Re: [Wikimedia-l] New style banner - A heads up

2017-08-25 Thread Peter Southwood
Agreed. Your message is a great improvement.
Cheers,
Peter

-Original Message-
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of 
Andreas Kolbe
Sent: Friday, 25 August 2017 9:15 PM
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] New style banner - A heads up

Sam,


On Thu, Aug 24, 2017 at 10:37 AM, Sam Wilson <s...@samwilson.id.au> wrote:

> Peter,
>
> Fair enough, I agree that the idea that Wikimedia would have been a 
> success if it'd be made commercial is crazy.



You say that now, but originally, Wikipedia was registered as a dotcom, with 
the idea that the site would host advertising one day. However, it soon became 
clear that the presence of advertising would be profoundly demotivating for 
Wikipedia’s unpaid volunteers.



> "Has it crossed my mind how
> much we could have made if it had ads? Sure. But it wouldn’t be the 
> same." reads to me as just a hypothetical "if it were as it is today
> *and* had ads", rather than any serious suggestion that that would 
> ever have been the case.



It wasn't hypothetical at all 15 years ago. The entire Spanish Wikipedia 
community left in 2002, starting a rival project, the Enciclopedia Libre[1], 
when Bomis[2], Jimmy Wales’ company at the time, was short of money and there 
was talk of introducing ads in Wikipedia.[3]

It took the Spanish Wikipedia years to catch up with (and eventually
overtake) the Enciclopedia Libre. *Thereafter*, advertising was never seriously 
discussed again, and Wikipedia was promoted as a purely altruistic endeavour.


I reckon it makes sense to the non-editor people
> it's aimed at.
>


It endorses and perpetuates, in the Wikimedia Foundation's voice, the myth that 
Jimmy Wales is some sort of Jesus who gave up the chance to make billions out 
of the kindness of his heart (rather than because volunteers told him they 
wouldn't work for free to make him rich). It aggrandises Wales while painting 
volunteers out of history.

As you say, "it makes sense" to the ignorant it is aimed at. (That's actually a 
useful definition of "alternative facts".)


Anyway, about my grammar nickpicking? ;-)
>


Let's look at the current wording again:

"We will get straight to the point: Today we ask you to help Wikipedia. To 
maintain our independence, we will never run ads. We depend on donations 
averaging about $15. Only a tiny portion of our readers give. If everyone 
reading this gave $3, we could keep Wikipedia thriving for years to come.
The price of a coffee is all we need. When I made Wikipedia a non-profit, 
people warned me I’d regret it. Over a decade later, it’s the only top ten site 
run by a non-profit and a community of volunteers. Has it crossed my mind how 
much we could have made if it had ads? Sure. But it wouldn’t be the same. We 
wouldn’t be able to trust it. Most people ignore my messages.
But I hope you’ll think about how useful it is to have unlimited access to 
reliable, neutral information. Please help keep Wikipedia online and growing. 
Thank you. — Jimmy Wales, Wikipedia Founder"

The shortcomings around this particular passage can be fixed. For example:

"We will get straight to the point: Today we ask you to help Wikipedia. To 
maintain our independence, we will never run ads. We depend on donations 
averaging about $15. Only a tiny portion of our readers give. If everyone 
reading this gave $3, we could keep Wikipedia thriving for years to come.
The price of a coffee is all we need. Wikipedia is the only top-ten site run by 
a non-profit and a community of volunteers. It wouldn’t be the same if it were 
a commercial project. Most people ignore our fundraising messages. But we hope 
you’ll think about how useful it is to have unlimited access to reliable, 
neutral information. Please help keep Wikipedia online and growing. Thank you. 
— Jimmy Wales, Wikipedia co-founder

That has matching pronouns as well.

Andreas

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enciclopedia_Libre_Universal_en_Español
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bomis
[3] http://www.wired.co.uk/article/wikipedia-spanish-fork



>
> —Sam
>
> On Thu, 24 Aug 2017, at 05:06 PM, Peter Southwood wrote:
> > Sam,
> > I can't get back to the banner for some reason, so I risk misquoting it.
> > Please take this into account.
> > What I find offensive is the implication that the foundation would 
> > even have Wikipedia if they were doing it commercially. I and a 
> > significant number of other contributors would not have helped make 
> > it what it is today if it had been a commercial site. To support 
> > this opinion, there do not appear to be any commercial projects of 
> > this type even vaguely approaching the success of Wikipedia. The 
> > banner implies that there would be a roughly equivalent project 
> > available to sel

