Re: [Wikimedia-l] Reducing the net cost of Wikimania

2016-03-01 Thread Ellie Young
On Fri, Feb 26, 2016 at 6:46 AM, Itzik - Wikimedia Israel <
it...@wikimedia.org.il> wrote:

> On Fri, Feb 19, 2016 at 3:06 AM, Samuel Klein  wrote:
>
> > Itzik, what were the equivalent budgets for Haifa?  From the post-mortem
> on
> > Meta it looks like a $280K budget, and a $100K WMF grant. This included
> > paying for the event coordinator, which is now budgeted separately. That
> > was for the finest event one could hope for.
> >
>
> Yes, in Haifa we got $100K from the WMF (and $100K for scholarships handled
> by the WMF). The total event costs were $270K. The majority of the budget
> was raised by scholarships.
>
>
> Ellie - "Project management from WMF" means you?
>

I wish! :-)   It's actually my salary, the salary we pay for local host
team project manager, and also registration services coordinator.

Ellie


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-- 
Ellie Young
Events Manager
Wikimedia Foundation
eyo...@wikimedia.org
c. 510 701 8649
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Reducing the net cost of Wikimania

2016-02-26 Thread Itzik - Wikimedia Israel
On Fri, Feb 19, 2016 at 3:06 AM, Samuel Klein  wrote:

> Itzik, what were the equivalent budgets for Haifa?  From the post-mortem on
> Meta it looks like a $280K budget, and a $100K WMF grant. This included
> paying for the event coordinator, which is now budgeted separately. That
> was for the finest event one could hope for.
>

Yes, in Haifa we got $100K from the WMF (and $100K for scholarships handled
by the WMF). The total event costs were $270K. The majority of the budget
was raised by scholarships.


Ellie - "Project management from WMF" means you?
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Reducing the net cost of Wikimania

2016-02-25 Thread David Goodman
Agreeing with Rich:

We actually have funds available for one international meting a year, plus
one in each region, and to give scholarships  covering the full cost to
every committed WPedian who asks for them. ( On the whole I think most
people would,  from any region, thou some might not ask for anything beyond
international  transportation) . It would be different if we were barely
making ends meet.

But tha last few years has shown that we have been obtaining each year
 more money than we can usefully spend, and even if we were to devote  half
the surplus into an endowment, there is still many millions remaining. The
one thing we should not do with it is expand the WMF paid staff.
(The only other practical use for the money is to expand access to paid
resources)

On Fri, Feb 19, 2016 at 2:15 PM, Richard Farmbrough <
rich...@farmbrough.co.uk> wrote:

> It's all very well to assume that certain demographics are wealthy. But it
> is simply a stereotype. Wikipedians I know personally from the "privileged"
> demographics vary from those who are well off through to those who are
> saddled with substantial debt and zero income.
>
> But really the question is, given the funds available, and the benefits
> that accrue, why there should be such a limited WMF spend on Wikimania
> (and/or other gatherings).   It is one of the few discretionary spends that
> we know from stories like Doc James' has a huge impact.
>
> On 10/02/2016 16:27, Béria Lima wrote:
>
>> And I for one agree with the new policy. The effort made by a European
>> (or American, or Canadian) to travel to a Wikimania, is something like one
>> month of salary. For a woman from the same place will probably be 2 months
>> (pay gap at its finest!) and for a Latino, African, or Asiatic the effort
>> starts at 6 months and go on to even a decade*[4]* (A full decade of your
>> salary to go to Wikimania).
>>
>
>
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-- 
David Goodman

DGG at the enWP
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:DGG
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:DGG
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Reducing the net cost of Wikimania

2016-02-19 Thread Richard Farmbrough
It's all very well to assume that certain demographics are wealthy. But 
it is simply a stereotype. Wikipedians I know personally from the 
"privileged" demographics vary from those who are well off through to 
those who are saddled with substantial debt and zero income.


But really the question is, given the funds available, and the benefits 
that accrue, why there should be such a limited WMF spend on Wikimania 
(and/or other gatherings).   It is one of the few discretionary spends 
that we know from stories like Doc James' has a huge impact.


On 10/02/2016 16:27, Béria Lima wrote:
And I for one agree with the new policy. The effort made by a European 
(or American, or Canadian) to travel to a Wikimania, is something like 
one month of salary. For a woman from the same place will probably be 
2 months (pay gap at its finest!) and for a Latino, African, or 
Asiatic the effort starts at 6 months and go on to even a decade*[4]* 
(A full decade of your salary to go to Wikimania).



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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Reducing the net cost of Wikimania

2016-02-19 Thread Pharos
I'd like to second Lodewijk's suggestion of something more like Wikicamp,
though I don't think that necessarily means it has be much smaller.

I wonder how the economics of something like the Wikimedia Armenia
experience would expand to a larger, more international participation.

Personally, it has always been my ambition to host a WikiWoodstock in an
upstate New York campground, but that's just me :)

Thanks,
Richard
(User:Pharos)

On Fri, Feb 19, 2016 at 12:54 PM, Lodewijk 
wrote:

> An experiment I'd be more than willing to think about, is to have a 'real
> wikimania' every two years, and a more 'light edition' the other year (with
> less aimed attendance, less WMF participation, maybe less subsidised, a
> cheaper location, more like a wikicamp).
>
> But, to look at that in a proper way, we have to know a bit more details,
> and that requires a good discussion, rather than a one-off survey.
>
> Lodewijk
>
> On Fri, Feb 19, 2016 at 6:48 PM, Gerard Meijssen <
> gerard.meijs...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Hoi,
> >
> > Again, we have not "proven" in any way that it has to be cheap. When
> cheap
> > comes at the prize of losing what is precious.
> >
> > When we choose to ignore the cost of WMF travel of personnel, we
> > effectively cook the books because the need for WMF inclusion is high. It
> > is one of the aspects that makes Wikimania precious.
> >
> > Much of the value of Wikimania is in meeting people from all over the
> > world. This is happily ignored in a quest for a cheap experience.
> > Thanks,
> >GerardM
> >
> > On 19 February 2016 at 02:06, Samuel Klein  wrote:
> >
> > > Chris & Ellie:  I don't think I would include 'WMF Travel/Accomodation'
> > or
> > > general Wikimedia PR in the Wikimania overhead.
> > >   * Staff have a budget for travel to events of all kinds; the Board
> has
> > a
> > > budget for its meetings wherever they are held; and similarly the few
> > > committees that meet in person have a budget for those meetings.
> > >   * The fact that these things happen to take place at Wikimania is, if
> > > anything, a slight cost savings: some of the logistics of scheduling
> and
> > > finding venues can be shared, it allows coordinating press events, 
> > >
> > >
> > > Lodewijk, I agree: we should be able to find ways to limit direct
> > expenses,
> > > and increase sponsorships.  We could also increase the number of people
> > who
> > > benefit from scholarships, or are otherwise able to attend.
> > >
> > > Focusing on direct expenses from recent Wikimanias:
> > > * 2014 budget:  $250K revenue + a $150K WMF grant.  Actual: $280K
> > revenue,
> > > needed $320K from WMF to cover direct expenses
> > > * 2015 budget:  $150K revenue + a $300K WMF grant.  Actual: $100K
> > revenue,
> > > needed $380K from WMF to cover direct expenses
> > > * 2016 budget:  $290K? revenue + a $250K WMF grant.
> > >
> > > Itzik, what were the equivalent budgets for Haifa?  From the
> post-mortem
> > on
> > > Meta it looks like a $280K budget, and a $100K WMF grant. This included
> > > paying for the event coordinator, which is now budgeted separately.
> That
> > > was for the finest event one could hope for.
> > >
> > >
> > > Lodewijk writes:
> > > > 'wikimania direct' is quite expensive, to be honest, and much more
> > than I
> > > > would have expected. However, it does include catering, which is
> always
> > > > an expensive chunk...
> > >
> > > Registration fees should at least cover the marginal cost of the event:
> > > catering & materials per person.
> > >
> > >
> > > > looking at these figures, I can agree that it should be possible to
> do
> > it
> > > for
> > > > less, I'm less certain though whether the proposed splitting up would
> > > > significantly reduce the total costs for everything that is included
> > > here.
> > >
> > > The greater part of money spent on attending Wikimania is the
> > out-of-pocket
> > > cost of flights and hotels.  The cost of this for non-local attendees
> is
> > > 10-50x the cost of registration.  Running many simultaneous local
> events
> > > has a greater total budget, if you look only at the budgets of the
> > > organizers; but a much lower cost per person.  There are many more
> > options
> > > for free venues and low-cost lodging when you're not scrambling to fit
> > 1000
> > > people in a small region of a city.  And a smaller fraction of money
> > spent
> > > goes towards jet fuel.
> > >
> > > For this reason, the same pool of scholarship funds would go farther.
> > >
> > > Finally, I don't think we should oversell the current Wikimania as a
> > > universal connector.  I too want there to be a community thing that
> > builds
> > > interpersonal connections and is accessible to every community member
> at
> > > low cost.  But that thing cannot be a $2,000-net-cost week-long
> > > conference.  Many people could never attend such an event, even if it
> > were
> > > free.  It is a long time commitment, and is 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Reducing the net cost of Wikimania

2016-02-19 Thread Ellie Young
On Fri, Feb 19, 2016 at 9:47 AM, Lodewijk 
wrote:

> Hi Ellie,
>
> with donations, i was referring to the item on the linked financial report.
> Does it indeed include sponsorships?
>

I've corrected-- it should just be sponsorships.

Ellie

>
> Lodewijk
>
> On Fri, Feb 19, 2016 at 6:00 PM, Ellie Young  wrote:
>
> > On Thu, Feb 18, 2016 at 3:19 PM, Lodewijk 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Thanks, it is a step in the right direction indeed. Although a bit more
> > > breakdown would be helpful,
> >
> >
> > I am working on that
> >
> >
> > > I'm guessing this also highly fluctuates year
> > > by year.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > Some observations:
> > >
> > > A huge amount of money goes into flying WMF around the world (321k
> resp.
> > > 383k), which doesn't even take into account (I'm assuming) all the
> hours
> > > invested into it.
> > >
> >
> > The expenses related to staff time to attend and other staff support
> within
> > the Foundation is
> > not accounted for here.  (We have included my time, and contract staff
> > support that we pay to
> > assist the local team.)
> >
> >
> > > I'm assuming 'donations' includes sponsorships. That amount is less
> than
> > I
> > > would have expected/hoped.
> >
> >
> > Not sure what you mean by 'donations'.   Donors to WMF do support
> Wikimania
> > since we
> > heavily subsidize the event (registration fees are VERY low and don't
> cover
> > the costs... that has
> > been a policy to keep it very affordable.Sponsorships are from
> > corporate sponsors
> > like ask.com, google, wikihow, etc.   These relationships are managed by
> > me
> >  The local
> > host team also is involved in trying to get sponsorships, which is often
> > very difficult.  I'd
> > welcome more suggestions and help in finding more sponsors.
> >
> >
> > > Registration income is low, as expected (the
> > > burden would just be moved to a different part of our movement: the
> > > community)
> > >
> > > 'wikimania direct' is quite expensive, to be honest, and much more
> than I
> > > would have expected. However, it does include catering, which is always
> > an
> > > expensive chunk (5days * 1000 people will even at a quite low 30 dollar
> > per
> > > day easily give 150k, not even counting the parties etc).
> > >
> >
> > Catering is usually our highest direct cost.  In London Wikimania '14, it
> > was the rental of
> > the Barbican Centre venue.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Many of these costs would still exist if you split the event up in
> > multiple
> > > events spread out. WMF would still want to fly everywhere (board has to
> > > meet anyway, WMF staff wants to engage anyway, committees have to meet
> > > somewhere), catering won't be much cheaper if spread over multiple
> > events,
> > > and don't underestimate the manpower it would take to organise all
> those
> > > events - relatively it may be even more.
> > >
> >
> > I do think we could consider some different models for how we produce
> > conferences
> > that would be more reasonable cost-wise.  And yes, there might be
> > additional expense
> > for staffing, but this could be offset  depending on the format, location
> > and size
> > of the conference.
> >
> > >
> > > So looking at these figures, I can agree that it should be possible to
> do
> > > it for less, I'm less certain though whether the proposed splitting up
> > > would significantly reduce the total costs for everything that is
> > included
> > > here.
> > >
> >
> > Maybe we should do the "experiment" as suggested and see!
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Lodewijk
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, Feb 18, 2016 at 11:52 PM, Sam Klein 
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > That's most helpful, thank you both.
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 5:14 PM, Pharos <
> pharosofalexand...@gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Thanks, Ellie and Chris, this historical experience should be very
> > > > helpful
> > > > > for future discussions!
> > > > >
> > > > > Best,
> > > > > Pharos
> > > > >
> > > > > On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 5:06 PM, Chris Schilling <
> > > > cschill...@wikimedia.org
> > > > > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hey folks,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ellie has put together a summarized budget including revenue and
> > > > expenses
> > > > > > from Wikimania 2014 in London[1] and Wikimania 2015[2], which
> I've
> > > gone
> > > > > > ahead and posted to the summary pages of these conferences on
> meta.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Chris
> > > > > >
> > > > > > [1] 
> > > > > > [2] 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 1:15 PM, Samuel Klein  >
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Itzik writes:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > If we want to talk about the cost of Wikimania it will be
> great
> > > if
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > WMF and the 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Reducing the net cost of Wikimania

2016-02-19 Thread Lodewijk
An experiment I'd be more than willing to think about, is to have a 'real
wikimania' every two years, and a more 'light edition' the other year (with
less aimed attendance, less WMF participation, maybe less subsidised, a
cheaper location, more like a wikicamp).

But, to look at that in a proper way, we have to know a bit more details,
and that requires a good discussion, rather than a one-off survey.

