Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

2015-01-06 Thread Federico Leva (Nemo)

Patricia Pena, 06/01/2015 19:32:

worked with our bank to improve the security and fraud
protection of our bank accounts so that we can now disclose the bank
account information on our donation pages.


Great! Can these important security tips/steps be documented on a 
Meta-Wiki page, so that other affiliates can ensure their security as well?


Nemo

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

2015-01-06 Thread Patricia Pena
Hi Lodewijk and all,

Thank you for your feedback regarding the IBAN information. As an update,
the Finance team worked with our bank to improve the security and fraud
protection of our bank accounts so that we can now disclose the bank
account information on our donation pages.

We have updated the USD and EUR account information, and will add the
remaining currencies as we get the green-light from our bank.

Thanks and Happy New Year!
Pats Pena




On Fri, Dec 19, 2014 at 12:56 PM, Lodewijk lodew...@effeietsanders.org
wrote:

 Hi Pats,

 Thanks.

 Lodewijk

 On Fri, Dec 19, 2014 at 9:30 PM, Patricia Pena pp...@wikimedia.org
 wrote:
 
  Hi Lodewijk,
 
  Thanks for letting us know! IDEAL has been back up in the page, but we
  recently made a few changes that ended up accidentally removing the
 option
  from the form. It's all fixed now :)
 
  Regarding IBAN: Finance is still working with our bank and we should be
  sending an update once we hear from them.
 
  Thanks,
  Pats
 
  On Thu, Dec 18, 2014 at 2:39 PM, Lodewijk lodew...@effeietsanders.org
  wrote:
  
   Hi Pats,
  
   Please be aware that iDEAL is still not functional on the Dutch
  fundraiser
   page. Also, IBAN is missing.
  
   Best,
   Lodewijk
  
   On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 10:16 PM, Lodewijk 
 lodew...@effeietsanders.org
   wrote:
   
Hi Patricia,
   
Thanks for telling that the iDEAL will be back soon. I don't quite
understand from your answer why you add the increased hurdle of
  emailing
the team for the IBAN though. Am I overlooking something?
   
Best,
Lodewijk
   
On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 10:06 PM, Patricia Pena pp...@wikimedia.org
 
wrote:
   
Hi Lodewijk,
   
Currently IDEAL is temporarily down on our pages (it went into
   maintenance
mode after our annual campaign), but should be back up soon :)  We
  know
the importance of this method for Dutch donors and have supported
 this
option since we started fundraising in the NL. We also support
 offline
bank
transfer (IBAN) and donors can get the account number with our Donor
Services team.
   
We had an extremely successful Fundraising campaign this year, and
  there
will be some great mobile optimization coming up in the next few
  months,
which will allow mobile donors to complete their donations in a much
faster
and easier way.
   
Thanks!
Pats
   
On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 11:28 AM, Lodewijk 
  lodew...@effeietsanders.org
   
wrote:
   
 A while back now, the chapters were no longer allowed to
 fundraise,
because
 the Wikimedia Foundation argued they would be better able to do
  this.
   At
 the time, this sounded somewhat reasonable. However, since then,
  there
have
 been some disturbing developments - at least for Dutch donors.

 No longer it is possible to pay electronically (iDEAL, one of the
  most
 common methods is no longer supported - 'electronic banking'
 simply
refers
 you back to the credit card page) or even via regular bank
 transfer
(using
 an IBAN) in the Netherlands. The donation page
 

   
  
 
 https://donate.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:FundraiserLandingPagecountry=NLuselang=enutm_medium=spontaneousutm_source=fr-redirutm_campaign=spontaneous
 
 only
 allows credit card and paypal, and the 'other ways to give' simply
   sends
 you to the helpdesk if you want to make a bank transfer payment.

 What is the reasoning behind this? Have bank transfers become a
  legal
 swamp? Are there statistics suggesting that this method was no
  longer
 required by donors? Did the European bank account somehow get
temporarily
 suspended?

 If it has become so hard to donate, maybe it makes more sense to
  send
the
 donors to the local chapter pages where they can actually donate
 in
   the
 local suitable methods (in this case, Wikimedia Netherlands offers
   both
 iDEAL and IBAN
 http://www.wikimedia.nl/pagina/doneren-aan-wikimedia-nederland
 ).

 One of the Dutch OTRS team members asked for elaboration, but
 didn't
quite
 get a satisfying answer. I hope this is a temporary situation, and
   that
 this threshold will be removed again. It would be sad if we go
  through
all
 kind of trouble to enable long tail methods like bitcoin, but skip
   bank
 transfer...

 Best,

 Lodewijk
 ___
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 https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
 Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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  https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
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Wikimedia Foundation
office +1 (415) 839 6885 x6764
cell:   +1 (415) 816 3349
fax: +1 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

2014-12-19 Thread Patricia Pena
Hi Lodewijk,

Thanks for letting us know! IDEAL has been back up in the page, but we
recently made a few changes that ended up accidentally removing the option
from the form. It's all fixed now :)

Regarding IBAN: Finance is still working with our bank and we should be
sending an update once we hear from them.

Thanks,
Pats

On Thu, Dec 18, 2014 at 2:39 PM, Lodewijk lodew...@effeietsanders.org
wrote:

 Hi Pats,

 Please be aware that iDEAL is still not functional on the Dutch fundraiser
 page. Also, IBAN is missing.

 Best,
 Lodewijk

 On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 10:16 PM, Lodewijk lodew...@effeietsanders.org
 wrote:
 
  Hi Patricia,
 
  Thanks for telling that the iDEAL will be back soon. I don't quite
  understand from your answer why you add the increased hurdle of emailing
  the team for the IBAN though. Am I overlooking something?
 
  Best,
  Lodewijk
 
  On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 10:06 PM, Patricia Pena pp...@wikimedia.org
  wrote:
 
  Hi Lodewijk,
 
  Currently IDEAL is temporarily down on our pages (it went into
 maintenance
  mode after our annual campaign), but should be back up soon :)  We know
  the importance of this method for Dutch donors and have supported this
  option since we started fundraising in the NL. We also support offline
  bank
  transfer (IBAN) and donors can get the account number with our Donor
  Services team.
 
  We had an extremely successful Fundraising campaign this year, and there
  will be some great mobile optimization coming up in the next few months,
  which will allow mobile donors to complete their donations in a much
  faster
  and easier way.
 
  Thanks!
  Pats
 
  On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 11:28 AM, Lodewijk lodew...@effeietsanders.org
 
  wrote:
 
   A while back now, the chapters were no longer allowed to fundraise,
  because
   the Wikimedia Foundation argued they would be better able to do this.
 At
   the time, this sounded somewhat reasonable. However, since then, there
  have
   been some disturbing developments - at least for Dutch donors.
  
   No longer it is possible to pay electronically (iDEAL, one of the most
   common methods is no longer supported - 'electronic banking' simply
  refers
   you back to the credit card page) or even via regular bank transfer
  (using
   an IBAN) in the Netherlands. The donation page
   
  
 
 https://donate.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:FundraiserLandingPagecountry=NLuselang=enutm_medium=spontaneousutm_source=fr-redirutm_campaign=spontaneous
   
   only
   allows credit card and paypal, and the 'other ways to give' simply
 sends
   you to the helpdesk if you want to make a bank transfer payment.
  
   What is the reasoning behind this? Have bank transfers become a legal
   swamp? Are there statistics suggesting that this method was no longer
   required by donors? Did the European bank account somehow get
  temporarily
   suspended?
  
   If it has become so hard to donate, maybe it makes more sense to send
  the
   donors to the local chapter pages where they can actually donate in
 the
   local suitable methods (in this case, Wikimedia Netherlands offers
 both
   iDEAL and IBAN
   http://www.wikimedia.nl/pagina/doneren-aan-wikimedia-nederland).
  
   One of the Dutch OTRS team members asked for elaboration, but didn't
  quite
   get a satisfying answer. I hope this is a temporary situation, and
 that
   this threshold will be removed again. It would be sad if we go through
  all
   kind of trouble to enable long tail methods like bitcoin, but skip
 bank
   transfer...
  
   Best,
  
   Lodewijk
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  --
 
  Pats Pena | Sr. Manager, Global Operations
  Wikimedia Foundation
  office +1 (415) 839 6885 x6764
  cell:   +1 (415) 816 3349
  fax: +1 (415) 284 9511
  pp...@wikimedia.org
 
  *Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in
 the
  sum of all knowledge. That's our commitment. Donate.
  https://donate.wikimedia.org/*
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

2014-12-19 Thread Lodewijk
Hi Pats,

Thanks.

Lodewijk

On Fri, Dec 19, 2014 at 9:30 PM, Patricia Pena pp...@wikimedia.org wrote:

 Hi Lodewijk,

 Thanks for letting us know! IDEAL has been back up in the page, but we
 recently made a few changes that ended up accidentally removing the option
 from the form. It's all fixed now :)

 Regarding IBAN: Finance is still working with our bank and we should be
 sending an update once we hear from them.

 Thanks,
 Pats

 On Thu, Dec 18, 2014 at 2:39 PM, Lodewijk lodew...@effeietsanders.org
 wrote:
 
  Hi Pats,
 
  Please be aware that iDEAL is still not functional on the Dutch
 fundraiser
  page. Also, IBAN is missing.
 
  Best,
  Lodewijk
 
  On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 10:16 PM, Lodewijk lodew...@effeietsanders.org
  wrote:
  
   Hi Patricia,
  
   Thanks for telling that the iDEAL will be back soon. I don't quite
   understand from your answer why you add the increased hurdle of
 emailing
   the team for the IBAN though. Am I overlooking something?
  
   Best,
   Lodewijk
  
   On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 10:06 PM, Patricia Pena pp...@wikimedia.org
   wrote:
  
   Hi Lodewijk,
  
   Currently IDEAL is temporarily down on our pages (it went into
  maintenance
   mode after our annual campaign), but should be back up soon :)  We
 know
   the importance of this method for Dutch donors and have supported this
   option since we started fundraising in the NL. We also support offline
   bank
   transfer (IBAN) and donors can get the account number with our Donor
   Services team.
  
   We had an extremely successful Fundraising campaign this year, and
 there
   will be some great mobile optimization coming up in the next few
 months,
   which will allow mobile donors to complete their donations in a much
   faster
   and easier way.
  
   Thanks!
   Pats
  
   On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 11:28 AM, Lodewijk 
 lodew...@effeietsanders.org
  
   wrote:
  
A while back now, the chapters were no longer allowed to fundraise,
   because
the Wikimedia Foundation argued they would be better able to do
 this.
  At
the time, this sounded somewhat reasonable. However, since then,
 there
   have
been some disturbing developments - at least for Dutch donors.
   
No longer it is possible to pay electronically (iDEAL, one of the
 most
common methods is no longer supported - 'electronic banking' simply
   refers
you back to the credit card page) or even via regular bank transfer
   (using
an IBAN) in the Netherlands. The donation page

   
  
 
 https://donate.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:FundraiserLandingPagecountry=NLuselang=enutm_medium=spontaneousutm_source=fr-redirutm_campaign=spontaneous

only
allows credit card and paypal, and the 'other ways to give' simply
  sends
you to the helpdesk if you want to make a bank transfer payment.
   
What is the reasoning behind this? Have bank transfers become a
 legal
swamp? Are there statistics suggesting that this method was no
 longer
required by donors? Did the European bank account somehow get
   temporarily
suspended?
   
If it has become so hard to donate, maybe it makes more sense to
 send
   the
donors to the local chapter pages where they can actually donate in
  the
local suitable methods (in this case, Wikimedia Netherlands offers
  both
iDEAL and IBAN
http://www.wikimedia.nl/pagina/doneren-aan-wikimedia-nederland).
   
One of the Dutch OTRS team members asked for elaboration, but didn't
   quite
get a satisfying answer. I hope this is a temporary situation, and
  that
this threshold will be removed again. It would be sad if we go
 through
   all
kind of trouble to enable long tail methods like bitcoin, but skip
  bank
transfer...
   
Best,
   
Lodewijk
___
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 https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
  ,
mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org
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   --
  
   Pats Pena | Sr. Manager, Global Operations
   Wikimedia Foundation
   office +1 (415) 839 6885 x6764
   cell:   +1 (415) 816 3349
   fax: +1 (415) 284 9511
   pp...@wikimedia.org
  
   *Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in
  the
   sum of all knowledge. That's our commitment. Donate.
   https://donate.wikimedia.org/*
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

2014-12-19 Thread Mathias Damour

Le 19/12/2014 08:33, Gerard Meijssen a écrit :

Hoi,
I blogged about this [1]. By ignoring the rest of the world, they
effectively give ownership to the WMF to the USA way of working. On a more
practical level, they hand over money for their convenience that is in my
opinion an absolute waste. By using a UK organisation to process donations,
they ignore the UK chapter while they make demands of chapters to raise
funds.

PS I do hope the WMF gets all the money it is seeking.


+1

Funny I first read your last sentence:
''PS I do hope the WMF gets all the money its sinking.''
...

--
Mathias Damour
User:Astirmays

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

2014-12-18 Thread Lodewijk
Hi Pats,

Please be aware that iDEAL is still not functional on the Dutch fundraiser
page. Also, IBAN is missing.

Best,
Lodewijk

On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 10:16 PM, Lodewijk lodew...@effeietsanders.org
wrote:

 Hi Patricia,

 Thanks for telling that the iDEAL will be back soon. I don't quite
 understand from your answer why you add the increased hurdle of emailing
 the team for the IBAN though. Am I overlooking something?

 Best,
 Lodewijk

 On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 10:06 PM, Patricia Pena pp...@wikimedia.org
 wrote:

 Hi Lodewijk,

 Currently IDEAL is temporarily down on our pages (it went into maintenance
 mode after our annual campaign), but should be back up soon :)  We know
 the importance of this method for Dutch donors and have supported this
 option since we started fundraising in the NL. We also support offline
 bank
 transfer (IBAN) and donors can get the account number with our Donor
 Services team.

 We had an extremely successful Fundraising campaign this year, and there
 will be some great mobile optimization coming up in the next few months,
 which will allow mobile donors to complete their donations in a much
 faster
 and easier way.

 Thanks!
 Pats

 On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 11:28 AM, Lodewijk lodew...@effeietsanders.org
 wrote:

  A while back now, the chapters were no longer allowed to fundraise,
 because
  the Wikimedia Foundation argued they would be better able to do this. At
  the time, this sounded somewhat reasonable. However, since then, there
 have
  been some disturbing developments - at least for Dutch donors.
 