Re: [Wikimedia-l] New style banner - A heads up

2017-08-25 Thread Andreas Kolbe
people who actually created and maintain the content of
> > Wikipedia would show that I am not.
> > At this point, I suggest that WMF do just that, run a survey to find out
> > who builds the encyclopaedia, and how they feel about this. The golden
> > rule of crowdsourcing is don’t alienate the crowd, especially when they
> > are doing your work for free. The one thing we ask in return for our work
> > is a little recognition and respect, and to know that we do a thing
> > intrinsically worth doing. Again, I realise I do not necessarily speak
> > for everyone, but suspect that I speak for many.
> > Cheers,
> > Peter
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On
> > Behalf Of Sam Wilson
> > Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2017 10:26 AM
> > To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] New style banner - A heads up
> >
> > "Offensive" seems a bit over the top! Who's it offending? Seems pretty
> > okay to me, personally. :-)
> >
> > Anyway, the only thing I notice with it is that it starts with "We
> > will..." and then says "When I made..." etc. Shouldn't these pronouns
> > agree?
> >
> > —Sam.
> >
> > On Thu, 24 Aug 2017, at 04:07 PM, Peter Southwood wrote:
> > > The old style is excessively large and in your face. The new style is
> > > almost, but not quite as bad. The content remains offensive and
> > > misleading Cheers, Peter
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On
> > > Behalf Of Joseph Seddon
> > > Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2017 5:02 PM
> > > To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> > > Subject: [Wikimedia-l] New style banner - A heads up
> > >
> > > Hey Wikimedia-l
> > >
> > > Apologies for the short notice.
> > >
> > > I wanted to give you a heads up on a banner test that will soon be
> > > going live.
> > >
> > > We've been working on a new style of banner that is specifically
> > > designed to have the same native look and feel as the rest of the site
> > > and interface. It's intended to be understated and you'll see is very
> > > different to our currently best performing banner:
> > >
> > > Current:
> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein?banner=B1718_0823_en6C_d
> > > sk_p1_lg_dsn_cnt=1=US=QA
> > >
> > > New Native feel:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein?banner=B1718_0
> 823_en6C_dsk_p1_lg_dsn_native=1=US=QA
> > >
> > > Any feedback is welcome.
> > >
> > > Regards
> > >
> > > --
> > > Seddon
>
___
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https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
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New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] New style banner - A heads up

2017-08-25 Thread Ziko van Dijk
Hello,

Just a general remark.

It is actually possible to create a huge website with a lot of content,
even if you are commercial. Wikia (or "Fandom powered by Wikia) is an
example, Baidu Baike another one. Maybe its not exactly the same (sort of)
people who contribute. But I find it highly speculative that a for-profit
organization cannot make a wiki encyclopedia a success, by principle.

Having that said, I personally am very happy that Wikipedia's owner is a
non profit organization. But we should not be too self-secure about our
position - a possible "Wikipedia killer" in future could indeed come from a
commercial organization. That is one important point of the discussion
around the Wikimedia strategy, that we understand that 'we' are not
'invincible'.

Kind regards,
Ziko



Peter Southwood <peter.southw...@telkomsa.net> schrieb am Fr. 25. Aug. 2017
um 17:51:

> We should not sink to "alternative facts" Not even to the American public,
> who seem to be accustomed to them. We should provide a better example.
> Cheers,
> Peter
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On
> Behalf Of Sam Wilson
> Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2017 11:38 AM
> To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] New style banner - A heads up
>
> Peter,
>
> Fair enough, I agree that the idea that Wikimedia would have been a
> success if it'd be made commercial is crazy. "Has it crossed my mind how
> much we could have made if it had ads? Sure. But it wouldn’t be the same."
> reads to me as just a hypothetical "if it were as it is today
> *and* had ads", rather than any serious suggestion that that would ever
> have been the case. I reckon it makes sense to the non-editor people it's
> aimed at.
>
> Anyway, about my grammar nickpicking? ;-)
>
> —Sam
>
> On Thu, 24 Aug 2017, at 05:06 PM, Peter Southwood wrote:
> > Sam,
> > I can't get back to the banner for some reason, so I risk misquoting it.
> > Please take this into account.
> > What I find offensive is the implication that the foundation would
> > even have Wikipedia if they were doing it commercially. I and a
> > significant number of other contributors would not have helped make it
> > what it is today if it had been a commercial site. To support this
> > opinion, there do not appear to be any commercial projects of this
> > type even vaguely approaching the success of Wikipedia. The banner
> > implies that there would be a roughly equivalent project available to
> > sell. This I find offensive as it denigrates the voluntary
> > contributions done by all the unpaid contributors.
> > I see this as misrepresentation and disrespect to the crowd that is
> > the source of the product, therefore offensive.
> > It is possible that I am alone in this opinion, but I suggest that a
> > survey of the people who actually created and maintain the content of
> > Wikipedia would show that I am not.
> > At this point, I suggest that WMF do just that, run a survey to find
> > out who builds the encyclopaedia, and how they feel about this. The
> > golden rule of crowdsourcing is don’t alienate the crowd, especially
> > when they are doing your work for free. The one thing we ask in return
> > for our work is a little recognition and respect, and to know that we
> > do a thing intrinsically worth doing. Again, I realise I do not
> > necessarily speak for everyone, but suspect that I speak for many.
> > Cheers,
> > Peter
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On
> > Behalf Of Sam Wilson
> > Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2017 10:26 AM
> > To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] New style banner - A heads up
> >
> > "Offensive" seems a bit over the top! Who's it offending? Seems pretty
> > okay to me, personally. :-)
> >
> > Anyway, the only thing I notice with it is that it starts with "We
> > will..." and then says "When I made..." etc. Shouldn't these pronouns
> > agree?
> >
> > —Sam.
> >
> > On Thu, 24 Aug 2017, at 04:07 PM, Peter Southwood wrote:
> > > The old style is excessively large and in your face. The new style
> > > is almost, but not quite as bad. The content remains offensive and
> > > misleading Cheers, Peter
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org]
> > > On Behalf Of Joseph Seddon
> > > Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2017 5:02 PM
> > > To: Wikimedia M

