital of Germany.”* and by Template:F12/de into *“Berlin ist die
Hauptstadt Deutschlands.”* (in the example, the template parameters Q5119,
Q64 and Q183 refer to the Wikidata items for capital, Berlin and Germany
respectively, which the templates query for the label in the respective
language). Sentence by sentence could be created in order to provide for a
simple article.

That wiki would consist of *content*, i.e. the article pages, possibly just
a simple series of template calls, and *frames*, i.e. the templates that
lexicalize the parameters of a given template call into a sentence (Note
that “sentence” here should not be considered literally. It could be a
table, an image, anything). The implementation of the frames can be done in
normal wiki template syntax, in Lua, in a novel mechanism, or a mix of
these. This would be up to the communities creating them.

Read the rest here:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/A_proposal_towards_a_multilingual_Wikipedia

-- 
Project director Wikidata
Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. | Obentrautstr. 72 | 10963 Berlin
Tel. +49-30-219 158 26-0 | http://wikimedia.de

Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V.
Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter
der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für
Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985.
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