Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid editing v. paid advocacy (editing)

2014-01-13 Thread Stevie Benton
Andrew sums up the situation in the UK very well. For some Wikimedian in
Residence positions they are entirely funded by the chapter. Others involve
funding from both the institution and the chapter. A third model involves a
residency being funded by a third party. For example, there's a residency
which is being announced later this week working with a leading health
charity which is being funded by a third party. It's not announced publicly
yet, so can't give details, but watch this space!

Stevie


On 12 January 2014 19:26, Erlend Bjørtvedt erl...@wikimedia.no wrote:

 In Norway, without exception; all 5 wikipedians in residence are either
 paid by the institution (3) or they are retired pensioners from their
 institution. No one paid by chapter or wmf. This means they 'belong' to the
 institution and feel quite a lot lotalty there.

 Erlend
  Den 12. jan. 2014 13:13 skrev Andrew Gray andrew.g...@dunelm.org.uk
 følgende:

  It varies. Some are essentially unfunded or self-funded; some are
  institutionally funded; some are funded by chapter-sourced grants;
  some are funded by third parties (I was!); and a mix of #2 and #3 is
  not uncommon.
 
  Andrew.
 
  On 12 January 2014 10:06, Andre Engels andreeng...@gmail.com wrote:
   On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 10:06 PM, Andreas Kolbe jayen...@gmail.com
  wrote:
  
   Which reminds me – I often think it odd that Wikimedia will fund a
   Wikipedian-in-Residence for some regional tourist attraction (think
 the
   Welsh Coastal Path project, or the York Museum),
  
  
   Wikipedians-in-Residence are not funded by Wikimedia, but by the
   organisation where they are working with.
  
   --
   André Engels, andreeng...@gmail.com
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Head of External Relations
Wikimedia UK
+44 (0) 20 7065 0993 / +44 (0) 7803 505 173
@StevieBenton

Wikimedia UK is a Company Limited by Guarantee registered in England
and Wales, Registered No. 6741827. Registered Charity No.1144513.
Registered Office 4th Floor, Development House, 56-64 Leonard Street,
London EC2A 4LT. United Kingdom. Wikimedia UK is the UK chapter of a
global Wikimedia movement. The Wikimedia projects are run by the
Wikimedia Foundation (who operate Wikipedia, amongst other projects).

*Wikimedia UK is an independent non-profit charity with no legal
control over Wikipedia nor responsibility for its contents.*
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid editing v. paid advocacy (editing)

2014-01-12 Thread Andre Engels
On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 10:06 PM, Andreas Kolbe jayen...@gmail.com wrote:

 Which reminds me – I often think it odd that Wikimedia will fund a
 Wikipedian-in-Residence for some regional tourist attraction (think the
 Welsh Coastal Path project, or the York Museum),


Wikipedians-in-Residence are not funded by Wikimedia, but by the
organisation where they are working with.

-- 
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid editing v. paid advocacy (editing)

2014-01-12 Thread Andreas Kolbe
On Sun, Jan 12, 2014 at 10:06 AM, Andre Engels andreeng...@gmail.comwrote:

 On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 10:06 PM, Andreas Kolbe jayen...@gmail.com
 wrote:

  Which reminds me – I often think it odd that Wikimedia will fund a
  Wikipedian-in-Residence for some regional tourist attraction (think the
  Welsh Coastal Path project, or the York Museum),
 

 Wikipedians-in-Residence are not funded by Wikimedia, but by the
 organisation where they are working with.



Not so. Joint funding is common, and substantial funds from donations go to
such projects.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid editing v. paid advocacy (editing)

2014-01-12 Thread Craig Franklin
On 12 January 2014 02:58, MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com wrote:

 Craig Franklin wrote:
 I think it's actually foolish to try and split hairs over what is
 acceptable paid editing and what is unacceptable paid editing.  The facts
 of the matter are that paid editing is taking place right now, and it will
 continue to take place regardless of whatever bright lines are drawn in
 the sand.  The only question is whether it's done in a covert manner, or a
 transparent manner.
 
 Rather than arguing over the irrelevant question of whether it is
 desirable to have paid editing or not, we need instead to be talking
 about how we are going to handle it.  To my view, that should be
 requiring that anyone editing for money be upfront about their intentions
 and their edits, and letting the community scrutinise those edits and
 deal with them just like they'd deal with them if they came from any
 other editor.

 Perhaps you're correct, though I'll note that in the recent oDesk case,
 you had both a real name and photo attached to the activities, along with
 a public profile describing (and rating!) the activities. That seems
 fairly transparent to me, yet it still resulted in an immediate departure.


I was thinking more along the lines of a centralised disclosure list where
people can say My name is X, my user account is Y, and I am doing paid
editing on article Z.  Such a thing would of course invite a lot more
scrutiny on the articles in question, which would mean that they're less
likely to devolve into hagiography.  From what I can see this is already
working quite well and without controversy at places like dewp.  We already
have rules (on enwp at least) about promotional language, spam,
sockpuppeting, and the like; I don't see any compelling reason we need
another separate bunch of rules to deal with these situations in the
special case where someone is being paid to edit.

Cheers,
Craig
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid editing v. paid advocacy (editing)

2014-01-12 Thread Craig Franklin
Detail ;-).  Probably the language of the project that the paid edits are
occurring on, I'd imagine.

Cheers,
Craig


On 12 January 2014 21:58, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hoi,
 In what language does this disclosure have to be ??
 Thanks,
  Gerard


 On 12 January 2014 12:29, Craig Franklin cfrank...@halonetwork.netwrote:

 On 12 January 2014 02:58, MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com wrote:

  Craig Franklin wrote:
  I think it's actually foolish to try and split hairs over what is
  acceptable paid editing and what is unacceptable paid editing.  The
 facts
  of the matter are that paid editing is taking place right now, and it
 will
  continue to take place regardless of whatever bright lines are drawn
 in
  the sand.  The only question is whether it's done in a covert manner,
 or a
  transparent manner.
  
  Rather than arguing over the irrelevant question of whether it is
  desirable to have paid editing or not, we need instead to be talking
  about how we are going to handle it.  To my view, that should be
  requiring that anyone editing for money be upfront about their
 intentions
  and their edits, and letting the community scrutinise those edits and
  deal with them just like they'd deal with them if they came from any
  other editor.
 
  Perhaps you're correct, though I'll note that in the recent oDesk case,
  you had both a real name and photo attached to the activities, along
 with
  a public profile describing (and rating!) the activities. That seems
  fairly transparent to me, yet it still resulted in an immediate
 departure.


 I was thinking more along the lines of a centralised disclosure list where
 people can say My name is X, my user account is Y, and I am doing paid
 editing on article Z.  Such a thing would of course invite a lot more
 scrutiny on the articles in question, which would mean that they're less
 likely to devolve into hagiography.  From what I can see this is already
 working quite well and without controversy at places like dewp.  We
 already
 have rules (on enwp at least) about promotional language, spam,
 sockpuppeting, and the like; I don't see any compelling reason we need
 another separate bunch of rules to deal with these situations in the
 special case where someone is being paid to edit.

 Cheers,
 Craig
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid editing v. paid advocacy (editing)

2014-01-12 Thread Dariusz Jemielniak
On Sun, Jan 12, 2014 at 12:29 PM, Craig Franklin
cfrank...@halonetwork.netwrote:



 I was thinking more along the lines of a centralised disclosure list where
 people can say My name is X, my user account is Y, and I am doing paid
 editing on article Z.  Such a thing would of course invite a lot more
 scrutiny on the articles in question, which would mean that they're less
 likely to devolve into hagiography.  From what I can see this is already
 working quite well and without controversy at places like dewp.  We already
 have rules (on enwp at least) about promotional language, spam,
 sockpuppeting, and the like; I don't see any compelling reason we need
 another separate bunch of rules to deal with these situations in the
 special case where someone is being paid to edit.


this is exactly along the lines I've  been thinking along, too. In the
Daily Dot I was suggesting special tagging -  a special flag for paid
editors/accounts would allow for a much better social control of such edits
(and those, who try to dodge the label would be treated like
vandals/sockpuppeteers). This would address the language issues as well.

dariusz pundit
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid editing v. paid advocacy (editing)

2014-01-12 Thread Andrew Gray
It varies. Some are essentially unfunded or self-funded; some are
institutionally funded; some are funded by chapter-sourced grants;
some are funded by third parties (I was!); and a mix of #2 and #3 is
not uncommon.

Andrew.

On 12 January 2014 10:06, Andre Engels andreeng...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 10:06 PM, Andreas Kolbe jayen...@gmail.com wrote:

 Which reminds me – I often think it odd that Wikimedia will fund a
 Wikipedian-in-Residence for some regional tourist attraction (think the
 Welsh Coastal Path project, or the York Museum),


 Wikipedians-in-Residence are not funded by Wikimedia, but by the
 organisation where they are working with.

 --
 André Engels, andreeng...@gmail.com
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid editing v. paid advocacy (editing)

2014-01-11 Thread Andreas Kolbe
On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 8:35 PM, Ting Chen wing.phil...@gmx.de wrote:

 Hello Peter,

 I see the following two possibilities:

 Either the paid editing brings a higher quality and thus by that quality
 imposes itself as an authority and thus discourage further unqualified
 editing

 Or the paid editing does not bring a higher quality, then an unpaid
 volunteer editor will with right feel fooled and ask: Why does that person
 get paid and I not, it is obvious that my work is less valued and thus I
 will quit.

 In both cases I come back to my conclusion, and that is paid editing
 changes the collaboratory nature of our projects.




The question to ask here is, what is the primary purpose of Wikipedia? Is
it a social media site, or is it a project designed to build a free
encyclopedia?

