Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's go gender neutral

2017-05-05 Thread
Reminder! If you want to express your opinion in the English Wikipedia Request for Comment on whether to adopt gender neutral language in Wikipedia policies (but not articles or discussion pages), this is due to be *closed this weekend* having reached 30 days for votes and discussion. Shortcut:

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's go gender neutral

2017-04-13 Thread Natacha Rault
Dear Antoine, it is solvable in French and there are some very good practice manual online here is one from Switzerland https://www.unige.ch/rectorat/egalite/files/9414/0353/2732/charte_epicene_Chancelerie_guide_formulation_non_sexiste.pdf

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's go gender neutral

2017-04-13 Thread Natacha Rault
Hi Florence Just a small remark : actually the message that was used in the end on the site notice is gender neutral, and was acceptable for all. There is sometimes a way out of the binary gendering in French, « nous" for example has no attributed gender. Using wikimedien·ne·s does not include

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's go gender neutral

2017-04-13 Thread Subhashish Panigrahi
The Odia-language itself is gender neutral though we have some gender-specific pronouns. So we never worried about these issues. :) Subhashish On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 10:29 AM, Amir E. Aharoni < amir.ahar...@mail.huji.ac.il> wrote: > Mmmm, the Hebrew Wikipedia has been gender-neutral for at

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's go gender neutral

2017-04-12 Thread Amir E. Aharoni
Mmmm, the Hebrew Wikipedia has been gender-neutral for at least eight years :) So Commons is not exactly the first project to do this. בתאריך 12 באפר׳ 2017 10:14 AM,‏ "Fæ" כתב: I am delighted to say that Wikimedia Commons is today the /first/ project to have an official

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's go gender neutral

2017-04-12 Thread James Heilman
Excellent to see. Thanks Fae and agree this is an important initiative. James On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 1:13 AM, Fæ wrote: > I am delighted to say that Wikimedia Commons is today the /first/ > project to have an official Gender-neutral language policy for its > policies and

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's go gender neutral

2017-04-12 Thread
I am delighted to say that Wikimedia Commons is today the /first/ project to have an official Gender-neutral language policy for its policies and help pages, so that the project is a welcoming environment for all. Thanks to everyone that took part in the discussions and vote! *

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's go gender neutral

2017-04-08 Thread Gnangarra
I beg to differ with Anders final comment; > ​ > And our standpoint is that we as Wikipedians should not be first in > introducing new use of language but wait until it has become mainstream (if > it ever will be)​ ​I have no issue within our policies and projects being a leader the use of

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's go gender neutral

2017-04-08 Thread
Thanks for the French experience. :-) You may not have picked up on the specific comment about the French Wikipedia a few days ago in the general Wikimedia Commons Village Pump discussion:[1] "* Total Support. This is not only useful to the trans community, but in the case of French, it is more

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's go gender neutral

2017-04-08 Thread Florence Devouard
A couple of weeks ago, I was asked - in my capacity of meta admin - to change the phrasing of a site notice on meta, meant to call for participation to the month of Francophonie. https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Centralnotice-template-WikiFranca_MC17=prev=16482259 The

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's go gender neutral

2017-04-07 Thread
An English Wikipedia gender neutral policy, similar to the one developed for Commons, is now under "lively" discussion in a Requests for Comment started this afternoon. You can read the proposed policy and join in by adding your viewpoint at: Shortcut:

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's go gender neutral

2017-04-07 Thread
Hi John, Thanks for highlighting this point. The gender neutral policies we are putting in place simply ensure that our policy, guidelines and help pages use gender neutral language where reasonable to do so. These policies do not apply to what our users write on discussion pages when referring

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's go gender neutral

2017-04-07 Thread John Erling Blad
The focus should not be what some users want to call other users, but on what users want to call themselves. " I cannot accept the status quo where some minorities feel excluded by our systems and policies, but I don't have to, as we are not standing still." Then I think you should reconsider.

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's go gender neutral

2017-04-07 Thread
On 7 April 2017 at 06:39, Anders Wennersten wrote: ... > So when it comes to how we use them in documents related to WIkipedia, is to > not use any of them. It is a little bit more complicated but it is quite > possible. "The person who takes a photo should" etc > > And

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's go gender neutral

2017-04-06 Thread Anders Wennersten
This basic issue has for many years been a "hot" issue in Sweden. And the use of the words "han" (he/his) and "hon" (she/her) has become a minefield. And to use "him and her" to mean all type of persons is just not acceptable (what about all who want to use other attributes to define

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's go gender neutral

2017-04-06 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi, I quote: " I simply do not accept that by we are asking for the impossible on any of our projects, I never shall accept it." That is indeed your prerogative. The problem is that with such a point of view, there is not much of a discussion possible. If you want to be single issue Fae, then

