Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-23 Thread Martijn Hoekstra
Jussi, I'm not finding the post you are replying too, what's the context here? On Sat, Jun 23, 2012 at 3:29 AM, Jussi-Ville Heiskanen cimonav...@gmail.com wrote: The core problem here is that the Board is not alive and well. The Board of Trustees is dead in their shoes. What precisely are they

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-22 Thread Jussi-Ville Heiskanen
The core problem here is that the Board is not alive and well. The Board of Trustees is dead in their shoes. What precisely are they *Trustees* of? -- -- Jussi-Ville Heiskanen, ~ [[User:Cimon Avaro]] ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-21 Thread Seth Finkelstein
Reply-To: References: CAHRTtW_LoeHFcPb6vUmw7BwOqJECuvSR1-gqNWcC7kmZ=nf...@mail.gmail.com In-Reply-To: CAHRTtW_LoeHFcPb6vUmw7BwOqJECuvSR1-gqNWcC7kmZ=nf...@mail.gmail.com Andreas Kolbe As Seth Finkelstein pointed out the other day, there is opposition to pornography both from the right, on a

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-21 Thread Todd Allen
On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 4:46 PM, Anthony wikim...@inbox.org wrote: On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 6:03 PM, Todd Allen toddmal...@gmail.com wrote: {{sofixit}}, just like any area with NPOV/undue weight issues. The next day someone will fix it back. - Douglas Hofstadter Such is the nature of this

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-21 Thread Anthony
On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 10:01 AM, Todd Allen toddmal...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 4:46 PM, Anthony wikim...@inbox.org wrote: On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 6:03 PM, Todd Allen toddmal...@gmail.com wrote: {{sofixit}}, just like any area with NPOV/undue weight issues. The next day

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-21 Thread Todd Allen
On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 10:18 AM, Anthony wikim...@inbox.org wrote: On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 10:01 AM, Todd Allen toddmal...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 4:46 PM, Anthony wikim...@inbox.org wrote: On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 6:03 PM, Todd Allen toddmal...@gmail.com wrote: {{sofixit}},

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-21 Thread Todd Allen
On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 10:55 AM, Anthony wikim...@inbox.org wrote: On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 12:28 PM, Todd Allen toddmal...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 10:18 AM, Anthony wikim...@inbox.org wrote: On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 10:01 AM, Todd Allen toddmal...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jun

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-21 Thread Anthony
On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 1:20 PM, Todd Allen toddmal...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 10:55 AM, Anthony wikim...@inbox.org wrote: Heh.  Sorry, I have to laugh any time I hear a...person heavily versed in Wikipedia-speak...use the word consensus. That's the way the project works. You

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-21 Thread Andreas Kolbe
Child porn is illegal, that's been upheld by the Supreme Court repeatedly, end of discussion. If 2257 were similarly upheld to apply even in circumstances of educational/artistic work, I suppose we'd similarly have to follow it like it or not, but it is untested in such areas, and I suspect

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-21 Thread Yann Forget
2012/6/21 Andreas Kolbe jayen...@gmail.com: Incidentally, a Commons copyright specialist is currently being banned for copyright specialist? Is this supposed to be a joke? A 4th degree sargasm? An alien way of defining a specialist? Or anything else? Yann (cut nonsense rethoric about the PK

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-21 Thread Anthony
On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 2:10 PM, Andreas Kolbe jayen...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 6:46 PM, Anthony wikim...@inbox.org wrote: Many images on Wikipedia have been taken without the subject's genuine consent.  So surely that isn't the issue. Many are transferred to Commons from

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-21 Thread Anthony
On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 2:22 PM, Anthony wikim...@inbox.org wrote: Secondly, I'm not talking just about sexually explicit photos. Wikipedia has photos of people being or about to be [[behead]]ed, [[torture]]d, [[kidnap]]ped, [[assassination]]ed, etc.  I checked, and there's no photograph of

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-21 Thread Yann Forget
2012/6/21 Andreas Kolbe jayen...@gmail.com: Incidentally, a Commons copyright specialist is currently being banned for nominating admins' copyright violations for deletion, even though the vast majority of his deletions have always turned out to be correct ... the administrators are feeling

