Re: [Wikimedia-l] Introducing the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list

2015-11-03 Thread Laurentius
At the end, is that mailing list currently active? If it is, are you asking affiliates to join, or are affiliates expected to contact you? Laurentius Il giorno ven, 16/10/2015 alle 00.04 +0300, Carlos M. Colina ha scritto: > Dear all, > > On behalf of the Affiliations Committe, I am pleased to

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Introducing the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list

2015-11-03 Thread Chris Keating
Since October 27th there have been 3 threads, all started by the same person, with a total of 5 posts . None of which said anything at all confidential. :) Chris On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 8:17 AM, Laurentius wrote: > At the end, is that mailing list currently active? >

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Introducing the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list

2015-11-03 Thread Gnangarra
appologies, yeah its the Affcom list not the Affiliates list, multiple email from you on both this morning didnt notice the email address change so my appologies again On 4 November 2015 at 07:33, Gregory Varnum wrote: > I have not seen any moderated messages - but

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Introducing the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list

2015-11-03 Thread Gregory Varnum
I have not seen any moderated messages - but will check. That is not intentional. Perhaps the moderated message you are referring to is from your email to AffCom? -greg ___ Sent from my iPhone - a more detailed response may be sent later. > On Nov 3, 2015, at 6:31 PM, Gnangarra

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Introducing the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list

2015-11-03 Thread Gnangarra
just an observation, I tried responding to a discussion on that list, now I've already jumped through the ID hoops and shown I'm part of an affiliate yet my messages are moderated, to me that seams kind of point;less, like to cause disjointed discussion, give the impression that the list is

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Introducing the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list

2015-11-03 Thread Gregory Varnum
My fault for reusing the subject line. :) -greg ___ Sent from my iPhone - a more detailed response may be sent later. > On Nov 3, 2015, at 6:39 PM, Gnangarra wrote: > > appologies, yeah its the Affcom list not the Affiliates list, multiple > email from you on

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Introducing the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list

2015-11-03 Thread Gregory Varnum
We are still contacting affiliates to invite them to join. So far we have used mailing lists and MassMessage to contact affiliates. Since many of them are not on this list, it is tricky tracking them all down (partly why this list is being created). As it turns out - more heard from the

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Introducing the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list

2015-10-21 Thread Ilario Valdelli
I will be simple like explaining it to a baby. On 21.10.2015 16:29, Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton wrote: How about less provocations, attempts to breakdown the conversation with violence, and support our idea in a civilized manner ? So " it's not good to give publicly comments on the candidates.",

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Introducing the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list

2015-10-21 Thread Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton
That's the spirit of Wikimedia Movement, censorship... I was talking about the list, you said: " it's not good to give publicly comments on the candidates." and I asked why, you decided not answer. And you know that AffCom screwed WMBR, so don't come with "If you are member of a chapter, please

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Introducing the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list

2015-10-21 Thread Ilario Valdelli
The spirit of the Wikimedia Movement I suppose is to be "respectful" of each person. There is the freedom to be informed, there is the freedom of the opinion but these freedoms have limits and the limits are set where another freedom starts because I think that it's clear that there are other

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Introducing the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list

2015-10-21 Thread Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton
How about less provocations, attempts to breakdown the conversation with violence, and support our idea in a civilized manner ? So " it's not good to give publicly comments on the candidates.", why do you think that? I am not understanding your affirmation, because you did not offer any argument

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Introducing the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list

2015-10-21 Thread Ilario Valdelli
If you are member of a chapter, please ask internally to your chapter, not to me. Before participating to this thread I was really clear: please address any comment of the affiliated selected board seats in another place. Here we are speaking of the mailing list. It means that, following my

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Introducing the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list

2015-10-21 Thread Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton
*q.e.d.* no arguments, nothing more to add, just ''ad hominem'', and provocations. On 21 October 2015 at 13:08, Ilario Valdelli wrote: > I will be simple like explaining it to a baby. > > On 21.10.2015 16:29, Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton wrote: > >> How about less provocations,

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Introducing the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list

2015-10-21 Thread Gnangarra
" it's not good to give publicly comments on the candidates." Why is that > so? > And candidates? To what? ​To answer that second part first where ever the affiliates as group are represented by an individual. The first part is simple privacy and doing no harm to that individual ​ On 21

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Introducing the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list