It seems to me the Wikimedia Foundation measures its success primarily by
the following metrics:

1. Number of page views.
2. Number of articles.
3. Number of editors.
4. Number of edits.

These are the main metrics I see reported. They are all purely
quantitative, social media-type metrics, focused on participation. Where
are the metrics measuring the *quality* of the end product, the free
information provided to the world in the shape of encyclopedia articles?

Purely quantitative metrics may have been appropriate in the early years of
the project, when building participation was crucial. But given Wikipedia's
importance in the information landscape today, measuring and improving
quality should be a far higher priority than it presently is, in my eyes.

And it should be borne in mind that a high number of edits may actually be
detrimental to article quality: if an article is heavily edited, saying one
thing today and another tomorrow, this is very often a sign that something
is wrong with the way the content is curated.

Example: http://wikipediocracy.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Klee-Irwin.gif

Similarly, a high number of articles may be good for page views, but may
prove detrimental to article quality, as the shrinking editor community is
too stretched to curate such a large and increasing number of articles
responsibly. I believe his point has been reached already, resulting in
very large numbers of truly substandard articles that nobody is available
to monitor and improve.

Again, my feeling is that this focus on quantity, on participation for
participation's sake, along with the attendant problems, is particularly
pronounced in the English Wikipedia.




 Greetings
 Ting


 Am 10.01.2014 16:23, schrieb Peter Gervai:

 On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 1:40 PM, Ting Chen wing.phil...@gmx.de wrote:

  Wikipedia articles. So they pay 10.000 Dollar to Bryce DeWitt (I know,
 he is
 dead, I just don't want to name any living people) to write about field
 theory, or John Wheeler to write about general relativity, and so on and
 so
 on. I wonder if this happens, would there still be anyone who dares to
 change or write articles on topics about theoretical physics? If this

 I understand your intentions but the example was faulty, as you mix up
 paid editing with authority or celebrity status.

 If Albert Einstein wrote an article about relativity (not paid by
 anyone but because he really likes to share his knowledge) nobody
 really would dare to chime in.

 However John Doe, Jr., however he's paid isn't special and people will
 trim his advocacy way more than a normal one.

 In fact authority is not equal to article protection and humble
 silence: we had pleny of cases where notable academics went away in
 flaming anger because a nobody questioned their authority and
 requested, for example, external sources or proofs.

 I believe paid advocacy vs. paid article writing destinction is
 valid and important; as well as the general article writing vs.
 advocacy distinction, which may not be black and white but it's
 definitely a separate hue or brightness. :-)

 Peter

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid editing v. paid advocacy (editing)

2014-01-11 Thread MZMcBride
Gerard Meijssen wrote:
I want to open up the discussion even wider. The way things are stated is
that paid editing is not acceptable.


I'm not sure what you mean.

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Paid_editing is still a very rough draft,
but the first sentence is currently:

---
Paid editing is fairly common on Wikimedia wikis. It takes various forms,
with a few being widely accepted and a few being incredibly controversial.
---

I would like Wikimedia to be explicit about what is and is not acceptable
for editors. If Wikidata takes a different approach, we should document
that as well. But the goal isn't to pr[oe]scribe, it's to describe.

Some of the posts from this mailing list may be very helpful in expanding
that page. I'm sure there are many other past discussions from the various
wikis and mailing lists we can incorporate as well. Be bold. :-)  If it's
just the page title you'd like to change, I agree that the current page
title (Paid editing) is not great. The Conflict of interest editing
page has some related content, but that title also didn't feel right to me.

MZMcBride



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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid editing v. paid advocacy (editing)

2014-01-11 Thread David Goodman
I've looked at a great deal of detectable  paid editing on the english WP.
 Only about 10% of it is of acceptable   quality, with respect to both
notability
of subject and quality of contents.  On similar topics, the quality of
volunteer editing is considerably better--at least 30% is acceptable.
 (about half the enWP submissions have always been rejected at one stage or
another, even with our relatively very undemanding standards).

Like Andrew,  I consider the work on non-profits, especially universities,
to be even worse than the work on commercial businesses, both for paid and
unpaid edits--this is partly enthusiastic alumni, but also the very low
quality of most organizational PR departments)

Unpaid advocacy is a much more difficult problem, because its much harder
to sort out from honest attempts at NPOV. I see no solution to that one
without our general framework.





On Sat, Jan 11, 2014 at 2:15 PM, MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com wrote:

 Gerard Meijssen wrote:
 I want to open up the discussion even wider. The way things are stated is
 that paid editing is not acceptable.


 I'm not sure what you mean.

 https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Paid_editing is still a very rough draft,
 but the first sentence is currently:

 ---
 Paid editing is fairly common on Wikimedia wikis. It takes various forms,
 with a few being widely accepted and a few being incredibly controversial.
 ---

 I would like Wikimedia to be explicit about what is and is not acceptable
 for editors. If Wikidata takes a different approach, we should document
 that as well. But the goal isn't to pr[oe]scribe, it's to describe.

 Some of the posts from this mailing list may be very helpful in expanding
 that page. I'm sure there are many other past discussions from the various
 wikis and mailing lists we can incorporate as well. Be bold. :-)  If it's
 just the page title you'd like to change, I agree that the current page
 title (Paid editing) is not great. The Conflict of interest editing
 page has some related content, but that title also didn't feel right to me.

 MZMcBride



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DGG at the enWP
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid editing v. paid advocacy (editing)

2014-01-10 Thread Christophe Henner
Hi everyone,

I'll try to elaborate on this topic :)

First of all, in 2011 in Haifa I did a first talk about companies and
Wikipedia. I did that because I was making a study (emphasis on the
 as I'm not keen to say it's a study and more of a detailed
observation) of the state of the articles of the top 40 french
companies.

During that talk I explained how I believe companies could help us
improve our projects. I won't get too much into that as, since then,
the debate evolved from companies editing Wikipedia to Paid editing
is evil.

This year at Wikimania I gave two talks about this very topic, one
about how third party organizations can help us and the second on a
framework to have editing.

Of course, as usual, some people were against it.

But how can we, as a community, be against paid editing on one hand
when on the other hand we seek paid editing from GLAMs, researchers
from state organizations, etc.

The question whether we allow, or not, paid editing is non-existent.
Paid editing is allowed, we already allowed it, we even support it;

Now, the question about paid advocacy. Again, one of our core
principle is NPOV. We don't want people to push their POV. Whether
they're paid or not, is not relevant.

So, to me, the paid foobar question is not the one in debate here.
The one we're actually debating about is do we want for profit
organization to edit Wikipedia.

So yes, paid organizations have an interest in editing Wikipedia, but
just as much as GLAMs have an interest in editing our projects. In
fact, when Wikimedian meets GLAMs one of the key arguments is look at
(pick past project that got great coverage such as the bundesarchives,
British Museum, etc). We show them they have an interest in
committing resources, both financial and human, to improve Wikimedia
projects.

So the they have an interest in editing isn't an argument in the
end, as, of course a lot of editors have an interest in editing. And
we're using it. When we think or work on how researchers valorize
their edits in their cursus, those researchers have an interest in
editing Wikipedia.

So, really what is that people working for a company have that makes
it so we have to ban them to edit? If we already have people paid to
edit, if we have people with interests (henceforth some sort of COI),
what do they have the others don't?

Now, why do I strongly believe we should encourage companies to edit Wikipedia.

First of all, as I said some years ago I evaluated the quality of
company articles on the French Wikipedia. Most of them were crap.
Either outdated, incomplete or with wrong information, all those
articles were poor; And we're talking about the top 40 french
companies, such as Orange, L'Oréal, Renault, BNP, etc.

The volunteer community isn't keen to improve and maintain those
articles. Companies are willing to do it. So we prefer to have poor
articles instead of good ones because there's a risk companies will
act wrongfully (I hope I'm not the only one to see the irony in this
situation where we prefer to ban editors because there's a risk
they'll do wrong. We should do that for all the projects, Close them
to editing because there's a risk people will do wrong.).

Adapting our projects to provide a framework where companies can
easily fit in and edit as a direct consequence, improve the quality of
their articles.

Companies that have the resources to commit to such things are,
usually, big and sometimes old company. Imagine that in a few year,
being involved with the Wikimedia projects is so natural for those
companies that they release their archives on the Wikimedia Projects.
What archives do you ask?

Orange, for example, is the former organization in charge of the
french telecom. They managed telephone for a very long time and have a
long history in RD. Their archives must be astounding. Containing
documents, pictures and videos about telecomunication that should be
awesome. That are part of our history.
Right now, those archives are dusting in some building. And in few
years they might disappear.
Our stance, being so opposed to companies making the first step
(editing) prevent companies to go the next step, release. And in fact,
indirectly, we're preventing knowledge to be freed. Awesome.

Lastly, those companies have huge RD budgets and employ thousands of
researchers and engineers. Imagine a company that employs 1 000
researchers. And imagine that company to do 2 things:
1/ that a company, as part of its CSR politic, says they commit 1 day
per year per researcher to improve one article. And to provide to
those researchers a one day training session about Wikipedia. This
means 1 000 days of editing from specialized researchers and 1 000
researchers evangelized and trained to edit.
2/ that this company would commit 0.0001% of it's RD global budget to
open a QA desk so wikimedians could ask their researchers for
bibliography or proof reading articles

Those things are not wild dreams, they could definitely happen

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid editing v. paid advocacy (editing)

2014-01-10 Thread Ting Chen

Hello dear all,

I would like to be more cautious about the difference between the good 
paid editing and the bad paid advocacy.


There are two reasons why I don't want to separate in this way.

First of there is no clear boundary between the good and bad like 
black and white. There is a gradient of grey between the two. And that 
gradient is not a narrow one but a very broad one. And it depends from 
the perspective of the people who look upon the matter. For one maybe a 
behavior is the dark white but for the other one it may be a bright black.