Lodewijk

On Fri, Feb 19, 2016 at 6:48 PM, Gerard Meijssen 
wrote:

> Hoi,
>
> Again, we have not "proven" in any way that it has to be cheap. When cheap
> comes at the prize of losing what is precious.
>
> When we choose to ignore the cost of WMF travel of personnel, we
> effectively cook the books because the need for WMF inclusion is high. It
> is one of the aspects that makes Wikimania precious.
>
> Much of the value of Wikimania is in meeting people from all over the
> world. This is happily ignored in a quest for a cheap experience.
> Thanks,
>GerardM
>
> On 19 February 2016 at 02:06, Samuel Klein  wrote:
>
> > Chris & Ellie:  I don't think I would include 'WMF Travel/Accomodation'
> or
> > general Wikimedia PR in the Wikimania overhead.
> >   * Staff have a budget for travel to events of all kinds; the Board has
> a
> > budget for its meetings wherever they are held; and similarly the few
> > committees that meet in person have a budget for those meetings.
> >   * The fact that these things happen to take place at Wikimania is, if
> > anything, a slight cost savings: some of the logistics of scheduling and
> > finding venues can be shared, it allows coordinating press events, 
> >
> >
> > Lodewijk, I agree: we should be able to find ways to limit direct
> expenses,
> > and increase sponsorships.  We could also increase the number of people
> who
> > benefit from scholarships, or are otherwise able to attend.
> >
> > Focusing on direct expenses from recent Wikimanias:
> > * 2014 budget:  $250K revenue + a $150K WMF grant.  Actual: $280K
> revenue,
> > needed $320K from WMF to cover direct expenses
> > * 2015 budget:  $150K revenue + a $300K WMF grant.  Actual: $100K
> revenue,
> > needed $380K from WMF to cover direct expenses
> > * 2016 budget:  $290K? revenue + a $250K WMF grant.
> >
> > Itzik, what were the equivalent budgets for Haifa?  From the post-mortem
> on
> > Meta it looks like a $280K budget, and a $100K WMF grant. This included
> > paying for the event coordinator, which is now budgeted separately. That
> > was for the finest event one could hope for.
> >
> >
> > Lodewijk writes:
> > > 'wikimania direct' is quite expensive, to be honest, and much more
> than I
> > > would have expected. However, it does include catering, which is always
> > > an expensive chunk...
> >
> > Registration fees should at least cover the marginal cost of the event:
> > catering & materials per person.
> >
> >
> > > looking at these figures, I can agree that it should be possible to do
> it
> > for
> > > less, I'm less certain though whether the proposed splitting up would
> > > significantly reduce the total costs for everything that is included
> > here.
> >
> > The greater part of money spent on attending Wikimania is the
> out-of-pocket
> > cost of flights and hotels.  The cost of this for non-local attendees is
> > 10-50x the cost of registration.  Running many simultaneous local events
> > has a greater total budget, if you look only at the budgets of the
> > organizers; but a much lower cost per person.  There are many more
> options
> > for free venues and low-cost lodging when you're not scrambling to fit
> 1000
> > people in a small region of a city.  And a smaller fraction of money
> spent
> > goes towards jet fuel.
> >
> > For this reason, the same pool of scholarship funds would go farther.
> >
> > Finally, I don't think we should oversell the current Wikimania as a
> > universal connector.  I too want there to be a community thing that
> builds
> > interpersonal connections and is accessible to every community member at
> > low cost.  But that thing cannot be a $2,000-net-cost week-long
> > conference.  Many people could never attend such an event, even if it
> were
> > free.  It is a long time commitment, and is inevitably mono or bilingual.
> >
> > Sam
> > (who loves the current Wikimanias, and thinks they should continue! but
> > doesn't think they are the pinnacle of what movement-gatherings could be)
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Feb 18, 2016 at 5:52 PM, Sam Klein 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > That's most helpful, thank you both.
> > >
> > > On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 5:14 PM, Pharos 
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >> Thanks, Ellie and Chris, this historical experience should be very
> > helpful
> > >> for future discussions!
> > >>
> > >> Best,
> > >> Pharos
> > >>
> > >> On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 5:06 PM, Chris Schilling <
> > >> cschill...@wikimedia.org>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > Hey folks,
> > >> >
> > >> > 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Reducing the net cost of Wikimania

2016-02-19 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,

Again, we have not "proven" in any way that it has to be cheap. When cheap
comes at the prize of losing what is precious.

When we choose to ignore the cost of WMF travel of personnel, we
effectively cook the books because the need for WMF inclusion is high. It
is one of the aspects that makes Wikimania precious.

Much of the value of Wikimania is in meeting people from all over the
world. This is happily ignored in a quest for a cheap experience.
Thanks,
   GerardM

On 19 February 2016 at 02:06, Samuel Klein  wrote:

> Chris & Ellie:  I don't think I would include 'WMF Travel/Accomodation' or
> general Wikimedia PR in the Wikimania overhead.
>   * Staff have a budget for travel to events of all kinds; the Board has a
> budget for its meetings wherever they are held; and similarly the few
> committees that meet in person have a budget for those meetings.
>   * The fact that these things happen to take place at Wikimania is, if
> anything, a slight cost savings: some of the logistics of scheduling and
> finding venues can be shared, it allows coordinating press events, 
>
>
> Lodewijk, I agree: we should be able to find ways to limit direct expenses,
> and increase sponsorships.  We could also increase the number of people who
> benefit from scholarships, or are otherwise able to attend.
>
> Focusing on direct expenses from recent Wikimanias:
> * 2014 budget:  $250K revenue + a $150K WMF grant.  Actual: $280K revenue,
> needed $320K from WMF to cover direct expenses
> * 2015 budget:  $150K revenue + a $300K WMF grant.  Actual: $100K revenue,
> needed $380K from WMF to cover direct expenses
> * 2016 budget:  $290K? revenue + a $250K WMF grant.
>
> Itzik, what were the equivalent budgets for Haifa?  From the post-mortem on
> Meta it looks like a $280K budget, and a $100K WMF grant. This included
> paying for the event coordinator, which is now budgeted separately. That
> was for the finest event one could hope for.
>
>
> Lodewijk writes:
> > 'wikimania direct' is quite expensive, to be honest, and much more than I
> > would have expected. However, it does include catering, which is always
> > an expensive chunk...
>
> Registration fees should at least cover the marginal cost of the event:
> catering & materials per person.
>
>
> > looking at these figures, I can agree that it should be possible to do it
> for
> > less, I'm less certain though whether the proposed splitting up would
> > significantly reduce the total costs for everything that is included
> here.
>
> The greater part of money spent on attending Wikimania is the out-of-pocket
> cost of flights and hotels.  The cost of this for non-local attendees is
> 10-50x the cost of registration.  Running many simultaneous local events
> has a greater total budget, if you look only at the budgets of the
> organizers; but a much lower cost per person.  There are many more options
> for free venues and low-cost lodging when you're not scrambling to fit 1000
> people in a small region of a city.  And a smaller fraction of money spent
> goes towards jet fuel.
>
> For this reason, the same pool of scholarship funds would go farther.
>
> Finally, I don't think we should oversell the current Wikimania as a
> universal connector.  I too want there to be a community thing that builds
> interpersonal connections and is accessible to every community member at
> low cost.  But that thing cannot be a $2,000-net-cost week-long
> conference.  Many people could never attend such an event, even if it were
> free.  It is a long time commitment, and is inevitably mono or bilingual.
>
> Sam
> (who loves the current Wikimanias, and thinks they should continue! but
> doesn't think they are the pinnacle of what movement-gatherings could be)
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 18, 2016 at 5:52 PM, Sam Klein 
> wrote:
>
> > That's most helpful, thank you both.
> >
> > On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 5:14 PM, Pharos 
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Thanks, Ellie and Chris, this historical experience should be very
> helpful
> >> for future discussions!
> >>
> >> Best,
> >> Pharos
> >>
> >> On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 5:06 PM, Chris Schilling <
> >> cschill...@wikimedia.org>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Hey folks,
> >> >
> >> > Ellie has put together a summarized budget including revenue and
> >> expenses
> >> > from Wikimania 2014 in London[1] and Wikimania 2015[2], which I've
> gone
> >> > ahead and posted to the summary pages of these conferences on meta.
> >> >
> >> > Thanks,
> >> >
> >> > Chris
> >> >
> >> > [1] 
> >> > [2] 
> >> >
> >> > On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 1:15 PM, Samuel Klein 
> >> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > Itzik writes:
> >> > >
> >> > > > If we want to talk about the cost of Wikimania it will be great if
> >> the
> >> > > WMF and the local team will share the costs.
> >> > > > 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Reducing the net cost of Wikimania

2016-02-19 Thread Lodewijk
Hi Ellie,

with donations, i was referring to the item on the linked financial report.
Does it indeed include sponsorships?

Lodewijk

On Fri, Feb 19, 2016 at 6:00 PM, Ellie Young  wrote:

> On Thu, Feb 18, 2016 at 3:19 PM, Lodewijk 
> wrote:
>
> > Thanks, it is a step in the right direction indeed. Although a bit more
> > breakdown would be helpful,
>
>
> I am working on that
>
>
> > I'm guessing this also highly fluctuates year
> > by year.
>
>
>
>
> > Some observations:
> >
> > A huge amount of money goes into flying WMF around the world (321k resp.
> > 383k), which doesn't even take into account (I'm assuming) all the hours
> > invested into it.
> >
>
> The expenses related to staff time to attend and other staff support within
> the Foundation is
> not accounted for here.  (We have included my time, and contract staff
> support that we pay to
> assist the local team.)
>
>
> > I'm assuming 'donations' includes sponsorships. That amount is less than
> I
> > would have expected/hoped.
>
>
> Not sure what you mean by 'donations'.   Donors to WMF do support Wikimania
> since we
> heavily subsidize the event (registration fees are VERY low and don't cover
> the costs... that has
> been a policy to keep it very affordable.Sponsorships are from
> corporate sponsors
> like ask.com, google, wikihow, etc.   These relationships are managed by
> me
>  The local
> host team also is involved in trying to get sponsorships, which is often
> very difficult.  I'd
> welcome more suggestions and help in finding more sponsors.
>
>
> > Registration income is low, as expected (the
> > burden would just be moved to a different part of our movement: the
> > community)
> >
> > 'wikimania direct' is quite expensive, to be honest, and much more than I
> > would have expected. However, it does include catering, which is always
> an
> > expensive chunk (5days * 1000 people will even at a quite low 30 dollar
> per
> > day easily give 150k, not even counting the parties etc).
> >
>
> Catering is usually our highest direct cost.  In London Wikimania '14, it
> was the rental of
> the Barbican Centre venue.
>
>
> >
> > Many of these costs would still exist if you split the event up in
> multiple
> > events spread out. WMF would still want to fly everywhere (board has to
> > meet anyway, WMF staff wants to engage anyway, committees have to meet
> > somewhere), catering won't be much cheaper if spread over multiple
> events,
> > and don't underestimate the manpower it would take to organise all those
> > events - relatively it may be even more.
> >
>
> I do think we could consider some different models for how we produce
> conferences
> that would be more reasonable cost-wise.  And yes, there might be
> additional expense
> for staffing, but this could be offset  depending on the format, location
> and size
> of the conference.
>
> >
> > So looking at these figures, I can agree that it should be possible to do
> > it for less, I'm less certain though whether the proposed splitting up
> > would significantly reduce the total costs for everything that is
> included
> > here.
> >
>
> Maybe we should do the "experiment" as suggested and see!
>
>
> >
> > Lodewijk
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Feb 18, 2016 at 11:52 PM, Sam Klein 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > That's most helpful, thank you both.
> > >
> > > On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 5:14 PM, Pharos 
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Thanks, Ellie and Chris, this historical experience should be very
> > > helpful
> > > > for future discussions!
> > > >
> > > > Best,
> > > > Pharos
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 5:06 PM, Chris Schilling <
> > > cschill...@wikimedia.org
> > > > >
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hey folks,
> > > > >
> > > > > Ellie has put together a summarized budget including revenue and
> > > expenses
> > > > > from Wikimania 2014 in London[1] and Wikimania 2015[2], which I've
> > gone
> > > > > ahead and posted to the summary pages of these conferences on meta.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > >
> > > > > Chris
> > > > >
> > > > > [1] 
> > > > > [2] 
> > > > >
> > > > > On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 1:15 PM, Samuel Klein 
> > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Itzik writes:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > If we want to talk about the cost of Wikimania it will be great
> > if
> > > > the
> > > > > > WMF and the local team will share the costs.
> > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2014/Budget
> > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2015/Budget
> > > > > > > Maybe I missed something, but it's strange that such discussion
> > > takes
> > > > > > place without a real budget breakdown.
> > > > > > > To summarize 2 huge event to "1$ million USD" does not make
> > sense.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Agreed 1million%.  It would be important to see a rough 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Reducing the net cost of Wikimania

2016-02-19 Thread Ellie Young
On Thu, Feb 18, 2016 at 5:06 PM, Samuel Klein  wrote:

> Chris & Ellie:  I don't think I would include 'WMF Travel/Accomodation' or
> general Wikimedia PR in the Wikimania overhead.
>

It usually isn't but this was prepared in response to people in earlier
threads wanting to know the total WMF cost for Wikimania.  When I get the
detailed breakout for Wikimania direct expenses done, I will reformat/note
this.


>   * Staff have a budget for travel to events of all kinds; the Board has a
> budget for its meetings wherever they are held; and similarly the few
> committees that meet in person have a budget for those meetings.
>   * The fact that these things happen to take place at Wikimania is, if
> anything, a slight cost savings: some of the logistics of scheduling and
> finding venues can be shared, it allows coordinating press events, 
>
>
> Lodewijk, I agree: we should be able to find ways to limit direct
> expenses, and increase sponsorships.  We could also increase the number of
> people who benefit from scholarships, or are otherwise able to attend.
>
> Focusing on direct expenses from recent Wikimanias:
> * 2014 budget:  $250K revenue + a $150K WMF grant.  Actual: $280K revenue,
> needed $320K from WMF to cover direct expenses
> * 2015 budget:  $150K revenue + a $300K WMF grant.  Actual: $100K revenue,
> needed $380K from WMF to cover direct expenses
> * 2016 budget:  $290K? revenue
>

I think the Esino Lario team is projecting about $100K in other sources of
revenue (but this will be updated I'm sure since the information on the bid
is preliminary).


