Re: [Wikimedia-l] Language links and double language links on the Wikipedias
Ziko, it does not jeopardize the Wikidata goal -- the current language link system won't be switched off, but can be further used. Everything that is working currently will still be possible afterwards. Wikidata can still be used to represent the 99.2% of language links that are simple -- this would still be a huge improvement over the current state. As soon as these are out of the way, we can think about if and how to extend the system in order to deal with the rest. Cheers, Denny 2012/6/25 Ziko van Dijk vand...@wmnederland.nl: Hello, So may I guess that double links are usually the result of a Wikipedian who was not sure which language link to set, so in doubt, he simply put in the language links for two different articles? And in general, is it imagineable that different languages divide the knowledge in different ways, which could jeopardize the whole goal of Wikidata unifiying the language links? Kind regards Ziko 2012/6/25 Delirium delir...@hackish.org: Thanks for this list. For the languages I know, I've started going through and fixing ones that are clearly wrong. If a number of people do that, that should improve the general quality/consistency of interwiki links. I second the other comment that it'd be nice if the parsing could be re-run to exclude commented-out links, but the list is still useful as is. There are some difficult cases, though, when languages make different choices on how to group subjects, so the articles aren't actually in 1-to-1 correspondence. For example, the English article [[en: Móði and Magni]] unsurprisingly has two outgoing interwiki links, when linking to languages that split them, such as [[da:Magni]] and [[da:Modi]]. It's not clear what to do about these cases. Best, Mark On 6/25/12 12:29 PM, Denny Vrandečić wrote: Hi all, I ran some analysis last week, to get some numbers out of the Wikipedia language links. One type of reports that were generated was the list of all articles in the main namespaces of the Wikipedias that link to more than one article in another language edition of Wikipedia (so called double language links). There are not that many of them (about 19,000 in total), split by language, all available here: http://simia.net/languagelinks/ Double language links are not errors per se, but they contain a few nuisances * they lead to two links in the language links list that just look the same (you have to hover over them to see that they link to different languages), which is not really optimal from the user experience side * they are not saved in the langlinks table and thus are ignored in certain reports and also in the respective export I am not sure how to reach out to the respective Wikipedia communities, or if I should at all. Should I post to their respective version of the village pump? Remembering from the time I was active on the Croatian Wikipedia, I would have appreciated that list to check the entries. I reckoned the wikipedia-l list would be the right place, but that list looks rather dead. Cheers, Denny ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l -- --- Vereniging Wikimedia Nederland dr. Ziko van Dijk, voorzitter http://wmnederland.nl/ Wikimedia Nederland Postbus 167 3500 AD Utrecht --- ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l -- Project director Wikidata Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. | Obentrautstr. 72 | 10963 Berlin Tel. +49-30-219 158 26-0 | http://wikimedia.de Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V. Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Language links and double language links on the Wikipedias
Amir, thank you for the thoughtful reply! Indeed our current plan is a kind of a staged deployment in the sense that we will not automatically transfer the links but let the editor community do it. On our test systems we already see bots being tried out and rewritten, so we expect that as soon as Wikidata starts, we will see that transition happening. But the current language link system will continue to work, so no article or Wikipedia is forced to switch to the Wikidata system. Complex language links configurations can still be handled manually -- and maybe even easier so, since conflicts between bots and human editors should be less likely to happen. I hope that this is the right path to profit :) Cheers, Denny 2012/6/25 Amir E. Aharoni amir.ahar...@mail.huji.ac.il: Hi Denny, TL;DR: It's a very important question, but don't worry about it too much. Just do Wikidata well as it is currently planned. Now, the full reply. I wrote a bit of an essay about it in 2008: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Tips_for_resolving_interwiki_conflicts I also started a page to coordinate the efforts to resolve such conflicts: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Interwiki_synchronization It started out nicely, but didn't really scale, so I had no choice but to neglect it. There are two main reasons that it didn't scale: 1. Fixing interlanguage links conflicts is an exhausting manual process. The Interlanguage extension or Wikidata are supposed to make it centralized and easier. 