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-21 Thread Todd Allen
On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 12:10 PM, Andreas Kolbe jayen...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 6:46 PM, Anthony wikim...@inbox.org wrote: Many images on Wikipedia have been taken without the subject's genuine consent.  So surely that isn't the issue. Many are transferred to Commons from

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-21 Thread Andreas Kolbe
On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 7:22 PM, Anthony wikim...@inbox.org wrote: Well, first of all, why? Secondly, I'm not talking just about sexually explicit photos. Wikipedia has photos of people being or about to be [[behead]]ed, [[torture]]d, [[kidnap]]ped, [[assassination]]ed, etc. I checked, and

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-21 Thread Anthony
On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 3:38 PM, Andreas Kolbe jayen...@gmail.com wrote: Well, Todd has certainly said on-wiki in the past that he would not see a problem in Wikipedia using a video of rape to illustrate an article on the topic, provided it were appropriately licensed and did not raise privacy

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-21 Thread Tobias Oelgarte
Am 21.06.2012 21:55, schrieb Andreas Kolbe: On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 7:50 PM, Todd Allentoddmal...@gmail.com wrote: This thread isn't about copyvios, and I don't want to get too far afield, but I think it does kind of show the thought process here sometimes. From my read of the discussions

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-21 Thread David Gerard
On 21 June 2012 20:38, Andreas Kolbe jayen...@gmail.com wrote: Well, Todd has certainly said on-wiki in the past that he would not see a problem in Wikipedia using a video of rape to illustrate an article on the topic, provided it were appropriately licensed and did not raise privacy concerns

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-21 Thread Tobias Oelgarte
Am 21.06.2012 22:24, schrieb Anthony: On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 3:38 PM, Andreas Kolbejayen...@gmail.com wrote: Well, Todd has certainly said on-wiki in the past that he would not see a problem in Wikipedia using a video of rape to illustrate an article on the topic, provided it were

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-21 Thread Anthony
On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 4:44 PM, Tobias Oelgarte tobias.oelga...@googlemail.com wrote: Can you point me to any examples of real child abuse, sexual abuse or of child sexual abuse? On Wikipedia? On Commons? Anywhere? For child sexual abuse, I was referring mainly to the Virgin Killer image

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-21 Thread Todd Allen
On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 1:38 PM, Andreas Kolbe jayen...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 7:22 PM, Anthony wikim...@inbox.org wrote: Well, first of all, why? Secondly, I'm not talking just about sexually explicit photos. Wikipedia has photos of people being or about to be

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-21 Thread Anthony
On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 5:10 PM, Todd Allen toddmal...@gmail.com wrote: But in practice, we do have photos of victims at articles such as [[Rape of Nanking]] and [[Holocaust]]. Some of those photos are extremely disturbing. That's because the articles are about extremely disturbing subjects.

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-21 Thread Tobias Oelgarte
Am 21.06.2012 22:51, schrieb Anthony: On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 4:44 PM, Tobias Oelgarte tobias.oelga...@googlemail.com wrote: Can you point me to any examples of real child abuse, sexual abuse or of child sexual abuse? On Wikipedia? On Commons? Anywhere? Do i really need to answer this

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-21 Thread Tobias Oelgarte
Am 22.06.2012 00:02, schrieb Anthony: On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 5:48 PM, Tobias Oelgarte tobias.oelga...@googlemail.com wrote: Am 21.06.2012 22:51, schrieb Anthony: On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 4:44 PM, Tobias Oelgarte tobias.oelga...@googlemail.comwrote: Can you point me to any examples of

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-21 Thread Andreas Kolbe
On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 10:10 PM, Todd Allen toddmal...@gmail.com wrote: That was a highly theoretical scenario (and one you brought up for that reason, as I recall.) But in practice, we do have photos of victims at articles such as [[Rape of Nanking]] and [[Holocaust]]. Some of those photos

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-20 Thread Anthony
On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 1:06 AM, Todd Allen toddmal...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 9:23 PM, Anthony wikim...@inbox.org wrote: On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 1:52 PM, Todd Allen toddmal...@gmail.com wrote: My middle one can very briefly go online alone to a few sites I've already agreed

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-20 Thread Andreas Kolbe
On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 6:06 AM, Todd Allen toddmal...@gmail.com wrote: Yes, actually, along with several other educational ones, some with children's games, her school website, etc. The chances that she would randomly stumble across a sexual image on Wikipedia are -vanishingly- slim, ...