Second I want to especially respond to the idea that Erik brought up: an 
organization that hire people to write qualified articles. I wrote in 
the other mail that I believe paid editing changes the collaboratory 
nature of our projects but did not really elaborate on why I think so. I 
want to do this now. Let me construct an example to emphasize why I 
think so. I will now take an example which leaves almost no room for 
interpretation about black and white: the theoretical physics. Let's say 
there is a charitable non-profit organization that hires reknowned 
theoretical physicists to write Wikipedia articles. So they pay 10.000 
Dollar to Bryce DeWitt (I know, he is dead, I just don't want to name 
any living people) to write about field theory, or John Wheeler to write 
about general relativity, and so on and so on. I wonder if this happens, 
would there still be anyone who dares to change or write articles on 
topics about theoretical physics? If this becomes a model that many 
follow, I feel it will largely change the composition of our volunteers 
community and how the project will look like. This is basically an 
approach that the Nupedia tried at the beginning. It didn't work that 
time. Meanwhile Wikipedia gains such a reputation that the model may 
work. But I personally don't find the idea sexy.


Greetings
Ting

Am 09.01.2014 03:22, schrieb MZMcBride:

Frank Schulenburg wrote:

[...] it is widely known that paid editing is frowned upon by many in the
editing community and by the Wikimedia Foundation.

No.

Paid editing is not the same as paid advocacy (editing). This is a very
important point.

Suggested reading:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Dominic/FAQ
https://blog.wikimedia.org/?p=25830

N.B. an example of paid editing that few would likely have an issue with
in the first link and Sue's careful and correct wording in the second link.

If we're going to have such a fine distinction, we should probably better
document it to avoid misunderstandings.

MZMcBride



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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid editing v. paid advocacy (editing)

2014-01-10 Thread Anders Wennersten
Thanks Christophe for your long ,but very good thoughts and experiences 
from paid editing from pro-profit organization.


I fully  support your approach and hope we can put energy, instead of 
just being against, to elaborate on how to best handle the reality 
that pro-profit organization do paid editing. Should we ask them to be 
be open with their userids  relation to their companies/organizations 
for example, which I think is the (only) wish we should have (and paid 
editors from GLAM already do this) .



Anders




Christophe Henner skrev 2014-01-10 13:34:

Hi everyone,

I'll try to elaborate on this topic :)

First of all, in 2011 in Haifa I did a first talk about companies and
Wikipedia. I did that because I was making a study (emphasis on the
 as I'm not keen to say it's a study and more of a detailed
observation) of the state of the articles of the top 40 french
companies.

During that talk I explained how I believe companies could help us
improve our projects. I won't get too much into that as, since then,
the debate evolved from companies editing Wikipedia to Paid editing
is evil.

This year at Wikimania I gave two talks about this very topic, one
about how third party organizations can help us and the second on a
framework to have editing.

Of course, as usual, some people were against it.

But how can we, as a community, be against paid editing on one hand
when on the other hand we seek paid editing from GLAMs, researchers
from state organizations, etc.

The question whether we allow, or not, paid editing is non-existent.
Paid editing is allowed, we already allowed it, we even support it;

Now, the question about paid advocacy. Again, one of our core
principle is NPOV. We don't want people to push their POV. Whether
they're paid or not, is not relevant.

So, to me, the paid foobar question is not the one in debate here.
The one we're actually debating about is do we want for profit
organization to edit Wikipedia.

So yes, paid organizations have an interest in editing Wikipedia, but
just as much as GLAMs have an interest in editing our projects. In
fact, when Wikimedian meets GLAMs one of the key arguments is look at
(pick past project that got great coverage such as the bundesarchives,
British Museum, etc). We show them they have an interest in
committing resources, both financial and human, to improve Wikimedia
projects.

So the they have an interest in editing isn't an argument in the
end, as, of course a lot of editors have an interest in editing. And
we're using it. When we think or work on how researchers valorize
their edits in their cursus, those researchers have an interest in
editing Wikipedia.

So, really what is that people working for a company have that makes
it so we have to ban them to edit? If we already have people paid to
edit, if we have people with interests (henceforth some sort of COI),
what do they have the others don't?

Now, why do I strongly believe we should encourage companies to edit Wikipedia.

First of all, as I said some years ago I evaluated the quality of
company articles on the French Wikipedia. Most of them were crap.
Either outdated, incomplete or with wrong information, all those
articles were poor; And we're talking about the top 40 french
companies, such as Orange, L'Oréal, Renault, BNP, etc.

The volunteer community isn't keen to improve and maintain those
articles. Companies are willing to do it. So we prefer to have poor
articles instead of good ones because there's a risk companies will
act wrongfully (I hope I'm not the only one to see the irony in this
situation where we prefer to ban editors because there's a risk
they'll do wrong. We should do that for all the projects, Close them
to editing because there's a risk people will do wrong.).

Adapting our projects to provide a framework where companies can
easily fit in and edit as a direct consequence, improve the quality of
their articles.

Companies that have the resources to commit to such things are,
usually, big and sometimes old company. Imagine that in a few year,
being involved with the Wikimedia projects is so natural for those
companies that they release their archives on the Wikimedia Projects.
What archives do you ask?

Orange, for example, is the former organization in charge of the
french telecom. They managed telephone for a very long time and have a
long history in RD. Their archives must be astounding. Containing
documents, pictures and videos about telecomunication that should be
awesome. That are part of our history.
Right now, those archives are dusting in some building. And in few
years they might disappear.
Our stance, being so opposed to companies making the first step
(editing) prevent companies to go the next step, release. And in fact,
indirectly, we're preventing knowledge to be freed. Awesome.

Lastly, those companies have huge RD budgets and employ thousands of
researchers and engineers. Imagine a company that employs 1 000
researchers. And imagine that company to do 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid editing v. paid advocacy (editing)

2014-01-10 Thread Erlend Bjørtvedt
A museum is a commercial entity. They live from ticket incomes from
customers. Universities live from tuition fees from students who freely
choose which university is most attractive to them.

The difference between these institutions editing, and a private railway
company when it comes to coi issues, is in my view  non-existent.

Erlend
Den 10. jan. 2014 14:14 skrev Anders Wennersten m...@anderswennersten.se
følgende:

 Thanks Christophe for your long ,but very good thoughts and experiences
 from paid editing from pro-profit organization.

 I fully  support your approach and hope we can put energy, instead of just
 being against, to elaborate on how to best handle the reality that
 pro-profit organization do paid editing. Should we ask them to be be open
 with their userids  relation to their companies/organizations for example,
 which I think is the (only) wish we should have (and paid editors from GLAM
 already do this) .


 Anders




 Christophe Henner skrev 2014-01-10 13:34:

 Hi everyone,

 I'll try to elaborate on this topic :)

 First of all, in 2011 in Haifa I did a first talk about companies and
 Wikipedia. I did that because I was making a study (emphasis on the
  as I'm not keen to say it's a study and more of a detailed
 observation) of the state of the articles of the top 40 french
 companies.

 During that talk I explained how I believe companies could help us
 improve our projects. I won't get too much into that as, since then,
 the debate evolved from companies editing Wikipedia to Paid editing
 is evil.

 This year at Wikimania I gave two talks about this very topic, one
 about how third party organizations can help us and the second on a
 framework to have editing.

 Of course, as usual, some people were against it.

 But how can we, as a community, be against paid editing on one hand
 when on the other hand we seek paid editing from GLAMs, researchers
 from state organizations, etc.

 The question whether we allow, or not, paid editing is non-existent.
 Paid editing is allowed, we already allowed it, we even support it;

 Now, the question about paid advocacy. Again, one of our core
 principle is NPOV. We don't want people to push their POV. Whether
 they're paid or not, is not relevant.

 So, to me, the paid foobar question is not the one in debate here.
 The one we're actually debating about is do we want for profit
 organization to edit Wikipedia.

 So yes, paid organizations have an interest in editing Wikipedia, but
 just as much as GLAMs have an interest in editing our projects. In
 fact, when Wikimedian meets GLAMs one of the key arguments is look at
 (pick past project that got great coverage such as the bundesarchives,
 British Museum, etc). We show them they have an interest in
 committing resources, both financial and human, to improve Wikimedia
 projects.

 So the they have an interest in editing isn't an argument in the
 end, as, of course a lot of editors have an interest in editing. And
 we're using it. When we think or work on how researchers valorize
 their edits in their cursus, those researchers have an interest in
 editing Wikipedia.

 So, really what is that people working for a company have that makes
 it so we have to ban them to edit? If we already have people paid to
 edit, if we have people with interests (henceforth some sort of COI),
 what do they have the others don't?

 Now, why do I strongly believe we should encourage companies to edit
 Wikipedia.

 First of all, as I said some years ago I evaluated the quality of
 company articles on the French Wikipedia. Most of them were crap.
 Either outdated, incomplete or with wrong information, all those
 articles were poor; And we're talking about the top 40 french
 companies, such as Orange, L'Oréal, Renault, BNP, etc.

 The volunteer community isn't keen to improve and maintain those
 articles. Companies are willing to do it. So we prefer to have poor
 articles instead of good ones because there's a risk companies will
 act wrongfully (I hope I'm not the only one to see the irony in this
 situation where we prefer to ban editors because there's a risk
 they'll do wrong. We should do that for all the projects, Close them
 to editing because there's a risk people will do wrong.).

 Adapting our projects to provide a framework where companies can
 easily fit in and edit as a direct consequence, improve the quality of
 their articles.

 Companies that have the resources to commit to such things are,
 usually, big and sometimes old company. Imagine that in a few year,
 being involved with the Wikimedia projects is so natural for those
 companies that they release their archives on the Wikimedia Projects.
 What archives do you ask?

