Re: [Wikimedia-l] AffComs $40,000 Hong Kong junket

2013-05-17 Thread Samuel Klein
Thank you Bence, for your thoughtful replies to this thread, here and on Meta. Lodewijk writes: I think there are two relevant discussions to be had: First of all, whether there should be an AffCom meeting at all. I've seen excellent work come out of long-form committee meetings. Though these

Re: [Wikimedia-l] AffComs $40,000 Hong Kong junket

2013-05-14 Thread Andrea Zanni
On Tue, May 14, 2013 at 12:30 AM, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkinson%27s_law_of_triviality I don't really think this is a triviality. Cents and single dollars of chapters are weighted and analyzed, FDC and GACs nitpicks and their goal is to assure

Re: [Wikimedia-l] AffComs $40,000 Hong Kong junket

2013-05-14 Thread David Gerard
On 14 May 2013 08:12, Andrea Zanni zanni.andre...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, May 14, 2013 at 12:30 AM, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkinson%27s_law_of_triviality I don't really think this is a triviality. I really do think it's an absolutely perfect

Re: [Wikimedia-l] AffComs $40,000 Hong Kong junket

2013-05-14 Thread Lodewijk
I don't think it is trivial either, and having a discussion is fine. However, the bigger discussion is perhaps more relevant - because AffCom is simply following WMF policy here, which is in place for many employees, board members (and others? not sure). So I think there are two relevant

Re: [Wikimedia-l] AffComs $40,000 Hong Kong junket

2013-05-14 Thread Lodewijk
2013/5/14 Lodewijk lodew...@effeietsanders.org I don't think it is trivial either, and having a discussion is fine. However, the bigger discussion is perhaps more relevant - because AffCom is simply following WMF policy here, which is in place for many employees, board members (and others?

Re: [Wikimedia-l] AffComs $40,000 Hong Kong junket

2013-05-14 Thread Fae
On 14 May 2013 08:45, Lodewijk lodew...@effeietsanders.org wrote: 2013/5/14 Lodewijk lodew...@effeietsanders.org ... Personally, I feel that WMF Committee (and board) members should not be treated to a lower standard than staff members, simply because they are not being paid for their work.

Re: [Wikimedia-l] AffComs $40,000 Hong Kong junket

2013-05-14 Thread Balázs Viczián
40k for a single meetup can be justified if the results worth that much money. (I've already argued about this regarding Milan chapters meetup btw). Providing a more than basic travel and accomodation can be a way of appreciation as well for their work, what they do as volunteers, that should be

Re: [Wikimedia-l] AffComs $40,000 Hong Kong junket

2013-05-14 Thread Itzik Edri
Bence, I appreciate AffCom work, and everyone of the the committee volunteers that doing a great job. But I really don't like the excuse of sticking to WMF's policy. Without having to start discussing the WMF's policy, I think AffCom should be mature enough to adopt a similar policy behavior as

Re: [Wikimedia-l] AffComs $40,000 Hong Kong junket

2013-05-14 Thread Tonmoy Khan
Hi, I think the question here should be more general, not for the particular case of AffCom only. We should really give a serious thought on whether such big expenditures are really worth the money or not. And it should encompass all the parties to the movement (volunteers, chapter members, WMF).

Re: [Wikimedia-l] AffComs $40,000 Hong Kong junket

2013-05-14 Thread David Gerard
On 14 May 2013 20:53, Tonmoy Khan tonmoy...@gmail.com wrote: WMF). Here, the choice of hotel really seems expensive. Though I didn't have any prior idea about hotel rent in Hong Kong, I searched on google for some good quality hotels in Tsim Sha Tsui area and found that there are many 4 star

Re: [Wikimedia-l] AffComs $40,000 Hong Kong junket

2013-05-14 Thread Bence Damokos
Hi all, Thank you all for your kind suggestions on specific hotels. I would just like to reiterate what might have been lost under the pile of talk page messages, is that 1) technically, the WMF still has to approve the overall budget request that this meeting forms a part of, and while I don't

Re: [Wikimedia-l] AffComs $40,000 Hong Kong junket

2013-05-14 Thread Nathan
I think the point got lost that this is the budget (i.e. the maximum allotted), not the actual spending plan. It's highly probable that the actual costs will be something other than the maximum allowed amount. Perhaps we should restrain our outrage until then. Meanwhile, let's start another

Re: [Wikimedia-l] AffComs $40,000 Hong Kong junket

2013-05-14 Thread Fae
On 14 May 2013 21:13, Bence Damokos bdamo...@gmail.com wrote: ... to be effective in the meeting. In the long run, if the WMF doesn't amend its travel practices one can always join any of the WMF volunteer or staff communities that result in occasional travel as a perk and more often as a cost

[Wikimedia-l] AffComs $40,000 Hong Kong junket

2013-05-13 Thread Russavia
Hi all, It recently came to my attention by way of this blog by Odder (http://twkozlowski.net/how-40k-dollars-turned-to-petty-cash/) that the AffCom approved a $40,000 budget to send 9 of their members to HKG in August (the 10th member lives in HKG). The issue was raised at