Re: [Wikimedia-l] New style banner - A heads up

2017-08-25 Thread Peter Southwood
We should not sink to "alternative facts" Not even to the American public, who 
seem to be accustomed to them. We should provide a better example.
Cheers,
Peter

-Original Message-
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of 
Sam Wilson
Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2017 11:38 AM
To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] New style banner - A heads up

Peter,

Fair enough, I agree that the idea that Wikimedia would have been a success if 
it'd be made commercial is crazy. "Has it crossed my mind how much we could 
have made if it had ads? Sure. But it wouldn’t be the same." reads to me as 
just a hypothetical "if it were as it is today
*and* had ads", rather than any serious suggestion that that would ever have 
been the case. I reckon it makes sense to the non-editor people it's aimed at.

Anyway, about my grammar nickpicking? ;-)

—Sam

On Thu, 24 Aug 2017, at 05:06 PM, Peter Southwood wrote:
> Sam,
> I can't get back to the banner for some reason, so I risk misquoting it.
> Please take this into account.
> What I find offensive is the implication that the foundation would 
> even have Wikipedia if they were doing it commercially. I and a 
> significant number of other contributors would not have helped make it 
> what it is today if it had been a commercial site. To support this 
> opinion, there do not appear to be any commercial projects of this 
> type even vaguely approaching the success of Wikipedia. The banner 
> implies that there would be a roughly equivalent project available to 
> sell. This I find offensive as it denigrates the voluntary 
> contributions done by all the unpaid contributors.
> I see this as misrepresentation and disrespect to the crowd that is 
> the source of the product, therefore offensive.
> It is possible that I am alone in this opinion, but I suggest that a 
> survey of the people who actually created and maintain the content of 
> Wikipedia would show that I am not.
> At this point, I suggest that WMF do just that, run a survey to find 
> out who builds the encyclopaedia, and how they feel about this. The 
> golden rule of crowdsourcing is don’t alienate the crowd, especially 
> when they are doing your work for free. The one thing we ask in return 
> for our work is a little recognition and respect, and to know that we 
> do a thing intrinsically worth doing. Again, I realise I do not 
> necessarily speak for everyone, but suspect that I speak for many.
> Cheers,
> Peter
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On 
> Behalf Of Sam Wilson
> Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2017 10:26 AM
> To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] New style banner - A heads up
> 
> "Offensive" seems a bit over the top! Who's it offending? Seems pretty 
> okay to me, personally. :-)
> 
> Anyway, the only thing I notice with it is that it starts with "We 
> will..." and then says "When I made..." etc. Shouldn't these pronouns 
> agree?
> 
> —Sam.
> 
> On Thu, 24 Aug 2017, at 04:07 PM, Peter Southwood wrote:
> > The old style is excessively large and in your face. The new style 
> > is almost, but not quite as bad. The content remains offensive and 
> > misleading Cheers, Peter
> > 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] 
> > On Behalf Of Joseph Seddon
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2017 5:02 PM
> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> > Subject: [Wikimedia-l] New style banner - A heads up
> > 
> > Hey Wikimedia-l
> > 
> > Apologies for the short notice.
> > 
> > I wanted to give you a heads up on a banner test that will soon be 
> > going live.
> > 
> > We've been working on a new style of banner that is specifically 
> > designed to have the same native look and feel as the rest of the 
> > site and interface. It's intended to be understated and you'll see 
> > is very different to our currently best performing banner:
> > 
> > Current:
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein?banner=B1718_0823_en6C
> > _d sk_p1_lg_dsn_cnt=1=US=QA
> > 
> > New Native feel:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein?banner=B1718_0823_en6C_dsk_p1_lg_dsn_native=1=US=QA
> > 
> > Any feedback is welcome.
> > 
> > Regards
> > 
> > --
> > Seddon
> > 
> > *Advancement Associate (Community Engagement)* *Wikimedia 
> > Foundation* ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guide

Re: [Wikimedia-l] New style banner - A heads up

2017-08-25 Thread Samuel Patton
Hi all, happy Friday. I'm a member of the foundation's online fundraising
team and wanted to add a few points and answers to this good discussion.
I'll use bullet-points to separate each topic:

   - For clarification, this was a 1-hour test that ran from 15 to 16 UTC
   on Wednesday. We haven't adopted this style. And in terms of donor
   conversion, this banner variant lost to our control.

