Re: [Wikimedia-l] Copyright on Xrays

2012-08-24 Thread Anthony
On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 8:44 PM, birgitte...@yahoo.com wrote: On Aug 23, 2012, at 8:05 AM, Anthony wikim...@inbox.org wrote: On the other hand, if probably no one will sue is good enough for you, then you really don't need to ask the legal question in the first place. That is not at all

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Copyright on Xrays

2012-08-24 Thread Anthony
On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 8:44 PM, birgitte...@yahoo.com wrote: On Aug 23, 2012, at 8:05 AM, Anthony wikim...@inbox.org wrote: And many others were designed, like the X-ray image, to objectively depict reality. _ Yes there are many such images. These types of images are

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Copyright on Xrays

2012-08-24 Thread Anthony
On Fri, Aug 24, 2012 at 9:59 AM, Anthony wikim...@inbox.org wrote: At this point I'm starting to doubt whether or not Meshwerks even applies. Heh, I'm reading Meshwerks (which I believe can be easily distinguished from X-ray images for many reasons, not the least of which is that it wasn't about

[Wikimedia-l] Copyright on Xrays

2012-08-24 Thread James Heilman
RFC closing in 3,2,... (James Heilman) -- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 07:20:59 -0500 From: birgitte...@yahoo.com To: Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Copyright on Xrays

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Copyright on Xrays

2012-08-23 Thread Birgitte_sb
On Aug 22, 2012, at 9:31 AM, Anthony wikim...@inbox.org wrote: On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 10:22 AM, Anthony wikim...@inbox.org wrote: On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 9:14 AM, birgitte...@yahoo.com wrote: Now clearly being able to judge that X is a utilitarian work is the more normal problem with

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Copyright on Xrays

2012-08-23 Thread Birgitte_sb
On Aug 22, 2012, at 9:22 AM, Anthony wikim...@inbox.org wrote: On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 9:14 AM, birgitte...@yahoo.com wrote: I really doubt non-artistic works are copyrighted as a general rule anywhere I'm not sure what you mean by non-artistic, but if you mean purely utilitarian, as

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Copyright on Xrays

2012-08-23 Thread Birgitte_sb
On Aug 22, 2012, at 4:41 PM, Anthony wikim...@inbox.org wrote: On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 4:15 PM, Todd Allen toddmal...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 1:54 PM, Anthony wikim...@inbox.org wrote: On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 2:47 PM, Thomas Dalton thomas.dal...@gmail.com wrote:

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Copyright on Xrays

2012-08-23 Thread Anthony
On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 8:20 AM, birgitte...@yahoo.com wrote: I believe artistic/non-artistic is accurate for images. Technically it is artistic, literary, dramatic, or musical works. Well, I think that's an abuse of the term artistic. The job of a photojournalist, for instance, is to

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Copyright on Xrays

2012-08-23 Thread Anthony
On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 8:34 AM, birgitte...@yahoo.com wrote: On Aug 22, 2012, at 4:41 PM, Anthony wikim...@inbox.org wrote: I could be wrong, but I'm not sure there's a requirement for aesthetic or artistic purpose. Non-fiction, software, legal contracts, etc., all have been held to be

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Copyright on Xrays

2012-08-23 Thread Anthony
On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 2:49 PM, birgitte...@yahoo.com wrote: To reword what I said before the vast majority of X-ray images in existence are diagnostic images. There is no reason at all to purposefully search out X-rays that might land in some grey area. One problem with that is that the

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Copyright on Xrays

2012-08-23 Thread Anthony
On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 9:05 AM, Anthony wikim...@inbox.org wrote: And many others were designed, like the X-ray image, to objectively depict reality. In fact, in theory, almost all the images in an encyclopedia should be of this type (I say almost because there will also be images which are

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Copyright on Xrays

2012-08-23 Thread Birgitte_sb
On Aug 23, 2012, at 8:05 AM, Anthony wikim...@inbox.org wrote: On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 2:49 PM, birgitte...@yahoo.com wrote: To reword what I said before the vast majority of X-ray images in existence are diagnostic images. There is no reason at all to purposefully search out X-rays

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Copyright on Xrays

2012-08-22 Thread Anthony
On Tue, Aug 21, 2012 at 4:17 PM, Todd Allen toddmal...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Aug 21, 2012 at 1:19 PM, geni geni...@gmail.com wrote: On 21 August 2012 19:44, birgitte...@yahoo.com wrote: Utilitarian work = uncopyrightable Only under a fairly limited number of legal systems. -- geni