> + a $250K WMF grant.
>



>
> Itzik, what were the equivalent budgets for Haifa?  From the post-mortem
> on Meta it looks like a $280K budget, and a $100K WMF grant. This included
> paying for the event coordinator, which is now budgeted separately. That
> was for the finest event one could hope for.
>
>
> Lodewijk writes:
> > 'wikimania direct' is quite expensive, to be honest, and much more than
> I
> > would have expected. However, it does include catering, which is always
> > an expensive chunk...
>
> Registration fees should at least cover the marginal cost of the event:
> catering & materials per person.
>

I could pitch that to WMF when we set fees/budget  for future
Wikimania's

>
>

>
> > looking at these figures, I can agree that it should be possible to do it
> for
> > less, I'm less certain though whether the proposed splitting up would
> > significantly reduce the total costs for everything that is included
> here.
>
> The greater part of money spent on attending Wikimania is the
> out-of-pocket cost of flights and hotels.  The cost of this for non-local
> attendees is 10-50x the cost of registration.  Running many simultaneous
> local events has a greater total budget, if you look only at the budgets of
> the organizers; but a much lower cost per person.  There are many more
> options for free venues and low-cost lodging when you're not scrambling to
> fit 1000 people in a small region of a city.  And a smaller fraction of
> money spent goes towards jet fuel.
>
> For this reason, the same pool of scholarship funds would go farther.
>
> Finally, I don't think we should oversell the current Wikimania as a
> universal connector.  I too want there to be a community thing that
> builds interpersonal connections and is accessible to every community
> member at low cost.  But that thing cannot be a $2,000-net-cost week-long
> conference.  Many people could never attend such an event, even if it were
> free.  It is a long time commitment, and is inevitably mono or bilingual.
>
> Sam
> (who loves the current Wikimanias, and thinks they should continue! but
> doesn't think they are the pinnacle of what movement-gatherings could be)
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 18, 2016 at 5:52 PM, Sam Klein 
> wrote:
>
>> That's most helpful, thank you both.
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 5:14 PM, Pharos 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks, Ellie and Chris, this historical experience should be very
>>> helpful
>>> for future discussions!
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Pharos
>>>
>>> On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 5:06 PM, Chris Schilling <
>>> cschill...@wikimedia.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> > Hey folks,
>>> >
>>> > Ellie has put together a summarized budget including revenue and
>>> expenses
>>> > from Wikimania 2014 in London[1] and Wikimania 2015[2], which I've gone
>>> > ahead and posted to the summary pages of these conferences on meta.
>>> >
>>> > Thanks,
>>> >
>>> > Chris
>>> >
>>> > [1] 
>>> > [2] 
>>> >
>>> > On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 1:15 PM, Samuel Klein 
>>> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > > Itzik writes:
>>> > >
>>> > > > If we want to talk about the cost of Wikimania it will be great if
>>> the
>>> > > WMF and the local team will share the costs.
>>> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2014/Budget
>>> > > > 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Reducing the net cost of Wikimania

2016-02-19 Thread Ellie Young
On Thu, Feb 18, 2016 at 3:19 PM, Lodewijk 
wrote:

> Thanks, it is a step in the right direction indeed. Although a bit more
> breakdown would be helpful,


I am working on that


> I'm guessing this also highly fluctuates year
> by year.




> Some observations:
>
> A huge amount of money goes into flying WMF around the world (321k resp.
> 383k), which doesn't even take into account (I'm assuming) all the hours
> invested into it.
>

The expenses related to staff time to attend and other staff support within
the Foundation is
not accounted for here.  (We have included my time, and contract staff
support that we pay to
assist the local team.)


> I'm assuming 'donations' includes sponsorships. That amount is less than I
> would have expected/hoped.


Not sure what you mean by 'donations'.   Donors to WMF do support Wikimania
since we
heavily subsidize the event (registration fees are VERY low and don't cover
the costs... that has
been a policy to keep it very affordable.Sponsorships are from
corporate sponsors
like ask.com, google, wikihow, etc.   These relationships are managed by me
 The local
host team also is involved in trying to get sponsorships, which is often
very difficult.  I'd
welcome more suggestions and help in finding more sponsors.


> Registration income is low, as expected (the
> burden would just be moved to a different part of our movement: the
> community)
>
> 'wikimania direct' is quite expensive, to be honest, and much more than I
> would have expected. However, it does include catering, which is always an
> expensive chunk (5days * 1000 people will even at a quite low 30 dollar per
> day easily give 150k, not even counting the parties etc).
>

Catering is usually our highest direct cost.  In London Wikimania '14, it
was the rental of
the Barbican Centre venue.


>
> Many of these costs would still exist if you split the event up in multiple
> events spread out. WMF would still want to fly everywhere (board has to
> meet anyway, WMF staff wants to engage anyway, committees have to meet
> somewhere), catering won't be much cheaper if spread over multiple events,
> and don't underestimate the manpower it would take to organise all those
> events - relatively it may be even more.
>

I do think we could consider some different models for how we produce
conferences
that would be more reasonable cost-wise.  And yes, there might be
additional expense
for staffing, but this could be offset  depending on the format, location
and size
of the conference.

>
> So looking at these figures, I can agree that it should be possible to do
> it for less, I'm less certain though whether the proposed splitting up
> would significantly reduce the total costs for everything that is included
> here.
>

Maybe we should do the "experiment" as suggested and see!


>
> Lodewijk
>
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 18, 2016 at 11:52 PM, Sam Klein 
> wrote:
>
> > That's most helpful, thank you both.
> >
> > On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 5:14 PM, Pharos 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Thanks, Ellie and Chris, this historical experience should be very
> > helpful
> > > for future discussions!
> > >
> > > Best,
> > > Pharos
> > >
> > > On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 5:06 PM, Chris Schilling <
> > cschill...@wikimedia.org
> > > >
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hey folks,
> > > >
> > > > Ellie has put together a summarized budget including revenue and
> > expenses
> > > > from Wikimania 2014 in London[1] and Wikimania 2015[2], which I've
> gone
> > > > ahead and posted to the summary pages of these conferences on meta.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > >
> > > > Chris
> > > >
> > > > [1] 
> > > > [2] 
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 1:15 PM, Samuel Klein 
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Itzik writes:
> > > > >
> > > > > > If we want to talk about the cost of Wikimania it will be great
> if
> > > the
> > > > > WMF and the local team will share the costs.
> > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2014/Budget
> > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2015/Budget
> > > > > > Maybe I missed something, but it's strange that such discussion
> > takes
> > > > > place without a real budget breakdown.
> > > > > > To summarize 2 huge event to "1$ million USD" does not make
> sense.
> > > > >
> > > > > Agreed 1million%.  It would be important to see a rough cost
> > > breakdown, &
> > > > > compare that to the best-budgeted Wikimanias.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 9:52 AM, Tomasz Ganicz <
> polime...@gmail.com>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > 2016-02-10 6:06 GMT+01:00 Samuel Klein :
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > FUDCons
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Also it is hard to compare Wikimanias with FUDCons as it is
> > > > > > a) much  smaller (usually bo more than 200 attendees)
> > > > > > b) divided by 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Reducing the net cost of Wikimania

2016-02-18 Thread Leigh Thelmadatter
I have to disagree. money for WMF employee attendance is still WMF money... 
still coming from donations.
I find it very interesting that so much more is spent on employee attendance 
then volunteer attendance.


> From: meta...@gmail.com
> Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2016 20:06:28 -0500
> To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Reducing the net cost of Wikimania
> 
> Chris & Ellie:  I don't think I would include 'WMF Travel/Accomodation' or
> general Wikimedia PR in the Wikimania overhead.
>   * Staff have a budget for travel to events of all kinds; the Board has a
> budget for its meetings wherever they are held; and similarly the few
> committees that meet in person have a budget for those meetings.
>   * The fact that these things happen to take place at Wikimania is, if
> anything, a slight cost savings: some of the logistics of scheduling and
> finding venues can be shared, it allows coordinating press events, 
> 
> 
> Lodewijk, I agree: we should be able to find ways to limit direct expenses,
> and increase sponsorships.  We could also increase the number of people who
> benefit from scholarships, or are otherwise able to attend.
> 
> Focusing on direct expenses from recent Wikimanias:
> * 2014 budget:  $250K revenue + a $150K WMF grant.  Actual: $280K revenue,
> needed $320K from WMF to cover direct expenses
> * 2015 budget:  $150K revenue + a $300K WMF grant.  Actual: $100K revenue,
> needed $380K from WMF to cover direct expenses
> * 2016 budget:  $290K? revenue + a $250K WMF grant.
> 
> Itzik, what were the equivalent budgets for Haifa?  From the post-mortem on
> Meta it looks like a $280K budget, and a $100K WMF grant. This included
> paying for the event coordinator, which is now budgeted separately. That
> was for the finest event one could hope for.
> 
> 
> Lodewijk writes:
> > 'wikimania direct' is quite expensive, to be honest, and much more than I
> > would have expected. However, it does include catering, which is always
> > an expensive chunk...
> 
> Registration fees should at least cover the marginal cost of the event:
> catering & materials per person.
> 
> 
> > looking at these figures, I can agree that it should be possible to do it
> for
> > less, I'm less certain though whether the proposed splitting up would
> > significantly reduce the total costs for everything that is included here.
> 
> The greater part of money spent on attending Wikimania is the out-of-pocket
> cost of flights and hotels.  The cost of this for non-local attendees is
> 10-50x the cost of registration.  Running many simultaneous local events
> has a greater total budget, if you look only at the budgets of the
> organizers; but a much lower cost per person.  There are many more options
> for free venues and low-cost lodging when you're not scrambling to fit 1000
> people in a small region of a city.  And a smaller fraction of money spent
> goes towards jet fuel.
> 
> For this reason, the same pool of scholarship funds would go farther.
> 
> Finally, I don't think we should oversell the current Wikimania as a
> universal connector.  I too want there to be a community thing that builds
> interpersonal connections and is accessible to every community member at
> low cost.  But that thing cannot be a $2,000-net-cost week-long
> conference.  Many people could never attend such an event, even if it were
> free.  It is a long time commitment, and is inevitably mono or bilingual.
> 
> Sam
> (who loves the current Wikimanias, and thinks they should continue! but
> doesn't think they are the pinnacle of what movement-gatherings could be)
> 
> 
> On Thu, Feb 18, 2016 at 5:52 PM, Sam Klein <sjkl...@hcs.harvard.edu> wrote:
> 
> > That's most helpful, thank you both.
> >
> > On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 5:14 PM, Pharos <pharosofalexand...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Thanks, Ellie and Chris, this historical experience should be very helpful
> >> for future discussions!
> >>
> >> Best,
> >> Pharos
> >>
> >> On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 5:06 PM, Chris Schilling <
> >> cschill...@wikimedia.org>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Hey folks,
> >> >
> >> > Ellie has put together a summarized budget including revenue and
> >> expenses
> >> > from Wikimania 2014 in London[1] and Wikimania 2015[2], which I've gone
> >> > ahead and posted to the summary pages of these conferences on meta.
> >> >
> >> > Thanks,
> >> >
> >> > Chris
> >> >
> >> > [1] <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2014>
> >> > [2] 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Reducing the net cost of Wikimania

2016-02-18 Thread Samuel Klein
Chris & Ellie:  I don't think I would include 'WMF Travel/Accomodation' or
general Wikimedia PR in the Wikimania overhead.
  * Staff have a budget for travel to events of all kinds; the Board has a
budget for its meetings wherever they are held; and similarly the few
committees that meet in person have a budget for those meetings.
  * The fact that these things happen to take place at Wikimania is, if
anything, a slight cost savings: some of the logistics of scheduling and
finding venues can be shared, it allows coordinating press events, 


Lodewijk, I agree: we should be able to find ways to limit direct expenses,
and increase sponsorships.  We could also increase the number of people who
benefit from scholarships, or are otherwise able to attend.

Focusing on direct expenses from recent Wikimanias:
* 2014 budget:  $250K revenue + a $150K WMF grant.  Actual: $280K revenue,
needed $320K from WMF to cover direct expenses
* 2015 budget:  $150K revenue + a $300K WMF grant.  Actual: $100K revenue,
needed $380K from WMF to cover direct expenses
* 2016 budget:  $290K? revenue + a $250K WMF grant.

Itzik, what were the equivalent budgets for Haifa?  From the post-mortem on
Meta it looks like a $280K budget, and a $100K WMF grant. This included
paying for the event coordinator, which is now budgeted separately. That
was for the finest event one could hope for.


Lodewijk writes:
> 'wikimania direct' is quite expensive, to be honest, and much more than I
> would have expected. However, it does include catering, which is always
> an expensive chunk...

Registration fees should at least cover the marginal cost of the event:
catering & materials per person.


> looking at these figures, I can agree that it should be possible to do it
for
> less, I'm less certain though whether the proposed splitting up would
> significantly reduce the total costs for everything that is included here.

The greater part of money spent on attending Wikimania is the out-of-pocket
cost of flights and hotels.  The cost of this for non-local attendees is
10-50x the cost of registration.  Running many simultaneous local events
has a greater total budget, if you look only at the budgets of the
organizers; but a much lower cost per person.  There are many more options
for free venues and low-cost lodging when you're not scrambling to fit 1000
people in a small region of a city.  And a smaller fraction of money spent
goes towards jet fuel.

For this reason, the same pool of scholarship funds would go farther.

Finally, I don't think we should oversell the current Wikimania as a
universal connector.  I too want there to be a community thing that builds
interpersonal connections and is accessible to every community member at
low cost.  But that thing cannot be a $2,000-net-cost week-long
conference.  Many people could never attend such an event, even if it were
free.  It is a long time commitment, and is inevitably mono or bilingual.

Sam
(who loves the current Wikimanias, and thinks they should continue! but
doesn't think they are the pinnacle of what movement-gatherings could be)


On Thu, Feb 18, 2016 at 5:52 PM, Sam Klein  wrote:

> That's most helpful, thank you both.
>
> On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 5:14 PM, Pharos 
> wrote:
>
>> Thanks, Ellie and Chris, this historical experience should be very helpful
>> for future discussions!
>>
>> Best,
>> Pharos
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 5:06 PM, Chris Schilling <
>> cschill...@wikimedia.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Hey folks,
>> >
>> > Ellie has put together a summarized budget including revenue and
>> expenses
>> > from Wikimania 2014 in London[1] and Wikimania 2015[2], which I've gone
>> > ahead and posted to the summary pages of these conferences on meta.
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> >
>> > Chris
>> >
>> > [1] 
>> > [2] 
>> >
>> > On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 1:15 PM, Samuel Klein 
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > > Itzik writes:
>> > >
>> > > > If we want to talk about the cost of Wikimania it will be great if
>> the
>> > > WMF and the local team will share the costs.
>> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2014/Budget
>> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2015/Budget
>> > > > Maybe I missed something, but it's strange that such discussion
>> takes
>> > > place without a real budget breakdown.
>> > > > To summarize 2 huge event to "1$ million USD" does not make sense.
>> > >
>> > > Agreed 1million%.  It would be important to see a rough cost
>> breakdown, &
>> > > compare that to the best-budgeted Wikimanias.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 9:52 AM, Tomasz Ganicz 
>> > > wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > 2016-02-10 6:06 GMT+01:00 Samuel Klein :
>> > > >
>> > > > > FUDCons
>> > > >
>> > > > Also it is hard to compare Wikimanias with FUDCons as it is
>> > > > a) much  smaller (usually bo more than 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Reducing the net cost of Wikimania

2016-02-18 Thread Marc A. Pelletier

On 2016-02-18 7:18 PM, Risker wrote:

June-July-August is the most expensive period
for just about everywhere in the world; March, April, September and October
tend to be much less expensive in lodging, travel and direct conference
costs.  Maybe we need to rethink*when*  we are holding Wikimania as much as
anything else.


That is true, and availability of venues etc would be greatly increased.