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-20 Thread Todd Allen
On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 1:57 PM, Andreas Kolbe jayen...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 6:06 AM, Todd Allen toddmal...@gmail.com wrote: Yes, actually, along with several other educational ones, some with children's games, her school website, etc. The chances that she would randomly

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-20 Thread Anthony
On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 6:03 PM, Todd Allen toddmal...@gmail.com wrote: {{sofixit}}, just like any area with NPOV/undue weight issues. The next day someone will fix it back. - Douglas Hofstadter Good for him. Care to summarize his argument? I don't particularly care to watch his video, or for

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-19 Thread Andreas Kolbe
On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 3:16 PM, Tobias Oelgarte tobias.oelga...@googlemail.com wrote: Am 18.06.2012 15:06, schrieb Thomas Morton: I don't think that we need this argument since the filter can't replace parents anyway. But it is a constant part of the discussions with various exaggerated

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-19 Thread Andreas Kolbe
On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 4:18 PM, Tobias Oelgarte tobias.oelga...@googlemail.com wrote: Am 18.06.2012 16:31, schrieb Thomas Morton: We don't have much data on what our readers want; but a not insignificant portion of them, at least, are concerned with controversial images (nudity, Mohammed,

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-19 Thread Todd Allen
On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 11:22 AM, Andreas Kolbe jayen...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 3:16 PM, Tobias Oelgarte tobias.oelga...@googlemail.com wrote: Am 18.06.2012 15:06, schrieb Thomas Morton: I don't think that we need this argument since the filter can't replace parents

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-19 Thread Anthony
On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 1:52 PM, Todd Allen toddmal...@gmail.com wrote: My middle one can very briefly go online alone to a few sites I've already agreed to, and I check up on her a lot. Is Wikipedia one of those few sites? But the whole point is, that's -my- job, not anyone else's, just

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-19 Thread Todd Allen
On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 9:23 PM, Anthony wikim...@inbox.org wrote: On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 1:52 PM, Todd Allen toddmal...@gmail.com wrote: My middle one can very briefly go online alone to a few sites I've already agreed to, and I check up on her a lot. Is Wikipedia one of those few sites?

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-18 Thread Tom Morris
On Monday, 18 June 2012 at 02:44, Tobias Oelgarte wrote: Every stupid bot could do this. There is no running out of the box solution at the moment, but the effort to set up something like this would be minimal compared to anything else. I would say that Citizendium failed because they did

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-18 Thread David Gerard
On 18 June 2012 08:00, Tom Morris t...@tommorris.org wrote: {{sofixit}} If all the people in favour of filters had spent their time building them rather than arguing about them, we would have had a wide array of different solutions, without any politics or drama. The problem there is the

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-18 Thread Tobias Oelgarte
Am 18.06.2012 09:21, schrieb David Gerard: On 18 June 2012 08:00, Tom Morrist...@tommorris.org wrote: {{sofixit}} If all the people in favour of filters had spent their time building them rather than arguing about them, we would have had a wide array of different solutions, without any

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-18 Thread Thomas Morton
On 18 June 2012 12:39, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: On 18 June 2012 12:29, Tobias Oelgarte tobias.oelga...@googlemail.com wrote: I guess Tom misunderstood my comment. I wrote down a simple plan how an external solution could work and how to minimize the effort to maintain it.

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-18 Thread David Gerard
On 18 June 2012 12:41, Thomas Morton morton.tho...@googlemail.com wrote: On 18 June 2012 12:39, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: The Board acted according to the Harris report, which just said to do it on the site itself:

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-18 Thread Thomas Morton
On 18 June 2012 12:42, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: On 18 June 2012 12:41, Thomas Morton morton.tho...@googlemail.com wrote: On 18 June 2012 12:39, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: The Board acted according to the Harris report, which just said to do it on the site itself:

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-18 Thread Tobias Oelgarte
Am 18.06.2012 13:52, schrieb Thomas Morton: On 18 June 2012 08:00, Tom Morrist...@tommorris.org wrote: On Monday, 18 June 2012 at 02:44, Tobias Oelgarte wrote: Every stupid bot could do this. There is no running out of the box solution at the moment, but the effort to set up something like

