Reminder! If you want to express your opinion in the English Wikipedia
Request for Comment on whether to adopt gender neutral language in
Wikipedia policies (but not articles or discussion pages), this is due
to be *closed this weekend* having reached 30 days for votes and
Dear Antoine, it is solvable in French and there are some very good practice
manual online here is one from Switzerland
Just a small remark : actually the message that was used in the end on the site
notice is gender neutral, and was acceptable for all. There is sometimes a way
out of the binary gendering in French, « nous" for example has no attributed
gender. Using wikimedien·ne·s does not include
The Odia-language itself is gender neutral though we have some
gender-specific pronouns. So we never worried about these issues. :)
On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 10:29 AM, Amir E. Aharoni <
> Mmmm, the Hebrew Wikipedia has been gender-neutral for at
Mmmm, the Hebrew Wikipedia has been gender-neutral for at least eight years
So Commons is not exactly the first project to do this.
בתאריך 12 באפר׳ 2017 10:14 AM, "Fæ" כתב:
I am delighted to say that Wikimedia Commons is today the /first/
project to have an official
Excellent to see. Thanks Fae and agree this is an important initiative.
On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 1:13 AM, Fæ wrote:
> I am delighted to say that Wikimedia Commons is today the /first/
> project to have an official Gender-neutral language policy for its
> policies and
I am delighted to say that Wikimedia Commons is today the /first/
project to have an official Gender-neutral language policy for its
policies and help pages, so that the project is a welcoming
environment for all. Thanks to everyone that took part in the
discussions and vote!
I beg to differ with Anders final comment;
> And our standpoint is that we as Wikipedians should not be first in
> introducing new use of language but wait until it has become mainstream (if
> it ever will be)
I have no issue within our policies and projects being a leader the use of
Thanks for the French experience. :-) You may not have picked up on
the specific comment about the French Wikipedia a few days ago in the
general Wikimedia Commons Village Pump discussion:
"* Total Support. This is not only useful to the trans community, but
in the case of French, it is more
A couple of weeks ago, I was asked - in my capacity of meta admin - to
change the phrasing of a site notice on meta, meant to call for
participation to the month of Francophonie.
An English Wikipedia gender neutral policy, similar to the one
developed for Commons, is now under "lively" discussion in a Requests
for Comment started this afternoon. You can read the proposed policy
and join in by adding your viewpoint at:
Thanks for highlighting this point. The gender neutral policies we are
putting in place simply ensure that our policy, guidelines and help
pages use gender neutral language where reasonable to do so. These
policies do not apply to what our users write on discussion pages when
The focus should not be what some users want to call other users, but on
what users want to call themselves.
" I cannot accept the status quo where some minorities
feel excluded by our systems and policies, but I don't have to, as we
are not standing still."
Then I think you should reconsider.
On 7 April 2017 at 06:39, Anders Wennersten wrote:
> So when it comes to how we use them in documents related to WIkipedia, is to
> not use any of them. It is a little bit more complicated but it is quite
> possible. "The person who takes a photo should" etc
This basic issue has for many years been a "hot" issue in Sweden.
And the use of the words "han" (he/his) and "hon" (she/her) has become a
minefield. And to use "him and her" to mean all type of persons is just
not acceptable (what about all who want to use other attributes to
I quote: " I simply do not accept that by we are asking for the impossible
on any of our projects, I never shall accept it." That is indeed your
prerogative. The problem is that with such a point of view, there is not
much of a discussion possible. If you want to be single issue Fae, then
I believe the best way to describe people is as accurately, and neutral as
possible, following the grammatical and cultural rules within the
community, and especially to address them as they chose themselves. Note
that we use grammatical gender, we do not address people with sexual
Thanks, Fae, for opening this thread - and thank you everyone for
responding so eloquently and knowledgeably. This was a topic where I knew
I didn't have sufficient knowledge to comment, and I have learned a lot
from this discussion. It's a solid example of the best traits of the
Thanks for raising the different language problems. I'm aware of it,
though I only edit in English.
Last weekend I was much enlightened by sitting down with a German
trans contributor, who was showing me the system language problems on
the German Wikipedia, and together we started having fun
Sorry to people from Bergen, girls from Bergen is masculine - "jenten". I
wonder if we can blame that on the Germans, "mädchen" is neutrum, perhaps
they messed up the local language during the Hansa-period.
On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 10:49 PM, John Erling Blad wrote:
> There are a
There are a lot of languages where there are no neutral gender, or where
there are a single male gender, or it can even be that the only neutral
gender is used for things and animals.
In German there is an expectation of gender-correct form. In Norwegian
there is an expectation of a neutral form.
One can use "one" or "one's" to substitute in many places for 3rd person
singular pronouns. Not everywhere, but it is in keeping with English
On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 10:35 AM, J. wrote:
> Instead of:
> * A photographer has to be given credit when the
* A photographer has to be given credit when the picture is used.
* The artist must be given attribution when an image is reused.
Cheers! Wayne Calhoon (AKA Checkingfax)
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
I support rewriting sentences rather than using "singular they" if it's
straightforward enough to do so, as in Gerard's example. But yes, there
are people, including myself, who are neither men nor women, and using
gendered language like "he or she" leaves us out.
And yes, in English "you" is
I kinda second this, as a non native speaker the singular they sounds
awkward/confusing/wrong/whatever. Maybe something like "the person's"
(I hope everyone would self-recognize in this), "one's own", no
adjective at all. It's a bit hard for me to understand that some
person does not self
As a non native English speaker, I positively hate this. When you want to
say that a picture of a photographer whatever, you do not have to say "his
or her", it suffices to say "when a picture of a photographer is to be
used, prior permission has to be asked" or whatever.
Yes, it may please
Thanks for the examples from French and I'm sure that our experienced
translators will have in mind specific best practice guides to turn
to. I like your illustration of "un/une adminstra-teur-trice" to show
the challenges. The use of "singular they" remains uncomfortable for
many English readers,
Le 05/04/2017 à 12:52, Fæ a écrit :
> I'm taking that further by
> proposing that we stick to a neutral gender for all our policies and
> help pages. In practice this means that policies avoid using "he or
> she" and stick to "they" or avoid using a pronoun at all.
As a non native English
On 05/04/17 11:52, Fæ wrote:
Should have been common practice years ago.
Wikimedia-l mailing list,
I definitely support using gender-neutral language wherever possible,
especially since I'm agender and prefer being addressed with "singular
they" pronouns. I'll support your proposal on Commons.
- Pax aka Funcrunch
On 4/5/17 5:54 AM, Amir E. Aharoni wrote:
Writing should, indeed, be
Writing should, indeed, be gender-neutral when the gender is not known. But
when the gender is known, it is possible in MediaWiki software to write
messaging according to the indicated gender.
Note that in the English grammar it is needed relatively rarely in the
first place. It is relevant for
One of the unplanned outcomes from the Wikimedia Conference in Berlin,
was that the various discussions over /feeling/ more welcoming in our
language presumptions for
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