The flipside, however, is that those months are not ones where 
*availability* for travel are high.  Most schools/universities are in 
session, and employed participants (those most likely to have disposable 
income to travel) are generally less able to take time off they those 
months fall outside the general "summer vacation" period [at least in 
the Northern Hemisphere].


It's not clear to me that a cheaper event fewer people are able to 
attend is preferable.


-- Marc

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Reducing the net cost of Wikimania

2016-02-18 Thread Risker
I mostly agree with a lot of the thoughts here about whether or not it
would be more cost effective to do one event or multiple events, at least
organizationally.

There are two things that cross my mind when we talk about this:

First, maybe one of the bigger drivers of cost is the time of year when we
are holding these events.  June-July-August is the most expensive period
for just about everywhere in the world; March, April, September and October
tend to be much less expensive in lodging, travel and direct conference
costs.  Maybe we need to rethink *when* we are holding Wikimania as much as
anything else.

Secondly, while there are some pretty well articulated disadvantages to
holding separate conferences, it is far more likely that Wikimedians who
have to pay their own way (the majority of attendees, incidentally - and
almost all from "Western" countries) will be able to attend a regional
conference than an international one. The same scholarship dollars go much
further, and so on. In a lot of cases, governmental travel restrictions are
significantly lessened as well.  This is something that those of us in
Europe and North America easily forget - we rarely have to obtain visas and
we generally have far more disposable income to attend these events.

Risker/Anne





On 18 February 2016 at 19:04, Gnangarra  wrote:

> The first thing that happens when you split up something like Wikimania in
> multiple events is you multiple the cost of WMF attendance because they
> need to deliver the same messages multiple times, an alternative decision
> to restrict who goes where you run into the issue of regions being treated
> differently or even getting a different message. Add to that the BoT would
> need to also attend multiple events in some form and other committees will
> still need to meet somewhere as well as have a presence at each event.
>
> So what happens do we then say well since it'll be divisive to attend only
> some of the meetings WMF and BoT dont attend any that makes them more
> isolated from the wider community than they already are.  Wkikmania may be
> expensive exercise and draw on a lot of resources but going smaller wont
> logically create combined cheaper outcomes.
>
> On 19 February 2016 at 07:19, Lodewijk 
> wrote:
>
> > Thanks, it is a step in the right direction indeed. Although a bit more
> > breakdown would be helpful, I'm guessing this also highly fluctuates year
> > by year. Some observations:
> >
> > A huge amount of money goes into flying WMF around the world (321k resp.
> > 383k), which doesn't even take into account (I'm assuming) all the hours
> > invested into it.
> >
> > I'm assuming 'donations' includes sponsorships. That amount is less than
> I
> > would have expected/hoped. Registration income is low, as expected (the
> > burden would just be moved to a different part of our movement: the
> > community)
> >
> > 'wikimania direct' is quite expensive, to be honest, and much more than I
> > would have expected. However, it does include catering, which is always
> an
> > expensive chunk (5days * 1000 people will even at a quite low 30 dollar
> per
> > day easily give 150k, not even counting the parties etc).
> >
> > Many of these costs would still exist if you split the event up in
> multiple
> > events spread out. WMF would still want to fly everywhere (board has to
> > meet anyway, WMF staff wants to engage anyway, committees have to meet
> > somewhere), catering won't be much cheaper if spread over multiple
> events,
> > and don't underestimate the manpower it would take to organise all those
> > events - relatively it may be even more.
> >
> > So looking at these figures, I can agree that it should be possible to do
> > it for less, I'm less certain though whether the proposed splitting up
> > would significantly reduce the total costs for everything that is
> included
> > here.
> >
> > Lodewijk
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Feb 18, 2016 at 11:52 PM, Sam Klein 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > That's most helpful, thank you both.
> > >
> > > On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 5:14 PM, Pharos 
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Thanks, Ellie and Chris, this historical experience should be very
> > > helpful
> > > > for future discussions!
> > > >
> > > > Best,
> > > > Pharos
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 5:06 PM, Chris Schilling <
> > > cschill...@wikimedia.org
> > > > >
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hey folks,
> > > > >
> > > > > Ellie has put together a summarized budget including revenue and
> > > expenses
> > > > > from Wikimania 2014 in London[1] and Wikimania 2015[2], which I've
> > gone
> > > > > ahead and posted to the summary pages of these conferences on meta.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > >
> > > > > Chris
> > > > >
> > > > > [1] 
> > > > > [2] 
> > > > >
> > > > > On Wed, Feb 10, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Reducing the net cost of Wikimania

2016-02-18 Thread Gnangarra
The first thing that happens when you split up something like Wikimania in
multiple events is you multiple the cost of WMF attendance because they
need to deliver the same messages multiple times, an alternative decision
to restrict who goes where you run into the issue of regions being treated
differently or even getting a different message. Add to that the BoT would
need to also attend multiple events in some form and other committees will
still need to meet somewhere as well as have a presence at each event.

So what happens do we then say well since it'll be divisive to attend only
some of the meetings WMF and BoT dont attend any that makes them more
isolated from the wider community than they already are.  Wkikmania may be
expensive exercise and draw on a lot of resources but going smaller wont
logically create combined cheaper outcomes.

On 19 February 2016 at 07:19, Lodewijk  wrote:

> Thanks, it is a step in the right direction indeed. Although a bit more
> breakdown would be helpful, I'm guessing this also highly fluctuates year
> by year. Some observations:
>
> A huge amount of money goes into flying WMF around the world (321k resp.
> 383k), which doesn't even take into account (I'm assuming) all the hours
> invested into it.
>
> I'm assuming 'donations' includes sponsorships. That amount is less than I
> would have expected/hoped. Registration income is low, as expected (the
> burden would just be moved to a different part of our movement: the
> community)
>
> 'wikimania direct' is quite expensive, to be honest, and much more than I
> would have expected. However, it does include catering, which is always an
> expensive chunk (5days * 1000 people will even at a quite low 30 dollar per
> day easily give 150k, not even counting the parties etc).
>
> Many of these costs would still exist if you split the event up in multiple
> events spread out. WMF would still want to fly everywhere (board has to
> meet anyway, WMF staff wants to engage anyway, committees have to meet
> somewhere), catering won't be much cheaper if spread over multiple events,
> and don't underestimate the manpower it would take to organise all those
> events - relatively it may be even more.
>
> So looking at these figures, I can agree that it should be possible to do
> it for less, I'm less certain though whether the proposed splitting up
> would significantly reduce the total costs for everything that is included
> here.
>
> Lodewijk
>
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 18, 2016 at 11:52 PM, Sam Klein 
> wrote:
>
> > That's most helpful, thank you both.
> >
> > On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 5:14 PM, Pharos 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Thanks, Ellie and Chris, this historical experience should be very
> > helpful
> > > for future discussions!
> > >
> > > Best,
> > > Pharos
> > >
> > > On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 5:06 PM, Chris Schilling <
> > cschill...@wikimedia.org
> > > >
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hey folks,
> > > >
> > > > Ellie has put together a summarized budget including revenue and
> > expenses
> > > > from Wikimania 2014 in London[1] and Wikimania 2015[2], which I've
> gone
> > > > ahead and posted to the summary pages of these conferences on meta.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > >
> > > > Chris
> > > >
> > > > [1] 
> > > > [2] 
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 1:15 PM, Samuel Klein 
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Itzik writes:
> > > > >
> > > > > > If we want to talk about the cost of Wikimania it will be great
> if
> > > the
> > > > > WMF and the local team will share the costs.
> > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2014/Budget
> > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2015/Budget
> > > > > > Maybe I missed something, but it's strange that such discussion
> > takes
> > > > > place without a real budget breakdown.
> > > > > > To summarize 2 huge event to "1$ million USD" does not make
> sense.
> > > > >
> > > > > Agreed 1million%.  It would be important to see a rough cost
> > > breakdown, &
> > > > > compare that to the best-budgeted Wikimanias.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 9:52 AM, Tomasz Ganicz <
> polime...@gmail.com>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > 2016-02-10 6:06 GMT+01:00 Samuel Klein :
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > FUDCons
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Also it is hard to compare Wikimanias with FUDCons as it is
> > > > > > a) much  smaller (usually bo more than 200 attendees)
> > > > > > b) divided by regions - for example in 2015 there were 3 FUDCons
> > > > > > (Argentina, India, Spain) and 2 Flocks (NY and Kraków) -  so they
> > are
> > > > > > rather like our Iberecop or CEE meetings than the global
> > conferences.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks.  Similar to regional events perhaps, not Wikimania.  Still
> > > worth
> > > > > comparing budgets perhaps, if 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Reducing the net cost of Wikimania

2016-02-18 Thread Lodewijk
Thanks, it is a step in the right direction indeed. Although a bit more
breakdown would be helpful, I'm guessing this also highly fluctuates year
by year. Some observations:

A huge amount of money goes into flying WMF around the world (321k resp.
383k), which doesn't even take into account (I'm assuming) all the hours
invested into it.

I'm assuming 'donations' includes sponsorships. That amount is less than I
would have expected/hoped. Registration income is low, as expected (the
burden would just be moved to a different part of our movement: the
community)

'wikimania direct' is quite expensive, to be honest, and much more than I
would have expected. However, it does include catering, which is always an
expensive chunk (5days * 1000 people will even at a quite low 30 dollar per
day easily give 150k, not even counting the parties etc).

Many of these costs would still exist if you split the event up in multiple
events spread out. WMF would still want to fly everywhere (board has to
meet anyway, WMF staff wants to engage anyway, committees have to meet
somewhere), catering won't be much cheaper if spread over multiple events,
and don't underestimate the manpower it would take to organise all those
events - relatively it may be even more.

So looking at these figures, I can agree that it should be possible to do
it for less, I'm less certain though whether the proposed splitting up
would significantly reduce the total costs for everything that is included
here.

Lodewijk



On Thu, Feb 18, 2016 at 11:52 PM, Sam Klein  wrote:

> That's most helpful, thank you both.
>
> On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 5:14 PM, Pharos 
> wrote:
>
> > Thanks, Ellie and Chris, this historical experience should be very
> helpful
> > for future discussions!
> >
> > Best,
> > Pharos
> >
> > On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 5:06 PM, Chris Schilling <
> cschill...@wikimedia.org
> > >
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hey folks,
> > >
> > > Ellie has put together a summarized budget including revenue and
> expenses
> > > from Wikimania 2014 in London[1] and Wikimania 2015[2], which I've gone
> > > ahead and posted to the summary pages of these conferences on meta.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > Chris
> > >
> > > [1] 
> > > [2] 
> > >
> > > On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 1:15 PM, Samuel Klein 
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Itzik writes:
> > > >
> > > > > If we want to talk about the cost of Wikimania it will be great if
> > the
> > > > WMF and the local team will share the costs.
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2014/Budget
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2015/Budget
> > > > > Maybe I missed something, but it's strange that such discussion
> takes
> > > > place without a real budget breakdown.
> > > > > To summarize 2 huge event to "1$ million USD" does not make sense.
> > > >
> > > > Agreed 1million%.  It would be important to see a rough cost
> > breakdown, &
> > > > compare that to the best-budgeted Wikimanias.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 9:52 AM, Tomasz Ganicz 
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > 2016-02-10 6:06 GMT+01:00 Samuel Klein :
> > > > >
> > > > > > FUDCons
> > > > >
> > > > > Also it is hard to compare Wikimanias with FUDCons as it is
> > > > > a) much  smaller (usually bo more than 200 attendees)
> > > > > b) divided by regions - for example in 2015 there were 3 FUDCons
> > > > > (Argentina, India, Spain) and 2 Flocks (NY and Kraków) -  so they
> are
> > > > > rather like our Iberecop or CEE meetings than the global
> conferences.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Thanks.  Similar to regional events perhaps, not Wikimania.  Still
> > worth
> > > > comparing budgets perhaps, if available.
> > > >
> > > > But I was wondering about the trend over time: whether extensive
> > funding
> > > > during the RedHat days made the events less useful, in the years
> after
> > > that
> > > > funding was reduced.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > And also Fedora developers have many potential sources of external
> > > > funding
> > > > > - mainly from IT companies which uses free software and want to
> apply
> > > for
> > > > > their specific needs and for whom they quite often work.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > True.  But attendees to GLAM or education conferences also tend to
> have
> > > > many potential sources of funding - mainly from archives or
> educational
> > > or
> > > > technical companies who curate knowledge or develop education tools.
> > And
> > > we
> > > > have IT industry partners who are similarly willing to support
> > > Wikimanias.
> > > > Not entirely dissimilar.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > But anyway, Fedora offers scholarships for attendees, see:
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Yes, wiki conferences should as well - that part of conference
> funding
> > is
> > > > important.  Even early Wikimanias with almost 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Reducing the net cost of Wikimania

2016-02-18 Thread Sam Klein
That's most helpful, thank you both.

On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 5:14 PM, Pharos 
wrote:

> Thanks, Ellie and Chris, this historical experience should be very helpful
> for future discussions!
>
> Best,
> Pharos
>
> On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 5:06 PM, Chris Schilling  >
> wrote:
>
> > Hey folks,
> >
> > Ellie has put together a summarized budget including revenue and expenses
> > from Wikimania 2014 in London[1] and Wikimania 2015[2], which I've gone
> > ahead and posted to the summary pages of these conferences on meta.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Chris
> >
> > [1] 
> > [2] 
> >
> > On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 1:15 PM, Samuel Klein  wrote:
> >
> > > Itzik writes:
> > >
> > > > If we want to talk about the cost of Wikimania it will be great if
> the
> > > WMF and the local team will share the costs.
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2014/Budget
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2015/Budget
> > > > Maybe I missed something, but it's strange that such discussion takes
> > > place without a real budget breakdown.
> > > > To summarize 2 huge event to "1$ million USD" does not make sense.
> > >
> > > Agreed 1million%.  It would be important to see a rough cost
> breakdown, &
> > > compare that to the best-budgeted Wikimanias.
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 9:52 AM, Tomasz Ganicz 
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > 2016-02-10 6:06 GMT+01:00 Samuel Klein :
> > > >
> > > > > FUDCons
> > > >
> > > > Also it is hard to compare Wikimanias with FUDCons as it is
> > > > a) much  smaller (usually bo more than 200 attendees)
> > > > b) divided by regions - for example in 2015 there were 3 FUDCons
> > > > (Argentina, India, Spain) and 2 Flocks (NY and Kraków) -  so they are
> > > > rather like our Iberecop or CEE meetings than the global conferences.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Thanks.  Similar to regional events perhaps, not Wikimania.  Still
> worth
> > > comparing budgets perhaps, if available.
> > >
> > > But I was wondering about the trend over time: whether extensive
> funding
> > > during the RedHat days made the events less useful, in the years after
> > that
> > > funding was reduced.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > And also Fedora developers have many potential sources of external
> > > funding
> > > > - mainly from IT companies which uses free software and want to apply
> > for
> > > > their specific needs and for whom they quite often work.
> > > >
> > >
> > > True.  But attendees to GLAM or education conferences also tend to have
> > > many potential sources of funding - mainly from archives or educational
> > or
> > > technical companies who curate knowledge or develop education tools.
> And
> > we
> > > have IT industry partners who are similarly willing to support
> > Wikimanias.
> > > Not entirely dissimilar.
> > >
> > >
> > > > But anyway, Fedora offers scholarships for attendees, see:
> > > >
> > >
> > > Yes, wiki conferences should as well - that part of conference funding
> is
> > > important.  Even early Wikimanias with almost no WMF support had
> > > significant scholarship pools.
> > >
> > > S
> > > ___
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > 
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Chris "Jethro" Schilling
> > I JethroBT (WMF) 
> > Community Organizer, Wikimedia Foundation
> > 
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
> >
> ___
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> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
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> 
>



-- 
Samuel Klein  @metasj  w:user:sj  +1 617 529 4266
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Reducing the net cost of Wikimania

2016-02-17 Thread Pharos
Thanks, Ellie and Chris, this historical experience should be very helpful
for future discussions!