2. Almost all Wikipedians are very, very reluctant about doing anything outside their home projects. So, Wikidata is supposed to resolve #1. Once it becomes active, #2 will kick in again. At this stage, all I can say is our old motto: Be Bold. There's a rumor about me, which says that I know a lot of languages. I don't; I'm just bold about trying to edit Wikipedias in languages that I don't know. Everybody can do it. Most of the time it turns out to be correct and people don't complain. Trying to talk to people about this on village pumps and using global message delivery is not very efficient. In many languages, even in some major ones, the village pumps are not as active as in English, and even when they are, people very often ignore messages in English. Anyway, my proposal is this: * As discussed at bug 15607 [1], the best strategy for rolling out centralized language links is to enable them in articles without conflicts and to leave articles with conflicts without any change at first. * After initial roll-out, a list of conflicts for every project should be created. That is, there should be one list of articles with conflicts in the English Wikipedia, another list for the Hebrew Wikipedia, another one for Croatian, etc. This will make it relatively more accessible for people, because it will look like a problem in their project. Most people like solving local problems more than global problems.[2] * Profit. I believe that this crowdsourcing model may work. It won't be immediately perfect or very fast. It's just a sensible start. [1] https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15607 [2] A technical implementation comment about the list of pages with conflicts: it will be most efficient, if it will be implemented as a special page in each project. If updating it immediately is too burdensome in terms of performance, it can be updated in batches every week or so. The reason it should be a special page is that it will look like an integrated site feature and that it will be easy to localize its interface. 2012/6/25 Denny Vrandečić denny.vrande...@wikimedia.de: Hi all, I ran some analysis last week, to get some numbers out of the Wikipedia language links. One type of reports that were generated was the list of all articles in the main namespaces of the Wikipedias that link to more than one article in another language edition of Wikipedia (so called double language links). There are not that many of them (about 19,000 in total), split by language, all available here: http://simia.net/languagelinks/ Double language links are not errors per se, but they contain a few nuisances * they lead to two links in the language links list that just look the same (you have to hover over them to see that they link to different languages), which is not really optimal from the user experience side * they are not saved in the langlinks table and thus are ignored in certain reports and also in the respective export I am not sure how to reach out to the respective Wikipedia communities, or if I should at all. Should I post to their respective version of the village pump? Remembering from the time I was active on the Croatian Wikipedia, I would have appreciated that list to check the entries. I reckoned the wikipedia-l list would be the right place, but that list looks rather dead. Cheers, Denny -- Project director Wikidata Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. | Obentrautstr. 72 |
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Language links and double language links on the Wikipedias
This number, 99.2% was also mentioned on the Berlin Hackathon. It sounds much higher than what my (very scientifically relevant, obviously) gut feeling tells me. Could you indicate where this number is coming from? On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 2:45 PM, Denny Vrandečić denny.vrande...@wikimedia.de wrote: Ziko, it does not jeopardize the Wikidata goal -- the current language link system won't be switched off, but can be further used. Everything that is working currently will still be possible afterwards. Wikidata can still be used to represent the 99.2% of language links that are simple -- this would still be a huge improvement over the current state. As soon as these are out of the way, we can think about if and how to extend the system in order to deal with the rest. Cheers, Denny 2012/6/25 Ziko van Dijk vand...@wmnederland.nl: Hello, So may I guess that double links are usually the result of a Wikipedian who was not sure which language link to set, so in doubt, he simply put in the language links for two different articles? And in general, is it imagineable that different languages divide the knowledge in different ways, which could jeopardize the whole goal of Wikidata unifiying the language links? Kind regards Ziko 2012/6/25 Delirium delir...