2015-10-21 Thread Samuel Klein
Chris writes: > My preferred option would be to either ditch the Chapters mailing list or > make it announce-only, scrap Internal-l entirely, and have an "affiliates" > list that is open. There is room for a private list that's only for confidential topics; but the right list for that may already

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Introducing the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list

2015-10-21 Thread Nathan
The purpose of "privacy" on a mailing list with hundreds of subscribers is to avoid easy scrutiny and to bar participation from those who aren't an approved member of the club. Note that affiliates can't simply add subscribers; they have to request them. So the questions are - is a private club

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Introducing the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list

2015-10-21 Thread Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton
This do not answers any of my questions... opacity even in the talk, the via will not make any difference. On 21 October 2015 at 10:43, Ilario Valdelli wrote: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate-selected_Board_seats > > > On 21.10.2015 14:09, Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Introducing the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list

2015-10-21 Thread Ilario Valdelli
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate-selected_Board_seats On 21.10.2015 14:09, Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton wrote: " it's not good to give publicly comments on the candidates." Why is that so? And candidates? To what? On 21 October 2015 at 06:12, Ilario Valdelli wrote:

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Introducing the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list

2015-10-21 Thread Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton
" it's not good to give publicly comments on the candidates." Why is that so? And candidates? To what? On 21 October 2015 at 06:12, Ilario Valdelli wrote: > Exactly, the problem is the manageability. > > At the moment chapters list is more or less manageable because it needs

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Introducing the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list

2015-10-21 Thread Gnangarra
the proliferation of lists is also an issue as someone who's been on a chapter committee for 2 years and going into my third finding the right lists to join is a problem. When you rely solely on electronic means of contact you never get the knowledge of the where discussions are taking place and

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Introducing the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list

2015-10-21 Thread Ilario Valdelli
Exactly, the problem is the manageability. At the moment chapters list is more or less manageable because it needs few subscribers per chapter. The chapters mailing list must be kept "private" because it's not good to give publicly comments on the candidates. The need of privacy is

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Introducing the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list

2015-10-20 Thread Romaine Wiki
I do question why some members from the community should be involved in chapter/affiliates issues. If affiliates want to communicate with each other, without interference from individual users, they had no way to do such until this list was created. And there is no transparency reduction. The

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Introducing the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list

2015-10-20 Thread Romaine Wiki
Ow yes, I remember a affiliate specific issue that was not handled appropriate by some users from outside any affiliate. And also this discussion here doesn't give a comfortable feeling (in my opinion) to affiliates to do (always) a public discussion. If I as affiliate member, want to have

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Introducing the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list

2015-10-20 Thread Ilario Valdelli
On 20.10.2015 23:40, Romaine Wiki wrote: I do question why some members from the community should be involved in chapter/affiliates issues. If affiliates want to communicate with each other, without interference from individual users, they had no way to do such until this list was created. And

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Introducing the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list

2015-10-20 Thread Craig Franklin
Hi All, One thing I think that is missing from this discussion is that if people want to collaborate internally, they will collaborate internally. If there isn't a mailing list available to do that, it will simply be done through other means, be that private email, instant messaging, etcetera.

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Introducing the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list

2015-10-20 Thread Risker
On 20 October 2015 at 18:00, Romaine Wiki wrote: > Ow yes, I remember a affiliate specific issue that was not handled > appropriate by some users from outside any affiliate. > > And also this discussion here doesn't give a comfortable feeling (in my > opinion) to

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Introducing the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list

2015-10-20 Thread Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton
Sorry, we already have chapters-list (that did not had a have flux) that is "private", and the knowledge there (I know, barely nothing) could be used to the Aff, but it's private... The volume of discussions demanding an opacity is... none! Documents will not be shared at mailing lists, and

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Introducing the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list

2015-10-19 Thread Carlos M. Colina
Like Greg explained, the request to have such a list came *from the affiliates* themselves. So why force it to become another wikimedia-l? M. El 19/10/2015 a las 09:21 p.m., Gregory Varnum escribió: There has already been discussion amongst some affiliates about this issue (including one on

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Introducing the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list

2015-10-19 Thread Ilario Valdelli
Hi all, I support Chris' arguments and I would add some points. As administrator of the chapters mailing list I think that the best is to recover some "historical memory", which is never regrettable. Considering that we are going to celebrate several year of birthday of Wikipedia or of

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Introducing the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list

2015-10-19 Thread Gregory Varnum
Again - I do not feel comfortable making this decision on behalf of the affiliates. I will pass all of this along to them when we have a list going enough to discuss such things. If the consensus from the community is that a change be imposed on this list, which I agree is the right of the