Best,
Pharos

On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 5:06 PM, Chris Schilling 
wrote:

> Hey folks,
>
> Ellie has put together a summarized budget including revenue and expenses
> from Wikimania 2014 in London[1] and Wikimania 2015[2], which I've gone
> ahead and posted to the summary pages of these conferences on meta.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Chris
>
> [1] 
> [2] 
>
> On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 1:15 PM, Samuel Klein  wrote:
>
> > Itzik writes:
> >
> > > If we want to talk about the cost of Wikimania it will be great if the
> > WMF and the local team will share the costs.
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2014/Budget
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2015/Budget
> > > Maybe I missed something, but it's strange that such discussion takes
> > place without a real budget breakdown.
> > > To summarize 2 huge event to "1$ million USD" does not make sense.
> >
> > Agreed 1million%.  It would be important to see a rough cost breakdown, &
> > compare that to the best-budgeted Wikimanias.
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 9:52 AM, Tomasz Ganicz 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > 2016-02-10 6:06 GMT+01:00 Samuel Klein :
> > >
> > > > FUDCons
> > >
> > > Also it is hard to compare Wikimanias with FUDCons as it is
> > > a) much  smaller (usually bo more than 200 attendees)
> > > b) divided by regions - for example in 2015 there were 3 FUDCons
> > > (Argentina, India, Spain) and 2 Flocks (NY and Kraków) -  so they are
> > > rather like our Iberecop or CEE meetings than the global conferences.
> > >
> >
> > Thanks.  Similar to regional events perhaps, not Wikimania.  Still worth
> > comparing budgets perhaps, if available.
> >
> > But I was wondering about the trend over time: whether extensive funding
> > during the RedHat days made the events less useful, in the years after
> that
> > funding was reduced.
> >
> >
> >
> > > And also Fedora developers have many potential sources of external
> > funding
> > > - mainly from IT companies which uses free software and want to apply
> for
> > > their specific needs and for whom they quite often work.
> > >
> >
> > True.  But attendees to GLAM or education conferences also tend to have
> > many potential sources of funding - mainly from archives or educational
> or
> > technical companies who curate knowledge or develop education tools. And
> we
> > have IT industry partners who are similarly willing to support
> Wikimanias.
> > Not entirely dissimilar.
> >
> >
> > > But anyway, Fedora offers scholarships for attendees, see:
> > >
> >
> > Yes, wiki conferences should as well - that part of conference funding is
> > important.  Even early Wikimanias with almost no WMF support had
> > significant scholarship pools.
> >
> > S
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Chris "Jethro" Schilling
> I JethroBT (WMF) 
> Community Organizer, Wikimedia Foundation
> 
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Reducing the net cost of Wikimania

2016-02-17 Thread Chris Schilling
Hey folks,

Ellie has put together a summarized budget including revenue and expenses
from Wikimania 2014 in London[1] and Wikimania 2015[2], which I've gone
ahead and posted to the summary pages of these conferences on meta.

Thanks,

Chris

[1] 
[2] 

On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 1:15 PM, Samuel Klein  wrote:

> Itzik writes:
>
> > If we want to talk about the cost of Wikimania it will be great if the
> WMF and the local team will share the costs.
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2014/Budget
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2015/Budget
> > Maybe I missed something, but it's strange that such discussion takes
> place without a real budget breakdown.
> > To summarize 2 huge event to "1$ million USD" does not make sense.
>
> Agreed 1million%.  It would be important to see a rough cost breakdown, &
> compare that to the best-budgeted Wikimanias.
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 9:52 AM, Tomasz Ganicz 
> wrote:
>
> > 2016-02-10 6:06 GMT+01:00 Samuel Klein :
> >
> > > FUDCons
> >
> > Also it is hard to compare Wikimanias with FUDCons as it is
> > a) much  smaller (usually bo more than 200 attendees)
> > b) divided by regions - for example in 2015 there were 3 FUDCons
> > (Argentina, India, Spain) and 2 Flocks (NY and Kraków) -  so they are
> > rather like our Iberecop or CEE meetings than the global conferences.
> >
>
> Thanks.  Similar to regional events perhaps, not Wikimania.  Still worth
> comparing budgets perhaps, if available.
>
> But I was wondering about the trend over time: whether extensive funding
> during the RedHat days made the events less useful, in the years after that
> funding was reduced.
>
>
>
> > And also Fedora developers have many potential sources of external
> funding
> > - mainly from IT companies which uses free software and want to apply for
> > their specific needs and for whom they quite often work.
> >
>
> True.  But attendees to GLAM or education conferences also tend to have
> many potential sources of funding - mainly from archives or educational or
> technical companies who curate knowledge or develop education tools. And we
> have IT industry partners who are similarly willing to support Wikimanias.
> Not entirely dissimilar.
>
>
> > But anyway, Fedora offers scholarships for attendees, see:
> >
>
> Yes, wiki conferences should as well - that part of conference funding is
> important.  Even early Wikimanias with almost no WMF support had
> significant scholarship pools.
>
> S
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Community Organizer, Wikimedia Foundation

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Reducing the net cost of Wikimania

2016-02-14 Thread Ziko van Dijk
There pure costs shouldn't be the main or only argument. What does the
movement pay, for what? How are the goals of the movement served by
Wikimania or other conventions? The better we understand that the
better our conventions are.
For example, for the programme of the Wikimedia Conference Netherlands
I looked at the strategy and annual plan of the association. It gives
you a good feeling to see that our conference was already in line with
that. :-)
Kind regards
Ziko


2016-02-13 7:52 GMT+01:00 David Goodman :
> Rather, we should spend more, possibly several times as much. We need much
> wider participation, both for Wikimania and for regional conferences, and
> the only practical way to achieve that is to pay full expenses for all
> regular participants who want to attend.  It should not be an elite event.
> The WMF is running a considerable surplus, and we should spend 5 or 10 %
>  of it on interpersonal live access to  each other.
>
> On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 6:02 PM, John Mark Vandenberg 
> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 2:28 AM, Itzik - Wikimedia Israel
>>  wrote:
>> > If we want to talk about the cost of Wikimania it will be great if the
>> WMF
>> > and the local team will share the costs.
>> >
>> > Until now Wikimania London didn't published anything:
>> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2014/Budget
>> >
>> > And also Mexico:
>> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2015/Budget
>> >
>> > Maybe I missed something, but it's strange that such discussion takes
>> place
>> > without a real budget breakdown. To summarize 2 huge event to "1$ million
>> > USD" does not make sense.
>>
>> I agree.  Without public data, how can there be an informed public
>> consultation.
>>
>> I've asked for similar data at:
>>
>>
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:IdeaLab/Towards_a_New_Wikimania#Analysis_on_repeat_funded_attendees
>>
>> --
>> John Vandenberg
>>
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>> 
>>
>
>
>
> --
> David Goodman
>
> DGG at the enWP
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:DGG
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:DGG
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Reducing the net cost of Wikimania

2016-02-12 Thread David Goodman
Rather, we should spend more, possibly several times as much. We need much
wider participation, both for Wikimania and for regional conferences, and
the only practical way to achieve that is to pay full expenses for all
regular participants who want to attend.  It should not be an elite event.
The WMF is running a considerable surplus, and we should spend 5 or 10 %
 of it on interpersonal live access to  each other.

On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 6:02 PM, John Mark Vandenberg 
wrote:

> On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 2:28 AM, Itzik - Wikimedia Israel
>  wrote:
> > If we want to talk about the cost of Wikimania it will be great if the
> WMF
> > and the local team will share the costs.
> >
> > Until now Wikimania London didn't published anything:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2014/Budget
> >
> > And also Mexico:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2015/Budget
> >
> > Maybe I missed something, but it's strange that such discussion takes
> place
> > without a real budget breakdown. To summarize 2 huge event to "1$ million
> > USD" does not make sense.
>
> I agree.  Without public data, how can there be an informed public
> consultation.
>
> I've asked for similar data at:
>
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:IdeaLab/Towards_a_New_Wikimania#Analysis_on_repeat_funded_attendees
>
> --
> John Vandenberg
>
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DGG at the enWP
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:DGG
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:DGG
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Reducing the net cost of Wikimania

2016-02-10 Thread Andrew Lih
GerardM,

As much as I agree with you on many things related to Wikimania, your
statement about en.wp and USA being “over subsidized” is off base.

For the last few years I’ve held my tongue as American applicants get a
fraction of 10% of all the funding for Wikimania scholarships. That’s
because 10% is allocated to all of North America, so US based folks compete
with Canadians for that small slice of the pie. Indeed, key community
members from the US could not afford to go to Wikimania, and did not,
because of the limited funding. We also do not have a strong chapter system
to make up for that shortcoming, where European chapters can, and do,
underwrite their local members with other funds.

I am not against the bulk of the scholarship money going to
underrepresented developing markets and giving new voices a chance to
attend. But I wanted to dispel the myth that Americans are always gorging
at the trough.

https://wikimania2013.wikimedia.org/wiki/Scholarships#Scholarship_selection_process
https://wikimania2014.wikimedia.org/wiki/Scholarships#Selection_process


-Andrew

On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 6:49 AM, Gerard Meijssen 
wrote:

> Hoi,
> Pine with all due respect, the USA is not the problem and English Wikipedia
> has been overly subsidised, given way too much attention. Indeed having
> more people from the USA attend Wikimania is not a good value proposition.
> The USA and Britain is overrepresented as it is.
> Thanks,
>  GerardM
>
> On 10 February 2016 at 10:13, Pine W  wrote:
>
> > From a US perspective, even here in the global north we have plenty of
> > students and middle-class participants for whom $1500 in travel, food and
> > lodging plus 5 days away from work, family, or school amounts to a
> > significant or impossible sacrifice.
> >
> > Perhaps someone could tell us the statistics for how many people have
> > attended Wikimania each year who were not WMF employees, FDC or WMF Board
> > members, scholarship recipients, or financially sponsored by WMF
> affiliates
> > or WEF. Of those people who pay 100% of their own costs plus the cost of
> > admission tickets, my guess is that many live within a day's travel time
> by
> > train, car, or bus.
> >
> > I would hypothesize that thematic conferences also have a low percentage
> of
> > people who pay 100% of their own costs, but that regional conferences
> which
> > have lower travel costs for the average attendee receive modestly higher
> > percentages of unsubsidized attendance.
> >
> > It seems to me that WMF finacial support for conferences, including
> > regional and thematic conferences, will continue to be the norm.
> >
> > Whether $1 million is appropriate for Wikimania and whether a more modest
> > budget would be appropriate and feasable are different questions that
> merit
> > careful reflection.
> >
> > Pine
> > ___
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> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
> >
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Reducing the net cost of Wikimania

2016-02-10 Thread Itzik - Wikimedia Israel
If we want to talk about the cost of Wikimania it will be great if the WMF
and the local team will share the costs.

Until now Wikimania London didn't published anything:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2014/Budget

And also Mexico:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2015/Budget

Maybe I missed something, but it's strange that such discussion takes place
without a real budget breakdown. To summarize 2 huge event to "1$ million
USD" does not make sense.

Itzik



*Regards,Itzik Edri*
Chairperson, Wikimedia Israel
+972-(0)-54-5878078 | http://www.wikimedia.org.il
Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the
sum of all knowledge. That's our commitment!


On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 7:06 AM, Samuel Klein  wrote:

> I found this the most interesting part of the recent IdeaLab discussion
> about changing the Wikimania framework.
>   https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IdeaLab/Towards_a_New_Wikimania
>
>   "*The total spend by WMF for Wikimania 2014 in London and 2015 in Mexico,
> including all travel, accommodations, scholarships, staff support and
> direct conference expenses, was ~$1 million USD*"
>
> This is a pity. Small grants to support a con is one thing, but this is too
> much.
>
> Please let's stop encouraging conferences that do not cover their own
> costs. A good conference series pays for itself, including its scholarship
> pool. There are plenty of communities our size or larger with wonderful,
> regular conferences of hundreds or thousands of people, which break even or
> turn a small profit.
>
> FUDCons are an interesting case in point.  As I understand it, there was a
> time when RedHat basically sponsored the events, with scholarships for all
> active contributors and extensive grants. This was ok, but skewed
> participation.  Then the lavish sponsorship stopped. Attendance dropped;
> community members felt unloved. Then after a time, this passed, and
> everyone attended again. (Perhaps a core Fedora contributor can describe
> this more accurately!)
>
> SJ
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Reducing the net cost of Wikimania

2016-02-10 Thread Tomasz Ganicz
2016-02-10 6:06 GMT+01:00 Samuel Klein :

> FUDCons


Also it is hard to compare Wikimanias with FUDCons as it is
a) much  smaller (usually bo more than 200 attendees)
b) divided by regions - for example in 2015 there were 3 FUDCons
(Argentina, India, Spain) and 2 Flocks (NY and Kraków) -  so they are
rather like our Iberecop or CEE meetings than the global conferences.

And also Fedora developers have many potential sources of external funding
- mainly from IT companies which uses free software and want to apply for
their specific needs and for whom they quite often work.

But anyway, Fedora offers scholarships for attendees, see:

https://fedorahosted.org/fudcon-planning/wiki/FundingRequest


-- 
Tomek "Polimerek" Ganicz
http://pl.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Polimerek
http://www.ganicz.pl/poli/
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Reducing the net cost of Wikimania

2016-02-10 Thread Robert Fernandez
The US may be too geographically spread out to develop a robust chapter
system.  We have vibrant chapters in a few dense population areas.
Wikimedia District of Columbia is particularly awesome.  But for most US
editors there isn't a critical mass of editors in some areas.  Often we
work with with chapters that are geographically distant.  There's at least
two of us on the Board of Directors of WMDC who don't live particularly
close to DC.

