Re: [Wikimedia-l] Disabe Media Viewer for non-logged-in users and logged-in users on Wikimedia Commons

[Gilles Dubuc]

Steinsplitter, if you're interested in reviving this, please have the
intellectual honesty of running the RfC again and publicizing it widely. As
others already pointed out, the context of that RfC is nothing like today.
Not only Media Viewer itself changed a lot, with many fixes based on direct
community feedback, but the very people who expressed their opinion in 2014
might have changed their views.

If anything, if you still get the same outcome now, you'll have a much
stronger case for what you're asking for.

On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 9:16 AM, rupert THURNER 
wrote:

> On Mar 14, 2016 23:47, "Fæ"  wrote:
> >
> > On 14 March 2016 at 22:12, Marc A. Pelletier  wrote:
> > > On 16-03-14 05:01 PM, Vi to wrote:
> > >> Ignoring a wide community
> > >> consensus is *always* a mistake.
> > >
> > > It is.  I never advocated otherwise.
> > >
> > > That old RfC, however, does not show a wide community consensus, let
> > > alone a consensus of the actually impacted community.
> > >
> > > -- Coren / Marc
> >
> > You could walk in the shoes of others, as Jimbo advocates, and you
> > could create an RFC to show whether users prefer it, rather than
> > putting the burden of proof onto a community that has already
> > established what it wanted.
>
> Marc just look at the German Wikipedia which recently voted for the switch
> on of visual editor. It was community driven and caused no stir.
>
> I really fail to understand that you guys always go down a confrontational
> path instead of inventing a solution so all users have the option to
> choose. Maybe a media tab or similar.
>
> Rupert
>
> Rupert
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Disabe Media Viewer for non-logged-in users and logged-in users on Wikimedia Commons

[rupert THURNER]

On Mar 14, 2016 23:47, "Fæ"  wrote:
>
> On 14 March 2016 at 22:12, Marc A. Pelletier  wrote:
> > On 16-03-14 05:01 PM, Vi to wrote:
> >> Ignoring a wide community
> >> consensus is *always* a mistake.
> >
> > It is.  I never advocated otherwise.
> >
> > That old RfC, however, does not show a wide community consensus, let
> > alone a consensus of the actually impacted community.
> >
> > -- Coren / Marc
>
> You could walk in the shoes of others, as Jimbo advocates, and you
> could create an RFC to show whether users prefer it, rather than
> putting the burden of proof onto a community that has already
> established what it wanted.

Marc just look at the German Wikipedia which recently voted for the switch
on of visual editor. It was community driven and caused no stir.

I really fail to understand that you guys always go down a confrontational
path instead of inventing a solution so all users have the option to
choose. Maybe a media tab or similar.

Rupert

Rupert
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Disabe Media Viewer for non-logged-in users and logged-in users on Wikimedia Commons

[Fæ]

On 14 March 2016 at 22:12, Marc A. Pelletier  wrote:
> On 16-03-14 05:01 PM, Vi to wrote:
>> Ignoring a wide community
>> consensus is *always* a mistake.
>
> It is.  I never advocated otherwise.
>
> That old RfC, however, does not show a wide community consensus, let
> alone a consensus of the actually impacted community.
>
> -- Coren / Marc

You could walk in the shoes of others, as Jimbo advocates, and you
could create an RFC to show whether users prefer it, rather than
putting the burden of proof onto a community that has already
established what it wanted. In fact, if you are creating the RFC then
you could make it jump through whatever hoops you would like to see to
"prove" whatever it is you think remains unproven, rather than
expecting some mug of a volunteer to guess what it is that might
satisfy your needs.

As for the reasoning that no community RFC is ever representative of
users, as users without an account never voted, this seems a basic
logical fallacy. There is no "us and them" with readers/viewers, as
all volunteers who happen to have an account are 100% readers and
viewers.

Thanks
Fae
-- 
fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Disabe Media Viewer for non-logged-in users and logged-in users on Wikimedia Commons

[Pete Forsyth]

In case anybody believes Wikimedia Foundation personnel have entirely
forgotten this issue, please be assured that is not the case.
https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T119595

Speaking for myself, I'm not convinced that taking action on a two year old
RFC at Commons is the most pressing component of this collection of issues
(though I understand and respect that others might feel differently).

