Re: [Wikimedia-l] AFD survey
Link does not work. Cheers, Peter -Original Message- From: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Nicole Askin Sent: 16 July 2014 04:00 AM To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: [Wikimedia-l] AFD survey We are looking for Wikipedians to participate in a survey. The survey is designed to help us understand group decision-making and Wikipedia’s Articles for Deletion (AfD) process. The research is being carried out under the terms of the University of Western Ontario - Code of Conduct; it will not lead to any sales follow up; no individual (or organization) will be identified in our reporting. If you are an adult Wikipedian, we would be grateful if you could spare approximately 10-15 minutes to complete this survey. As a token of our gratitude, for each completed survey we will make a charitable donation of CAD$2 to the Wikimedia Foundation. If you have any questions, please contact Lu Xiao at lxiao24 (at) uwo.ca. To start the survey please click ONCE on the link below: http:// fluidsurveys.com/s/WikipediaSurvey/ Please try to complete the survey by August 1, 2014. Thank you very much for your time, we really value your input. Sincerely, UWO Wikipedia Research Team ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4716 / Virus Database: 3986/7858 - Release Date: 07/15/14 ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] AFD survey
the http:// part has been left out. Correct link is http://fluidsurveys.com/s/WikipediaSurvey/ Regards Sir48/Thyge 2014-07-16 8:29 GMT+02:00 Peter Southwood peter.southw...@telkomsa.net: Link does not work. Cheers, Peter -Original Message- From: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Nicole Askin Sent: 16 July 2014 04:00 AM To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: [Wikimedia-l] AFD survey We are looking for Wikipedians to participate in a survey. The survey is designed to help us understand group decision-making and Wikipedia’s Articles for Deletion (AfD) process. The research is being carried out under the terms of the University of Western Ontario - Code of Conduct; it will not lead to any sales follow up; no individual (or organization) will be identified in our reporting. If you are an adult Wikipedian, we would be grateful if you could spare approximately 10-15 minutes to complete this survey. As a token of our gratitude, for each completed survey we will make a charitable donation of CAD$2 to the Wikimedia Foundation. If you have any questions, please contact Lu Xiao at lxiao24 (at) uwo.ca. To start the survey please click ONCE on the link below: http:// fluidsurveys.com/s/WikipediaSurvey/ Please try to complete the survey by August 1, 2014. Thank you very much for your time, we really value your input. Sincerely, UWO Wikipedia Research Team ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4716 / Virus Database: 3986/7858 - Release Date: 07/15/14 ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] AFD survey
Dear UWO Wikipedia Research Team, Your survey does not appear to have been approved by the Wikimedia Research Committee (RCom). You can find contact details at https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research_Committee. Due to concerns with regard to privacy, such as recording their IP address against statements of their Wikipedia activities, Wikimedians are not encouraged to participate in unapproved surveys. I doubt that many Wikipedians would want to separately find and analyse the UWO Code of Conduct to check what is tracked or not, and they would need to do this before opening the fluidsurveys.com website. I note that this website is not apparently owned by the UWO, but is a private site that is unlikely to be legally bound by UWO codes of conduct. Fae On 16/07/2014, Thyge ltl.pri...@gmail.com wrote: the http:// part has been left out. Correct link is http://fluidsurveys.com/s/WikipediaSurvey/ Regards Sir48/Thyge 2014-07-16 8:29 GMT+02:00 Peter Southwood peter.southw...@telkomsa.net: Link does not work. Cheers, Peter -Original Message- From: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Nicole Askin Sent: 16 July 2014 04:00 AM To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: [Wikimedia-l] AFD survey We are looking for Wikipedians to participate in a survey. The survey is designed to help us understand group decision-making and Wikipedia’s Articles for Deletion (AfD) process. The research is being carried out under the terms of the University of Western Ontario - Code of Conduct; it will not lead to any sales follow up; no individual (or organization) will be identified in our reporting. If you are an adult Wikipedian, we would be grateful if you could spare approximately 10-15 minutes to complete this survey. As a token of our gratitude, for each completed survey we will make a charitable donation of CAD$2 to the Wikimedia Foundation. If you have any questions, please contact Lu Xiao at lxiao24 (at) uwo.ca. To start the survey please click ONCE on the link below: http:// fluidsurveys.com/s/WikipediaSurvey/ Please try to complete the survey by August 1, 2014. Thank you very much for your time, we really value your input. Sincerely, UWO Wikipedia Research Team ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4716 / Virus Database: 3986/7858 - Release Date: 07/15/14 ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe -- fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae Personal and confidential, please do not circulate or re-quote. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] AFD survey