   - As Lodewijk stated above, we were interested in this test precisely
   because various community members have asked us to bring our banner more
   inline with the rest of Wikipedia's content. We have adopted elements of
   the MediaWiki OOjs UI and are interested in doing more.

   - This banner only ran for desktop and laptop users; not mobile or
   tablet.

   - We do not deliberately delay the loading of our banner content to draw
   attention to it and, generally, we try to minimize browser reflow as much
   as possible. CentralNotice simply loads after the rest of the page.

   - Thank you for the feedback regarding the copy you saw, from tone and
   pronoun usage to themes. We want to craft messaging that accurately
   represents the mission and values of Wikipedia while allowing us to hit our
   fundraising goals. Your comments matter and will continue to help guide the
   development of our appeals.

sam

On Thu, Aug 24, 2017 at 5:37 AM, Sam Wilson <s...@samwilson.id.au> wrote:

> Peter,
>
> Fair enough, I agree that the idea that Wikimedia would have been a
> success if it'd be made commercial is crazy. "Has it crossed my mind how
> much we could have made if it had ads? Sure. But it wouldn’t be the
> same." reads to me as just a hypothetical "if it were as it is today
> *and* had ads", rather than any serious suggestion that that would ever
> have been the case. I reckon it makes sense to the non-editor people
> it's aimed at.
>
> Anyway, about my grammar nickpicking? ;-)
>
> —Sam
>
> On Thu, 24 Aug 2017, at 05:06 PM, Peter Southwood wrote:
> > Sam,
> > I can't get back to the banner for some reason, so I risk misquoting it.
> > Please take this into account.
> > What I find offensive is the implication that the foundation would even
> > have Wikipedia if they were doing it commercially. I and a significant
> > number of other contributors would not have helped make it what it is
> > today if it had been a commercial site. To support this opinion, there do
> > not appear to be any commercial projects of this type even vaguely
> > approaching the success of Wikipedia. The banner implies that there would
> > be a roughly equivalent project available to sell. This I find offensive
> > as it denigrates the voluntary contributions done by all the unpaid
> > contributors.
> > I see this as misrepresentation and disrespect to the crowd that is the
> > source of the product, therefore offensive.
> > It is possible that I am alone in this opinion, but I suggest that a
> > survey of the people who actually created and maintain the content of
> > Wikipedia would show that I am not.
> > At this point, I suggest that WMF do just that, run a survey to find out
> > who builds the encyclopaedia, and how they feel about this. The golden
> > rule of crowdsourcing is don’t alienate the crowd, especially when they
> > are doing your work for free. The one thing we ask in return for our work
> > is a little recognition and respect, and to know that we do a thing
> > intrinsically worth doing. Again, I realise I do not necessarily speak
> > for everyone, but suspect that I speak for many.
> > Cheers,
> > Peter
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On
> > Behalf Of Sam Wilson
> > Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2017 10:26 AM
> > To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] New style banner - A heads up
> >
> > "Offensive" seems a bit over the top! Who's it offending? Seems pretty
> > okay to me, personally. :-)
> >
> > Anyway, the only thing I notice with it is that it starts with "We
> > will..." and then says "When I made..." etc. Shouldn't these pronouns
> > agree?
> >
> > —Sam.
> >
> > On Thu, 24 Aug 2017, at 04:07 PM, Peter Southwood wrote:
> > > The old style is excessively large and in your face. The new style is
> > > almost, but not quite as bad. The content remains offensive and
> > > misleading Cheers, Peter
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On
> > > Behalf Of Joseph Seddon
> > > Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2017 5:02 PM
>

Re: [Wikimedia-l] New style banner - A heads up

2017-08-24 Thread Sam Wilson
Peter,

Fair enough, I agree that the idea that Wikimedia would have been a
success if it'd be made commercial is crazy. "Has it crossed my mind how
much we could have made if it had ads? Sure. But it wouldn’t be the
same." reads to me as just a hypothetical "if it were as it is today
*and* had ads", rather than any serious suggestion that that would ever
have been the case. I reckon it makes sense to the non-editor people
it's aimed at.