  No longer it is possible to pay electronically (iDEAL, one of the most
  common methods is no longer supported - 'electronic banking' simply
 refers
  you back to the credit card page) or even via regular bank transfer
 (using
  an IBAN) in the Netherlands. The donation page
  
 
 https://donate.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:FundraiserLandingPagecountry=NLuselang=enutm_medium=spontaneousutm_source=fr-redirutm_campaign=spontaneous
  
  only
  allows credit card and paypal, and the 'other ways to give' simply sends
  you to the helpdesk if you want to make a bank transfer payment.
 
  What is the reasoning behind this? Have bank transfers become a legal
  swamp? Are there statistics suggesting that this method was no longer
  required by donors? Did the European bank account somehow get
 temporarily
  suspended?
 
  If it has become so hard to donate, maybe it makes more sense to send
 the
  donors to the local chapter pages where they can actually donate in the
  local suitable methods (in this case, Wikimedia Netherlands offers both
  iDEAL and IBAN
  http://www.wikimedia.nl/pagina/doneren-aan-wikimedia-nederland).
 
  One of the Dutch OTRS team members asked for elaboration, but didn't
 quite
  get a satisfying answer. I hope this is a temporary situation, and that
  this threshold will be removed again. It would be sad if we go through
 all
  kind of trouble to enable long tail methods like bitcoin, but skip bank
  transfer...
 
  Best,
 
  Lodewijk
  ___
  Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
  https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
  Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
  Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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 --

 Pats Pena | Sr. Manager, Global Operations
 Wikimedia Foundation
 office +1 (415) 839 6885 x6764
 cell:   +1 (415) 816 3349
 fax: +1 (415) 284 9511
 pp...@wikimedia.org

 *Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the
 sum of all knowledge. That's our commitment. Donate.
 https://donate.wikimedia.org/*
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 Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

2014-12-18 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
I blogged about this [1]. By ignoring the rest of the world, they
effectively give ownership to the WMF to the USA way of working. On a more
practical level, they hand over money for their convenience that is in my
opinion an absolute waste. By using a UK organisation to process donations,
they ignore the UK chapter while they make demands of chapters to raise
funds.

PS I do hope the WMF gets all the money it is seeking.
Thanks,
  GerardM

[1]
http://ultimategerardm.blogspot.nl/2014/12/wikimedia-foundation-does-not-get-one.html

On 18 December 2014 at 23:39, Lodewijk lodew...@effeietsanders.org wrote:

 Hi Pats,

 Please be aware that iDEAL is still not functional on the Dutch fundraiser
 page. Also, IBAN is missing.

 Best,
 Lodewijk

 On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 10:16 PM, Lodewijk lodew...@effeietsanders.org
 wrote:
 
  Hi Patricia,
 
  Thanks for telling that the iDEAL will be back soon. I don't quite
  understand from your answer why you add the increased hurdle of emailing
  the team for the IBAN though. Am I overlooking something?
 
  Best,
  Lodewijk
 
  On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 10:06 PM, Patricia Pena pp...@wikimedia.org
  wrote:
 
  Hi Lodewijk,
 
  Currently IDEAL is temporarily down on our pages (it went into
 maintenance
  mode after our annual campaign), but should be back up soon :)  We know
  the importance of this method for Dutch donors and have supported this
  option since we started fundraising in the NL. We also support offline
  bank
  transfer (IBAN) and donors can get the account number with our Donor
  Services team.
 
  We had an extremely successful Fundraising campaign this year, and there
  will be some great mobile optimization coming up in the next few months,
  which will allow mobile donors to complete their donations in a much
  faster
  and easier way.
 
  Thanks!
  Pats
 
  On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 11:28 AM, Lodewijk lodew...@effeietsanders.org
 
  wrote:
 
   A while back now, the chapters were no longer allowed to fundraise,
  because
   the Wikimedia Foundation argued they would be better able to do this.
 At
   the time, this sounded somewhat reasonable. However, since then, there
  have
   been some disturbing developments - at least for Dutch donors.
  
   No longer it is possible to pay electronically (iDEAL, one of the most
   common methods is no longer supported - 'electronic banking' simply
  refers
   you back to the credit card page) or even via regular bank transfer
  (using
   an IBAN) in the Netherlands. The donation page
   
  
 
 https://donate.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:FundraiserLandingPagecountry=NLuselang=enutm_medium=spontaneousutm_source=fr-redirutm_campaign=spontaneous
   
   only
   allows credit card and paypal, and the 'other ways to give' simply
 sends
   you to the helpdesk if you want to make a bank transfer payment.
  
   What is the reasoning behind this? Have bank transfers become a legal
   swamp? Are there statistics suggesting that this method was no longer
   required by donors? Did the European bank account somehow get
  temporarily
   suspended?
  
   If it has become so hard to donate, maybe it makes more sense to send
  the
   donors to the local chapter pages where they can actually donate in
 the
   local suitable methods (in this case, Wikimedia Netherlands offers
 both
   iDEAL and IBAN
   http://www.wikimedia.nl/pagina/doneren-aan-wikimedia-nederland).
  
   One of the Dutch OTRS team members asked for elaboration, but didn't
  quite
   get a satisfying answer. I hope this is a temporary situation, and
 that
   this threshold will be removed again. It would be sad if we go through
  all
   kind of trouble to enable long tail methods like bitcoin, but skip
 bank
   transfer...
  
   Best,
  
   Lodewijk
   ___
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   https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
   Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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 ,
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  --
 
  Pats Pena | Sr. Manager, Global Operations
  Wikimedia Foundation
  office +1 (415) 839 6885 x6764
  cell:   +1 (415) 816 3349
  fax: +1 (415) 284 9511
  pp...@wikimedia.org
 
  *Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in
 the
  sum of all knowledge. That's our commitment. Donate.
  https://donate.wikimedia.org/*
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  https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

2014-12-02 Thread Kim Bruning
That's very interesting.
However, as stated, in .nl (and SEPA) one pays people using IBAN
accounts.

One not-pays people using not-IBAN.

iDeal is a handy dandy web interface to do (essentially) IBAN transfers.

Them's the options; whether I personally like them or not.[*] 

c'est tout!

Incidentally, for a SEPA area bank transfer, at a typical .nl bank, you
fill in the person's name, their IBAN Account Number [**], and the
amount; then click send. [***].  []

Alternately, iDeal fills this out for you, and you just click
Approve.  []

Re:Fraud: one bank I work for has the policy to hunt down, find, and
prosecute every single fraud at all costs, and to the fullest extent
possible under law. They do so as a matter of honour. Suffice to say
this does tend to reduce the incidence of fraud in the country O:-) 

sincerely,
Kim Bruning

[*] Actually I kinda like these options; but I do live just ~2 hours from
Brussels, so things tend to work well for me.  YMMV for people who live in
some island kingdom or what have you O:-)
[**] International Bank Account Number account number; brought to you
by the department of redundancy department.
[***] For WMF I'd love it if they also ticked repeat monthly ;-)
[] Not counting security procedures. :-P


On Mon, Dec 01, 2014 at 12:31:23AM -0500, Risker wrote:
 Ummm.  We have all kinds of ways for people to donate, and the process for
 transferring is pretty clear.  Having been in a situation where I had to
 make bank transfers, I felt honestly like I was handing over the keys to
 the kingdom just for the right to pay someone money: far more personal
 information was required than is needed for any other means of payment that
 I've ever used.  Banks in Canada regularly call their customers for
 transactions under $5 because fraud is so common - and that is with chip
 cards and PINs.
 
 Risker
 
 
 
 On 1 December 2014 at 00:08, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com
 wrote:
 
  Hoi,
  IMHO we need to advertise how people can transfer money to us. It requires
  an account number. Now if the USA is not able to accommodate this, FINE,
  let us do it in Europe at least..
 
  WHAT AM I MISSING HERE ?
  Thanks,
 GerardM
 
  On 1 December 2014 at 03:38, Michael Snow wikipe...@frontier.com wrote:
 
   On 11/30/2014 1:14 PM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
  
   Hoi,
   An IBAN number is NOT a credit card ... You need a ping number in
   combination with some smart card functionality in order to make it
  work..
   The combination generates a number that is always different..
  
   You seem to have misunderstood the scenario I laid out. I'm not talking
   about people using the IBAN to steal money out of a Wikimedia account, I
   depend on the bank to have security robust enough to prevent that. The
   scenario I'm discussing involves people using the IBAN to fraudulently
  pay
   money to Wikimedia from someone else's account, such as a credit card.
  That
   account does not necessarily have an IBAN or chip-and-pin security, and
  at
   any rate whatever security it has was already breached. The payment would
   just be a method for the fraudsters to verify the success of the breach.
   The result would be added costs to Wikimedia and to the financial
   institutions involved, in order to identify and reverse the fraudulent
   transactions.
  
   To respond to some of the other questions raised about my scenario:
  
   This was a risk scenario I presented to answer the question, How can
   posting a bank account number lead to fraud? It may or may not have
  been a
   factor in the decision to not publicly post the IBAN, I don't know.
  
   I'm also not suggesting that this scenario is unique to IBAN, it could
   affect any type of account number that accepts payments (for example,
   accounts you might have for various utility services, such as water,
   electricity, telephone, or internet). It's also possible thru PayPal, of
   course, and that's the reason for having a $1 minimum donation
  requirement,
   among other protections. I don't know if there are difficulties with
   establishing comparable security around the IBAN, or if it's more a
  matter
   of a cost-benefit analysis indicating that it's worth the resources to
  deal
   with this for donations via Wikimedia's online payment form, but not for
   donations directly to Wikimedia's bank account.
  
   Also, I'm no expert on EU regulations, but I do observe that according to
   the European Payments Council, it seems payees receiving SEPA credit
   transfers are advised to communicate the IBAN only where necessary:
   http://www.europeanpaymentscouncil.eu/index.cfm/sepa-credit-
   transfer/iban-and-bic/ (and likewise for payers making direct debit
   payments). It may simply be that the fundraising team has been advised
  that
   this is more consistent with providing the IBAN upon request, rather than
   posting it on the website. Not to disparage what may be common practice
  at
   other 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

2014-12-01 Thread Federico Leva (Nemo)

Tim Landscheidt, 01/12/2014 04:22:

Also, I'm no expert on EU regulations, but I do observe that
according to the European Payments Council, it seems payees
receiving SEPA credit transfers are advised to communicate
the IBAN only where necessary:
http://www.europeanpaymentscouncil.eu/index.cfm/sepa-credit-transfer/iban-and-bic/
(and likewise for payers making direct debit payments).

That text and Regulation 260/2012 it refers to use only
where necessary to refer to the publication of the*BIC*  as
it is only necessary for routing in the transition period
that ends February 1st, 2016 at the latest.



Besides, «Note: the European Payments Council (EPC), representing the 
European banking industry in relation to payments, is not a European 
Union (EU) legislative body».


Michael Snow, 01/12/2014 03:59:
 I'm not sure why you would conclude they are unaware of a possible form
 for fraud just because they don't specifically identify it on their
 website.

Because part of the ECB mandate is to identify, combat and educate about 
payment systems risks. There are dozens of watchdogs ensuring they 
actually do (the biggest might be BEUC). If WMF, with its certainly 
outstanding computer security knowledge, identified security risks which 
ECB is not forthcoming about, I'd expect WMF to communicate with ECB, 
and if necessary partner with consumerist associations, so that such 
risks are communicated to 516 millions SEPA area citizens.


Risker, 01/12/2014 06:31:
   Banks in Canada regularly call their customers for
 transactions under $5 because fraud is so common - and that is with chip
 cards and PINs.

And what does this tell us about EU/SEPA banking system?

Nemo

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

2014-11-30 Thread
On 30 November 2014 at 07:35, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com wrote:
...
 Do not be daft. The Wikimedia Foundation centralised its fundraising. It
 said that it would do a better job. Seen from a central periphery model, it
 probably does, However seen from the Netherlands it is rather silly.,
...

I believe that the current process of centralizing funds in the USA
that are actually taken in Europe and then paid out outside of the USA
is *highly* inefficient. By the time the WMF and local organization
(i.e. chapter, thorg, user group or project) costs of fundraising,
grant applications, administration and reporting, payment costs and
significant tax burden are considered, this (avoidable system) throws
away at least 40c out of each donated $1 before we can even start
calculating the extra administration costs/wastage from that point on,
which as a past Chapter chair, I know can easily be a further 50%
compounded on the cost.

Despite this being raised several times over the last few years, no
chapter or the WMF has unambiguously or straight-forwardly calculated
the true end-to-end processing costs. As a consequence, this can only
be a guesstimate based on experience.

Fae
-- 
fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

2014-11-30 Thread rupert THURNER
hi mz,

you are right, the whole wikipedia is built by volunteer time and
could have not been built otherwise. so volunteer time clearly is
worth significantly more. i sometimes feel ripped off as a volunteer.
first i donate my time, and then people approach me to addtionally
spend money for a conference, like last year in geneva 250eur for an
open knowledge conference. or i want to meet a person who is not
wealthy enough to pay her trip to london within the UK, and there is
no way to get her a 100 gbp, as happend last year. wmf is not capable
- i should have planned this a year in advance. wmch would be flexible
enough but a different country and punished by WMF for beeing
flexible. wmuk does not have a budget for such a strange thing, and it
should have known it in advance as well.

so where should this money come from? the easiest and cheapest is:
take the money from the website. coupled with a more flexible,
localised spending scheme. so WMCH or WMUK could pay this without
headache. but WMF does not want this. out of 60 mio usd income, 52 mio
or 86% is spent by the wikimedia foundation, yearly increasing. and
most of it is spent in the united states.

some time in future even wmf persons will recognize that if i would be
perfectly organized and most intelligent person in the world i would
use zero time for wikipedia. i'd instead sell my time as expensive as
possible, and i'd be rich as bill gates. the foundation, and even some
chapters, give the impression only perfect persons are good enough for
them. or, even worse, treat them deliberatly like cattle. the core of
its movement with it turns away, as those people are not good enough.
and as bill gates and the other perfect persons will not contribute,
nobody will. so we are back on field one, nupedia. jimbo has his
personal foundation which will honor him even when he is dead,
financed by one of the worlds largest websites. the foundation pays
1000 persons to keep it running. no volunteers necessary.

rupert

On Sun, Nov 30, 2014 at 3:36 AM, MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com wrote:
 Wikimedia always accepts donations. If the Wikimedia Foundation can't
 figure out a way to easily accept monetary donations from Dutch
 Wikimedians, why not simply focus efforts on non-monetary donations?
 Edits and other wiki contributions are far more valuable, in my opinion.
 Wikimedia Nederland seems to already be doing a lot of great work
 encouraging these types of contributions (e.g., Wiki Loves [X]). :-)

 For the past few years I've seen it as fairly low-hanging fruit to create
 a tongue-in-cheek don't donate to Wikipedia or donate time instead or
 similar campaign. Or even register DonateToWikipedia.org and send
 visitors to the edit form of an article that needs love. When people ask
 me in real-life about donating to Wikipedia (nobody knows what Wikimedia
 is), I typically suggest making a few edits instead of donating money
 directly. I don't think the Wikimedia Foundation really needs the money
 and I think volunteer time is worth significantly more.