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-18 Thread Thomas Morton
It is not convincing since it interferes with the work of our editors that aren't interested in such a feature. Seems unlikely. Although please feel to expand on this with specifics. If we tag images inside the project itself then we impose our judgment onto it, while ignoring or

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-18 Thread Tobias Oelgarte
Am 18.06.2012 15:06, schrieb Thomas Morton: It is not convincing since it interferes with the work of our editors that aren't interested in such a feature. Seems unlikely. Although please feel to expand on this with specifics. Any tagging by non neutral definitions would interfere with

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-18 Thread Thomas Morton
On 18 June 2012 15:16, Tobias Oelgarte tobias.oelga...@googlemail.comwrote: Am 18.06.2012 15:06, schrieb Thomas Morton: It is not convincing since it interferes with the work of our editors that aren't interested in such a feature. Seems unlikely. Although please feel to expand on this

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-18 Thread James Salsman
If all the people in favour of filters had spent their time building them rather than arguing about them, we would have had a wide array of different solutions, without any politics or drama. That said, if people want to filter Wikipedia, a client-side solution rather than a filtered mirror

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-18 Thread Anthony
On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 9:25 AM, Tobias Oelgarte tobias.oelga...@googlemail.com wrote: Am 18.06.2012 14:49, schrieb Anthony: Have you ever tried to do this?  It's not as easy as you are making it sound, at least it wasn't as of a few years ago, because Mediawiki is tightly coupled to the

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-18 Thread Tobias Oelgarte
Am 19.06.2012 01:39, schrieb Anthony: On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 9:25 AM, Tobias Oelgarte tobias.oelga...@googlemail.com wrote: Am 18.06.2012 14:49, schrieb Anthony: Have you ever tried to do this? It's not as easy as you are making it sound, at least it wasn't as of a few years ago, because

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-18 Thread Anthony
On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 9:25 AM, Tobias Oelgarte tobias.oelga...@googlemail.com wrote: Am 18.06.2012 14:49, schrieb Anthony: And considering the heavy use of templates which are Wikipedia-specific, presumably you're going to allow for *some* hand-editing. That would be something else than i

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-17 Thread Federico Leva (Nemo)
Anthony, 17/06/2012 05:05: I still would have been confused. Still am, actually. Did this paragraph have a serious point at all? I hope so, because Wikipedia's porn problem is a serious issue. The point was, I think, that no software is perfect (not even parents' brain) and that parents

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-17 Thread Anthony
On Sun, Jun 17, 2012 at 3:11 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) nemow...@gmail.com wrote: Anthony, 17/06/2012 05:05: I still would have been confused.  Still am, actually.  Did this paragraph have a serious point at all?  I hope so, because Wikipedia's porn problem is a serious issue. The point was,

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-17 Thread David Gerard
On 17 June 2012 13:21, Anthony wikim...@inbox.org wrote: No software is perfect.  No solution is perfect.  But don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. You're assuming that a good exists for this function. This assumption is entirely unsubstantiated. - d.

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-17 Thread Anthony
On Sun, Jun 17, 2012 at 9:14 AM, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: On 17 June 2012 13:21, Anthony wikim...@inbox.org wrote: No software is perfect.  No solution is perfect.  But don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. You're assuming that a good exists for this function. This

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-17 Thread Andrew Gray
On 15 June 2012 13:21, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: I don't recall seeing any, but did anyone actually explain why the market had not provided a filtering solution for Wikipedia, if there's actually a demand for one? I think we had this conversation almost a year ago ;-)

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-17 Thread David Gerard
On 17 June 2012 14:50, Andrew Gray andrew.g...@dunelm.org.uk wrote: In short: the almost complete absence of anyone doing *anything* clever in terms of reusing and repurposing our content strongly suggests that there are practical barriers to doing so in general, rather than the flaws with

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-17 Thread Anthony
On Sun, Jun 17, 2012 at 9:30 AM, Anthony wikim...@inbox.org wrote: On Sun, Jun 17, 2012 at 9:14 AM, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: On 17 June 2012 13:21, Anthony wikim...@inbox.org wrote: No software is perfect.  No solution is perfect.  But don't let the perfect be the enemy of the