Re: [Wikimedia-l] AffComs $40,000 Hong Kong junket

2013-05-13 Thread Nathan
$200 per person per night for international travel is not outrageous. It's actually quite reasonable, in my opinion, for business travel. I don't think it reasonable to expect people who don't know eachother or even work together to room together for a week in a foreign country. The question you

Re: [Wikimedia-l] AffComs $40,000 Hong Kong junket

2013-05-13 Thread Tomasz W. Kozlowski
Gregory Varnum wrote: I am not sure what you mean by none of the members being willing to comment. Our chair has responded several times on Meta and many others have responded to Odder via email about this. Let me just straighten this, Greg. Nobody has ever contacted me via e-mail about

Re: [Wikimedia-l] AffComs $40,000 Hong Kong junket

2013-05-13 Thread Nathan
The US federal government maximum rate for lodging Hong Kong is $358 per night.[1] I'm not saying $200 is frugal, it's just not outrageous. [1]:http://aoprals.state.gov/web920/per_diem_action.asp?MenuHide=1PostCode=10261 ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list

Re: [Wikimedia-l] AffComs $40,000 Hong Kong junket

2013-05-13 Thread Michael Peel
I'm not sure that the maximum rate is the best comparison to make here. I can understand that for senior representatives of the US government on official business, since prestige seems to be an issue there, but for individuals on charity business? I'm not saying outrageous, but I am saying

Re: [Wikimedia-l] AffComs $40,000 Hong Kong junket

2013-05-13 Thread Nathan
It applies equally well to GS11s traveling on business where prestige is not a factor. Even domestically, I've seen travel costs approximately in line with $200 per night paid by not-for-profits. Can it be cheaper? Sure. Is it cause for outrage and opprobrium in public? I doubt it. I'm more

Re: [Wikimedia-l] AffComs $40,000 Hong Kong junket

2013-05-13 Thread Deryck Chan
In such resolutions, one always budget for the maximum plausible cost and then underspend. It is rather unhelpful to look at the budgeted amount and shout at it as if it's the actual amount spent. PS. Jealous? Run for the forthcoming elections. Winners of those elections also get to travel to

Re: [Wikimedia-l] AffComs $40,000 Hong Kong junket

2013-05-13 Thread Bence Damokos
Hi Tomasz, On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 10:14 PM, Tomasz W. Kozlowski tom...@twkozlowski.net wrote: Gregory Varnum wrote: I am not sure what you mean by none of the members being willing to comment. Our chair has responded several times on Meta and many others have responded to Odder

Re: [Wikimedia-l] AffComs $40,000 Hong Kong junket

2013-05-13 Thread Andrew Lih
On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 1:05 PM, Michael Peel em...@mikepeel.net wrote: ...Paris and London are both more expensive cities that Hong Kong, so I'd expect the daily rate here to be closer to $130/night, and ideally less than that where bookings are made sufficiently in advance. Not to be a

Re: [Wikimedia-l] AffComs $40,000 Hong Kong junket

2013-05-13 Thread Michael Peel
On 13 May 2013, at 22:03, Andrew Lih andrew@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 1:05 PM, Michael Peel em...@mikepeel.net wrote: ...Paris and London are both more expensive cities that Hong Kong, so I'd expect the daily rate here to be closer to $130/night, and ideally less than

Re: [Wikimedia-l] AffComs $40,000 Hong Kong junket

2013-05-13 Thread Risker
On 13 May 2013 17:15, Michael Peel em...@mikepeel.net wrote: On 13 May 2013, at 22:03, Andrew Lih andrew@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 1:05 PM, Michael Peel em...@mikepeel.net wrote: ...Paris and London are both more expensive cities that Hong Kong, so I'd expect the

Re: [Wikimedia-l] AffComs $40,000 Hong Kong junket

2013-05-13 Thread Russavia
Hi Andrew et al On Tue, May 14, 2013 at 5:03 AM, Andrew Lih andrew@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 1:05 PM, Michael Peel em...@mikepeel.net wrote: ...Paris and London are both more expensive cities that Hong Kong, so I'd expect the daily rate here to be closer to $130/night, and

Re: [Wikimedia-l] AffComs $40,000 Hong Kong junket

2013-05-13 Thread Béria Lima
To get a better picture, the hotels listed in the google maps linked here ( http://wikimania2013.wikimedia.org/wiki/Accommodation) ranged from 110 dollars to 170 dollars per night and room and If you place 2 people in the same room the price is 55 to 85 dollars per person (that without the

Re: [Wikimedia-l] AffComs $40,000 Hong Kong junket

2013-05-13 Thread Andrew Lih
On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 2:30 PM, Russavia russavia.wikipe...@gmail.comwrote: That list is for 5 star hotels; something that I hope that donor money is never put towards covering the cost of; regardlessofwho itis. I don't see any indication that list is for 5 star hotels. Also, I'm not sure

Re: [Wikimedia-l] AffComs $40,000 Hong Kong junket

2013-05-13 Thread David Gerard
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkinson%27s_law_of_triviality - d. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l