 Orange, for example, is the former organization in charge of the
 french telecom. They managed telephone for a very long time and have a
 long history in RD. Their archives must be astounding. Containing
 documents, pictures and videos about telecomunication that should be
 awesome. 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid editing v. paid advocacy (editing)

2014-01-10 Thread Erlend Bjørtvedt
But even they sell souvenires and books..
Den 10. jan. 2014 16:05 skrev Katie Chan k...@ktchan.info følgende:

 On 10/01/2014 15:01, Erlend Bjørtvedt wrote:

 A museum is a commercial entity. They live from ticket incomes from
 customers.


 Not all museum charges people entry... ;)

 --
 Katie Chan
 Any views or opinions presented in this e-mail are solely those of the
 author and do not necessarily represent the view of any organisation the
 author is associated with or employed by.


 Experience is a good school but the fees are high.
  - Heinrich Heine


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid editing v. paid advocacy (editing)

2014-01-10 Thread Brad Jorsch (Anomie)
(Note these are my own personal views and in no way reflect any views of
the WMF or anyone else)

On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 7:34 AM, Christophe Henner 
christophe.hen...@gmail.com wrote:

 Now, the question about paid advocacy. Again, one of our core
 principle is NPOV. We don't want people to push their POV. Whether
 they're paid or not, is not relevant.

 So, to me, the paid foobar question is not the one in debate here.
 The one we're actually debating about is do we want for profit
 organization to edit Wikipedia.


I'd take this one step further: *paid* advocacy isn't necessarily the thing
we should be that much concerned about, as unpaid advocacy is just as bad
for the integrity of our content. There's no difference between someone who
inserts POV content because they're being paid to do so and someone who
inserts POV content because of their religious beliefs or personal
relationships or the like.

On the other hand, a paid advocate may perhaps be more concerning from a
community standpoint because it's likely that the paid advocate is going to
have more time and resources to devote to inserting POV content (and to
doing so in ways less likely to be caught) than most unpaid advocates.

Even more generally, even paid editing without advocacy may give a stigma
to the project even if the content really is fully NPOV. And, as mentioned
elsewhere, even paid editing without advocacy might discourage non-paid
contributions for various reasons. These reasons might be behind some of
the opposition to all paid editing.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid editing v. paid advocacy (editing)

2014-01-10 Thread Andrew Lih
Ting and Christophe,

Glad to hear we are moving forward on finding more sophisticated ways of
thinking about paid editing. At least for the English Wikipedians I've
talked to, many are pleasantly surprised that the European editions are
able to find a cooperative relationship with paid, corporate entities. The
Signpost article out today details some of that, but it merits a
comprehensive inventory and study to compare best practices. (Of course,
the argument can always be made about English Wikipedia as a weird special
case because of its profile and large community. I intentionally choose not
to use the horrible word exceptionalism!)

In last night's episode of Wikipedia Weekly podcast, we talked about this
as well [1]. In general, there are multiple parameters regarding the issue
of COI editing that goes beyond pay.

1. Pay
2. Neutrality
3. Advocacy
4. Transparency

Even then, the term advocacy is an imprecise and nearly useless term. Are
you advocating for a client? Are you advocating for the public good? Same
word, completely different motivations. So paid advocacy as a phrase,
uncontextualized, is not useful.

That's why I really like the GLAM use of the phrase of choosing to work
with like minded institutions. A national museum with editorial
independence is a good like-minded institution for the Wikimedia community.
A think tank that works to convince the public that global warming is a
myth… not so much.

If an institution is not like-minded, then the process of educating and
working with them with appropriate strict guidelines is a viable solution.
We see that this can work with the examples of Swedish and German
Wikipedias (and, it seems, others)

Back to the four factors above: You can have paid, neutral, transparent
editors that advocate for something good -- like better public access to
public records. GLAM Wikipedians-in-residence are a good example of this,
where they ensure that the interests of the public and Wikipedia's
principles come first. So their advocacy is for the principles of better
public knowledge, and a full time employee is working on it. This is a 4x
positive outcome, even though the words paid and advocacy are used.

On the other hand, in the case of Wiki-PR: it's editing for pay, without
transparency, without neutrality and advocating for a paying customer's
benefit. That's a quadruple no-no. This type of activity must be banned.
But if there is a middle way on this, in working with corporations in a
straightforward way, we would be silly not to investigate this, as certain
Wikipedia editions already show that it is possible.

I've highlighted in the past that we have systemic problems in Wikipedia
with unpaid editors resulting in persistent non-neutral content. The
university and college articles are the best (ie. worst) examples of this
-- these always read like brochures that brag about the top accomplishments
and rankings of a university because the number of alumni and students that
put in positive statements far outnumber anyone who could pull them back
into neutral territory. Unpaid, non-neutral, alma mater-advocacy is rampant
and persistent.

I hope we can start a longer dialogue about this at Wikimania. I'd be happy
to propose not just a session, but an entire track at Wikimania to address
this, including brainstorming/sharing sessions to get more views from other
language editions.

-Andrew

[1] Wikipedia Weekly episode 108 -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0698SX41VsE
Discussion of paid editing at 33 minutes into the podcast



On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 7:40 AM, Ting Chen wing.phil...@gmx.de wrote:

 Hello dear all,

 I would like to be more cautious about the difference between the good
 paid editing and the bad paid advocacy.

 There are two reasons why I don't want to separate in this way.

 First of there is no clear boundary between the good and bad like
 black and white. There is a gradient of grey between the two. And that
 gradient is not a narrow one but a very broad one. And it depends from the
 perspective of the people who look upon the matter. For one maybe a
 behavior is the dark white but for the other one it may be a bright black.

 Second I want to especially respond to the idea that Erik brought up: an
 organization that hire people to write qualified articles. I wrote in the
 other mail that I believe paid editing changes the collaboratory nature of
 our projects but did not really elaborate on why I think so. I want to do
 this now. Let me construct an example to emphasize why I think so. I will
 now take an example which leaves almost no room for interpretation about
 black and white: the theoretical physics. Let's say there is a charitable
 non-profit organization that hires reknowned theoretical physicists to
 write Wikipedia articles. So they pay 10.000 Dollar to Bryce DeWitt (I
 know, he is dead, I just don't want to name any living people) to write
 about field theory, or John Wheeler to write about general relativity, and
 so on and so 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid editing v. paid advocacy (editing)

2014-01-10 Thread Peter Gervai
On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 1:40 PM, Ting Chen wing.phil...@gmx.de wrote:
 Wikipedia articles. So they pay 10.000 Dollar to Bryce DeWitt (I know, he is
 dead, I just don't want to name any living people) to write about field
 theory, or John Wheeler to write about general relativity, and so on and so
 on. I wonder if this happens, would there still be anyone who dares to
 change or write articles on topics about theoretical physics? If this

I understand your intentions but the example was faulty, as you mix up
paid editing with authority or celebrity status.

If Albert Einstein wrote an article about relativity (not paid by
anyone but because he really likes to share his knowledge) nobody
really would dare to chime in.

However John Doe, Jr., however he's paid isn't special and people will
trim his advocacy way more than a normal one.

In fact authority is not equal to article protection and humble
silence: we had pleny of cases where notable academics went away in
flaming anger because a nobody questioned their authority and
requested, for example, external sources or proofs.

I believe paid advocacy vs. paid article writing destinction is
valid and important; as well as the general article writing vs.
advocacy distinction, which may not be black and white but it's
definitely a separate hue or brightness. :-)

Peter

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid editing v. paid advocacy (editing)

2014-01-10 Thread Christophe Henner
A track about that \o/

It took me years to have 2 sessions and they were the only 2 tackling
that issue last year :)
--
Christophe


On 10 January 2014 16:17, Andrew Lih andrew@gmail.com wrote:
 Ting and Christophe,

 Glad to hear we are moving forward on finding more sophisticated ways of
 thinking about paid editing. At least for the English Wikipedians I've
 talked to, many are pleasantly surprised that the European editions are
 able to find a cooperative relationship with paid, corporate entities. The
 Signpost article out today details some of that, but it merits a
 comprehensive inventory and study to compare best practices. (Of course,
 the argument can always be made about English Wikipedia as a weird special
 case because of its profile and large community. I intentionally choose not
 to use the horrible word exceptionalism!)

 In last night's episode of Wikipedia Weekly podcast, we talked about this
 as well [1]. In general, there are multiple parameters regarding the issue
 of COI editing that goes beyond pay.

 1. Pay
 2. Neutrality
 3. Advocacy
 4. Transparency

 Even then, the term advocacy is an imprecise and nearly useless term. Are
 you advocating for a client? Are you advocating for the public good? Same
 word, completely different motivations. So paid advocacy as a phrase,
 uncontextualized, is not useful.

 That's why I really like the GLAM use of the phrase of choosing to work
 with like minded institutions. A national museum with editorial
 independence is a good like-minded institution for the Wikimedia community.
 A think tank that works to convince the public that global warming is a
 myth… not so much.

 If an institution is not like-minded, then the process of educating and
 working with them with appropriate strict guidelines is a viable solution.
 We see that this can work with the examples of Swedish and German
 Wikipedias (and, it seems, others)

 Back to the four factors above: You can have paid, neutral, transparent
 editors that advocate for something good -- like better public access to
 public records. GLAM Wikipedians-in-residence are a good example of this,
 where they ensure that the interests of the public and Wikipedia's
 principles come first. So their advocacy is for the principles of better
 public knowledge, and a full time employee is working on it. This is a 4x
 positive outcome, even though the words paid and advocacy are used.

 On the other hand, in the case of Wiki-PR: it's editing for pay, without
 transparency, without neutrality and advocating for a paying customer's
 benefit. That's a quadruple no-no. This type of activity must be banned.
 But if there is a middle way on this, in working with corporations in a
 straightforward way, we would be silly not to investigate this, as certain
 Wikipedia editions already show that it is possible.