Anyway, about my grammar nickpicking? ;-)

—Sam

On Thu, 24 Aug 2017, at 05:06 PM, Peter Southwood wrote:
> Sam,
> I can't get back to the banner for some reason, so I risk misquoting it.
> Please take this into account.
> What I find offensive is the implication that the foundation would even
> have Wikipedia if they were doing it commercially. I and a significant
> number of other contributors would not have helped make it what it is
> today if it had been a commercial site. To support this opinion, there do
> not appear to be any commercial projects of this type even vaguely
> approaching the success of Wikipedia. The banner implies that there would
> be a roughly equivalent project available to sell. This I find offensive
> as it denigrates the voluntary contributions done by all the unpaid
> contributors.
> I see this as misrepresentation and disrespect to the crowd that is the
> source of the product, therefore offensive.
> It is possible that I am alone in this opinion, but I suggest that a
> survey of the people who actually created and maintain the content of
> Wikipedia would show that I am not. 
> At this point, I suggest that WMF do just that, run a survey to find out
> who builds the encyclopaedia, and how they feel about this. The golden
> rule of crowdsourcing is don’t alienate the crowd, especially when they
> are doing your work for free. The one thing we ask in return for our work
> is a little recognition and respect, and to know that we do a thing
> intrinsically worth doing. Again, I realise I do not necessarily speak
> for everyone, but suspect that I speak for many.
> Cheers,
> Peter
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On
> Behalf Of Sam Wilson
> Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2017 10:26 AM
> To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] New style banner - A heads up
> 
> "Offensive" seems a bit over the top! Who's it offending? Seems pretty
> okay to me, personally. :-)
> 
> Anyway, the only thing I notice with it is that it starts with "We
> will..." and then says "When I made..." etc. Shouldn't these pronouns
> agree?
> 
> —Sam.
> 
> On Thu, 24 Aug 2017, at 04:07 PM, Peter Southwood wrote:
> > The old style is excessively large and in your face. The new style is 
> > almost, but not quite as bad. The content remains offensive and 
> > misleading Cheers, Peter
> > 
> > -Original Message-----
> > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On 
> > Behalf Of Joseph Seddon
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2017 5:02 PM
> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> > Subject: [Wikimedia-l] New style banner - A heads up
> > 
> > Hey Wikimedia-l
> > 
> > Apologies for the short notice.
> > 
> > I wanted to give you a heads up on a banner test that will soon be 
> > going live.
> > 
> > We've been working on a new style of banner that is specifically 
> > designed to have the same native look and feel as the rest of the site 
> > and interface. It's intended to be understated and you'll see is very 
> > different to our currently best performing banner:
> > 
> > Current:
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein?banner=B1718_0823_en6C_d
> > sk_p1_lg_dsn_cnt=1=US=QA
> > 
> > New Native feel:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein?banner=B1718_0823_en6C_dsk_p1_lg_dsn_native=1=US=QA
> > 
> > Any feedback is welcome.
> > 
> > Regards
> > 
> > --
> > Seddon
> > 
> > *Advancement Associate (Community Engagement)* *Wikimedia Foundation* 
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > 
> > 
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki

Re: [Wikimedia-l] New style banner - A heads up

2017-08-24 Thread Peter Southwood
Sam,
I can't get back to the banner for some reason, so I risk misquoting it. Please 
take this into account.
What I find offensive is the implication that the foundation would even have 
Wikipedia if they were doing it commercially. I and a significant number of 
other contributors would not have helped make it what it is today if it had 
been a commercial site. To support this opinion, there do not appear to be any 
commercial projects of this type even vaguely approaching the success of 
Wikipedia. The banner implies that there would be a roughly equivalent project 
available to sell. This I find offensive as it denigrates the voluntary 
contributions done by all the unpaid contributors.
I see this as misrepresentation and disrespect to the crowd that is the source 
of the product, therefore offensive.
It is possible that I am alone in this opinion, but I suggest that a survey of 
the people who actually created and maintain the content of Wikipedia would 
show that I am not. 
At this point, I suggest that WMF do just that, run a survey to find out who 
builds the encyclopaedia, and how they feel about this. The golden rule of 
crowdsourcing is don’t alienate the crowd, especially when they are doing your 
work for free. The one thing we ask in return for our work is a little 
recognition and respect, and to know that we do a thing intrinsically worth 
doing. Again, I realise I do not necessarily speak for everyone, but suspect 
that I speak for many.
Cheers,
Peter

-Original Message-
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of 
Sam Wilson
Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2017 10:26 AM
To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] New style banner - A heads up

"Offensive" seems a bit over the top! Who's it offending? Seems pretty okay to 
me, personally. :-)

Anyway, the only thing I notice with it is that it starts with "We will..." and 
then says "When I made..." etc. Shouldn't these pronouns agree?

—Sam.