Thanks. All questions were generic and about Wikipedia, so I answered with the Italian Wikipedia in mind. Also note that it.wiki is perhaps the only wiki which switched deletions from voting to non-voting: the experiment was already done, you only need to measure and interpret it. :-) See http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2013-January/123334.html I had problems with two questions: * Are you concerned that somebody would change or remove your rationale? Please choose the most applicable response. This question assumes that removing a comment is bad; I would have answered Yes when appropriate per law or policy but there was no such option. * Do you read the rationales in the discussion before making the final decision? This assumes that this is just a matter of personal taste; sometimes policy and process requires it, sometimes not. (For instance in the classic it.wiki deletion process, but certainly also in some specific sub-process triggers on en.wiki and others.) Nemo ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] AFD survey
In Polish Wikipedia there is no voting for deletion for around 3-4 years. There is discussion and then final decission is made by one of admins who regularly maintains the deletion process. 2014-07-16 10:20 GMT+02:00 Federico Leva (Nemo) nemow...@gmail.com: Thanks. All questions were generic and about Wikipedia, so I answered with the Italian Wikipedia in mind. Also note that it.wiki is perhaps the only wiki which switched deletions from voting to non-voting: the experiment was already done, you only need to measure and interpret it. :-) See http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2013-January/123334.html I had problems with two questions: * Are you concerned that somebody would change or remove your rationale? Please choose the most applicable response. This question assumes that removing a comment is bad; I would have answered Yes when appropriate per law or policy but there was no such option. * Do you read the rationales in the discussion before making the final decision? This assumes that this is just a matter of personal taste; sometimes policy and process requires it, sometimes not. (For instance in the classic it.wiki deletion process, but certainly also in some specific sub-process triggers on en.wiki and others.) Nemo ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe -- Tomek Polimerek Ganicz http://pl.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Polimerek http://www.ganicz.pl/poli/ http://www.cbmm.lodz.pl/work.php?id=29title=tomasz-ganicz ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] AFD survey
If the people who have created this survey can fix the problems raised by Fae, I'd be happy to share this with several language Wikipedians in India. I'm sure that at this point nobody would want to be part of it. On Jul 16, 2014 1:54 PM, Tomasz Ganicz polime...@gmail.com wrote: In Polish Wikipedia there is no voting for deletion for around 3-4 years. There is discussion and then final decission is made by one of admins who regularly maintains the deletion process. 2014-07-16 10:20 GMT+02:00 Federico Leva (Nemo) nemow...@gmail.com: Thanks. All questions were generic and about Wikipedia, so I answered with the Italian Wikipedia in mind. Also note that it.wiki is perhaps the only wiki which switched deletions from voting to non-voting: the experiment was already done, you only need to measure and interpret it. :-) See http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2013-January/123334.html I had problems with two questions: * Are you concerned that somebody would change or remove your rationale? Please choose the most applicable response. This question assumes that removing a comment is bad; I would have answered Yes when appropriate per law or policy but there was no such option. * Do you read the rationales in the discussion before making the final decision? This assumes that this is just a matter of personal taste; sometimes policy and process requires it, sometimes not. (For instance in the classic it.wiki deletion process, but certainly also in some specific sub-process triggers on en.wiki and others.) Nemo ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe -- Tomek Polimerek Ganicz http://pl.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Polimerek http://www.ganicz.pl/poli/ http://www.cbmm.lodz.pl/work.php?id=29title=tomasz-ganicz ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] AFD survey
