Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's set up a Tor onion service for Wikipedia

2017-07-09 Thread Cristian Consonni
ANother relevant academic article: --- "Chilling Effects: Online Surveillance and Wikipedia Use"[1] «This article discusses the results of the first empirical study providing evidence of regulatory “chilling effects” of Wikipedia users associated with online government surveillance. The study

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's set up a Tor onion service for Wikipedia

2017-06-21 Thread Faidon Liambotis
On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 11:46:11PM +0100, Alec Muffett wrote: > Request: whist we're here, I would be delighted to see/plagiarise the > cipher suites that Wikipedia uses - could you point me at them, please? Cipher suites can be found here:

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's set up a Tor onion service for Wikipedia

2017-06-21 Thread Alec Muffett
On 16 June 2017 at 19:12, Faidon Liambotis wrote: > hi Alec, Hi Faidon! On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 04:12:49PM +0100, Alec Muffett wrote: > > I'd love to know more about the security issues in particular. Do please > > tell? > > I don't recall finding a specific

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's set up a Tor onion service for Wikipedia

2017-06-20 Thread Cristian Consonni
Hi, On 19/06/2017 13:35, Tim Starling wrote: > The only other argument I saw was that by doing this, we are > supporting Tor, and Tor is evil. But the hidden service only handles > traffic which is directed to the service. It does not support the > network in general. Meanwhile, since 2014 we are

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's set up a Tor onion service for Wikipedia

2017-06-19 Thread Joshua Gay
On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 5:35 AM, Tim Starling wrote: > > > I think we should shut down the relay, which in my opinion is not > mission-aligned, and set up the hidden service, which clearly is > mission-aligned. > In some countries, sharing information with others (even

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's set up a Tor onion service for Wikipedia

2017-06-19 Thread Rogol Domedonfors
Tim, I'm taking your response as a rather lengthy way of saying that there is no convenient central location for discussions of the sort that ought to be taking place around this and other projects. Is that correct? "Rogol" On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 12:35 PM, Tim Starling

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's set up a Tor onion service for Wikipedia

2017-06-19 Thread Ilario Valdelli
:10 To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's set up a Tor onion service for Wikipedia On 13/06/17 20:28, Gergő Tisza wrote: > Now that we have ascertained (again) that wikimedia-l is a ​poor channel > for focused discussions about tech proposals, can w

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's set up a Tor onion service for Wikipedia

2017-06-19 Thread Faidon Liambotis
On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 09:35:10PM +1000, Tim Starling wrote: > I think we should shut down the relay, which in my opinion is not > mission-aligned, and set up the hidden service, which clearly is > mission-aligned. If Tor users are valueable to us enough to justify maintaining (small pieces of)

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's set up a Tor onion service for Wikipedia

2017-06-19 Thread Tim Starling
On 19/06/17 16:20, Rogol Domedonfors wrote: > I quite agree that Phabricator is not suitable for these discussions. > Perhaps Tim would like to say where and how discussions between the > Community and Foundation staff about the need for, and desirability of, > projects like this should be held.

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's set up a Tor onion service for Wikipedia

2017-06-19 Thread Rogol Domedonfors
I quite agree that Phabricator is not suitable for these discussions. Perhaps Tim would like to say where and how discussions between the Community and Foundation staff about the need for, and desirability of, projects like this should be held. After all, we all want projects to go ahead on the

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's set up a Tor onion service for Wikipedia

2017-06-18 Thread Tim Starling
On 13/06/17 20:28, Gergő Tisza wrote: > Now that we have ascertained (again) that wikimedia-l is a ​poor channel > for focused discussions about tech proposals, can we move this to > Phabricator? I filed https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T168218 On 14/06/17 12:12, Risker wrote: > I see your

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's set up a Tor onion service for Wikipedia

2017-06-17 Thread Cristian Consonni
Hi Faidon, On 16/06/2017 20:12, Faidon Liambotis wrote: >> I would love to know more about what you see as the inhibitors - especially >> so that I can go fix them for the internet-community-at-large - however >> this decision is one for the Wikipedia community to take. >> >> I'll still happily

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's set up a Tor onion service for Wikipedia

2017-06-16 Thread Faidon Liambotis
hi Alec, On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 04:12:49PM +0100, Alec Muffett wrote: > I'd love to know more about the security issues in particular. Do please > tell? I don't recall finding a specific vulnerability, but last time I had a look at EOTK a while ago, it generated an nginx config that performed

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's set up a Tor onion service for Wikipedia