 MZMcBride



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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

2014-11-30 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
Our community, movement and our foundation is pretty darn good. When you
consider all the imperfections, there is after all room for improvement, it
is really amazing how much is achieved on such a shoestring budget. We pay
the prize for under-investing in our organisation, in our infrastructure.
Our primary systems however are pretty stable.

My point is not that we should lose our ethos but that we should be more
smart about it. It is only fairly recently that we have the talent to
really improve the basics of our infra structure. We now have our systems
in multiple professional locations, The guts of MediaWiki is changing in
more than one way. Wikidata will make a splash in 2015. As it is, it is has
so much room for growth. The biggest amount of data will arrive from the
bigger projects however, the biggest potential is in the 250 other
languages that we support.

Yes, there are plenty individual stories that suck. But our projects will
never be like Nupedia. Some people have to revisit what we learned. One of
the lessons was that we can be and should be daring and innovative. Not
heeding this lesson is what will most likely do us in.
Thanks,
   GerardM

On 30 November 2014 at 15:23, rupert THURNER rupert.thur...@gmail.com
wrote:

 hi mz,

 you are right, the whole wikipedia is built by volunteer time and
 could have not been built otherwise. so volunteer time clearly is
 worth significantly more. i sometimes feel ripped off as a volunteer.
 first i donate my time, and then people approach me to addtionally
 spend money for a conference, like last year in geneva 250eur for an
 open knowledge conference. or i want to meet a person who is not
 wealthy enough to pay her trip to london within the UK, and there is
 no way to get her a 100 gbp, as happend last year. wmf is not capable
 - i should have planned this a year in advance. wmch would be flexible
 enough but a different country and punished by WMF for beeing
 flexible. wmuk does not have a budget for such a strange thing, and it
 should have known it in advance as well.

 so where should this money come from? the easiest and cheapest is:
 take the money from the website. coupled with a more flexible,
 localised spending scheme. so WMCH or WMUK could pay this without
 headache. but WMF does not want this. out of 60 mio usd income, 52 mio
 or 86% is spent by the wikimedia foundation, yearly increasing. and
 most of it is spent in the united states.

 some time in future even wmf persons will recognize that if i would be
 perfectly organized and most intelligent person in the world i would
 use zero time for wikipedia. i'd instead sell my time as expensive as
 possible, and i'd be rich as bill gates. the foundation, and even some
 chapters, give the impression only perfect persons are good enough for
 them. or, even worse, treat them deliberatly like cattle. the core of
 its movement with it turns away, as those people are not good enough.
 and as bill gates and the other perfect persons will not contribute,
 nobody will. so we are back on field one, nupedia. jimbo has his
 personal foundation which will honor him even when he is dead,
 financed by one of the worlds largest websites. the foundation pays
 1000 persons to keep it running. no volunteers necessary.

 rupert

 On Sun, Nov 30, 2014 at 3:36 AM, MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com wrote:
  Wikimedia always accepts donations. If the Wikimedia Foundation can't
  figure out a way to easily accept monetary donations from Dutch
  Wikimedians, why not simply focus efforts on non-monetary donations?
  Edits and other wiki contributions are far more valuable, in my opinion.
  Wikimedia Nederland seems to already be doing a lot of great work
  encouraging these types of contributions (e.g., Wiki Loves [X]). :-)
 
  For the past few years I've seen it as fairly low-hanging fruit to create
  a tongue-in-cheek don't donate to Wikipedia or donate time instead or
  similar campaign. Or even register DonateToWikipedia.org and send
  visitors to the edit form of an article that needs love. When people ask
  me in real-life about donating to Wikipedia (nobody knows what Wikimedia
  is), I typically suggest making a few edits instead of donating money
  directly. I don't think the Wikimedia Foundation really needs the money
  and I think volunteer time is worth significantly more.
 
  MZMcBride
 
 
 
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

2014-11-30 Thread Federico Leva (Nemo)

Michael Snow, 30/11/2014 01:03:

One avenue for fraud that's facilitated by posting account numbers is
small payment fraud, usually involving stolen credit cards.  [.]


So what all this message have to do with IBAN?

Nemo


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

2014-11-30 Thread Michael Snow

On 11/30/2014 10:19 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) wrote:

Michael Snow, 30/11/2014 01:03:

One avenue for fraud that's facilitated by posting account numbers is
small payment fraud, usually involving stolen credit cards. 
[.]


So what all this message have to do with IBAN?
As the rest of the message discussed, the fraudsters can use the IBAN to 
make a donation in order to test that stolen card information belongs 
to a real credit card.


--Michael Snow

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

2014-11-30 Thread Jan Ainali
2014-11-30 19:40 GMT+01:00 Michael Snow wikipe...@frontier.com:

 On 11/30/2014 10:19 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) wrote:

 Michael Snow, 30/11/2014 01:03:

 One avenue for fraud that's facilitated by posting account numbers is
 small payment fraud, usually involving stolen credit cards.
 [.]


 So what all this message have to do with IBAN?

 As the rest of the message discussed, the fraudsters can use the IBAN to
 make a donation in order to test that stolen card information belongs to
 a real credit card.


Is IBAN more vulnerable to this than just the possibility to being able to
donate from a credit card at all?

/Jan
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

2014-11-30 Thread Bence Damokos
On Sun, Nov 30, 2014 at 7:40 PM, Michael Snow wikipe...@frontier.com
wrote:

 On 11/30/2014 10:19 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) wrote:

 Michael Snow, 30/11/2014 01:03:

 One avenue for fraud that's facilitated by posting account numbers is
 small payment fraud, usually involving stolen credit cards.
 [.]


 So what all this message have to do with IBAN?

 As the rest of the message discussed, the fraudsters can use the IBAN to
 make a donation in order to test that stolen card information belongs to
 a real credit card.

Thinking through your example, the fraudsters would need to have an online
interface for transfering money from a credit card to a bank account, and
getting some form of verification that the transfer went through. I am not
sure it was clear from your explanation how knowing the bank account number
any help in getting the two components for the fraud (the transfer system
and the verification), as opposed to the donation system itself (which does
not have to reveal the destination account number, and which in the case of
the WMF is likely a different account then the bank account whose number
was previously displayed online).

Best regards,
Bence



 --Michael Snow


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

2014-11-30 Thread Federico Leva (Nemo)

Michael Snow, 30/11/2014 19:40:

As the rest of the message discussed, the fraudsters can use the IBAN to
make a donation in order to test that stolen card information belongs
to a real credit card.


Are you sure you know what an IBAN is?

Anyway, please inform the European Central Bank of your findings, I'm 
sure they'll be interested in hearing them. Currently their website 
seems unaware of such fraud possibilities and contains statements such 
as «Sensitive data payment: Data which could be used to carry out fraud, 
excluding the name of the account owner and the account number».

https://www.ecb.europa.eu/pub/pdf/other/pubconsultationoutcome201405securitypaymentaccountaccessservicesen.pdf

Nemo

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

2014-11-30 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
An IBAN number is NOT a credit card ... You need a ping number in
combination with some smart card functionality in order to make it work..
The combination generates a number that is always different..

You can steal my card but making use of it without the pin number is really
hard, next to impossible.. At that Europe has better card security than the
USA.
Thanks,
 GerardM

On 30 November 2014 at 19:40, Michael Snow wikipe...@frontier.com wrote:

 On 11/30/2014 10:19 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) wrote:

 Michael Snow, 30/11/2014 01:03:

 One avenue for fraud that's facilitated by posting account numbers is
 small payment fraud, usually involving stolen credit cards.
 [.]


 So what all this message have to do with IBAN?

 As the rest of the message discussed, the fraudsters can use the IBAN to
 make a donation in order to test that stolen card information belongs to
 a real credit card.

 --Michael Snow


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

2014-11-30 Thread Frédéric Schütz
On 29/11/14 10:05, Lodewijk wrote:

 Thanks for the clarification. It's surprising to me that posting a bank
 account number could lead to fraud - the bank systems are supposed to be
 robust enough for that.

My understanding is this is mostly a problem in the US, from what I
heard from Garfield. I asked him because Wikimedia CH broadcast its IBAN
number everywhere for the fundraising, so I would have liked to know of
any potential problem, but there does not seem to be any in Europe.

(I don't know much about the US banking system, but it looks like
knowing someone's account number may indeed be enough to wreak havoc on
their account; see for example the recollection of computer scientist
Donald Knuth, who had to stop sending checks to people who discover
errors in his books: http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~uno/news08.html)

 I know that all charities in the Netherlands post
 this number on their website - maybe it could be worth while to reach out
 and see if switching banks might improve the security, if Citibank didn't
 fix it themselves?

It is definitively the case in Switzerland too -- and the reason why we
(Wikimedia CH) are very efficient at low cost fundraising: the marginal
cost of direct bank deposit is close to 0%. And we get about 6 bank
deposits for every credit card donation.

F.


 Anyway, best of luck with fixing the underlying problem!
 
 Best,
 Lodewijk
 
 On Sat, Nov 29, 2014 at 12:13 AM, Garfield Byrd gb...@wikimedia.org wrote:
 
 Lodewijk,

 IBAN and bank account information is sent out upon request due to the level
 of attempted bank fraud when the account information was posted on the
 website.

 I can review with our bank to see if IBAN security and fraud protection has
 improved so that we can publicly post our IBAN number.

 Regards,

 Garfield

 On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 1:16 PM, Lodewijk lodew...@effeietsanders.org
 wrote:

 Hi Patricia,

 Thanks for telling that the iDEAL will be back soon. I don't quite
 understand from your answer why you add the increased hurdle of emailing
 the team for the IBAN though. Am I overlooking something?

 Best,
 Lodewijk

 On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 10:06 PM, Patricia Pena pp...@wikimedia.org
 wrote:

 Hi Lodewijk,

 Currently IDEAL is temporarily down on our pages (it went into
 maintenance
 mode after our annual campaign), but should be back up soon :)  We know
 the importance of this method for Dutch donors and have supported this
 option since we started fundraising in the NL. We also support offline
 bank
 transfer (IBAN) and donors can get the account number with our Donor
 Services team.

 We had an extremely successful Fundraising campaign this year, and
 there
 will be some great mobile optimization coming up in the next few
 months,
 which will allow mobile donors to complete their donations in a much
 faster
 and easier way.

 Thanks!
 Pats

 On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 11:28 AM, Lodewijk 
 lodew...@effeietsanders.org
 wrote:

 A while back now, the chapters were no longer allowed to fundraise,
 because
 the Wikimedia Foundation argued they would be better able to do this.
 At
 the time, this sounded somewhat reasonable. However, since then,
 there
 have
 been some disturbing developments - at least for Dutch donors.

 No longer it is possible to pay electronically (iDEAL, one of the
 most
 common methods is no longer supported - 'electronic banking' simply
 refers
 you back to the credit card page) or even via regular bank transfer
 (using
 an IBAN) in the Netherlands. The donation page
 



 https://donate.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:FundraiserLandingPagecountry=NLuselang=enutm_medium=spontaneousutm_source=fr-redirutm_campaign=spontaneous

 only
 allows credit card and paypal, and the 'other ways to give' simply
 sends
 you to the helpdesk if you want to make a bank transfer payment.

 What is the reasoning behind this? Have bank transfers become a legal
 swamp? Are there statistics suggesting that this method was no longer
 required by donors? Did the European bank account somehow get
 temporarily
 suspended?

 If it has become so hard to donate, maybe it makes more sense to send
 the
 donors to the local chapter pages where they can actually donate in
 the
 local suitable methods (in this case, Wikimedia Netherlands offers
 both
 iDEAL and IBAN
 http://www.wikimedia.nl/pagina/doneren-aan-wikimedia-nederland).

 One of the Dutch OTRS team members asked for elaboration, but didn't
 quite
 get a satisfying answer. I hope this is a temporary situation, and
 that
 this threshold will be removed again. It would be sad if we go
 through
 all
 kind of trouble to enable long tail methods like bitcoin, but skip
 bank
 transfer...

 Best,

 Lodewijk
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

2014-11-30 Thread Michael Snow

On 11/30/2014 1:14 PM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:

Hoi,
An IBAN number is NOT a credit card ... You need a ping number in
combination with some smart card functionality in order to make it work..
The combination generates a number that is always different..
You seem to have misunderstood the scenario I laid out. I'm not talking 
about people using the IBAN to steal money out of a Wikimedia account, I 
depend on the bank to have security robust enough to prevent that. The 
scenario I'm discussing involves people using the IBAN to fraudulently 
pay money to Wikimedia from someone else's account, such as a credit 
card. That account does not necessarily have an IBAN or chip-and-pin 
security, and at any rate whatever security it has was already breached. 
The payment would just be a method for the fraudsters to verify the 
success of the breach. The result would be added costs to Wikimedia and 
to the financial institutions involved, in order to identify and reverse 
the fraudulent transactions.


To respond to some of the other questions raised about my scenario:

This was a risk scenario I presented to answer the question, How can 
posting a bank account number lead to fraud? It may or may not have 
been a factor in the decision to not publicly post the IBAN, I don't know.


I'm also not suggesting that this scenario is unique to IBAN, it could 
affect any type of account number that accepts payments (for example, 
accounts you might have for various utility services, such as water, 
electricity, telephone, or internet). It's also possible thru PayPal, of 
course, and that's the reason for having a $1 minimum donation 
requirement, among other protections. I don't know if there are 
difficulties with establishing comparable security around the IBAN, or 
if it's more a matter of a cost-benefit analysis indicating that it's 
worth the resources to deal with this for donations via Wikimedia's 
online payment form, but not for donations directly to Wikimedia's bank 
account.


