Re: [Wikimedia-l] Announcement: WMF to file suit against the NSA

2015-04-04 Thread Anthony Cole
I appreciate Andreas keeping this list updated, and it is not tangential but central to this thread's topic. It is very pertinent that the self-appointed spokesperson of this community (who has styled himself in this NSA suit as a worrier for freedom) was snuggling up to a truly despotic regime,

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Announcement: WMF to file suit against the NSA

2015-04-03 Thread Austin Hair
Okay, but seriously, please stop resurrecting this thread. If you think it's important that something be done, start a new one, and *actually suggest something* rather than just copying articles from somewhere else. Austin On Fri, Apr 3, 2015 at 1:58 AM, Andreas Kolbe jayen...@gmail.com wrote:

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Announcement: WMF to file suit against the NSA

2015-04-02 Thread Andreas Kolbe
Article in Eurasianet today: Wikipedia Founder Distances Himself from Kazakhstan PR Machine http://www.eurasianet.org/node/72831 ---o0o--- [...] On March 20, Wikipedia founder Jimmy Wales hosted an Ask Me Anything

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Announcement: WMF to file suit against the NSA

2015-03-19 Thread Andreas Kolbe
On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 10:34 PM, John Mark Vandenberg jay...@gmail.com wrote: Andreas' idea should be written up as an IdeaLab project, or research grant proposal, etc. Thanks. For those interested in getting involved, I've added it on IdeaLab:

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Announcement: WMF to file suit against the NSA

2015-03-18 Thread Andreas Kolbe
On Sun, Mar 15, 2015 at 11:55 PM, Andreas Kolbe jayen...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Mar 15, 2015 at 10:14 PM, Andreas Kolbe jayen...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Mar 15, 2015 at 5:53 PM, phoebe ayers phoebe.w...@gmail.com wrote: What other unfortunate laws are happening elsewhere in the

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Announcement: WMF to file suit against the NSA

2015-03-18 Thread Thyge
I do not think that WMF's filing a suit against NSA should be a starting point for demanding the WMF to cure all the evils of the World, political or otherwise . Even handling the recognized problems of some minor Wikipedias fall outside the scope of the WMF. Wikipedia is the Encyclopedia anyone

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Announcement: WMF to file suit against the NSA

2015-03-18 Thread Andreas Kolbe
On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 1:17 PM, Thyge ltl.pri...@gmail.com wrote: I do not think that WMF's filing a suit against NSA should be a starting point for demanding the WMF to cure all the evils of the World, political or otherwise. Well, not all the evils of the world, obviously. :) But there

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Announcement: WMF to file suit against the NSA

2015-03-18 Thread Austin Hair
On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 10:26 PM, Steven Walling steven.wall...@gmail.com wrote: These off topic emails about the same subject Andreas grinds his axe about perpetually are pretty annoying. Can moderation do something please? I'm not sure what forum would be more on-topic, if not this one. I

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Announcement: WMF to file suit against the NSA

2015-03-15 Thread Yann Forget
Hi, 2015-03-13 5:54 GMT+01:00 MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com: phoebe ayers wrote: (...) Education is apolitical. Education is certainly not apolitical. People with different political opinions support education, but free education like the one promoted by the WMF is certainly more a political

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Announcement: WMF to file suit against the NSA

2015-03-15 Thread phoebe ayers
Hi all, On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 9:54 PM, MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com wrote: phoebe ayers wrote: I trust our legal team to make decisions about what legal actions to participate in. Whether the Wikimedia Foundation should be engaged in political advocacy, and if so, who decides when and to

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Announcement: WMF to file suit against the NSA

2015-03-15 Thread Andreas Kolbe
On Sun, Mar 15, 2015 at 5:53 PM, phoebe ayers phoebe.w...@gmail.com wrote: What other unfortunate laws are happening elsewhere in the world and how do we track and maybe act on those? I gave a very specific example in an earlier post this month:[1] A [Kazakh] law that took effect in

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Announcement: WMF to file suit against the NSA

2015-03-15 Thread Andreas Kolbe
On Sun, Mar 15, 2015 at 10:14 PM, Andreas Kolbe jayen...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Mar 15, 2015 at 5:53 PM, phoebe ayers phoebe.w...@gmail.com wrote: What other unfortunate laws are happening elsewhere in the world and how do we track and maybe act on those? Here is a concrete