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's go gender neutral

2017-04-06 Thread John Erling Blad
I believe the best way to describe people is as accurately, and neutral as possible, following the grammatical and cultural rules within the community, and especially to address them as they chose themselves. Note that we use grammatical gender, we do not address people with sexual gender. On

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's go gender neutral

2017-04-06 Thread Risker
Thanks, Fae, for opening this thread - and thank you everyone for responding so eloquently and knowledgeably. This was a topic where I knew I didn't have sufficient knowledge to comment, and I have learned a lot from this discussion. It's a solid example of the best traits of the Wikimedia

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's go gender neutral

2017-04-06 Thread
Thanks for raising the different language problems. I'm aware of it, though I only edit in English. Last weekend I was much enlightened by sitting down with a German trans contributor, who was showing me the system language problems on the German Wikipedia, and together we started having fun

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's go gender neutral

2017-04-06 Thread John Erling Blad
Sorry to people from Bergen, girls from Bergen is masculine - "jenten". I wonder if we can blame that on the Germans, "mädchen" is neutrum, perhaps they messed up the local language during the Hansa-period. On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 10:49 PM, John Erling Blad wrote: > There are a

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's go gender neutral

2017-04-06 Thread John Erling Blad
There are a lot of languages where there are no neutral gender, or where there are a single male gender, or it can even be that the only neutral gender is used for things and animals. In German there is an expectation of gender-correct form. In Norwegian there is an expectation of a neutral form.

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's go gender neutral

2017-04-06 Thread Raymond Leonard
One can use "one" or "one's" to substitute in many places for 3rd person singular pronouns. Not everywhere, but it is in keeping with English grammar. Peaceray On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 10:35 AM, J. wrote: > Instead of: > * A photographer has to be given credit when the

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's go gender neutral

2017-04-06 Thread J.
Instead of: * A photographer has to be given credit when the picture is used. How about: * The artist must be given attribution when an image is reused. Cheers! Wayne Calhoon (AKA Checkingfax) ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's go gender neutral

2017-04-06 Thread Pax Ahimsa Gethen
I support rewriting sentences rather than using "singular they" if it's straightforward enough to do so, as in Gerard's example. But yes, there are people, including myself, who are neither men nor women, and using gendered language like "he or she" leaves us out. And yes, in English "you" is

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's go gender neutral

2017-04-06 Thread Marco Chiesa
I kinda second this, as a non native speaker the singular they sounds awkward/confusing/wrong/whatever. Maybe something like "the person's" (I hope everyone would self-recognize in this), "one's own", no adjective at all. It's a bit hard for me to understand that some person does not self

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's go gender neutral

2017-04-06 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi, As a non native English speaker, I positively hate this. When you want to say that a picture of a photographer whatever, you do not have to say "his or her", it suffices to say "when a picture of a photographer is to be used, prior permission has to be asked" or whatever. Yes, it may please

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's go gender neutral

2017-04-06 Thread
Thanks for the examples from French and I'm sure that our experienced translators will have in mind specific best practice guides to turn to. I like your illustration of "un/une adminstra-teur-trice" to show the challenges. The use of "singular they" remains uncomfortable for many English readers,

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's go gender neutral

2017-04-06 Thread Antoine Musso
Le 05/04/2017 à 12:52, Fæ a écrit : > I'm taking that further by > proposing that we stick to a neutral gender for all our policies and > help pages. In practice this means that policies avoid using "he or > she" and stick to "they" or avoid using a pronoun at all. As a non native English

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's go gender neutral

2017-04-05 Thread Gordon Joly
On 05/04/17 11:52, Fæ wrote: > * > https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Village_pump#Defaulting_to_gender_neutral_language_in_the_Commons_namespace > Should have been common practice years ago. IMHO, El Gordo ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list,

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's go gender neutral

2017-04-05 Thread Pax Ahimsa Gethen
I definitely support using gender-neutral language wherever possible, especially since I'm agender and prefer being addressed with "singular they" pronouns. I'll support your proposal on Commons. - Pax aka Funcrunch On 4/5/17 5:54 AM, Amir E. Aharoni wrote: Writing should, indeed, be

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's go gender neutral

2017-04-05 Thread Amir E. Aharoni
Writing should, indeed, be gender-neutral when the gender is not known. But when the gender is known, it is possible in MediaWiki software to write messaging according to the indicated gender. Note that in the English grammar it is needed relatively rarely in the first place. It is relevant for

[Wikimedia-l] Let's go gender neutral

2017-04-05 Thread
* https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Village_pump#Defaulting_to_gender_neutral_language_in_the_Commons_namespace Hi, One of the unplanned outcomes from the Wikimedia Conference in Berlin, was that the various discussions over /feeling/ more welcoming in our language presumptions for