On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 11:00 AM, Jane Darnell  wrote:

> "We also do not have a strong chapter system"
>
> This has always puzzled me, because I am a firm believer in the chapter
> system, despite its faults and limitations. Isn't it time to address this
> for the more active areas of the USA?
>
> On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 10:43 AM, Andrew Lih  wrote:
>
> > GerardM,
> >
> > As much as I agree with you on many things related to Wikimania, your
> > statement about en.wp and USA being “over subsidized” is off base.
> >
> > For the last few years I’ve held my tongue as American applicants get a
> > fraction of 10% of all the funding for Wikimania scholarships. That’s
> > because 10% is allocated to all of North America, so US based folks
> compete
> > with Canadians for that small slice of the pie. Indeed, key community
> > members from the US could not afford to go to Wikimania, and did not,
> > because of the limited funding. We also do not have a strong chapter
> system
> > to make up for that shortcoming, where European chapters can, and do,
> > underwrite their local members with other funds.
> >
> > I am not against the bulk of the scholarship money going to
> > underrepresented developing markets and giving new voices a chance to
> > attend. But I wanted to dispel the myth that Americans are always gorging
> > at the trough.
> >
> >
> >
> https://wikimania2013.wikimedia.org/wiki/Scholarships#Scholarship_selection_process
> > https://wikimania2014.wikimedia.org/wiki/Scholarships#Selection_process
> >
> >
> > -Andrew
> >
> > On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 6:49 AM, Gerard Meijssen <
> > gerard.meijs...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hoi,
> > > Pine with all due respect, the USA is not the problem and English
> > Wikipedia
> > > has been overly subsidised, given way too much attention. Indeed having
> > > more people from the USA attend Wikimania is not a good value
> > proposition.
> > > The USA and Britain is overrepresented as it is.
> > > Thanks,
> > >  GerardM
> > >
> > > On 10 February 2016 at 10:13, Pine W  wrote:
> > >
> > > > From a US perspective, even here in the global north we have plenty
> of
> > > > students and middle-class participants for whom $1500 in travel, food
> > and
> > > > lodging plus 5 days away from work, family, or school amounts to a
> > > > significant or impossible sacrifice.
> > > >
> > > > Perhaps someone could tell us the statistics for how many people have
> > > > attended Wikimania each year who were not WMF employees, FDC or WMF
> > Board
> > > > members, scholarship recipients, or financially sponsored by WMF
> > > affiliates
> > > > or WEF. Of those people who pay 100% of their own costs plus the cost
> > of
> > > > admission tickets, my guess is that many live within a day's travel
> > time
> > > by
> > > > train, car, or bus.
> > > >
> > > > I would hypothesize that thematic conferences also have a low
> > percentage
> > > of
> > > > people who pay 100% of their own costs, but that regional conferences
> > > which
> > > > have lower travel costs for the average attendee receive modestly
> > higher
> > > > percentages of unsubsidized attendance.
> > > >
> > > > It seems to me that WMF finacial support for conferences, including
> > > > regional and thematic conferences, will continue to be the norm.
> > > >
> > > > Whether $1 million is appropriate for Wikimania and whether a more
> > modest
> > > > budget would be appropriate and feasable are different questions that
> > > merit
> > > > careful reflection.
> > > >
> > > > Pine
> > > > ___
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> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > 
> > > >
> > > ___
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> > > 
> > >
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Reducing the net cost of Wikimania

2016-02-10 Thread Béria Lima
Hi Andrew,

*For the last few years I’ve held my tongue as American applicants get a
> fraction of 10% of all the funding for Wikimania scholarships.*
>

Actually you are looking at the old numbers. Both Wikimanias 2015 and 2016
uses a new method of selection. Now, the Global North*[1]  *has 25% of all
scholarships, and the Global South*[2]* has 75%. Now that you have to
compete with most of the rich countries in the world. And is not all: If
you get into the final 10% of the "cutoff",your place may be taken away by
a woman (or transgender) or a Latino, since that is the policy now*[3]*.

And I for one agree with the new policy. The effort made by a European (or
American, or Canadian) to travel to a Wikimania, is something like one
month of salary. For a woman from the same place will probably be 2 months
(pay gap at its finest!) and for a Latino, African, or Asiatic the effort
starts at 6 months and go on to even a decade*[4]* (A full decade of your
salary to go to Wikimania).

So no, I don't feel sorry that most of the scholarships don't go to
Americans, I'm not denying that there is poor people in rich countries but
the level of poverty is *way* too different.

​
Béria L
​. de Rodríguez (a Latino Woman )

___
*References:*

[1]: Australia, Canada, Israel, Hong Kong, Macau, New Zealand, Japan,
Singapore, South Korea, Taiwan, the United States and all of Europe
(including Russia, but excluding Turkey) (source
)
[2]: Asia (with the exception of Japan, Hong Kong, Macau, Singapore, South
Korea and Taiwan), Turkey, Central America, South America, Mexico, Africa,
and the Middle East (with the exception of Israel) (source
)
[3]: For applicants within 10% of the "cutoff", preference will be* first*
given to the* non-male* applicant, and *secondary* preference to applicants
from* Latin America*.(source
 -
enfasis added by me)
[4]: Venezuela for example has a exchange rate Bolivar-US dolar of 1026 BSF
to 1 dolar. Their average salary is 9,500 BSF (about $ 9,00) at that pace
their probability to attend Wikimania on their own tends to zero. (source
for the exchange rate )

_

*​​**Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter
livre acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. Ajude-nos a
construir esse sonho.*

2016-02-10 13:43 GMT-02:00 Andrew Lih :

> GerardM,
>
> As much as I agree with you on many things related to Wikimania, your
> statement about en.wp and USA being “over subsidized” is off base.
>
> For the last few years I’ve held my tongue as American applicants get a
> fraction of 10% of all the funding for Wikimania scholarships. That’s
> because 10% is allocated to all of North America, so US based folks compete
> with Canadians for that small slice of the pie. Indeed, key community
> members from the US could not afford to go to Wikimania, and did not,
> because of the limited funding. We also do not have a strong chapter system
> to make up for that shortcoming, where European chapters can, and do,
> underwrite their local members with other funds.
>
> I am not against the bulk of the scholarship money going to
> underrepresented developing markets and giving new voices a chance to
> attend. But I wanted to dispel the myth that Americans are always gorging
> at the trough.
>
>
> https://wikimania2013.wikimedia.org/wiki/Scholarships#Scholarship_selection_process
> https://wikimania2014.wikimedia.org/wiki/Scholarships#Selection_process
>
>
> -Andrew
>
> On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 6:49 AM, Gerard Meijssen <
> gerard.meijs...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Hoi,
> > Pine with all due respect, the USA is not the problem and English
> Wikipedia
> > has been overly subsidised, given way too much attention. Indeed having
> > more people from the USA attend Wikimania is not a good value
> proposition.
> > The USA and Britain is overrepresented as it is.
> > Thanks,
> >  GerardM
> >
> > On 10 February 2016 at 10:13, Pine W  wrote:
> >
> > > From a US perspective, even here in the global north we have plenty of
> > > students and middle-class participants for whom $1500 in travel, food
> and
> > > lodging plus 5 days away from work, family, or school amounts to a
> > > significant or impossible sacrifice.
> > >
> > > Perhaps someone could tell us the statistics for how many people have
> > > attended Wikimania each year who were not WMF employees, FDC or WMF
> Board
> > > members, scholarship recipients, or financially sponsored by WMF
> > affiliates
> > > or WEF. Of those people who pay 100% of their own costs plus the cost
> of
> > > admission tickets, my guess is that many live within a day's travel
> time
> > by
> > > train, car, or bus.
> > >
> > > I would hypothesize that thematic conferences also have a low
> 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Reducing the net cost of Wikimania

2016-02-10 Thread Jane Darnell
"We also do not have a strong chapter system"

This has always puzzled me, because I am a firm believer in the chapter
system, despite its faults and limitations. Isn't it time to address this
for the more active areas of the USA?

On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 10:43 AM, Andrew Lih  wrote:

> GerardM,
>
> As much as I agree with you on many things related to Wikimania, your
> statement about en.wp and USA being “over subsidized” is off base.
>
> For the last few years I’ve held my tongue as American applicants get a
> fraction of 10% of all the funding for Wikimania scholarships. That’s
> because 10% is allocated to all of North America, so US based folks compete
> with Canadians for that small slice of the pie. Indeed, key community
> members from the US could not afford to go to Wikimania, and did not,
> because of the limited funding. We also do not have a strong chapter system
> to make up for that shortcoming, where European chapters can, and do,
> underwrite their local members with other funds.
>
> I am not against the bulk of the scholarship money going to
> underrepresented developing markets and giving new voices a chance to
> attend. But I wanted to dispel the myth that Americans are always gorging
> at the trough.
>
>
> https://wikimania2013.wikimedia.org/wiki/Scholarships#Scholarship_selection_process
> https://wikimania2014.wikimedia.org/wiki/Scholarships#Selection_process
>
>
> -Andrew
>
> On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 6:49 AM, Gerard Meijssen <
> gerard.meijs...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Hoi,
> > Pine with all due respect, the USA is not the problem and English
> Wikipedia
> > has been overly subsidised, given way too much attention. Indeed having
> > more people from the USA attend Wikimania is not a good value
> proposition.
> > The USA and Britain is overrepresented as it is.
> > Thanks,
> >  GerardM
> >
> > On 10 February 2016 at 10:13, Pine W  wrote:
> >
> > > From a US perspective, even here in the global north we have plenty of
> > > students and middle-class participants for whom $1500 in travel, food
> and
> > > lodging plus 5 days away from work, family, or school amounts to a
> > > significant or impossible sacrifice.
> > >
> > > Perhaps someone could tell us the statistics for how many people have
> > > attended Wikimania each year who were not WMF employees, FDC or WMF
> Board
> > > members, scholarship recipients, or financially sponsored by WMF
> > affiliates
> > > or WEF. Of those people who pay 100% of their own costs plus the cost
> of
> > > admission tickets, my guess is that many live within a day's travel
> time
> > by
> > > train, car, or bus.
> > >
> > > I would hypothesize that thematic conferences also have a low
> percentage
> > of
> > > people who pay 100% of their own costs, but that regional conferences
> > which
> > > have lower travel costs for the average attendee receive modestly
> higher
> > > percentages of unsubsidized attendance.
> > >
> > > It seems to me that WMF finacial support for conferences, including
> > > regional and thematic conferences, will continue to be the norm.
> > >
> > > Whether $1 million is appropriate for Wikimania and whether a more
> modest
> > > budget would be appropriate and feasable are different questions that
> > merit
> > > careful reflection.
> > >
> > > Pine
> > > ___
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > 
> > >
> > ___
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> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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> > 
> >
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Reducing the net cost of Wikimania

2016-02-10 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
There is only one argument that I cannot refute about American money. It is
American money that gets us the bulk of our funding. The one obvious reason
is that the fund-raising is targeting the USA. When money is spend, it is
spend predominantly in the USA and targeted for Wikipedia and English
Wikipedia at that.

Arguably the WMF is a global organisation and spending is best allocated
based on where people live. When money is targeted on where we grow, we
would not spend as much on the needs of Wikipedia. We would recognise the
importance of projects like Wikisource and finally give it some attention.
It would benefit particularly benefit India. When the model they have
adopted is introduced elsewhere, it will make many, many more books
available. THAT would have a real impact educationally speaking.

Given the small size of many communities, it is important that they benefit
from the things we already have but the thing that is so easily forgotten
is the road to get there. That road is not a universal given and it is
dominated by the road English WIkipedia has taken. What I find is that
people are happy where we are at. Never mind the nay sayers.

You mention chapters and we have good chapters in Europe. Sadly their
impact on Wikipedia is neglible because they are "not part of the
community" and what they do is largely fringe.

Really English and Wikipedia is over served. IMHO the law of diminishing
returns applies.
Thanks,
  GerardM

On 10 February 2016 at 16:43, Andrew Lih  wrote:

> GerardM,
>
> As much as I agree with you on many things related to Wikimania, your
> statement about en.wp and USA being “over subsidized” is off base.
>
> For the last few years I’ve held my tongue as American applicants get a
> fraction of 10% of all the funding for Wikimania scholarships. That’s
> because 10% is allocated to all of North America, so US based folks compete
> with Canadians for that small slice of the pie. Indeed, key community
> members from the US could not afford to go to Wikimania, and did not,
> because of the limited funding. We also do not have a strong chapter system
> to make up for that shortcoming, where European chapters can, and do,
> underwrite their local members with other funds.
>
> I am not against the bulk of the scholarship money going to
> underrepresented developing markets and giving new voices a chance to
> attend. But I wanted to dispel the myth that Americans are always gorging
> at the trough.
>
>
> https://wikimania2013.wikimedia.org/wiki/Scholarships#Scholarship_selection_process
> https://wikimania2014.wikimedia.org/wiki/Scholarships#Selection_process
>
>
> -Andrew
>
> On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 6:49 AM, Gerard Meijssen <
> gerard.meijs...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Hoi,
> > Pine with all due respect, the USA is not the problem and English
> Wikipedia
> > has been overly subsidised, given way too much attention. Indeed having
> > more people from the USA attend Wikimania is not a good value
> proposition.
> > The USA and Britain is overrepresented as it is.
> > Thanks,
> >  GerardM
> >
> > On 10 February 2016 at 10:13, Pine W  wrote:
> >
> > > From a US perspective, even here in the global north we have plenty of
> > > students and middle-class participants for whom $1500 in travel, food
> and
> > > lodging plus 5 days away from work, family, or school amounts to a
> > > significant or impossible sacrifice.
> > >
> > > Perhaps someone could tell us the statistics for how many people have
> > > attended Wikimania each year who were not WMF employees, FDC or WMF
> Board
> > > members, scholarship recipients, or financially sponsored by WMF
> > affiliates
> > > or WEF. Of those people who pay 100% of their own costs plus the cost
> of
> > > admission tickets, my guess is that many live within a day's travel
> time
> > by
> > > train, car, or bus.
> > >
> > > I would hypothesize that thematic conferences also have a low
> percentage
> > of
> > > people who pay 100% of their own costs, but that regional conferences
> > which
> > > have lower travel costs for the average attendee receive modestly
> higher
> > > percentages of unsubsidized attendance.
> > >
> > > It seems to me that WMF finacial support for conferences, including
> > > regional and thematic conferences, will continue to be the norm.
> > >
> > > Whether $1 million is appropriate for Wikimania and whether a more
> modest
> > > budget would be appropriate and feasable are different questions that
> > merit
> > > careful reflection.
> > >
> > > Pine
> > > ___
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > 
> > >
> > 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Reducing the net cost of Wikimania

2016-02-10 Thread Milos Rancic
On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 6:06 AM, Samuel Klein  wrote:
> I found this the most interesting part of the recent IdeaLab discussion
> about changing the Wikimania framework.
>   https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IdeaLab/Towards_a_New_Wikimania
>
>   "*The total spend by WMF for Wikimania 2014 in London and 2015 in Mexico,
> including all travel, accommodations, scholarships, staff support and
> direct conference expenses, was ~$1 million USD*"
>
> This is a pity. Small grants to support a con is one thing, but this is too
> much.
>
> Please let's stop encouraging conferences that do not cover their own
> costs. A good conference series pays for itself, including its scholarship
> pool. There are plenty of communities our size or larger with wonderful,
> regular conferences of hundreds or thousands of people, which break even or
> turn a small profit.
>
> FUDCons are an interesting case in point.  As I understand it, there was a
> time when RedHat basically sponsored the events, with scholarships for all
> active contributors and extensive grants. This was ok, but skewed
> participation.  Then the lavish sponsorship stopped. Attendance dropped;
> community members felt unloved. Then after a time, this passed, and
> everyone attended again. (Perhaps a core Fedora contributor can describe
> this more accurately!)