2017-06-16 Thread Alec Muffett
On 14 June 2017 at 16:08, Brad Jorsch (Anomie) wrote: > That part reminds me a bit of https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T156847, > which is about outputting different addresses in links for the mobile site > versus the desktop site. The same solution might work for both

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's set up a Tor onion service for Wikipedia

2017-06-16 Thread Alec Muffett
On 14 June 2017 at 15:57, Faidon Liambotis wrote: > The EOTK stuff are interesting but not really an option for us -- they > rely on a edge (nginx) server performing content manipulation blindly, > which is a bad idea for many reasons, security amongst them. > Hi again

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's set up a Tor onion service for Wikipedia

2017-06-14 Thread Cristian Consonni
Hi Faidon, Thank you for taking the time to respond to this thread. On 14/06/2017 16:57, Faidon Liambotis wrote: > [ I didn't see this email from Alec on the thread, was it off-list? ] [no, it's on the list and in the archive [1] ] > I've been in touch with Alec and other Tor project members

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's set up a Tor onion service for Wikipedia

2017-06-14 Thread Kevin Smith
On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 7:12 PM, Risker wrote: > I have yet to see any indication in numerous discussions about Tor that I > have read and/or participated in that our technical geniuses (and I say > that with warmth and honesty) really give a lot of thought to the legal and

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's set up a Tor onion service for Wikipedia

2017-06-14 Thread Dariusz Jemielniak
hi Faidon, On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 4:57 PM, Faidon Liambotis wrote: > > > However, it hasn't been a priority for me or my team for these reasons: > - As long as communities feel so-and-so about Tor overall, and e.g. > block edits from Tor users, it's hard to justify us

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's set up a Tor onion service for Wikipedia

2017-06-14 Thread Brad Jorsch (Anomie)
On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 10:57 AM, Faidon Liambotis wrote: > Just to mention a couple of issues: one of them is that we need MediaWiki > to emit different URLs for e.g. upload.wikimedia.org resources to point > to the onion address that we will designate for media. That

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's set up a Tor onion service for Wikipedia

2017-06-14 Thread Faidon Liambotis
Hi Cristian, [ I didn't see this email from Alec on the thread, was it off-list? ] I've been in touch with Alec and other Tor project members on emails, in-person Tor project meetings and videoconferences on multiple occasions in the past couple of years (the last one being a couple of months

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's set up a Tor onion service for Wikipedia

2017-06-14 Thread Cristian Consonni
Hi, On 14/06/2017 04:12, Risker wrote: > [...] Setting this up is not a > technical "problem" to be solved (which is essentially what Phabricator is > for). I will again reinforce: it's a social and ethical issue, and only > once that is resolved would it be time to consider it a "technical >

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's set up a Tor onion service for Wikipedia

2017-06-14 Thread Cristian Consonni
On 07/06/2017 20:24, Alec Muffett wrote: > If it helps, I built an betatest onion for Wikipedia and all(?) the > Wikimedia Foundation websites using EOTK* a few months ago, and documented > the build process at: > > https://github.com/alecmuffett/eotk/blob/master/docs.d/RUNBOOK.md > > A basic

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's set up a Tor onion service for Wikipedia

2017-06-13 Thread Risker
I see your point, Gergo, but in reality Phabricator is an even worse channel to discuss projects that are, essentially, social issues. Whether or not to have an onion may appear to be essentially a technical issue, but I have yet to see any indication in numerous discussions about Tor that I have

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's set up a Tor onion service for Wikipedia

2017-06-13 Thread Lane Rasberry
This conversation has gone in multiple directions. It started with reading Wikipedia through a hidden service. I am interested only in talking about editing Wikipedia with Tor. I feel that the negativity in this thread against Tor is unwarranted and ignorant. I can confirm that Wikipedia needs

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's set up a Tor onion service for Wikipedia

2017-06-13 Thread John Erling Blad
Blocking a registered user on TOR is not different from blocking a registered user outside TOR. 5. jun. 2017 21.02 skrev "John" : > Im not going to violate BEANS, but even allowing accounts to edit without > further hurdles isn't going to work. Because of the anonymity

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's set up a Tor onion service for Wikipedia

2017-06-13 Thread Gergő Tisza
Now that we have ascertained (again) that wikimedia-l is a ​poor channel for focused discussions about tech proposals, can we move this to Phabricator? ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's set up a Tor onion service for Wikipedia

2017-06-13 Thread Dariusz Jemielniak
On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 11:38 AM, Yongmin H. wrote: > FYI: Editing through tor is blocked for logged in users too, unless you > have `ipblock-exempt`. (It's included in admins and IP Block Exemptions.) it is NOW, it does not have to be - through an app. cheers, dj