 I've highlighted in the past that we have systemic problems in Wikipedia
 with unpaid editors resulting in persistent non-neutral content. The
 university and college articles are the best (ie. worst) examples of this
 -- these always read like brochures that brag about the top accomplishments
 and rankings of a university because the number of alumni and students that
 put in positive statements far outnumber anyone who could pull them back
 into neutral territory. Unpaid, non-neutral, alma mater-advocacy is rampant
 and persistent.

 I hope we can start a longer dialogue about this at Wikimania. I'd be happy
 to propose not just a session, but an entire track at Wikimania to address
 this, including brainstorming/sharing sessions to get more views from other
 language editions.

 -Andrew

 [1] Wikipedia Weekly episode 108 -
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0698SX41VsE
 Discussion of paid editing at 33 minutes into the podcast



 On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 7:40 AM, Ting Chen wing.phil...@gmx.de wrote:

 Hello dear all,

 I would like to be more cautious about the difference between the good
 paid editing and the bad paid advocacy.

 There are two reasons why I don't want to separate in this way.

 First of there is no clear boundary between the good and bad like
 black and white. There is a gradient of grey between the two. And that
 gradient is not a narrow one but a very broad one. And it depends from the
 perspective of the people who look upon the matter. For one maybe a
 behavior is the dark white but for the other one it may be a bright black.

 Second I want to especially respond to the idea that Erik brought up: an
 organization that hire people to write qualified articles. I wrote in the
 other mail that I believe paid editing changes the collaboratory nature of
 our projects but did not really elaborate on why I think so. I want to do
 this now. Let me construct an example to emphasize why I think so. I will
 now take an example which leaves almost no room for interpretation about
 black and white: the theoretical physics. Let's say there is a charitable
 non-profit organization that hires reknowned 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid editing v. paid advocacy (editing)

2014-01-10 Thread Lionel Allorge
Hi,

 I agree it's an important distinction. I personally think it could be
 worthwhile to think about a separate non-profit organization which
 receives payments and manages contracts to systematically expand
 Wikipedia coverage, with payment entirely or largely decoupled from
 specific articles (at most coupled to specific domains) and the
 organization's policies being developed transparently in partnership
 with the community. I suspect such an org could receive significant
 grants and public support in its own right.
...
 I'd love to see more experiments that are conducted in full awareness
 of the ethical issues involved, both with funding models for free
 content, and with other incentive structures. WikiMoney was actually
 quite popular for a short while, considering how much of a pain it was
 to actually administer!

I agree with you that the Wikimedia Foundation is not in the best position to 
pay people to produce Free content. But there are many fields where it would 
useful to pay people to produce Free (as in freedom) content.

For exemple, we could have a Free news website with paid journalists that 
could get to places forbiden to amateurs like in press conferences or get 
interviews with celebrities.

We could have a Free photography agency that could send professionals to take 
pictures and videos all over the world, especially where amateurs won't be 
allowed like in war zones.

We could have a publishing company that would pay specialists to write Free 
books about subjects where we lack tertiary sources. It would be a great way 
not to antagonize renowned scientists who might get bitten if they edit 
Wikipedia directly.

Those Free texts, pictures, videos, etc. could then be used by the Wikimedia 
projects by amateurs.

Best regards.

-- 
Lionel Allorge
April : http://www.april.org
Lune Rouge : http://www.lunerouge.org
Wikimedia France : http://wikimedia.fr


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid editing v. paid advocacy (editing)

2014-01-10 Thread Arne Klempert
On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 4:13 PM, Brad Jorsch (Anomie)
bjor...@wikimedia.org wrote:
 On the other hand, a paid advocate may perhaps be more concerning from a
 community standpoint because it's likely that the paid advocate is going to
 have more time and resources to devote to inserting POV content (and to
 doing so in ways less likely to be caught) than most unpaid advocates.

I've heard that before from Wikipedians. However, it does not match
with what communication professionals keep telling me. Even larger
companies with solid communication departments are usually not in a
place to spend enough ressources to correct their articles beyond
basic facts. Many of them tried (directly and/or through talk pages)
but gave up at some point. For companies engaging with Wikipedia can
be terribly time-consuming - especially if they want to do it right.

Cheers,
Arne
-- 
Arne Klempert, http://www.klempert.de/
This gmail address is for mailing lists only. Please
use surname@gmail.com for personal emails.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid editing v. paid advocacy (editing)

2014-01-10 Thread Federico Leva (Nemo)

Arne Klempert, 10/01/2014 17:51:

I've heard that before from Wikipedians. However, it does not match
with what communication professionals keep telling me. Even larger
companies with solid communication departments are usually not in a
place to spend enough ressources to correct their articles beyond
basic facts. [...]


That only means that their return on investment is too little for them, 
not that they wouldn't have enough resources. Usually, that's because 
what they're trying to do is impossible, so they keep hitting a wall. 
Wiki-PR's very reasonable prices show that the job can be very 
cost-effective and not so heavy, if one knows what can survive in the 
system.
In my experience, every time you talk with a company's communication 
person you have to spend hours convincing them that every single thing 
they thought or wanted to do on Wikipedia is totally impossible, then 
after a complete mind-reset you can teach them the simple things they 
can do successfully. Things could be much smoother, but our approaches 
are too inefficient (or our resources insufficient by several orders of 
magnitudes with current approaches) for the necessary mass-education of 
communication professionals to happen and enable them to productive 
interaction.


Nemo

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid editing v. paid advocacy (editing)

2014-01-10 Thread Anders Wennersten


Martijn Hoekstra skrev 2014-01-10 20:12:


I very much agree with this. Currently we just don't have the manpower to
explain to 'the corporate world'


Who do you refer to when you talk of we. I it a group of people or a 
language community. You are certainly not laking for all communities, as 
the community I work recognize the issues you take up, but we feel we 
can handle it OK (but still have severe problem with the hard POVer re 
racism etc)


Anders




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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid editing v. paid advocacy (editing)

2014-01-10 Thread Michel Vuijlsteke
On 10 January 2014 20:12, Martijn Hoekstra martijnhoeks...@gmail.comwrote:

 I very much agree with this. Currently we just don't have the manpower to
 explain to 'the corporate world' in an understanding and clear fashion that
 what they are trying to do is *all wrong*, and what it is they *can*
 actually do. As long as corporate spam outnumbers well-meaning Wikipedians
 who are willing to invest time and effort in explaining by roughly a factor
 1 : 10, there is little we can do.


Or, as is the case on the Dutch-language Wikipedia; as long as hardcore
anti-anything-to-do-with-corporate-whatever Wikipedians can outgun
well-meaning Wikipedians who are willing to invest time and effort in
creating and maintaining content about corporate entities in the equivalent
of AfD, there is little we can do.

Michel
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid editing v. paid advocacy (editing)

2014-01-10 Thread Ting Chen

Hello Peter,

I see the following two possibilities:

Either the paid editing brings a higher quality and thus by that quality 
imposes itself as an authority and thus discourage further unqualified 
editing


Or the paid editing does not bring a higher quality, then an unpaid 
volunteer editor will with right feel fooled and ask: Why does that 
person get paid and I not, it is obvious that my work is less valued and 
thus I will quit.


In both cases I come back to my conclusion, and that is paid editing 
changes the collaboratory nature of our projects.


Greetings
Ting


Am 10.01.2014 16:23, schrieb Peter Gervai:

On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 1:40 PM, Ting Chen wing.phil...@gmx.de wrote:

Wikipedia articles. So they pay 10.000 Dollar to Bryce DeWitt (I know, he is
dead, I just don't want to name any living people) to write about field
theory, or John Wheeler to write about general relativity, and so on and so
on. I wonder if this happens, would there still be anyone who dares to
change or write articles on topics about theoretical physics? If this

I understand your intentions but the example was faulty, as you mix up
paid editing with authority or celebrity status.

If Albert Einstein wrote an article about relativity (not paid by
anyone but because he really likes to share his knowledge) nobody
really would dare to chime in.

However John Doe, Jr., however he's paid isn't special and people will
trim his advocacy way more than a normal one.

In fact authority is not equal to article protection and humble
silence: we had pleny of cases where notable academics went away in
flaming anger because a nobody questioned their authority and
requested, for example, external sources or proofs.

I believe paid advocacy vs. paid article writing destinction is
valid and important; as well as the general article writing vs.
advocacy distinction, which may not be black and white but it's
definitely a separate hue or brightness. :-)

Peter

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid editing v. paid advocacy (editing)

2014-01-10 Thread Ting Chen

Hello Peter,

I see the following two possibilities:

Either the paid editing brings a higher quality and thus by that quality 
imposes itself as an authority and thus discourage further unqualified 
editing


Or the paid editing does not bring a higher quality, then an unpaid 
volunteer editor will with right feel fooled and ask: Why does that 
person get paid and I not, it is obvious that my work is less valued and 
thus I will quit.


In both cases I come back to my conclusion, and that is paid editing 
changes the collaboratory nature of our projects.


Greetings
Ting

Am 10.01.2014 16:23, schrieb Peter Gervai:

On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 1:40 PM, Ting Chen wing.phil...@gmx.de wrote:

Wikipedia articles. So they pay 10.000 Dollar to Bryce DeWitt (I know, he is
dead, I just don't want to name any living people) to write about field
theory, or John Wheeler to write about general relativity, and so on and so
on. I wonder if this happens, would there still be anyone who dares to
change or write articles on topics about theoretical physics? If this

I understand your intentions but the example was faulty, as you mix up
paid editing with authority or celebrity status.

If Albert Einstein wrote an article about relativity (not paid by
anyone but because he really likes to share his knowledge) nobody
really would dare to chime in.

However John Doe, Jr., however he's paid isn't special and people will
trim his advocacy way more than a normal one.

In fact authority is not equal to article protection and humble
silence: we had pleny of cases where notable academics went away in
flaming anger because a nobody questioned their authority and
requested, for example, external sources or proofs.