[Wikimedia-l] Copyright on Xrays

2012-08-22 Thread James Heilman
There are two things if the images are not copyrightable: 1) If users add images from lets say a textbook. Will someone on commons simply delete them and thus it would be a waste of time. 2) Do we exposure either ourselves or the WMF to legal problems. And if so is this important enough to

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Copyright on Xrays

2012-08-22 Thread Birgitte_sb
On Aug 21, 2012, at 3:17 PM, Todd Allen toddmal...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Aug 21, 2012 at 1:19 PM, geni geni...@gmail.com wrote: On 21 August 2012 19:44, birgitte...@yahoo.com wrote: Utilitarian work = uncopyrightable Only under a fairly limited number of legal systems.

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Copyright on Xrays

2012-08-22 Thread Birgitte_sb
On Aug 22, 2012, at 8:02 AM, James Heilman jmh...@gmail.com wrote: There are two things if the images are not copyrightable: 1) If users add images from lets say a textbook. Will someone on commons simply delete them and thus it would be a waste of time. 2) Do we exposure either

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Copyright on Xrays

2012-08-22 Thread Anthony
On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 9:14 AM, birgitte...@yahoo.com wrote: I really doubt non-artistic works are copyrighted as a general rule anywhere I'm not sure what you mean by non-artistic, but if you mean purely utilitarian, as that term is interpreted by the court, then this is a good point. I was

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Copyright on Xrays

2012-08-22 Thread Anthony
On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 10:22 AM, Anthony wikim...@inbox.org wrote: On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 9:14 AM, birgitte...@yahoo.com wrote: Now clearly being able to judge that X is a utilitarian work is the more normal problem with this argument and why it is seldom used. Diagnostic images are one of

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Copyright on Xrays

2012-08-22 Thread geni
On 22 August 2012 14:14, birgitte...@yahoo.com wrote: On Aug 21, 2012, at 3:17 PM, Todd Allen toddmal...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Aug 21, 2012 at 1:19 PM, geni geni...@gmail.com wrote: On 21 August 2012 19:44, birgitte...@yahoo.com wrote: Utilitarian work = uncopyrightable Only

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Copyright on Xrays

2012-08-22 Thread Thomas Dalton
On 21 August 2012 19:44, birgitte...@yahoo.com wrote: In most cases ( Covering the significant majority of all x-rays existing, but not ruling out the possibility of rare uses of X-ray photography as an artistic medium) . . . 7 None of the above Utilitarian work = uncopyrightable

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Copyright on Xrays

2012-08-22 Thread Anthony
On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 2:37 PM, geni geni...@gmail.com wrote: In the case of the US we can consider the constitutional basis of copyright To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Copyright on Xrays

2012-08-22 Thread Anthony
On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 2:47 PM, Thomas Dalton thomas.dal...@gmail.com wrote: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Upperarm.jpg That photo, according to the licenses on that page, has copyright. Do you disagree? It possibly has a very thin copyright. And even that very thin copyright would

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Copyright on Xrays

2012-08-22 Thread Anthony
On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 2:47 PM, Thomas Dalton thomas.dal...@gmail.com wrote: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Upperarm.jpg http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Arm.agr.jpg would probably be a better example. There's a good chance that wouldn't be considered copyrightable under US law.

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Copyright on Xrays

2012-08-22 Thread Todd Allen
On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 1:54 PM, Anthony wikim...@inbox.org wrote: On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 2:47 PM, Thomas Dalton thomas.dal...@gmail.com wrote: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Upperarm.jpg http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Arm.agr.jpg would probably be a better example.

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Copyright on Xrays

2012-08-22 Thread Thomas Dalton
On 22 August 2012 20:50, Anthony wikim...@inbox.org wrote: It possibly has a very thin copyright. Copyright doesn't have thickness. Either it is copyrightable or it isn't. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Copyright on Xrays

2012-08-22 Thread Anthony
On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 4:15 PM, Todd Allen toddmal...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 1:54 PM, Anthony wikim...@inbox.org wrote: On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 2:47 PM, Thomas Dalton thomas.dal...@gmail.com wrote: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Upperarm.jpg

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Copyright on Xrays

2012-08-22 Thread Anthony
On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 5:41 PM, Anthony wikim...@inbox.org wrote: On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 5:25 PM, Thomas Dalton thomas.dal...@gmail.com wrote: On 22 August 2012 20:50, Anthony wikim...@inbox.org wrote: It possibly has a very thin copyright. Copyright doesn't have thickness. Either it is