Also, I'm no expert on EU regulations, but I do observe that according 
to the European Payments Council, it seems payees receiving SEPA credit 
transfers are advised to communicate the IBAN only where necessary: 
http://www.europeanpaymentscouncil.eu/index.cfm/sepa-credit-transfer/iban-and-bic/ 
(and likewise for payers making direct debit payments). It may simply be 
that the fundraising team has been advised that this is more consistent 
with providing the IBAN upon request, rather than posting it on the 
website. Not to disparage what may be common practice at other 
organizations, but that does seem like a natural conclusion to draw from 
that guidance.


--Michael Snow

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

2014-11-30 Thread Michael Snow

On 11/30/2014 11:12 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) wrote:
Anyway, please inform the European Central Bank of your findings, I'm 
sure they'll be interested in hearing them. Currently their website 
seems unaware of such fraud possibilities and contains statements such 
as «Sensitive data payment: Data which could be used to carry out 
fraud, excluding the name of the account owner and the account number».
https://www.ecb.europa.eu/pub/pdf/other/pubconsultationoutcome201405securitypaymentaccountaccessservicesen.pdf 

I'm not sure why you would conclude they are unaware of a possible form 
for fraud just because they don't specifically identify it on their 
website. At any rate, I suspect you may be misunderstanding the 
definition of sensitive payment data (the actual term from the linked 
document, which was somehow transposed above).


To my reading, that looks like an attempt to create a precise technical 
definition for the purposes of the report, so that whenever the term was 
used it would always mean the same thing. I don't think it's claiming 
that the name of the account owner and the account number are not in the 
larger class of data which could be used to carry out fraud. Rather, 
because these are nearly essential to transactions being possible at 
all, I believe the language is attempting to exclude them from the 
restrictions that the report recommends for all other data which meets 
the definition of sensitive payment data.


--Michael Snow

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

2014-11-30 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
IMHO we need to advertise how people can transfer money to us. It requires
an account number. Now if the USA is not able to accommodate this, FINE,
let us do it in Europe at least..

WHAT AM I MISSING HERE ?
Thanks,
   GerardM

On 1 December 2014 at 03:38, Michael Snow wikipe...@frontier.com wrote:

 On 11/30/2014 1:14 PM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:

 Hoi,
 An IBAN number is NOT a credit card ... You need a ping number in
 combination with some smart card functionality in order to make it work..
 The combination generates a number that is always different..

 You seem to have misunderstood the scenario I laid out. I'm not talking
 about people using the IBAN to steal money out of a Wikimedia account, I
 depend on the bank to have security robust enough to prevent that. The
 scenario I'm discussing involves people using the IBAN to fraudulently pay
 money to Wikimedia from someone else's account, such as a credit card. That
 account does not necessarily have an IBAN or chip-and-pin security, and at
 any rate whatever security it has was already breached. The payment would
 just be a method for the fraudsters to verify the success of the breach.
 The result would be added costs to Wikimedia and to the financial
 institutions involved, in order to identify and reverse the fraudulent
 transactions.

 To respond to some of the other questions raised about my scenario:

 This was a risk scenario I presented to answer the question, How can
 posting a bank account number lead to fraud? It may or may not have been a
 factor in the decision to not publicly post the IBAN, I don't know.

 I'm also not suggesting that this scenario is unique to IBAN, it could
 affect any type of account number that accepts payments (for example,
 accounts you might have for various utility services, such as water,
 electricity, telephone, or internet). It's also possible thru PayPal, of
 course, and that's the reason for having a $1 minimum donation requirement,
 among other protections. I don't know if there are difficulties with
 establishing comparable security around the IBAN, or if it's more a matter
 of a cost-benefit analysis indicating that it's worth the resources to deal
 with this for donations via Wikimedia's online payment form, but not for
 donations directly to Wikimedia's bank account.

 Also, I'm no expert on EU regulations, but I do observe that according to
 the European Payments Council, it seems payees receiving SEPA credit
 transfers are advised to communicate the IBAN only where necessary:
 http://www.europeanpaymentscouncil.eu/index.cfm/sepa-credit-
 transfer/iban-and-bic/ (and likewise for payers making direct debit
 payments). It may simply be that the fundraising team has been advised that
 this is more consistent with providing the IBAN upon request, rather than
 posting it on the website. Not to disparage what may be common practice at
 other organizations, but that does seem like a natural conclusion to draw
 from that guidance.


 --Michael Snow

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

2014-11-30 Thread Risker
Ummm.  We have all kinds of ways for people to donate, and the process for
transferring is pretty clear.  Having been in a situation where I had to
make bank transfers, I felt honestly like I was handing over the keys to
the kingdom just for the right to pay someone money: far more personal
information was required than is needed for any other means of payment that
I've ever used.  Banks in Canada regularly call their customers for
transactions under $5 because fraud is so common - and that is with chip
cards and PINs.

Risker



On 1 December 2014 at 00:08, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com
wrote:

 Hoi,
 IMHO we need to advertise how people can transfer money to us. It requires
 an account number. Now if the USA is not able to accommodate this, FINE,
 let us do it in Europe at least..

 WHAT AM I MISSING HERE ?
 Thanks,
GerardM

 On 1 December 2014 at 03:38, Michael Snow wikipe...@frontier.com wrote:

  On 11/30/2014 1:14 PM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
 
  Hoi,
  An IBAN number is NOT a credit card ... You need a ping number in
  combination with some smart card functionality in order to make it
 work..
  The combination generates a number that is always different..
 
  You seem to have misunderstood the scenario I laid out. I'm not talking
  about people using the IBAN to steal money out of a Wikimedia account, I
  depend on the bank to have security robust enough to prevent that. The
  scenario I'm discussing involves people using the IBAN to fraudulently
 pay
  money to Wikimedia from someone else's account, such as a credit card.
 That
  account does not necessarily have an IBAN or chip-and-pin security, and
 at
  any rate whatever security it has was already breached. The payment would
  just be a method for the fraudsters to verify the success of the breach.
  The result would be added costs to Wikimedia and to the financial
  institutions involved, in order to identify and reverse the fraudulent
  transactions.
 
  To respond to some of the other questions raised about my scenario:
 
  This was a risk scenario I presented to answer the question, How can
  posting a bank account number lead to fraud? It may or may not have
 been a
  factor in the decision to not publicly post the IBAN, I don't know.
 
  I'm also not suggesting that this scenario is unique to IBAN, it could
  affect any type of account number that accepts payments (for example,
  accounts you might have for various utility services, such as water,
  electricity, telephone, or internet). It's also possible thru PayPal, of
  course, and that's the reason for having a $1 minimum donation
 requirement,
  among other protections. I don't know if there are difficulties with
  establishing comparable security around the IBAN, or if it's more a
 matter
  of a cost-benefit analysis indicating that it's worth the resources to
 deal
  with this for donations via Wikimedia's online payment form, but not for
  donations directly to Wikimedia's bank account.
 
  Also, I'm no expert on EU regulations, but I do observe that according to
  the European Payments Council, it seems payees receiving SEPA credit
  transfers are advised to communicate the IBAN only where necessary:
  http://www.europeanpaymentscouncil.eu/index.cfm/sepa-credit-
  transfer/iban-and-bic/ (and likewise for payers making direct debit
  payments). It may simply be that the fundraising team has been advised
 that
  this is more consistent with providing the IBAN upon request, rather than
  posting it on the website. Not to disparage what may be common practice
 at
  other organizations, but that does seem like a natural conclusion to draw
  from that guidance.
 
 
  --Michael Snow
 
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

2014-11-30 Thread Tim Landscheidt
Frédéric Schütz sch...@mathgen.ch wrote:

 Thanks for the clarification. It's surprising to me that posting a bank
 account number could lead to fraud - the bank systems are supposed to be
 robust enough for that.

 My understanding is this is mostly a problem in the US, from what I
 heard from Garfield. I asked him because Wikimedia CH broadcast its IBAN
 number everywhere for the fundraising, so I would have liked to know of
 any potential problem, but there does not seem to be any in Europe.

 [...]

Nothing prevents WMF from opening a bank account in Europe;
in fact given that most of the requests in this thread orig-
inate from within the SEPA region, having a bank account
outside it would be very inconvient for many donors.

Tim


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

2014-11-30 Thread Tim Landscheidt
Michael Snow wikipe...@frontier.com wrote:

 [...]

 Also, I'm no expert on EU regulations, but I do observe that
 according to the European Payments Council, it seems payees
 receiving SEPA credit transfers are advised to communicate
 the IBAN only where necessary:
 http://www.europeanpaymentscouncil.eu/index.cfm/sepa-credit-transfer/iban-and-bic/
 (and likewise for payers making direct debit payments).

That text and Regulation 260/2012 it refers to use only
where necessary to refer to the publication of the *BIC* as
it is only necessary for routing in the transition period
that ends February 1st, 2016 at the latest.

 (and likewise for payers making direct debit payments). It
 may simply be that the fundraising team has been advised
 that this is more consistent with providing the IBAN upon
 request, rather than posting it on the website. Not to
 disparage what may be common practice at other
 organizations, but that does seem like a natural conclusion
 to draw from that guidance.

It could also be that the guidance was bad (or misunder-
stood) and it is advisable to change banks before money is
lost.

Tim


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

2014-11-30 Thread Lodewijk
just for the record: the IBAN we have been talking about al this time is
the bank account number of a WMF bank account in euro, at a bank located in
Paris (and previously in Brussels). Of course the WMF has a euro bank
account, it would be odd if they didn't.

Lodewijk

ps: no need to shout.

On Mon, Dec 1, 2014 at 1:36 AM, Tim Landscheidt t...@tim-landscheidt.de
wrote:

 Frédéric Schütz sch...@mathgen.ch wrote:

  Thanks for the clarification. It's surprising to me that posting a bank
  account number could lead to fraud - the bank systems are supposed to be
  robust enough for that.

  My understanding is this is mostly a problem in the US, from what I
  heard from Garfield. I asked him because Wikimedia CH broadcast its IBAN
  number everywhere for the fundraising, so I would have liked to know of
  any potential problem, but there does not seem to be any in Europe.

  [...]

 Nothing prevents WMF from opening a bank account in Europe;
 in fact given that most of the requests in this thread orig-
 inate from within the SEPA region, having a bank account
 outside it would be very inconvient for many donors.

 Tim


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

2014-11-29 Thread Lodewijk
Hi Garfield,

Thanks for the clarification. It's surprising to me that posting a bank
account number could lead to fraud - the bank systems are supposed to be
robust enough for that. I know that all charities in the Netherlands post
this number on their website - maybe it could be worth while to reach out
and see if switching banks might improve the security, if Citibank didn't
fix it themselves? (There is little relevancy of security to 'IBAN' itself
of course, which is merely a bank account number. I'm assuming you're
referring to what people can do using that number to get access in the
bank).

Anyway, best of luck with fixing the underlying problem!

Best,
Lodewijk

On Sat, Nov 29, 2014 at 12:13 AM, Garfield Byrd gb...@wikimedia.org wrote:

 Lodewijk,

 IBAN and bank account information is sent out upon request due to the level
 of attempted bank fraud when the account information was posted on the
 website.

 I can review with our bank to see if IBAN security and fraud protection has
 improved so that we can publicly post our IBAN number.

 Regards,

 Garfield

 On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 1:16 PM, Lodewijk lodew...@effeietsanders.org
 wrote:

  Hi Patricia,
 
  Thanks for telling that the iDEAL will be back soon. I don't quite
  understand from your answer why you add the increased hurdle of emailing
  the team for the IBAN though. Am I overlooking something?
 
  Best,
  Lodewijk
 
  On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 10:06 PM, Patricia Pena pp...@wikimedia.org
  wrote:
 
   Hi Lodewijk,
  
   Currently IDEAL is temporarily down on our pages (it went into
  maintenance
   mode after our annual campaign), but should be back up soon :)  We know
   the importance of this method for Dutch donors and have supported this
   option since we started fundraising in the NL. We also support offline
  bank
   transfer (IBAN) and donors can get the account number with our Donor
   Services team.
  
   We had an extremely successful Fundraising campaign this year, and
 there
   will be some great mobile optimization coming up in the next few
 months,
   which will allow mobile donors to complete their donations in a much
  faster
   and easier way.
  
   Thanks!
   Pats
  
   On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 11:28 AM, Lodewijk 
 lodew...@effeietsanders.org
   wrote:
  
A while back now, the chapters were no longer allowed to fundraise,
   because
the Wikimedia Foundation argued they would be better able to do this.
  At
the time, this sounded somewhat reasonable. However, since then,
 there
   have
been some disturbing developments - at least for Dutch donors.
   
No longer it is possible to pay electronically (iDEAL, one of the
 most
common methods is no longer supported - 'electronic banking' simply
   refers
you back to the credit card page) or even via regular bank transfer
   (using
an IBAN) in the Netherlands. The donation page

   
  
 
 https://donate.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:FundraiserLandingPagecountry=NLuselang=enutm_medium=spontaneousutm_source=fr-redirutm_campaign=spontaneous

only
allows credit card and paypal, and the 'other ways to give' simply
  sends
you to the helpdesk if you want to make a bank transfer payment.
   
What is the reasoning behind this? Have bank transfers become a legal
swamp? Are there statistics suggesting that this method was no longer
required by donors? Did the European bank account somehow get
  temporarily
suspended?
   
If it has become so hard to donate, maybe it makes more sense to send
  the
donors to the local chapter pages where they can actually donate in
 the
local suitable methods (in this case, Wikimedia Netherlands offers
 both
iDEAL and IBAN
http://www.wikimedia.nl/pagina/doneren-aan-wikimedia-nederland).
   
One of the Dutch OTRS team members asked for elaboration, but didn't
   quite
get a satisfying answer. I hope this is a temporary situation, and
 that
this threshold will be removed again. It would be sad if we go
 through
   all
kind of trouble to enable long tail methods like bitcoin, but skip
 bank
transfer...
   
Best,
   
Lodewijk
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   --
  
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   Wikimedia Foundation
   office +1 (415) 839 6885 x6764
   cell:   +1 (415) 816 3349
   fax: +1 (415) 284 9511
   pp...@wikimedia.org
  
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  the
   sum of all knowledge. That's our commitment. Donate.
   https://donate.wikimedia.org/*
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

2014-11-29 Thread Michael Snow

On 11/29/2014 1:05 AM, Lodewijk wrote:

Hi Garfield,

Thanks for the clarification. It's surprising to me that posting a bank
account number could lead to fraud - the bank systems are supposed to be
robust enough for that. I know that all charities in the Netherlands post
this number on their website - maybe it could be worth while to reach out
and see if switching banks might improve the security, if Citibank didn't
fix it themselves? (There is little relevancy of security to 'IBAN' itself
of course, which is merely a bank account number. I'm assuming you're
referring to what people can do using that number to get access in the
bank).
One avenue for fraud that's facilitated by posting account numbers is 
small payment fraud, usually involving stolen credit cards. The basic 
technique is that when people illegally buy credit card numbers in large 
volumes, since they normally don't possess an actual card, they commonly 
test the validity of the card information by making very small online 
payments or donations to a known account. If the transaction goes 
through, they know the card number can be safely used for larger-scale 
fraud. Meanwhile, the small donations will invariably be backed out of 
the system, whether by the fraudsters themselves or by the financial 
institutions cleaning up later when the fraud is detected.