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's set up a Tor onion service for Wikipedia

2017-06-13 Thread Trillium Corsage
06.06.2017, 01:11, "Risker" : > As far as I can tell (and from comments made in the past by actual Tor > users), there is no problem whatsoever for Tor users to read Wikipedia > while using Tor. Editing is a completely different situation - and well it > should be, given the

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's set up a Tor onion service for Wikipedia

2017-06-13 Thread Yongmin H.
FYI: Editing through tor is blocked for logged in users too, unless you have `ipblock-exempt`. (It's included in admins and IP Block Exemptions.) On 2017-06-13 18:26, Dariusz Jemielniak wrote: > On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 7:22 PM, Trillium Corsage > wrote: > >> 06.06.2017,

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's set up a Tor onion service for Wikipedia

2017-06-13 Thread Dariusz Jemielniak
On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 7:22 PM, Trillium Corsage wrote: > 06.06.2017, 01:11, "Risker" : > > As far as I can tell (and from comments made in the past by actual Tor > > users), there is no problem whatsoever for Tor users to read Wikipedia > > while

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's set up a Tor onion service for Wikipedia

2017-06-11 Thread Trillium Corsage
David Gerard, you and "John" go on about how horrible the English Wikipedia edits from Tor are. Can you give a couple examples (and quote them) just so we have a little basis to believe that no Tor editor was ever good, and refute the notion that the blocking of Tor IPs that haven't done

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's set up a Tor onion service for Wikipedia

2017-06-11 Thread Alec Muffett
If it helps, I built an betatest onion for Wikipedia and all(?) the Wikimedia Foundation websites using EOTK* a few months ago, and documented the build process at: https://github.com/alecmuffett/eotk/blob/master/docs.d/RUNBOOK.md A basic test onion takes about 5..10 minutes to set up on Ubuntu

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's set up a Tor onion service for Wikipedia

2017-06-10 Thread Gordon Joly
On 10/06/17 15:38, David Gerard wrote: > Rather than me reading through several pages to pick out what you might > mean, could you please quote the bits you consider particularly make a > relevant point? > > > - d. Well, here is the abstract. Gordon *

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's set up a Tor onion service for Wikipedia

2017-06-10 Thread David Gerard
Apposite, but defective in a number of respects; also, explicitly advocacy for Tor editing without really addressing the objections to it (that it's 99+% a firehose of garbage). Rather than me reading through several pages to pick out what you might mean, could you please quote the bits you

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's set up a Tor onion service for Wikipedia

2017-06-10 Thread Cristian Consonni
Hi, I have found now this paper that seems relevant to this conversation: Forte, Andrea, Nazanin Andalibi, and Rachel Greenstadt "Privacy, anonymity, and perceived risk in open collaboration: a study of Tor users and Wikipedians." Proceedings of Computer-Supported Cooperative Work and Social

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's set up a Tor onion service for Wikipedia

2017-06-07 Thread Andrea Zanni
Quick update, as this story went on Motherboard https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/wikipedians-want-to-to-put-wikipedia-on-the-dark-web ;-) Aubrey On Tue, Jun 6, 2017 at 12:22 PM, Cristian Consonni wrote: > On 06/06/2017 02:10, Risker wrote: > > As far as I can

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's set up a Tor onion service for Wikipedia

2017-06-06 Thread Cristian Consonni
On 06/06/2017 02:10, Risker wrote: > As far as I can tell (and from comments made in the past by actual Tor > users), there is no problem whatsoever for Tor users to read Wikipedia > while using Tor. Let me put it this way, I am sure that the WMF will always do its best to protect the privacy of

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's set up a Tor onion service for Wikipedia

2017-06-05 Thread Cristian Consonni
On 06/06/2017 01:34, MZMcBride wrote: > And Faidon posted in November 2014 about the establishment of a Tor relay: > https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2014-November/079392.html Thanks for the pointer, I did know that the WMF was operating a Tor relay but I didn't recall where to

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's set up a Tor onion service for Wikipedia

2017-06-05 Thread Vi to
By the way a certain degree of accountability is needed. There cannot be any privacy for "wikingers" or people bringing cyberbulling to wiki. Vito 2017-06-06 2:10 GMT+02:00 Risker : > As far as I can tell (and from comments made in the past by actual Tor > users), there is

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's set up a Tor onion service for Wikipedia

2017-06-05 Thread Risker
As far as I can tell (and from comments made in the past by actual Tor users), there is no problem whatsoever for Tor users to read Wikipedia while using Tor. Editing is a completely different situation - and well it should be, given the pure unadulterated trash that tends to come in whenever a