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Copyright on Xrays

2012-08-21 Thread Birgitte_sb
On Aug 20, 2012, at 6:08 AM, James Heilman jmh...@gmail.com wrote: A question about copyright, who owns the copyright on Xrays and are they even copyrightable? I have uploaded a few of them and no one seems to know the answer. I guess the options would be: 1) They are in the public

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Copyright on Xrays

2012-08-21 Thread geni
On 21 August 2012 19:44, birgitte...@yahoo.com wrote: Utilitarian work = uncopyrightable Only under a fairly limited number of legal systems. -- geni ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Copyright on Xrays

2012-08-21 Thread Todd Allen
On Tue, Aug 21, 2012 at 1:19 PM, geni geni...@gmail.com wrote: On 21 August 2012 19:44, birgitte...@yahoo.com wrote: Utilitarian work = uncopyrightable Only under a fairly limited number of legal systems. -- geni ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list

[Wikimedia-l] Copyright on Xrays

2012-08-20 Thread James Heilman
A question about copyright, who owns the copyright on Xrays and are they even copyrightable? I have uploaded a few of them and no one seems to know the answer. I guess the options would be: 1) They are in the public domain https://open.umich.edu/wiki/Casebook#Radiograph_.28X-Ray.29 and

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Copyright on Xrays

2012-08-20 Thread Thomas Morton
2) The X ray tech who took the image 3) The person / institution who paid to have the image taken a) The HMO or patient if in the USA b) The government if in many parts of the world 4) The doctor who ordered the image 5) The doctor who read the image 6) The hospital / shareholders of

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Copyright on Xrays

2012-08-20 Thread Thomas Dalton
On 20 August 2012 12:08, James Heilman jmh...@gmail.com wrote: A question about copyright, who owns the copyright on Xrays and are they even copyrightable? I have uploaded a few of them and no one seems to know the answer. I guess the options would be: Why is it any different to any other work

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Copyright on Xrays

2012-08-20 Thread David Gerard
I'm sure that collectively we can bloviate with the best of 'em on the topic - but do we have any case law whatsoever anywhere on the topic that might give real-world pointers? - d. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Copyright on Xrays

2012-08-20 Thread Anthony
On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 7:47 AM, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: I'm sure that collectively we can bloviate with the best of 'em on the topic - but do we have any case law whatsoever anywhere on the topic that might give real-world pointers? It's a question of fact, not a question of

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Copyright on Xrays

2012-08-20 Thread David Gerard
On 20 August 2012 12:50, Anthony wikim...@inbox.org wrote: On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 7:47 AM, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: I'm sure that collectively we can bloviate with the best of 'em on the topic - but do we have any case law whatsoever anywhere on the topic that might give

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Copyright on Xrays

2012-08-20 Thread Tomasz Ganicz
2012/8/20 David Gerard dger...@gmail.com: On 20 August 2012 12:50, Anthony wikim...@inbox.org wrote: On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 7:47 AM, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: I'm sure that collectively we can bloviate with the best of 'em on the topic - but do we have any case law whatsoever

[Wikimedia-l] Copyright on Xrays

2012-08-20 Thread James Heilman
@ Tomasz: Per a) if the picture is taken automatically by machine in routine way (in case of X-ray, NMR and some other techinques this is usually atomatic and routine) - they are not copyrightable, as this is not any creative work. This is my understanding. X rays are taken in the exact same way

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Copyright on Xrays

2012-08-20 Thread Max Harmony
2012/8/20 Anthony wikim...@inbox.org: Under US law (I know very little about the law of other countries): Unless the patient somehow contributed creatively to the image (broke his bones in a certain creative pattern), it's certainly not the HMO or patient. If the X-ray tech is an employee,

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Copyright on Xrays

2012-08-20 Thread Tomasz Ganicz
2012/8/20 Max Harmony m...@sdf.lonestar.org: 2012/8/20 Anthony wikim...@inbox.org: Under US law (I know very little about the law of other countries): Unless the patient somehow contributed creatively to the image (broke his bones in a certain creative pattern), it's certainly not the HMO or

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Copyright on Xrays

2012-08-20 Thread Anthony
On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 8:03 AM, James Heilman jmh...@gmail.com wrote: @ Tomasz: Per a) if the picture is taken automatically by machine in routine way (in case of X-ray, NMR and some other techinques this is usually atomatic and routine) - they are not copyrightable, as this is not any

