Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please rename this list to shitfight-l, and give us a list where civil discussion about wikimedia can take place
I must agree with the frustration over the quality of discussion on this mailing list lately, but I did want to make clear my appreciation to the list admins, who have decided to avoid playing semantic word games over what is and is not appropriate, and started moderating people who want to use this list for personal abuse, trolling, and other inappropriate discussions. This list has an unfortunate but not undeserved reputation as a bit of a sewer, but that doesn't mean we should lower our expectations on user conduct. From this subscriber at least, your attempts to clean up this place are very much appreciated, and I hope they continue. Cheers, Craig On 16 June 2014 15:43, Dennis Pierri dennis6...@gmail.com wrote: Buddy I would support more common sense, some people on the list just don't think twice before hitting send, that's the way you start a wildfire. This has become an unmoderated forum full of people who seemingly doesn't remember that there are better ways or places to say to another I hate you. Really everyone should ask themselves before hitting send some of this questions: Does this serves a good purpose? Is it going to do any good? Will it cause unnecessary conflict? It is written in a proper and polite way? Being emotional and eager to say something is not so good here, it's a mail list, you can take your time, be as polite as possible, and use your common sense, or else this will get worse. Dennis Pierri On 16/06/2014, at 00:01, Jasper Deng jas...@jasperswebsite.com wrote: I would support increased moderation too, except that sockpuppetry on email lists is trivial (do we really want to go into the mess of implementing CheckUser for email headers?). On Sun, Jun 15, 2014 at 9:24 PM, Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton rodrigo.argen...@gmail.com wrote: But this behaviour that you are saying is so Wikimedia Movement, the name is totally correct. And expect a block, because they are free, but they need to act in the name of the community, to stop 'trolls'. ;) On 16 June 2014 00:51, Dennis Pierri dennis6...@gmail.com wrote: Agreed, this list has seen too much personal confrontation, fights and general shit and nothing really productive lately, by the way, be ready for the shit storm from those who feel alluded. On Sun, Jun 15, 2014 at 10:33 PM, billinghurst billinghu...@gmail.com wrote: I am looking for a productive mailing list that discusses matters of importance to the Wikimedia community. That the people on such a list can have these discussions politely, respectfully, and with concern for others in that the words that say, and attitudes taken. I want to see announcements, I want to see a higher quality of conversation on what should be a flaglist in the mailing list space of Wikimedia. We don't have it. One gets to the point of utter frustration with this list, and it is time that the backstabbers, frontstabbers, bitchfighters, venal, conceited, etc. need a place to kill each other with as much venom as possible, but not under the more impressive and specific name of wikimedia-l. So please rename this list, and take all its people to something befitting the behaviour seen. Then please produce a clean list for those who don't have to have the antics of these unbearable, egotistical, and apparently intolerant and chauvinistic people, and please don't let them join that list. They can have their shithole and revel in it. They know who they are and they would feel ashamed if they had a modicum of interest outside of themselves. If that is not possible, then those of who us who want a higher quality discussion will unsubscribe, and be unrepresented and unheard. Another win for the trolls, and a sad reflection on the direction. Regards, Billinghurst ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l , mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe -- Dennis Pierri ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe -- Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton rodrigo.argen...@gmail.com +55 11 979 718 884 ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please rename this list to shitfight-l, and give us a list where civil discussion about wikimedia can take place
On 16/06/14 13:03, billinghurst wrote: I am looking for a productive mailing list that discusses matters of importance to the Wikimedia community. That the people on such a list can have these discussions politely, respectfully, and with concern for others in that the words that say, and attitudes taken. I want to see announcements, I want to see a higher quality of conversation on what should be a flaglist in the mailing list space of Wikimedia. That's a tautology. You can't postmoderate a mailing list. There's not even any meaningful access control (luckily the trolls haven't figured that out yet). You can't even premoderate in any meaningful way, because people use reply all to send messages directly to the thread participants. So there's not really any way to do better than what we're doing already. People get angry when there are 10 posts in a row on a topic that they don't care about, because they use unthreaded clients and so have no way to organise messages into groups. And people that do use threaded clients are constantly annoyed when people send to the list in a way that breaks threading. The way to have a better mailing list is to not use a mailing list. NNTP with a web frontend would be better in pretty much every way. -- Tim Starling ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please rename this list to shitfight-l, and give us a list where civil discussion about wikimedia can take place
On 16 June 2014 10:41, Tim Starling tstarl...@wikimedia.org wrote: The way to have a better mailing list is to not use a mailing list. NNTP with a web frontend would be better in pretty much every way. There are no good web frontends for NNTP. (GMane and Google Groups both manage worst of both worlds.) My hypothesis is that this is because the fundamental unit of NNTP/email is the message, but of web forums it's the thread. Idle rambling, with comments from people who also used to love NNTP but can't be bothered any more: http://reddragdiva.dreamwidth.org/566555.html - d. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please rename this list to shitfight-l, and give us a list where civil discussion about wikimedia can take place