English hasn't used voting for a long time either. AfD discussions are closed based on strength of argument and compliance with policy. On Jul 16, 2014 2:24 AM, Tomasz Ganicz polime...@gmail.com wrote: In Polish Wikipedia there is no voting for deletion for around 3-4 years. There is discussion and then final decission is made by one of admins who regularly maintains the deletion process. 2014-07-16 10:20 GMT+02:00 Federico Leva (Nemo) nemow...@gmail.com: Thanks. All questions were generic and about Wikipedia, so I answered with the Italian Wikipedia in mind. Also note that it.wiki is perhaps the only wiki which switched deletions from voting to non-voting: the experiment was already done, you only need to measure and interpret it. :-) See http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2013-January/123334.html I had problems with two questions: * Are you concerned that somebody would change or remove your rationale? Please choose the most applicable response. This question assumes that removing a comment is bad; I would have answered Yes when appropriate per law or policy but there was no such option. * Do you read the rationales in the discussion before making the final decision? This assumes that this is just a matter of personal taste; sometimes policy and process requires it, sometimes not. (For instance in the classic it.wiki deletion process, but certainly also in some specific sub-process triggers on en.wiki and others.) Nemo ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe -- Tomek Polimerek Ganicz http://pl.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Polimerek http://www.ganicz.pl/poli/ http://www.cbmm.lodz.pl/work.php?id=29title=tomasz-ganicz ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] AFD survey
I would suggest that it doesn't become not a vote merely by not calling it a vote. I note all the closes that count !votes and how the not-voting pattern on a given AFD is frequently brought up at DRV. On 16 July 2014 12:25, Todd Allen toddmal...@gmail.com wrote: English hasn't used voting for a long time either. AfD discussions are closed based on strength of argument and compliance with policy. On Jul 16, 2014 2:24 AM, Tomasz Ganicz polime...@gmail.com wrote: In Polish Wikipedia there is no voting for deletion for around 3-4 years. There is discussion and then final decission is made by one of admins who regularly maintains the deletion process. 2014-07-16 10:20 GMT+02:00 Federico Leva (Nemo) nemow...@gmail.com: Thanks. All questions were generic and about Wikipedia, so I answered with the Italian Wikipedia in mind. Also note that it.wiki is perhaps the only wiki which switched deletions from voting to non-voting: the experiment was already done, you only need to measure and interpret it. :-) See http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2013-January/123334.html I had problems with two questions: * Are you concerned that somebody would change or remove your rationale? Please choose the most applicable response. This question assumes that removing a comment is bad; I would have answered Yes when appropriate per law or policy but there was no such option. * Do you read the rationales in the discussion before making the final decision? This assumes that this is just a matter of personal taste; sometimes policy and process requires it, sometimes not. (For instance in the classic it.wiki deletion process, but certainly also in some specific sub-process triggers on en.wiki and others.) Nemo ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe -- Tomek Polimerek Ganicz http://pl.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Polimerek http://www.ganicz.pl/poli/ http://www.cbmm.lodz.pl/work.php?id=29title=tomasz-ganicz ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] AFD survey
Hello, I feel that this is an unethical research project and I have told the researcher so. We exchanged several emails and were unable to understand each other. I asked them to please have their university ethics board contact me. I asked the researcher about RCOM and other things. This person said they posted to RCOM, but the Meta page states that submissions should receive responses within 1-2 weeks, and yet our messages went unanswered. We have institutional ethics approval, but that doesn't last indefinitely, and so after receiving no response we opted to go ahead. I am not going to share more than this publicly, but in short, I talked with the researcher to the limit of their interest and they feel that they must proceed with the research. Their oversight is at http://www.uwo.ca/research/about/research_offices.html Their RCOM page is at https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:The_Use_of_Rationales_in_Wikipedia_Articles_for_Deletion_Discussions_and_in_Group_Decision_Making My concern here, as