On Thu, 24 Aug 2017, at 04:07 PM, Peter Southwood wrote:
> The old style is excessively large and in your face. The new style is 
> almost, but not quite as bad. The content remains offensive and 
> misleading Cheers, Peter
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On 
> Behalf Of Joseph Seddon
> Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2017 5:02 PM
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] New style banner - A heads up
> 
> Hey Wikimedia-l
> 
> Apologies for the short notice.
> 
> I wanted to give you a heads up on a banner test that will soon be 
> going live.
> 
> We've been working on a new style of banner that is specifically 
> designed to have the same native look and feel as the rest of the site 
> and interface. It's intended to be understated and you'll see is very 
> different to our currently best performing banner:
> 
> Current:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein?banner=B1718_0823_en6C_d
> sk_p1_lg_dsn_cnt=1=US=QA
> 
> New Native feel:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein?banner=B1718_0823_en6C_d
> sk_p1_lg_dsn_native=1=US=QA
> 
> Any feedback is welcome.
> 
> Regards
> 
> --
> Seddon
> 
> *Advancement Associate (Community Engagement)* *Wikimedia Foundation* 
> ___
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] New style banner - A heads up

2017-08-24 Thread Peter Southwood
Robert,
We were warned, so it would be very strange if we did. 
You should survey a different sample to get realistic results. 
Or is this a rhetorical question?
Cheers,
Peter

-Original Message-
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of 
Robert Fernandez
Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2017 4:54 AM
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] New style banner - A heads up

Is anyone actually confusing the banner with article content, or are they just 
assuming others will do so?
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] New style banner - A heads up

2017-08-24 Thread Sam Wilson
"Offensive" seems a bit over the top! Who's it offending? Seems pretty
okay to me, personally. :-)

Anyway, the only thing I notice with it is that it starts with "We
will..." and then says "When I made..." etc. Shouldn't these pronouns
agree?

—Sam.

On Thu, 24 Aug 2017, at 04:07 PM, Peter Southwood wrote:
> The old style is excessively large and in your face. The new style is
> almost, but not quite as bad. The content remains offensive and
> misleading
> Cheers,
> Peter
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On
> Behalf Of Joseph Seddon
> Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2017 5:02 PM
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] New style banner - A heads up
> 
> Hey Wikimedia-l
> 
> Apologies for the short notice.
> 
> I wanted to give you a heads up on a banner test that will soon be going
> live.
> 
> We've been working on a new style of banner that is specifically designed
> to have the same native look and feel as the rest of the site and
> interface. It's intended to be understated and you'll see is very
> different to our currently best performing banner:
> 
> Current:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein?banner=B1718_0823_en6C_dsk_p1_lg_dsn_cnt=1=US=QA
> 
> New Native feel:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein?banner=B1718_0823_en6C_dsk_p1_lg_dsn_native=1=US=QA
> 
> Any feedback is welcome.
> 
> Regards
> 
> --
> Seddon
> 
> *Advancement Associate (Community Engagement)* *Wikimedia Foundation*
> ___
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] New style banner - A heads up

2017-08-24 Thread Peter Southwood
The old style is excessively large and in your face. The new style is almost, 
but not quite as bad. The content remains offensive and misleading
Cheers,
Peter

-Original Message-
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of 
Joseph Seddon
Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2017 5:02 PM
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: [Wikimedia-l] New style banner - A heads up

Hey Wikimedia-l

Apologies for the short notice.

I wanted to give you a heads up on a banner test that will soon be going live.

We've been working on a new style of banner that is specifically designed to 
have the same native look and feel as the rest of the site and interface. It's 
intended to be understated and you'll see is very different to our currently 
best performing banner:

Current:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein?banner=B1718_0823_en6C_dsk_p1_lg_dsn_cnt=1=US=QA

New Native feel:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein?banner=B1718_0823_en6C_dsk_p1_lg_dsn_native=1=US=QA

Any feedback is welcome.

Regards

--
Seddon

*Advancement Associate (Community Engagement)* *Wikimedia Foundation* 
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] New style banner - A heads up

2017-08-23 Thread MZMcBride
Brad Jorsch (Anomie) wrote:
>Personally, I really dislike banners that try to pretend to be content.
>This one makes it look like the page is an article titled "To all our
>readers in the U.S." rather than a page with a banner on it.

This type of design is similar to, if not precisely, "native advertising"
and it should be shunned as the unethical and completely unwelcome
practice that it is.

The issue of injecting advertisements into the content area of articles
has come up repeatedly on this mailing list and elsewhere. As has the
issue of hostilely overtaking the viewing area of an article with an
obnoxious pop-up banner demanding money, not unlike ransomware. I believe
we're even still setting a cookie to hide advertisements from people who
have recently donated money. It doesn't seem like a very far stretch to
darkly think of this type of behavior as extortive and pay-to-play.