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's set up a Tor onion service for Wikipedia

2017-06-05 Thread MZMcBride
Cristian Consonni wrote: >I have read several discussions on the topic (going back to 2006) and >what I have understood from those is that the biggest issue with editing >via Tor is sockpuppeting. This Phabricator comment you found seems pretty useful:

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's set up a Tor onion service for Wikipedia

2017-06-05 Thread Cristian Consonni
On 05/06/2017 22:19, Todd Allen wrote: > With the recent ruling about ISPs being allowed to collect and sell user > data in the US, we're at "highly exceptional circumstances". Good Internet > citizens allow anonymous participation. We can soft block them, but surely > we can revert vandals and

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's set up a Tor onion service for Wikipedia

2017-06-05 Thread Gabriel Thullen
I agree that sockpuppets are a real problem, but they manage fine right now without going through Tor. There are quite a few ways to connect up using different IPs as it is now, so the real problem remains: the sockpuppeteers themselves. Gabe On Mon, Jun 5, 2017 at 10:20 PM, Cristian Consonni

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's set up a Tor onion service for Wikipedia

2017-06-05 Thread Cristian Consonni
On 05/06/2017 19:43, David Gerard wrote: > Editing may be a tricky one, particularly on en:wp, which has found > Tor exit points to overwhelmingly be fountains of garbage, and > automatically blocks them. On 05/06/2017 19:47, John wrote: > enabling read access via Tor shouldn't be an issue,

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's set up a Tor onion service for Wikipedia

2017-06-05 Thread Todd Allen
With the recent ruling about ISPs being allowed to collect and sell user data in the US, we're at "highly exceptional circumstances". Good Internet citizens allow anonymous participation. We can soft block them, but surely we can revert vandals and block their accounts. If we can't even manage

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's set up a Tor onion service for Wikipedia

2017-06-05 Thread Yongmin H.
Nope. Tor users needs `ip block exempt` or `global ip block exempt` to edit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IP_block_exemption seem to say so too. ("In highly exceptional circumstances, an editor may be permitted to edit anonymously, via Tor or another anonymizing proxy.") -- Yongmin

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's set up a Tor onion service for Wikipedia

2017-06-05 Thread John
Im not going to violate BEANS, but even allowing accounts to edit without further hurdles isn't going to work. Because of the anonymity that tor provides its fairly easy to cause widespread issues. When the vandals start actually using tactics the flood gates of TOR will cause massive issues cross

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's set up a Tor onion service for Wikipedia

2017-06-05 Thread John
Im not going to violate BEANS, but even allowing accounts to edit without further hurdles isn't going to work. Because of the anonymity that tor provides its fairly easy to cause widespread issues. When the vandals start actually using tactics the flood gates of TOR will cause massive issues cross

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's set up a Tor onion service for Wikipedia

2017-06-05 Thread Gabriel Thullen
I imagine registered users could edit through TOR. That is how it works with my school IP: anonymous edits are blocked, account creation as well, but you can sign in an edit. On Mon, Jun 5, 2017 at 7:47 PM, John wrote: > enabling read access via Tor shouldn't be an

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's set up a Tor onion service for Wikipedia

2017-06-05 Thread John
enabling read access via Tor shouldn't be an issue, however editing should not be allowed due to high volume of known abuse from that vector. On Mon, Jun 5, 2017 at 1:43 PM, David Gerard wrote: > Editing may be a tricky one, particularly on en:wp, which has found > Tor exit

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's set up a Tor onion service for Wikipedia

2017-06-05 Thread David Gerard
Editing may be a tricky one, particularly on en:wp, which has found Tor exit points to overwhelmingly be fountains of garbage, and automatically blocks them. - d. On 5 June 2017 at 18:30, David Cuenca Tudela wrote: > I think that's an excellent idea and very much aligned

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's set up a Tor onion service for Wikipedia

2017-06-05 Thread David Cuenca Tudela
I think that's an excellent idea and very much aligned with our commitment to provide free information also for those who are living under unfavorable conditions. I personally endorse it. Thanks Cristian for suggesting it. Regards, Micru On Jun 5, 2017 19:11, "Cristian Consonni"

[Wikimedia-l] Let's set up a Tor onion service for Wikipedia

2017-06-05 Thread Cristian Consonni
Hi, I have written a proposal about setting up an onion (hidden) service to serve Wikipedia over Tor: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IdeaLab/A_Tor_Onion_Service_for_Wikipedia I was thinking about this and I also discovered that the Internet Archive is experimenting with a very similar