@hackish.org: Thanks for this list. For the languages I know, I've started going through and fixing ones that are clearly wrong. If a number of people do that, that should improve the general quality/consistency of interwiki links. I second the other comment that it'd be nice if the parsing could be re-run to exclude commented-out links, but the list is still useful as is. There are some difficult cases, though, when languages make different choices on how to group subjects, so the articles aren't actually in 1-to-1 correspondence. For example, the English article [[en: Móði and Magni]] unsurprisingly has two outgoing interwiki links, when linking to languages that split them, such as [[da:Magni]] and [[da:Modi]]. It's not clear what to do about these cases. Best, Mark On 6/25/12 12:29 PM, Denny Vrandečić wrote: Hi all, I ran some analysis last week, to get some numbers out of the Wikipedia language links. One type of reports that were generated was the list of all articles in the main namespaces of the Wikipedias that link to more than one article in another language edition of Wikipedia (so called double language links). There are not that many of them (about 19,000 in total), split by language, all available here: http://simia.net/languagelinks/ Double language links are not errors per se, but they contain a few nuisances * they lead to two links in the language links list that just look the same (you have to hover over them to see that they link to different languages), which is not really optimal from the user experience side * they are not saved in the langlinks table and thus are ignored in certain reports and also in the respective export I am not sure how to reach out to the respective Wikipedia communities, or if I should at all. Should I post to their respective version of the village pump? Remembering from the time I was active on the Croatian Wikipedia, I would have appreciated that list to check the entries. I reckoned the wikipedia-l list would be the right place, but that list looks rather dead. Cheers, Denny ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l -- --- Vereniging Wikimedia Nederland dr. Ziko van Dijk, voorzitter http://wmnederland.nl/ Wikimedia Nederland Postbus 167 3500 AD Utrecht --- ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l -- Project director Wikidata Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. | Obentrautstr. 72 | 10963 Berlin Tel. +49-30-219 158 26-0 | http://wikimedia.de Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V. Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Language links and double language links on the Wikipedias
I got the number from Brent Hecht, a researcher at Northwestern, who has a number of great papers published on Wikipedia-related topics. CC-ing him, so he knows I am blam.., er, referencing him :) Cheers, Denny 2012/6/26 Martijn Hoekstra martijnhoeks...@gmail.com: This number, 99.2% was also mentioned on the Berlin Hackathon. It sounds much higher than what my (very scientifically relevant, obviously) gut feeling tells me. Could you indicate where this number is coming from? On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 2:45 PM, Denny Vrandečić denny.vrande...@wikimedia.de wrote: Ziko, it does not jeopardize the Wikidata goal -- the current language link system won't be switched off, but can be further used. Everything that is working currently will still be possible afterwards. Wikidata can still be used to represent the 99.2% of language links that are simple -- this would still be a huge improvement over the current state. As soon as these are out of the way, we can think about if and how to extend the system in order to deal with the rest. Cheers, Denny 2012/6/25 Ziko van Dijk vand...@wmnederland.nl: Hello, So may I guess that double links are usually the result of a Wikipedian who was not sure which language link to set, so in doubt, he simply put in the language links for two different articles? And in general, is it imagineable that different languages divide the knowledge in different ways, which could jeopardize the whole goal of Wikidata unifiying the language links? Kind regards Ziko 2012/6/25 Delirium delir...@hackish.org: Thanks for this list. For the languages I know, I've started going through and fixing ones that are clearly wrong. If a number of people do that, that should improve the general quality/consistency of interwiki links. I second the other comment that it'd be nice if the parsing could be re-run to exclude commented-out links, but the list is still useful as is. There are some difficult cases, though, when languages make different choices on how to group subjects, so the articles aren't actually in 1-to-1 correspondence. For example, the English article [[en: Móði and Magni]] unsurprisingly has two outgoing interwiki links, when linking to languages that split them, such as [[da:Magni]] and [[da:Modi]]. It's not clear what to do about these cases. Best, Mark On 6/25/12 12:29 PM, Denny Vrandečić wrote: Hi all, I ran some analysis last week, to get some numbers out of the Wikipedia language links. One type of reports that were generated was the list of all articles in the main namespaces of the Wikipedias that link to more than one article in another language edition of Wikipedia (so called double language links). There are not that many of them (about 19,000 in total), split by language, all available here: http://simia.net/languagelinks/ Double language links are not errors per se, but they contain a few nuisances * they lead to two links in the language links list that just look the same (you have to hover over them to see that they link to different languages), which is not really optimal from the user experience side * they are not saved in the langlinks table and thus are ignored in certain reports and also in the respective export I am not sure how to reach out to the respective Wikipedia communities, or if I should at all. Should I post to their respective version of the village pump? Remembering from the time I was active on the Croatian Wikipedia, I would have appreciated that list to check the entries. I reckoned the wikipedia-l list would be the right place, but that list looks rather dead. Cheers, Denny ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l -- --- Vereniging Wikimedia Nederland dr. Ziko van Dijk, voorzitter http://wmnederland.nl/ Wikimedia Nederland Postbus 167 3500 AD Utrecht --- ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l -- Project director Wikidata Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. | Obentrautstr. 72 | 10963 Berlin Tel. +49-30-219 158 26-0 | http://wikimedia.de Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V. Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Language links and double language links on the Wikipedias