I don't know if that's the specific reason for the decision here, but I 
know the fundraising team has dealt with fraud of this type in the past, 
and there may be other issues as well. Ultimately it may not directly 
threaten the security of our donors or the funds they contribute, but it 
does create costs to the organization when it has to identify and review 
a significant amount of fraudulent activity. Also, in financial circles 
becoming a target for fraud or money laundering, even inadvertently, 
could affect our reputation and the willingness of other organizations 
to work with us.


As for our own difficulties around communications here, I suspect on all 
sides we don't fully appreciate the challenges involved when trying to 
merge financial cultures in a global sense. A system may provide 
relatively open access to credit while treating bank information as 
highly sensitive (as the US mostly does), or it may be more open with 
bank information while being much more restrictive about credit (as some 
European countries do). Each system has its security practices tailored 
to facilitating typical transaction flows within the system. The 
underlying assumptions may not work well across systems and may hinder 
the ability to establish smooth connections between the two sides. I 
certainly don't claim that the American system is necessarily superior, 
but in the past when we've considered in which jurisdiction the 
Wikimedia Foundation should base its operations, I think the financial 
regime has been a secondary consideration, relative to other priorities.


--Michael Snow

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

2014-11-29 Thread MZMcBride
Wikimedia always accepts donations. If the Wikimedia Foundation can't
figure out a way to easily accept monetary donations from Dutch
Wikimedians, why not simply focus efforts on non-monetary donations?
Edits and other wiki contributions are far more valuable, in my opinion.
Wikimedia Nederland seems to already be doing a lot of great work
encouraging these types of contributions (e.g., Wiki Loves [X]). :-)

For the past few years I've seen it as fairly low-hanging fruit to create
a tongue-in-cheek don't donate to Wikipedia or donate time instead or
similar campaign. Or even register DonateToWikipedia.org and send
visitors to the edit form of an article that needs love. When people ask
me in real-life about donating to Wikipedia (nobody knows what Wikimedia
is), I typically suggest making a few edits instead of donating money
directly. I don't think the Wikimedia Foundation really needs the money
and I think volunteer time is worth significantly more.

MZMcBride



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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

2014-11-29 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
Do not be daft. The Wikimedia Foundation centralised its fundraising. It
said that it would do a better job. Seen from a central periphery model, it
probably does, However seen from the Netherlands it is rather silly.,

Pooh poohing this away with you can donate time as well is fine when you
are in the centre.

Recently chapters were told to fundraise. There is a point to that but it
is also a specific skill. It is not smart to develop such skills and not
make use of it in what is effectively the biggest fundraiser for a chapter.

We are discussing,yet again, the text and approach of the fundraiser and we
are yet again going through the same moves.  We are a movement and the
Wikimedia Foundation is not it. It does not optimise the opportunities for
all of us. In the Netherlands, I would not be surprised when the amount of
fundraising could at least double with local involvement.
Thanks,
   GerardM

On 30 November 2014 at 03:36, MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com wrote:

 Wikimedia always accepts donations. If the Wikimedia Foundation can't
 figure out a way to easily accept monetary donations from Dutch
 Wikimedians, why not simply focus efforts on non-monetary donations?
 Edits and other wiki contributions are far more valuable, in my opinion.
 Wikimedia Nederland seems to already be doing a lot of great work
 encouraging these types of contributions (e.g., Wiki Loves [X]). :-)

 For the past few years I've seen it as fairly low-hanging fruit to create
 a tongue-in-cheek don't donate to Wikipedia or donate time instead or
 similar campaign. Or even register DonateToWikipedia.org and send
 visitors to the edit form of an article that needs love. When people ask
 me in real-life about donating to Wikipedia (nobody knows what Wikimedia
 is), I typically suggest making a few edits instead of donating money
 directly. I don't think the Wikimedia Foundation really needs the money
 and I think volunteer time is worth significantly more.

 MZMcBride



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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

2014-11-28 Thread Patricia Pena
All,

The local chapter processes payments in Switzerland and manages fundraising
banners and payment systems implementation.  WMF is not running fundraising
banners in Switzerland.

If you spot any problems or issues, please do inform the local chapter.

Thanks,
Pats


On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 12:35 AM, charles andrès (WMCH) 
charles.andres.w...@gmail.com wrote:

 I just try and I am randomly redirected to the localize page or the WMF
 page…..


  Le 27 nov. 2014 à 09:20, rupert THURNER rupert.thur...@gmail.com a
 écrit :
 
  The day before yesterday I was presented a fundraising banner in
  Switzerland which redirects to the donation page of Wmf, contrary the
  chapters page.
 
  Rupert
  On Nov 26, 2014 3:18 PM, Kim Bruning k...@bruning.xs4all.nl wrote:
 
  Just following up,
 
  Has WMNL now received the sought information?
 
  sincerely,
 Kim Bruning
 
 
  On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 08:42:01AM +0100, Lodewijk wrote:
  It seems everyone agrees it is an important method (although I'm not
 100%
  sure that the US based people running the fundraiser fully comprehend
 - I
  am assuming this is the case), but there seems to be some reason why
 the
  WMF chooses to not make this option easily available. A reason they
  choose
  not to disclose, but to be fuzzy about. I'm very sorry about this, and
 as
  Liam says, this fits in a trend with the Russian people no longer being
  allowed to donate. Maybe the two are connected, but this is all
  speculation.
 
  I'm sorry to see these steps back from the more open attitude there
 was a
  few years back. It feels very much that we are, as a community, being
 fed
  canned press answers. But then, maybe there's a real need for that and
  there's a huge legal threat to making it easy to donate through bank
  transfer that cannot be disclosed...
 
  Best,
  Lodewijk
 
  On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 1:34 AM, Kim Bruning k...@bruning.xs4all.nl
  wrote:
 
 
  To amplify:
 
  Paying (business) taxes in The Netherlands now pretty much requires
  electronic payment to an IBAN Account; a.k.a. it is (now) the
 standard,
  default, baseline way to make payments at all.
 
  After registering a business, the very next action is to open an
 (IBAN)
  account. All extant dutch accounts that predate IBAN have been
  converted
  to IBAN. All administration systems (must(!)) support IBAN.
 
  If you want to do business in the Netherlands, you need to support
  IBAN.
 
  Note that many (most?) dutch citizens do not have credit cards or
  paypal
  accounts.
 
  Further, IBAN is standardized throughout the euro-zone.
 
  iDEAL is nice to have and important. IBAN is a minimal baseline
  requirement.
 
  sincerely,
 Kim
 
 
 
  On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 10:42:31PM +0100, Walter Vermeir wrote:
  Op 17-11-14 om 20:28 schreef Lodewijk:
 
  you back to the credit card page) or even via regular bank transfer
  (using
  an IBAN) in the Netherlands. The donation page
 
  Historically the structure of bank account numbers are very different
  from country to country. And making transfers from one bank account
  to
  an other bank account, especially internationally, are/where complex
  and
  expensive.
 
  There is still a lot of room of improvement but nevertheless it has
  never been so easy and cheap to do international transfers as now.
 
  The IBAN system - International Bank Account Number - is active in a
  fair chunk of the globe.
 
 
 
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Bank_Account_Number#Adoption
 
  Inside the EURO-zone , 19 countries, ?? 337 million Europeans ,
  people
  can make a bank transfer to an EURO-zone IBAN bank account without
  additional expenses.
 
  Many more outside the EURO-zone can easy make international payments
  to
  an IBAN bank account. That is not free ... but paypal is certainly
  not
  free also. The costs are just deducted from your donation.
 
 
  The WMF has always has been a huge fan of payment by credit cards.
  Understandable, the WMF is founded in the country of the Credit card.
 
  But that can make you blind to the fact that other people are used to
  total other payment systems.
 
  A couple of years ago I discovered that there where still people
  using
  cheques in France. That came as a total surprise to me. I remember my
  dad using cheques 30 years ago. I never came in to contact with a
  cheque
  since then. To my knowledge cheques where long gone. History.
  Extinct.
 
  But ... when you have the financial business concept of the WMF -
  when
  you need money beg for it - the donation channel should be tailer
  made
  for the specific common way of payment used by the person who is so
  good
  to be willing to make an donation.
 
  Walter
 
 
 
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  https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

2014-11-28 Thread Lodewijk
Hi Pats,

maybe as a little background: Charles Andres, who you're responding to, is
actually an employee of Wikimedia CH. Your response might still be valid -
I can't judge that - but it sounds odd to me as a relative outsider :)

Best,
Lodewijk

On Fri, Nov 28, 2014 at 11:45 PM, Patricia Pena pp...@wikimedia.org wrote:

 All,

 The local chapter processes payments in Switzerland and manages fundraising
 banners and payment systems implementation.  WMF is not running fundraising
 banners in Switzerland.

 If you spot any problems or issues, please do inform the local chapter.

 Thanks,
 Pats


 On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 12:35 AM, charles andrès (WMCH) 
 charles.andres.w...@gmail.com wrote:

  I just try and I am randomly redirected to the localize page or the WMF
  page…..
 
 
   Le 27 nov. 2014 à 09:20, rupert THURNER rupert.thur...@gmail.com a
  écrit :
  
   The day before yesterday I was presented a fundraising banner in
   Switzerland which redirects to the donation page of Wmf, contrary the
   chapters page.
  
   Rupert
   On Nov 26, 2014 3:18 PM, Kim Bruning k...@bruning.xs4all.nl wrote:
  
   Just following up,
  
   Has WMNL now received the sought information?
  
   sincerely,
  Kim Bruning
  
  
   On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 08:42:01AM +0100, Lodewijk wrote:
   It seems everyone agrees it is an important method (although I'm not
  100%
   sure that the US based people running the fundraiser fully comprehend
  - I
   am assuming this is the case), but there seems to be some reason why
  the
   WMF chooses to not make this option easily available. A reason they
   choose
   not to disclose, but to be fuzzy about. I'm very sorry about this,
 and
  as
   Liam says, this fits in a trend with the Russian people no longer
 being
   allowed to donate. Maybe the two are connected, but this is all
   speculation.
  
   I'm sorry to see these steps back from the more open attitude there
  was a
   few years back. It feels very much that we are, as a community, being
  fed
   canned press answers. But then, maybe there's a real need for that
 and
   there's a huge legal threat to making it easy to donate through bank
   transfer that cannot be disclosed...
  
   Best,
   Lodewijk
  
   On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 1:34 AM, Kim Bruning k...@bruning.xs4all.nl
   wrote:
  
  
   To amplify:
  
   Paying (business) taxes in The Netherlands now pretty much requires
   electronic payment to an IBAN Account; a.k.a. it is (now) the
  standard,
   default, baseline way to make payments at all.
  
   After registering a business, the very next action is to open an
  (IBAN)
   account. All extant dutch accounts that predate IBAN have been
   converted
   to IBAN. All administration systems (must(!)) support IBAN.
  
   If you want to do business in the Netherlands, you need to support
   IBAN.
  
   Note that many (most?) dutch citizens do not have credit cards or
   paypal
   accounts.
  
   Further, IBAN is standardized throughout the euro-zone.
  
   iDEAL is nice to have and important. IBAN is a minimal baseline
   requirement.
  
   sincerely,
  Kim
  
  
  
   On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 10:42:31PM +0100, Walter Vermeir wrote:
   Op 17-11-14 om 20:28 schreef Lodewijk:
  
   you back to the credit card page) or even via regular bank
 transfer
   (using
   an IBAN) in the Netherlands. The donation page
  
   Historically the structure of bank account numbers are very
 different
   from country to country. And making transfers from one bank account
   to
   an other bank account, especially internationally, are/where
 complex
   and
   expensive.
  
   There is still a lot of room of improvement but nevertheless it has
   never been so easy and cheap to do international transfers as now.
  
   The IBAN system - International Bank Account Number - is active in
 a
   fair chunk of the globe.
  
  
  
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Bank_Account_Number#Adoption
  
   Inside the EURO-zone , 19 countries, ?? 337 million Europeans ,
   people
   can make a bank transfer to an EURO-zone IBAN bank account without
   additional expenses.
  
   Many more outside the EURO-zone can easy make international
 payments
   to
   an IBAN bank account. That is not free ... but paypal is certainly
   not
   free also. The costs are just deducted from your donation.
  
  
   The WMF has always has been a huge fan of payment by credit cards.
   Understandable, the WMF is founded in the country of the Credit
 card.
  
   But that can make you blind to the fact that other people are used
 to
   total other payment systems.
  
   A couple of years ago I discovered that there where still people
   using
   cheques in France. That came as a total surprise to me. I remember
 my
   dad using cheques 30 years ago. I never came in to contact with a
   cheque
   since then. To my knowledge cheques where long gone. History.
   Extinct.
  
   But ... when you have the financial business concept of the WMF -
   when
   you need 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

2014-11-28 Thread Frédéric Schütz
On 28/11/14 23:49, Lodewijk wrote:

 maybe as a little background: Charles Andres, who you're responding to, is
 actually an employee of Wikimedia CH. Your response might still be valid -
 I can't judge that - but it sounds odd to me as a relative outsider :)

Indeed, I think Patricia missed the point of Rupert and Charles' emails.
I have just tested myself from a computer on a Swiss IP address, opening
20 times the donation page, I get about half of the time the WM CH
landing page, and the other half the WMF landing page.

There is nothing WM CH can do, it is a problem with the redirection link
on the WMF servers -- and it is obviously pretty annoying for us (WM
CH). So far, we haven't heard anything from the WMF after Rupert first
spotted the problem (thanks !).

Frédéric

 On Fri, Nov 28, 2014 at 11:45 PM, Patricia Pena pp...@wikimedia.org wrote:
 
 All,

 The local chapter processes payments in Switzerland and manages fundraising
 banners and payment systems implementation.  WMF is not running fundraising
 banners in Switzerland.