I strongly agree with the principle that ignoring a request is far worse
than merely refusing to grant it. But I also feel that there is more
support for that perspective at the WMF these days than there has been
during the past two years. I think it's best if we all keep that
possibility in mind, as we make choices about what issues to bring up
again, and how to present them.

-Pete
[[User:Peteforsyth]]
(author of Letter to WMF on Superprotect and Media Viewer:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Letter_to_Wikimedia_Foundation:_Superprotect_and_Media_Viewer
)

On Mon, Mar 14, 2016 at 2:01 PM, Vi to  wrote:

> Oh I missed dates, this is a good point then. Ignoring a wide community
> consensus is *always* a mistake. Final decisions might even diverge from
> consensus but *ignoring* is the worst way.
>
> Vito
>
> 2016-03-14 21:31 GMT+01:00 Michael Peel :
>
> > That's a good point. I've started a discussion on Commons' VP about this
> > at:
> >
> >
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Village_pump#2014_RfC_for_the_Media_Viewer
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Mike
> >
> > > On 14 Mar 2016, at 17:03, Anthony Cole  wrote:
> > >
> > > That RFC is 20 months old. That media viewer is not today's media
> viewer.
> > >
> > > Anthony Cole
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mon, Mar 14, 2016 at 11:12 PM, Marc A. Pelletier 
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >> On 16-03-14 10:59 AM, Nathan wrote:
> > >>> the non-participation of
> > >>> non-participants can't render all decisions invalid.
> > >>
> > >> It rarely becomes a problem in practice; the vast majority of
> decisions
> > >> made on projects are editorial or internal management.
> > >>
> > >> In this particular case, there is a tiny segment of the editing
> > >> community making a sweeping UI decision that - by definition - doesn't
> > >> even affect *them*.
> > >>
> > >> That can't possibly be right.
> > >>
> > >> -- Marc
> > >>
> > >>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Disabe Media Viewer for non-logged-in users and logged-in users on Wikimedia Commons

[Vi to]

Oh I missed dates, this is a good point then. Ignoring a wide community
consensus is *always* a mistake. Final decisions might even diverge from
consensus but *ignoring* is the worst way.

Vito

2016-03-14 21:31 GMT+01:00 Michael Peel :

> That's a good point. I've started a discussion on Commons' VP about this
> at:
>
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Village_pump#2014_RfC_for_the_Media_Viewer
>
> Thanks,
> Mike
>
> > On 14 Mar 2016, at 17:03, Anthony Cole  wrote:
> >
> > That RFC is 20 months old. That media viewer is not today's media viewer.
> >
> > Anthony Cole
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Mar 14, 2016 at 11:12 PM, Marc A. Pelletier 
> > wrote:
> >
> >> On 16-03-14 10:59 AM, Nathan wrote:
> >>> the non-participation of
> >>> non-participants can't render all decisions invalid.
> >>
> >> It rarely becomes a problem in practice; the vast majority of decisions
> >> made on projects are editorial or internal management.
> >>
> >> In this particular case, there is a tiny segment of the editing
> >> community making a sweeping UI decision that - by definition - doesn't
> >> even affect *them*.
> >>
> >> That can't possibly be right.
> >>
> >> -- Marc
> >>
> >>
> >> ___
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Disabe Media Viewer for non-logged-in users and logged-in users on Wikimedia Commons

[Michael Peel]

That's a good point. I've started a discussion on Commons' VP about this at:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Village_pump#2014_RfC_for_the_Media_Viewer

Thanks,
Mike

> On 14 Mar 2016, at 17:03, Anthony Cole  wrote:
> 
> That RFC is 20 months old. That media viewer is not today's media viewer.
> 
> Anthony Cole
> 
> 
> On Mon, Mar 14, 2016 at 11:12 PM, Marc A. Pelletier 
> wrote:
> 
>> On 16-03-14 10:59 AM, Nathan wrote:
>>> the non-participation of
>>> non-participants can't render all decisions invalid.
>> 
>> It rarely becomes a problem in practice; the vast majority of decisions
>> made on projects are editorial or internal management.
>> 
>> In this particular case, there is a tiny segment of the editing
>> community making a sweeping UI decision that - by definition - doesn't
>> even affect *them*.
>> 
>> That can't possibly be right.
>> 
>> -- Marc
>> 
>> 
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Disabe Media Viewer for non-logged-in users and logged-in users on Wikimedia Commons

[Todd Allen]