I believe paid advocacy vs. paid article writing destinction is
valid and important; as well as the general article writing vs.
advocacy distinction, which may not be black and white but it's
definitely a separate hue or brightness. :-)

Peter

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid editing v. paid advocacy (editing)

2014-01-10 Thread Andreas Kolbe
Christophe's comment about Wikipedia's company articles not being very
complete reminded me of a fun infographic:

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5474/11871822903_714f36a83e_h.jpg

There is a strange, systemic hostility towards business at work in the
English Wikipedia. Combined with a love for pop trivia ...


On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 12:34 PM, Christophe Henner 
christophe.hen...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hi everyone,

 I'll try to elaborate on this topic :)

 First of all, in 2011 in Haifa I did a first talk about companies and
 Wikipedia. I did that because I was making a study (emphasis on the
  as I'm not keen to say it's a study and more of a detailed
 observation) of the state of the articles of the top 40 french
 companies.

 During that talk I explained how I believe companies could help us
 improve our projects. I won't get too much into that as, since then,
 the debate evolved from companies editing Wikipedia to Paid editing
 is evil.

 This year at Wikimania I gave two talks about this very topic, one
 about how third party organizations can help us and the second on a
 framework to have editing.

 Of course, as usual, some people were against it.

 But how can we, as a community, be against paid editing on one hand
 when on the other hand we seek paid editing from GLAMs, researchers
 from state organizations, etc.

 The question whether we allow, or not, paid editing is non-existent.
 Paid editing is allowed, we already allowed it, we even support it;

 Now, the question about paid advocacy. Again, one of our core
 principle is NPOV. We don't want people to push their POV. Whether
 they're paid or not, is not relevant.

 So, to me, the paid foobar question is not the one in debate here.
 The one we're actually debating about is do we want for profit
 organization to edit Wikipedia.

 So yes, paid organizations have an interest in editing Wikipedia, but
 just as much as GLAMs have an interest in editing our projects. In
 fact, when Wikimedian meets GLAMs one of the key arguments is look at
 (pick past project that got great coverage such as the bundesarchives,
 British Museum, etc). We show them they have an interest in
 committing resources, both financial and human, to improve Wikimedia
 projects.

 So the they have an interest in editing isn't an argument in the
 end, as, of course a lot of editors have an interest in editing. And
 we're using it. When we think or work on how researchers valorize
 their edits in their cursus, those researchers have an interest in
 editing Wikipedia.

 So, really what is that people working for a company have that makes
 it so we have to ban them to edit? If we already have people paid to
 edit, if we have people with interests (henceforth some sort of COI),
 what do they have the others don't?

 Now, why do I strongly believe we should encourage companies to edit
 Wikipedia.

 First of all, as I said some years ago I evaluated the quality of
 company articles on the French Wikipedia. Most of them were crap.
 Either outdated, incomplete or with wrong information, all those
 articles were poor; And we're talking about the top 40 french
 companies, such as Orange, L'Oréal, Renault, BNP, etc.

 The volunteer community isn't keen to improve and maintain those
 articles. Companies are willing to do it. So we prefer to have poor
 articles instead of good ones because there's a risk companies will
 act wrongfully (I hope I'm not the only one to see the irony in this
 situation where we prefer to ban editors because there's a risk
 they'll do wrong. We should do that for all the projects, Close them
 to editing because there's a risk people will do wrong.).

 Adapting our projects to provide a framework where companies can
 easily fit in and edit as a direct consequence, improve the quality of
 their articles.

 Companies that have the resources to commit to such things are,
 usually, big and sometimes old company. Imagine that in a few year,
 being involved with the Wikimedia projects is so natural for those
 companies that they release their archives on the Wikimedia Projects.
 What archives do you ask?

 Orange, for example, is the former organization in charge of the
 french telecom. They managed telephone for a very long time and have a
 long history in RD. Their archives must be astounding. Containing
 documents, pictures and videos about telecomunication that should be
 awesome. That are part of our history.
 Right now, those archives are dusting in some building. And in few
 years they might disappear.
 Our stance, being so opposed to companies making the first step
 (editing) prevent companies to go the next step, release. And in fact,
 indirectly, we're preventing knowledge to be freed. Awesome.

 Lastly, those companies have huge RD budgets and employ thousands of
 researchers and engineers. Imagine a company that employs 1 000
 researchers. And imagine that company to do 2 things:
 1/ that a company, as part of its CSR politic, says they commit 1 day
 per year 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid editing v. paid advocacy (editing)

2014-01-10 Thread Andreas Kolbe
Quite. Museums' self-interest in employing a Wikipedian-in-Residence is
often quite evident from the way the position is described (raise our
profile etc.)

And what about, say, the Henry Ford Museum? Or the Volkswagen museum? Is
that not knowledge? Is it evil, because it's part of a business?

Which reminds me – I often think it odd that Wikimedia will fund a
Wikipedian-in-Residence for some regional tourist attraction (think the
Welsh Coastal Path project, or the York Museum), resulting in the creation
of truly niche content that seems designed to benefit local tourism more
than mass education, while baulking at the idea of paying legal, scientific
or medical experts to look over the most viewed, most critical legal,
scientific or medical articles, i.e. articles that are accessed by
thousands of people each day. I'd rather see the money go to a trained
expert working on those articles, much along the lines Ting (somewhat
reluctantly) considered above, even it this were to result – shock! horror!
– in a stable, authoritative Wikipedia article.

At any rate, I am sure donors would rather see their money go towards
improving the quality of key encyclopedic topics than see them spent on
funding microcoverage of some tourist region.




On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 3:01 PM, Erlend Bjørtvedt erl...@wikimedia.nowrote:

 A museum is a commercial entity. They live from ticket incomes from
 customers. Universities live from tuition fees from students who freely
 choose which university is most attractive to them.

 The difference between these institutions editing, and a private railway
 company when it comes to coi issues, is in my view  non-existent.

 Erlend
 Den 10. jan. 2014 14:14 skrev Anders Wennersten 
 m...@anderswennersten.se
 følgende:

  Thanks Christophe for your long ,but very good thoughts and experiences
  from paid editing from pro-profit organization.
 
  I fully  support your approach and hope we can put energy, instead of
 just
  being against, to elaborate on how to best handle the reality that
  pro-profit organization do paid editing. Should we ask them to be be open
  with their userids  relation to their companies/organizations for
 example,
  which I think is the (only) wish we should have (and paid editors from
 GLAM
  already do this) .
 
 
  Anders
 
 
 
 
  Christophe Henner skrev 2014-01-10 13:34:
 
  Hi everyone,
 
  I'll try to elaborate on this topic :)
 
  First of all, in 2011 in Haifa I did a first talk about companies and
  Wikipedia. I did that because I was making a study (emphasis on the
   as I'm not keen to say it's a study and more of a detailed
  observation) of the state of the articles of the top 40 french
  companies.
 
  During that talk I explained how I believe companies could help us
  improve our projects. I won't get too much into that as, since then,
  the debate evolved from companies editing Wikipedia to Paid editing
  is evil.
 
  This year at Wikimania I gave two talks about this very topic, one
  about how third party organizations can help us and the second on a
  framework to have editing.
 
  Of course, as usual, some people were against it.
 
  But how can we, as a community, be against paid editing on one hand
  when on the other hand we seek paid editing from GLAMs, researchers
  from state organizations, etc.
 
  The question whether we allow, or not, paid editing is non-existent.
  Paid editing is allowed, we already allowed it, we even support it;
 
  Now, the question about paid advocacy. Again, one of our core
  principle is NPOV. We don't want people to push their POV. Whether
  they're paid or not, is not relevant.
 
  So, to me, the paid foobar question is not the one in debate here.
  The one we're actually debating about is do we want for profit
  organization to edit Wikipedia.
 
  So yes, paid organizations have an interest in editing Wikipedia, but
  just as much as GLAMs have an interest in editing our projects. In
  fact, when Wikimedian meets GLAMs one of the key arguments is look at
  (pick past project that got great coverage such as the bundesarchives,
  British Museum, etc). We show them they have an interest in
  committing resources, both financial and human, to improve Wikimedia
  projects.
 
  So the they have an interest in editing isn't an argument in the
  end, as, of course a lot of editors have an interest in editing. And
  we're using it. When we think or work on how researchers valorize
  their edits in their cursus, those researchers have an interest in
  editing Wikipedia.
 
  So, really what is that people working for a company have that makes
  it so we have to ban them to edit? If we already have people paid to
  edit, if we have people with interests (henceforth some sort of COI),
  what do they have the others don't?
 
  Now, why do I strongly believe we should encourage companies to edit
  Wikipedia.
 
  First of all, as I said some years ago I evaluated the quality of
  company articles on the French Wikipedia. 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid editing v. paid advocacy (editing)

2014-01-10 Thread Andreas Kolbe
On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 3:13 PM, Brad Jorsch (Anomie) bjor...@wikimedia.org
 wrote:

 (Note these are my own personal views and in no way reflect any views of
 the WMF or anyone else)

 On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 7:34 AM, Christophe Henner 
 christophe.hen...@gmail.com wrote:

  Now, the question about paid advocacy. Again, one of our core
  principle is NPOV. We don't want people to push their POV. Whether
  they're paid or not, is not relevant.
 
  So, to me, the paid foobar question is not the one in debate here.
  The one we're actually debating about is do we want for profit
  organization to edit Wikipedia.
 

 I'd take this one step further: *paid* advocacy isn't necessarily the thing
 we should be that much concerned about, as unpaid advocacy is just as bad
 for the integrity of our content. There's no difference between someone who
 inserts POV content because they're being paid to do so and someone who
 inserts POV content because of their religious beliefs or personal
 relationships or the like.



That's the key point right here. The entire focus on preventing paid
advocacy editing is like fitting a 12-inch steel door at the front of the
house, while leaving open doors and windows for social entrepreneurs of all
sorts on all the other sides of the building.