 If you spot any problems or issues, please do inform the local chapter.

 Thanks,
 Pats


 On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 12:35 AM, charles andrès (WMCH) 
 charles.andres.w...@gmail.com wrote:

 I just try and I am randomly redirected to the localize page or the WMF
 page…..


 Le 27 nov. 2014 à 09:20, rupert THURNER rupert.thur...@gmail.com a
 écrit :

 The day before yesterday I was presented a fundraising banner in
 Switzerland which redirects to the donation page of Wmf, contrary the
 chapters page.

 Rupert
 On Nov 26, 2014 3:18 PM, Kim Bruning k...@bruning.xs4all.nl wrote:

 Just following up,

 Has WMNL now received the sought information?

 sincerely,
Kim Bruning


 On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 08:42:01AM +0100, Lodewijk wrote:
 It seems everyone agrees it is an important method (although I'm not
 100%
 sure that the US based people running the fundraiser fully comprehend
 - I
 am assuming this is the case), but there seems to be some reason why
 the
 WMF chooses to not make this option easily available. A reason they
 choose
 not to disclose, but to be fuzzy about. I'm very sorry about this,
 and
 as
 Liam says, this fits in a trend with the Russian people no longer
 being
 allowed to donate. Maybe the two are connected, but this is all
 speculation.

 I'm sorry to see these steps back from the more open attitude there
 was a
 few years back. It feels very much that we are, as a community, being
 fed
 canned press answers. But then, maybe there's a real need for that
 and
 there's a huge legal threat to making it easy to donate through bank
 transfer that cannot be disclosed...

 Best,
 Lodewijk

 On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 1:34 AM, Kim Bruning k...@bruning.xs4all.nl
 wrote:


 To amplify:

 Paying (business) taxes in The Netherlands now pretty much requires
 electronic payment to an IBAN Account; a.k.a. it is (now) the
 standard,
 default, baseline way to make payments at all.

 After registering a business, the very next action is to open an
 (IBAN)
 account. All extant dutch accounts that predate IBAN have been
 converted
 to IBAN. All administration systems (must(!)) support IBAN.

 If you want to do business in the Netherlands, you need to support
 IBAN.

 Note that many (most?) dutch citizens do not have credit cards or
 paypal
 accounts.

 Further, IBAN is standardized throughout the euro-zone.

 iDEAL is nice to have and important. IBAN is a minimal baseline
 requirement.

 sincerely,
Kim



 On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 10:42:31PM +0100, Walter Vermeir wrote:
 Op 17-11-14 om 20:28 schreef Lodewijk:

 you back to the credit card page) or even via regular bank
 transfer
 (using
 an IBAN) in the Netherlands. The donation page

 Historically the structure of bank account numbers are very
 different
 from country to country. And making transfers from one bank account
 to
 an other bank account, especially internationally, are/where
 complex
 and
 expensive.

 There is still a lot of room of improvement but nevertheless it has
 never been so easy and cheap to do international transfers as now.

 The IBAN system - International Bank Account Number - is active in
 a
 fair chunk of the globe.



 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Bank_Account_Number#Adoption

 Inside the EURO-zone , 19 countries, ?? 337 million Europeans ,
 people
 can make a bank transfer to an EURO-zone IBAN bank account without
 additional expenses.

 Many more outside the EURO-zone can easy make international
 payments
 to
 an IBAN bank account. That is not free ... but paypal is certainly
 not
 free also. The costs are just deducted from your donation.


 The WMF has always has been a huge fan of payment by credit cards.
 Understandable, the WMF is founded in the country of the Credit
 card.

 But that can make you blind to the fact that other people are used
 to
 total other payment systems.

 A couple of years ago I discovered that there where still people
 using
 cheques in France. 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

2014-11-28 Thread Garfield Byrd
Lodewijk,

IBAN and bank account information is sent out upon request due to the level
of attempted bank fraud when the account information was posted on the
website.

I can review with our bank to see if IBAN security and fraud protection has
improved so that we can publicly post our IBAN number.

Regards,

Garfield

On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 1:16 PM, Lodewijk lodew...@effeietsanders.org
wrote:

 Hi Patricia,

 Thanks for telling that the iDEAL will be back soon. I don't quite
 understand from your answer why you add the increased hurdle of emailing
 the team for the IBAN though. Am I overlooking something?

 Best,
 Lodewijk

 On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 10:06 PM, Patricia Pena pp...@wikimedia.org
 wrote:

  Hi Lodewijk,
 
  Currently IDEAL is temporarily down on our pages (it went into
 maintenance
  mode after our annual campaign), but should be back up soon :)  We know
  the importance of this method for Dutch donors and have supported this
  option since we started fundraising in the NL. We also support offline
 bank
  transfer (IBAN) and donors can get the account number with our Donor
  Services team.
 
  We had an extremely successful Fundraising campaign this year, and there
  will be some great mobile optimization coming up in the next few months,
  which will allow mobile donors to complete their donations in a much
 faster
  and easier way.
 
  Thanks!
  Pats
 
  On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 11:28 AM, Lodewijk lodew...@effeietsanders.org
  wrote:
 
   A while back now, the chapters were no longer allowed to fundraise,
  because
   the Wikimedia Foundation argued they would be better able to do this.
 At
   the time, this sounded somewhat reasonable. However, since then, there
  have
   been some disturbing developments - at least for Dutch donors.
  
   No longer it is possible to pay electronically (iDEAL, one of the most
   common methods is no longer supported - 'electronic banking' simply
  refers
   you back to the credit card page) or even via regular bank transfer
  (using
   an IBAN) in the Netherlands. The donation page
   
  
 
 https://donate.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:FundraiserLandingPagecountry=NLuselang=enutm_medium=spontaneousutm_source=fr-redirutm_campaign=spontaneous
   
   only
   allows credit card and paypal, and the 'other ways to give' simply
 sends
   you to the helpdesk if you want to make a bank transfer payment.
  
   What is the reasoning behind this? Have bank transfers become a legal
   swamp? Are there statistics suggesting that this method was no longer
   required by donors? Did the European bank account somehow get
 temporarily
   suspended?
  
   If it has become so hard to donate, maybe it makes more sense to send
 the
   donors to the local chapter pages where they can actually donate in the
   local suitable methods (in this case, Wikimedia Netherlands offers both
   iDEAL and IBAN
   http://www.wikimedia.nl/pagina/doneren-aan-wikimedia-nederland).
  
   One of the Dutch OTRS team members asked for elaboration, but didn't
  quite
   get a satisfying answer. I hope this is a temporary situation, and that
   this threshold will be removed again. It would be sad if we go through
  all
   kind of trouble to enable long tail methods like bitcoin, but skip bank
   transfer...
  
   Best,
  
   Lodewijk
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  --
 
  Pats Pena | Sr. Manager, Global Operations
  Wikimedia Foundation
  office +1 (415) 839 6885 x6764
  cell:   +1 (415) 816 3349
  fax: +1 (415) 284 9511
  pp...@wikimedia.org
 
  *Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in
 the
  sum of all knowledge. That's our commitment. Donate.
  https://donate.wikimedia.org/*
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Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in
the sum of all knowledge. Help us make it a reality!

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

2014-11-27 Thread rupert THURNER
The day before yesterday I was presented a fundraising banner in
Switzerland which redirects to the donation page of Wmf, contrary the
chapters page.

Rupert
On Nov 26, 2014 3:18 PM, Kim Bruning k...@bruning.xs4all.nl wrote:

 Just following up,

 Has WMNL now received the sought information?

 sincerely,
 Kim Bruning


 On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 08:42:01AM +0100, Lodewijk wrote:
  It seems everyone agrees it is an important method (although I'm not 100%
  sure that the US based people running the fundraiser fully comprehend - I
  am assuming this is the case), but there seems to be some reason why the
  WMF chooses to not make this option easily available. A reason they
 choose
  not to disclose, but to be fuzzy about. I'm very sorry about this, and as
  Liam says, this fits in a trend with the Russian people no longer being
  allowed to donate. Maybe the two are connected, but this is all
  speculation.
 
  I'm sorry to see these steps back from the more open attitude there was a
  few years back. It feels very much that we are, as a community, being fed
  canned press answers. But then, maybe there's a real need for that and
  there's a huge legal threat to making it easy to donate through bank
  transfer that cannot be disclosed...
 
  Best,
  Lodewijk
 
  On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 1:34 AM, Kim Bruning k...@bruning.xs4all.nl
 wrote:
 
  
   To amplify:
  
   Paying (business) taxes in The Netherlands now pretty much requires
   electronic payment to an IBAN Account; a.k.a. it is (now) the standard,
   default, baseline way to make payments at all.
  
   After registering a business, the very next action is to open an (IBAN)
   account. All extant dutch accounts that predate IBAN have been
 converted
   to IBAN. All administration systems (must(!)) support IBAN.
  
   If you want to do business in the Netherlands, you need to support
 IBAN.
  
   Note that many (most?) dutch citizens do not have credit cards or
 paypal
   accounts.
  
   Further, IBAN is standardized throughout the euro-zone.
  
   iDEAL is nice to have and important. IBAN is a minimal baseline
   requirement.
  
   sincerely,
   Kim
  
  
  
   On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 10:42:31PM +0100, Walter Vermeir wrote:
Op 17-11-14 om 20:28 schreef Lodewijk:
   
 you back to the credit card page) or even via regular bank transfer
   (using
 an IBAN) in the Netherlands. The donation page
   
Historically the structure of bank account numbers are very different
from country to country. And making transfers from one bank account
 to
an other bank account, especially internationally, are/where complex
 and
expensive.
   
There is still a lot of room of improvement but nevertheless it has
never been so easy and cheap to do international transfers as now.
   
The IBAN system - International Bank Account Number - is active in a
fair chunk of the globe.
   
   
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Bank_Account_Number#Adoption
   
Inside the EURO-zone , 19 countries, ?? 337 million Europeans ,
 people
can make a bank transfer to an EURO-zone IBAN bank account without
additional expenses.
   
Many more outside the EURO-zone can easy make international payments
 to
an IBAN bank account. That is not free ... but paypal is certainly
 not
free also. The costs are just deducted from your donation.
   
   
The WMF has always has been a huge fan of payment by credit cards.
Understandable, the WMF is founded in the country of the Credit card.
   
But that can make you blind to the fact that other people are used to
total other payment systems.
   
A couple of years ago I discovered that there where still people
 using
cheques in France. That came as a total surprise to me. I remember my
dad using cheques 30 years ago. I never came in to contact with a
 cheque
since then. To my knowledge cheques where long gone. History.
 Extinct.
   
But ... when you have the financial business concept of the WMF -
 when
you need money beg for it - the donation channel should be tailer
 made
for the specific common way of payment used by the person who is so
 good
to be willing to make an donation.
   
Walter
   
   
   
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   https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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 https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

2014-11-27 Thread charles andrès (WMCH)
I just try and I am randomly redirected to the localize page or the WMF page…..




 Le 27 nov. 2014 à 09:20, rupert THURNER rupert.thur...@gmail.com a écrit :
 
 The day before yesterday I was presented a fundraising banner in
 Switzerland which redirects to the donation page of Wmf, contrary the
 chapters page.
 
 Rupert
 On Nov 26, 2014 3:18 PM, Kim Bruning k...@bruning.xs4all.nl wrote:
 
 Just following up,
 
 Has WMNL now received the sought information?
 
 sincerely,
Kim Bruning
 
 
 On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 08:42:01AM +0100, Lodewijk wrote:
 It seems everyone agrees it is an important method (although I'm not 100%
 sure that the US based people running the fundraiser fully comprehend - I
 am assuming this is the case), but there seems to be some reason why the
 WMF chooses to not make this option easily available. A reason they
 choose
 not to disclose, but to be fuzzy about. I'm very sorry about this, and as
 Liam says, this fits in a trend with the Russian people no longer being
 allowed to donate. Maybe the two are connected, but this is all
 speculation.
 
 I'm sorry to see these steps back from the more open attitude there was a
 few years back. It feels very much that we are, as a community, being fed
 canned press answers. But then, maybe there's a real need for that and
 there's a huge legal threat to making it easy to donate through bank
 transfer that cannot be disclosed...
 
 Best,
 Lodewijk
 
 On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 1:34 AM, Kim Bruning k...@bruning.xs4all.nl
 wrote:
 
 
 To amplify:
 
 Paying (business) taxes in The Netherlands now pretty much requires
 electronic payment to an IBAN Account; a.k.a. it is (now) the standard,
 default, baseline way to make payments at all.
 
 After registering a business, the very next action is to open an (IBAN)
 account. All extant dutch accounts that predate IBAN have been
 converted
 to IBAN. All administration systems (must(!)) support IBAN.
 
 If you want to do business in the Netherlands, you need to support
 IBAN.
 
 Note that many (most?) dutch citizens do not have credit cards or
 paypal
 accounts.
 
 Further, IBAN is standardized throughout the euro-zone.
 
 iDEAL is nice to have and important. IBAN is a minimal baseline
 requirement.
 
 sincerely,
Kim
 
 
 
 On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 10:42:31PM +0100, Walter Vermeir wrote:
 Op 17-11-14 om 20:28 schreef Lodewijk:
 
 you back to the credit card page) or even via regular bank transfer
 (using
 an IBAN) in the Netherlands. The donation page
 
 Historically the structure of bank account numbers are very different
 from country to country. And making transfers from one bank account
 to
 an other bank account, especially internationally, are/where complex
 and
 expensive.
 
 There is still a lot of room of improvement but nevertheless it has
 never been so easy and cheap to do international transfers as now.
 
 The IBAN system - International Bank Account Number - is active in a
 fair chunk of the globe.
 
 
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Bank_Account_Number#Adoption
 
 Inside the EURO-zone , 19 countries, ?? 337 million Europeans ,
 people
 can make a bank transfer to an EURO-zone IBAN bank account without
 additional expenses.
 
 Many more outside the EURO-zone can easy make international payments
 to
 an IBAN bank account. That is not free ... but paypal is certainly
 not
 free also. The costs are just deducted from your donation.
 
 
 The WMF has always has been a huge fan of payment by credit cards.
 Understandable, the WMF is founded in the country of the Credit card.
 
 But that can make you blind to the fact that other people are used to
 total other payment systems.
 
 A couple of years ago I discovered that there where still people
 using
 cheques in France. That came as a total surprise to me. I remember my
 dad using cheques 30 years ago. I never came in to contact with a
 cheque
 since then. To my knowledge cheques where long gone. History.
 Extinct.
 