One major problem with double language links I've encountered before was that they confuse interwiki bots and therefore break things. Several articles on the Cantonese Wikipedia (zh-yue.wp) pertaining to local political and cultural issues in the Cantonese-speaking world have __NOBOT__ on them simply because they have topic splits that are significantly different from other Wikipedias, and bot interwiki manipulation need to be prevented to maintain topic correspondence between languages. In short: double language links are a possible idea, but only if we can upgrade the interwiki bots first. On 25 June 2012 11:29, Denny Vrandečić denny.vrande...@wikimedia.de wrote: Hi all, I ran some analysis last week, to get some numbers out of the Wikipedia language links. One type of reports that were generated was the list of all articles in the main namespaces of the Wikipedias that link to more than one article in another language edition of Wikipedia (so called double language links). There are not that many of them (about 19,000 in total), split by language, all available here: http://simia.net/languagelinks/ Double language links are not errors per se, but they contain a few nuisances * they lead to two links in the language links list that just look the same (you have to hover over them to see that they link to different languages), which is not really optimal from the user experience side * they are not saved in the langlinks table and thus are ignored in certain reports and also in the respective export I am not sure how to reach out to the respective Wikipedia communities, or if I should at all. Should I post to their respective version of the village pump? Remembering from the time I was active on the Croatian Wikipedia, I would have appreciated that list to check the entries. I reckoned the wikipedia-l list would be the right place, but that list looks rather dead. Cheers, Denny -- Project director Wikidata Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. | Obentrautstr. 72 | 10963 Berlin Tel. +49-30-219 158 26-0 | http://wikimedia.de Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V. Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Language links and double language links on the Wikipedias
Hi All, Brent Hecht here :-) This has been a really interesting discussion, and I wanted to chime in with a few notes. The 99.2% is based on a quick script I wrote that looked at reciprocity among a sample of interlanguage links (ILLs) in 25 languages to address some questions that Denny and I brainstormed. It did not consider commented links, redirects, etc. However, in my lab’s published work that takes much more involved approaches to this problem, we also find that complex interlanguage link situations are the obvious minority, with simple 1:1 relationships being the norm. For instance, only 1% of connected components of the ILL graph (groups of articles linked together by ILLs) had more than one article per language edition in our 25-language dataset. There are some important details to note here. For instance, most connected components contain only one article (most concepts are covered by only a single language edition) and non-1:1 cases by definition involve more articles than 1:1 cases (all other things being equal). Also, general concepts of global interest are likely disproportionately represented in the non-1:1 situations (e.g. river, canal, high school, diplomacy). That said, given our data, I also think Denny is spot on with the “let’s start with the 1:1s” approach to building Wikidata, with solutions for more complex situations coming later. These solutions could be fascinating and important, but make sense as a second step, IMHO. Given that each language edition will be able to pick and choose from statements (last I checked, at least), this might provide additional flexibility as well, allowing greater variation to be included in the 1:1 model. If interested, I'd encourage folks to check out our CHI 2012 paper [1], as well as some excellent work done by Gerard de Melo and Gerhard Weikum that preceded us [3]. De Melo and Weikum establish an interesting taxonomy for causes of non-1:1 links: conceptual drift, different granularities, and mistakes made by editors. In my view, perhaps a greater problem is the one of missing interlanguage links, which I hope Wikidata’s popularity will help to solve. We’ve done some work to show that missing links can be somewhat substantial between certain language editions [2], although that was based on data from 2009. It's important