On 16 June 2014 10:43, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: On 16 June 2014 10:41, Tim Starling tstarl...@wikimedia.org wrote: The way to have a better mailing list is to not use a mailing list. NNTP with a web frontend would be better in pretty much every way. There are no good web frontends for NNTP. (GMane and Google Groups both manage worst of both worlds.) My hypothesis is that this is because the fundamental unit of NNTP/email is the message, but of web forums it's the thread. Idle rambling, with comments from people who also used to love NNTP but can't be bothered any more: http://reddragdiva.dreamwidth.org/566555.html Of course, there's the what NNTP died of problem. Here's a recent LessWrong thread in which I posit it died of not being on the Web and Gwern suggests it was actually good killfiling: http://lesswrong.com/lw/kbk/meta_policy_for_dealing_with_users/az6f - d. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please rename this list to shitfight-l, and give us a list where civil discussion about wikimedia can take place
Thinking twice is nice and that's what mailman moderation is about. Just for this month we could half the soft quota (https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l ) and calculate it over two months. According to http://www.infodisiac.com/Wikipedia/ScanMail/Wikimedia-l.html this would mean moderating me as soon as I hit send now. :) Nemo ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please rename this list to shitfight-l, and give us a list where civil discussion about wikimedia can take place
I am looking for a productive mailing list that discusses matters of importance to the Wikimedia community. That the people on such a list can have these discussions politely, respectfully, and with concern for others in that the words that say, and attitudes taken. I want to see announcements, I want to see a higher quality of conversation on what should be a flaglist in the mailing list space of Wikimedia. Producing civil discourse isn't easy. I was very impressed by AGF when I first arrived at Wikipedia, and it's taken me some years to realize it goes badly wrong in the long term; protects refined trolls, who learn to use it as a shield against accusations of bad faith and a weapon against those of good faith whom they manage to provoke. The opposite extreme may only work under special circumstances --- Never assume https://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Wikinews:Never_assume works tolerably well for en.wn, but Wikinews has the advantage that most discussions can't meaningfully drag out anyway because most issues of contention would be unpublished articles, which rapidly go stale and become irrelevant (so that partial moderation of discussions is afforded indirectly by en.wn's article-review workflow, which is more nearly objective than a direct discussion-moderation). Arguably, AGF shows that fully distributed moderation doesn't work, while Never assume only shows that weak direct moderation can work if there's an external factor imposing order. The internet is a dangerous place http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/climate_desk/2014/02/internet_troll_personality_study_machiavellianism_narcissism_psychopathy.html and one wants a set of rules for moderating internet discussions that is radically inclusive of those of good faith but wildly different views, exclusive of troublemakers, and objective enough to be enforced consistently and successfully by many different moderators of good faith. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please rename this list to shitfight-l, and give us a list where civil discussion about wikimedia can take place
Nemo, thanks for that - it really made me laugh. Jane On Mon, Jun 16, 2014 at 12:23 PM, Federico Leva (Nemo) nemow...@gmail.com wrote: Thinking twice is nice and that's what mailman moderation is about. Just for this month we could half the soft quota (https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l ) and calculate it over two months. According to http://www.infodisiac.com/Wikipedia/ScanMail/Wikimedia-l.html this would mean moderating me as soon as I hit send now. :) Nemo ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please rename this list to shitfight-l, and give us a list where civil discussion about wikimedia can take place
Everyone move to wikien-l! It's pretty much disused now. Go on, give me work to do. On 16 June 2014 11:23, Federico Leva (Nemo) nemow...@gmail.com wrote: Thinking twice is nice and that's what mailman moderation is about. Just for this month we could half the soft quota (https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l ) and calculate it over two months. According to http://www.infodisiac.com/Wikipedia/ScanMail/Wikimedia-l.html this would mean moderating me as soon as I hit send now. :) Nemo ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please rename this list to shitfight-l, and give us a list where civil discussion about wikimedia can take place
Hoi, Sorry but en,wp is not for me and many others.. No reasons except that it is not what I/we am/are involved in. We need something that is more inclusive. Thanks, GerardM On 16 June 2014 13:44, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: Everyone move to wikien-l! It's pretty much disused now. Go on, give me work to do. On 16 June 2014 11:23, Federico Leva (Nemo) nemow...@gmail.com wrote: Thinking twice is nice and that's what mailman moderation is about. Just for this month we could half the soft quota (https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l ) and calculate it over two months. According to http://www.infodisiac.com/Wikipedia/ScanMail/Wikimedia-l.html this would mean moderating me as soon as I hit send now. :) Nemo ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