 But ... when you have the financial business concept of the WMF -
 when
 you need money beg for it - the donation channel should be tailer
 made
 for the specific common way of payment used by the person who is so
 good
 to be willing to make an donation.
 
 Walter
 
 
 
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 Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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 https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

2014-11-26 Thread Kim Bruning
Just following up,

Has WMNL now received the sought information?

sincerely,
Kim Bruning


On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 08:42:01AM +0100, Lodewijk wrote:
 It seems everyone agrees it is an important method (although I'm not 100%
 sure that the US based people running the fundraiser fully comprehend - I
 am assuming this is the case), but there seems to be some reason why the
 WMF chooses to not make this option easily available. A reason they choose
 not to disclose, but to be fuzzy about. I'm very sorry about this, and as
 Liam says, this fits in a trend with the Russian people no longer being
 allowed to donate. Maybe the two are connected, but this is all
 speculation.
 
 I'm sorry to see these steps back from the more open attitude there was a
 few years back. It feels very much that we are, as a community, being fed
 canned press answers. But then, maybe there's a real need for that and
 there's a huge legal threat to making it easy to donate through bank
 transfer that cannot be disclosed...
 
 Best,
 Lodewijk
 
 On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 1:34 AM, Kim Bruning k...@bruning.xs4all.nl wrote:
 
 
  To amplify:
 
  Paying (business) taxes in The Netherlands now pretty much requires
  electronic payment to an IBAN Account; a.k.a. it is (now) the standard,
  default, baseline way to make payments at all.
 
  After registering a business, the very next action is to open an (IBAN)
  account. All extant dutch accounts that predate IBAN have been converted
  to IBAN. All administration systems (must(!)) support IBAN.
 
  If you want to do business in the Netherlands, you need to support IBAN.
 
  Note that many (most?) dutch citizens do not have credit cards or paypal
  accounts.
 
  Further, IBAN is standardized throughout the euro-zone.
 
  iDEAL is nice to have and important. IBAN is a minimal baseline
  requirement.
 
  sincerely,
  Kim
 
 
 
  On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 10:42:31PM +0100, Walter Vermeir wrote:
   Op 17-11-14 om 20:28 schreef Lodewijk:
  
you back to the credit card page) or even via regular bank transfer
  (using
an IBAN) in the Netherlands. The donation page
  
   Historically the structure of bank account numbers are very different
   from country to country. And making transfers from one bank account to
   an other bank account, especially internationally, are/where complex and
   expensive.
  
   There is still a lot of room of improvement but nevertheless it has
   never been so easy and cheap to do international transfers as now.
  
   The IBAN system - International Bank Account Number - is active in a
   fair chunk of the globe.
  
   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Bank_Account_Number#Adoption
  
   Inside the EURO-zone , 19 countries, ?? 337 million Europeans , people
   can make a bank transfer to an EURO-zone IBAN bank account without
   additional expenses.
  
   Many more outside the EURO-zone can easy make international payments to
   an IBAN bank account. That is not free ... but paypal is certainly not
   free also. The costs are just deducted from your donation.
  
  
   The WMF has always has been a huge fan of payment by credit cards.
   Understandable, the WMF is founded in the country of the Credit card.
  
   But that can make you blind to the fact that other people are used to
   total other payment systems.
  
   A couple of years ago I discovered that there where still people using
   cheques in France. That came as a total surprise to me. I remember my
   dad using cheques 30 years ago. I never came in to contact with a cheque
   since then. To my knowledge cheques where long gone. History. Extinct.
  
   But ... when you have the financial business concept of the WMF - when
   you need money beg for it - the donation channel should be tailer made
   for the specific common way of payment used by the person who is so good
   to be willing to make an donation.
  
   Walter
  
  
  
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

2014-11-26 Thread Lodewijk
To clarify: I was looking for information from my capacity as a volunteer -
I don't know if WMNL did or did not receive any information whatsoever.

I can only say that I did not receive a satisfying answer - but that should
be no surprise.

Best,
Lodewijk

On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 2:04 PM, Kim Bruning k...@bruning.xs4all.nl wrote:

 Just following up,

 Has WMNL now received the sought information?

 sincerely,
 Kim Bruning


 On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 08:42:01AM +0100, Lodewijk wrote:
  It seems everyone agrees it is an important method (although I'm not 100%
  sure that the US based people running the fundraiser fully comprehend - I
  am assuming this is the case), but there seems to be some reason why the
  WMF chooses to not make this option easily available. A reason they
 choose
  not to disclose, but to be fuzzy about. I'm very sorry about this, and as
  Liam says, this fits in a trend with the Russian people no longer being
  allowed to donate. Maybe the two are connected, but this is all
  speculation.
 
  I'm sorry to see these steps back from the more open attitude there was a
  few years back. It feels very much that we are, as a community, being fed
  canned press answers. But then, maybe there's a real need for that and
  there's a huge legal threat to making it easy to donate through bank
  transfer that cannot be disclosed...
 
  Best,
  Lodewijk
 
  On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 1:34 AM, Kim Bruning k...@bruning.xs4all.nl
 wrote:
 
  
   To amplify:
  
   Paying (business) taxes in The Netherlands now pretty much requires
   electronic payment to an IBAN Account; a.k.a. it is (now) the standard,
   default, baseline way to make payments at all.
  
   After registering a business, the very next action is to open an (IBAN)
   account. All extant dutch accounts that predate IBAN have been
 converted
   to IBAN. All administration systems (must(!)) support IBAN.
  
   If you want to do business in the Netherlands, you need to support
 IBAN.
  
   Note that many (most?) dutch citizens do not have credit cards or
 paypal
   accounts.
  
   Further, IBAN is standardized throughout the euro-zone.
  
   iDEAL is nice to have and important. IBAN is a minimal baseline
   requirement.
  
   sincerely,
   Kim
  
  
  
   On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 10:42:31PM +0100, Walter Vermeir wrote:
Op 17-11-14 om 20:28 schreef Lodewijk:
   
 you back to the credit card page) or even via regular bank transfer
   (using
 an IBAN) in the Netherlands. The donation page
   
Historically the structure of bank account numbers are very different
from country to country. And making transfers from one bank account
 to
an other bank account, especially internationally, are/where complex
 and
expensive.
   
There is still a lot of room of improvement but nevertheless it has
never been so easy and cheap to do international transfers as now.
   
The IBAN system - International Bank Account Number - is active in a
fair chunk of the globe.
   
   
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Bank_Account_Number#Adoption
   
Inside the EURO-zone , 19 countries, ?? 337 million Europeans ,
 people
can make a bank transfer to an EURO-zone IBAN bank account without
additional expenses.
   
Many more outside the EURO-zone can easy make international payments
 to
an IBAN bank account. That is not free ... but paypal is certainly
 not
free also. The costs are just deducted from your donation.
   
   
The WMF has always has been a huge fan of payment by credit cards.
Understandable, the WMF is founded in the country of the Credit card.
   
But that can make you blind to the fact that other people are used to
total other payment systems.
   
A couple of years ago I discovered that there where still people
 using
cheques in France. That came as a total surprise to me. I remember my
dad using cheques 30 years ago. I never came in to contact with a
 cheque
since then. To my knowledge cheques where long gone. History.
 Extinct.
   
But ... when you have the financial business concept of the WMF -
 when
you need money beg for it - the donation channel should be tailer
 made
for the specific common way of payment used by the person who is so
 good
to be willing to make an donation.
   
Walter
   
   
   
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 https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

2014-11-25 Thread Chris Keating
Interestingly I've just received a fundraising email localised to the UK
which doesn't offer any opportunity to give by direct debit. This is the
main form of regular giving in the UK, and the alternative that is offered
(regular gifts via credit card) is generally deprecated as it gives the
donor far less control over their money.

I know the  WMF used to have a solution to handle more payment methods - I
wonder if that's been discontinued for reasons of cost/simplicity?

(The email also doesn't appear to include any of the learning about the
right ask amounts to ask for monthly gifts in the UK from the 2011 campaign
but that might be my fault for not publishing those results ;) )
On 22 Nov 2014 07:42, Lodewijk lodew...@effeietsanders.org wrote:

 It seems everyone agrees it is an important method (although I'm not 100%
 sure that the US based people running the fundraiser fully comprehend - I
 am assuming this is the case), but there seems to be some reason why the
 WMF chooses to not make this option easily available. A reason they choose
 not to disclose, but to be fuzzy about. I'm very sorry about this, and as
 Liam says, this fits in a trend with the Russian people no longer being
 allowed to donate. Maybe the two are connected, but this is all
 speculation.

 I'm sorry to see these steps back from the more open attitude there was a
 few years back. It feels very much that we are, as a community, being fed
 canned press answers. But then, maybe there's a real need for that and
 there's a huge legal threat to making it easy to donate through bank
 transfer that cannot be disclosed...

 Best,
 Lodewijk

 On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 1:34 AM, Kim Bruning k...@bruning.xs4all.nl
 wrote:

 
  To amplify:
 
  Paying (business) taxes in The Netherlands now pretty much requires
  electronic payment to an IBAN Account; a.k.a. it is (now) the standard,
  default, baseline way to make payments at all.
 
  After registering a business, the very next action is to open an (IBAN)
  account. All extant dutch accounts that predate IBAN have been converted
  to IBAN. All administration systems (must(!)) support IBAN.
 
  If you want to do business in the Netherlands, you need to support IBAN.
 
  Note that many (most?) dutch citizens do not have credit cards or paypal
  accounts.
 
  Further, IBAN is standardized throughout the euro-zone.
 
  iDEAL is nice to have and important. IBAN is a minimal baseline
  requirement.
 
  sincerely,
  Kim
 
 
 
  On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 10:42:31PM +0100, Walter Vermeir wrote:
   Op 17-11-14 om 20:28 schreef Lodewijk:
  
you back to the credit card page) or even via regular bank transfer
  (using
an IBAN) in the Netherlands. The donation page
  
   Historically the structure of bank account numbers are very different
   from country to country. And making transfers from one bank account to
   an other bank account, especially internationally, are/where complex
 and
   expensive.
  
   There is still a lot of room of improvement but nevertheless it has
   never been so easy and cheap to do international transfers as now.
  
   The IBAN system - International Bank Account Number - is active in a
   fair chunk of the globe.
  
  
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Bank_Account_Number#Adoption
  
   Inside the EURO-zone , 19 countries, ?? 337 million Europeans , people
   can make a bank transfer to an EURO-zone IBAN bank account without
   additional expenses.
  
   Many more outside the EURO-zone can easy make international payments to
   an IBAN bank account. That is not free ... but paypal is certainly not
   free also. The costs are just deducted from your donation.
  
  
   The WMF has always has been a huge fan of payment by credit cards.
   Understandable, the WMF is founded in the country of the Credit card.
  
   But that can make you blind to the fact that other people are used to
   total other payment systems.
  
   A couple of years ago I discovered that there where still people using
   cheques in France. That came as a total surprise to me. I remember my
   dad using cheques 30 years ago. I never came in to contact with a
 cheque
   since then. To my knowledge cheques where long gone. History. Extinct.
  
   But ... when you have the financial business concept of the WMF - when
   you need money beg for it - the donation channel should be tailer made
   for the specific common way of payment used by the person who is so
 good
   to be willing to make an donation.
  
   Walter
  
  
  
   ___
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

2014-11-21 Thread Kim Bruning

To amplify:

Paying (business) taxes in The Netherlands now pretty much requires
electronic payment to an IBAN Account; a.k.a. it is (now) the standard,
default, baseline way to make payments at all. 

After registering a business, the very next action is to open an (IBAN)
account. All extant dutch accounts that predate IBAN have been converted
to IBAN. All administration systems (must(!)) support IBAN. 

If you want to do business in the Netherlands, you need to support IBAN.

Note that many (most?) dutch citizens do not have credit cards or paypal
accounts.

Further, IBAN is standardized throughout the euro-zone.

iDEAL is nice to have and important. IBAN is a minimal baseline requirement.

sincerely,
Kim



On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 10:42:31PM +0100, Walter Vermeir wrote:
 Op 17-11-14 om 20:28 schreef Lodewijk:
 
  you back to the credit card page) or even via regular bank transfer (using
  an IBAN) in the Netherlands. The donation page
 
 Historically the structure of bank account numbers are very different 
 from country to country. And making transfers from one bank account to 
 an other bank account, especially internationally, are/where complex and 
 expensive.
 
 There is still a lot of room of improvement but nevertheless it has 
 never been so easy and cheap to do international transfers as now.
 
 The IBAN system - International Bank Account Number - is active in a 
 fair chunk of the globe.
 
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Bank_Account_Number#Adoption
 
 Inside the EURO-zone , 19 countries, ?? 337 million Europeans , people 
 can make a bank transfer to an EURO-zone IBAN bank account without 
 additional expenses.
 
 Many more outside the EURO-zone can easy make international payments to 
 an IBAN bank account. That is not free ... but paypal is certainly not 
 free also. The costs are just deducted from your donation.
 
 
 The WMF has always has been a huge fan of payment by credit cards. 
 Understandable, the WMF is founded in the country of the Credit card.
 
 But that can make you blind to the fact that other people are used to 
 total other payment systems.
 
 A couple of years ago I discovered that there where still people using 
 cheques in France. That came as a total surprise to me. I remember my 
 dad using cheques 30 years ago. I never came in to contact with a cheque 
 since then. To my knowledge cheques where long gone. History. Extinct.
 
 But ... when you have the financial business concept of the WMF - when 
 you need money beg for it - the donation channel should be tailer made 
 for the specific common way of payment used by the person who is so good 
 to be willing to make an donation.
 
 Walter
 
 
 
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 https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

2014-11-21 Thread Lodewijk
It seems everyone agrees it is an important method (although I'm not 100%
sure that the US based people running the fundraiser fully comprehend - I
am assuming this is the case), but there seems to be some reason why the
WMF chooses to not make this option easily available. A reason they choose
not to disclose, but to be fuzzy about. I'm very sorry about this, and as
Liam says, this fits in a trend with the Russian people no longer being
allowed to donate. Maybe the two are connected, but this is all
speculation.

I'm sorry to see these steps back from the more open attitude there was a
few years back. It feels very much that we are, as a community, being fed
canned press answers. But then, maybe there's a real need for that and
there's a huge legal threat to making it easy to donate through bank
transfer that cannot be disclosed...