MZMcBride



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Re: [Wikimedia-l] New style banner - A heads up

2017-08-23 Thread Risker
I think they continue to display the absolutely most irritating behaviour
of the old banners, which is the several second delay between the screen
that shows the content, and the overlaid banner that in the "old" baner
covers the content someone has already started reading and in the "new"
banner pushes down the content almost a full screen length and makes the
reader lose his or her place.  Frankly, I don't think whether or not the
"banner" looks like content is as much an issue as getting the banner to
show up at the same time as the page content.  I've been told, without
attribution, that this is intentional in order to really draw attention to
the banners, and I periodically see it on other websites as well. My
personal response is always the same: close the overlaying window and avoid
returning to the website if I can.

Of the two, though, I prefer the banner that pushes down the content over
the one that covers it because I could still navigate through the article.
(For the record, I am on a fast computer and using the highest speed
internet available for residential use in Canada - and the second banner
managed to still freeze my computer.)

Risker/Anne

On 23 August 2017 at 22:53, Robert Fernandez  wrote:

> Is anyone actually confusing the banner with article content, or are they
> just assuming others will do so?
> ___
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] New style banner - A heads up

2017-08-23 Thread Robert Fernandez
Is anyone actually confusing the banner with article content, or are they
just assuming others will do so?
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] New style banner - A heads up

2017-08-23 Thread Pax Ahimsa Gethen

On 8/23/17 2:33 PM, Michael Peel wrote:

On 23 Aug 2017, at 13:36, Shlomi Fish  wrote:

Hi all,

On Wed, 23 Aug 2017 11:51:02 -0400
"Brad Jorsch (Anomie)" > 
wrote:


On Wed, Aug 23, 2017 at 11:01 AM, Joseph Seddon 
wrote:


New Native feel:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein?banner=B1718_
0823_en6C_dsk_p1_lg_dsn_native=1=US=QA


Personally, I really dislike banners that try to pretend to be content.
This one makes it look like the page is an article titled "To all our
readers in the U.S." rather than a page with a banner on it.


to me the new banner looks more attractive, less intrusive and cleaner, but I
agree with Brad's sentiment that it looks too much like the main page's
content. Just my 20 agoroth.

+1. At the least it needs some sort of a border around it to separate it from 
the article text, so it doesn't look like an article section at first glance.

Thanks,
Mike
+1 here as well. Some sort of clear separating border or shading to 
distinguish the banner from the article content is needed.


- Pax aka Funcrunch

--
Pax Ahimsa Gethen | p...@funcrunch.org | http://funcrunch.org | Pronouns: 
they/them/their


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] New style banner - A heads up

2017-08-23 Thread Michael Maggs
When viewed on my iPhone the 'New Native Feel' version has *five* full 
screens of text headed 'To all our readers in the US'.  To be honest, 
unless I had known about this in advance I would have thought I'd been 
directed to the wrong page.  I'd never bother to scroll down that far to 
get to the actual content, as I would have no reason to believe I was 
even in the right place to see it.


The reason it takes so many screenfuls is that all the text from 'We 
will get straight to the point ..' onwards is crowed into a narrow 
column on the left hand side, with the rest of the screen being blank.


Hope that helps.

Michael

Joseph Seddon wrote:

Hey Wikimedia-l

Apologies for the short notice.

I wanted to give you a heads up on a banner test that will soon be going
live.

We've been working on a new style of banner that is specifically designed
to have the same native look and feel as the rest of the site and
interface. It's intended to be understated and you'll see is very different
to our currently best performing banner:

Current:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein?banner=B1718_0823_en6C_dsk_p1_lg_dsn_cnt=1=US=QA

New Native feel:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein?banner=B1718_0823_en6C_dsk_p1_lg_dsn_native=1=US=QA

Any feedback is welcome.

Regards




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Re: [Wikimedia-l] New style banner - A heads up

2017-08-23 Thread Michael Peel

> On 23 Aug 2017, at 13:36, Shlomi Fish  wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> On Wed, 23 Aug 2017 11:51:02 -0400
> "Brad Jorsch (Anomie)" > 
> wrote:
> 
>> On Wed, Aug 23, 2017 at 11:01 AM, Joseph Seddon 
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> New Native feel:
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein?banner=B1718_
>>> 0823_en6C_dsk_p1_lg_dsn_native=1=US=QA
>>> 
>> 
>> Personally, I really dislike banners that try to pretend to be content.
>> This one makes it look like the page is an article titled "To all our
>> readers in the U.S." rather than a page with a banner on it.
>> 
> 
> to me the new banner looks more attractive, less intrusive and cleaner, but I
> agree with Brad's sentiment that it looks too much like the main page's
> content. Just my 20 agoroth.

+1. At the least it needs some sort of a border around it to separate it from 
the article text, so it doesn't look like an article section at first glance.