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Announcement: WMF to file suit against the NSA

2015-03-13 Thread Steven Walling
On Fri, Mar 13, 2015 at 7:00 AM Andreas Kolbe jayen...@gmail.com wrote: Steven Walling has written an interesting answer on Quora about one aspect of the New York Times op-ed, i.e. the threat NSA surveillance supposedly poses to Wikipedians living under oppressive regimes:

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Announcement: WMF to file suit against the NSA

2015-03-13 Thread Pine W
I'm generally supportive of this legal action, but I am troubled by this statement: I trust our legal team to make decisions about what legal actions to participate in. In general I think highly of Michelle, but this statement fits a long-running pattern I percieve in WMF governance of the board

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Announcement: WMF to file suit against the NSA

2015-03-13 Thread James Alexander
On Fri, Mar 13, 2015 at 12:04 PM, Pine W wiki.p...@gmail.com wrote: I'm generally supportive of this legal action, but I am troubled by this statement: I trust our legal team to make decisions about what legal actions to participate in. In general I think highly of Michelle, but this

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Announcement: WMF to file suit against the NSA

2015-03-13 Thread Pine W
Oliver, I have thought about running more than once (: Perhaps I am reading more into that comment than was intended. James, I have mixed feelings about having discussions behind closed doors. Sometimes it's convenient or emotionally easier to do so, but I worry about losing our value of

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Announcement: WMF to file suit against the NSA

2015-03-13 Thread Oliver Keyes
(Personal capacity) Pine: I think you're reading far more into Phoebe's comment than it actually contained. What she said was I trust our legal team to make decisions about what legal actions to participate in. In other words, to make evaluations about the probability of success, the necessity of

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Announcement: WMF to file suit against the NSA

2015-03-13 Thread Pine W
Pardon the mobile device mistype. A *move* toward more openness. Pine On Mar 13, 2015 12:49 PM, Pine W wiki.p...@gmail.com wrote: Oliver, I have thought about running more than once (: Perhaps I am reading more into that comment than was intended. James, I have mixed feelings about

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Announcement: WMF to file suit against the NSA

2015-03-13 Thread Cristian Consonni
2015-03-13 10:36 GMT+01:00 Edward Saperia edsape...@gmail.com: Education is apolitical. I beg to differ. Me too. «Growing up, you know, I slowly had this process realizing that all the things around me that people had told me were just the natural way of things were, or the way things would

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Announcement: WMF to file suit against the NSA

2015-03-13 Thread David Gerard
On 13 March 2015 at 19:04, Pine W wiki.p...@gmail.com wrote: In general I think highly of Michelle, but this statement fits a long-running pattern I percieve in WMF governance of the board being deferential to the ED and staff. This goes back to Sue's tenure and possibly longer. I feel that

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Announcement: WMF to file suit against the NSA

2015-03-13 Thread Bishakha Datta
On Sat, Mar 14, 2015 at 12:34 AM, Pine W wiki.p...@gmail.com wrote: I'm generally supportive of this legal action, but I am troubled by this statement: I trust our legal team to make decisions about what legal actions to participate in. ...WMF needs an activist board. All of the guidance

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Announcement: WMF to file suit against the NSA

2015-03-13 Thread Pine W
Hmm. It's more like we have little evidence that the former is happening, perhaps because of the latter. Anyway, yes, I think I've made my point and will let this thread get back on its main track. Pine On Mar 13, 2015 5:43 PM, Oliver Keyes ironho...@gmail.com wrote: So we've now moved from the

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Announcement: WMF to file suit against the NSA

2015-03-13 Thread Oliver Keyes
So we've now moved from the board doesn't ask hard enough questions! to the board doesn't tell us enough? Those are distinct concerns. If you have them, I'd suggest spinning off a thread so we can keep this one to what it's meant to be discussing. On Fri, Mar 13, 2015 at 3:51 PM, Pine W

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Announcement: WMF to file suit against the NSA

2015-03-13 Thread Edward Saperia
Education is apolitical. I beg to differ. Saying that Wikipedia is apolitical is like saying democracy is apolitical. Control of information is at the heart of politics, and the knowledge that people have access to profoundly changes the way that they interact with society over their