to note, too, that some of the differences in coverage of a given concept across articles in different languages is addressed not with ILLs, but simply by describing concepts differently in each language edition. We call this sub-concept diversity, and it can be substantial [2]. Our CHI 2012 paper describes a system we built, Omnipedia, that allows folks to browse the content about a single concept in 25 language editions. We’re hoping to launch the system sometime soon, but we have some practical considerations to deal with first (funding, finishing my thesis, etc. :-)). Lastly, I've been digging into the social science of this stuff a bit lately and many folks believe that, as Ziko said, different languages divide knowledge in different ways (even apart from any effects introduced in the Wikipedia context specifically). For instance, the linguist Anna Wierzbicka talks about the granularity differences as cultural elaboration and has all sorts of fun examples in her book Understanding Cultures Through Their Keywords. You can also make arguments about this from a geographic perspective (my social science roots), psycholinguistics, and I'm sure other fields as well. This stuff perhaps explains some of the 1% of non-1:1 concepts, as well as some of the sub-concept diversity, although I am still brainstorming. In any case, hopefully this helps some! Happy to answer questions. Thanks again for a great discussion. - Brent p.s. Don't forget to support Denny and crew in the Knight News Challenge proposal :-) : http://newschallenge.tumblr.com/post/25575917516/wikidata-as-a-central-free-repository-of-identifiers Brent Hecht Ph.D. Candidate in Computer Science @ Northwestern University Asst. Prof. of Comp. Sci @ Univ. Minnesota beginning 2013 w: http://www.brenthecht.com e: br...@u.northwestern.edu t: @bhecht [1] Bao, P., Hecht, B., Carton, S., Quaderi, M., Horn, M. and Gergle, D. 2012. Omnipedia: Bridging the Wikipedia Language Gap. CHI ’12: 30th International Conference on Human Factors in Computing Systems (2012). [2] Hecht, B. and Gergle, D. 2010. The Tower of Babel Meets Web 2.0: User-Generated Content and Its Applications in a Multilingual Context. CHI ’10: 28th International Conference on Human Factors in Computing Systems (Atlanta, GA, 2010), 291–300. [3] de Melo, G. and Weikum, G. 2010. Untangling the Cross-Lingual Link Structure of Wikipedia. ACL ’10: 48th Annual Meeting of the Association for Computational Linguistics (Uppsala, Sweden, 2010). On Jun 26, 2012, at 7:56 AM, Denny Vrandečić wrote: I got the number from
[Wikimedia-l] Language links and double language links on the Wikipedias
Hi all, I ran some analysis last week, to get some numbers out of the Wikipedia language links. One type of reports that were generated was the list of all articles in the main namespaces of the Wikipedias that link to more than one article in another language edition of Wikipedia (so called double language links). There are not that many of them (about 19,000 in total), split by language, all available here: http://simia.net/languagelinks/ Double language links are not errors per se, but they contain a few nuisances * they lead to two links in the language links list that just look the same (you have to hover over them to see that they link to different languages), which is not really optimal from the user experience side * they are not saved in the langlinks table and thus are ignored in certain reports and also in the respective export I am not sure how to reach out to the respective Wikipedia communities, or if I should at all. Should I post to their respective version of the village pump? Remembering from the time I was active on the Croatian Wikipedia, I would have appreciated that list to check the entries. I reckoned the wikipedia-l list would be the right place, but that list looks rather dead. Cheers, Denny -- Project director Wikidata Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. | Obentrautstr. 72 | 10963 Berlin Tel. +49-30-219 158 26-0 | http://wikimedia.de Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V. Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Language links and double language links on the Wikipedias
Hi Denny, This is a really interesting list. Looking at the Hungarian list, I find that in many instances the duplicate interwiki link is actually commented out (in the form of !-- Source: [[en: something]] -- or !-- wrong interwikis: [[en: ..] [[fr: ..]] --), and not real duplicate links. (In some cases there are indeed duplicate links, where one concept covers two concepts in other languages.) Maybe you could refine your search algorithm to exclude commented out links, and improve your listing page by including not only the second interwiki link found for a given language, but also the first one, so it is easier to assess without having to check the article pages or source codes? In any case, the village pumps might be a good place to post a link to the lists. The Global message delivery system might help you in that: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Global_message_delivery Best regards, Bence On Mon, Jun 25, 2012 at 12:29 PM, Denny Vrandečić denny.vrande...