with many surveys, is that the researcher greatly values their time and assigns less value to Wikipedia community time, and is comfortable asking for lots of volunteer time on the pretense of helping our community. This kind of research is, in my opinion, not helpful to Wikipedians because the questions make no sense due to having been designed by an outsider, and additionally so many people have these same questions and only want to target our most active and busiest and valuable volunteers. Furthermore there is no compliance here with community values in research. Bad surveys create survey fatigue, in which volunteers are later disinclined to participate in good and useful community-approved research. If anyone sees research problems in the future I am interested in talking about these things. I have been thinking of becoming more involved in supporting RCOM for some time. The basic problem is that practically all researchers assume that the number of highly active Wikipedians is huge, and therefore, they imagine no problem for them to ask for any amount of volunteer time to be diverted from Wikipedia to their personal and private collection of survey data. The reality is that there are not more than hundreds or low thousands of Wikipedians who are active to the extent they imagine. This survey is targeting English AfD, where I imagine there are only low hundreds of at most of continually active participants, and the reality may be much lower participation than that. I asked this researcher to discontinue the survey pending a check on the impact of it on the Wikipedia community. I said this because I feel they are out of compliance with even the soft suggestions in research that are available, and they know this. yours, On Wed, Jul 16, 2014 at 6:53 AM, Srikanth Ramakrishnan srik.r...@wikimedia.in wrote: If the people who have created this survey can fix the problems raised by Fae, I'd be happy to share this with several language Wikipedians in India. I'm sure that at this point nobody would want to be part of it. On Jul 16, 2014 1:54 PM, Tomasz Ganicz polime...@gmail.com wrote: In Polish Wikipedia there is no voting for deletion for around 3-4 years. There is discussion and then final decission is made by one of admins who regularly maintains the deletion process. 2014-07-16 10:20 GMT+02:00 Federico Leva (Nemo) nemow...@gmail.com: Thanks. All questions were generic and about Wikipedia, so I answered with the Italian Wikipedia in mind. Also note that it.wiki is perhaps the only wiki which switched deletions from voting to non-voting: the experiment was already done, you only need to measure and interpret it. :-) See http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2013-January/123334.html I had problems with two questions: * Are you concerned that somebody would change or remove your rationale? Please choose the most applicable response. This question assumes that removing a comment is bad; I would have answered Yes when appropriate per law or policy but there was no such option. * Do you read the rationales in the discussion before making the final decision? This assumes that this is just a matter of personal taste; sometimes policy and process requires it, sometimes not. (For instance in the classic it.wiki deletion process, but certainly also in some specific sub-process triggers on en.wiki and others.) Nemo ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe -- Tomek Polimerek Ganicz http://pl.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Polimerek http://www.ganicz.pl/poli/ http://www.cbmm.lodz.pl/work.php?id=29title=tomasz-ganicz
Re: [Wikimedia-l] AFD survey
David Gerard, 16/07/2014 13:34: I would suggest that it doesn't become not a vote merely by not calling it a vote. I note all the closes that count !votes and how the not-voting pattern on a given AFD is frequently brought up at DRV. Sure, but calling it a vote makes it a vote. If it's explicitly a vote by policy, then there won't be such complaints. :-) AFAIK deletion has never been a vote by policy on en.wiki. Nemo ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] AFD survey
On 16 July 2014 12:39, Lane Rasberry l...@bluerasberry.com wrote: ... I asked this researcher to discontinue the survey pending a check on the impact of it on the Wikipedia community. I said this because I feel they are out of compliance with even the soft suggestions in research that are available, and they know this. Good point. If anyone wanted to research deletion discussion patterns and outcomes on the English Wikipedia or other projects, I could knock out a nice analysis using a little passive but intelligent bot work depending on their requirements. I'm easy to find. I'm pretty sure this would be a lot cheaper in volunteer time or research time than creating surveys to answer very similar questions, particularly if the resulting report were freely published so that volunteers could give their subjective value responses to that instead. Fae -- fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] AFD survey