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-17 Thread Andrew Gray
On 17 June 2012 14:53, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: On 17 June 2012 14:50, Andrew Gray andrew.g...@dunelm.org.uk wrote: In short: the almost complete absence of anyone doing *anything* clever in terms of reusing and repurposing our content strongly suggests that there are practical

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-17 Thread David Gerard
On 17 June 2012 15:43, Andrew Gray andrew.g...@dunelm.org.uk wrote: As there are no major and well-used forks at all, we can't reasonably draw inferences of the desirability of a specific project from its non-existence - we simply don't have the information to make that conclusion. This

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-17 Thread geni
On 17 June 2012 14:14, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: On 17 June 2012 13:21, Anthony wikim...@inbox.org wrote: No software is perfect.  No solution is perfect.  But don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. You're assuming that a good exists for this function. This assumption

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-17 Thread Tobias Oelgarte
Am 17.06.2012 17:16, schrieb Anthony: On Sun, Jun 17, 2012 at 10:48 AM, David Gerarddger...@gmail.com wrote: So I think my question - if this is so obviously the right thing, then where are the existing attempts? - still stands as relevant. The fact that it is the right thing isn't obvious,

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-17 Thread Federico Leva (Nemo)
Andrew Gray, 17/06/2012 15:50: In short: the almost complete absence of anyone doing *anything* clever in terms of reusing and repurposing our content strongly suggests that there are practical barriers to doing so in general, rather than the flaws with any specific model of what it is they want

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-17 Thread Tobias Oelgarte
Am 17.06.2012 21:41, schrieb Federico Leva (Nemo): Andrew Gray, 17/06/2012 15:50: In short: the almost complete absence of anyone doing *anything* clever in terms of reusing and repurposing our content strongly suggests that there are practical barriers to doing so in general, rather than the

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-17 Thread Anthony
On Sun, Jun 17, 2012 at 1:04 PM, Tobias Oelgarte tobias.oelga...@googlemail.com wrote: It didn't even need to be complete fork. A whitelist copy would most likely already be sufficient for your needs. It would automatically update any article on a white list after a quick review (like sighted

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-17 Thread Tobias Oelgarte
Am 18.06.2012 00:40, schrieb Anthony: On Sun, Jun 17, 2012 at 1:04 PM, Tobias Oelgarte tobias.oelga...@googlemail.com wrote: It didn't even need to be complete fork. A whitelist copy would most likely already be sufficient for your needs. It would automatically update any article on a white

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-16 Thread Tobias Oelgarte
Am 15.06.2012 23:22, schrieb Andreas Kolbe: On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 1:21 PM, David Gerarddger...@gmail.com wrote: I don't recall seeing any, but did anyone actually explain why the market had not provided a filtering solution for Wikipedia, if there's actually a demand for one? (IIRC the

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-16 Thread Tom Morris
On Saturday, 16 June 2012 at 20:21, Tobias Oelgarte wrote: That means they already found a solution to their problem that includes the whole web at once. As you might have noticed it isn't perfect. I guess that it could be easily improved over time. But the image filter had an different goal.

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-16 Thread Tobias Oelgarte
Am 16.06.2012 23:36, schrieb Tom Morris: On Saturday, 16 June 2012 at 20:21, Tobias Oelgarte wrote: That means they already found a solution to their problem that includes the whole web at once. As you might have noticed it isn't perfect. I guess that it could be easily improved over time. But

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-16 Thread Tom Morris
On Saturday, 16 June 2012 at 23:51, Tobias Oelgarte wrote: Am 16.06.2012 23:36, schrieb Tom Morris: On Saturday, 16 June 2012 at 20:21, Tobias Oelgarte wrote: That means they already found a solution to their problem that includes the whole web at once. As you might have noticed it

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-16 Thread Anthony
On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 8:27 AM, Tom Morris t...@tommorris.org wrote: On Friday, 15 June 2012 at 13:21, David Gerard wrote: I don't recall seeing any, but did anyone actually explain why the market had not provided a filtering solution for Wikipedia, if there's actually a demand for one?