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Introducing the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list

2015-10-19 Thread Gregory Varnum
There has already been discussion amongst some affiliates about this issue (including one on Meta-Wiki) - which is where this comes from. I suggest we leave it private for now and see what the affiliates on the list would like to do. I disagree with your sentiment that none of the 10 points

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Introducing the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list

2015-10-19 Thread Chris Keating
Looking at the current (private) chapters' list, for at least a year 90%+ of the traffic has been announcements that were cross-posted to Wikimedia-l. The other 10% is invitations and requests addressed to "chapters people" that might be boring to most people on wikimedia-l but could have been

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Introducing the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list

2015-10-19 Thread Ed Erhart
You've set up a strawman argument, Greg, and your solution is suboptimal. This is a community issue, as SJ correctly notes, and it should be discussed with the community. Leaving it private "for now" and polling the list affiliates (or going back to a virtually unknown Meta page) is going to

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Introducing the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list

2015-10-19 Thread Gregory Varnum
Chris - and I suspect others - who are already welcome to join this list - are why I think it is not a foregone conclusion that it will be kept private. Remember that we have a diverse group of 80+ affiliates. It may in fact not be that the will of the ones who requested it represents the will

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Introducing the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list

2015-10-19 Thread Keegan Peterzell
On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 2:17 PM, Gregory Varnum wrote: > Chris - and I suspect others - who are already welcome to join this list - > are why I think it is not a foregone conclusion that it will be kept > private. > > Remember that we have a diverse group of 80+

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Introducing the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list

2015-10-19 Thread Sam Klein
+1 for public archives to start. Private lists are almost never made public later, even where there's no need for privacy. A more transparent alternative is to make any list publicly-archived (archives world-readable, even if membership and ability to post to the list is restricted), while

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Introducing the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list

2015-10-19 Thread Gregory Varnum
There was already a discussion on this list and its privacy: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_Affiliates_Network#Mailing_list_request_for_comment I suggest building on that rather

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Introducing the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list

2015-10-19 Thread Ed Erhart
I too question the need for a private mailing list. We should require more than a just a "consistent request" before we reduce transparency and create yet another walled garden away from the community. --Ed On Oct 16, 2015 12:07 AM, "Pine W" wrote: > Got it. Thanks Varnent.

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Introducing the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list

2015-10-19 Thread Gregory Varnum
Our current plan is to bring this up with the list once there is a good number of people on it. Given that the list is for affiliates, our feeling is that it is best for them to decide how they would like to use the list. If a structure is imposed on them, it is less likely they will use the

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Introducing the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list

2015-10-15 Thread Gregory Varnum
Hey Pine, As you know, AffCom started looking into this list after some discussions with affiliates in Berlin, Wikimania, and at that page you referred to. We did talk with that list’s moderators about potentially reusing that list (largely why the creation of this list took awhile). However,

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Introducing the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list

2015-10-15 Thread Neil P. Quinn
Carlos, Is there a reason why the list is private? The topics you mentioned—general affiliate discussion, regional conferences, blog post announcements, and so on—don't seem particularly sensitive. (I'm just curious. My WMF role has nothing to do with affiliates and I wouldn't subscribe to the

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Introducing the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list

2015-10-15 Thread Pine W
Got it. Thanks Varnent. Regarding the privacy question: I'm sort of thinking that if we really want to keep the new list private for legal or other reasons, it should be run outside of WMF servers like the chapters list is. On the other hand, if the purpose of the new list is to facilitate

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Introducing the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list

2015-10-15 Thread Pine W
Hi Carlos, Can you clarify how this list relates to the existing chapters mailing list? (Also, please see the discussion at https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_Affiliates_Network#Mailing_list_request_for_comment ). Thanks, Pine On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 2:04 PM, Carlos M. Colina

[Wikimedia-l] Introducing the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list

2015-10-15 Thread Carlos M. Colina
Dear all, On behalf of the Affiliations Committe, I am pleased to introduce the launch of the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list, which is basically a place for all the affiliates (chapters, thematic organizations, user groups) to discuss issues related to affiliates, make announcements to

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Introducing the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list

2015-10-15 Thread Gregory Varnum
Hey Neil, I’ll let Carlos add his thoughts, but basically, this was a consistent request from affiliates. So the short answer is that the target audience requested it, and we want them to use it. :) The page that Pine mentioned