Thanks,
Mike

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] New style banner - A heads up

2017-08-23 Thread Shlomi Fish
Hi all,

On Wed, 23 Aug 2017 11:51:02 -0400
"Brad Jorsch (Anomie)"  wrote:

> On Wed, Aug 23, 2017 at 11:01 AM, Joseph Seddon 
> wrote:
> 
> > New Native feel:
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein?banner=B1718_
> > 0823_en6C_dsk_p1_lg_dsn_native=1=US=QA
> >  
> 
> Personally, I really dislike banners that try to pretend to be content.
> This one makes it look like the page is an article titled "To all our
> readers in the U.S." rather than a page with a banner on it.
> 

to me the new banner looks more attractive, less intrusive and cleaner, but I
agree with Brad's sentiment that it looks too much like the main page's
content. Just my 20 agoroth.

Regards,

Shlomi

-- 
-
Shlomi Fish   http://www.shlomifish.org/
UNIX Fortune Cookies - http://www.shlomifish.org/humour/fortunes/

Chuck Norris does not keep any numbers on his mobile phone’s address book.
Instead, he memorised the entire phone directory.
— http://www.shlomifish.org/humour/bits/facts/Chuck-Norris/

Please reply to list if it's a mailing list post - http://shlom.in/reply .

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] New style banner - A heads up

2017-08-23 Thread Brad Jorsch (Anomie)
On Wed, Aug 23, 2017 at 12:03 PM, Lodewijk 
wrote:

> I can see that confusing people is not what we should be aiming for :)
> Would it help sooth your mind when there is a clear distinction between
> content and banner, even if the look and feel is the same? (I can imagine
> that you could accomplish this by doing the banner at full site width, for
> example)
>

I suspect making a clear distinction and making it use the same look and
feel are opposing goals. But I'm not a very good designer, maybe you can
make it work somehow.


> but at the same time I recognize that community
> members have been asking Fundraising to make the banners less 'in your
> face' and 'ad-like' (which is by far the obvious way to make sure nobody
> gets confused about the seperation).
>

My gut feeling there is that those people will consider a full-page ad as
being "in your face" whether it looks like a traditional banner or like
content.

Personally, I'd rather have clearly demarcated ads. When ads try to blend
into content too well, I feel like the advertiser is trying to trick me.


-- 
Brad Jorsch (Anomie)
Senior Software Engineer
Wikimedia Foundation
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] New style banner - A heads up

2017-08-23 Thread Lodewijk
Hey Brad,

I can see that confusing people is not what we should be aiming for :)
Would it help sooth your mind when there is a clear distinction between
content and banner, even if the look and feel is the same? (I can imagine
that you could accomplish this by doing the banner at full site width, for
example)
Just thinking out loud here, because I can resonate with your objection to
this particular design - but at the same time I recognize that community
members have been asking Fundraising to make the banners less 'in your
face' and 'ad-like' (which is by far the obvious way to make sure nobody
gets confused about the seperation).

Best,
Lodewijk

On Wed, Aug 23, 2017 at 11:51 AM, Brad Jorsch (Anomie) <
bjor...@wikimedia.org> wrote:

> On Wed, Aug 23, 2017 at 11:01 AM, Joseph Seddon 
> wrote:
>
> > New Native feel:
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein?banner=B1718_
> > 0823_en6C_dsk_p1_lg_dsn_native=1=US=QA
> >
>
> Personally, I really dislike banners that try to pretend to be content.
> This one makes it look like the page is an article titled "To all our
> readers in the U.S." rather than a page with a banner on it.
>
> --
> Brad Jorsch (Anomie)
> Senior Software Engineer
> Wikimedia Foundation
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] New style banner - A heads up

2017-08-23 Thread Brad Jorsch (Anomie)
On Wed, Aug 23, 2017 at 11:01 AM, Joseph Seddon 
wrote:

> New Native feel:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein?banner=B1718_
> 0823_en6C_dsk_p1_lg_dsn_native=1=US=QA
>

Personally, I really dislike banners that try to pretend to be content.
This one makes it look like the page is an article titled "To all our
readers in the U.S." rather than a page with a banner on it.

-- 
Brad Jorsch (Anomie)
Senior Software Engineer
Wikimedia Foundation
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[Wikimedia-l] New style banner - A heads up

2017-08-23 Thread Joseph Seddon
Hey Wikimedia-l

Apologies for the short notice.

I wanted to give you a heads up on a banner test that will soon be going
live.

We've been working on a new style of banner that is specifically designed
to have the same native look and feel as the rest of the site and
interface. It's intended to be understated and you'll see is very different
to our currently best performing banner:

Current:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein?banner=B1718_0823_en6C_dsk_p1_lg_dsn_cnt=1=US=QA

New Native feel:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein?banner=B1718_0823_en6C_dsk_p1_lg_dsn_native=1=US=QA

Any feedback is welcome.

Regards

-- 
Seddon

*Advancement Associate (Community Engagement)*
*Wikimedia Foundation*
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