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Announcement: WMF to file suit against the NSA

2015-03-13 Thread Kim Bruning
I think that making us not-a-source-of-referred-traffic might be a good thing. (It disincentivises those who should be disincentivised, while not harming anyone else) sincerely, Kim Bruning On Tue, Mar 10, 2015 at 09:21:57AM -0700, Pete Forsyth wrote: There's a relevant research

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Announcement: WMF to file suit against the NSA

2015-03-13 Thread Andreas Kolbe
Steven Walling has written an interesting answer on Quora about one aspect of the New York Times op-ed, i.e. the threat NSA surveillance supposedly poses to Wikipedians living under oppressive regimes:

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Announcement: WMF to file suit against the NSA

2015-03-13 Thread Andreas Kolbe
On Wed, Mar 11, 2015 at 5:03 AM, MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com wrote: How does the Wikimedia Foundation intend to protect the rights of users around the world when it will have a nearly impossible time of protecting Americans, much less non-Americans? U.S. courts and the U.S. Congress have

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Announcement: WMF to file suit against the NSA

2015-03-12 Thread Anders Wennersten
Personally I am not convinced this is an optimal action in order for us to reach our goals, mission and vision. To attack the Intellectual property laws would be more spot on and this action can put our image/brand at risk (but also strengthen it). From a tactical viewpoint, I personally have

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Announcement: WMF to file suit against the NSA

2015-03-12 Thread Robert Rohde
I agree that it is good for someone to stand up to the NSA, though I am also very sympathetic to the point that taking legal action may require the WMF to devote considerable time and money to this project, and distract from other goals. Perhaps the ACLU and the other plaintiffs are going to

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Announcement: WMF to file suit against the NSA

2015-03-12 Thread James Alexander
On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 10:12 PM, MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com wrote: A page on Meta-Wiki collecting information about this lawsuit might be nice to have. When we were rolling out I put the FAQ at https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_v._National_Security_Agency/FAQ for

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Announcement: WMF to file suit against the NSA

2015-03-12 Thread MZMcBride
phoebe ayers wrote: As for cost, remember that the ACLU is filing the suit on the plaintiffs' (us) behalf. My understanding is our major investment here is coordination time and our good name. The fact that the Wikimedia Foundation is being used as a convenient vehicle makes me feel a bit more

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Announcement: WMF to file suit against the NSA

2015-03-12 Thread MZMcBride
In answers to questions on Quora, Jimmy Wales responded to some of the points from my earlier mailing list reply. (I didn't post any questions, including the questions linked below, to Quora.) A page on Meta-Wiki collecting information about this lawsuit might be nice to have. MZMcBride wrote:

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Announcement: WMF to file suit against the NSA

2015-03-11 Thread Andrew Bogott
On 3/11/15 12:03 AM, MZMcBride wrote: snip But more to the point: even if by some miracle, this case were resolved in 2015 with a very explicit federal court order instructing the National Security Agency to cease mass surveillance, is there anyone who believes that this will end mass

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Announcement: WMF to file suit against the NSA

2015-03-11 Thread Bishakha Datta
On Wed, Mar 11, 2015 at 6:40 AM, Samuel Klein meta...@gmail.com wrote: Let's hope so. A key point is that the extraordinary overreach of this surveillance affects everyone. I am absolutely delighted that the Wikimedia Foundation has taken this courageous step - precisely because

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Announcement: WMF to file suit against the NSA

2015-03-11 Thread geni
On 11 March 2015 at 08:37, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com wrote: Hoi, The fact that law suits like this actually happen is a wonderful improvement in and of itself. Our aim is to freely share in the sum of all knowledge. Free has many meaning, one of them is free to share without

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Announcement: WMF to file suit against the NSA

2015-03-11 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi, Sigh ... being spied upon by the AIVD is not fine. However, they have a duty to Dutch people and the argument that the NSA is benign to US-Americans equally applies to the AIVD. We do serve Wikimedia content from Amsterdam. The notion that the AIVD is incompetent is based on what ? It is

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Announcement: WMF to file suit against the NSA