I have to say I totally disagree with your approach because of a
number of issues:

* Wikimedia movement is not consisted [solely] of highly paid folk
from the tech industry.
* Wikimania is not an opportunity to find a job or to make business contacts.
* Wikimedia movement is not the group of enthusiasts gathering because
of their hobby, mostly relevant just to themselves.
* Wikimedia movement is consisted of real people, not just of servers
and bytes. Consequently, financially independent Wikimedia
stakeholders (WMF and at least one chapter) should spend money not
just on servers and bytes, but on people, as well.
* While I am not against market per se, our core shouldn't be for
sale. I am sure there are the ways how to make Wikimania more
sustainable, but there are numerous things which shouldn't be done and
it has to be carefully analyzed. (One of those being "we can't support
that much of people".)
* It's expensive to have a global movement. It will be just more
expensive. That's the fact, not something to be negotiated.
* Going into contraction without being inside of the financial crisis
is something very common inside of the Wikimedia movement and utterly
stupid.

-- 
Milos

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Reducing the net cost of Wikimania

2016-02-10 Thread Andrew Lih
Béria L,

Yes, I was heartened to see that the formula had changed in 2015. But the
complexity of the algorithm made it hard to discern what the eventual
impact and numbers were for US-based editors. If you have good stats on
this, I’d appreciate a pointer.

Again, I agree that Wikimania should have massive outreach goal with the
bulk of the scholarships should be used to recruit new key members to our
community and evangelizing the mission outside the US. When I was based in
Asia, I was a big advocate for Wikimania being a way to engage new language
groups.

However, I wanted to push back against the oft-heard refrain that the US is
“overly subsidized” when in fact most metrics show this is not the case.

Thanks!
-Andrew

On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 11:27 AM, Béria Lima  wrote:

> Hi Andrew,
>
> *For the last few years I’ve held my tongue as American applicants get a
> > fraction of 10% of all the funding for Wikimania scholarships.*
> >
>
> Actually you are looking at the old numbers. Both Wikimanias 2015 and 2016
> uses a new method of selection. Now, the Global North*[1]  *has 25% of all
> scholarships, and the Global South*[2]* has 75%. Now that you have to
> compete with most of the rich countries in the world. And is not all: If
> you get into the final 10% of the "cutoff",your place may be taken away by
> a woman (or transgender) or a Latino, since that is the policy now*[3]*.
>
> And I for one agree with the new policy. The effort made by a European (or
> American, or Canadian) to travel to a Wikimania, is something like one
> month of salary. For a woman from the same place will probably be 2 months
> (pay gap at its finest!) and for a Latino, African, or Asiatic the effort
> starts at 6 months and go on to even a decade*[4]* (A full decade of your
> salary to go to Wikimania).
>
> So no, I don't feel sorry that most of the scholarships don't go to
> Americans, I'm not denying that there is poor people in rich countries but
> the level of poverty is *way* too different.
>
> ​
> Béria L
> ​. de Rodríguez (a Latino Woman )
>
> ___
> *References:*
>
> [1]: Australia, Canada, Israel, Hong Kong, Macau, New Zealand, Japan,
> Singapore, South Korea, Taiwan, the United States and all of Europe
> (including Russia, but excluding Turkey) (source
> )
> [2]: Asia (with the exception of Japan, Hong Kong, Macau, Singapore, South
> Korea and Taiwan), Turkey, Central America, South America, Mexico, Africa,
> and the Middle East (with the exception of Israel) (source
> )
> [3]: For applicants within 10% of the "cutoff", preference will be* first*
> given to the* non-male* applicant, and *secondary* preference to applicants
> from* Latin America*.(source
> 
> -
> enfasis added by me)
> [4]: Venezuela for example has a exchange rate Bolivar-US dolar of 1026 BSF
> to 1 dolar. Their average salary is 9,500 BSF (about $ 9,00) at that pace
> their probability to attend Wikimania on their own tends to zero. (source
> for the exchange rate )
>
> _
>
> *​​**Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter
> livre acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. Ajude-nos a
> construir esse sonho.*
>
> 2016-02-10 13:43 GMT-02:00 Andrew Lih :
>
> > GerardM,
> >
> > As much as I agree with you on many things related to Wikimania, your
> > statement about en.wp and USA being “over subsidized” is off base.
> >
> > For the last few years I’ve held my tongue as American applicants get a
> > fraction of 10% of all the funding for Wikimania scholarships. That’s
> > because 10% is allocated to all of North America, so US based folks
> compete
> > with Canadians for that small slice of the pie. Indeed, key community
> > members from the US could not afford to go to Wikimania, and did not,
> > because of the limited funding. We also do not have a strong chapter
> system
> > to make up for that shortcoming, where European chapters can, and do,
> > underwrite their local members with other funds.
> >
> > I am not against the bulk of the scholarship money going to
> > underrepresented developing markets and giving new voices a chance to
> > attend. But I wanted to dispel the myth that Americans are always gorging
> > at the trough.
> >
> >
> >
> https://wikimania2013.wikimedia.org/wiki/Scholarships#Scholarship_selection_process
> > https://wikimania2014.wikimedia.org/wiki/Scholarships#Selection_process
> >
> >
> > -Andrew
> >
> > On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 6:49 AM, Gerard Meijssen <
> > gerard.meijs...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hoi,
> > > Pine with all due respect, the USA is not the problem and English
> > Wikipedia
> > > has been overly subsidised, given way too much attention. Indeed having
> > > more people from the USA attend Wikimania is 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Reducing the net cost of Wikimania

2016-02-10 Thread Pharos
Hi Wikimedians,

The "chapter system" in the US and North America is a work in progress.

In addition to the two full regional chapters (New York City - where I am,
and Washington, DC), there are also usergroups for the New England,
Cascadia/Northwest, and North Carolina Triangle regions, with other groups
still in the process of formation.

There is a historical difference from the large-budget Western European
chapters and the US situation, which has been more grassroots and never
participated in things like fundraiser payment-sharing, and the funding for
WMF HQ in San Francisco indeed shouldn't be conflated with funding of US
volunteer-based activities.

If anyone else is interested in organizing regionally in any part of the US
/ North America, feel free to get in touch; Wikimedia NYC and others would
be very glad to help you :)

Thanks,
Pharos

On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 11:15 AM, Robert Fernandez 
wrote:

> The US may be too geographically spread out to develop a robust chapter
> system.  We have vibrant chapters in a few dense population areas.
> Wikimedia District of Columbia is particularly awesome.  But for most US
> editors there isn't a critical mass of editors in some areas.  Often we
> work with with chapters that are geographically distant.  There's at least
> two of us on the Board of Directors of WMDC who don't live particularly
> close to DC.
>
> On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 11:00 AM, Jane Darnell  wrote:
>
> > "We also do not have a strong chapter system"
> >
> > This has always puzzled me, because I am a firm believer in the chapter
> > system, despite its faults and limitations. Isn't it time to address this
> > for the more active areas of the USA?
> >
> > On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 10:43 AM, Andrew Lih 
> wrote:
> >
> > > GerardM,
> > >
> > > As much as I agree with you on many things related to Wikimania, your
> > > statement about en.wp and USA being “over subsidized” is off base.
> > >
> > > For the last few years I’ve held my tongue as American applicants get a
> > > fraction of 10% of all the funding for Wikimania scholarships. That’s
> > > because 10% is allocated to all of North America, so US based folks
> > compete
> > > with Canadians for that small slice of the pie. Indeed, key community
> > > members from the US could not afford to go to Wikimania, and did not,
> > > because of the limited funding. We also do not have a strong chapter
> > system
> > > to make up for that shortcoming, where European chapters can, and do,
> > > underwrite their local members with other funds.
> > >
> > > I am not against the bulk of the scholarship money going to
> > > underrepresented developing markets and giving new voices a chance to
> > > attend. But I wanted to dispel the myth that Americans are always
> gorging
> > > at the trough.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> https://wikimania2013.wikimedia.org/wiki/Scholarships#Scholarship_selection_process
> > >
> https://wikimania2014.wikimedia.org/wiki/Scholarships#Selection_process
> > >
> > >
> > > -Andrew
> > >
> > > On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 6:49 AM, Gerard Meijssen <
> > > gerard.meijs...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hoi,
> > > > Pine with all due respect, the USA is not the problem and English
> > > Wikipedia
> > > > has been overly subsidised, given way too much attention. Indeed
> having
> > > > more people from the USA attend Wikimania is not a good value
> > > proposition.
> > > > The USA and Britain is overrepresented as it is.
> > > > Thanks,
> > > >  GerardM
> > > >
> > > > On 10 February 2016 at 10:13, Pine W  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > From a US perspective, even here in the global north we have plenty
> > of
> > > > > students and middle-class participants for whom $1500 in travel,
> food
> > > and
> > > > > lodging plus 5 days away from work, family, or school amounts to a
> > > > > significant or impossible sacrifice.
> > > > >
> > > > > Perhaps someone could tell us the statistics for how many people
> have
> > > > > attended Wikimania each year who were not WMF employees, FDC or WMF
> > > Board
> > > > > members, scholarship recipients, or financially sponsored by WMF
> > > > affiliates
> > > > > or WEF. Of those people who pay 100% of their own costs plus the
> cost
> > > of
> > > > > admission tickets, my guess is that many live within a day's travel
> > > time
> > > > by
> > > > > train, car, or bus.
> > > > >
> > > > > I would hypothesize that thematic conferences also have a low
> > > percentage
> > > > of
> > > > > people who pay 100% of their own costs, but that regional
> conferences
> > > > which
> > > > > have lower travel costs for the average attendee receive modestly
> > > higher
> > > > > percentages of unsubsidized attendance.
> > > > >
> > > > > It seems to me that WMF finacial support for conferences, including
> > > > > regional and thematic conferences, will continue to be the norm.
> > > > >
> > > > > Whether $1 million is 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Reducing the net cost of Wikimania

2016-02-10 Thread Robert Fernandez
I just want to clarify something.  I apologize in advance for being
pedantic.

In the US the term Latino is also applied to those of us who live in the
United States who have cultural and ethnic ties to Latin America.  Based on
my reading of the selection process those Latinos would not be preferred
applicants.

On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 11:27 AM, Béria Lima  wrote:

> Hi Andrew,
>
> *For the last few years I’ve held my tongue as American applicants get a
> > fraction of 10% of all the funding for Wikimania scholarships.*
> >
>
> Actually you are looking at the old numbers. Both Wikimanias 2015 and 2016
> uses a new method of selection. Now, the Global North*[1]  *has 25% of all
> scholarships, and the Global South*[2]* has 75%. Now that you have to
> compete with most of the rich countries in the world. And is not all: If
> you get into the final 10% of the "cutoff",your place may be taken away by
> a woman (or transgender) or a Latino, since that is the policy now*[3]*.
>
> And I for one agree with the new policy. The effort made by a European (or
> American, or Canadian) to travel to a Wikimania, is something like one
> month of salary. For a woman from the same place will probably be 2 months
> (pay gap at its finest!) and for a Latino, African, or Asiatic the effort
> starts at 6 months and go on to even a decade*[4]* (A full decade of your
> salary to go to Wikimania).
>
> So no, I don't feel sorry that most of the scholarships don't go to
> Americans, I'm not denying that there is poor people in rich countries but
> the level of poverty is *way* too different.
>
> ​
> Béria L
> ​. de Rodríguez (a Latino Woman )
>
> ___
> *References:*
>
> [1]: Australia, Canada, Israel, Hong Kong, Macau, New Zealand, Japan,
> Singapore, South Korea, Taiwan, the United States and all of Europe
> (including Russia, but excluding Turkey) (source
> )
> [2]: Asia (with the exception of Japan, Hong Kong, Macau, Singapore, South
> Korea and Taiwan), Turkey, Central America, South America, Mexico, Africa,
> and the Middle East (with the exception of Israel) (source
> )
> [3]: For applicants within 10% of the "cutoff", preference will be* first*
> given to the* non-male* applicant, and *secondary* preference to applicants
> from* Latin America*.(source
> 
> -
> enfasis added by me)
> [4]: Venezuela for example has a exchange rate Bolivar-US dolar of 1026 BSF
> to 1 dolar. Their average salary is 9,500 BSF (about $ 9,00) at that pace
> their probability to attend Wikimania on their own tends to zero. (source
> for the exchange rate )
>
> _
>
> *​​**Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter
> livre acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. Ajude-nos a
> construir esse sonho.*
>
> 2016-02-10 13:43 GMT-02:00 Andrew Lih :
>
> > GerardM,
> >
> > As much as I agree with you on many things related to Wikimania, your
> > statement about en.wp and USA being “over subsidized” is off base.
> >
> > For the last few years I’ve held my tongue as American applicants get a
> > fraction of 10% of all the funding for Wikimania scholarships. That’s
> > because 10% is allocated to all of North America, so US based folks
> compete
> > with Canadians for that small slice of the pie. Indeed, key community
> > members from the US could not afford to go to Wikimania, and did not,
> > because of the limited funding. We also do not have a strong chapter
> system
> > to make up for that shortcoming, where European chapters can, and do,
> > underwrite their local members with other funds.
> >
> > I am not against the bulk of the scholarship money going to
> > underrepresented developing markets and giving new voices a chance to
> > attend. But I wanted to dispel the myth that Americans are always gorging
> > at the trough.
> >
> >
> >
> https://wikimania2013.wikimedia.org/wiki/Scholarships#Scholarship_selection_process
> > https://wikimania2014.wikimedia.org/wiki/Scholarships#Selection_process
> >
> >
> > -Andrew
> >
> > On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 6:49 AM, Gerard Meijssen <
> > gerard.meijs...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hoi,
> > > Pine with all due respect, the USA is not the problem and English
> > Wikipedia
> > > has been overly subsidised, given way too much attention. Indeed having
> > > more people from the USA attend Wikimania is not a good value
> > proposition.
> > > The USA and Britain is overrepresented as it is.
> > > Thanks,
> > >  GerardM
> > >
> > > On 10 February 2016 at 10:13, Pine W  wrote:
> > >
> > > > From a US perspective, even here in the global north we have plenty
> of
> > > > students and middle-class participants for whom $1500 in travel, food
> > and
> > > > lodging plus 5 days away from work, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Reducing the net cost of Wikimania

2016-02-10 Thread Samuel Klein
Itzik writes:

> If we want to talk about the cost of Wikimania it will be great if the
WMF and the local team will share the costs.
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2014/Budget
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2015/Budget
> Maybe I missed something, but it's strange that such discussion takes
place without a real budget breakdown.
> To summarize 2 huge event to "1$ million USD" does not make sense.