Good points, Lane. Such things were possibly discussed before, but it's the first time that I see it it spelled out like this. This approach should be advertised a bit somehow, so that the researchers know how to do it ethically and for everybody's benefit, and so that the experienced Wikipedians would know not to start answering such surveys. -- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com “We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore 2014-07-16 14:39 GMT+03:00 Lane Rasberry l...@bluerasberry.com: Hello, I feel that this is an unethical research project and I have told the researcher so. We exchanged several emails and were unable to understand each other. I asked them to please have their university ethics board contact me. I asked the researcher about RCOM and other things. This person said they posted to RCOM, but the Meta page states that submissions should receive responses within 1-2 weeks, and yet our messages went unanswered. We have institutional ethics approval, but that doesn't last indefinitely, and so after receiving no response we opted to go ahead. I am not going to share more than this publicly, but in short, I talked with the researcher to the limit of their interest and they feel that they must proceed with the research. Their oversight is at http://www.uwo.ca/research/about/research_offices.html Their RCOM page is at https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:The_Use_of_Rationales_in_Wikipedia_Articles_for_Deletion_Discussions_and_in_Group_Decision_Making My concern here, as with many surveys, is that the researcher greatly values their time and assigns less value to Wikipedia community time, and is comfortable asking for lots of volunteer time on the pretense of helping our community. This kind of research is, in my opinion, not helpful to Wikipedians because the questions make no sense due to having been designed by an outsider, and additionally so many people have these same questions and only want to target our most active and busiest and valuable volunteers. Furthermore there is no compliance here with community values in research. Bad surveys create survey fatigue, in which volunteers are later disinclined to participate in good and useful community-approved research. If anyone sees research problems in the future I am interested in talking about these things. I have been thinking of becoming more involved in supporting RCOM for some time. The basic problem is that practically all researchers assume that the number of highly active Wikipedians is huge, and therefore, they imagine no problem for them to ask for any amount of volunteer time to be diverted from Wikipedia to their personal and private collection of survey data. The reality is that there are not more than hundreds or low thousands of Wikipedians who are active to the extent they imagine. This survey is targeting English AfD, where I imagine there are only low hundreds of at most of continually active participants, and the reality may be much lower participation than that. I asked this researcher to discontinue the survey pending a check on the impact of it on the Wikipedia community. I said this because I feel they are out of compliance with even the soft suggestions in research that are available, and they know this. yours, On Wed, Jul 16, 2014 at 6:53 AM, Srikanth Ramakrishnan srik.r...@wikimedia.in wrote: If the people who have created this survey can fix the problems raised by Fae, I'd be happy to share this with several language Wikipedians in India. I'm sure that at this point nobody would want to be part of it. On Jul 16, 2014 1:54 PM, Tomasz Ganicz polime...@gmail.com wrote: In Polish Wikipedia there is no voting for deletion for around 3-4 years. There is discussion and then final decission is made by one of admins who regularly maintains the deletion process. 2014-07-16 10:20 GMT+02:00 Federico Leva (Nemo) nemow...@gmail.com: Thanks. All questions were generic and about Wikipedia, so I answered with the Italian Wikipedia in mind. Also note that it.wiki is perhaps the only wiki which switched deletions from voting to non-voting: the experiment was already done, you only need to measure and interpret it. :-) See http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2013-January/123334.html I had problems with two questions: * Are you concerned that somebody would change or remove your rationale? Please choose the most applicable response. This question assumes that removing a comment is bad; I would have answered Yes when appropriate per law or policy but there was no such option. * Do you read the rationales in the discussion before making the final decision? This assumes that this is just a matter of personal taste; sometimes policy and process requires it, sometimes not. (For instance in the
Re: [Wikimedia-l] AFD survey