 On the other hand, a paid advocate may perhaps be more concerning from a
 community standpoint because it's likely that the paid advocate is going to
 have more time and resources to devote to inserting POV content (and to
 doing so in ways less likely to be caught) than most unpaid advocates.

 Even more generally, even paid editing without advocacy may give a stigma
 to the project even if the content really is fully NPOV. And, as mentioned
 elsewhere, even paid editing without advocacy might discourage non-paid
 contributions for various reasons. These reasons might be behind some of
 the opposition to all paid editing.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid editing v. paid advocacy (editing)

2014-01-10 Thread Andreas Kolbe
On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 3:17 PM, Andrew Lih andrew@gmail.com wrote:

 Ting and Christophe,

 Glad to hear we are moving forward on finding more sophisticated ways of
 thinking about paid editing. At least for the English Wikipedians I've
 talked to, many are pleasantly surprised that the European editions are
 able to find a cooperative relationship with paid, corporate entities. The
 Signpost article out today details some of that, but it merits a
 comprehensive inventory and study to compare best practices. (Of course,
 the argument can always be made about English Wikipedia as a weird special
 case because of its profile and large community. I intentionally choose not
 to use the horrible word exceptionalism!)




I suspect the difference is that the English Wikipedia listened for so long
to Jimmy Wales, whose views on paid editing are well known, while the other
projects just did what they thought made sense.

No other Wikipedia I know has the same witch hunt mentality against
business as the English Wikipedia.

While the German Wikipedia verifies company accounts, to prevent
impersonation, the English Wikipedia bans them on sight and asks the
editors concerned to register alternative user names that bear no
resemblance to the company name. Tens of thousands of company accounts have
been banned that way, and asked to come back with an innocuous name.

This way, transparency is lost, and it *looks* as though it is all done by
volunteers, but the reality is the same as before. It is window dressing.

And in the English Wikipedia, as in any other, practically any company
article one looks into turns out on closer inspection to have been edited
by employees of that company.

http://wikipediocracy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23t=262

Other Wikipedias accept this, and are upfront about it. The English
Wikipedia is in a permanent hissy fit about it.



In last night's episode of Wikipedia Weekly podcast, we talked about this
 as well [1]. In general, there are multiple parameters regarding the issue
 of COI editing that goes beyond pay.

 1. Pay
 2. Neutrality
 3. Advocacy
 4. Transparency

 Even then, the term advocacy is an imprecise and nearly useless term. Are
 you advocating for a client? Are you advocating for the public good? Same
 word, completely different motivations. So paid advocacy as a phrase,
 uncontextualized, is not useful.

 That's why I really like the GLAM use of the phrase of choosing to work
 with like minded institutions. A national museum with editorial
 independence is a good like-minded institution for the Wikimedia community.
 A think tank that works to convince the public that global warming is a
 myth… not so much.

 If an institution is not like-minded, then the process of educating and
 working with them with appropriate strict guidelines is a viable solution.
 We see that this can work with the examples of Swedish and German
 Wikipedias (and, it seems, others)

 Back to the four factors above: You can have paid, neutral, transparent
 editors that advocate for something good -- like better public access to
 public records. GLAM Wikipedians-in-residence are a good example of this,
 where they ensure that the interests of the public and Wikipedia's
 principles come first. So their advocacy is for the principles of better
 public knowledge, and a full time employee is working on it. This is a 4x
 positive outcome, even though the words paid and advocacy are used.

 On the other hand, in the case of Wiki-PR: it's editing for pay, without
 transparency, without neutrality and advocating for a paying customer's
 benefit. That's a quadruple no-no. This type of activity must be banned.
 But if there is a middle way on this, in working with corporations in a
 straightforward way, we would be silly not to investigate this, as certain
 Wikipedia editions already show that it is possible.

 I've highlighted in the past that we have systemic problems in Wikipedia
 with unpaid editors resulting in persistent non-neutral content. The
 university and college articles are the best (ie. worst) examples of this
 -- these always read like brochures that brag about the top accomplishments
 and rankings of a university because the number of alumni and students that
 put in positive statements far outnumber anyone who could pull them back
 into neutral territory. Unpaid, non-neutral, alma mater-advocacy is rampant
 and persistent.

 I hope we can start a longer dialogue about this at Wikimania. I'd be happy
 to propose not just a session, but an entire track at Wikimania to address
 this, including brainstorming/sharing sessions to get more views from other
 language editions.

 -Andrew

 [1] Wikipedia Weekly episode 108 -
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0698SX41VsE
 Discussion of paid editing at 33 minutes into the podcast



 On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 7:40 AM, Ting Chen wing.phil...@gmx.de wrote:

  Hello dear all,
 
  I would like to be more cautious about the difference between the good
  paid 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid editing v. paid advocacy (editing)

2014-01-10 Thread geni
On 10 January 2014 21:06, Andreas Kolbe jayen...@gmail.com wrote:

 Quite. Museums' self-interest in employing a Wikipedian-in-Residence is
 often quite evident from the way the position is described (raise our
 profile etc.)

 And what about, say, the Henry Ford Museum? Or the Volkswagen museum? Is
 that not knowledge? Is it evil, because it's part of a business?


The term you are looking for is propaganda. Or PR if you like being invited
to a certain class of party.



 Which reminds me – I often think it odd that Wikimedia will fund a
 Wikipedian-in-Residence for some regional tourist attraction (think the
 Welsh Coastal Path project, or the York Museum),


You've never actually been to the York Museum have you? Its a typical
municipal museum. IE a place to dump all the historical stuff that you can
just leave sitting around in the street. Its collection is better than some
but only due to its age.

The tourist targeting museum in the area would be the Jorvik Viking Centre.

I'd assume the largest tourist draw is actually the National Railway Museum
(certainly it has the best class of cameras) but that is a national
collection rather than regional.




-- 
geni
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid editing v. paid advocacy (editing)

2014-01-09 Thread Dariusz Jemielniak
I totally agree with MZMcBride and Erik. It also depends and what the money
go for. If somebody is paid to bend the rules or use their privileged role,
it is an obvious problem. If somebody is paid a compensation for the costs
incurred in collecting materials (as sometimes is the case with scanners,
photos, etc.), it obviously isn't. And the area between is grey and
undefined.

As you possibly know, I believe that outright forbidding all paid editing
results in a situation when people still do it, but in secrecy. This is not
good for us, as it increases the amount of work needed to eradicate such
edits.

I think that we should allow paid edits under certain conditions (although
obviously not allow paid advocacy), when all encyclopedic standards are
fulfilled, but require full transparency and disclosure, to allow better
tracking and evaluation of such edits. I also believe that transparency and
disclosure of even potential COI is crucial (and unfortunately impossible
under current rules).

best,

dariusz pundit


On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 8:57 AM, Erik Moeller e...@wikimedia.org wrote:

 On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 6:22 PM, MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com wrote:

 (Responding just on the general issue, not on the specific case.)

  Paid editing is not the same as paid advocacy (editing). This is a very
  important point.

 I agree it's an important distinction. I personally think it could be
 worthwhile to think about a separate non-profit organization which
 receives payments and manages contracts to systematically expand
 Wikipedia coverage, with payment entirely or largely decoupled from
 specific articles (at most coupled to specific domains) and the
 organization's policies being developed transparently in partnership
 with the community. I suspect such an org could receive significant
 grants and public support in its own right.

 Supporting free content isn't evil - there's stuff like

 http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1699256938/the-vanamo-online-game-museum
 which is totally awesome. It's COI and disclosure issues that raise
 red flags, and more significant violations of policies that sometimes
 go along with that.

 It's been suggested many times through the years that WMF should
 directly pay editors in some way. I don't think that's a good idea,
 though I would like to see more grants in support of expenses related
 to article writing (there are quite a few programs around that
 already, many of them chapter-run).

 *dims lights, stirs logs in fireplace*

 Back in the early years, I had a little statement on my userpage
 encouraging people to donate money to me if they liked my work and
 wanted me to do more on Wikipedia. (Nobody took me up on it, of
 course. Cheap bastards.) This was at a time when a lot of us online
 community nerds were thinking about donation-based funding models for
 communities. PayPal was just becoming a really big deal back then,
 because it suddenly made these early community funding experiments
 possible. Blender, Penny Arcade, Kuro5hin and others were among the
 true pioneers of what's now called crowdfunding.

 Axel Boldt deserves credit for this experiment:
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiMoney . I still have a
 WikiMoney bank balance of ψ18. Maybe I can convert it to a
 cryptocurrency one day. :)

 I'd love to see more experiments that are conducted in full awareness
 of the ethical issues involved, both with funding models for free
 content, and with other incentive structures. WikiMoney was actually
 quite popular for a short while, considering how much of a pain it was
 to actually administer!

 Erik
 --
 Erik Möller
 VP of Engineering and Product Development, Wikimedia Foundation

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-- 

__
dr hab. Dariusz Jemielniak
profesor zarządzania
kierownik katedry Zarządzania Międzynarodowego
i centrum badawczego CROW
Akademia Leona Koźmińskiego
http://www.crow.alk.edu.pl
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid editing v. paid advocacy (editing)

2014-01-09 Thread Tomasz Ganicz
2014/1/9 Dariusz Jemielniak dar...@alk.edu.pl:
 I totally agree with MZMcBride and Erik. It also depends and what the money
 go for. If somebody is paid to bend the rules or use their privileged role,
 it is an obvious problem. If somebody is paid a compensation for the costs
 incurred in collecting materials (as sometimes is the case with scanners,
 photos, etc.), it obviously isn't. And the area between is grey and
 undefined.

 As you possibly know, I believe that outright forbidding all paid editing
 results in a situation when people still do it, but in secrecy. This is not
 good for us, as it increases the amount of work needed to eradicate such
 edits.