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-16 Thread Anthony
I have never seen a censorware that works flawlessly (not even china can do this right). Either it allows to much (incomplete blacklist) or it is unnecessary limited (incomplete whitelist producing angry mob). Additionally it has to suite the view of the parents and match the age of the

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-16 Thread Tobias Oelgarte
Am 17.06.2012 01:21, schrieb Anthony: I have never seen a censorware that works flawlessly (not even china can do this right). Either it allows to much (incomplete blacklist) or it is unnecessary limited (incomplete whitelist producing angry mob). Additionally it has to suite the view of the

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-16 Thread Bjoern Hoehrmann
* Tobias Oelgarte wrote: Am 17.06.2012 01:21, schrieb Anthony: I have never seen a censorware that works flawlessly (not even china can do this right). Either it allows to much (incomplete blacklist) or it is unnecessary limited (incomplete whitelist producing angry mob). Additionally it has

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-16 Thread Anthony
On Sat, Jun 16, 2012 at 9:48 PM, Tobias Oelgarte tobias.oelga...@googlemail.com wrote: Am 17.06.2012 01:21, schrieb Anthony: I have never seen a censorware that works flawlessly (not even china can do this right). Either it allows to much (incomplete blacklist) or it is unnecessary limited

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-15 Thread Jussi-Ville Heiskanen
On Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 11:40 PM, Risker risker...@gmail.com wrote: On 14 June 2012 16:19, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: On 14 June 2012 20:36, Andrew Gray andrew.g...@dunelm.org.uk wrote: Least surprise is one way to try and get around this problem of not relying on the

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-15 Thread Tobias Oelgarte
Am 14.06.2012 19:31, schrieb geni: On 14 June 2012 18:01, David Gerarddger...@gmail.com wrote: Yes, but this is called editorial judgement No its called censorship. Or at least it will be called censorship by enough people to make any debate not worth the effort. It is called censorship right

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-15 Thread David Gerard
On 15 June 2012 13:15, Tobias Oelgarte tobias.oelga...@googlemail.com wrote: I argued at some time that if there was a strong need for such a filter that there would already services in place that would filter the content or images. So far i have seen some very week approaches using the Google

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-15 Thread Tom Morris
On Friday, 15 June 2012 at 13:21, David Gerard wrote: I don't recall seeing any, but did anyone actually explain why the market had not provided a filtering solution for Wikipedia, if there's actually a demand for one? Market failures do sometimes exist. Also, because as far as I can tell,

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-15 Thread Andreas Kolbe
On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 1:21 PM, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: On 15 June 2012 13:15, Tobias Oelgarte tobias.oelga...@googlemail.com wrote: I argued at some time that if there was a strong need for such a filter that there would already services in place that would filter the

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-14 Thread geni
On 13 June 2012 21:30, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: I was looking over old discussions, and wondered: who originally came up with the notion that the principle of least surprise should apply to educational content? If it existed before Wikimedia, who introduced it to the image filter

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-14 Thread David Gerard
On 14 June 2012 12:52, geni geni...@gmail.com wrote: I think you miss the point of a concept. The idea is not that say [[Marriage]] shouldn't contain information about homosexual marriages, heterosexual marriages, marriages of convenience or polygamous marriages but that it probably shouldn't

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-14 Thread geni
On 14 June 2012 14:45, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: As I have noted already, this idealised version is not how it was used when it was introduced to the discussion and is not how it's been used in the most recent round of it. Looking at the timing of the phrase appeared in the email

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-14 Thread geni
On 14 June 2012 18:01, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: Yes, but this is called editorial judgement No its called censorship. Or at least it will be called censorship by enough people to make any debate not worth the effort. rather than something that can be imposed by filtering. True for

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-14 Thread Todd Allen
On Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 11:31 AM, geni geni...@gmail.com wrote: On 14 June 2012 18:01, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: Yes, but this is called editorial judgement No its called censorship. Or at least it will be called censorship by enough people to make any debate not worth the effort.