2015-03-11 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi, The fact that law suits like this actually happen is a wonderful improvement in and of itself. Our aim is to freely share in the sum of all knowledge. Free has many meaning, one of them is free to share without consequences.It is not only about free of cost.In the past we implemented https

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Announcement: WMF to file suit against the NSA

2015-03-11 Thread Josh Lim
Thanks for the news, Michelle, and good luck to the Legal team as this case moves forward. :) That being said, I am concerned that the Foundation seems to give unequal airtime to U.S.-specific issues, while not really doing much about similar issues in other parts of the world. Much of my

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Announcement: WMF to file suit against the NSA

2015-03-11 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi, Please read this article by the Volkskrant (in the translation of your tools) and you see that a review by a judge can be extremely useful. It also shows that organisations like the NSA can and do lose.

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Announcement: WMF to file suit against the NSA

2015-03-11 Thread phoebe ayers
On Tue, Mar 10, 2015 at 10:03 PM, MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com wrote: Hi. I'm of two minds here. I would love for mass surveillance to stop; the revelations of the past few years are disgusting. However, this lawsuit has the appearance of being the start of a completely un-winnable case

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Announcement: WMF to file suit against the NSA

2015-03-10 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi, I applaud this action. Great. The next step is making it not so easy for the NSA to harvest their ill gotten gains. We could and should share our data from cache servers that are much closer to our users ie outside the USA. The benefit would not be so much in frustrating the NSA but more in

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Announcement: WMF to file suit against the NSA

2015-03-10 Thread Comet styles
for an organization taking on the NSA for spying..why are we using https? doesn't that show that we are already scared of them and running with our tail between our legs? On 3/10/15, Dariusz Jemielniak dar...@alk.edu.pl wrote: this sounds exactly as a thing we, as a movement, need institutional

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Announcement: WMF to file suit against the NSA

2015-03-10 Thread Dariusz Jemielniak
this sounds exactly as a thing we, as a movement, need institutional support of WMF for. Thanks for doing that. dariusz pundit On Tue, Mar 10, 2015 at 8:53 AM, Michelle Paulson mpaul...@wikimedia.org wrote: Hi All, I’m writing to let you know that today the Wikimedia Foundation[1] is filing

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Announcement: WMF to file suit against the NSA

2015-03-10 Thread Amir Ladsgroup
I created draft of the article about the case https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Wikimedia_v._NSAin English Wikipedia. I'm not sure it's not too soon to move this draft to the main namespace. Please add content and then move it to main ns when you think it's ready. Best On Tue, Mar 10, 2015 at

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Announcement: WMF to file suit against the NSA

2015-03-10 Thread Johan Jönsson
2015-03-10 13:26 GMT+01:00 Comet styles cometsty...@gmail.com: for an organization taking on the NSA for spying..why are we using https? doesn't that show that we are already scared of them and running with our tail between our legs? (For non-technical readers: the HTTP protocol is the

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Announcement: WMF to file suit against the NSA

2015-03-10 Thread വിശ്വപ്രഭ
Greatly done! This is not just news. It is a mark that will be recorded in bold letters in the history of human's quest for knowledge. -user:ViswaPrabha https://ml.wikipedia.org On 10 March 2015 at 18:15, Tomasz Ganicz polime...@gmail.com wrote: https is generaly increasing privacy of the

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Announcement: WMF to file suit against the NSA

2015-03-10 Thread Tomasz Ganicz
https is generaly increasing privacy of the users. http can be listen by anyone. It is like using walkie-talkie - anyone with radio-scanner can listen :-) 2015-03-10 13:26 GMT+01:00 Comet styles cometsty...@gmail.com: for an organization taking on the NSA for spying..why are we using

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Announcement: WMF to file suit against the NSA

2015-03-10 Thread Ivan Martínez
That's great! Pending for translation. 2015-03-10 10:21 GMT-06:00 Pete Forsyth petefors...@gmail.com: There's a relevant research project outlined on Meta, about HTTPS: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Wikimedia_referrer_policy Here's the nutshell description: Since we started

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Announcement: WMF to file suit against the NSA

2015-03-10 Thread Samuel Klein
Michelle and Geoff - thank you. This is a big step; I am glad that WMF can help move this case forward. Chris Keating writes: I'm not American, but the other co-plaintiffs seem to be civil rights / human rights organisations who are firmly at the left-wing/progressive end of US politics, some

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Announcement: WMF to file suit against the NSA

2015-03-10 Thread Andrew Lih
Probably a good time for everyone to know about EFF's HTTPS Everywhere: HTTPS Everywhere is a Firefox, Chrome, and Opera extension that encrypts your communications with many major websites, making your browsing more secure. Encrypt the web: Install HTTPS Everywhere today.