I won't take a position on this particular issue, since I rarely visit
Commons, but "Ignore all rules" should categorically not be taken as
"Ignore consensus" or "Ignore other editors". That way lies madness.
On Mar 14, 2016 2:11 PM, "Philippe Beaudette"  wrote:

> Consensus can and should be ignored when it is detrimental to improving the
> end product.  https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Ignore_all_rules is an
> applicable cite, I think.  It's even categorized as global.
>
> On Mon, Mar 14, 2016 at 12:31 PM, Vi to  wrote:
>
> > Same with consensus from logged-out users to implement MV.
> >
> > I have no strong feelings about the issue (anons shouldn't be affected by
> > MV side effects but also MV is almost useless on Commons) but well,
> > consensus cannot be ignored.
> >
> > Vito
> >
> > 2016-03-14 15:28 GMT+01:00 Marc A. Pelletier :
> >
> > > On 16-03-14 10:24 AM, Steinsplitter Wiki wrote:
> > > > I request the Wikimedia Foundation to disable Media Viewer for logged
> > > out users as well. There is consensus to do so. Please respect
> community
> > > consensus.
> > >
> > > Really?  You have consensus from logged out users?  How did you
> > > ascertain that?
> > >
> > > Or did you mean that you have consensus from a community that is
> > > explicitly not affected by the feature to turn it off for people other
> > > than themselves?
> > >
> > > -- Coren / Marc
> > >
> > >
> > > ___
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> > >
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> >
>
>
>
> --
>
>
> Philippe Beaudette
>
> phili...@beaudette.me
> 415-275-1424
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Disabe Media Viewer for non-logged-in users and logged-in users on Wikimedia Commons

[Philippe Beaudette]

Consensus can and should be ignored when it is detrimental to improving the
end product.  https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Ignore_all_rules is an
applicable cite, I think.  It's even categorized as global.

On Mon, Mar 14, 2016 at 12:31 PM, Vi to  wrote:

> Same with consensus from logged-out users to implement MV.
>
> I have no strong feelings about the issue (anons shouldn't be affected by
> MV side effects but also MV is almost useless on Commons) but well,
> consensus cannot be ignored.
>
> Vito
>
> 2016-03-14 15:28 GMT+01:00 Marc A. Pelletier :
>
> > On 16-03-14 10:24 AM, Steinsplitter Wiki wrote:
> > > I request the Wikimedia Foundation to disable Media Viewer for logged
> > out users as well. There is consensus to do so. Please respect community
> > consensus.
> >
> > Really?  You have consensus from logged out users?  How did you
> > ascertain that?
> >
> > Or did you mean that you have consensus from a community that is
> > explicitly not affected by the feature to turn it off for people other
> > than themselves?
> >
> > -- Coren / Marc
> >
> >
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> >
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>



-- 


Philippe Beaudette

phili...@beaudette.me
415-275-1424
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Disabe Media Viewer for non-logged-in users and logged-in users on Wikimedia Commons

[Vi to]

Same with consensus from logged-out users to implement MV.

I have no strong feelings about the issue (anons shouldn't be affected by
MV side effects but also MV is almost useless on Commons) but well,
consensus cannot be ignored.

Vito

2016-03-14 15:28 GMT+01:00 Marc A. Pelletier :

> On 16-03-14 10:24 AM, Steinsplitter Wiki wrote:
> > I request the Wikimedia Foundation to disable Media Viewer for logged
> out users as well. There is consensus to do so. Please respect community
> consensus.
>
> Really?  You have consensus from logged out users?  How did you
> ascertain that?
>
> Or did you mean that you have consensus from a community that is
> explicitly not affected by the feature to turn it off for people other
> than themselves?
>
> -- Coren / Marc
>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Disabe Media Viewer for non-logged-in users and logged-in users on Wikimedia Commons

[Anthony Cole]

That RFC is 20 months old. That media viewer is not today's media viewer.

Anthony Cole


On Mon, Mar 14, 2016 at 11:12 PM, Marc A. Pelletier 
wrote:

> On 16-03-14 10:59 AM, Nathan wrote:
> > the non-participation of
> > non-participants can't render all decisions invalid.
>
> It rarely becomes a problem in practice; the vast majority of decisions
> made on projects are editorial or internal management.
>
> In this particular case, there is a tiny segment of the editing
> community making a sweeping UI decision that - by definition - doesn't
> even affect *them*.
>
> That can't possibly be right.
>
> -- Marc
>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Disabe Media Viewer for non-logged-in users and logged-in users on Wikimedia Commons

[reachout2isaac]

While this might be a valid request, I'm a bit concern about the % of the 
participants in the RFC. I don't think it's a good idea for this % of 
participant to make a binding decision for an entirely disjoint community many 
hundred if not thousand times it size with neither participation nor even 
consultation. This seem like a Kangaroo RFC to me. Consult the larger 
community, reach a consensus then return here for implementation.