Agreed 1million%.  It would be important to see a rough cost breakdown, &
compare that to the best-budgeted Wikimanias.


On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 9:52 AM, Tomasz Ganicz  wrote:

> 2016-02-10 6:06 GMT+01:00 Samuel Klein :
>
> > FUDCons
>
> Also it is hard to compare Wikimanias with FUDCons as it is
> a) much  smaller (usually bo more than 200 attendees)
> b) divided by regions - for example in 2015 there were 3 FUDCons
> (Argentina, India, Spain) and 2 Flocks (NY and Kraków) -  so they are
> rather like our Iberecop or CEE meetings than the global conferences.
>

Thanks.  Similar to regional events perhaps, not Wikimania.  Still worth
comparing budgets perhaps, if available.

But I was wondering about the trend over time: whether extensive funding
during the RedHat days made the events less useful, in the years after that
funding was reduced.



> And also Fedora developers have many potential sources of external funding
> - mainly from IT companies which uses free software and want to apply for
> their specific needs and for whom they quite often work.
>

True.  But attendees to GLAM or education conferences also tend to have
many potential sources of funding - mainly from archives or educational or
technical companies who curate knowledge or develop education tools. And we
have IT industry partners who are similarly willing to support Wikimanias.
Not entirely dissimilar.


> But anyway, Fedora offers scholarships for attendees, see:
>

Yes, wiki conferences should as well - that part of conference funding is
important.  Even early Wikimanias with almost no WMF support had
significant scholarship pools.

S
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Reducing the net cost of Wikimania

2016-02-10 Thread Sydney Poore
February is a very busy month with record number of events planned through
out the United States.

Additionally, The Wiki Ed Foundation works with university based education
programs including parts of the United States outside regions covered by
the U.S. Chapters and User groups.

So, although we are doing it differently in the U.S. than other parts of
the whole, it seems to be working pretty well today and has the potential
to grow as more areas are covered by User Groups.

Sydney

Sydney Poore
User:FloNight
Wikipedian in Residence
at Cochrane Collaboration

On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 12:51 PM, Pharos 
wrote:

> Hi Wikimedians,
>
> The "chapter system" in the US and North America is a work in progress.
>
> In addition to the two full regional chapters (New York City - where I am,
> and Washington, DC), there are also usergroups for the New England,
> Cascadia/Northwest, and North Carolina Triangle regions, with other groups
> still in the process of formation.
>
> There is a historical difference from the large-budget Western European
> chapters and the US situation, which has been more grassroots and never
> participated in things like fundraiser payment-sharing, and the funding for
> WMF HQ in San Francisco indeed shouldn't be conflated with funding of US
> volunteer-based activities.
>
> If anyone else is interested in organizing regionally in any part of the US
> / North America, feel free to get in touch; Wikimedia NYC and others would
> be very glad to help you :)
>
> Thanks,
> Pharos
>
> On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 11:15 AM, Robert Fernandez  >
> wrote:
>
> > The US may be too geographically spread out to develop a robust chapter
> > system.  We have vibrant chapters in a few dense population areas.
> > Wikimedia District of Columbia is particularly awesome.  But for most US
> > editors there isn't a critical mass of editors in some areas.  Often we
> > work with with chapters that are geographically distant.  There's at
> least
> > two of us on the Board of Directors of WMDC who don't live particularly
> > close to DC.
> >
> > On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 11:00 AM, Jane Darnell 
> wrote:
> >
> > > "We also do not have a strong chapter system"
> > >
> > > This has always puzzled me, because I am a firm believer in the chapter
> > > system, despite its faults and limitations. Isn't it time to address
> this
> > > for the more active areas of the USA?
> > >
> > > On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 10:43 AM, Andrew Lih 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > GerardM,
> > > >
> > > > As much as I agree with you on many things related to Wikimania, your
> > > > statement about en.wp and USA being “over subsidized” is off base.
> > > >
> > > > For the last few years I’ve held my tongue as American applicants
> get a
> > > > fraction of 10% of all the funding for Wikimania scholarships. That’s
> > > > because 10% is allocated to all of North America, so US based folks
> > > compete
> > > > with Canadians for that small slice of the pie. Indeed, key community
> > > > members from the US could not afford to go to Wikimania, and did not,
> > > > because of the limited funding. We also do not have a strong chapter
> > > system
> > > > to make up for that shortcoming, where European chapters can, and do,
> > > > underwrite their local members with other funds.
> > > >
> > > > I am not against the bulk of the scholarship money going to
> > > > underrepresented developing markets and giving new voices a chance to
> > > > attend. But I wanted to dispel the myth that Americans are always
> > gorging
> > > > at the trough.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://wikimania2013.wikimedia.org/wiki/Scholarships#Scholarship_selection_process
> > > >
> > https://wikimania2014.wikimedia.org/wiki/Scholarships#Selection_process
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -Andrew
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 6:49 AM, Gerard Meijssen <
> > > > gerard.meijs...@gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hoi,
> > > > > Pine with all due respect, the USA is not the problem and English
> > > > Wikipedia
> > > > > has been overly subsidised, given way too much attention. Indeed
> > having
> > > > > more people from the USA attend Wikimania is not a good value
> > > > proposition.
> > > > > The USA and Britain is overrepresented as it is.
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > >  GerardM
> > > > >
> > > > > On 10 February 2016 at 10:13, Pine W  wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > From a US perspective, even here in the global north we have
> plenty
> > > of
> > > > > > students and middle-class participants for whom $1500 in travel,
> > food
> > > > and
> > > > > > lodging plus 5 days away from work, family, or school amounts to
> a
> > > > > > significant or impossible sacrifice.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Perhaps someone could tell us the statistics for how many people
> > have
> > > > > > attended Wikimania each year who were not WMF employees, FDC or
> WMF
> > > > Board

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Reducing the net cost of Wikimania

2016-02-10 Thread Gnangarra
While everyone keeps looking at the cost thats not the question we should
be asking, because even if the costs were reduced to 500,000, 100,00 or
even 10,000 ​that doesnt reflect the value we get from the in person
contacts, the global connections the sharing of experiences, learning of
concepts, even the moral support and reenergization that occurs.  When I
talk to people who have attended Wikimanias nobody says that was a waste of
my time, I learnt nothing, I wish I could get back those 5 days that is a
better indicator of its value to the community.




On 10 February 2016 at 17:13, Pine W  wrote:

> From a US perspective, even here in the global north we have plenty of
> students and middle-class participants for whom $1500 in travel, food and
> lodging plus 5 days away from work, family, or school amounts to a
> significant or impossible sacrifice.
>
> Perhaps someone could tell us the statistics for how many people have
> attended Wikimania each year who were not WMF employees, FDC or WMF Board
> members, scholarship recipients, or financially sponsored by WMF affiliates
> or WEF. Of those people who pay 100% of their own costs plus the cost of
> admission tickets, my guess is that many live within a day's travel time by
> train, car, or bus.
>
> I would hypothesize that thematic conferences also have a low percentage of
> people who pay 100% of their own costs, but that regional conferences which
> have lower travel costs for the average attendee receive modestly higher
> percentages of unsubsidized attendance.
>
> It seems to me that WMF finacial support for conferences, including
> regional and thematic conferences, will continue to be the norm.
>
> Whether $1 million is appropriate for Wikimania and whether a more modest
> budget would be appropriate and feasable are different questions that merit
> careful reflection.
>
> Pine
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>



-- 
GN.
President Wikimedia Australia
WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Reducing the net cost of Wikimania

2016-02-10 Thread Pine W
From a US perspective, even here in the global north we have plenty of
students and middle-class participants for whom $1500 in travel, food and
lodging plus 5 days away from work, family, or school amounts to a
significant or impossible sacrifice.

Perhaps someone could tell us the statistics for how many people have
attended Wikimania each year who were not WMF employees, FDC or WMF Board
members, scholarship recipients, or financially sponsored by WMF affiliates
or WEF. Of those people who pay 100% of their own costs plus the cost of
admission tickets, my guess is that many live within a day's travel time by
train, car, or bus.

I would hypothesize that thematic conferences also have a low percentage of
people who pay 100% of their own costs, but that regional conferences which
have lower travel costs for the average attendee receive modestly higher
percentages of unsubsidized attendance.

It seems to me that WMF finacial support for conferences, including
regional and thematic conferences, will continue to be the norm.

Whether $1 million is appropriate for Wikimania and whether a more modest
budget would be appropriate and feasable are different questions that merit
careful reflection.

Pine
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Reducing the net cost of Wikimania

2016-02-10 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
To quote a Wikipedia maxim .. "citation needed".  It is one thing to say
that something is costly and, it is. It is another to say that Wikimania is
expensive. It is expensive when it does not provide a value relative to
costs.

When you compare with Red Hat, you talk about professional people in
relation to Red Hat. This is not what our community is. They are volunteers
and while some have the money to pay their own way, this is certainly
dependant on where people are from. Given that we suck at supporting the
"global south", I am afraid that your thinking is in terms of money and not
in terms of value and lost sight what our community is.

The comparison with Red Hat and your point is flawed.
Thanks,
   GerardM

On 10 February 2016 at 06:06, Samuel Klein  wrote:

> I found this the most interesting part of the recent IdeaLab discussion
> about changing the Wikimania framework.
>   https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IdeaLab/Towards_a_New_Wikimania
>
>   "*The total spend by WMF for Wikimania 2014 in London and 2015 in Mexico,
> including all travel, accommodations, scholarships, staff support and
> direct conference expenses, was ~$1 million USD*"
>
> This is a pity. Small grants to support a con is one thing, but this is too
> much.
>
> Please let's stop encouraging conferences that do not cover their own
> costs. A good conference series pays for itself, including its scholarship
> pool. There are plenty of communities our size or larger with wonderful,
> regular conferences of hundreds or thousands of people, which break even or
> turn a small profit.
>
> FUDCons are an interesting case in point.  As I understand it, there was a
> time when RedHat basically sponsored the events, with scholarships for all
> active contributors and extensive grants. This was ok, but skewed
> participation.  Then the lavish sponsorship stopped. Attendance dropped;
> community members felt unloved. Then after a time, this passed, and
> everyone attended again. (Perhaps a core Fedora contributor can describe
> this more accurately!)
>
> SJ
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Reducing the net cost of Wikimania

2016-02-10 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
Pine with all due respect, the USA is not the problem and English Wikipedia
has been overly subsidised, given way too much attention. Indeed having
more people from the USA attend Wikimania is not a good value proposition.
The USA and Britain is overrepresented as it is.
Thanks,
 GerardM

On 10 February 2016 at 10:13, Pine W  wrote:

> From a US perspective, even here in the global north we have plenty of
> students and middle-class participants for whom $1500 in travel, food and
> lodging plus 5 days away from work, family, or school amounts to a
> significant or impossible sacrifice.
>
> Perhaps someone could tell us the statistics for how many people have
> attended Wikimania each year who were not WMF employees, FDC or WMF Board
> members, scholarship recipients, or financially sponsored by WMF affiliates
> or WEF. Of those people who pay 100% of their own costs plus the cost of
> admission tickets, my guess is that many live within a day's travel time by
> train, car, or bus.
>
> I would hypothesize that thematic conferences also have a low percentage of
> people who pay 100% of their own costs, but that regional conferences which
> have lower travel costs for the average attendee receive modestly higher
> percentages of unsubsidized attendance.
>
> It seems to me that WMF finacial support for conferences, including
> regional and thematic conferences, will continue to be the norm.
>
> Whether $1 million is appropriate for Wikimania and whether a more modest
> budget would be appropriate and feasable are different questions that merit
> careful reflection.
>
> Pine
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Reducing the net cost of Wikimania

2016-02-10 Thread John Mark Vandenberg
On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 2:28 AM, Itzik - Wikimedia Israel
 wrote:
> If we want to talk about the cost of Wikimania it will be great if the WMF
> and the local team will share the costs.
>
> Until now Wikimania London didn't published anything:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2014/Budget
>
> And also Mexico:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2015/Budget
>
> Maybe I missed something, but it's strange that such discussion takes place
> without a real budget breakdown. To summarize 2 huge event to "1$ million
> USD" does not make sense.

I agree.  Without public data, how can there be an informed public consultation.

I've asked for similar data at:

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:IdeaLab/Towards_a_New_Wikimania#Analysis_on_repeat_funded_attendees

-- 
John Vandenberg

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[Wikimedia-l] Reducing the net cost of Wikimania

2016-02-09 Thread Samuel Klein
I found this the most interesting part of the recent IdeaLab discussion
about changing the Wikimania framework.
  https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IdeaLab/Towards_a_New_Wikimania

  "*The total spend by WMF for Wikimania 2014 in London and 2015 in Mexico,
including all travel, accommodations, scholarships, staff support and
direct conference expenses, was ~$1 million USD*"

This is a pity. Small grants to support a con is one thing, but this is too
much.

Please let's stop encouraging conferences that do not cover their own
costs. A good conference series pays for itself, including its scholarship
pool. There are plenty of communities our size or larger with wonderful,
regular conferences of hundreds or thousands of people, which break even or
turn a small profit.

FUDCons are an interesting case in point.  As I understand it, there was a
time when RedHat basically sponsored the events, with scholarships for all
active contributors and extensive grants. This was ok, but skewed
participation.  Then the lavish sponsorship stopped. Attendance dropped;
community members felt unloved. Then after a time, this passed, and
everyone attended again. (Perhaps a core Fedora contributor can describe
this more accurately!)

SJ
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