On 07/16/2014 07:44 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) wrote: AFAIK deletion has never been a vote by policy on en.wiki. No, but it almost always devolves to a vote de facto. Interestingly enough, that particular question (did you close discussions by counting show of hand vs evaluating the rationales) appears in the survey, which shows that they are at least aware of the dichotomy. -- Marc ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] AFD survey
Perhaps Lane's involvement with RCOM would prevent submissions from going unanswered for months - this is a huge roadblock to researchers who are trying to do things ethically. On the other hand, if Lane were to accuse other researchers of harming the community for personal gain, as he has done off-list in this case, that too would be very problematic, IMO worse than any survey of this type. I would like to thank others for their feedback. Yes, we are aware of NOTAVOTE - the terminology is a bit problematic, but we are trying to get at the unique use of rationales that ideally constitutes the bulk of such non-vote discussions. Message: 2 Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2014 15:43:48 +0300 From: Amir E. Aharoni amir.ahar...@mail.huji.ac.il To: Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] AFD survey Message-ID: CACtNa8tHeMQRxjnsGHdHDG5B=BX0BsMe4HwSt0GVWp18= 84...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Good points, Lane. Such things were possibly discussed before, but it's the first time that I see it it spelled out like this. This approach should be advertised a bit somehow, so that the researchers know how to do it ethically and for everybody's benefit, and so that the experienced Wikipedians would know not to start answering such surveys. -- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com “We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore 2014-07-16 14:39 GMT+03:00 Lane Rasberry l...@bluerasberry.com: Hello, I feel that this is an unethical research project and I have told the researcher so. We exchanged several emails and were unable to understand each other. I asked them to please have their university ethics board contact me. I asked the researcher about RCOM and other things. This person said they posted to RCOM, but the Meta page states that submissions should receive responses within 1-2 weeks, and yet our messages went unanswered. We have institutional ethics approval, but that doesn't last indefinitely, and so after receiving no response we opted to go ahead. I am not going to share more than this publicly, but in short, I talked with the researcher to the limit of their interest and they feel that they must proceed with the research. Their oversight is at http://www.uwo.ca/research/about/research_offices.html Their RCOM page is at https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:The_Use_of_Rationales_in_Wikipedia_Articles_for_Deletion_Discussions_and_in_Group_Decision_Making My concern here, as with many surveys, is that the researcher greatly values their time and assigns less value to Wikipedia community time, and is comfortable asking for lots of volunteer time on the pretense of helping our community. This kind of research is, in my opinion, not helpful to Wikipedians because the questions make no sense due to having been designed by an outsider, and additionally so many people have these same questions and only want to target our most active and busiest and valuable volunteers. Furthermore there is no compliance here with community values in research. Bad surveys create survey fatigue, in which volunteers are later disinclined to participate in good and useful community-approved research. If anyone sees research problems in the future I am interested in talking about these things. I have been thinking of becoming more involved in supporting RCOM for some time. The basic problem is that practically all researchers assume that the number of highly active Wikipedians is huge, and therefore, they imagine no problem for them to ask for any amount of volunteer time to be diverted from Wikipedia to their personal and private collection of survey data. The reality is that there are not more than hundreds or low thousands of Wikipedians who are active to the extent they imagine. This survey is targeting English AfD, where I imagine there are only low hundreds of at most of continually active participants, and the reality may be much lower participation than that. I asked this researcher to discontinue the survey pending a check on the impact of it on the Wikipedia community. I said this because I feel they are out of compliance with even the soft suggestions in research that are available, and they know this. yours, On Wed, Jul 16, 2014 at 6:53 AM, Srikanth Ramakrishnan srik.r...@wikimedia.in wrote: If the people who have created this survey can fix the problems raised by Fae, I'd be happy to share this with several language Wikipedians in India. I'm sure that at this point nobody would want to be part of it. On Jul 16, 2014 1:54 PM, Tomasz Ganicz polime...@gmail.com wrote: In Polish Wikipedia there is no voting for deletion for around 3-4 years. There is discussion and then final decission is made by one of admins who regularly