Best,

Olatunde Isaac.
Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless handheld from Glo Mobile.

-Original Message-
From: "Marc A. Pelletier" 
Sender: "Wikimedia-l" Date: Mon, 14 
Mar 2016 10:40:54 
To: 
Reply-To: Wikimedia Mailing List 
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Disabe Media Viewer for non-logged-in users and
 logged-in users on Wikimedia Commons

On 16-03-14 10:33 AM, Steinsplitter Wiki wrote:
> Per commons Policy's the RFC is valid.

Then the policy is broken.  It seems more than a little insane to me
that an opinion poll having had participation of a few % of a small
community (active commons users) can make a binding decision for an
entirely disjoint community many hundred times it size with neither
participation nor even consultation.

At the very least, the opinion of logged out users should be sought or
at least vaguely estimated in some manner (I can think of several easy
client-side ways of doing a quick opinion poll of at least a sample of
them; or a couple of metrics giving hints).

That RfC is akin to asking the print newspaper owners about making new
rules for all web sites.  While I've no doubt that their collective
opinions would be very good for them, I'd like something a bit more
objective.  :-)

-- Coren / Marc


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Disabe Media Viewer for non-logged-in users and logged-in users on Wikimedia Commons

[Nathan]

On Mon, Mar 14, 2016 at 10:40 AM, Marc A. Pelletier 
wrote:

> On 16-03-14 10:33 AM, Steinsplitter Wiki wrote:
> > Per commons Policy's the RFC is valid.
>
> Then the policy is broken.  It seems more than a little insane to me
> that an opinion poll having had participation of a few % of a small
> community (active commons users) can make a binding decision for an
> entirely disjoint community many hundred times it size with neither
> participation nor even consultation.
>
> At the very least, the opinion of logged out users should be sought or
> at least vaguely estimated in some manner (I can think of several easy
> client-side ways of doing a quick opinion poll of at least a sample of
> them; or a couple of metrics giving hints).
>
> That RfC is akin to asking the print newspaper owners about making new
> rules for all web sites.  While I've no doubt that their collective
> opinions would be very good for them, I'd like something a bit more
> objective.  :-)
>
> -- Coren / Marc
>

Marc, that is how the policies work all over. Non-editing readers have
generally (with some exceptions) not participated in the crafting or
revision of policies or consensus-based decision-making. Anyone who thinks
the reader perspective hasn't been adequately considered should contribute
that point of view to the discussion, but the non-participation of
non-participants can't render all decisions invalid.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Disabe Media Viewer for non-logged-in users and logged-in users on Wikimedia Commons

[Steinsplitter Wiki]

Per commons Policy's the RFC is valid.

> To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> From: m...@uberbox.org
> Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2016 10:28:25 -0400
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Disabe Media Viewer for non-logged-in users and 
> logged-in users on Wikimedia Commons
> 
> On 16-03-14 10:24 AM, Steinsplitter Wiki wrote:
> > I request the Wikimedia Foundation to disable Media Viewer for logged out 
> > users as well. There is consensus to do so. Please respect community 
> > consensus.
> 
> Really?  You have consensus from logged out users?  How did you
> ascertain that?
> 
> Or did you mean that you have consensus from a community that is
> explicitly not affected by the feature to turn it off for people other
> than themselves?
> 
> -- Coren / Marc
> 
> 
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[Wikimedia-l] Disabe Media Viewer for non-logged-in users and logged-in users on Wikimedia Commons

[Steinsplitter Wiki]

To whom it may concern,

Pursuant to consensus at Commons:Requests for comment/Media Viewer software 
feature the Media Viewer must be switches off for logged in users and logged 
out users. The current status is that the feature has been only disabled for 
logged in user. This tool is not needed on Wikimedia Commons, it makes commons 
hard to use.

I request the Wikimedia Foundation to disable Media Viewer for logged out users 
as well. There is consensus to do so. Please respect community consensus.

Regards,
Steinsplitter

[1] 
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Requests_for_comment/Media_Viewer_software_feature
  
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