Re: [Wikimedia-l] Plea from Wikimedia Portugal

2018-10-12 Thread Paulo Santos Perneta
Since the first reports about Vasconcelos from WMPT to AffCom, before the 15 April General Assembly, we were asking AffCom for legal support to deal with the situation caused by Vasconcelos, as we are all volunteers and, unlike AffCom, we have no easy access to lawyers - or at least are unable to

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Plea from Wikimedia Portugal

2018-10-11 Thread Kirill Lokshin
The Affiliations Committee has no intention whatsoever of changing the process; rather, we are simply trying to determine whether the conditions that we originally set out have in fact been met. It would, perhaps, have been easier for everyone if we could have done this without having to solicit

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Plea from Wikimedia Portugal

2018-10-11 Thread Lucas Teles
I really hope that the reason for de-recognition of any affiliate is not that “the other side expressed a contrary position”. We have seen it in Brazil too, as others already started to link the dots. There where two groups in conflict. Instead of solving the problem, or even declaring itself

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Plea from Wikimedia Portugal

2018-10-11 Thread Nathan
Thank you for acknowledging the existence of this thread and the fact that AffCom is still making some effort to bring the problem to a resolution. It doesn't seem like it should be all that challenging, if one disputant is a single individual and the other is a community of people led by those

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Plea from Wikimedia Portugal

2018-10-11 Thread Kirill Lokshin
As I believe we mentioned the last time this particular topic came up, we are unlikely to resolve the intricacies of Portuguese nonprofit law by debating them on a mailing list. Gonçalo and his colleagues have quite clearly expressed their position: they believe that the process by which they

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Plea from Wikimedia Portugal

2018-10-11 Thread Nathan
I can't tell which part of this situation is the more sad; is it the events themselves, the total absence of any comment from AffCom, or the very limited interest evinced by the rest of the folks subscribed to this list? It seems if we follow the AffCom model described here, we should take WMPT

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Plea from Wikimedia Portugal

2018-10-11 Thread Chris Keating
I think there's a question to think about, about how the movement handles this kind of situation where there are evidently serious governance problems affecting an affiliate. There are some clear-cut situations (e.g. total inactivity) where the current de-recognition process can simply be

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Plea from Wikimedia Portugal

2018-10-11 Thread Paulo Santos Perneta
Just a quick message to clarify that the only conflict that ever existed in Wikimedia Portugal, as far as I know, was with João Vasconcelos himself. Paulo Alessandro Marchetti via Wikimedia-l escreveu no dia quinta, 11/10/2018 à(s) 15:38: > The pro forma statement bout what a chapter is is

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Plea from Wikimedia Portugal

2018-10-11 Thread Alessandro Marchetti via Wikimedia-l
The pro forma statement bout what a chapter is is valuable, but I think many of us kinda got the idea that the problem was not the starting point (otherwise why electing him?) but came later. It's possible that someone else with more community experience would have never behaved such way, but

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Plea from Wikimedia Portugal

2018-10-11 Thread GoEthe.wiki
Hi Illario, Apologies, I probably explained myself poorly. I never said that a chapter is a representative of the Wikimedia community, rather I was trying to explain that João’s claimed experience (emphasis on claimed) in management and conflict resolution was a major factor in him being elected

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Plea from Wikimedia Portugal

2018-10-11 Thread Ilario Valdelli
The best mistake you do is to consider the wikimedia chapter as a representative of the Wikipedia community while this statement is basically wrong. When you say that Vasconcelos had no Wikipedia editing experience and continue to support your position using this motivation, you probably have no

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Plea from Wikimedia Portugal

2018-10-10 Thread Ανώνυμος Βικιπαιδιστής
Hello, I'm really sorry to hear about the situation in Wikimedia Portugal. I hope everything works out for the best soon. I would really love to hear the side of the AffCom on the matter since, from what I understand, there are many things unclear and we already counding a similar situation in

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Plea from Wikimedia Portugal

2018-10-10 Thread Alessandro Marchetti via Wikimedia-l
When I read such mails, I think there is something that it's not 100% working in the workflow of AffCom. If i might say how i feel it, I would say that it is not perceived like a "catalyst" of good practices, but more like a bottleneck of processes. Maybe more transparency could help. UG and

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Plea from Wikimedia Portugal

2018-10-10 Thread Pine W
SJ, maybe I should explain my comments about involvement of legal counsel in more detail. My understanding of the situation, which is far from complete and may be wrong, is that AffCom decided to intervene in this situation (1) before they had undertaken an effort to gather facts "on the ground",

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Plea from Wikimedia Portugal

2018-10-10 Thread Paulo Santos Perneta
Hello SJ, Thank you very much for those words, and for help dispelling the idea that we are fatally bound to de-recognizement. I do hope we are not, but when everything is done by the chapter according to what is asked, even ahead of time and in a overzealous way, and we receive a new message

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Plea from Wikimedia Portugal

2018-10-10 Thread Samuel Klein
Gonçalo, Goethe, and all: Thank you for your work, which I appreciate dearly, and for the public discussion. I can also imagine this was a very hard letter to write. Paulo, to your concerns: > for a Foundation-run committee[3] that apparently wants to kill us at all costs. Euh... surely not

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Plea from Wikimedia Portugal

2018-10-10 Thread Paulo Santos Perneta
Some time ago, a Wikimedian friend told me AffCom is like the physician that comes to help with the cure when an Affiliate is ill. But that's really what they were in this WMPT case? This is a very bizarre situation, of which I'm personally having a lot of difficulties finding rational answers to

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Plea from Wikimedia Portugal

2018-10-09 Thread Pine W
While I have limited knowledge of the facts in this situation, I am concerned about the possibility that AffCom is insufficiently investigating facts before making judgments. Interventions from Affcom which are undertaken with an insufficient knowledge of the facts risk doing more harm than good.

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Plea from Wikimedia Portugal

2018-10-09 Thread Lane Rasberry
I do not know Wikimedia Portugal's situation but I am sympathetic to their claim of difficulty staying in compliance. Over the years I have heard many Wikimedia community organizations claim that staying in compliance with Wikimedia Foundation and Affiliations Committee requests are difficult. As

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Plea from Wikimedia Portugal

2018-10-09 Thread Alchimista
As a wikimedia Portugal board member I totally agree with Gonçalo's statement. Despite what I believe where AffCom best efforts, they clearly didn't knew how to properly deal with this situation. They took official positions without hearing us, they've imposed a roadmap that we had to accomplish

[Wikimedia-l] Plea from Wikimedia Portugal

2018-10-09 Thread GoEthe.wiki
The original message was rejected due to a filter rule match, but you can access it here: https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediapt/2018-October/002698.html I am sending it below without the links. Please access the link above for the full version. __ Sorry in advance for the