@wikimedia.de wrote: Hi all, I ran some analysis last week, to get some numbers out of the Wikipedia language links. One type of reports that were generated was the list of all articles in the main namespaces of the Wikipedias that link to more than one article in another language edition of Wikipedia (so called double language links). There are not that many of them (about 19,000 in total), split by language, all available here: http://simia.net/languagelinks/ Double language links are not errors per se, but they contain a few nuisances * they lead to two links in the language links list that just look the same (you have to hover over them to see that they link to different languages), which is not really optimal from the user experience side * they are not saved in the langlinks table and thus are ignored in certain reports and also in the respective export I am not sure how to reach out to the respective Wikipedia communities, or if I should at all. Should I post to their respective version of the village pump? Remembering from the time I was active on the Croatian Wikipedia, I would have appreciated that list to check the entries. I reckoned the wikipedia-l list would be the right place, but that list looks rather dead. Cheers, Denny -- Project director Wikidata Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. | Obentrautstr. 72 | 10963 Berlin Tel. +49-30-219 158 26-0 | http://wikimedia.de Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V. Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Language links and double language links on the Wikipedias
Hi Denny, TL;DR: It's a very important question, but don't worry about it too much. Just do Wikidata well as it is currently planned. Now, the full reply. I wrote a bit of an essay about it in 2008: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Tips_for_resolving_interwiki_conflicts I also started a page to coordinate the efforts to resolve such conflicts: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Interwiki_synchronization It started out nicely, but didn't really scale, so I had no choice but to neglect it. There are two main reasons that it didn't scale: 1. Fixing interlanguage links conflicts is an exhausting manual process. The Interlanguage extension or Wikidata are supposed to make it centralized and easier. 2. Almost all Wikipedians are very, very reluctant about doing anything outside their home projects. So, Wikidata is supposed to resolve #1. Once it becomes active, #2 will kick in again. At this stage, all I can say is our old motto: Be Bold. There's a rumor about me, which says that I know a lot of languages. I don't; I'm just bold about trying to edit Wikipedias in languages that I don't know. Everybody can do it. Most of the time it turns out to be correct and people don't complain. Trying to talk to people about this on village pumps and using global message delivery is not very efficient. In many languages, even in some major ones, the village pumps are not as active as in English, and even when they are, people very often ignore messages in English. Anyway, my proposal is this: * As discussed at bug 15607 [1], the best strategy for rolling out centralized language links is to enable them in articles without conflicts and to leave articles with conflicts without any change at first. * After initial roll-out, a list of conflicts for every project should be created. That is, there should be one list of articles with conflicts in the English Wikipedia, another list for the Hebrew Wikipedia, another one for Croatian, etc. This will make it relatively more accessible for people, because it will look like a problem in their project. Most people like solving local problems more than global problems.[2] * Profit. I believe that this crowdsourcing model may work. It won't be immediately perfect or very fast. It's just a sensible start. [1] https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15607 [2] A technical implementation comment about the list of pages with conflicts: it will be most efficient, if it will be implemented as a special page in each project. If updating it immediately is too burdensome in terms of performance, it can be updated in batches every week or so. The reason it should be a special page is that it will look like an integrated site feature and that it will be easy to localize its interface. 2012/6/25 Denny Vrandečić denny.vrande...@wikimedia.de: Hi all, I ran some analysis last week, to get some numbers out of the Wikipedia language links. One type of reports that were generated was the list of all articles in the main namespaces of the Wikipedias that link to more than one article in another language edition of Wikipedia (so called double language links). There are not that many of them (about 19,000 in total), split by language, all available here: http://simia.net/languagelinks/ Double language links are not errors per se, but they contain a few nuisances * they lead to two links in the language links list that just look the same (you have to hover over them to see that they link to different languages), which is not really optimal from the user experience side * they are not saved in the langlinks table and thus are ignored in certain reports and also in the respective export I am not sure how to reach out to the respective Wikipedia communities, or if I should at all. Should I post to their respective version of the village pump? Remembering from the time I was active on the Croatian Wikipedia, I would have appreciated that list to check the entries. I reckoned the wikipedia-l list would be the right place, but that list looks rather dead. Cheers, Denny -- Project director Wikidata Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. | Obentrautstr. 72 | 10963 Berlin Tel. +49-30-219 158 26-0 | http://wikimedia.de Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V. Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Language links and double language links on the Wikipedias