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Copyright on Xrays

2012-08-20 Thread Cynthia Ashley-Nelson
In the US, the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act of 1996 (HIPAA) governs release of medical information, which includes any medium, including spoken, written, or electronically stored. This includes videos, photographs, and x-rays. The only person legally entitled to release this

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Copyright on Xrays

2012-08-20 Thread Nathan
On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 1:27 PM, Cynthia Ashley-Nelson cindam...@gmail.comwrote: In the US, the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act of 1996 (HIPAA) governs release of medical information, which includes any medium, including spoken, written, or electronically stored. This

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Copyright on Xrays

2012-08-20 Thread Thomas Dalton
On 20 August 2012 18:27, Cynthia Ashley-Nelson cindam...@gmail.com wrote: In the US, the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act of 1996 (HIPAA) governs release of medical information, which includes any medium, including spoken, written, or electronically stored. This includes

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Copyright on Xrays

2012-08-20 Thread Sage Ross
On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 3:17 PM, geni geni...@gmail.com wrote: On 20 August 2012 12:52, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: On 20 August 2012 12:50, Anthony wikim...@inbox.org wrote: On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 7:47 AM, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: I'm sure that collectively we can

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Copyright on Xrays

2012-08-20 Thread Nathan
On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 3:37 PM, Sage Ross ragesoss+wikipe...@gmail.comwrote: I'd say, whatever the copyright status, she'd risk her job by distributing something like X-rays without going through the IRB system. And if she got IRB permission, asserting PD status or copyleft status or

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Copyright on Xrays

2012-08-20 Thread Sage Ross
On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 4:04 PM, Nathan nawr...@gmail.com wrote: It's relevant for Wikipedia, at least. I don't think the projects take a view on whether someone is risking their job or following institutional policies. Right. But it's worth mentioning... especially if the projects did take

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Copyright on Xrays

2012-08-20 Thread Etienne Beaule
My opinion on X-rays. If done in private property, it is subject to personality rights, and if in a public area, then it can be copyrighted by the the person who took the X-ray. Ebe123 On 2012-08-20 5:17 PM, Sage Ross ragesoss+wikipe...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 4:04 PM,

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Copyright on Xrays

2012-08-20 Thread Michael Peel
to the list. Please be aware that all messages to this list are archived and viewable for the public. If you have a confidential communication to make, please rather email i...@wikimedia.org Thank you. From: Michael Peel em...@mikepeel.net Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Copyright on Xrays Date

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Copyright on Xrays

2012-08-20 Thread James Heilman
The WMF legal team has said they would provide an opinion on this question some time next week. The law is ambiguous and I guess the real question is how much is the foundation willing to put their neck out. -- James Heilman MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian The Wikipedia Open Textbook of Medicine

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Copyright on Xrays

2012-08-20 Thread Ray Saintonge
On 08/20/12 12:17 PM, geni wrote: On 20 August 2012 12:52, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: On 20 August 2012 12:50, Anthony wikim...@inbox.org wrote: On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 7:47 AM, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: I'm sure that collectively we can bloviate with the best of 'em

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Copyright on Xrays

2012-08-20 Thread Ray Saintonge
On 08/20/12 2:01 PM, Michael Peel wrote: OK, so the moderation of this mailing list appears to be broken (surely such emails should at least be held for approval by a moderator?). But please see my previous email (which I sent after hitting the 'reply' button)… Thanks, Mike It seems like a

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Copyright on Xrays

2012-08-20 Thread George Herbert
Was this long thread launched by an actual on-wiki (or off-wiki) Wikipedia or other WMF project issue with medical imaging images? ... Pardon if it would be obvious should I actually check AN or some such, but I've been busy all weekend and today. -george On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 5:39 PM, Ray

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Copyright on Xrays

2012-08-20 Thread Ray Saintonge
On 08/20/12 10:27 AM, Cynthia Ashley-Nelson wrote: In the US, the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act of 1996 (HIPAA) governs release of medical information, which includes any medium, including spoken, written, or electronically stored. This includes videos, photographs, and

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Copyright on Xrays

2012-08-20 Thread Matthew Bowker
Hi, all. I believe Mike was commenting on the fact that his message was bounced back (because of an email funky) and not the topic itself. In fact, I've been caught by that exact same filter myself. Sorry if I've read your message wrong. Matthew Bowker User:Matthewrbowker On Aug 20, 2012,