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Announcement: WMF to file suit against the NSA

2015-03-10 Thread Gregory Varnum
Kudos to the Legal Team on this important case! -greg aka varnent On Tue, Mar 10, 2015 at 9:01 AM, ViswaPrabha (വിശ്വപ്രഭ) vp2...@gmail.com wrote: Greatly done! This is not just news. It is a mark that will be recorded in bold letters in the history of human's quest for knowledge.

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Announcement: WMF to file suit against the NSA

2015-03-10 Thread Pete Forsyth
There's a relevant research project outlined on Meta, about HTTPS: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Wikimedia_referrer_policy Here's the nutshell description: Since we started switching to HTTPS and an increasing portion of inbound traffic happens over SSL, Wikimedia sites stopped

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Announcement: WMF to file suit against the NSA

2015-03-10 Thread Chris Keating
Curious question, by the way: how controversial would you expect this move to be domestically? From e.g. a Swedish perspective, the NSA is an intelligence agency of a foreign power and the other mentioned organizations are either largely uncontroversial and seen in a positive light (Amnesty,

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Announcement: WMF to file suit against the NSA

2015-03-10 Thread James Alexander
Aye, I also only have anecdotal evidince at this point (from my father who has been messaging me and myself) but the comments I've seen in the american press have been 10:1 (higher on tech sites) with generally more thoughtful comments then usual and where there are critiques they are not bad

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Announcement: WMF to file suit against the NSA

2015-03-10 Thread Pete Forsyth
On Tue, Mar 10, 2015 at 1:15 PM, Chris Keating chriskeatingw...@gmail.com wrote: I'm not American, but the other co-plaintiffs seem to be civil rights / human rights organisations who are firmly at the left-wing/progressive end of US politics I am an American, and I'm not so sure about that

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Announcement: WMF to file suit against the NSA

2015-03-10 Thread David Gerard
It's difficult to overstate how much people love us. We tell them everything about everything, and we're mostly right and try to stay neutral. But it's all written by just people! So it's cosy as well. With SOPA, we discovered that: when Wikipedia says you suck, you *suck*. So I'd expect that

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Announcement: WMF to file suit against the NSA

2015-03-10 Thread Johan Jönsson
2015-03-10 8:53 GMT+01:00 Michelle Paulson mpaul...@wikimedia.org: Hi All, I’m writing to let you know that today the Wikimedia Foundation[1] is filing suit against the National Security Agency https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Security_Agency, the Department of Justice

[Wikimedia-l] Announcement: WMF to file suit against the NSA

2015-03-10 Thread Michelle Paulson
Hi All, I’m writing to let you know that today the Wikimedia Foundation[1] is filing suit against the National Security Agency https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Security_Agency, the Department of Justice https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Department_of_Justice, and the U.S. Attorney

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Announcement: WMF to file suit against the NSA

2015-03-10 Thread Raymond Leonard
In the U.S., there is also a strong minority contingent of Libertarians, who tend to be on the right-wing/conservative part of the political spectrum. These are natural allies for both privacy governmental non-intrunsion. I think that they would welcome WMF joining this legal action. Yours,

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Announcement: WMF to file suit against the NSA

2015-03-10 Thread Yann Forget
Hi, Wow! I am proud to be a volunteer working with an organisation daring to take such steps. I hope that this will bring concrete results. Best regards, Yann 2015-03-10 8:53 GMT+01:00 Michelle Paulson mpaul...@wikimedia.org: Hi All, I’m writing to let you know that today the Wikimedia

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Announcement: WMF to file suit against the NSA

2015-03-10 Thread Michael Maggs
Thank you for taking this action. All the best, Michael Michelle Paulson mailto:mpaul...@wikimedia.org 10 March 2015 07:53 Hi All, I’m writing to let you know that today the Wikimedia Foundation[1] is filing suit against the National Security Agency