Thanks for this list. For the languages I know, I've started going through and fixing ones that are clearly wrong. If a number of people do that, that should improve the general quality/consistency of interwiki links. I second the other comment that it'd be nice if the parsing could be re-run to exclude commented-out links, but the list is still useful as is. There are some difficult cases, though, when languages make different choices on how to group subjects, so the articles aren't actually in 1-to-1 correspondence. For example, the English article [[en: Móði and Magni]] unsurprisingly has two outgoing interwiki links, when linking to languages that split them, such as [[da:Magni]] and [[da:Modi]]. It's not clear what to do about these cases. Best, Mark On 6/25/12 12:29 PM, Denny Vrandečić wrote: Hi all, I ran some analysis last week, to get some numbers out of the Wikipedia language links. One type of reports that were generated was the list of all articles in the main namespaces of the Wikipedias that link to more than one article in another language edition of Wikipedia (so called double language links). There are not that many of them (about 19,000 in total), split by language, all available here: http://simia.net/languagelinks/ Double language links are not errors per se, but they contain a few nuisances * they lead to two links in the language links list that just look the same (you have to hover over them to see that they link to different languages), which is not really optimal from the user experience side * they are not saved in the langlinks table and thus are ignored in certain reports and also in the respective export I am not sure how to reach out to the respective Wikipedia communities, or if I should at all. Should I post to their respective version of the village pump? Remembering from the time I was active on the Croatian Wikipedia, I would have appreciated that list to check the entries. I reckoned the wikipedia-l list would be the right place, but that list looks rather dead. Cheers, Denny ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Language links and double language links on the Wikipedias
Hello, So may I guess that double links are usually the result of a Wikipedian who was not sure which language link to set, so in doubt, he simply put in the language links for two different articles? And in general, is it imagineable that different languages divide the knowledge in different ways, which could jeopardize the whole goal of Wikidata unifiying the language links? Kind regards Ziko 2012/6/25 Delirium delir...@hackish.org: Thanks for this list. For the languages I know, I've started going through and fixing ones that are clearly wrong. If a number of people do that, that should improve the general quality/consistency of interwiki links. I second the other comment that it'd be nice if the parsing could be re-run to exclude commented-out links, but the list is still useful as is. There are some difficult cases, though, when languages make different choices on how to group subjects, so the articles aren't actually in 1-to-1 correspondence. For example, the English article [[en: Móði and Magni]] unsurprisingly has two outgoing interwiki links, when linking to languages that split them, such as [[da:Magni]] and [[da:Modi]]. It's not clear what to do about these cases. Best, Mark On 6/25/12 12:29 PM, Denny Vrandečić wrote: Hi all, I ran some analysis last week, to get some numbers out of the Wikipedia language links. One type of reports that were generated was the list of all articles in the main namespaces of the Wikipedias that link to more than one article in another language edition of Wikipedia (so called double language links). There are not that many of them (about 19,000 in total), split by language, all available here: http://simia.net/languagelinks/ Double language links are not errors per se, but they contain a few nuisances * they lead to two links in the language links list that just look the same (you have to hover over them to see that they link to different languages), which is not really optimal from the user experience side * they are not saved in the langlinks table and thus are ignored in certain reports and also in the respective export I am not sure how to reach out to the respective Wikipedia communities, or if I should at all. Should I post to their respective version of the village pump? Remembering from the time I was active on the Croatian Wikipedia, I would have appreciated that list to check the entries. I reckoned the wikipedia-l list would be the right place, but that list looks rather dead. Cheers, Denny ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l -- --- Vereniging Wikimedia Nederland dr. Ziko van Dijk, voorzitter http://wmnederland.nl/ Wikimedia Nederland Postbus 167 3500 AD Utrecht --- ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