Best,
Lodewijk

On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 1:34 AM, Kim Bruning k...@bruning.xs4all.nl wrote:


 To amplify:

 Paying (business) taxes in The Netherlands now pretty much requires
 electronic payment to an IBAN Account; a.k.a. it is (now) the standard,
 default, baseline way to make payments at all.

 After registering a business, the very next action is to open an (IBAN)
 account. All extant dutch accounts that predate IBAN have been converted
 to IBAN. All administration systems (must(!)) support IBAN.

 If you want to do business in the Netherlands, you need to support IBAN.

 Note that many (most?) dutch citizens do not have credit cards or paypal
 accounts.

 Further, IBAN is standardized throughout the euro-zone.

 iDEAL is nice to have and important. IBAN is a minimal baseline
 requirement.

 sincerely,
 Kim



 On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 10:42:31PM +0100, Walter Vermeir wrote:
  Op 17-11-14 om 20:28 schreef Lodewijk:
 
   you back to the credit card page) or even via regular bank transfer
 (using
   an IBAN) in the Netherlands. The donation page
 
  Historically the structure of bank account numbers are very different
  from country to country. And making transfers from one bank account to
  an other bank account, especially internationally, are/where complex and
  expensive.
 
  There is still a lot of room of improvement but nevertheless it has
  never been so easy and cheap to do international transfers as now.
 
  The IBAN system - International Bank Account Number - is active in a
  fair chunk of the globe.
 
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Bank_Account_Number#Adoption
 
  Inside the EURO-zone , 19 countries, ?? 337 million Europeans , people
  can make a bank transfer to an EURO-zone IBAN bank account without
  additional expenses.
 
  Many more outside the EURO-zone can easy make international payments to
  an IBAN bank account. That is not free ... but paypal is certainly not
  free also. The costs are just deducted from your donation.
 
 
  The WMF has always has been a huge fan of payment by credit cards.
  Understandable, the WMF is founded in the country of the Credit card.
 
  But that can make you blind to the fact that other people are used to
  total other payment systems.
 
  A couple of years ago I discovered that there where still people using
  cheques in France. That came as a total surprise to me. I remember my
  dad using cheques 30 years ago. I never came in to contact with a cheque
  since then. To my knowledge cheques where long gone. History. Extinct.
 
  But ... when you have the financial business concept of the WMF - when
  you need money beg for it - the donation channel should be tailer made
  for the specific common way of payment used by the person who is so good
  to be willing to make an donation.
 
  Walter
 
 
 
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[Wikimedia-l] Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

2014-11-17 Thread Lodewijk
A while back now, the chapters were no longer allowed to fundraise, because
the Wikimedia Foundation argued they would be better able to do this. At
the time, this sounded somewhat reasonable. However, since then, there have
been some disturbing developments - at least for Dutch donors.

No longer it is possible to pay electronically (iDEAL, one of the most
common methods is no longer supported - 'electronic banking' simply refers
you back to the credit card page) or even via regular bank transfer (using
an IBAN) in the Netherlands. The donation page
https://donate.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:FundraiserLandingPagecountry=NLuselang=enutm_medium=spontaneousutm_source=fr-redirutm_campaign=spontaneous
only
allows credit card and paypal, and the 'other ways to give' simply sends
you to the helpdesk if you want to make a bank transfer payment.

What is the reasoning behind this? Have bank transfers become a legal
swamp? Are there statistics suggesting that this method was no longer
required by donors? Did the European bank account somehow get temporarily
suspended?

If it has become so hard to donate, maybe it makes more sense to send the
donors to the local chapter pages where they can actually donate in the
local suitable methods (in this case, Wikimedia Netherlands offers both
iDEAL and IBAN
http://www.wikimedia.nl/pagina/doneren-aan-wikimedia-nederland).

One of the Dutch OTRS team members asked for elaboration, but didn't quite
get a satisfying answer. I hope this is a temporary situation, and that
this threshold will be removed again. It would be sad if we go through all
kind of trouble to enable long tail methods like bitcoin, but skip bank
transfer...

Best,

Lodewijk
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

2014-11-17 Thread Federico Leva (Nemo)
Moreover, because fundraising reports are now so stingy, we can't even 
know the (per-country) effects of such decisions (cc fundraiser@), hence 
public accountability is impossible.
* 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Fundraising/2013-14_Reportdiff=10307365oldid=10265366
* 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Fundraising_2012/Report#Totals_by_country


Nemo

Lodewijk, 17/11/2014 20:28:

A while back now, the chapters were no longer allowed to fundraise, because
the Wikimedia Foundation argued they would be better able to do this. At
the time, this sounded somewhat reasonable. However, since then, there have
been some disturbing developments - at least for Dutch donors.

No longer it is possible to pay electronically (iDEAL, one of the most
common methods is no longer supported - 'electronic banking' simply refers
you back to the credit card page) or even via regular bank transfer (using
an IBAN) in the Netherlands. The donation page
https://donate.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:FundraiserLandingPagecountry=NLuselang=enutm_medium=spontaneousutm_source=fr-redirutm_campaign=spontaneous
only
allows credit card and paypal, and the 'other ways to give' simply sends
you to the helpdesk if you want to make a bank transfer payment.

What is the reasoning behind this? Have bank transfers become a legal
swamp? Are there statistics suggesting that this method was no longer
required by donors? Did the European bank account somehow get temporarily
suspended?

If it has become so hard to donate, maybe it makes more sense to send the
donors to the local chapter pages where they can actually donate in the
local suitable methods (in this case, Wikimedia Netherlands offers both
iDEAL and IBAN
http://www.wikimedia.nl/pagina/doneren-aan-wikimedia-nederland).

One of the Dutch OTRS team members asked for elaboration, but didn't quite
get a satisfying answer. I hope this is a temporary situation, and that
this threshold will be removed again. It would be sad if we go through all
kind of trouble to enable long tail methods like bitcoin, but skip bank
transfer...

Best,


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

2014-11-17 Thread Patricia Pena
Hi Lodewijk,

Currently IDEAL is temporarily down on our pages (it went into maintenance
mode after our annual campaign), but should be back up soon :)  We know
the importance of this method for Dutch donors and have supported this
option since we started fundraising in the NL. We also support offline bank
transfer (IBAN) and donors can get the account number with our Donor
Services team.

We had an extremely successful Fundraising campaign this year, and there
will be some great mobile optimization coming up in the next few months,
which will allow mobile donors to complete their donations in a much faster
and easier way.

Thanks!
Pats

On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 11:28 AM, Lodewijk lodew...@effeietsanders.org
wrote:

 A while back now, the chapters were no longer allowed to fundraise, because
 the Wikimedia Foundation argued they would be better able to do this. At
 the time, this sounded somewhat reasonable. However, since then, there have
 been some disturbing developments - at least for Dutch donors.

 No longer it is possible to pay electronically (iDEAL, one of the most
 common methods is no longer supported - 'electronic banking' simply refers
 you back to the credit card page) or even via regular bank transfer (using
 an IBAN) in the Netherlands. The donation page
 
 https://donate.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:FundraiserLandingPagecountry=NLuselang=enutm_medium=spontaneousutm_source=fr-redirutm_campaign=spontaneous
 
 only
 allows credit card and paypal, and the 'other ways to give' simply sends
 you to the helpdesk if you want to make a bank transfer payment.

 What is the reasoning behind this? Have bank transfers become a legal
 swamp? Are there statistics suggesting that this method was no longer
 required by donors? Did the European bank account somehow get temporarily
 suspended?

 If it has become so hard to donate, maybe it makes more sense to send the
 donors to the local chapter pages where they can actually donate in the
 local suitable methods (in this case, Wikimedia Netherlands offers both
 iDEAL and IBAN
 http://www.wikimedia.nl/pagina/doneren-aan-wikimedia-nederland).

 One of the Dutch OTRS team members asked for elaboration, but didn't quite
 get a satisfying answer. I hope this is a temporary situation, and that
 this threshold will be removed again. It would be sad if we go through all
 kind of trouble to enable long tail methods like bitcoin, but skip bank
 transfer...

 Best,

 Lodewijk
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office +1 (415) 839 6885 x6764
cell:   +1 (415) 816 3349
fax: +1 (415) 284 9511
pp...@wikimedia.org

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sum of all knowledge. That's our commitment. Donate.
https://donate.wikimedia.org/*
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

2014-11-17 Thread Lodewijk
Hi Patricia,

Thanks for telling that the iDEAL will be back soon. I don't quite
understand from your answer why you add the increased hurdle of emailing
the team for the IBAN though. Am I overlooking something?

Best,
Lodewijk

On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 10:06 PM, Patricia Pena pp...@wikimedia.org wrote:

 Hi Lodewijk,

 Currently IDEAL is temporarily down on our pages (it went into maintenance
 mode after our annual campaign), but should be back up soon :)  We know
 the importance of this method for Dutch donors and have supported this
 option since we started fundraising in the NL. We also support offline bank
 transfer (IBAN) and donors can get the account number with our Donor
 Services team.

 We had an extremely successful Fundraising campaign this year, and there
 will be some great mobile optimization coming up in the next few months,
 which will allow mobile donors to complete their donations in a much faster
 and easier way.

 Thanks!
 Pats

 On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 11:28 AM, Lodewijk lodew...@effeietsanders.org
 wrote:

  A while back now, the chapters were no longer allowed to fundraise,
 because
  the Wikimedia Foundation argued they would be better able to do this. At
  the time, this sounded somewhat reasonable. However, since then, there
 have
  been some disturbing developments - at least for Dutch donors.
 
  No longer it is possible to pay electronically (iDEAL, one of the most
  common methods is no longer supported - 'electronic banking' simply
 refers
  you back to the credit card page) or even via regular bank transfer
 (using
  an IBAN) in the Netherlands. The donation page
  
 
 https://donate.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:FundraiserLandingPagecountry=NLuselang=enutm_medium=spontaneousutm_source=fr-redirutm_campaign=spontaneous
  
  only
  allows credit card and paypal, and the 'other ways to give' simply sends
  you to the helpdesk if you want to make a bank transfer payment.
 
  What is the reasoning behind this? Have bank transfers become a legal
  swamp? Are there statistics suggesting that this method was no longer
  required by donors? Did the European bank account somehow get temporarily
  suspended?
 
  If it has become so hard to donate, maybe it makes more sense to send the
  donors to the local chapter pages where they can actually donate in the
  local suitable methods (in this case, Wikimedia Netherlands offers both
  iDEAL and IBAN
  http://www.wikimedia.nl/pagina/doneren-aan-wikimedia-nederland).
 
  One of the Dutch OTRS team members asked for elaboration, but didn't
 quite
  get a satisfying answer. I hope this is a temporary situation, and that
  this threshold will be removed again. It would be sad if we go through
 all
  kind of trouble to enable long tail methods like bitcoin, but skip bank
  transfer...
 
  Best,
 
  Lodewijk
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 --

 Pats Pena | Sr. Manager, Global Operations
 Wikimedia Foundation
 office +1 (415) 839 6885 x6764
 cell:   +1 (415) 816 3349
 fax: +1 (415) 284 9511
 pp...@wikimedia.org

 *Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the
 sum of all knowledge. That's our commitment. Donate.
 https://donate.wikimedia.org/*
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

2014-11-17 Thread Walter Vermeir

Op 17-11-14 om 20:28 schreef Lodewijk:


you back to the credit card page) or even via regular bank transfer (using
an IBAN) in the Netherlands. The donation page


Historically the structure of bank account numbers are very different 
from country to country. And making transfers from one bank account to 
an other bank account, especially internationally, are/where complex and 
expensive.


There is still a lot of room of improvement but nevertheless it has 
never been so easy and cheap to do international transfers as now.


The IBAN system - International Bank Account Number - is active in a 
fair chunk of the globe.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Bank_Account_Number#Adoption

Inside the EURO-zone , 19 countries, ± 337 million Europeans , people 
can make a bank transfer to an EURO-zone IBAN bank account without 
additional expenses.


Many more outside the EURO-zone can easy make international payments to 
an IBAN bank account. That is not free ... but paypal is certainly not 
free also. The costs are just deducted from your donation.



The WMF has always has been a huge fan of payment by credit cards. 
Understandable, the WMF is founded in the country of the Credit card.


But that can make you blind to the fact that other people are used to 
total other payment systems.


A couple of years ago I discovered that there where still people using 
cheques in France. That came as a total surprise to me. I remember my 
dad using cheques 30 years ago. I never came in to contact with a cheque 
since then. To my knowledge cheques where long gone. History. Extinct.


But ... when you have the financial business concept of the WMF - when 
you need money beg for it - the donation channel should be tailer made 
for the specific common way of payment used by the person who is so good 
to be willing to make an donation.


Walter



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[Wikimedia-l] Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

2014-11-17 Thread Liam Wyatt
This strikes me as yet another example of a WMF department forgetting
to inform relevant stakeholders as soon as is appropriate, when decisions
are made...

In just the last few days, on this mailing list alone, there have been
controversies on:
- not telling chapters' treasurers that a team had been hired and a
financial auditing process initiated (the Finance Fellows), until after it
had already begun.
- Not informing the Russians that their country's donations were no longer
accepted, leaving them to fend off angry media/donors.
- Not informing the Dutch that donations in their country's most popular
online money-transfer system was being temporarily stopped.

None of these things needed to be controversial or a problem if they'd been
explained to the relevant people up-front.
None of them required advanced notice if that was not possible for
operational reasons (although it would have been nice).
All of them are the WMF's preogative to make those decisions.

But, crucially, ALL of them have people in the Wikimedia movement who are
affected by the decision. According to the complaints raised on this list,
None of those affected people were informed as soon as reasonably possible.
Furthermore their initial, private, enquiries produced
apparently-unsatisfactory answers, leading to them feeling forced to raise
their concerns here.

All of this chips-away at community good-will, makes the WMF feel
under-siege (and I do acknowledge my own contribution to that feeling by
this email, for which I apologise), and creates a disjointed public-face
when press/donors/readers ask community members what's happening with
xyz? and the community-member forced to reply this is the first I've
heard about it.

To help avoid similar things happening in the future, can I propose that
any time a public-facing decision is being made by a WMF team, the question
who in the community is likely to be affected by this decision? be asked
as a standard procedure. Then take the time to proactively inform those
people. (Some WMF teams do this really well already, I want
to acknowledge!) In the examples above that would be the treasurers' list,
the Russian media contacts, and the Dutch OTRS team. Ideally those people
could be involved/consulted in the decision itself (but that's not always
possible) and they will be able to help respond to the issue in the
appropriate way.
We're all on the same team...


-- 
wittylama.com
Peace, love  metadata
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