 I think that we should allow paid edits under certain conditions (although
 obviously not allow paid advocacy), when all encyclopedic standards are
 fulfilled, but require full transparency and disclosure, to allow better
 tracking and evaluation of such edits. I also believe that transparency and
 disclosure of even potential COI is crucial (and unfortunately impossible
 under current rules).


Yes, but the question is how to enable such a system. If the rules for
paid editors were to be very strict - many paid editors would have
still decide to do it in secrecy anyway, as it would have been simply
easier for them. It might be like with infamous registered lobbyst
system in Polish Parliament. Since  registered lobbyst system was
enabled 12 years ago in Polish Parliament only 6 people decided to
register, while all other lobbysts still act in secrecy :-)

System in German Wikipedia registers institutional/corporal editors -
who for sure join the Wikipedia in order to support interest of their
institutions/corporations. One can still do it following the Wikipedia
rules - for example remove unsourced bias, keep pages updated, fix
basic facts, such as the name of CEO etc.  And - in the same time one
can still have accounts for doing evil things - sockpuppeting in
disucssions and votes, forcing obvious bias etc...






-- 
Tomek Polimerek Ganicz
http://pl.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Polimerek
http://www.ganicz.pl/poli/
http://www.cbmm.lodz.pl/work.php?id=29title=tomasz-ganicz

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid editing v. paid advocacy (editing)

2014-01-09 Thread Russavia
Tomasz,

As has been said elsewhere, No registration required, we respect your
privacy, and no paid editing are fundamentally incompatible.

The only way that it would be possible for a system as you describe to
exist, the following would need to be true :

1) No more IP editing -- most COI editing exists using IPs
2) No more anonymous editing -- having real names being used for account
names would indeed go towards putting a halt to undeclared editing
3) Compulsory to declare any COI -- this is currently the case on
some projects, but the conditions are such that this is not always followed

The very business model that Wikipedia follows makes it impossible
to enable any system where COI editing can either be eliminated or can
exist without issue. Until that model changes, this will always be an issue.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid editing v. paid advocacy (editing)

2014-01-09 Thread Frank Schulenburg
Thank you for highlighting something I should have clarified better in my post, 
MZMcBride. That sentence should have read paid advocacy editing in line with 
Sue's blog post that you referenced. 

We continue to support the important work Sarah and others have done in the 
GLAM sector through projects like Wikipedians in Residence. 

Frank 


On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 6:22 PM, MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com wrote:
Frank Schulenburg wrote:
[...] it is widely known that paid editing is frowned upon by many in the
editing community and by the Wikimedia Foundation.

No.

Paid editing is not the same as paid advocacy (editing). This is a very
important point.

Suggested reading:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Dominic/FAQ
https://blog.wikimedia.org/?p=25830

N.B. an example of paid editing that few would likely have an issue with
in the first link and Sue's careful and correct wording in the second link.

If we're going to have such a fine distinction, we should probably better
document it to avoid misunderstandings.

MZMcBride


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid editing v. paid advocacy (editing)

2014-01-09 Thread Dariusz Jemielniak
On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 10:28 AM, Tomasz Ganicz polime...@gmail.com wrote:

 Yes, but the question is how to enable such a system. If the rules for
  paid editors were to be very strict - many paid editors would have
 still decide to do it in secrecy anyway,


oh, but there will ALWAYS be those lurking in the shadows. However,
currently we frown upon edits which are according to the rules just as much
as upon those which cross the line. I think it would be good to make and
explicit, ostensive bright line, like Jimbo suggested - I just think the
line should be elsewhere.

Paid editing, when done according to the rules, and when subjected to
transparent community control, is definitely better than a system in which
paid editors are, in fact, motivated NOT TO reveal their affiliations.

best,

dariusz pundit
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid editing v. paid advocacy (editing)

2014-01-09 Thread Erlend Bjørtvedt
I agree with you, Dariusz.

We have discussed this at length in the community, and at Wikipedia Academy
in Oslo in december.

There is minimal support of a ban of paid editing. One thing is the fact
that we have both Wikipedians in Residence and editing scholarships with
GLAM institutions. It is naive to believe that cultural institutions like
museums, etc, are not commercial. I am myself among those receiving USD
1.500 from the Directorate of Cultural Heritage to write about 19th century
trappers' huts at Spitsbergen. Commercial? Probably not. Paid editing?
Definitely.

The debate among admins and at the Academy last month, revealed more or
less consensus along several lines of thought.

1) A ban of paid editing is illusionary and impractible, and will just
force paid editors underground
2) A ban will deprive us of invaluable expertise on a wide array of
subjects that would otherwise not be covered
3) Guidelines and 5 pillars take presedence over COI anyway, judge people
by what they do, and not who they are.
4) In-house employee editing is not only tolerated, but quite common at
no-wiki.
5) The line runs at paid advocacy = third-party for-pay editing for a
commercial customer, or for-pay POV editing.

During the discussion, it appeared that a large proportion of the admins
and bureaucrats who joined the discussion, had edited the articles about
their employers. Most were aware of the COI potential involved, but
asserted being able to write  objectively even about an employer.

Cheers,
Erlend Bjørtvedt
Norway


2014/1/9 Dariusz Jemielniak dar...@alk.edu.pl

 On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 10:28 AM, Tomasz Ganicz polime...@gmail.com
 wrote:

  Yes, but the question is how to enable such a system. If the rules for
   paid editors were to be very strict - many paid editors would have
  still decide to do it in secrecy anyway,


 oh, but there will ALWAYS be those lurking in the shadows. However,
 currently we frown upon edits which are according to the rules just as much
 as upon those which cross the line. I think it would be good to make and
 explicit, ostensive bright line, like Jimbo suggested - I just think the
 line should be elsewhere.

 Paid editing, when done according to the rules, and when subjected to
 transparent community control, is definitely better than a system in which
 paid editors are, in fact, motivated NOT TO reveal their affiliations.

 best,

 dariusz pundit
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-- 
*Erlend Bjørtvedt*
Nestleder, Wikimedia Norge
Vice chairman, Wikimedia Norway
Mob: +47 - 9225 9227
 http://no.wikimedia.org http://no.wikimedia.org/wiki/About_us
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[Wikimedia-l] Paid editing v. paid advocacy (editing)

2014-01-08 Thread MZMcBride
Frank Schulenburg wrote:
[...] it is widely known that paid editing is frowned upon by many in the
editing community and by the Wikimedia Foundation.

No.

Paid editing is not the same as paid advocacy (editing). This is a very
important point.

Suggested reading:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Dominic/FAQ
https://blog.wikimedia.org/?p=25830

N.B. an example of paid editing that few would likely have an issue with
in the first link and Sue's careful and correct wording in the second link.

If we're going to have such a fine distinction, we should probably better
document it to avoid misunderstandings.

MZMcBride



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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid editing v. paid advocacy (editing)

2014-01-08 Thread Liam Wyatt
Thank you very much for raising this distinction MZ. It's a very important
one and, in the recriminations about this particular event, I would hate
for the 'baby to get thrown out with the bathwater' by losing this
distinction.

-Liam / Wittylama

wittylama.com
Peace, love  metadata


On 9 January 2014 13:22, MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com wrote:

 Frank Schulenburg wrote:
 [...] it is widely known that paid editing is frowned upon by many in the
 editing community and by the Wikimedia Foundation.

 No.

 Paid editing is not the same as paid advocacy (editing). This is a very
 important point.

 Suggested reading:

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Dominic/FAQ
 https://blog.wikimedia.org/?p=25830

 N.B. an example of paid editing that few would likely have an issue with
 in the first link and Sue's careful and correct wording in the second link.

 If we're going to have such a fine distinction, we should probably better
 document it to avoid misunderstandings.

 MZMcBride



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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid editing v. paid advocacy (editing)

2014-01-08 Thread Erik Moeller
On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 6:22 PM, MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com wrote:

(Responding just on the general issue, not on the specific case.)

 Paid editing is not the same as paid advocacy (editing). This is a very
 important point.

I agree it's an important distinction. I personally think it could be
worthwhile to think about a separate non-profit organization which
receives payments and manages contracts to systematically expand
Wikipedia coverage, with payment entirely or largely decoupled from
specific articles (at most coupled to specific domains) and the
organization's policies being developed transparently in partnership
with the community. I suspect such an org could receive significant
grants and public support in its own right.

Supporting free content isn't evil - there's stuff like
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1699256938/the-vanamo-online-game-museum
which is totally awesome. It's COI and disclosure issues that raise
red flags, and more significant violations of policies that sometimes
go along with that.

It's been suggested many times through the years that WMF should
directly pay editors in some way. I don't think that's a good idea,
though I would like to see more grants in support of expenses related
to article writing (there are quite a few programs around that
already, many of them chapter-run).

*dims lights, stirs logs in fireplace*

Back in the early years, I had a little statement on my userpage
encouraging people to donate money to me if they liked my work and
wanted me to do more on Wikipedia. (Nobody took me up on it, of
course. Cheap bastards.) This was at a time when a lot of us online
community nerds were thinking about donation-based funding models for
communities. PayPal was just becoming a really big deal back then,
because it suddenly made these early community funding experiments
possible. Blender, Penny Arcade, Kuro5hin and others were among the
true pioneers of what's now called crowdfunding.

Axel Boldt deserves credit for this experiment:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiMoney . I still have a
WikiMoney bank balance of ψ18. Maybe I can convert it to a
cryptocurrency one day. :)

I'd love to see more experiments that are conducted in full awareness
of the ethical issues involved, both with funding models for free
content, and with other incentive structures. WikiMoney was actually
quite popular for a short while, considering how much of a pain it was
to actually administer!

Erik
-- 
Erik Möller
VP of Engineering and Product Development, Wikimedia Foundation

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