Re: [Wikimedia-l] AFD survey
On 16 July 2014 12:34, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: I would suggest that it doesn't become not a vote merely by not calling it a vote. I note all the closes that count !votes and how the not-voting pattern on a given AFD is frequently brought up at DRV. Vote-counting is increasingly prevalent in template deletion discussions (TfDs) on en.WP, too. I raised my concerns there, in May: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Templates_for_discussion#Closure_decisions -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] AFD survey
On Wed, Jul 16, 2014 at 7:39 AM, Lane Rasberry l...@bluerasberry.com wrote: Hello, I feel that this is an unethical research project and I have told the researcher so. We exchanged several emails and were unable to understand each other. I asked them to please have their university ethics board contact me. I asked the researcher about RCOM and other things. This person said they posted to RCOM, but the Meta page states that submissions should receive responses within 1-2 weeks, and yet our messages went unanswered. We have institutional ethics approval, but that doesn't last indefinitely, and so after receiving no response we opted to go ahead. I am not going to share more than this publicly, but in short, I talked with the researcher to the limit of their interest and they feel that they must proceed with the research. Their oversight is at http://www.uwo.ca/research/about/research_offices.html The survey is voluntary, obviously, and anyone who doesn't wish to participate need not. No one is under any obligation to promote it, and we have no rules barring anyone from posting a notice of such a survey to public mailing lists. The survey may not be well designed (we don't necessarily know the full aim of the research), or well targeted, but I do not see how that makes it unethical. No time or effort is consumed that is not volunteered by anyone who elects to participate. The WMF research committee is not the sole arbiter of who can perform research or analysis of the Wikimedia movement or any individual projects; it merely promises recruiting assistance as the result of approval. The proposal for this survey was submitted to RCOM in January, with evidently no comment or contact from RCOM since. The RCOM page says it has not met since 2011. The process appears to be defunct and no researcher should be required to wait for it to be resurrected. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] AFD survey
To avoid confusion with researchers in the future, I've made some minor changes to the research related pages on Meta (see below). This should help ensure that outdated documentation does not cause unnecessarily delay and/or expense for those interested in doing Wikimedia-related research. 1: Posted a notice to the top of https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Subject_recruitment to the effect that RCOM no longer evaluates research projects or participates in recruiting participants, and removed the assertion that research requires approval from RCOM. 2: Updated https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:FAQ to make it clear that the WMF / RCOM does not evaluate specific research proposals or assist in recruiting, and that any researcher intending to conduct on-wiki interaction should seek approval from the local projects using whatever methods have been established locally. 3: Removed the reference to RCOM approval from https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Projects ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
[Wikimedia-l] AFD survey
We are looking for Wikipedians to participate in a survey. The survey is designed to help us understand group decision-making and Wikipedia’s Articles for Deletion (AfD) process. The research is being carried out under the terms of the University of Western Ontario - Code of Conduct; it will not lead to any sales follow up; no individual (or organization) will be identified in our reporting. If you are an adult Wikipedian, we would be grateful if you could spare approximately 10-15 minutes to complete this survey. As a token of our gratitude, for each completed survey we will make a charitable donation of CAD$2 to the Wikimedia Foundation. If you have any questions, please contact Lu Xiao at lxiao24 (at) uwo.ca. To start the survey please click ONCE on the link below: http:// fluidsurveys.com/s/WikipediaSurvey/ Please try to complete the survey by August 1, 2014. Thank you very much for your time, we really value your input. Sincerely, UWO Wikipedia Research Team ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