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-14 Thread Andrew Gray
On 14 June 2012 18:01, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: On 14 June 2012 17:22, geni geni...@gmail.com wrote: Shocking images in [[Nanking Massacre]] are pretty much expected. [[People's Republic of China–Japan relations]] not so much. [[Agent orange]] is a more boarderline case but these

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-14 Thread David Gerard
On 14 June 2012 20:36, Andrew Gray andrew.g...@dunelm.org.uk wrote: Least surprise is one way to try and get around this problem of not relying on the community's own judgement in all edge cases; I'm not sure it's the best one, but I'm not sure leaving it out is any better. The present usage

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-14 Thread Risker
On 14 June 2012 16:19, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: On 14 June 2012 20:36, Andrew Gray andrew.g...@dunelm.org.uk wrote: Least surprise is one way to try and get around this problem of not relying on the community's own judgement in all edge cases; I'm not sure it's the best one,

[Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-13 Thread David Gerard
I was looking over old discussions, and wondered: who originally came up with the notion that the principle of least surprise should apply to educational content? If it existed before Wikimedia, who introduced it to the image filter discussion, on what rationale? [Personally I think it's an

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-13 Thread Richard Symonds
Not sure, but I think it's the principle of least /astonishment/ - which may be an important difference... Richard Symonds Wikimedia UK 0207 065 0992 Disclaimer viewable at http://uk.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia:Email_disclaimer Visit http://www.wikimedia.org.uk/ and @wikimediauk On 13 June

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-13 Thread David Gerard
On 13 June 2012 21:32, Richard Symonds richard.symo...@wikimedia.org.uk wrote: Not sure, but I think it's the principle of least /astonishment/ - which may be an important difference... Pretty sure it doesn't for educational purposes. I think my objection stands in its entirety. (I note that

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-13 Thread Michael Peel
My understanding of this line of argument was that images would be displayed where you would expect them to be displayed (e.g. the article on penis or vagina would naturally include a picture of a penis or vagina), but wouldn't be immediately displayed where you wouldn't expect them (e.g. if

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-13 Thread David Gerard
On 13 June 2012 21:44, Michael Peel michael.p...@wikimedia.org.uk wrote: My understanding of this line of argument was that images would be displayed where you would expect them to be displayed (e.g. the article on penis or vagina would naturally include a picture of a penis or vagina), I

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-13 Thread Nathan
Earliest I have it on a Wikimedia list is from WikiEn-L on 2/11/08 from Ian Woollard (written as principle of least surprise), in the context of a Muhammad images thread started by Jimbo -- but my logs only go back to the summer of 07. On-wiki, I see it being used in naming convention arguments

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-13 Thread David Gerard
On 13 June 2012 21:56, Nathan nawr...@gmail.com wrote: Earliest I have it on a Wikimedia list is from WikiEn-L on 2/11/08 from Ian Woollard (written as principle of least surprise), in the context of a Muhammad images thread started by Jimbo -- but my logs only go back to the summer of 07.

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-13 Thread phoebe ayers
On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 1:44 PM, Michael Peel michael.p...@wikimedia.org.uk wrote: My understanding of this line of argument was that images would be displayed where you would expect them to be displayed (e.g. the article on penis or vagina would naturally include a picture of a penis or

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-13 Thread FT2
I can't say who came up with it. The point I first became aware of it was the posts, and consultation reports series, on Meta. It may well have predated that though, in which case I couldn't say. Advanced search in old enwp and meta dumps, or mailing lists would be a way to explore before that.

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-13 Thread Federico Leva (Nemo)
David Gerard, 13/06/2012 23:02: On-wiki, I see it being used in naming convention arguments for years, as early as April 2005. Yeah, that's arguably a user interface issue (with arguments being somewhat alleviated by a forest of redirects). I see it's been commonly used around user interface

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-13 Thread Tom Morris
On 13 June 2012 22:02, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: On 13 June 2012 21:56, Nathan nawr...@gmail.com wrote: Earliest I have it on a Wikimedia list is from WikiEn-L on 2/11/08 from Ian Woollard (written as principle of least surprise), in the context of a Muhammad images thread started

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who invoked principle of least surprise for the image filter?

2012-06-13 Thread Bjoern Hoehrmann
* Michael Peel wrote: My understanding of this line of argument was that images would be displayed where you would expect them to be displayed (e.g. the article on penis or vagina would naturally include a picture of a penis or vagina), but wouldn't be immediately displayed where you wouldn't